Taking Licks: The Maturity of Leadership

Hey, this is Tim, and welcome to the Student Life Podcast, where we explore the everyday challenges and big questions of life through a biblical lens while navigating the realities of a secular world. Enjoy. Yo, what up? It's Tim Pratt Jr., and I do have another one for you today that we're going to just dive right into. Uh, hold on, let me back up. Uh, so I did have some bonus content package called Holding Tension Without Losing Compassion. I believe that just what I'm seeing for a very long time— of course, a lot of us, it's been heightened lately— that we don't know how to disagree without division anymore. Not all of us, but a lot of us are living in that vein, and we cherry-pick verses to make our argument. Well, I mean, but we have the gospel, it's the gospel of that. But I just believe we should preach the whole counsel. And living attention of the text. Um, but I will be addressing it soon, um, very soon. But right now I'm just going to keep praying, keep fleshing some things out so I can speak to it the way I believe God is leading me, to make sure that I'm not biased or coming from a posture of anger or frustration. Uh, some things that need to be checked in me before, before I record and release that episode. Um, but my prayers to you, like I said, it's very rough in today's time with just extremist views. But God is faithful, man. Just keep digging in your word, keep asking God to show you, you first in the word, and just keep modeling Christ. So that being said, uh, this episode actually— I was, uh, it's called The Maturity of Leadership. The Maturity of Leadership. Matter of fact, let's call it Taking Licks: The Maturity of Leadership. So I've said this at my home local church, I've said it at— I want to call it like my other home local church. Uh, matter of fact, I was down with Dr. Phil and Pastor Allen Allen, Lady Allen, uh, at the— doing some leadership things this past Wednesday. Yeah, it's past Wednesday, um, yesterday matter of fact. And, um It was really, really good. Like, I— it was really good, um, just to— for one, my partner Alexa Dirkfield in it, um, that I was partnering with in a leadership dynamic, and just seeing the people and the questions and things of that nature. Uh, but it was one thing I've kind of been sharing a lot, um, and it's through this lens of— just to jump right into it, I don't have necessarily a foundational verse but we probably will quote some. Um, but I was— so I have a 16-year-old, a 13-year-old, and soon-to-be 4-year-old. My daughter's 3. And I was just looking one day where, like, my boys, they, they play their PS5, they're on 2K a lot and things of that. And I was just like thinking, you know, like sometimes they can go and they can irritate their sister, and depending on what mood she in— she's 3 Um, she'll come in and tell Mommy and Daddy, and I don't say things like, I don't want to play with Cam or DJ anymore, I don't want to play with DJ Cam, or DJ Cam mean, or like, I don't like Cam, I don't like DJ. So it's just all this type of stuff, and you have to train or you have to work with her. But as I was just looking at that, I was like, imagine if she went in a room and kind of did something and irritated them, and they came in with, like, seriously came in with a posture, I don't like Navy Anymore, Mom. I don't want to play with Navy. And with me looking at their age, it would really catch me off guard, and I would really think something was probably wrong with them, uh, being 16 and 13, doing it to their little sister, not having the capacity to recognize that she is a toddler. And that's where I want to park it today. You, you probably already know where I'm going with this. That's, that's where I want to park it in leadership, and this is primarily through a faith lens. Uh, but I would really look at them like, so you are— you, you want to reject your sister because she irritates you, but you recognize that she's a toddler, so you're going to act the way that she's act. And sometimes I just— I believe that we get so close, like, in a spiritual sense, that we don't recognize the level of maturity of the people that we were called to lead, the people that were called to shepherd, or whether we're under shepherd or anything like that. We lose sight. We can't see that, man, maybe they're just an infant, maybe they're a toddler in the faith, maybe they're, um, a teenager, uh, like, I don't, I don't know, like just a young kid or whatever, childlike faith in, in the faith, I mean. And so with that ability— let me back up. Thank you, thank you, Holy Spirit. I believe that it's dangerous for us to strive to get into leadership roles, especially just title-driven leadership, people, but leadership roles, and not embrace the level of maturity that needs to go with it so we can occupy that seat the way God desires us to occupy it. If