Have Men Gone Soft? Why Hyper-Independence is Killing Your Love Life w/ Monica Yates

Welcome to the Makeshift Happen podcast. I'm your host, Samantha Daly, entrepreneur, life coach, and your no BS bestie, here to bring you all things mindset, manifestation, and personal development. This podcast is designed to help you expand your mind and uplevel your life. So turn the volume up and roll the windows down if you're coming along for the ride. Let's go make shit happen. Okay, welcome back to the show, Monica. I'm so excited that you're here. We just spent so long catching up. Um, sorry, we did not record that for you guys, but so many personal life updates.

No one needed that. No one needed that.

A lot of things going on in our lives, a lot of things to catch up about. But welcome back to the show. I'm so excited that you're here. And I'm actually really looking forward to this conversation because like I was saying to you, these are topics and things that I also feel quite strongly about, have my own opinions about, and I feel like we really need to bring this to the show. And you're the perfect person to give us the vehicle to do that. So welcome on.

Thank you. I feel like we should set a trigger warning though, in case anybody else gets triggered by the episode, because I know I can have that effect on people. So I think everyone just needs to listen with an open mind and remember that their triggers are always a doorway to growth.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

I was telling Monica before the show, you guys, we don't get many negative reviews, which— thank you so much, I appreciate you. But we— I do remember one specific negative review about an episode that we did in the past with Monica because someone— it's just kind of her natural effect. She's a very polarizing character, but it's important. And then you guys know I always say like polarize to magnetize. Like, I think that we really should be standing in the truth of who we are and what we believe, and that it's so, so important. So I'm really excited to bring her back on the show to continue to voice these opinions, because I also believe that they are really important in shaping the way that women and men move through the world and how we can live in more harmony and feel more balanced. And I know there's so many women that are desiring to feel safe, secure, protected, led by the men in their lives. They want to relax into their feminine energy, but there are certain things that we've been taught or programmed with that are stopping that from happening on both the side of women and men. So those are some of the things that we're going to unpack in today's conversation. But I first kind of want to start with, um, like, for you, Monica, what do you think really shaped your idealization of hustle, ambition, and masculine energy and that kind of obsession with, you know, wanting to be seen as the cool girl who didn't need any help? And how did that actually start to deteriorate the quality of your life and relationships? Like, just take us back a little bit because we're going to talk about feminine energy, but we first need that like initial picture, which was you were not aligned with that at all.

No, I was like, I describe myself as a cold, hard bitch and like my mom will fully back me in that. And, you know, when you— even if I look back at old pictures, like, you can see the energy difference. Like, I was not warm. I was extremely cold. I was extremely just like hard in my energy. And part of it was the fact that I really put my dad on a pedestal. I mean, love him to death. He's here right now doing my veggie batch for me, which I'm so grateful for because he's a really good veggie gardener. But, you know, I grew up in Australia and also New York, and I honestly think that it was partly the movies too. You know, back in the day we were watching these movies where it was very much like the women going to the office. And like, one of the movies I loved— I don't know whether you ever watched it— was View from the Top. And like, Gwyneth Paltrow was like the main character in it, and she was flying around the world. And I just really idolized this, this hustle. Like, she was hustling. She was always on a plane. She was always in a different place. She had— she couldn't hold on to a romantic relationship because she was moving all the time, but she lived this glamorous life of being in Paris and then New York and then London and flying, you know, like flying first class as the hostess and all this kind of stuff. And so I used to watch that movie over and over, and I just think about the programming of that, over and over and over again on my— I— what was it called? Like the iPod? Oh my God, like, you know, like the fat iPod? Yeah, like the iPod Movie, that one where the screen was a little bit bigger but still to this day like literally the size of our fingernail. Um, I used to watch that over and over and over again when I was younger, so I think partly was it was the movies and just, you know, what we would see in magazines and all that kind of stuff of back when you were reading magazines. And it was just like, oh, I just wanted to be a girl boss. And you would see these other moms that were working moms at school, and it's like, my mom wasn't a working mom. And so you always want what you don't have, right? Um, but then especially when I was living in New York, I think that had a really big impact on me because I was little, little when we were living there. I was living there until I was 7 years old. But my dad worked in the Rockefeller Building, like the Rockefeller Center, in one of the buildings there. And we would go in— I still remember it— we would go in and see Dad in the office. And it was like my favorite days when Mom would take me in and we'd see Dad in the office. And it was like everybody was working. And then, you know, Dad had his like assistants and blah, blah, blah. And it was just this— it was an idolization, right? It was just, oh my God, this seems so cool. This seems so glamorous. This seems so amazing. I want this too. And my mom is just like one of those moms that's very loving, very giving, just like made to be a mom, right? So when I was younger, I couldn't appreciate that because, you know, we didn't know how to appreciate that. And instead I really took it as like smothering, overbearing, and like not cool, right? She is a Cancer. She's a lot more emotional. She's a lot more empathetic. My dad is like He's a Leo, and he's the furthest thing from empathetic and emotional. Like, he'll all of a sudden, like, release his soft side. But I, I— it was the classic case of, you know, Dad wasn't around, he was working all the time, he would travel for 3 weeks on end. So of course I wanted his love more. And so then I also internalized it as, okay, well, if I become like Dad, and if I hustle like Dad, and if I get a job like Dad, then I'll be loved by— I'll be loved by Dad, and then like I'll be good enough essentially, and I'll be cool. So I think there was a lot of layers to it, um, but you know, I didn't really realize that it was negatively impacting me until I was, um, really getting my business off the ground. And I was then living in Sydney at that point. I'd moved from Melbourne to Sydney. I was maybe like, oh, 20 years old. I was recovering from this bad ski accident that I had that ski accident in and of itself was just like the universe trying to get me to slow down. Because actually what happened was a snowboarder ran into me, but before the ski accident, I was pissed that the fam— like, my family that I was skiing with was going too slow. And it was like, that right there is like the metaphor of just the masculine, right? Of like, too slow, too slow, too slow. And how we think of the feminine, like, too slow. And then this beginner snowboarder actually ran into me, and then I— and then I had to drop all my independence because I couldn't bathe myself, I couldn't get my own glass of water, I couldn't turn myself over in bed. Like, I was fully debilitated from this ski accident. And then of course I had to move back home because I was moving out of home and have Mum look after me and all that kind of stuff. And then after that, I was really working on getting my coaching business off the ground. And I, I remember this one day when I was living in Sydney and I went outside and I just like started crying because I felt like, oh well, if I move to Sydney from Melbourne, then I'll have all these friends and I'll be by the beach and it will be again like glamorous. Like, I just wasn't realizing the reality of what it takes to actually build a life for yourself. And I just internalized it as all of these different things. Long story short, I would see everybody else kind of being able to have a social life on the weekends and whatnot, and I was ashamed that I didn't have that social life, that I was just burying myself in work. But then it was this catch-22 of I buried myself in work so that I didn't feel the pain of not having that social life and the friendship group and the love and whatever that I wanted. Um, and then eventually I ended up just like being forced into a state of surrender because I went to a, um, I was having phantom pain in my leg. For anyone that doesn't know what that means, basically it's like you are having this pain from things that you think are like, like for me it was like I thought things were touching my leg but nothing was actually touching my leg. And so it was becoming like pretty mentally debilitating. And I couldn't wear like pants or anything like that because anything that would like remotely get close to my leg, even if it didn't touch it, would just like send my nervous system into a spiral. So I went to this brain guy and he told me to fucking meditate. And I was like, dude, I am meditating. Like, that was his only advice. And it was a $600 appointment and I got nothing out of it and my card declined. And that's when I was just like, I—

