2025 Content Trends, Hottest IG Growth Hacks, & Insider Secrets w/ Instagram Expert Brock Johnson

What's up, you guys? Welcome back to the podcast. Today's episode is such a treat. We have Brock Johnson back on the show. If you guys don't already follow Brock, he is an Instagram expert. He's a speaker, he's a podcast host, he's an entrepreneur, he does all the things, and he's here to spill the tea for all of us content creators. He is dropping his insider tips on viral strategies, Instagram growth hacks, the TikTok rumors, and so much more. This entire episode is a masterclass on how you can ahead of the game with your content for 2025. So we are going to talk about Brock's STD story strategy. Don't worry, it is not what it sounds like. How to stay engaged with your community while posting less, what you should be doing and how you can best utilize stories. And it's not the same way that we've always used Instagram stories before. Are live videos in or out for 2025? Some of the emerging content trends that he sees performing really well this year on social media. And we're going to answer the question if those talking head videos that we've all been doing and the 7-second B-roll with the text on top are still going to be working, or if it's going to be something else. How to follow the mini skirt rule in your content. Keys for creating more share-worthy content so that your content gets in front of more people, increasing your visibility. How to grow your audience on Instagram in 2025, specifically the perfect carousel formula to follow. We're going to steal Brock's personal content creation process, and we also talk about what happens if TikTok gets banned and we share our predictions. Get your notes app ready because this one is value-packed and you are going to want to take notes. If you have any friends or people in your life who are also content creators or they use social media to grow their businesses or promote their products and services, copy the link to this episode and send it to them so they can be on top of all of these trends because we want everyone to grow in 2025. There is enough room for all of us, and I'm so excited to give you guys all of these tips for free. We are so lucky to have Brock on the show sharing all of this with us. All right, let's dive into this episode. Welcome to the Makeshift Happen podcast. I'm your host, Samantha Daly, entrepreneur, life coach, and your no BS bestie, here to bring you all things mindset, manifestation, and personal development. This podcast is designed to help you expand your mind and uplevel your life. So turn the volume up and roll the windows down if you're coming along for the ride. Let's go make shit happen. As digital entrepreneurs, so much of the work that we do happens alone behind a screen. And to be honest, the more that you grow and succeed, the less that anyone around you can truly relate on a deep level to what you're doing, the goals you're setting, the lifestyle choices you're making, the things that you're buying, or the type of money that you're earning. Which is why Top Tier Mastermind is designed to be an intimate space for highly ambitious women where you can actually drop in, feel seen, and make some really incredible badass entrepreneur friends. It's also why we infuse an in-person immersion event into the mastermind so that we can actually meet in real life and give each other hugs and deepen those connections. So I'll invite you to my gorgeous beach town here in South Florida for the experience of a lifetime as part of your membership in Top Tier Mastermind. What is Top Tier? It is a 12-month high high-touch business mastermind designed to help online coaches and service providers scale sustainably, build an uncopyable brand, and become a respected voice in the industry. We meet weekly for live hot seat coaching calls where you'll receive direct feedback and advice from me as well as from your peers on life, business strategy, messaging, sales mindset, feminine leadership, and more. Now what really sets Top Tier apart from the other business masterminds is our commitment to quality and the fact that not just anyone can join, even if they are throwing their credit card at Every member must pass the vibe check because we're deadass serious about analyzing each applicant's energy, integrity, ambition, and making sure that they are a woman who adds value to this group. When you join TopTier, you get to tap into a highly curated network of female visionaries and CEOs who are committed to living bigger. We'll have an electric Telegram chat going at all times so that you can pop in and be supported anytime, anywhere. You'll also get access to over 30 hours of my best high-level business trainings, along with guest expert sessions from my industry 3 leading friends, as well as an all-access pass to my entire product suite. That's right, all of my other offers and programs come free with your year inside TopTier. We'll also have monthly live hypno breathwork journeys to reprogram your subconscious around illogical success, your capacity for wealth, increased visibility, living with an open heart, and more. And now what we also call Zone of Genius workshops, where you get the opportunity to teach your area of expertise to your peers inside the mastermind and also receive and learn from the other highly successful women in their specialized fields. As soon as we kick off Top Tier, you'll be guided into your own creative vortex so that you can uncover juicy content ideas that are uniquely you. I'll also teach you my million-dollar messaging techniques to help you formulate irresistible hooks and drool-worthy content so that your comment section is full of people who are ready to hire you. If you're ready to step into leader frequency, explode your business, or adapt it to fit a new season of life that you might be entering into, Top Tier is space for you, and it is open now. Please note that this is for established entrepreneurs only with functional businesses. This is not a suitable space for beginners. Application only. Click the link in the show notes to apply today. We start in January, and I can't wait to kick off the new year with you. I can't wait to read your applications. Okay, you guys, I have Brock back on the show. I'm so excited. I have like 100 questions I could ask him. I wanted to bring him back because we had him on last year and we talked about all of his predictions for the new upcoming year when it comes to Instagram content, social media, growing online, and he's such a go-to resource within our community. I know so many of you guys already follow him, and if you don't, you're going to want to, especially after this episode. So welcome back to the show, Brock. You are well loved here, and we're so excited to have you on.

Oh, well, thank you for that, Sam. I really appreciate it. I appreciate the invitation to be here. You are such a generous, kind light within this space, and so as soon as I got your DM, I was like, heck yes, I'd love to come on the show. So super excited to get to chat today and hopefully help some people out.

Yay! I know, I'm really, really excited. So I have some questions that are selfish, and I also have a lot of unselfish questions that I know so many of my girls are gonna wanna get the answers to. So let's dive in before we lose any more time. The first thing that I wanna talk about, because this is like, of course, one of the most utilized spaces on Instagram is stories. And I feel like this is the space that's always changing so much. And there's a lot of conversation about, you know, what are the current ways to use it best? And last year, I know on our episode, a lot of people had so many questions about you saying to stop talking on their stories and to stop reposting their reels on their Stories, like a lot of those little kind of controversial things. I've taken a lot of your advice. I haven't followed all of it because I'm stubborn and I still love sharing my Reels to my Stories, but I am really interested to kind of get your take on if you feel like posting less on Stories is still a viable option for increasing views. For me personally, that's still really working, like posting less often, or what you kind of feel like the vibe is in terms of how we're utilizing Stories going into 2025.