that makes sense. Because like one of the things I look at that we have to understand is that— and I'm preaching to myself, teaching to myself, whatever you want to call it— so I'm— I listen, it's bust, it busts me up first. But, but not everything deserves a reaction. Like not everything deserves a reaction. Let's start there. Because Jesus knew when to take the hit and he knew when to keep moving. Like he knew when it been— he knew when to be confrontational and then he knew when to just like, okay, I'm gonna take this. And so one of the things I want to ask is, as we just— as we think about this episode and navigate through this, uh, what's— I like this, um, quote. I can't remember, but Michael Hyatt, some years ago when I used to really like love when he used to have his podcast, and I can't even think the name of the podcast, it's been so long ago, man, like over 10 years ago, I think. But he would say, uh, between the stimulus put a pause between the stimulus and the response, because it's that pause is where we can display basically our humanity. I might be butchering the quote, but it was something like that. I should have looked it up and fleshed it out, but it literally just came to me in real time. Um, and so I would say to that, to kind of flesh it out, it's like leadership maturity isn't just about how much we know, it's about how much we can handle when we get hit. Now Again, I'm not saying take everything. Like, that is between how you believe, your convictions, and how God is leading you and all of that. What do you believe you submitted to and things of that nature. But I will say this: maturing as a leader means learning the difference between what to absorb and what to address. Like, for real, like, maturing as a leader is learning the difference between knowing what to absorb and what to address. Like, we— it— like, we are navigating, all right, should I take this and just eat it and model Christ, or is this a moment that I need to confront and rise up? Because there are moments that we have to confront and rise up. Just can't take everything. Like, there's times that correction needs to be brought forward. You have to tell people the truth. You have to have the tough conversations. So I don't want to separate the two. We have to learn to do both. And again, just like I was kind of saying earlier, a lot of us live in extremes and we can fall into these traps where we just address everything, like everything. And then it's the type that we just don't address nothing, like we don't address anything. And so, but in this reality, in this space, if my daughter right now walked in here and started to kind of talk and say, "Nanny boo boo," you know, like something like that of that nature, um, right in the midst of recording, I would be like, okay, I'll be probably frustrated. I'm not even gonna lie to you, uh, especially I'm in the flow. But I'll probably just stop it, edit it out, talk with her, see what she needs and things like that. But say if it's again my kids, my older boys getting here and do that, like, bro, like, really, really? So I'm assessing like just based on my expectation And what I'm saying is, like, now in the faith, I'm— when, when I'm dealing with certain people, okay, like, if certain people that I feel like had that level of maturity, I probably would lean in to have, like, a very confrontational, um, healthy— because all confrontation isn't bad— but, like, I would stop, like, see what's going on with my boys, because this is very weird for you to be acting like that based on your age and your level of maturity. I'm gonna take a whole different approach with my daughter. And so for the leaders that's always kind of caught up, this is who I am, everybody gotta rise up to my standard, you gonna get it how I give it to you, all this type of stuff, I would challenge you in this space and say, again, look at the level of maturity of the person and why or why not, why they're in leadership. Like, that's a whole nother topic, but I'm just saying in the vein of this episode, I would challenge you there. I would challenge myself there and say, okay, Based on who I believe God is, has wired me and continued to process me, to continue to prune me, and based on the person that's front of me, in front of me, how do I lead through that? How? Because the reality of it is, is that there are things that we just have to take and we have to coach, we have to do some hand-holding, we have to do development and things of this, because if we lead long enough we are going to take hits. That's all I'm trying to say. If we lead long enough, we're going to take hits. We're going to be misunderstood. We're going to be criticized. We're going to be criticized, and we're going to be living up under a whole lot of unfair assumptions. And what I have learned, what I've even seen in myself and a lot of others through reading, through