the wake-up call.

Like, I need to do something. Yeah, I need to do something different because me trying to push at making my business work and like— and the thing is, I'm sure you can agree, Sam, there is an element of pushing and hustling and you've got to show up, you've got to put the hard work in when your business is trying to grow. I was past that line though, right? Like, I wasn't actually just putting the work into the lowest hanging fruit and what was working. I was literally trying to kill myself because the more I literally had this thing in my head of the more work I do, the harder that I work, and the less of a social life I have, the more successful I am. Like, that was my full-on belief that I had in my head. I was proud that I was working from 6 AM because I would wake up really early for European clients. I was proud that I was working from 6 AM to 10 PM. Like, that's fucked up, but I was proud because of what I thought that I was then gonna get from my dad. Didn't last long, which was a good thing. And that's then when I really got into the somatic work and healing, all of that kind of stuff. That's then what set me on the trajectory. And then very quickly, obviously, everything changed in my business, and now we're here.

What was the— what was your single life and kind of like dating life like when you were in that stage of being somewhat stuck in that hyper-masculine state and rejecting the feminine? What kind of men did you attract? Okay, what were the dating experiences like?

Okay, so this is— I've got a really good story of just kind of like the before and the almost. So the guy that I was dating when I was very early on and kind of starting to get into this work— I actually met him at a Tony Robbins event, funnily enough, um, and he was super into the masculine and feminine, which is part of— I literally mentioned him in my book, actually. I've mentioned him before. I've tried, I've emailed him to be like, would you come on the podcast, like, and talk about how I used to be? And he doesn't want to do that anyway, um, but I met him and he was really into, like, the feminine and masculine stuff. So that is what made me aware that even existed. And that's what started giving me this kind of like permission slip of, oh, these like really deep cravings I have to be like, you know, to have this like hero, to have this man that's protecting me and providing for me and me being able to soften, like, oh, that's attractive to some men. Because I had that in me all like the whole time, but I shamed the shit out of that part of myself because I really thought that is so not being a good feminist. That's not being cool. That's so weak. Like, full— just like weakness, right? The epitome of weakness, that you want a man to provide for you and protect you and like really love you and make you feel safe. Um, and so, you know, he— I, I had a boyfriend before that as well that I met, um, when I was becoming a ski instructor, and he was just like the epitome of a feminine man, basically, because back then I was also like super in my hypermasculine. So that was not a vibe. Uh, and then the next um, boyfriend that I had was this guy, and I hadn't gone into my feminine yet. I looked feminine, like I wore feminine outfits, my hair was always curled like the same way that it is now, but my energy was absolutely not feminine. He didn't tolerate that though, so he was really like the first guy that, um, you know, I don't even know how to explain it.

Almost like see through the mask and wanted to—

underneath Exactly. He definitely could see through that mask. And so he was like a catalyst for me in that sense. He would not put up with my hyper-masculinity when I was trying to control a situation or plan something out. Like, he was very, very putting his foot down, speaking up, like boundaries, all that kind of stuff. Now, I didn't know how to receive that because just my nervous system— till— still, that felt so unsafe. So that would also cause a lot of arguments, right, where I just saw that as like him being an asshole and controlling and blah blah blah. But there was also that part of me that was like, I really like this and this is also sexy. So there's a lot of confusion going on in me, right? Anyway, long story short, he wasn't like— he wasn't that true, true, true masculine man. He actually was very much like what the books say, right? Which is great until you have a ski accident and then it's like my problem that I'm not phoning him enough and don't want to talk to him. But I'm like in the middle of the most depressed phase I've ever been in my life, right? And this is like a week after my accident and I can't even wipe my own ass.

So that he's being like, what, like needy for attention and kind of giving you that, that feeling of like—

Yes, very needy. I remember we were in Beaver Creek, um, cuz my family kept skiing whilst I was recovering. And, um, and I remember he was like texting me or he phoned me and he was like, you need to phone me more. Like, and I said, well, I don't want to because I'm fucking depressed. Like, I don't want to talk to anybody. And he actually ended up breaking up with me in that same phone call. And I actually wasn't angry. I remember I was in my bedroom and my parents were like in the kitchen, and I came out and I was upset, but I was also just like, fuck you, because if you can't hold space when I'm going through something like this and make this like about yourself— like, I have nothing to say to you about my day. Like, I've stayed in bed all day. Like, I can't move. Like, blah blah blah. So that then ended, which was obviously a good thing. Um, and that did make me— and you know, now that, that also then got me further into this work and everything. And what that made me realize, and I, you know, I'm kind of passionate about talking about this, of like, just because a man ticks the boxes of like masculine, just like when a woman ticks the boxes of like what feminine is, doesn't actually mean that he is in his masculine or that she is in her feminine. So then the next guy I started dating, which was after I then got into all dramatic work and everything. I remember I was on his sofa. So Sam, I had never been able to— prior to this, I had never been able to put my hand on a man, like go kiss a man. Like, I could never— if even if he was my boyfriend, I could never show any signs of intimacy. I could never be—

meaning like initiating?

It would like— correct, yes. I could never initiate intimacy, but also I could never ask for a kiss. I could never say— I could never actually say what I wanted. I could never say, you know, this would make me feel really good. It was just always kind of like, whatever you want, whatever you want. Or like, again, playing the cool girl, right? So I would just sit there on the sofa being happy to not be touched for 2 hours while still watching a movie, when actually I really wanted a fucking cuddle, right? So then the next guy I dated, I was at his house, and I remember I was able to put my hand on him and that, like, me put my hand on him. And I remember afterwards just being like— I can't remember clear as day— I was like, oh my God, like, the night and day switch from getting out all of my rage and my anger and my pain from men, right? Like, it was literally like days after I went to a somatic retreat where I just was able to finally get all of this shit out and actually realize that like men want a soft feminine woman. And then really everything just started snowballing from there. And that's when I— that's when like the business picked up and I really was able to like tap into my gifts and then start channeling all of these modalities and blah, blah, blah. And now, however many— that was like 2018. So now, now we're here.