Yeah, totally. So first and foremost, I want to say you're totally spot on with the analysis that the Stories algorithm seems to be the most ever-changing and the least predictable, if you will. It seems to have very big extremes where something really, really works or it really, really doesn't work, and there's not really much of an in-between there. And so yes, less is more when it comes to Instagram Stories. We could really do an entire podcast episode just dedicated to boosting story views, but if I was to give like the super quick rundown for anyone listening, in order to have their most viewed story of 2025, their most viewed story, you know, looking back at 2024, it's this strategy that I have named the STD strategy, which I posted about the other day and everyone's like, don't call it that. Why would you call it that? I called it that because you're not going to forget it. Like, you're not going to forget the STD strategy for your stories. So STD stands for single, so just one story, text post. That's the TST, single text post story with DM automation. Single text post story with DM automation. So to break down what that means, first of all, the word single means you're only posting one story for that 24-hour period. So you're letting all of your stories from the day before expire or deleting them or whatever. Just no new stories and no new stories after that first single story that you're posting. So you're not going to post anything else for the rest of the day. So again, 24 hours, just one single post up on your story. The T is text post. So it just means— I just mean like a story with lots of text on it, like multiple paragraphs literally of text, not just like a sentence or two, but like multiple lines of text. And then the D is DM automation. So of course there's many different tools that you can use for DM automation, and you also don't even have to necessarily have DM automation as much as your final sentence. The call to action within that text should encourage people to send a DM. Once they send that DM, whether you are automatically like replying to them with a bot, sending them a link using DM automation, or you are like manually responding to each person who DMs you, the gist of it is you need to have people DMing you from that story. What this will do is it will boost your story views because people are spending a lot of time with that single story. They're watching it for an extended period of time because they have to read through all the text, and then they're not just spending time with they're actually engaging with it, and they're engaging with it in the most engaged way possible, which is like an actual DM response. And so we've seen people minimum double their story views. We've seen people 10x their story views. If you look at my top 30 stories from 2024, 29 of the 30 were using this strategy. And the only one that wasn't was when I had my wife in the story, and people love when they see my wife. But that's besides the point. 29 of my 30 used the STD strategy. And so I know people are stubborn, and I know it's not the way we've been conditioned to use stories, right? You know, like we've been conditioned like post everything and, and document your life and be very in the moment and organic. And that's totally fine most of the time. But we also all have those stories where it's like, we really wanna get a lot of views right now. We really wanna make sure that people see this story. Maybe it's like a promotion or a sale or a launch or a new podcast episode. So when you use this strategy, your story views go through the roof.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's so—

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Yeah, such a great question. And it's something that I myself struggled with in— I think it was, like, maybe July of 2024. I had this realization that so many of my followers, they were engaged, they were becoming customers, they were becoming leads, which is awesome as a business owner, but they weren't really connecting with me. Like, a lot of them just didn't know the basic things about me. Like, they didn't know the, the day ones, the first date stuff. And that was because the vast majority of my stories were using this strategy. The strategy was working. I was getting a ton of views. From those views, I was getting a ton of leads and customers, but there was no real relationship and trust being built. And so the modification that I've made is partially what you mentioned, which is incorporating more daily life into your reels. And that's not to say that you're posting a reel about the coffee that you made in the morning or your date night outfit necessarily, but finding ways to weave your daily life into content. One small example that I can think of off the top of my head is I made a post recently where I was like sitting on the chairlift because I was going snowboarding, because that's what I do like 90% of my days in the winter. I literally moved to the mountains to snowboard every day. And so I filmed a reel on the chairlift wearing all my, like, my goggles, my helmet, my snow gear. And so I wasn't talking about snowboarding, there wasn't a clip of me snowboarding, but just the fact that I was in that environment gave people a sneak peek into my life and how I'm able to mix business with pleasure, so to speak. But the second part of that is not doing an all-or-nothing strategy on your stories, not, you know, listening to today's episode and being like, all right, Brock said so, so I'm gonna do 100% STD stories. Instead, do a mix and a match. So what I do is like maybe 1 or 2 STD stories per week, and I do those strategically when I want to promote a lead magnet, hype up a new podcast episode, or maybe if I'm doing a brand partnership, I'll do that for the brand. But then on the other days, I'm doing behind the scenes, I'm documenting. Like today on my stories, I was planning on doing an STD post today, but then there was like some Instagram news, so I posted about that. And then I got a new whiteboard for my office, so I want to post about that. So I decided to postpone the STD and instead make today more of a behind-the-scenes day. So it shouldn't be an all or nothing. There's always got to be a fair amount of mixing and experimentation for a healthy Instagram strategy.

Yeah, I love that reminder of, you know, because I remember talking to people last year after our episode of like, ah, and it's like you always have to take any advice that you get from experts in any field with a grain of salt and always run it through your filter of like what feels good for you. What do you know about your community? Because there's this, these universal tips and tricks that you can utilize, but it doesn't have to be, like you said, an all-or-nothing black and white, never do this, always do that kind of thing. So I love that little reminder. I want to ask you about live videos. Do you feel like they are in or out for 2025? Best uses? How should we be approaching going live in 2025? I haven't gone live in a while, and I kind of want to do it more, so I'm curious what, how you feel about like live videos.