observation, especially being a coach and a facilitator— immature leaders react, mature leaders respond. That, that is the heart, what I've seen in everything. Immature leaders always just react. They react, react, react. They don't think. They're just highly reactive. But very mature leaders, like, most of the time— and I'm not saying sometimes we, we don't get it wrong, like, I found myself apologizing and making it right— I believe that is maturity when I've seen leaders do that. But a lot of times I see leaders just kind of take a step back they eat some things, and then they lean in and they respond. Like, prime example, look at Jesus. Jesus was falsely accused, he was mocked, he was betrayed, but he didn't let the offense derail his mission from God. He never took his eyes off what God told him. Do we do that? No, we want to get in and address and talk about our haters and all this type of stuff. If I see one more message in leadership talk about haters and this is— like, okay, I'mma stop. But they have their place, but sometimes it can be overkill. But the reality of it is, is that he never let it derail him from what God called him to do. Like, he never did. Even to the point, one of, one of the popular, uh, verses that I like to quote, uh, and I believe is in context of this episode, is, Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. While they're driving nails, while they're beating him and flogging all these type of things, he's literally taking it. He's literally taking the licks. So like, are we modeling Jesus? Are we modeling him? Do we do that? Do we do that? And so another thing is, um, how you might be saying, okay, Tim, I hear you, uh, how do I know when to take the lick? How do I know when to take it? Or how do I know when to address it? Okay, let's be clear. Like I just said, Jesus did not ignore everything. He did not ignore everything. And probably a lot of you already know where I'm going with, with one of the most quoted passages of scripture. Jesus flipped tables and he whooped them up out of there. He whipped them up out of there. Like, so again, maturity isn't silence. It's not like— it's a lot of things that we as leaders need to be speaking up about. Regardless of the backlash that we might get. Like, we, we can't always play the middle. Like, no, it's like, no, I have to make a decision. Right is right, wrong is wrong. And so there are things that have to be addressed. So again, maturity isn't silence, it's discernment. Maturity is discerning. It's not always black and white. Yes, there's a lot of gray areas, but there are some things that— no, I am going to take a stand on this. I might wait and I might need to process some things because we do live in an era now where like there's no wisdom. We are just so quick— who, who's first to defend? Especially with AI and all this type of stuff now, it's just a lot of whatever. But maturity is discernment. Like, I think I said this in one episode, uh, never address something when you're triggered as a leader. Never, never address something when you are triggered. Process that, deal with that trigger, deal with that trigger, and wait till you can, uh, deal with it from a posture of, um, you know, you're just a lot more calm and you can respond. Like, never, never, never deal with anything when you're triggered, because I'm telling you, 9 times out of 10, it's going to go south. Because this is the thing: Jesus took insults on the cross, like he did. We just— we talked about that. But he definitely confronted hypocrisy in the temple, like straight up. We, we know that Paul, one of my favorite people to study in the Bible— I mean, it's a lot of people I love in the Bible— Paul, he absorbed imprisonment. We can find the verses, a lot of us can quote, uh, his things. But if you think that man didn't confront false teaching, if you wouldn't think he wasn't all over the false teaching and calling stuff out and calling people out that was preaching another gospel, He was all over it. So some licks, some licks we take because I do believe they're a part of our development and they shape us. And then there's some things that we have to lean into and say, okay, again, it's time to speak up. So how do we bring all of this in together? From my perspective, I would say, uh, just really start on myself. It's all about posture. Like, I'm, I'm real big on heart posture, and I, I, and I'm not saying I coined the phrase or anything like that, I just know that God gave me a series some years ago, um, and it's just something that, that stuck with me. And I really believe a lot of things are about just posture and how do we posture ourselves. And so for me, I used to think like taking licks was a weakness. Like, I'm like, man, that's— I, I can't— I'm not saying I'm no, uh, as my, uh, a lot of some of the older people say, I'm no big bad wolf or nobody can't get