Okay. So this idea that you just said of how men want a soft feminine woman, I think there will be people listening being like, I think men also want like a confident woman, want an empowered woman. Yeah, a lot of men say they want an independent woman, but then when they get her, they're like, um, don't actually want that. So what does it mean? Because you talk about in the book, uh, being like an empoweredly submissive feminist. What does this mean and how does it kind of align with this idea of being able to, yes, be the soft feminine woman, but also, of course, hold your own ground.

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So firstly, what men actually want is— yes, and this is a generalization— what men want is they do want an independent woman in the sense of they want a woman that they do not have to constantly be worried about looking after, mothering, taking care of, blah blah blah. They want to know that you can get on a plane by yourself and get from A to B and not have a meltdown and, and need him to be handing— to be holding your hand the whole time. That's what they want. But what they don't want is the woman that's like, I got it, I got it, I got it, I got it. They want to be needed and never letting Yeah, exactly. And never letting him come in. So it's really knowing, like— and this is just about, you know, being connected to yourself— it's knowing when you need to lean on your independence and then when you actually can let that go and let him help you. And that's the beautiful thing about being like a modern feminine woman today, is that we have that privilege of sometimes going and being independent, but then— and many women don't tap into this other side that they still are craving. We also have this, this ability to then soften when we want to soften. And so many women have just gone too into the independent where they don't know how to come out of that independence instead of being able to just go into it when they need it. But in terms of the empowered submissive phrase, so basically what I have realized over the years of doing all of this is that only the most deeply confident and empowered women can actually surrender and be submissive in a sexy, healthy way to a man. Because if you do not have the confidence and the ability to say no or to speak your truth because your throat is so blocked, you will not feel safe to truly relax into your feminine. But if you do, then you're like, I don't want to do shit, and I'll tell you if I do want something done differently. That's the empowered submission, right? Where you get to consciously choose to fully relax into your feminine and let him do— like, let him make the plans, let him take you to the dinner, let him make the decisions, blah blah blah. And if you want to jump in and be like, nope, don't like that, or actually I know what I want to do in this moment, then you can. That's a truly empowered woman. And some women might know this even because this has kind of become a little bit more talked about in recent years, but very often the most empowered women in the workplace that are like very high achieving, um, really climb the corporate ladder, they will want to be the deep, like, really, really submissive in the bedroom. Like, in terms of that sub-dom, it's like stuff that, you know, probably you or I, because we're not necessarily like super in that kind of like overly masculine all day because we're not in that environment, we wouldn't want that. Like, I'm talking like they want to have— they want to be like dragged by their hair along the floor kind of thing. Because, right, and it's funny to us, but when you think about it, it's like, imagine being that woman that is so in her masculine all the time that she's like having to deal with a board of 50 men, right? Yeah, when she gets home or when she's like being intimate with a partner, she wants to literally like turn off every cell in her body and just receive pleasure, you know? So it's, it's understanding that it doesn't mean that every woman listening to this needs to desire that, because like, I don't desire that, right? But it's just understanding that, that deep craving that a lot of us have when we're in our masculine, to just like that feminine urge we talk about, right, of like having chickens and just baking muffins all day. There is some truth about that feminine urge, and a lot of us aren't giving ourselves permission to listen to it.

Yeah, and speaking of the feminine urge, like, obviously there's the, like, tradwife trend that we're seeing on social media now where it's like this glamorization of stay-at-home moms. And, and I think there's a big kind of, like, resurgence of people coming back to more traditional values when it comes to the roles of men and women. But your work is obviously really for the women who want to live somewhere in between, who want to kind of be in that balance of the gray. We want to be somewhere between, like, girl boss, Miss Independent, don't need no man, do everything by myself, and the kind of like tradwife, stay-at-home mom, like everything is a devotion to just family and cleaning and kids. Um, they want to be able to have a career and a purpose and make money, but they also might desire to be a mom and a wife and a great lover and to be cherished in that way. And they kind of want that freedom and flexibility to also adjust and flow right between those two sides of themselves depending on what season of life that they're in, because You and I can probably both relate to that as business owners, especially. There's certain seasons where you feel more of that, like, fire, you feel more of that hustle, you know it's a work season and you're happy to be in that energy. And then there's other times where you really want to be in your softness, like you're about to have a baby, you're coming into motherhood. I'm sure that's like changing things. And so, oh yeah, your work is really about like, right, being able to like have both and do both, but understanding those seasons. What do you think is getting in most women's way from actually being able to make that the reality and be living in the gray, living in the in-between?

Permission. Like, 100% permission. And I say that because, you know, so many women think men are the problem, men are judging us, men are holding us back. I'm like, no, no, no, men aren't the problem, men aren't holding us back. You know what's holding us back? Other women. The judgment from other women. I mean, you— all you have to do, I'm sure you can agree with me, Sam, is look at especially some of these tradwife accounts, right? Or, you know, when you see a reel where a woman is proudly like, I— like, my man is the breadwinner, I have no desire to be the breadwinner. And you see the horrible comments from other women, not men, left to this woman of just wait till he cheats on you, just wait till he's bankrupt, just wait till this, just wait till that. And I have goosebumps because I'm like, that's the problem. Men don't give a fuck. Honestly, men don't care what we do with our lives. Truly, they don't. Because if you understand men, you understand they are single-focused, right? Like, they are— like, they are not even aware of half of the things that we are aware of because they are focused on what is right in front of them. They are staying in their own lane. They have no need for this, like, queen bee syndrome of being the top dog of needing to like, um, you know, shout like my beliefs and whatever on Instagram. They just keep to themselves. And so honestly, it's permission. And so many women, the reason why we don't give ourselves permission is, yes, our past and trauma and all of that, but it's also— and I think social media has had a really big influence on this— it is the fear of judgment from other women. Really, that is what it is. And it's us not feeling confident enough and safe in— safe enough in ourselves and in our own body to be like, you know what, this is what works for me, so this is what I'm doing. And I say this even on the seasons note, right? I was talking to somebody else on their podcast about the breadwinner conversation and how she, for example, had had a conversation with her husband and they decided that she was going to be the breadwinner, but she was noticing lately that like some stuff was coming up about it and resentment. And I was talking to her about seasons and how she wasn't giving herself permission to realize that as women we are so seasonal, right? But even just as humans. So the conversation that you had 3 years ago with your husband of being okay to be the breadwinner, you're allowed to now want to go into a different season of life and that no longer align. And I think women get afraid of that because really it's just self-judgment. We think our husband or so-and-so is going to judge us. And yeah, maybe the random chick on Instagram or your girlfriend is going to judge you, but you know what, that's more of her problem than it actually is your own problem. When we have that fear of judgment, we, we actually need to realize that it's really us judging ourselves. Like, we are the worst critic of ourselves. And when you start giving yourself permission to be human, to be a woman, to be seasonal, and you have self-compassion towards yourself, then you can stop judging yourself.