Yeah, live videos is actually one of my 8 predictions for 2025, and specifically live downing. I think in general on Instagram, lives are very underutilized, but there's two key features that are really going to boost up lives and aid in the, the effectiveness, the power of lives in 2025. Let me start by saying that if anyone's just kind of like barely getting their footing on Instagram, don't worry about lives. Like, if you're just figuring out how to post and growing your audience, don't worry about going live because probably no one's going to show up and it's not going to be that important just yet. But if you're someone like Sam or myself and you have an established audience and you have products and offers and services, then going live can be really powerful for a few Number 1, you're able to connect on like the most personal level possible besides like meeting in person. Like besides you and I hanging out, like going out and getting coffee or something, the best we're able to connect is having a live conversation exactly like we are right now. So when you go live on Instagram, people really get to see what you're like in the moment, hear your pacing, hear your little stories, your little riffs. They get to see your little tangents that you go on and all of that just helps make you more human. So for all of those reasons, lives are important. But I mentioned 2 features. One is DM automation. DM Automation, which I mentioned earlier. A lot of people are now familiar with DM Automation. They're using it on their stories or their feed posts, you know, comment sale and I'll send you the discount code. People are familiar with that, but a lot of people don't realize that you can use that on lives as well. So you can go live and instead of saying, go click the link on my profile and leave this live video and go click on this link in the menu, which is super confusing and super hard to follow. You can just say, hey, while you're watching live right now, comment the word hot dog. And then anyone who comments the word hot dog, will instantly get a direct message. So some of those people, sure, might leave the live and go click on that DM. That's fine. Or some of the people, even once the live is done, if they want to keep watching you for the next 45 minutes, when the live is done, there's that DM sitting there waiting for them, almost like a reminder. And so I think that that is a tool that business owners are going to start using a lot more for live selling. And I say all of this because TikTok Shop and the TikTok Live is like gangbusters. People are making so much money selling on TikTok Live. It's basically taking the principles of QVC and live infomercials from back in the day today and just social media-ifying it. And whether or not TikTok goes away, I have no idea. I sure hope not. But if it does, live selling on Instagram is going to become that much more popular. So that's the first feature. Second feature I wanna quickly mention is one that is brand new, and I didn't even know about this feature when I made this prediction originally. And the feature is, and I don't know, Sam, tell me if you've seen this yourself, when you're watching stories, there will be like a popup telling you that someone is live. So you'll see like this person's story and then a few, you know, see the next person's story and then the third person, instead of it being their stories, it's just a little like almost banner or advertisement saying that they're live and you can press a button and go right into their live. That's recently started showing up on my feed. Have you been seeing that at all?

Yeah, yeah, I have been seeing that. I don't think I really like thought about it until you said it, but I've definitely seen that.

Yeah, because like lives have always been at the front of the queue. Like it's your story, then everyone who you follow who is live, and then all of the stories, right? But now I've noticed in between stories where there is oftentimes advertisements, there is also now pop-ups that, hey, this person you follow is live. And I think it's Instagram trying to funnel more people into lives. And so yeah, like I haven't gone live a ton recently. Part of that is because, again, it's winter and I'm snowboarding a lot, but I want to start going live a lot more in 2025 because I think it's going to be really powerful.

Yeah. You know who would crush the live selling is your mom.

Oh, 100%. 100%. I like— I don't even want to tell her to go live because it would be nuts what she could do on live.

Oh my gosh. I know. She's like the infomercial queen. She would slay so hard. Okay, so emerging content trends for 2025. What do you think we're going to see? Are we going to go more long form? Form video on Instagram? Is there going to be a lot of vlog-style content? Is it going to be more high-production-value content with like, you know, we're filming stuff now with like actual, you know, really good crisp cameras? Or what about the talking head videos and the 7-second B-rolls with the text on top? Are those going away? Are those here to stay? What in terms of like trends and like types of content, what do you see really working?

Yeah, there's like so many different things that I want to hit on right now, so I'll try to go as fast as I can. Number one, I've seen a lot of people saying that long-form, direct-to-camera, talking-head-style content is going to crush in 2025, and I just don't think so. Like, from what I've seen, at least on Instagram, from what I've seen, Instagram has said that they are not leaning into long-form content. They are not going to make like IGTV 2.0. They're not going to hype up and keep extending the length of content like TikTok has done. On TikTok, it's absolutely true, and many studies have shown that 2, 3, 4, 5-minute videos are performing well. I remember the first time I watched a 15-minute video on TikTok, and it was like the 9-minute mark before I realized that I've been watching one video for this long. That would never happen on Instagram. The average user just prefers a much shorter video on Instagram. So I do not think that long-form talking head videos are going to be universally popular and effective in 2025. But at the same time, I don't think that the other end of the spectrum is going to continue to dominate in the same way that it has. And what I mean by that is that the 3-second video where it's just like some random B-roll clip and there's some like clickbaity hook up on the top, you know, 3 ways to lose 45 pounds by tomorrow. And then it's like, read the caption, and then the caption is like 17 paragraphs long. I don't think that those are going to continue to, to perform as well. Those were super popular in 2023. In 2024, the majority of my audience reported to me that they do not like those. I did numerous polls and every time the majority of people said that they don't like. A lot of anecdotal data suggests that people are muting and scrolling past and pressing not interested when they see those style of reels. So I think that there's going to be kind of a sweet spot in middle, in the kind of like 10 to 30 second range. And within that range, there's going to be two kinds of videos. There's going to be one, they're super highly produced. That doesn't necessarily mean like fancy camera, fancy microphone, but it just means like a lot of thought went into the video. It's super creative, it's super original, it's crisp, there's good sound effect, there's a good dynamic editing and transitions, and it's just very engaging, like a, like a good short commercial is. Like, we've all seen those commercials where you're like, that was a good 'Bad.' Like, 'I thought that was funny,' or 'That was just engaging,' like, 'That was a good commercial.' So like those sorts of things. Or the 10 to 30-second super organic video where it's literally just like you whipped out your phone and you recorded in that moment and you pressed post without thinking about it. You edited it right in Instagram. You didn't spend hours curating and filtering and perfecting it. You just kind of like whipped it out. I think that those are going to perform as well, but really just in that sweet spot of not too short so that it feels like gimmicky, but also not intentionally forcing yourself to be 2-minute-long, 3-minute long talking head video.

It's kind of like the two opposite sides of the spectrum, like the highly creative, you know, with transitions and whatever, and then it's just the raw, organic kind of TikTok style where it's like, my hair is messy, or I just woke up and I'm just filming this video and here we go.

100%.

Yeah, cool. Well, we can do that. We can do that, girls. We got this. We can do that. What about photos? Like, are photos gonna make a comeback? I mean, I guess this leads me into wanting to talk about like the expanded carousel posts and how we have 20 slides. I mean, give me 20 slides and I'm going to use all of them, but I'm willing to guess that that's probably not advisable. Like, that's a lot of slides for— to assume people are going to swipe through. What are your thoughts on that? Photos and carousels?