me or anything, but I like, you got to put me down. I know that. And like, the reality of it is, is that I used to think that it was, it was a weakness. I'm like, bro, first off, who you talking to? Like, oh bro, I really talk bad to you. Like, I mean, really, really bad to you. Um, but also too, like, who am I modeling? So this is the tension that I wrestle with. Um, and so I've had to learn that I've always I strive to show great restraint. There are some things that, that can be said to me that like they catch me off guard and I'm like, all right, bro, like, like, do you want to talk to the Tim that like really almost didn't see his son until he was like 10 years old? First son, you know, whatever, long story. Um, because he was about to go that way. And again, I'm not saying I can't be touched or anything like that nature. We've all— I never— I've never claimed to be nothing that I, you know, have done. So, but at the same time, I know I've tried things, I've tried to live a lifestyle that I'm just— I thank God he, he didn't let me go down that road. Um, but for nevertheless, it's like what I'm trying to say is that I've had to show restraint because at the end of the day, especially being a man, and I don't know what it is, and there's a lot of things that we have to die to, but I'm like Okay, man, like, don't, don't try to pull my man card. Like, talk to me like a man, talk to me like an adult. And some of you might be saying, well, uh, you know, but I'm saying like an example in that I'm not saying it gives us the right to talk to kids any kind of way, but like an example I use is if my father or father-in-law come over here and they're kind of chastising, uh, my kids for whatever reasons, or I'm over their house Um, the way that they might handle my kids, they can't handle me. I'm 35 years old. Like, that's just reality. Now, I respect my parents, I respect my in-laws, I respect, like, all my elders, but at the end of the day, there still comes, like, especially if I'm showing it, I'm not a 10-year-old that you can just navigate and show more like a very, very dominant, authoritative approach. And stuff. I hope that makes sense. So I'm not saying I'm advocating for talking to kids reckless, because we should be talking to our kids as well. But I'm just trying to say, like, in tone sometimes, like, if I'm getting on my, my kids, I'm not going to get on an adult like that. Like, let's just be straight up. That don't mean I'm cussing my kids out or anything like that, but I'm gonna take a different posture. So again, that was, that was kind of long-winded there, but just taking licks, it isn't weaknesses, it's restraint. Because like the reality of it— and I like this, I think I've seen somebody said that anybody can clap back but few can stand back. Now that's not me, I've seen it on Facebook somewhere. Anyone, anyone can clap back but few can stand back. I want to just drop that in here. Um, so anywho, maturity means staying our ground— staying— maturity means staying grounded, staying grounded in what God has called us to do. Like, we cannot let our pride speak to us and get us to react in a way that God didn't. Let me back up. Thank you, Holy Spirit. We cannot allow our pride and our flesh to propel us to react when God desires, desires to respond through the power of the Holy Spirit, is submitting it to him. And so, um, I would just say, as you just think in your leadership, one of the things I would challenge too is that we, we often gossip about the people that we're assigned to Like, we do. When you really think about it, we, we typically as leaders gossip about the people that we're assigned to. We gossip about the people that we are supposed to help mature in the body of Christ. And, and the more I study my Bible, the more God busts me up through his word and through the power of the Holy Spirit. I don't understand that. I really don't. And sometimes I just was like, man, you know, like, God Maybe sometimes in a lot of different local churches, in a lot of different places, maybe he is protecting people from your ministry per se, our ministry per se, because he doesn't want to introduce them to the immature version of us that we don't want to confront. Just maybe, maybe. I know we saved and we sanctified and we say all the right things, but just maybe there are areas that are very immature, and God is saying, ah, no, I'm not gonna let them meet this version of you because you got to understand, like, I know you, and there are areas that I desire to confront that you won't do. There are areas I want to heal that you won't allow me, and so I'm gonna hold them at bay or maybe send them somewhere else. I, I'm just saying, I, I don't know if God is saying that per se, but what if Because again, let's back it up. Why do we gossip about people that we are assigned to? To lead, to help mature, to help grow in the faith, to