From Mushrooms to Millions: Four Sigmatic’s CEO on Biohacking Mornings & Conscious Parenting

If your energy levels have been struggling lately, you feel like your gut might need a little extra TLC, or your mornings have just been more stressful than you would like, this episode is going to hit different. Today I'm joined by Tero Isokkaupila, a pioneer in the functional mushroom space and the founder of Four Sigmatic, the brand that turned mushroom coffee into a global wellness phenomenon and scaled it into a 9-figure empire. Tero's been named one of the top 50 food activists by the Academy of Culinary Nutrition and featured in Time, Forbes, Vogue, and Goop. So yeah, when he talks fungi, we listen. But this conversation is going to go way deeper than shrooms. We talk about how some mushrooms act like spiritual uppers while others mellow your nervous system like natural downers. The real story of how Tero went from the forest floors in Finland to disrupting the wellness industry with a whole new category. The honest pros and cons of building a business when you truly do You do not know what the hell you're doing. And the culture shocks of parenting in the U.S. versus Europe, from the school systems to food quality to community support. We get really candid, and we also talk about the mindset shift that happened when he became a dad, including how he had to restructure his schedule, redefine hustle, and start parenting more consciously. And then we close things out with a messy game of Forage or Forget, where Tero gives his unfiltered reactions to viral wellness trends in the biohacking world. I'm also super excited to announce that we are doing a giveaway for this episode. So if you want to win some epic Four Sigmatic goodies, AKA real mushroom magic, shipped right to your door for free, then just head over to my Instagram at _samanthadaily and find the trailer for this episode and comment the word shrooms. That's it. Your engagement helps our guests know that you're tuning into their episode, and it gives you a chance to win some wellness goodies. So we'll pick several winners and reach out to you to ship you your free products. From wellness to entrepreneurship to parenthood, there are so many gems in this episode, I think you're really gonna love it. And for the full visual experience, you can watch this episode on YouTube to see me sit down in the studio live with tarot. Alright, let's get into it. Welcome to the Makeshift Happen podcast. I'm your host, Samantha Daly, entrepreneur, life coach, and your no BS bestie, here to bring you all things mindset, manifestation, and personal development. This podcast is designed to help you expand your mind and uplevel your life.

Life.

So turn the volume up and roll the windows down if you're coming along for the ride.

Let's go make shift happen. Welcome to the show, Tero. I'm so excited that you're here. Yes, we're in Austin, in person. This is so exciting. He just brought in a whole bag of Four Sigmatic stuff, so I'm excited to dig into that. You've got your shroom shirt on, like, yes, the branding is on point. So let's start with kind of the backstory of mushrooms. You are a 13th generation farmer from Finland, grew up foraging mushrooms with your family. What— how did you get into this whole world? Were you just always connected with nature because of growing up around that? What was that like with your family?

Yeah, I grew up nestled in nature and natural living. I didn't realize it at that point. And now that I have young kids myself, I realize that they don't really realize the perspective. Like, sometimes I wish I will be reincarnated as my children in the future, you know, because they live a pretty good life, but they know what they know. Same way as I knew what I knew. I grew up on a farm, showering and drinking spring water and eating wild berries and and the produce from our farm. And we have these heirloom cows, really like high quality meats and stuff. And I just thought everyone kind of lived that way because that was my bubble. Right. And I learned from since I was yay high about foraging mushrooms and berries, but also about health and wellness through my mom who taught physiology and anatomy to nurses. And I learned from her about like the health and wellness side and about farming and land and soil and trees and forests from my father. And that kind of inspired me too. But when I was a kid, I didn't think that would be my career. I thought, you know, I'll be a rally car driver or—

Oh, nice.

Teacher or something like that. You know, totally something else.

So it was two very different career paths. Yeah.

Well, you know what you know at that age, and that was what I saw.

So yeah. Was your connection with nature, did that like influence your idea of spirituality or anything in that, in that way? Because I feel like when you grow up, really just like living from the land and nature, you're almost like more connected to a sense of spirituality in some way.

I think so, but I didn't realize it that at that moment either. That being said, Finnish people are broadly Lutheran, so it's a form of Christianity, but people are really pagan. So a lot of Finnish traditional sayings and beliefs are from our time of being, you know, like people of the forest, you know, elves and tribes. Like my middle name is, means the King of Elves and Mystics. And there are these like gods and there's this myths and lores that are told to us since we're children about like creatures and spirits. I often say that the closest part of the US culture to Finland is actually Hawaii. A lot of the Hawaiian beliefs are actually weirdly very similar to the Finnish beliefs. Even though the weather and the climate couldn't be more different, right? Um, and I think it's because you're proximate in nature, you have a different feel for spirituality and connection, uh, whatever God you happen to believe in.

Yeah, so interesting. So I know I mentioned to you earlier that we read the book this past Christmas, Santa Sold Shrooms. Didn't know that I was going to be interviewing you, but very cool. I told my fiancé that before I was coming here. I was like, babe, you know, the guy that I'm interviewing is the guy that wrote— because I like didn't put two and two together at first because he bought me that book and my mom and I read it at Christmas and we were like obsessed with it. And it kind of is like what you're talking about, just so much like lore and like this mysticism around plants and nature. And obviously it's more about the, you know, Christmas traditions and like Santa Claus and the reindeer and stuff. But yeah, it was just so cool to kind of read and how it all relates to mushrooms too. I was like, this is so wild.

And what I've learned, I've now lived in 10 countries, is that every country and every culture has these traditions and understandings. Some of them were just lost maybe earlier than others, right? And some cultures it's still very prevalent in how people live today. But yeah, in Finland just happened to modernize a little later than some other cultures. So maybe it's a little, the imprint is a little stronger there than some other places.

Yeah, so cool. We love that book. Amazing. I'm gonna have to read it like every Christmas. There's so many, it was so complex. I can't even remember all the different connections 'cause there was like the urine and the mushroom. There was so many different things that all connected.

And how did he find it?

I don't know how he found it. I have to ask him. But he got it for me and my mom and we were reading it at Christmas time. Like, wow, this is so cool.

It's a fun annual read. It's a short read.

Yeah, yeah. No, it was very, very cool. Speaking of mushrooms, What do you wish more people knew about functional mushrooms and adaptogens that you think— I mean, there's a lot of people in the wellness space that know these things, but like the general population, I would say, is still pretty, you know, uneducated or uninformed about the healing powers of mushrooms and adaptogens. What do you wish more people knew?