Yeah, another one of my predictions for 2025 is the resurgence of carousels, and along that same vein, the resurgence of single images. On my own account, in the last 3 or 4 months, I would say my carousels and photos are crushing. I don't know if I'm just kind of like in a creative groove when it comes to those things, but they're crushing. They're doing on average far better than my reels are doing. And so yeah, I think that carousels and photos are going to be great. I'm sure you've seen, and I'm sure a lot of people listening are familiar with the carousel that came— became popular in like the later half of 2024, where it was like a photo of you maybe like at your desk or whatever, and then you typed text on top of that photo, and then each swipe of the carousel was like the same photo, but the text would change. I think those sorts of carousels are going to continue to do well, up to 20, like you said, slides. But I don't think, you know, that using 20 is a bad thing. I like to, to use the same approach for just deciding how many carousel slides I'm going to use as I use for determining how long my reel is going to be. And I can't take credit for this analogy, but it's such a perfect analogy, such a perfect name for this rule. One of my students came up with this, and she calls it the mini skirt rule. And the mini skirt rule is a rule to help you determine how long should your content be, how many seconds should your video be, how many slides should your carousel be. And the mini skirt rule is as follows. Your content should be long enough to cover what you need to cover, but still short enough to hold people's attention. Short enough that people are going to stay attentive, they're going to keep looking, but long enough to cover the important bits, as I've heard it said. And so I think that's a good, you know, general rule for people to follow. It then allows you to not force yourself to be long just for length's sake, not just trying to add extra slides just to add extra slides. But then you're also not forcing yourself to be like, oh, I can only use 4 slides here, oh, I can only make this video 12 seconds long. If it takes you 48 seconds to convey this information, take 48 seconds. If it takes you 20 slides to articulate what you want to share, take up all 20 slides. Don't force yourself to be too short, don't force yourself to be too long.

Yeah, so good. What do you think about if you're to do like the perfect carousel, like a formula for like an ideal carousel post, how would you look at that? Because there's lots of different ways to do a carousel. Like you said, it could be a photo and each one has different text on top, could be a very educational carousel where you're teaching something and it's like a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and each slide is a new step. It could be kind of like a photo dump carousel where you're sharing different pieces of your life or what you've been up to lately, and you sprinkle in some quotes or some testimonials or something about your work. What's your, like, go-to kind of, like, carousel formula?

Great question, and I don't think I've ever, like, publicly shared this, so this is so awesome. First is, like, the educational style carousels. My basic formula is the first slide is a hook, just like any other hook. I'm using the same steps and formulas to come up with something that would grab people's attention. And the first slide, and And then the second slide is almost like a subtitle, almost like a hook version B, because the second slide is oftentimes shown to people on the feed if they don't see or engage with your post the first time. And this is a really cool and useful and underutilized, or I guess under-talked-about feature on Instagram, where if you post a carousel and someone just scrolls by it the first time, or they don't engage or they don't see it, whatever, Instagram a few hours later will show them the carousel again, but it will start them on slide number 2. So if slide number 2 just like dives right into the information, then they're gonna see slide number 2 They're gonna be like, what's even going on? They're not gonna take the time to reorient themselves and swipe back to the first slide. Oh, okay, that's the hook. That's what we're talking about. And then keep going. It's unlikely. So I like to use my second slide as kind of like a, you know, a second headline, a subheader, if you will, for the rest of the carousel. And then for the rest of the education, you know, whether it takes 3 slides or, or 12 slides, whatever, I'll add that info. I do think one mistake a lot of people make is overloading their slides and putting like a ton of information on each slide of the carousel when really you should try to simplify. Things. Like, carousels already require a lot more work on the user's end because they have to swipe through and read. And so it's, it's advantageous to really simplify each slide and only keep maybe a couple sentences at most per slide, and then always end with a call to action. So that last slide is always telling people, you know, what you want them to do next. But another formula for carousels that I found very effective is almost like a, like a photo dump, like you mentioned. So that is definitely one effective form where it's just, hey, you know, I just went on this trip to Peru and here's all these different photos that I didn't share anywhere else, and they're like the best highlights, if you will. But I've also seen people doing that with their screenshots recently, which is super funny. They've been like— Abigail Pugh has been doing this, and I've been really enjoying it. She takes screenshots from threads of like just funny quotes, relatable, you know, things that people post, whatever, memes sometimes. Like, oh my gosh, I saw this meme, I thought it was super funny. Taking those screenshots and putting those almost as a compilation in your carousel, because again, if you found it funny or relatable and your audience is anything like you, then they will also find it funny and relatable. And so it's basically the same idea where there's not like a hook or you adding any text or anything. It's just, hey, here's a bunch of screenshots. And that's such an easy kind of content. Just go through their camera roll right now, find all their favorite screenshots from the last couple weeks or months, and post that as a carousel, and they're done with content for the day. Like, boom, they have a post done for them, and it's so, so easy. So yeah, I think those are going to be really effective this year.

Hey, don't forget that every month we are picking a Listener of the Month to win $50 in cash just for showing love to the show. All you have to do is leave an epic review of podcast on Apple Podcasts, screenshot the review before you hit submit, and DM that screenshot to us on Instagram at Makeshift Happen Podcast. And that's it. I want to thank you for being such a loyal listener and show my appreciation by putting a little extra cash in your pocket. I know it's super easy not to do it, but every single rating and review seriously helps the show rank higher and reach new people, so we appreciate them more than you know. We'll announce the next winner at the end of of the month and slide into your DMs if it's you. So keep an eye out and good luck. Love you guys and thanks for supporting Makeshift Happen. Yeah, okay, cool. I love doing those. I love adding like my screenshots of quotes that I've been loving or things that I think are funny into my little like photo dumps. I think it also makes that piece of content— it turns it into a little bit more of a shareable piece of content that way, because there— if there is a slide in that carousel that someone's like, oh my gosh, 'Gosh, that's funny to me,' or 'I also relate to that,' or 'Love that quote,' or 'My audience would love this too,' then it becomes shareable. But speaking of shareable content, I know this is something you talk about a lot, and you— it's one of your predictions for 2025 as well. I don't really ever feel like my content has been shared like a ton. So give us your tips for how to create shareable content if you're not someone— I think when people think of shareable content, they think of like memes, maybe they think of— of like funny videos related to like the kind of pets that they have, or like dancing stuff or quotes, or I don't know, like those are things that maybe are top of mind when we think of shareable. What advice would you give to a content creator that runs a business like you and I do? So they're posting content, but it's for the purpose of, you know, driving sales and things like that. How should we think about shareable content so that we can create more of it?