Yeah, like, to even change and evolve, right? Like, I think it's seen as a really bad thing to, like, go back on your word. Or to like be contradictory to like change your goals, something that you said that was really important before. But like, I think if you're not— if who you are today is not a direct contradiction to who you once were 6 months ago, a year ago, a few years ago, then you're probably not really growing, right?

So, amen.

Of course we're going to be in contradiction with something that we said or believed 5 years ago.

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Yeah, and I even say that, like, you know, it's been really challenging right now doing all this book stuff because, like, being pregnant, I'm like, I actually don't want to do this. Like, really, truly, honestly, I don't want to do this because the, you know, like, being pregnant, I'm like, I actually just want to, like, be in my garden and bake muffins. And like, that's the season that I'm in. So I'm like, I can't cannot wait for May and June to be able to just like do a bit of work and then bake my muffins or whatever. But then that's also then going to change again in 6 months' time or in a year's time. I could then be in a different season of life. And we need to give ourselves permission as women to sometimes change our goals, to sometimes change our manifestations, to sometimes just honestly surrender to our intuition and stop thinking that like what we said we had to achieve 6 months ago we then have to do. If that's not feeling aligned anymore— not being lazy— if it's not feeling aligned anymore, you're allowed to change it.

Yeah, so good. I want to talk about men, and specifically I want to know why, like, why have men become so soft in your opinion, and how is it hurting not just women but society as a whole?

Uh, toxic masculinity, in my opinion. And also women being so girl boss, Miss Independent, I can do it myself, I don't need a man. I mean, I think there's— I really think there's two parts of it, right? I mean, I could also then say like the way that boys are being raised as well, but let's just park that one to the side. Let's focus on the first two. So I mean, yeah, when you think about it, we have come in as women and we are able to do everything ourselves, which is fucking amazing, right? Because we didn't used to be able to do that. And I'm so grateful that we have the choices to be able to do everything ourselves and not rely on a man. But what it's also done is it's also ripped men's purpose out from underneath them. Back in the day, it was very clear this is their purpose, right? They bring home the bread, they are the providers, they are the protectors. They're out hunting, they're killing the animals, they're bringing them home, they're at the bank, whatever, they're making money for their family, they're doing their things, right? Extremely clear purpose. Now women are out doing that, and we're like, we don't need you to protect us, we don't need you to provide for us, we don't need you to bring home the bread. And so, and you know, when you think about it, we still have this purpose as women that's like never going to be taken away from us of bringing children into the world, of being a mother, right? Of like literally birthing a human. They don't have that. And so their purpose of providing and protecting is really, really important to them because if we keep taking that away, it's like, well, what is left for them? So a lot of men are just confused, like, what is my role If you can do everything yourself, ladies, it's like, literally, what is his role? And so even in my relationship with my husband, like, yes, I make the money, I'm the breadwinner, whatever, but he— I actually said to him this morning, I was like, I truly just feel like you are my provider and protector, because even though I'm the one bringing in the money, I'm not the one organizing the money, dealing with the mortgage, phoning the banks, like, doing all of this other stuff that truly, to me, that is actually more about being the provider and the protector. And I've really ensured in our relationship, and for myself as well, because I don't want to feel like the provider and the protector, that all of those things, they are in his camp, right? I don't need to be— I don't need to be worrying about even— even when it comes to like buying a car, I don't need to know the intricate details of like why this car is good versus this car. That's a him thing, because he— that like, I am giving him the space to be the provider and the protector. And the problem is, for a lot of women, we aren't giving men this space to be men. We are just doing all ourselves. The catch-22 is we're all fucking exhausted and burnt out because we are trying to be both the woman and the man. And here's the thing, like, even as women, we are still— there is still a part of us that's like the provider and the protector, especially when we have children, right? Like, like, you know, a lioness is obviously protecting and providing for her cubs. It's just in a different way. And I think that's the really key thing to understand, because if we— you know, there's so many different ways that we can go about this, but the bottom line is that I think a lot of women— you know, it's not that you have to, like, you know, be in your feminine in a certain way or fit yourself into another box. I'm not about that at all. But it's more so that, like, our anger as women and our trauma and our unsafety in our femininity causes us to take on the role as a man. And we don't want to, but we do it because it's like, well, if I don't do it, no one's gonna do it, or I'm gonna do it better than he's gonna do it. And we don't trust them. So that's one side of it. Another side of it is definitely the toxic masculinity piece. I mean, you think about it, Sam, if it was all over the news of toxic femininity, like, how would that make you feel as a woman? Hey, hey, like, truly If it was like, if you want to, you know, surrender to your man, if you want to be creative during the day, if you want to be just, you know, not having a job and baking muffins, you're toxic, you're engaging in toxic femininity. Think about like, that is horrible, like truly horrible. And so in my opinion, toxic masculinity is toxic. The purpose of why toxic masculinity was created has now come so far, kind of like feminism has come so far from the original truth. When toxic masculinity was actually created, that was a term used to describe men that were truly being extremely abusive to other men and also other women. But now it has come into— if you hold open a door for a woman, toxic masculinity. And here's the thing, like, but it's a joke, right?

I think any, any sort of show of male ego, people will go, oh my God, toxic masculinity.

Well, do you know what's really sad? In the U.S., the American, uh, Therapist Association, um, like in their guidelines, they actually say that if a man shows any signs of traditional masculinity, you should veer him away from that because it's dangerous.

That's crazy.

Could you imagine? Like, imagine being— and here we are trying to be like, men, men's mental health, men's mental health, and I'm like This is not men's mental health. A man is now sitting, you know, with PTSD or just, you know, you know, an unhappy marriage in a therapist's office trying to get help, and he's actually now worried, am I— is my masculinity going to be taken away?