Okay, so I have something I think you're really going to love, and your business is going to love it even more. Do you want to steal the strategy I've been using to seduce premium buyers and sell out my offers on Instagram stories? Chances are you're already posting, you're already making sales, but if your Instagram stories aren't working as hard as you are, you're leaving money on the table. Sold Out Stories is going to teach you exactly how to change that so that you can sell out any offer at any price point. And even high-caliber coaches miss this because selling on stories isn't about how much you post or how frequently you show up face to camera. It's about psychological sequencing and the way you're posting right now might be giving the premium buyers in your audience the ick. Documenting your day and hoping it builds trust, posting look-at-me content and calling it authority, sharing client wins as soon as they drop in instead of strategically weaving them into a story selling sequence designed to drive demand and convert sales. We both know that you're not here to learn how to show up more. You're here because you know your content could be converting faster and more effectively. Sold Out Stories is gonna give you 5 high-converting story selling frameworks built specifically for premium buyer psychology. Inside, you'll get over 6 hours of deep dive video trainings, real IG story breakdowns, and live walkthroughs that show you exactly how to elevate your slides from authority building all the way to offer flow in less than 10 slides. My clients have already been using these frameworks to pull 5-figure sales days while posting less. One client generated 14 premium leads from a single story sequence. Another sold out her event in under 6 hours with just 8 strategic story slides. No sales calls, no paid ads, just the right frameworks. You'll walk away knowing how to sequence for desire, transition into your offer seamlessly and sell daily without ever feeling salesy. You already know your offer's incredible, so now it's just time for your stories to sell it like it is. Grab Sold Out Stories today and turn 10 slides or less into your highest converting content. Let's make your next story your most profitable one yet. Click the link in the show notes below and I'll see you inside.

Yeah, it's crazy. When I started Four Sigmatic over a decade ago and we created the original mushroom coffee, it was like Nobody really took them, like almost no one. And today about a third of Americans have had these functional mushrooms in the last 6 months. So that's a big jump, right? That being said, that still means like almost 70% of people haven't had them or thought of them. I think there's still a lot of mycophobia in American culture, a fear of mushrooms. They think they're gross, they taste bad. You know, they're just a vegetable, there's nothing special about them. But increasingly people are aware of all the beautiful things. So for the masses, for the mainstream people, I was just generally like, they're not any more dangerous than plants. Actually, there's less poisonous mushrooms than there are poisonous plants. There's way more ways to kill yourself by eating plants. But some, somehow people who never forage are still afraid of to forage for mushrooms. They don't forage anything else either.

Mm-hmm.

So, There's a lot of fear on, on, on fungi. And then for people who are aware, I think they're aware on a certain level, but there's so many promising use cases for fungi to heal our earth and our bodies and our minds at different types of fungi. And I think people know about one or two of them, but they don't know broadly on how versatile these little fantastic fungi can be.

Yeah. So could you tell us a couple of like the cool uses for these types of mushrooms, whether it's like productivity, focus, sleep? Like what are some of the main ones?

Yeah. Um, before I jump into the, the ones that you should probably be taking, I just want to highlight that roughly 30 to 40% of all pharmaceuticals are derived from fungi, and like half of the best-selling drugs are derived from fungi. So like we use them if we want them or not. Every person, every single person, if you take functional mushrooms or not, you will have mushrooms or fungi in your skin and in your gut. So you have not just a microbiome but a mycobiome. So you will have either a good or bad type of fungi in, in your skin and in your gut, and it impacts the quality of your skin, quality of your digestion, quality of your cognitive function as well, a lot.

Didn't you say that we're like 50%— we share 50% of the DNA with fungi? Correct.

Up to 50% we share common ancestors. So fungi also breathe oxygen, expel CO2. Plants are the opposite. There's a lot of similarities, which is also a blessing and a curse. So fungal diseases like mold and Candida, when they get us, they're really hard to get rid of. Like, if you ever had this— hopefully you haven't, or somebody listening hasn't— but if you do, it's like they're really difficult and hard to get rid of. And, uh, but then again, like, fungal medicine is very bioavailable to us because of this DNA similarity. So there's pros and cons. But as far as, like, an average person, you don't need to learn— like, you don't need to become a mycologist to benefit from them. Like, you don't need to learn a million things. Same way as we actually don't eat that many vegetables or fruit. Like, we tend to eat the bananas and the apples and the oranges and, you know, like the spinach and the broccoli and the cauliflower. And by the way, broccoli and cauliflower are almost the same plant anyway, even though they look very different. So people eat the same thing, but then they're somehow afraid to introduce mushrooms to their life where really they should just learn 2 or 3. Uh, I would say in general, when in doubt, always start with reishi mushroom, R-E-I-S-H-I. It's a Japanese name, very common mushroom, grows everywhere. It's amazing for stress. I love reishi.

Take it every night.

Gut health. Yeah. Amazing. It's just like the most studied of them, the kind of starting point. Currently, by far the most trendy and popular is called lion's mane. It's a very delicious culinary mushroom too, but it can be used for cognitive health, improving memory, mental clarity, focus. And I think given the stressors of modern-day life, more and more people are looking for an edge. Like to one-up, and this is a very natural way to do that instead of using more pharmaceutical-type nootropics. Um, so those are maybe two. Um, another one that doesn't get enough credit is shiitake or oyster, because they're so common. You could cook with them. They have medicinal properties too, uh, for the liver. You know, they're great for a lot of different reasons, but, but yeah, they're commonly available. So almost every good grocery store sells them.

So, mm-hmm. I love that. I'm excited to drink more of the mushroom coffee. And I saw some calm stuff.

Yeah.

In the, what can you tell me about what, what that is?