Shareable content is going to be my focus in terms of my teaching for at least the first half of 2025. I started talking about shareable content in 2023, but I don't think I talked about it enough. I don't think I was as loud as I should have been because we saw in 2024 it was not even close. It is the best form of engagement, and it also makes sense. Like, algorithms aside, shares are the best way to get new eyeballs. Just think about it. Like, if someone likes my post, doesn't really mean anything unless the algorithm thinks that's really important. If someone comments or saves my post, it's up to the algorithm to then be like, oh, this post got a lot of saves, so it must be important, so let's show it to more That's a complex way to kind of run around things. Instead, a share totally makes sense. It's one person sending the post to another person. So a share directly equates to more views. And so shares beyond a shadow of a doubt are the best form of engagement. Instagram CEO has said this himself. So there's really like 5 kinds of share-worthy content that people can think about. Try to run through them quickly. The first one is motivational, inspirational content. I think you do a great job of this. And so I'd be interested for you to like look through your insights and see if there are like specific trends trends or quotes or, or phrases, or even like ideas behind messages that tend to get more shares for you. Because I think that'd be really interesting, especially for you specifically. But motivational or inspirational posts, when I look at my top 10 most shared posts from last year, 3 of the top 10 were the exact same post, which that in and of itself is a learning lesson. Repost your damn content. Stop thinking that everyone saw it, even if it's one of your best and it reaches hundreds of thousands of people, posted again a few months later. But the post was— and maybe you've seen it, Sam, maybe anyone listening has seen it if they followed me— it's like a crumpled up receipt that was like laid out. And it says, you know, ways to support small businesses on Instagram. And all the line items are like liking each other's posts, sending a post to a friend, engaging with sponsored posts. And it says like $0, $0, $0. So total cost, $0 to support each other. So that's like a motivational, inspirational message. It's kind of like, hey, we're all in this together. And that post goes bonkers every single time I share it. Or I should say every single time I post it. And so that is like motivational inspirational content. The second kind is what I like to call call to arms content. I don't have a good like name for this. Call to arms, sometimes I call it community content. It's the kind of content that is drawing attention to a cause or a let's raise funds for this thing. Or there's this issue that's, that's bigger than me. It's bigger than my account. It's bigger than my business. It's more of a big issue, if you will. Think of like the most famous example of this is the ALS Ice Bucket Challenge. Challenge, right? Biggest viral challenge of all time. That was so big and so viral not because the cause was that impactful to that many people, but because of how the challenge was set up. You had to dump a bucket of ice on your head, and then do you remember what you had to do next when you actually posted it?

I, I think you had to invite or tag someone to do it. Maybe it was more than one person.

You had to tag 3 people. To say that another way, you had to share the challenge with 3 other people. So of course it goes bonkers and it spreads like wildfire. And there was also kind of like the fun component of it of like, hey, we're all dumping buckets of ice on our head. So that, that's one example. The third kind of shareworthy content is the one that most of us are most familiar with, which is relatable content. This can be humor in many cases. This can be memes. This can be those trending like moments or viral clips. The key with relatable content is specificity. So like, I don't know if I were to take a picture, a screenshot of the anger emotion from the movie Inside Out, like the little fire guy, you know, and he's like, getting angry, and I put text above it that said, "Me when I'm angry." That's not very funny. That's not really going to get shared because it's not specific. Like, it's not relatable, you know? Like, yeah, we all get angry, and that's literally the personified emotion of anger. Like, it's not specific, it's not funny, it's not relatable. But if I was like, "Me when I record a 20-minute YouTube video and I realize that my mic has been turned off the entire time," now it's specific. Now 99% of people are like, I can't even relate, I've never had that happen. But if I was someone who specifically was a coach for YouTubers or podcasters, they would be like, oh my gosh, yes, that connects, I've been there, I totally feel that, that's— I feel like you're in my brain right now. And then they share it, and then they send it to a friend, they're like sending it to their story because this has happened to them. So really, the key to relatability is specificity. I can't tell you how many times I have seen a, like, hyper specific TikTok that I'm like, this specific experience, like, I thought I was the only person on the planet who had this experience. And then it has like 300,000 likes, and then one of the top comments says, wait, do we have no unique experiences anymore? Like, is every single thing that we experience as humans something that someone else has also experienced? And that's just to the point that relatability comes from specificity. So think of the things in your daily life that are frustrating, that are annoying, and I truly mean daily life because that's how you get specific and minute with these details. The things that bring you joy, the things that get you excited, the things that make you confused, and and just turn those into content, and ultimately that will be relatable. So that's number 3. I know that's a long answer. Number 4 is timely content. So like breaking news, any sort of trends, using pop culture, using, you know, any sort of like thing that's going on in the bigger world. Like I think of fall 2024, Wicked was the thing. So even though most of us weren't in like the musical theater or the Wizard of Oz niche, if you could find a way to incorporate like pink and green, or if you could find a way to incorporate like one of the sound bites from Wicked or one of the memes from Wicked into your content, that would be a way to tap tap into like culture as a whole, pop culture, and still make it relatable to your content. So again, just to recap, we have like timely breaking news content, we have the relatable content, we have motivational content, we have the call to arms style content, and then there's one more that I am blanking out. Oh yes, controversial. The fifth kind is controversial. So I'm not encouraging people to be rude or crass or, or defamatory or, you know, call people out and get canceled or whatever. But what I am saying is we all have opinions, we all have beliefs in our niche that are different than the popular opinions. And so when you share your unpopular opinions, your audience will be like, yes, finally someone said it. Finally someone spoke up about this thing and they don't want to say it themselves. They're too scared to say it themselves, but they believe it. And so when you say it, when you post about it, they share it because it's a way that they can kind of like say it without saying it, right? It's a way that they can kind of be like, I believe and support this idea without actually saying it themselves. And so that quote unquote controversial or unpopular content can oftentimes be very very shareworthy.

So good. Okay. All of my clients know that I'm frothing on this, especially the piece about specificity, because I teach this all the time. I say the spice is in the specificity. So if you want your content to be more spicy and kind of get more attention, you have to be hyper-specific. And we talk about boiling down to those really, really hyper-specific examples or anecdotes from your life. Even using that, like, I use that as a way to create like my hook formulas rather than doing, like you said, a generic hook when something that's more hyper-specific, it is going to be more relatable. And I think that's a confusing thing about relatability. So I love that you mentioned that relatability comes from specificity, because the emotion of anger is widely relatable. It's probably the most relatable. Like, everyone has experienced anger, but that doesn't create the relatability that makes you take an action or do something based off of that. That only happens when it— when it's the relatability that's not wide but it's deep, right? It's like so deep and profound and personal to me of like, oh my gosh, it I can't believe— wait, are other people experiencing this? I remember the first time I saw a meme about when your dog stretches and you have to say like, "Oh, big stretch!" And that was a moment I had like you where I was like, wait, does everybody else do that? Are we all saying, "Oh, big stretch!" every time our dog stretches? Like, how is that a universal experience? But that's what makes it so fun and funny and relatable. So the specificity piece is huge, and I love that you brought that to the forefront. Okay, this has given me already so many ideas of how to create some more shareable content. So hopefully that's helped everyone listening as well to kind of like add that in to what you're creating in 2025. Okay, what else can we dig into? Oh my gosh, there's so many. Let's talk about growth specifically, cuz obviously we're at the start of a new year. There's gonna be a lot of people, business owners, content creators that are like, I wanna grow on Instagram this year, or whatever social platforms they're using. So let's say that I'm an entrepreneur and I create content on my Instagram to sell my products or services, because that's going to be a lot of my audience. I've been on social media for years, let's say. I post pretty consistently, feel like my content is good, but my account hasn't really grown for the past year or more. What are the first areas of my profile that you might look at, or how would you start to audit to see what could be improved? What's some kind of like general Instagram growth tactics that you might give?