If we're telling them—

because this therapist—

we're telling them that we want them to be more emotional, right? And that that's going to solve the problems, that's going to give them more of a purpose in the relationship, it's going to fix their marriage or feel more connected with their partner if they could just be more emotional, be more emotional, like be more connected, be more tapped in. And so pushing them more into the feminine. And while I think it's possible to be in your healthy masculine and also be in tune with emotions and be emotionally intelligent, it's a very different thing when we're just really constantly labeling any form of natural traditional masculinity as toxic and trying to push them more towards this like feminine side. Because what a lot of women don't realize is that when a man goes into his soft side, he pushes you into your hyper-masculine because someone has to be in control. And so like you said, all the women that are burnt out, exhausted, they're annoyed because they feel like, I have to plan everything, I always do everything, I always organize everything, blah blah blah blah blah. But it's like, then yes, you should be a fan of men being in their masculine energy because when they go soft, that means you have to go hard. And that's the reason why we are in this predicament. And it's— and it go— it's both ways, right? Like we're both feeding off of that energy with each other. Like, if a man is super in his feminine, that's going to push you into your hyper masculine because someone has to be in control, someone has to take charge, someone has to lead. But it's also the reverse, you know.

Um, yeah, and, and when the feminine doesn't have the masculine present, she doesn't feel safe to be in her feminine. That's why, like, even in business, you've got to have the masculine structures because the masculine is what makes the feminine feel safe. If there is no masculine, there is no—

which is why there's so many people that are so in their feminine and they're like, they feel super chaotic in their business and then they're like on social media and then they're, then, then they're off and then they're so inconsistent because they don't have that safety of showing up because there's no fucking plan, there's no structure.

Yes, exactly. So we need the masculinity. It's really important in our relationships. Um, but yeah, those two reasons, and obviously we go on that forever, those two reasons are the biggest reasons why We are seeing women being miserable in regards to their relationships to men, but also men being miserable because they just feel like— and I did this survey for many years, um, and it was an anonymous survey, and men were sharing just like things about being a man. And I can't tell you, Sam, like how heartbreaking these answers are. The amount of men in there that are like, I just feel wrong for being a man, like I wrote, I wrote some of these in my book, but, um, it's really heartbreaking of just feeling like, I feel like I'm immediately wrong because of what's between my legs. I feel like I don't get listened to because of the fact that I am a man. I feel like I am dangerous because I'm a man. And it's like, not because they are dangerous, it's literally they feel like they are in the wrong because of their gender. And it's like, we've come so far as a society, now we're just swinging too far to the other side, in my opinion.

Yeah, totally. And it's so interesting because, like, you know, a lot of the women who probably maybe are falling deep into these extreme feminism tropes of feeling like all men are dangerous and bad and the man versus the bear, which I wanted to bring up because that— I have an unconventional take on that.

Um, would love to hear that.

All of, all of that stuff that just, you know, is just telling them all the time that, like, men are the problem. The funniest thing is that those same women are probably the, the TikTok girlies that want to do the trend where they take a video of themselves pushed up against a wall and they have their boyfriend put his arm over top of their head and grab them by the neck and kiss them. And it's like, it, it's a, it's that, you know, exactly what you described of your experience of really truly on a deep level desiring that. You read in your fantasy fairy books about these super masculine characters that push her up against the wall or like grab her by the neck and put their tongue down your throat, and you're just like, ah, yes, I want that. But then you go out into the real world and you're like, uh, a man could— a man could never. And you're engaging in that activity that's pushing them away from actually embodying the archetype that you so deeply desire.

Yeah, and you're not making them feel safe to be that man. Because here's the thing, like, there's— there are soft boys out there now, unfortunately, or I call them lazy boys, where they have been so trained by the women in their life that they don't have to do shit. And so, you know, there are, there are cases where it's like she's doing all the right things to get him to be as masculine, to give him the space to lead, but he actually doesn't want to be. And the reason why he doesn't want to be is because he's had it so fucking good not having to be a man and to lead and to make decisions and to help around the house. And to, like, he's just, he loves it. He just gets to chill out all day. And it's like, do you really want to go back from that? So there are those men out there. So we obviously, you know, if you want a man that's masculine, you're obviously not going to be attracted to him. But if you are not making a man feel safe to be in his masculine, you will not know whether he is that man that's pushing you up against a wall and putting his hand around your neck and kissing you like in the fantasy fairy books, because he doesn't feel safe to do that with you. And that's the thing, a lot of women, a lot of women forget that we want to feel safe in our relationships as women. But men need to feel safe to be men too. And so many men these days are actually afraid. They are so afraid of saying the wrong thing, offending the woman, going up to the wrong woman. Like, I was catching a flight the other month and I— it was just a classic case of like everyone had put their fucking overhead bags in like the—

oh my God, I was gonna bring this up. Don't even tell me that some dude wouldn't lift your suitcase because I'm so over that. Yeah.

Yeah, would it lift my suitcase? And, you know, I was— I actually, like, I didn't make a scene, but I was like— the lady next to me, she was like, I'm so sorry, I would have helped you, but she had a broken arm. I'm like, it's fine, there are so many men around here that really should have been the ones helping me. That's like a movie scene. And seriously, but I, I actually make a big deal about it when I'm on a plane, for example, not in like a negative way. And when a man helps me with my bag, because now living in Atlanta, I do get a lot more help than when I was living in New York, for example. Or like if I'm flying, you know, home to Atlanta, I get a lot more help than if I'm flying to New York. And they're a lot more New York, um, yeah, because the Southern men really, they know how to be men anyway. And so when a man does put my bag up, I'm like, oh, thank you so much, I'm so grateful for you doing that for me, I really appreciate it.

Because I'm like, every other man, listen to this, because this is what we all need to be standing up, shouting it down the aisle of the plane, like, oh my God, did see, that is so nice. Women love this. Like, grab the little megaphone from the hostess.

We're like, thank you for lifting my bag. So on this flight though, a few months ago, and I— when I was struggling, these two men, when I was at the baggage carousel, then at the end came up to me and they were like, hey, we saw you struggling with your bag. We're really sorry. Like, we would have come up and helped you, but like, we just you know, like, we were down the back, like, we didn't know. And I said, I said, you didn't know whether I would accept the help? And they were like, honestly, that was what it was. We didn't know whether you would accept the help or whether you would chop our balls off. And so I had this conversation with them, right?

Because then you just feel like an idiot. You're trying to help a stranger, and then of course the woman goes, yep, oh no, that's okay, sorry, I got it. And you're like, oh, like, it is embarrassing.