have patience with, to take time with. We have to cut that out. Again, going back to the example, if my two boys walk in my daughter room and frustrate her for whatever reason, they do something trying to play with her, she come in here tattletaling. I get it. I'mma walk with her, talk with her, help her process this out because she's 3 going on 4. If she go in they room and she kind of irritate them and they come in the room acting like her, we have a problem. I'mma talk to them, but it's going to be very weird. So spiritually, I have to know where people are. If I'm dealing with an infant, I can't treat them like someone that's 40 or 45. Adult. I have to take a whole different approach. So now if I understand in the natural sense, why is it so hard for me to understand in the spiritual sense? Um, so last one is, um, when we take hits the right way, I believe we gain and gain influence. I have seen some people model great restraint. They still— matter of fact, Jason Wilson, um, just in his latest interviews, and whenever you probably seen the Cam Newton interview and not just now, like, I see Jason Wilson in a lot of stuff, and not just him, but just see Max, like, just great leaders and things of that nature. The restraint that they show, like, the way they take hits, but they still kind of check the person, but it's in a loving way. They gain so much influence with me, especially over time when I see this model. Like, I do, like, it, it just I'm like, wow, man, you know that that's God. You know that that's God working through them because that's impossible. And most of the time, these people, they, they ain't no punk, man. Like, straight up, they're not. And so, but it's just the restraint and the love and the posture that they just— they just exude Jesus. Like, that's all you see. You just, you end up— it's like a mirror is being pointed at you just through their life, and they haven't even said a word, just in how they're demonstrating it. And so that's something, um, that I believe that we all should look at when we think about our leadership and things of the— in that capacity. Uh, but just some, just some practical wisdom, uh, 3 things that I would say. Uh, don't take everything personal. That, that's what I'm learning, uh, just not to take everything personal. I can— I used to be a very— I'm not gonna say sensitive so much, but I would take things very, very personal, per se. And I, I could hold a grudge. I will start playing chess, not checkers, as they say. And I would start moving in a very strategic direction. But God has delivered me from that. I don't, I don't like— things might hurt, but man, I process them either through talking to my wife, talking to my pastor, or pastoral team, things that nature. Of course, my dad, my father-in-law, uh, and then my counselor, coach. Like, I have a community of people that I can go to and just unload on, and they'll listen to me, and then they quickly like, okay, let me, let me point you to Jesus, because they know I can take it. They know I sometimes just need to vent, but then it's— and they hear me, and then it's timing. It's just, it's timing. Like, I do the same thing with people. So we are— what I'm trying to say is that we all need a team of people, people that can handle us. And it's like, okay, like, let me listen to them and let me help, you know, be the hands and feet of Jesus. In this case, uh, we want to pause before responding. Like, always strive to pause before responding, because I typically try to— I strive to have a continuous posture of praying, but definitely I'm like, okay, Lord, help me, let me take a step back. My leader, a matter of fact, where I work Um, some things were going on. It was just— it was a tough week, uh, like anything, just high stressful moments in these times. And I was like, okay, let me pray, let me go on a walk. And because I always want to react, I strive. And if I do miss the mark, I'm quick to repent and I'm quick to apologize. I seek out the people and I say, hey, like, something is off with me. I am highly reactive. I'm not responding the way I typically do. And I hate— to me, like, that's, that's what you're gonna get. You're gonna get a full authentic, uh, authentic Tim. And I'm about— I'm butchering that word. Um, it's just my authenticity. Like, that's what I'm striving to be, an authentic version of myself. There we go. I was about to butcher it. I'm not even gonna— I'm not like— I'm not even gonna edit this, like, straight up. But, uh, but I'm striving to just respond, not react. I— it's just a posture. And so then is, um, the last one I would say, and I'm actually reading this book called Blind Spot, and it's, it's really busting me up because it's a leadership book dealing with just checking our blind spots essentially, uh, but address what threatens us. Like, we have to, we have to address what threatens us. And what I