Fortunately, the growth strategy is the 1-2-3 of Growing on Instagram in 2025. Are the same in 2023, and they were the same in 2014, and they are step number 1: niche down as far as you possibly can. I have yet to find someone who is too niched down. I've yet to find someone who has like gone too specific with their niche. And I define niche as the who and the what. So who are you talking to? And that's where most people get vague. Most people are like, oh, I'm talking to women, or— and I'm like, that's half the planet. Or, you know, I'm talking to moms, and I'm like, well, a mom who's 21 and is a single mom is very different than a mom who's 45 and is an empty nester, right? They're totally different people. So get very specific with the demographics of your who, because that will refine who you are talking to, the words you're using, the phrasing you're using. Not to get too lost in the weeds here, but like my ideal demographic is women who are around 40 years old. So I know that there's specific words that I can use when speaking to them that they will understand. But myself, I'm a Zillennial, like I'm 1997 baby. So I'm right between like Millennial and Gen Z. So like I understand most of the Gen Z terminology and slang, but I'm not going to use it on my Instagram. Um, because when I do use it, I get a bunch of questions like, what does that mean? I remember I made a post recently where I said like, W Christmas, and people were like, what does W mean? And I had to explain it means winning and it comes from video game culture.

I think I saw your comment explaining that. Oh my gosh.

That's so funny. I'm actually thinking about a post in the near future where I'm like explaining Gen Z terms to millennials and baby boomers or whatever, or Gen X. Yeah. But anyways, I digress. That's just to the point, you really need to know who you're speaking to, and you really need to know the who and the demographics of these people. And then the what is what most people have nailed down, which is like the topic that they're speaking about, the, the industry that they're in. So the first thing I would do is really get clear about the who. And if you're in a super crowded niche, can you get more specific? Like, there are so many up-and-coming Instagram coaches who follow me, and they're awesome, and I see them in my comments every day, but they're doing the same thing that 100 other people are doing, which is I'll help you with growing on Instagram. What if you got more specific? What if you were specifically helping painters? I help painters grow on Instagram. Well, now you might not have 30 million followers, but you might have 30,000 painters who follow you who all want to grow on Instagram, and they rave about you. And in all the Facebook groups and the Reddit forums, they're talking about you because you solved that clear problem. So that's the first thing. Second thing is the profile. Like, we just need to make sure that it's optimized. We need to make sure that it's SEO friendly. We need to make sure that it clearly articulates what we do. We need to make sure that all of our recent posts are a reflection of our niche statement and the kind of content that we're going to be providing, especially this time of year where we're coming off the holidays. And maybe, you know, a lot of your recent posts are just like the family Christmas card photo and what you got for Christmas and then the holiday dinner and then this and that. And it's like you got off topic here. So let's reel it back in a little bit. And then the third thing is, is posting.

I need to do that. Reel it back in. All the end of year recaps. It's over now. It's over now, people.

Yeah, let's, let's reel it back in. Let's, let's bring it back to, to earth. Bring it back to reality. The niche here. Um, but then the third step is just posting with a growth strategy. And the biggest growth strategy is the one we've already talked about, which is share-worthy content. It's the best way to reach new people. It's the best way to grow your audience. And so if your goal is like really growth, you're like, hey, I just— I need followers, then I would focus the majority of my content on making it as share-worthy as possible.

So, so good. I love those. Let's talk about AI just for a second, because I know this is probably part of 2025 predictions and trends, it's obviously, you know, becoming more and more popular in all the ways. What I'm curious about is if you have any fun, easy, helpful, interesting ways that you're using AI besides DM automation. I feel like that we're all using MoneyChat at this point, but is there any like AI tools or ways that you use AI, even if it's just ChatGPT, like to support you with content ideas or writing captions, anything that, you know, you think is helpful to the average kind of content creator on Instagram?

Yeah, I think the support is the key word here. Really being an assistant or a supporter is how I use AI. I'm not using it to replace myself. I'm not using it to be a, a extra content creator on my team or something like that. I'm using ChatGPT to help me brainstorm, to help me come up with ideas, to help me— sometimes I'll like, I have a master just like note in my phone with like hundreds of post ideas dating back to probably 2022, just like random thoughts I've had of, hey, Hey, I should make a post, write it down. Sometimes I just copy that entire list and put it into ChatGPT and I'm like, hey, can you take any of these ideas and rewrite some of them? Or from all these ideas, are there any other ideas that maybe I haven't touched on that I, that you think could be related? I sometimes use it to, you know, make my writing more concise, tighten up my scripts, come up with new hooks, come up with words that are, are more descriptive of what I'm truly trying to say. So I use ChatGPT for those sorts of things. And then I think that there are so many little AI things that we don't even realize are AI. Like when you put your video into CapCut or even into Instagram and you tap the closed captions button, that's AI analyzing what you're saying and transcribing your video into closed captions. So I use those tools. I use the, some of the AI features in Canva, like the background remover tool or the, you know, expander tool. Those are really, really helpful. But one specific AI app that I am a fan of is called invideo.io, and you basically can type in a prompt, and then from that prompt, it will create an entire video for you. You can get really fancy, nerdy specific with it though, and what I like to do is give it my entire script, and then if I wanted to, I could even have it use my voice and do an AI voiceover. So if I didn't actually want to record this, this script, I could have it create the video with my voice in the background reading the script that I wrote. And it can then do one of three things. It can either pull a bunch of like stock B-roll clips, just random people. It can now generate AI B-roll clips, so it's original B-roll that it's created by AI. Or what I like to do is import my own B-roll clips. So essentially it's all me, right? It's my B-roll clips, it's my script that I wrote, it's my voice. I'm just using AI to do the work, do the actual lifting of cutting it all together, splicing it all up, and putting the voiceover in the background. And so that is a tool that I like to use. I don't use it a ton, but I might use it for maybe 1 or 2 reels a week because it's just easy content. It's an easy way to create content that's still valuable and engaging and still very authentic to me.