Yeah. The Four Sigmatic makes products for mostly focus, gut health, and calm. Calm being like sleep and stress relief. And the calm products are based around reishi and an adaptogenic herb called ashwagandha. And then we combine things like magnesium and B6 vitamins that support it naturally. The Western world is obsessed with these binary outcomes. You're either a winner or loser. You either, you know, do this or that. And in, when in health and wellness, what that often translates to, a lot of people are focused on either thinking that something is an upper or downer versus often in nature, the most healing and the best things are both at the same time.. So, for example, matcha has caffeine, but it also has L-theanine, an amino acid that helps you calm. There's chlorophyll. So, cacao has theobromine, which is similar compound to caffeine, but it also has the highest source of magnesium, which is calming and grounding. So, with cacao and matcha, you get a very, like, balanced, good mood and feeling. And, and same with with these sleep products. A lot of people just pound melatonin and they pound all these like very aggressive sedatives, uh, even like valeriana and, you know, things like kava, which can be used. I use both of them occasionally, you know, when I travel, I'm jet-lagged or something. But like people abuse them versus using these more tonic things like Rishi Ashwagandha or chamomile, lavender, things that are a little more regenerative versus like depleting the batteries.

Yeah, yeah. I'm a big matcha girlie, so I love the— I love the, the fact that it has the L-theanine in it because it's just— it's such a difference between like caffeine or drinking coffee, for example. Coffee that doesn't have mushrooms in it, it doesn't have any other adaptogens or anything in it. Um, no crash. Like, it's—

it—

you really feel the difference. So I love that. Um, big matcha girly. But I want to talk about Four Sigmatic and the, like, monstrosity of a brand that you've created, just kind of from the entrepreneurial side as well.

Monstrosity of a name too, you know. If I would have been a better marketer, I would have chosen a better name, huh?

Yeah, where did the name— well, I guess we'll talk about that. Where did the name come from? It means something.

Yes, but it's very nerdy and 99% of people don't get it. It's basically math and it means the 100 most researched foods in the world. So Four Focuses on the 100 most nutrient-dense whole foods. Not all of them are obviously mushrooms, but there's things like coffee and tea and lemon and ginger and things are amazing too. But yeah, probably should have chosen an easier name, huh? But when people see it, it's like nothing else is like that. So at the end of the day, they do remember it, but it would've probably been easier to—

Yeah, something a little bit more that sounds like I don't know, relates to mushrooms. But when I think of Four Sigmatic, well, just because I've, you know, been exposed to the brand since probably like 2018, I want to say, is the first time I ever tried Four Sigmatic. I didn't even know what that meant, but like in my mind it just goes to like mushroom coffee. So there's definitely like the resonance now. So you can't change it now. Yes. No going back. Yeah, correct. But like mushroom coffee is now a billion-dollar category. Yeah. Which is is insane, and you really pioneered a lot of that, having this, you know, kind of like first big brand of mushroom coffee. So I have to imagine that, that, you know, journey just as an entrepreneur, as a founder, a startup, that, that wasn't always easy. Can you talk a little bit about the story of how Four Sigmatic came to be and like building it in to be this 9-figure brand that it is today?

Yeah, so Four Sigmatic was started almost 13 years ago overseas, brought it to the US about 11 years ago, and 10 years ago launched the original mushroom coffee. And at that point, mushrooms were sold mostly for like immunity in capsule format, if at all, and it was not available in retail stores, yada, yada, yada. And I wanted to bring mushrooms, the healing powers of mushrooms to the world. And our original products were these elixirs we still sell them and some people absolutely love them. There's no caffeine, there's no sugar. It's just like mushrooms and herbs, but it's an acquired taste. It's basically like mushroom tea. And in Europe there's a big tea culture, but there's very little tea culture in the US. Right. And even people who drink tea, they don't really know the quality of a good tea and bad tea. Like, but every, even a truck driver in Indiana knows a bad cup of coffee. So it was by necessity almost to figure out, it's like, how can we mask the flavor of mushrooms without jeopardizing their health benefits? There was some brands that were trying to mix them with sugar, but then like that, it was like counterintuitive to the health benefits of these mushrooms. So I was like, how can I mask? But they're very like earthy and bitter, but there were two bitters that people love and there was chocolate and coffee. So that's what we started doing. We launched mushroom hot cocoa, which is still one of our bestsellers. And then a mushroom coffee, obviously just the, you know, hot cocoa industry's teeny tiny compared to the coffee one. So the coffee blew up and yeah, now some say, I read some study that it's like a $2.6 billion category. I know for a fact that it's at least a billion annual revenue, but yeah.

It's huge now. Yeah, crazy. Like a lot of people are getting onto it now, which is awesome. Yeah. What was the, like, the behind the scenes of like being the founder of a startup? You said you start— did you start it when you were in, in Finland? You mentioned it was in Europe. Yeah.

And bringing it to the US. In Finland. I was technically living in Switzerland at that point. I was still working.

Was it like you and a friend or you and your wife? Like what was the— I want to know like the nitty gritty of like how the raw side of really building the company.

Yeah, I had a, at the early days, I had two co-founders, Mikko and Mika, and we started a company. It was totally different company name, but the same concept of like doing these mushrooms and health and wellness. We also sold blenders and provided, sold bulk ingredients to US brands. So we would source these like mushrooms and adaptogens and sell them to existing brands. Miko and Mika both felt like it was not their world because we didn't basically have any salary for the first 2.5 years and they both needed money. So they chose other career paths. But by then we had hired, I think, 4 other people to join the team, very low pay. But there was already like employees at that point. And so when Mika and Miko left, they kind of rolled into, to the new company in 2014. So basically I started a new business in 2014 in the US that acquired the remaining things of, from the original entity. And then those employees rolled into the new thing. So, and at that point, you know, they were gone out of the business and they were not involved anymore and had to kind of like start fresh. But more importantly, like we, the us and the whole team where we're like foreigners, immigrants in the US with weird names that nobody can pronounce, with a weird company name that nobody can pronounce.

And no one knows what it means.

Yeah. And, and when you meet them, they're like full of energy and vitality, but they're just yelling that we're gonna get every American to drinking mushrooms. So there was, needless to say, there was not a lot of funding available to us at that point.

Yeah.

So you had to figure out like scrappy different ways to grow the business and keep the lights on for many, many years. But in a way it like helped us and in a way it hurt us. But at that point the category was not as mature as it is now. So a lot of like boots in the ground, groundwork was needed anyway.

Yeah. I feel like that's a side of entrepreneurship that not enough people really talk about is, I mean, you mentioned no salary, no pay for the per first like two some years. You know, I think you really have to like believe in the the vision and love what you're creating. And as the founder, I think maybe it's a little bit easier to have such a deep passion because it's your dream, it's your vision. But also, like, enrolling other people into that vision at a level where they're willing to sacrifice for it too is— it's a lot. Um, and I think you have to, like, maintain that vision and that hope and knowing where you're going. Were there ever times where you felt like, I really don't know if this is gonna work, or I might have to get a job to make money?