Yeah. Or even worse, like, I could do it myself, I'm not incapable. Like, that's the even worst ones that some women will do because— and you know what it is? It's actually— and those women that do it, like, trigger warning, they are so deeply insecure that they feel the need to constantly flex how good they are. But think about it, if you actually have really deep self-worth, you don't need to prove it to anybody, right? Like, I don't need to show anybody that I'm capable of doing anything because I deeply know that I'm capable of doing it myself. So like, I don't need help, but am I going to accept it? Absolutely. I want it all the time. Like, yes, please do everything for me. And so I had this conversation with these, with, with these men, and they were just sharing that, like, yeah, it's a, it's a problem for them. Like, they never know whether they can go up and help a woman because of situations they'd had in the past. This is not— this is a very common thing. This is not just like a one-time thing. Um, you know, I've had men share this with me before, that they don't know whether they're gonna get their balls chopped off whether the woman is going to receive that. They have no idea, and so it's risky for them. So men also want to feel safe. So even if a man, lady, comes up to you in the bar, and even if you're like, ew, absolutely fucking not, can you not be a dick back to him? You know, can you just be like, hey, I really appreciate you coming up and talking to me, like, that meant a lot. I'm actually not interested. That is a nice way of doing it.

I mean this because I always say this because I genuinely am I have respect and admiration for the amount of times that men have to set themselves up for rejection in life. Yeah, like so many of us are petrified of being rejected or turned away or said no to or whatever. That's like why we don't get half the things that we want in life is because we don't ask for it because we're like, oh, what if they say no? Like, that's the story of a man's life, right? Because we've set up society in a way to where we want them to lead. So we want them to text first. We want them to come up to us in the bar. We want them to be the first to flirt. We want them to be the first to say I love you. We, you know, they're the ones to propose. Like, it's all these demonstrations of, I'm going to go first and I'm going to, you know, bear my heart on my sleeve right here. And I'm— I just know, like, half the time I'm probably not going to be received and it's going to be rejected. I have admiration and respect for the fact that that is a way that they have to move through life since a very young age, right? They grow up with that. And so when someone does, like, hit on me or whatever, I'm obviously unavailable. I have been for the last decade of my life. But, um, I always am like, oh my gosh, thank you so much, I'm really flattered.

Yeah, because you know what, between you and I, it is fucking flattering. I love it when a guy comes up and tries to hit on me and I'm like, actually, I'm pregnant. But made my fucking— like, literally the other— the other month, Hal and I were in New York and I was just like— I was pregnant, I was fucking moody. Like, it was just one of those days. Like, I was— I woke up angry, right? I was like, I knew I was having a boy because I was just angry first trimester. I'm like, you know what, I'm just gonna go out on a walk and I'm gonna get some bone broth. So I go out on a walk and this guy comes up to me and tries to hit on me, and I was like, dude, I'm married and pregnant. And I texted Hal because I was like, just so you know, babe, like, I'm in a really bad mood today, so don't talk to me. I texted him after and I was like, oh, I'm in a good mood now. He's like, what happened? I'm like, a guy tried to pick me up and hit on me, so I'm happy now. Like, you know, but, but it is so important, like like, you know, that you— if you do want— because men are more afraid now than ever to go up to a woman in a bar. You think about it, back in the day, men would come up to women all the time. And there is an added layer of fear, right? Not just that natural fear of rejection, but also the fear of being put in a category, being told you're a creep, that kind of thing. Like, it is really scary. A lot of men actually share— it's been like a full thing in research of the negative implications of the second wave of the MeToo movement because more men than ever do not want to go out with women for like work dinner situations. They do not want a female assistant. They will not go up to a woman and ask her out in person because they believe, you know what, it is not worth it for me to not risk my job. Yeah, because they are so worried it's going to risk their job, so it's better for them to just not even try. And that's really sad. So if you do want a man to come up to you in a bar. It's so important that you are giving those subtle signals of like, I am safe, like I am not going to chop your balls off or say something mean to you. And then if a man does come up to you, can you be nice to him so that he has the confidence to go up to the next woman that is his woman and actually speak to her? Like, don't be that woman that then just makes him never go up to another woman again and be miserable because he can't.

Yeah, and obviously there's nuance. Like, I, I hate having to caveat stuff, and I don't think that we do in this conversation, because everyone listening is smart enough to understand that there's like, like, read the room. There's scenarios if someone's actually being like fucking creepy or sexually assaulting you, it's not like, be nice to him. Obviously not.

No, if you feel unsafe in a situation—

but a lot of times it's just like a fully on the regular ass dude, and you know, you don't need to chop his balls off for him trying to say that you look pretty or whatever. But I'm sure you've seen a lot of things when you were living in New York, but one thing that I thought was interesting to this, you know, to add to this kind of conversation of like men feeling a little bit, um, like they're taking a more passive approach. Like you're saying, they're not— they don't want to get up and they don't want to run up and lift your bag, or, you know, they don't want to intervene too much and like inter— like insert themselves into a situation or a conversation because they, they just don't need that. They don't need to— they don't need to get yelled at, they don't need to be portrayed as like a creep or whatever it is. And so they're taking a more passive approach, but we actually need men to be the protectors and to be really active. I don't know if you remember this, but like when like women were just like getting straight up punched in the face in New York, like it was a thing. There was like homeless people or like whoever was like going around and they would just randomly punch women in the face. And it's like there's always bystanders, bystanders. You're in Manhattan, but it's like no one does anything.

I know. And you know, I've had that. I know I've not had the incident of being punched in the face, but I've had that incident in New York when I was living there. I was being like pretty horrendously catcalled, right? Classic. So there's an example of like like, not all men are good men. We're not saying that, right? But not all women are good women either. So let's just remember, it's not just men are the assholes, there's also women that are assholes.

But men being assholes is not our fault. It's not our responsibility. It's not because we're doing something wrong in our energy to make them that way. But yeah, we get that. We're all smart here.

Um, and so yeah, I was walking down the street, I was getting pretty horrendously catcalled, and there was like men looking at me because of course, again, it's like, can I— do I help? Do I not help? Do I— I could see on their faces, right? Of like, because they're looking. And I can't even remember what I ended up doing. I think I ended up turning around and like saying something to the guy and like he fucked off or something or other. But I remember how— I mean, granted, I was on Canal Street, which is like not the greatest street, but I had to cross it to get into SoHo because I was living in Tribeca. But I remember that made me feel extremely unsafe. And I had many situations in New York, and I've had many situations in my life where, you know, a man has made me feel really, really unsafe. Life. However, I have worked really hard at my— at the programming in my brain to not let me be like, that's all men, because it's not. Like, it's not the guy coming up to you in the bar that is like, clearly he's fine. It's the kind of crazy guy on the street. It's, you know, like, you know, we all— we know what I'm talking about. And so, um, you know, or I'm in a situation that I'm already a little bit on edge, you know, whether it's the middle of the night or whether— if I'm in a foreign country or something, like, so I'm already on edge, so I'm going to be a little bit more hyper alert and a little bit easier to be like skittish. But, um, yeah, I mean, I've had those situations happen in New York, and, and it's, it's a real shame because men don't know what to do. And, and women then say like, I don't feel safe as a woman in the world. And I'm like, yeah, I fucking get that. And you know why I don't feel safe as a woman in this world? Because the other good men aren't coming up and helping me. Because we have made this thing of all men, all men, all men. Like, you know, so like this woman, you know, got killed and got raped, so all men need to be having these conversations about these men in their friendship circle. And I asked my husband about that because I'm sure you remember these situations, right, where it's kind of like the solution is men in their friendship circles need to be talking about these things. And I've asked this to Hal, and he said, imagine if a woman committed a really bad crime and people said to you, you and all of your girlfriends need to talk about how this is partly your fault. World, how would you feel?