Do you feel like you can the difference when it's your voice versus the AI-generated version of your voice, or it's so good that you can't even tell?

It's getting so good. Like, I remember when I first did it, I don't know if it was that the AI was simpler or that the— because you have to upload like a sample of your voice, and I should say no one else can use your voice, only you can use your voice. But I remember the first sample I did, you have to like say a certain phrase, and I think I was sick at the time, so I like said it very monotonously and like my nose was stuffed up. So like I had like a, you know, like a sinus thing. And so it didn't really sound like me, but now I redid it and I did it in like my Reels podcasting voice where I'm like more upbeat and enthusiastic. And it sounds very much like me. Like, there's a few times where like the pacing might get a little off, but it's pretty dang good. And what you could always do, and I've done this before, is I have it create the clips, I have it edit them together, I have it use my B-roll, I have it add background audio, but then I actually just record my actual voice as the voiceover. So I let it do like 90% of the work work for me, but either way, it's definitely something that speeds up the process.

I'm curious about your process when creating content, because you have a lot of output. I think you said for 2025 you plan on continuing doing 2 posts a day on Instagram. Correct me if I'm wrong. And I know that you've also said, you know, you have a team of 20 people supporting you. Give us some insight into what your process around content creation looks like. You obviously have a running list of ideas. I'm sure you come up with ideas off the fly based on stuff that you're consuming and stuff that you see or things in your community or Insta Club Hub that people are asking about a lot. You're like, okay, that's a great idea. We need to post a piece of content about that. But in general, you know, I have so many people that I know are listening to this that are like, how do I dedicate like time to come up with my ideas and then to execute? Like, how long should this take? Just give us some insight into like the, the process behind that. And of course we have the nuance of knowing that you have a lot of team and it's, you know, gonna look different for you than it is gonna look for the average, you know, single mom who's also running a business.

And I think that's the biggest thing, is like that there's nuance to this and that it's going to be different for every single person. You have to find the systems and the strategies that work for you, and even those things might change over time. So I think this is something that also gets lost in the sauce, is yes, we have 20, 25 people working on the Insta Club Hub, but of all those people, only one person directly interacts with my Instagram on the day-to-day, and she doesn't create any content for me, she doesn't edit for me, she's just my community manager. I don't want to say just because I don't want to belittle her, her role, but she is engaging with comments, responding to direct messages, and making sure that people feel seen and heard so that I don't have to spend all day responding to comments and DMs. But if you're not at the stage where you're getting hundreds of comments on every post and thousands of DMs every day like I am, then you might not need that person. And so that means if, if I take her away, there's literally just me working on my Instagram. All of the other people are working on the business, and it's because those other people are working on the business that I am able to spend all of my time— or I shouldn't say all of my time, but I'm able to be the only person dedicated to my Instagram. So I think that that's just important for people to understand. Maybe someone who's listening today, they want to have like a 3 or 4 person team to just run their Instagram so that they can, you know, focus on juggling more of the balls within the business. That can work too. Again, there's different strokes for different folks, but what works for me is first and foremost, in terms of the creative element, I don't like to block off a creative time. When I force myself to be like, hey, from 11 to 12 on Thursday afternoon, I guess that'd be Thursday morning, I'm going to create scripts. I'm gonna come up with ideas. I, I don't feel creative in that moment. Instead, I like to let creativity strike. And so, like you mentioned, and like I mentioned earlier, I have a running list in my Notes app of just random ideas. Whenever I have an idea, whether I'm reading a book, watching TV, whatever, I'll just write it down. I'll write it down in my notes. And then at a later date, I might come back to it and consolidate it or expand on it, write a little bit more. But I just, I get that idea onto paper or onto electronic paper as fast as I can. I also have a folder in my camera roll of screenshotted content, mostly memes, but it is a few other just random post ideas or graphics or carousels that I'm like, ooh, this is really good, or, ooh, I wanna recreate this, or, ooh, I love this hook. So I'll screenshot it and put it in that folder. And then I have a folder on Instagram and on TikTok. I think it's labeled like recreate or, or repost or, or good ideas or something like that. And essentially when I see a good post for whatever reason, great call to action, creative editing, funny idea, trend, whatever, I just save save it into that folder. So then when I have my time where I am ready to record, then I'll just record as much as I possibly can. And I don't have to spend that time script writing and coming up with ideas and fleshing out content. I just create, create, create, create. And I don't worry— and this is the biggest thing— I don't worry about editing during that time. I don't worry about posting it during that time. I think a lot of times people get caught up in doing A to Z in one sitting when it's like, no, I do A, which is like the ideas, all the time. I'm always letting ideas flow through me. I'm always letting like these ideas be come up with and written down. The B, the actual like creation. I am only creating. Like, I'm sure your listeners will understand this, Sam. I understand this as someone who is like a guy who like my skincare routine is like water on face, end of list. Every couple days I might like borrow a little bit of my wife's like face wash. Don't tell her I said that, but that's it. And like I have a buzz cut, like I don't have to do my hair, I don't wear makeup. Like, so for me, getting ready is not hard, but I still understand what I'm about to say, which is that we all have days and times times where we just feel more put together, we feel more willing to go on camera, we feel more like, hey, you know, I'm— I feel good about the way I look right now, like my skin's looking good, whatever. Don't let those days go to waste. Don't let those times go to waste. Have the ideas ready to go and record 7 Reels in that sitting. Edit them later, cut them up later, decide if you're even going to post them later. You should, but just decide that later. Don't let that time go to waste. One of those times for me is literally this afternoon. Like, I'm like, hey, my hair is kind of in this middle ground right now. I got it cut like 2 weeks ago. I got a good shirt on today. My skin, like, I had some breakout over like the holidays from eating so much sugar that went away. Okay, I'm gonna record a bunch of reels today. And then for me, the actual editing process, if it's a quick edit, I do it myself. If it's like something that's only gonna take up maybe 20 minutes or less, I'll do it myself. And then I have an editor who, she does 16 reels per month for me. So she does really my like long-form, direct-to-camera, talking-head style reels. So I guess that would be the second person in the business who, who directly interacts with my Instagram. She does edit 16 reels per month for me just because those take, take a little bit more time, right? And I'd rather have a professional do that, someone who can do it much faster and much better than I can.