Like, what was that like?

Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Funny enough, not in the beginning, even though that was when it was undoubtedly the hardest. And I have all kinds of stories of like me living on other people's couches for a while and, and all kinds of crazy stuff. But in the beginning, I had some savings from— I worked in a large tech company in management consulting between before my previous, like, failed entrepreneurial efforts and this. So I had some money saved, nothing crazy. But I told myself is that I'm not committing to the success of the business, but I'm committing to the 2 best years of my life. So I said, is like 2 years all in, see what happens, give it a go. And so I was not stressing about the constraints because I knew there was like there was an end, right?

Right.

But when the 2 years came, there was so much momentum and things were going well and now you could pay some money. To at least cover the costs at that point, like you are on a roll. Sometimes people set so high goals or they see other people doing things on TikTok or Instagram that seem so hard to attain that they never take that initial action. So that was in a way my hack to take action without feeling the pressure on myself.

Was to give yourself that timeline.

Yeah. And I did all these cool things because in a way, because not having salary and not like I was also, we didn't have that much revenue. I had also unlimited freedom.

Mm-hmm.

I would not constrained by, you know, the pressure of other people or even success. Once you become successful, now you have all these things, people you gotta manage and things to do. So I used that freedom to like travel the world and do all these cool activities and things like that.

Yeah. I've heard a quote before, something like, when you're at the bottom, like you have the most amount of leverage cuz you have nothing to lose. So when you're like just starting, You're like, everything, everything's up from here.

Yeah.

Which is kind of a, a, I guess it's a, to your point of like not really worrying in the beginning and maybe worrying later on, like when you're first starting out, I feel like you're so committed to the vision and just so excited. Like I remember the excitement of first starting, like nothing was gonna stop me. You know, people ask me sometimes like, how do you keep going when it's hard? And I'm just like, I, I don't, how do you not keep going? Do you know what I mean? Like you're just so obsessed with it. You're so in love with it.

Hey, don't forget that every month we are picking a listener of the month to win $50 in cash just for showing love to the show. All you have to do is leave an epic review of the podcast on Apple Podcasts, screenshot the review before you hit submit, and DM that screenshot to us on Instagram @makeshifthappenpodcast. And that's it. I want to thank you for being such a loyal listener and show my appreciation by putting a little extra cash in your pocket. It. I know it's super easy not to do it, but every single rating and review seriously helps the show rank higher and reach new people, so we appreciate them more than you know. We'll announce the next winner at the end of the month and slide into your DMs if it's you, so keep an eye out and good luck. Love you guys, and thanks for supporting Makeshift Happen.

Yeah, it's a, it's a weird paradigm is when you're starting anything new you have the mind of a novice and the mind of a novice sees opportunities everywhere. The positive of that is that you have this passion and drive and excitement and joy de vivre, like you're just go, go, go, right? Because you can see opportunities everywhere. The negative is sometimes you lack focus and that happened with Four Sigmatic too. We did too many things. Looking back, we should have just done too diversified too early. Yeah. Diversified too early. We were selling to like 60 countries. We should have just sold to the US, you know, like a lot of things. But if you have the mind of an expert, you only see couple things that truly matter, but you also lose some of the, like the naive excitement that comes with it. Mm-hmm. So it's this paradigm and shift like in life and, or whatever you do. By the way, this has nothing to do with age. In my opinion, you can find a new thing in life a new field that you could have that, the mind of a novice with excitement and enjoy that too. But like in a business, there is a natural evolution that tends to happen. Like in the beginning it's like a band of pirates, you know, and slowly you mature as you go.

Yeah. Well, and I think like growing into your success and building a company also requires you to as you mentioned, like have more focus, but it's like about the priorities. And I think that's one of the biggest things that I've learned is there's a, there's always a million things that you could be doing, right? Like there's a million opportunities. You could be on YouTube, you could be on TikTok, you could be, you know, doing a podcast. You could like, there's so many opportunities of things that yes, you could be doing and they're all great ideas, but you have to really keep that like laser focus of what's gonna move the needle the most, what actually matters to the brand and the business right now. And especially, you know, bringing a family into things and having your kids. I'm, I imagine that your, you know, attention for what your priorities were had to narrow even more. Can you talk about the journey of like moving into fatherhood and having young kids while being a founder and building these businesses?

Yeah, obviously everybody has their own life story and you should write your own life story and there's no right or wrong at all. A pattern though that I've seen a lot is that people who gain success very quickly, be it in YouTube or entrepreneurship or whatever field, or an athlete— now there's a lot of college or sport, you know, pro sports athletes that get into trouble because they gain this money and success really at a young age, or they become a YouTuber. Suddenly they have this massive amount of money coming in, they don't know where it is. Somebody steals it and they do these like outside looking in, like very reckless things. It's like, why would you let this person manage your money? And why would you never look at your bank account?

Mm-hmm.

But they didn't mature into that. And then you look at some of the bigger successes, like Four Sigmatic has sponsored a lot of podcasts. So I'll use the examples of podcasts we work with, but like the Joe Rogans or the Tim Ferriss of the world, they didn't gain their current success at like a super young age, they actually like went through multiple evolutions in their career. And that's how I feel with myself as well, is like there's definitely been years where there's been this rocket growth, but by and large it's been like these like phases and step ladder step-ups, right? And I think nothing has probably been a bigger shift than becoming a parent. And it's like, it's like one of those things like God or psychedelics that it's like hard to explain in words what being a parent, having your kids and playing with them and what it means. Like it's almost hard to grasp that in the moment.

Mm-hmm.

But it is life-changing. And there's like anything else, there's pros and cons for business. Like it's definitely made me a better entrepreneur, a better leader. Like I was probably, because I was so focused on my career and my mission and my dharma that I was probably pretty harsh on people as a leader. I always took care of them, but I was very demanding of myself, but also others. Having kids, being a better leader, I feel like has happened. I also have to be way more selective about my time. I used to go to these networking entrepreneur events and masterminds, like every other week. Mm-hmm. And not to say that I didn't gain a lot from those events. I did, and I still do go to some, but you have to be a lot more selective. But yeah, you can't put in 80, 90 hours anymore either, right?

Yeah.