It's ridiculous.

And I'm like, yeah, it's ridiculous. His— he, you know, when he was telling me this, he's like, why do I need to talk about that in my friendship circles? I'm not the guy that did it. I'm not gonna go and do that. Like, I'm a good guy, my friends are good guys. We don't need to sit there and talk about these things and then make ourselves feel like we are bad men. Because you think about it, if you internalize this feeling of I'm a bad woman, how, how is that going to change how you move through the world? Like, our reticular activating systems are really powerful, as you know, Sam, and I'm sure your community knows. So, um, yeah, like, this conversation around women not feeling safe, I'm like, honestly, the solution is not get rid of men. That's not the solution. Or make men softer. The solution is we need men to become more masculine again so I can feel when I'm walking down the street if something was to happen, I know a man is going to run over and help me. And like, that is a re— that is a real thing. And I'm sure you can agree with me of like— and not in a sexual way— I want a man to run over and help me because as a man it is his job to protect the women in the world. And like, when people say like, oh, like chivalry is benevolent sexism, I'm like, okay, well, one, funny that a woman is saying that because you actually don't know what chivalry And two, the history of chivalry is actually— chivalry was created for men to show to a woman a sign of respect, and I will protect you. So when a man was chivalrous towards a woman, it wasn't sexual, it's never a sexual innuendo or anything. What he was actually saying is, if you need me, I will protect you. I would like to feel that. I would like to feel that by more men, because that would make me feel safer. Walking around alone as a woman.

So true. So that's obviously, you know, kind of the next direction that we have to go in then is giving men this permission to lead again, right? Like allowing them to feel like we do want that, we do need that, they have our permission to do that, we're not going to shut them down or reject their help, like we actually want that. So I think that, you know, obviously involves us as women being in our receiver energy. Letting him lift the suitcase into the overhead bin, expressing gratitude, saying thank you, complimenting him when he, you know, holds a door. Or when even, like, you can do this within your own relationship to encourage your own partner to continue to lead. When they do stuff that shows their leadership, when they plan a date, when they carry the heaviest grocery bags, like something, something that, you know, my partner always does. He's always like, this one's the lightest, take this one. Like, I love that. It's so nice.

Like Oh, I love it. Yeah, Hal's like, babe, your little arms can't carry this, give me that, way too heavy. I'm like, okay, like, it's all right, baby. He's like, no, you're not. No, no, I'm taking that. I'm like, all right, cool. And I'm just like there carrying my handbag, like, it's fabulous.

It is. We need that. So I'll share with you kind of my— I guess it might be controversial to some people, but this kind of take on victim—

if they're still listening, they're intrigued.

Yeah, if you guys are still here, don't tell the ones who left. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah, controversial take on, on victim culture. This is something that I see a lot that really kind of like, it just irks me, like it just rubs me the wrong way. It's super weird. I find like, I notice a lot of women viewing themselves as victims of the world, of the system, of the patriarchy, right? It's just like a common narrative that like, oh, like we're all such victims of this like horrible, big, bad, scary world that we live in and everyone's trying to kill us, right? Which might be true in a lot of ways. Like, of course there's bad and dangerous things that, that really do happen. And I just find that because of, you know, my history of being so deep into like mindsets and conscious reprogramming, as you said, the reticular activating system, all these things that we know about creating our experience of the world, I find it to be really unproductive and unhelpful to just keep reinforcing this narrative and this trope that like women are so overlooked or so underrepresented or so mistreated and oh, poor us, we're such victims all the time and like like, look at all these things that like men don't even consider us for, like men do to us.

It's actually not true. It's not true, any of this.

And like, the world hates us and is always, like I said, out to get us. Like the, the man versus the bear thing, which was obviously a viral concept because women were saying that they would rather be stuck alone in a forest or a room or whatever with a bear, like a grizzly bear, rather than a man. And obviously the point around that was to draw attention and bring awareness to the fact that many women feel so deeply unsafe around men because we feel like men are dangerous. And although that is real, and violence against women is real, domestic violence is real, uh, discrimination against women is real, the government attempting to control our bodies is real, the female wage gap is real— like, all those things are real, and we can engage in activism for those things. And yet I still don't find it helpful to keep talking about how bad and hard it is to be a woman all the time in our day-to-day lives and complaining about the challenges of womanhood and all that we have to suffer with, you know, and just kind of painting men as being so ignorant and stupid, unhelpful, dangerous. Yeah, like, I just— I think that what we think often and the beliefs that we perpetuate to ourselves and the media that we consume that is feeding us these messages continuously whether you like it or not, that is going to be reflected in your reality. So if you would like to experience a safer version of the world and you would like to feel relaxed, feel safe, feel taken care of, then you cannot be engaging in those thoughts, behaviors, and consuming media that's telling you that all the time. Point blank, period. I don't care what you say.