mean by that, what threatens us in the context of what God desires for us. So If we aren't addressing the threats to the mission that God gave us, man, not our ego— I'm not talking about the ego— I'm talking about addressing what threatens the mission that God gave us in our leadership. We, we have to deal with those things. We really do. I just believe that if we don't learn how to know what to take and what's— when to confront Because again, like I said earlier, if we're always taking things, then that's not good. If we're always confronting things, that's not good. It's balance. It's definitely a balanced approach. So I would lean in and say, truthfully, like, every leader takes licks. The question that we are striving to answer in this episode is, will you take them? Let me back up, okay? Will they make you bitter, or will they make you better? That's good, I like that. Will they make you bitter, or will they make you better as a leader when you take them? Because Jesus, again, he modeled maturity in everything, everything he did from a posture of love. Even when he flipped the tables and whipped them about of there, it was from a place of love. It— yes, there's a righteous anger that, I mean, God reserved. Like, yes, I get all of that. But what I'm saying is that everything Jesus did was motivated by love. And so Jesus modeled maturity. And so now the question kind of comes back in our leadership, and this is what I'm always asking myself, and I— Lord knows I don't— I, I miss the mark more than I would like to admit, but who are we modeling? Because every single time I'm modeling this version of Tim Pratt Jr. that's in the flesh, or I'm modeling this version of Tim Pratt Jr. that's submitted to Jesus, essentially they see Jesus. I'm not Jesus per se, let's be clear, but they, they see that I'm striving to be Christlike because Jesus always modeled maturity over choosing pride. He did. And so on that note, man, um, because I'm not going to ramble here, like, if you just hear my heart in this episode as a leader, uh, whether you are a senior pastor or associate, number two, whether you're in the secular and a person of faith, uh, I would just pause and ask, like, man, how am I postured? Am I, am I postured to lead people into a level of maturity and development that's needed for them to be great in all areas of life, like the multi-facets of life? Okay, let me back up because we can't be probably great at everything, but being greater, being more mature in all areas of life is what I should say. Are we doing that? Uh, can, can we take some things? Can we eat some things? Can we? Because if we can't, I would say the higher that we, collectively speaking, rise up, the more maturity that we are going to need. The more influence that we gain, the more maturity that we're going to need in those areas, man. Because as they say, life be lifin' and people be peoplin'. Like, people be peoplin'. So, um, on that note, um, I would just encourage you and pray and say, just get in the word and get developed, uh, get a fasting life and just strive to mature in the things of the Lord, man, so you can point people to Jesus Christ. And as Paul said, you know, I believe it was in 1 Corinthians 9, uh, don't destroy your testimony. Of course, he wasn't talking about losing salvation But I, I can't— I mean, I can, I can look it up right now, but I'm not, uh, but it's in the past description when he's talking about becoming all things. And I might do episode on that again, uh, but now we know he wasn't talking about sin, but he didn't want to disqualify himself. And so what I'm saying is that, man, strive to really discipline yourself through the power of God, submitting to the word of God, resisting the enemy, getting around like-minded people, other believers, other people that can call you up and as well as on the same page as you, so you can have capacity. And of course, the Holy Spirit, so you can have capacity to reach those that God has assigned you to. Because again, in this leadership space, as you lead from here on out, you cannot keep gossiping about the people that God chose you to lead and help develop and mature to look more like him. So be blessed, man. I love you all. I pray this episode touches you, uh, and just again, if, if it is— if this content is blessing you, especially this one, if you know a lot of people in church and leadership, uh, share it with them. Like, just, I'm asking, share it with them. Share with your leadership team, uh, and hey, keep praying for them. Have a conversation about it. Get in the word of God and help each other see each other through the power of God. Amen. Love you all. Thanks for joining me today on the Student Life Podcast. And remember, learning never stops and wisdom grows as we seek truth in both scripture and life. And until next time, keep walking faithfully and thinking deeply. Be blessed.