And there are days when you're pretty physically tired cuz you were up all night, right? So you gotta kind of, it's a different gear to be on. But it's been easier than I thought. It's been more— it's been better for career and work and my mission too than I thought.

That's hopeful. That's really nice to hear.

Yeah. I also noticed that American business culture is very supportive of parents, especially with young children. And I've thought a lot of like, why? I don't know. But like, when you tell, it's like, hey, I can't come in today because my kid is sick. I've never had anybody get angry at me. They're it's the opposite. When I've been vulnerable about the pressures of being a parent, people responded better. And I think it might be that it's relatable, but also it's safe to know that the counterparty is not some person who's going to leave out of a whim, but they have a house and a mortgage and 5 boxes of Legos or something. I don't know, but it's safe somehow. But I've been blown away by how supportive generally people are.

Is that in comparison to what you've experienced in, in Europe, you'd say?

European cultures are much more supportive of families as a society. There's no doubt about that. It's not even close to Americans. But in business environments, it's, it's a very different gear. And that's all probably a longer conversation about cultural differences between the US and Europe.. But broadly, like, you go to a train station or hotel or whatever, it's so kid-friendly in Europe and here it's not. But from a work setting, besides maternity leave and paternity leave, Europeans are also— they lack the gear to really go at anything. The Europeans are broadly pretty lazy. And this is coming from a European and one who's lived in 5 European countries. There's some notable exceptions, but generally, obviously, they don't work much. Yeah. So then also they don't work much.

This is so funny. My fiancé is Spanish, so we've lived in Spain for many years. So we don't—

but they also don't— like, they don't need to, and they enjoy life in other ways.

Like, yeah, they have a different set of priorities and, like, concept of what's important in life, for sure. I think what I've noticed is that that like there's better work-life balance, I would say. But that's also because I think they're given a lot more by the way that the society is structured and government and all of that. So they feel like they deserve to just like, you know, relax and live free and, you know, drink a beer on a terrace every Monday night. And yeah, it's just a different, a different outlook.

Are you living to work or working to live? Uh, Europeans for sure enjoy life more, but I think right now they are becoming in debt, in innovation debt. It's basically like they're living off the successes of many past decades. And because people have been given so much and they need to work so little and they're enjoying life, the lack of innovation and progress in Europe has been stifled for a long, long time. And now I feel like they're really paying the piper. And every time I go to Europe, I go once or twice a year. You see it more and more of like the struggles and you just look at like the salaries in, for example, Spain and cost of living. It's like even harder almost there to live. Mm-hmm. And without the support of your family, it's like, it's pretty brutal.

Mm-hmm.

And I think it's only gonna get worse in the next 5 to 10 years. Hopefully then it turns around.

Yeah. I was gonna ask you about how you felt about, um, raising your kids, you know, between like the two cultures and the two places, cuz there's lots of, pros and cons of both, but obviously being someone who's, you know, health conscientious and, you know, is in the wellness space, there's like a lot of that here, but also in terms of like quality of ingredients and foods and regulations and stuff, Europe is, is usually a little bit better about that. So it's just interesting like to meet someone else who, you know, does kind of like half of their life in America and half of their life is also attached to Europe to see your perspectives on how you view that in terms of like raising your kids and schools and like everything. I mean, it's just such a big conversation, at least for me and my fiancé, of we have no idea where we're going to want to live or how we're going to want to raise our kids because it's, it's kind of a toss-up. So what was that conversation like?

I mean, obviously with your business, it's kind of like you have to be where you have to be, but yeah, I would generally say is build your career and your wealth in the US and use it and spend it in Europe or somewhere else, you know. It's like And as far as kids go, US has superior schools both on higher education and alternative education. Like, our kids go to this extremely high-quality Montessori school, which is funny enough, is a European concept, right? And we did home births, and we chose a lot of alternative methods of parenting. And those alternative kind of like niche things are really hard in Europe. There's some, but you've got true., but it's really hard. The average education, like, talk about, like, public school on average or whatever, is superior to the American one. So in the US, the best is really the best, but the average is worse. Same with healthcare and health foods. Like, I haven't seen a store in Europe ever that is as good as Erewhon in the US or something like that., but playing at the average store is quite a bit better than here. So it's, US is just so, it's first of all very big, but there is huge differences versus the average baseline in Europe is much higher.

Hmm. Yeah. It's interesting to think about that. Like the, the best of the best in America is beats Europe, but like the averages are probably better over there.

And then same time with, with cultural things. Like if you are in a place where you wanna relax and you don't want your nervous system to be fired up all the time, then yeah, Europe is great. I mean, summers in Europe are awesome, but at the same time, it, for me personally as an entrepreneur and someone who tries to push the envelope at least to a certain point, like there's a lot of like the tall poppy syndrome thing happening in Europe where you're just not supposed to stand out. You let the government do the job. Don't you worry about that. We'll just do it like we've always done it.

Yeah.

It's so funny, Europeans are way more friendly to mushrooms, but then I would be in an airplane and tell someone that I do mushroom coffee and they're like, why would you ever do that? That's so dumb. So weird. And then you talk to American, you can tell that they have no clue what I'm talking about, about mushroom coffee. And they're still like, good for you. Yeah. They're stoked. They're like, you do you.

They're like, Oh, that's so awesome.

So happy for you. America is a very optimistic, very—

yeah, that's much more entrepreneurial.

Much, much more entrepreneurial.

Yeah, but that's also because it's facilitated, which it's not really made easy. At least I don't know about a lot of other European countries, but at least in Spain I know it's not facilitated. Like, it's made much harder for you to be an entrepreneur than to just kind of like follow.

Yes, there's, there's a lot of red tape in the U.S., but there's way more red tape tape and government regulation in Europe, way more. Yeah, which is crazy for American entrepreneurs, always complain about regulation and, and things like that and taxes.

And then you go to Europe and you're like, it's not even—

it's way more.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, way more. Okay, so speaking of like the transition into parenthood and finding that that was helpful for your leadership and there was a lot of good things about it in terms of entrepreneurship, but you mentioned like the time thing, obviously you don't have as much time Um, I'm curious what your kind of day structure looks like because you have 3 little ones right now. Um, yeah, what is like a day in the life kind of look like realistically, routines-wise? Are you a 5 AM club person? Are you like, I'm up at 3 because my baby is feeding? Like, I don't know, what does that look like for you? Give us the realistic rundown.