So interesting. I'm so glad I asked that question because even myself, you know, I've played around with so many different ways of organizing my inspiration and my creation. But I love that you've also given the permission, because I think a lot of people who are Instagram experts or content creators, it's all about the content calendar and setting aside this time. And I love that you've kind of given the permission for that feminine energy of, you know, creativity is not going to follow a time block. Creativity is not going to strike for you from 11 to 12 because just because you've set it in the calendar. And I know that so many people listening to this will relate to that. So having a way for you to constantly be noting down and saving things— I send things to myself, that's kind of my hack. If I see something that I like or I think is funny or it's given me a good idea or it's inspired me to create my own version of it in some way, I send it to myself. So my DMs with myself are all like like the inspiration of things that I might wanna like recreate or do my own version of. So if anyone's listening and you wanna use that hack, then you just, when you're like, okay, I need to create some content, go into your DMs with yourself and scroll back and be like, okay, what? I need some inspo. What am I creating here?

So flippin' smart. That is such a good idea.

Yeah. So that's kind of my little hack for that. Last thing I wanna ask you about is just your thoughts on the potential TikTok ban. I feel like this has come up so many times now that for me personally, I just kind of feel like I'll believe it when I see it. Like, I don't really think that it's going to happen. But as someone who posts on both platforms, or, you know, as a creator maybe who has a large following on TikTok and like also kind of uses Instagram but it isn't their main— I don't know, like, where would your head be at with that?

I feel exactly how you feel, which is like, I'll believe it when I see it. But I've been saying that for the last 2 years, and every time I'm proven wrong. Every time I'm like, this is not gonna happen, there's no way, and then it happens. There's no way it's going to pass, and then it happens. There's no way it's going to get approved one more time, and then it gets approved one more time. So it's nuts. I will say, if it does get banned, if it does get, get taken away, first of all, it's not like an immediate thing. And I think a lot of people need to understand that. It's not like January 19th hits, you know, it doesn't, it doesn't get protected, it gets banned, and then suddenly it's deleted off our phone. You wake up that day and it's just gone. That's not really how it's going to work. It's going to continue to be on your phone. You're going to be continue to be able to post and use and consume. The only thing that's going to change is, A, no one new is going to be able download it. So there won't be any new users joining TikTok, at least without a VPN. That's a whole nother conversation. You could use a virtual private network and access TikTok that way, but that's pretty cumbersome, and I imagine most people won't do that. So A, no one will be able to download it, and B, TikTok will not be able to release new updates. So that's what happens now for most of us. We have automatic updates on, or we update in the App Store every once in a while, and so TikTok stays up to date. So they won't be able to issue new updates. So eventually the software will just break. And that might be months, it might be years even before the software just gets to the point that it's inoperable for most people. So I think that's one thing that people need to be aware of. If TikTok is banned, it's going to be a massive shift to Instagram because people, as much as, you know, the— there's— there might be a growing consensus on TikTok of like, we're not going to Instagram, Reels suck. And like, they're anti-Reels, they're going to go to Reels. People are like, I'm going to go back into nature and I'm going to, you know, social media detox. No, you're not. No, you're not. Like, you're spending 5 hours a day scrolling on TikTok. Because TikTok gets banned, you're not just suddenly going to become like a Buddha exist and just like throw your phone in the garbage. I don't think it's going to be some new platform. I really think that Instagram and YouTube are going to benefit the most from a TikTok ban. I really, like, I have no idea. If I had to bet money, I would put a very, very, very, very small amount of money on TikTok not getting banned. Like, I'd put like $5 on TikTok not getting banned. But I think that should show you my confidence in that bet.

Wow.

Okay, so you think, you know, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. And for the last 2 years, over and over again, I've been like, TikTok ain't getting banned. And then we get one step closer.

I've been thinking of it the opposite way. I've been thinking they've been saying it's going to get banned this whole time and it never does.

It never does, but it keeps getting closer. Okay, it keeps like moving forward within the legislative process, which— that's what's scary to me because I never thought we'd make it this far, but we have. So I don't know, I don't think so. I hope not. I really hope not. I love TikTok, but we'll see.

I was thinking about this because I don't really use TikTok that much, and I'm like, it would be kind of like an alleviating thing if like TikTok just went away and then I wouldn't have to tell myself all the time I should be on it more and I should be using it more. But I also thought about the fact that the saturation is going to change massively on Instagram. You know, you said Instagram and YouTube are going to benefit the most from it from the platform perspective, but from the users, like, what happens when there's this huge influx of creators running back to Instagram? And like, I don't know, how would that change things?

I think I made I think there's gonna be a short-term boost for us Instagram creators where like suddenly our views are way up because there's way more consumers, which is awesome. But then a few months later, all of the TikTok creators start finding their mojo on Instagram. They start learning the Instagram game. Their followers from TikTok find them on Instagram, and then the pendulum swings back the other way. I don't think it's going to swing negatively, but I do think it's going to at least swing back to the baseline of where we were before TikTok got banned. So at least in the, in the first few months, it should be good. I don't know how long that'll last, but at least initially it'll be like, yay, all these new users.

All right, well, start saving your creative ideas, girls. Start sending yourself all the content you wanna create so you're ready in case, in case TikTok gets banned and we have an influx of views and opportunity on Instagram. You're ready. You're ready to go. Thank you so much, Brock, for coming on and sharing everything with us. Uh, this has been such a valuable episode. I know that people are gonna get so much out of this. Make sure that you guys follow Brock if you don't already, if you want more consistent help, support tips with your Instagram. All year long, he's my go-to. So go give him a follow. We'll link everything in the show notes for you guys below. And then do you want to shout anything out, Brock? Anything you have coming up? Anything you want to make note of?

Nothing major. Follow me on Instagram and you, you'll be up to date with all my stuff.

Perfect. All right, you guys, thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, if you know another creator or an entrepreneur or someone who would find this valuable, copy the link, send it to them in a message, let them know you were thinking of them. And, uh, if you do take a screenshot and share it to your Instagram story, stories, make sure that you tag both Brock and I so that we can engage with you, have a chat with you, and we'll talk to you guys soon. Love you, bye!

Mwah!