Yeah, obviously varied a lot depending on the kids' ages. Right now our kids are 4, 2.5, and 1. So they're all sleeping pretty much through the night. And, and what's working for us as a family right now is that I'm naturally a morning person. My wife is not. And she also like is still breastfeeding our youngest. So she will sometimes have to, not so much during the night, but there is more demands on her and other parts of the day. So So I tend to wake up at around 6, used to be 4 or 5, but now the baby sleeps until around 6 and I get up and between 6 and 7, you know, I play with him. The youngest wakes up first. We have some breakfast and then come by 7, the toddlers are up too. And same thing, you play with them, have breakfast. Get them ready for school, have some breakfast myself. And then just before 8, we leave to school. I drop them, the toddlers off. The baby stays with my wife. And I first thing, a lot of my team is on the West Coast. So come like 8:00 AM or 8:30, there's, you know, not all them are up. So I check some emails in Slack if there's anything urgent. But generally at that point I go work out. And I get that out of the way. So then come 9 or 9:30, I'm ready to go, but I've already had a workout in. And then I pretty much work until 5, and then I try not to look at my phone to my best ability, phone, computer from like 5 to 7, 7:30, and just spend time with the family, cook dinner. Um, yeah, play outside, maybe go for a walk with them, and then put one or two of them to bed. And then sometimes I work after that again, but, but yeah, depends on the day.

I need to be better about that 5 to 7 no phone boundary, close the laptop.

Yeah, that's been one of the best things.

I can just work until like 9 PM. Yeah, well, I was gonna ask you if it was different, like, like have those boundaries gotten better now because you have the kids and you're like, I need to be wasn't for that. I'm like, we need to have family dinners, and it's more urgent and important than when you were just doing your own thing.

Yeah, before I started this business, I did ultra running, marathons. I was in great shape. I worked out 9 to 12 times a week. Wow. And then I started a business. In a way, I could work out at any point, but I also didn't. Like, I would work out 3, 4 times a week, which is good, but like, I was not nearly in the shape. Now it's pretty much like 7 days a week I do something, it's because I'm limited. So that weirdly, because I have less time, I'm more consistent because I know that if I don't get it in right now, I will— it'll be hard for me to get it any time of the day. Yeah. So it's like there's this constraint. It's like a haiku poem, like you can only do this. So that's, that's been amazing. And then the other one is I do feel happier, healthier, better. That 5 to 7, like, dinner moment. Like, if I wouldn't have kids, I would probably try to do that still. It doesn't have to be then 5 to 7, it could be 6 to 8, but like the same idea of like, hey, like, the emails, phone calls, documents, writing, they never end. Yeah, right. Yeah. And, and just putting pause for a bit and allows you to process some thoughts. Sometimes I get great energies, like, we're out playing they're riding the scooters or we're feeding the chickens. And then, you know, I was like, oh yeah, that's actually a great idea. So I, you know, in the subconscious that you're probably still working a bit, but that's been a huge, huge help. And then I go to, I go to bed pretty consistently by come, you know, 9. Mm-hmm. It's rare that I'm up past 9 versus I used to work until 11. That's the other one is that then you're pretty wiped, you know?

Yeah. I have a suspicion that when I have less time, I'm going to be way better at managing it. But a lot of, a lot of moms have told me that too, like entrepreneurial moms, or like, once I had kids, it's like the baby is the 10x filter, and you're only really thinking about the things that are necessary, required, moving the needle, and also just being way more lasered in. And like nap time is like, you're suddenly like so hyperproductive in those 30 minutes because you're like, I'm not gonna get this at any other moment.

So Yeah. And the same is like before I was an entrepreneur, it was hard to imagine what like managing a million dollars feels like. It seems like very overpowering. Then you went as a million, it's not that crazy. Then you do 10, then you do like whatever, 100. Same with kids. Like when we went from like having one, the one felt a lot, then you got a two, it was like, oh, how are you gonna do this? But then you think like, now you're thinking about four. Yeah. When, when, when you had two, you're like, whoa, my life was so easy when I had one.

Yeah.

Yeah. And you get 3, it's like anything else. Like you will adapt to those circumstances better than you think. And our mind is such a limiting belief on what we can or cannot do. But when you're forced upon use it, then you usually rise up to the occasion. Yeah. More often than not. And then I think it's true with school too. Like a lot of people in high school thought they were really busy during high school. And then you look back to high school, they're like, I didn't do anything at high school. Yeah. I had so much free time.

Yeah, that's— I think about, like, I have that thought regularly about my life, but like knowing that I'm— because sometimes I'll find myself doing something, I get stuck in like a scroll on social media or something, and I'm like, I don't have any time, like, do all my things that I have to do. And I'm like, I'm gonna look back at this time in a few years when I have a baby and be like, what was I crying about that I did not have any time? I had so much time and I was wasting half of it. But I, I really do find that the more white space I have in my calendar the less productive I am, the more like things slip or deadlines are like getting extended. I think I do so much better with like just knowing that I have like a tight structure and schedule.

Yeah, or really good blocks. Like when I've written my books, for example, you can't just like turn on, turn off, turn on, turn off the writing. Like you do need dedicated space, but if you know that you only have this 4-hour dedicated space, you do get to the groove a lot faster versus knowing that you have 8 hours every day. So it, it does help, but sometimes you do need to block a little more time for creativity and certain type of tasks.

And also like speaking of creativity, just what you said about having that time off, you know, at dinnertime or being out playing with the kids or whatever, like some non-stimulation time where you're not, you know, in consumption mode or work mode. Sure. I mean, I think that always, is the thing that we think— if you're really like tunnel vision of, I have so much to do, I really have to get things done. I know myself, sometimes I'm like, the only thing that's going to make me feel better is taking some more things off of this list so that I feel like I'm making the progress. But oftentimes the thing that actually helps the most is stepping away and taking a break, because you get those like downloads or thoughts or like ideas. There's just so much clarity when you're not constantly being in like the stimulation mode. So whether it's like a walk and not listening to anything, like not listening to a podcast, not listening to music, or like in the shower even, just like those moments like where you're in non-stimulation, I find is when I'm like more connected to source and I'll like get really great ideas.

And back to the beginner, beginner's mind versus a more experienced mind. The beginner's mind sees options everywhere. So, but then you also a little bit maybe subconsciously or consciously insecure about like the fact that you are a beginner.. So you want to feel good about like being accomplishing things. So hitting the to-do list on and on and on makes you feel like this dopamine hit, like I accomplished something. Yeah. You might have accomplished nothing.

I think there's a lot of, or a lot of things that don't really matter that much.

It, that's what better say it. There's a lot of people I see online that they just do these things and it's not leading to anything. Versus like doing the one or two things obsessively over and over again and then having the confidence to step out for a bit and then come back to the one or two things versus trying to chase some to-do list. I think that's also the big difference of, of like that mindset.

Yeah, I think there's a discipline that's required of, like we said, like not chasing all the butterflies. There was a thousand things that you could be doing. There's so many. And I think those oftentimes The fun things are the things that you tell yourself are gonna like move the needle or make the difference, and they're not really. It's the boring consistency of knowing what actually works and having the discipline to like focus on that over and over and over again as a founder.

And that's the haiku poem is like, some say that that is the most creative form of poetry is because you have the constraints. So your mind forces you to come up with new ways to look at it. And so both being a parent or having the discipline as an entrepreneur to have that focus actually can increase the creativity. It's not, it's not this or that. You can have both. You can be creative and have the constraints. But if you keep chasing the new shiny object all the time, then yeah, maybe, maybe, uh, maybe you accomplish very little and you're not as productive either.

Yeah. What I feel like I saw a video of yours that was hilarious cuz it was just like a, it seemed like you were gonna share your morning routine. And then you're like, I wake up, I step on a Lego, like, okay, all these things. Obviously, being— having a wellness brand and living in Austin and, you know, being in the wellness space, there's such a big conversation around, as we're talking about priorities of founders and things like that, you know, the morning routine that's gonna like help you be successful. What has been your relationship with that, or your take on that, throughout your time as like an entrepreneur? Do you— have you ever cared? Has it— does it make a big difference for you? Did you used to like be really strict your morning routine and now it's just more flowing because you have 3 little kids?

Yeah, it's definitely oscillated. So I, uh, before I started the business, I was obsessed with like personal development and this was, I date myself, but like over 20 years ago I attended like 150 conferences. Mm-hmm. I read a few hundred books.

And how many times did you go to Tony?

Only once. I was 18. I got out of 18, 19. I got out of the Air Force. I went to his thing in London, traveled from Finland with a few friends, walked the fiery coals and stuff. But yeah, whole nother story there. But what I did a lot, and it gave me a sense of comfort, you know, when my life was very crazy. I lived in so many countries, all my surroundings were changing. So I feel like what is important is is safety and routine is important. So you got to find it in different ways. And what I also noticed that a lot of these morning routine people get wrong is that that becomes the thing. That is not the thing. The priming or the thing is keep the main thing the main thing. Now, does that mean that you could still have a morning workout? No, I think health is a main thing. So that absolutely— there's nuggets of truth everywhere there. But then when it starts to last few hours and there's meditation and journaling, this and that, it's like maybe suboptimal.

Yeah. To be honest, maybe temporarily it works, but I also think it makes you in some ways— well, not me personally, but because I'm not really like a morning routine person. I always do something for myself in the morning, but it kind of like looks different depending on the day. And mostly just revolves around either taking a long walk with the dog, like in the sunshine, or getting a workout in. But that's kind of the most complex that it gets.

So it's, it's, it's kind of like people talk about body language. It's like some people say it doesn't matter. Some people say it matters a lot. Like all this body language is more than what your verbal language is. And the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. And I same thing, same thing with this morning routine. The people who are obsessed with morning routines often forget what the main thing is. And then there's this anti-morning routine movement who ignores evolution. Like, we are still human beings wired by hundreds of thousands of years of evolution. So sunshine and like our nervous system and our different body functions, like, they, they do, you know, rise and go down during those hours, and they do impact your alertness, your mental acuity, energy, sleep. So those like morning routine and evening routine are vital to a certain extent to manage our evolutionary response in this weird modern world.

Otherwise you're probably— and kind of like the circadian rhythm, right? Of like, because we're— it's so— we have all the artificial lights and stuff now.

So that's what I mean is like, because of the modern setting and the lights we have, if you do— if you're not at some level mindful of your morning and evening routine, it will probably be negative to health. Yeah. Then people who use it for productivity and whatever, like, they often take it a little too far.

Yeah. What I was going to say is that you can become like dependent on it. And then if you're not able to do your like ice plunge and sauna and Wim Hof breath and whatever else, then you might feel like you're not in the energy of being able to work or be productive. And I think that's kind of a crutch too. But yeah, to your point, like there are certain things like the basics, you know, of like fresh air, sunlight, moving your body that are really helpful.

Yeah. And I own a sauna and a cold plunge at my house and I do a lot of these things too. They definitely serve a purpose. Yeah. It's, it's, but yeah, don't be dependent on it and then change it per season. So like, that's another thing I noticed. People are very fixated that they not just within life seasons, but, you know, spring, summer, fall, winter does not mean your routine should be the same because like there is a, there's phases in life when you want to be really productive and there's phases in your life when you're in recovery mode or creativity mode.. And in those phases when you're in creativity mode, maybe those morning pages and hour of journaling and meditation make a lot of sense. Yeah. Because you're like seeking some— that is the main thing at that point. Yeah. That phase. But you know, it's a phase.

I love thinking about it that way though too, because like, especially as women, we're like super cyclical and just like our, our being and everything. So viewing your routines and habits and stuff like that as well of, of being seasonal and cyclical. Rather than— because I think that's the— there is the obsession, you know, with the consistency of wanting to be a consistent person, of every day I do this. And so I think it's easy for people to start to feel discouraged if they can't stick to something the same way every day. But at least for me, I've found that it works better with a little bit of— like, there's me time that's blocked, but what I do in that time can kind of adapt or evolve and not always look the same.

Yeah, capitalism is great, but capitalism and patriarchy has been obsessed with productivity, standardization, and these things that ignore us human beings and our evolution. I think the feminine wisdom is a lot in being present to the moment, to be it whatever the moon cycle is like and how that impacts you and your life, and being fluid in adjusting to whatever is present at that moment. And yeah, I, I think a lot of these productivity experts definitely are young single males. Yeah. You know, and with podcasts. Yes. Uh, and it, it's a very one lens that has value, but I think the more feminine wisdom is probably a little more intuitive.

Hmm. Yeah, for sure. So living in Austin, I'm sure, and having a wellness brand to just be really being in the space, I'm sure you've seen a lot of of the wellness trends. You've probably been exposed to all of it. You probably do a lot of it. So I wanted to finish with a little rapid-fire wellness trends. I'm gonna just list them off and you can tell me if you love them or if you think that they're overrated. Sure.

Um, by the way, overrated might mean there's still value there, but they're just right.

Yeah, there's going to be nuance to every single— if you really feel that you need to go in depth, you can give us the nuanced answer. Yes. So we're calling it Forage or Forget.

Forage?

Forage or Forget. Just to kind of play off of the mushrooms.

Sure.

I love that. So forage is something that you would—

Yeah, that's clever.

You would pick up and you would take on. Forget means you don't need it or you think it's over there.

Yeah.

Okay. So we'll start with cold plunging.

I would forage that.

Yeah.

Temperature. We are still humans of evolution. So temperature, hot, cold, doesn't matter.

Better. The question— follow-up question, I'm already ruining the rapid fire. Um, does your wife cold plunge?

Yeah, she's hardcore.

Really?

And she said she did, uh, 3 unmedicated births, and I think she's— she credited like cold plunging to withstanding the pain.

Wow. Oh my gosh, that's so interesting. Yeah, I'm, I'm like on the side of traditional Chinese medicine that's like the womb should be warm, but That's because I don't like the cold.

She doesn't do it.

This is a great excuse for me to not have to cold plunge.

Yeah, there's phases when she doesn't do it.

Yeah, I'm sure of her menstrual cycle and things like that. Okay, what about red light therapy? Forage. Forest bathing.

Definitely forage.

I figured. For anyone that doesn't know what forest bathing is, can you explain it?

Uh, I think it's popularized by the Japanese, but it's definitely a very Scandinavian thing. But you basically just wander around in the woods woods. In Finland, there's this everyman's, every person's rule where you can go to any forest. So even we own forest, anyone can go there and pick our mushrooms and berries. So it's like common, it's for everyone. You can't like own it.

You can't own it.

You own the trees because there's money in trees, but like you can wander around in any forest.

That's kind of like the beaches in Spain. They're not allowed to be private. Everything must be public. It's like, this is the land, so it's for everybody.

Yeah.

Yeah, very similar. Okay. Psychedelic mushroom ceremonies.

That's really hard. I would want to say overate it and forget because I'm the biggest advocate of psilocybin. I just think that how they're commercialized on people making these ceremonies, you should just take heroic dose and go in the woods by yourself 2 times in life. So I think these ceremonies broadly are overrated. That doesn't mean the psilocybin is overrated, it's underrated, but the ceremonies are overrated.

Forget. Yeah. Okay. What about tracking macros?

Um, right now, this last year, I've definitely forged that. I've been into it. I, yeah, normally I would say forget, but I would say as I age I need to be more mindful of calories just as your metabolism slows down. So yeah, that too. I've been forging a lot of these actually.

You are? What about mouth tape?

Forget. I'm a nose breather. I used to run, doing a lot of my runs just breathing through my nose. I'm huge on nose breathing, but I think the mouth taping is ignoring the more important practice, which is during exercise. So forget the tape.

Okay, interesting. That's good news for me because I hate anything on my face while I'm trying to sleep. Great. Uh, what about like wearables like the Oura Ring or Whoop?

Uh, forget. And I was an early investor in Oura.

And me wearing my Oura— I, uh, not sponsored, clearly.

Um, I, I think it helps in the beginning. Like when I started running, I would wear the, uh, the heart rate monitor all the time, and you would learn about zones and how— what's too fast, what's too slow.

But then once you know it, you can kind of just like manage yourself.

Yeah, you don't see pro runners, rarely they ever wear anything. They know exactly at what zone they're in. And sometimes in race day, your heart rate goes higher than what your zone is, but you're totally fine. It's just like the stress of that moment. So yeah, I personally forget.

Forget. Okay. What about cacao ceremonies? Maybe if we threw some mushrooms in there, you might be a forage.

I would forage that. Yeah. I, if I wouldn't sell mushrooms, I would be a chocolatier. If there's one thing I'm better at than mushrooms, I'm probably making chocolate.

Oh really?

I'm really good at making chocolate. Wow.

Man of many talents. Yeah. Okay, last one. Butt sunning.

Forget. Yes. Forget. Yeah. Naked in the sun, you know, going— our kids are naked the whole summer at our farm and they just go swimming and walking around the woods barefoot. Yes, with that. But for the butt, it's pretty sensitive part of the body. You know, you gotta be pretty careful.

Yeah. I don't— I think people are like serious about it, but I'm also not sure if it's just like a big joke. But it seems like it's a thing that people are really doing, maybe in small dosages.

But yeah, yeah, it's definitely not a priority, I think.

All right, well, that was our Forage and Forget. Thanks for playing, Tero. It was so awesome having you on. Thank you so much. I loved this.

Yeah, thanks for having me on. That was lovely.

Yay!

Well, that wraps up another episode from our Austin tour where we got to record live in person with some incredible guests, more of which are still yet to come. If you enjoyed this conversation, please please, please, please head over to my Instagram right now at Samantha Daily. It'll take you just a few seconds and comment shrooms under the trailer video for this episode to win a free box of Four Sigmatic goodies. I first used Four Sigmatic products back in 2018 when I was in my wellness blogging era back living in Madrid, and I've loved them ever since. So this is very full circle. I'm currently taking their Calm Organic Mushroom Complex supplement for stress relief, and I'm also using their peanut butter protein that's packed with superfoods foods, probiotics, greens, fruits, and mushrooms. And it actually tastes so good.

I was genuinely surprised by like how sweet and creamy it was.

So I'm loving those. And Taro has been generous enough to offer up some epic free goodies for you guys from Four Sigmatic, along with free shipping directly to your door. So go leave a comment now to enter to win. As always, your engagement on the trailer videos on social media helps show our guests that the audience is loving their episode, and it also helps position us to be able to get other amazing guests on the show. So thank you guys for commenting and sharing. It means the world. All right, love you guys.

Stay tuned.

We will see you next week. If you loved this episode, make sure to check out the show notes where I've linked a few similar episodes I know you're also going to love. You'll find them under the similar episodes section in the description down below with direct links so you can dive in and start listening right away or add them to your queue for later. Binge away for even more growth growth, expansion, abundance, and fire motivation.