Yes, a couple things. Third-party trauma is very real, I think, especially for women. So like, as an example, when we saw all the stuff happening with Israel and Gaza and all of that, and like, you know, women's pregnant bellies getting chopped off— like, I don't know about you, horrific, right? There is like— there is, you know, we are so— I have goosebumps— we are so interconnected as women and as people that when something else happens to another woman, we can't help as women but feel like, oh my God, imagine if that happened to me. So when these things happen in the world, you know, I remember when I was living in London, there was this thing where some police officers were, um, raping and killing women with blonde hair, fair skin, and blue eyes. I have blonde hair, fair skin, and blue eyes. So of course, in those situations, as the woman that also looks like that, you're more scared walking around. I think here's the thing that we need to just firstly understand as women. We will never feel the level of safety around men that we want to feel, because biologically we know that men are stronger than us. Biologically, deep in ourselves, we know that we could not defend ourselves against a man because they are bigger, physically stronger than us, have more testosterone. They go into fight or flight, we go into freeze as our default. For me, just the ownership— or not even like the ownership, just like, um, oh my God, thank you, acceptance, baby brain— the acceptance of our biology has been healing because I'm not trying to then change something that frankly can't get changed and waste all of this energy and then of course dip into that victim mindset of I don't feel safe around men, I don't feel safe around men, even if all the men We're now like, you know, just like back in the Titanic days, like putting us on the, um, the like rafts before them. And they all— like, most men died, most women and children survived because they sacrificed themselves, because it's like their job is to protect us. Still, if a man gets aggressive, if a man gets angry, there is a part of us that's like, oh, I'm a bit scared. That's not gonna go away. And if you keep trying to make that go away, all that does is it validates this thing in you of, I am not safe, I am weak. Not helpful, right? So it's kind of this thing of just like, when you could understand that you're never gonna— in my opinion anyway— when you could understand you're never going to get the solution that you want, you can stop fighting for something that is never going to get you there.

Biological— you're doing— it's a biological survival response that we're not going to get rid of. We don't live in Barbie Land. We're not going to turn all the men into soy boy feminine women to the point where you're like, everything in life feels so safe because there's no one masculine here.

Like, but even still, the reality is that actually wouldn't lead to safety. That's the thing, it's like people are thinking, oh, getting this outcome will make me feel safe, and it's like, no, no, that's not going to make you feel safe anyway. All that's doing is putting you on a hamster wheel. But again, like the Roe v. Wade thing and the abortion thing and whatnot for, um, those of us in the U.S., again, third-party trauma that can feel really scary for a lot of women of just like, wait. And a lot of women obviously, you know, I think that the social— I feel like this goes without saying, but like social media can make us not fully understand a concept. So then we just believe the scary parts of the concept and not actually become really educated on it. But like in that situation, again, very scary because we're feeling like we have no autonomy over our body. What I'm noticing in regards to the, like, victimhood is that I feel like a lot of women are fighting for the sake of fighting. We are so addicted to being angry as women instead of actually being like, can I focus on what makes me happy? You can still be against the Roe v. Wade stuff, you can still care about the things happening as women, but can we not make your whole life, where then that is making you feel more unsafe to be a woman. Like, how can you still support these causes and get the message out there without you just getting consistently addicted to the adrenaline rush of being angry?

I love the hot takes from Monica. Um, okay, I kind of want to keep going. Do you have— can we do a little bit more?

Yeah, I have time. Okay.

Yeah, yeah, of course. Because we obviously need some tips on healing our collective resentment towards men, which is what we're kind of talking about. Like, we're addicted to this kind of like fighter energy. We want to be angry, like, oh, like, it's not working, the world isn't the way that we want it to be. And we have this like pent-up kind of resentment underneath towards men as a whole. How, how can we learn to be lovers of men and lovers of the masculine?

Okay, two things. One, definitely healing the trauma and the messaging and the programming that's been passed down from our grandmothers and our mothers, because that's where a lot of the anger also comes from, where the kind of foundation of it was built. Because we were fed these— like, I was fed a programming of like, um, being a woman, we get the bad end of the stick. That was what I was always told. So I had this programming from a very young age that men have it so much easier and we get the bad end of the stick. Like, that was the programming. Um, I also had the programming that was really heavily like stuck in there of all men want sex, that's all they want. Not that— not that's all you're good for, but that's all men want. So basically don't trust them, right? Because that's all they actually care about getting. And so Number one, obviously really important to heal those things so that that programming isn't, you know, then affecting your life now. Second thing is, it is so healing to understand men. Like, listen to them. Even just as an exercise for all the women that are listening, if you're in a relationship, do this with your man. If you're not in a relationship, maybe you have a guy friend, a dad, an uncle, a brother. And I want you to just sit down and be like, hey, I'm really curious of what it's kind of like sometimes in your brain to be a man. And I feel like I've done potentially a good job at emasculating you over the time, you know, because what that's doing is it's, it's taking down the guard, right? And it really shows, you know, in the conversation, I really want to learn right now. Like, I really want to learn. And just ask him something like, can you please tell me some of the ways that I make you feel less than as a man, and some of the little things that I do that you just love as like a woman? When I've had clients do this, you know, the things their partner will say is, I love when you're just sitting and watching TV. I love when you're just in the bath and just like doing your skincare. And it makes us realize as women, oh, they don't see that as lazy. They don't see that as less than or unproductive. To them, they're like, oh, she's relaxing. They're doing their job. Like, Hal loves it when he comes— when he comes home from the gym or something of an evening and I'm watching TV. Oh my God, minor heart attack. He loves it because it's like, she's relaxing. She's not working. She's not doing. She's relaxing. But then also for you to be able to hear some of the things that he shares of ways that you have made him potentially feel less than as a man, or some of the things that he— the challenges that he wants to share about being a man. I will say, notice when your ego goes, oh, don't be pathetic, like, notice that, right? Notice that inner fucking talk. That's what— that's what we're talking about, right? Of like that programming of just putting men down. Can you actually just receive what he's saying? Because here's the thing, Most women, when a man says whatever he says, will go, oh, that's stupid. Yeah, that's stupid to you, but you're not a man. Just like I'm sure we can all—

oh, what are all the things that men think are stupid? Like, oh, Taylor Swift, uh, why are you crying?

Why are you crying?

Not a big deal.

I need to cry. Not a big deal. Oh my God, not a big deal. Like, why are you in a bad mood? And we just want to fucking rage at them because we feel misunderstood. Right? Well, when we do that to them, they feel misunderstood. When you can understand that there will be times where you will never understand his brain, just like there are times where he will never understand your brain, it brings so much more harmony because you then stop trying to need to understand why exactly he's thinking that way, and you could just be like, that's the way he's thinking.

Or, or not needing him to be like you. And to move through the world like you or think like you. I think that's like one of the most relaxing and nourishing things that I ever did was like let go of the idea that like my partner needs to see the world and see everything the way that I do. It's actually beautiful that he sees things a lot differently or like brings another perspective. It's taught me a lot actually, because I love being right. I do love— I do love being right. And factually, I am right most of the time, but we're still, we're still healing that part. But I do actually love that I've grown and like learned so much in that, in that way of like surrendering of like, oh, I actually, I can look at so many things in the world through a different lens because of like what my partner has taught me from like little things, but to even deeper conversations about like raising children and how we think about school systems and like homework, or like the importance of sports, or especially like political views and just like history and just all the different angles that like someone can bring to something if you're actually open to it. Um, I think it's been really—

you have an open mind.

Yeah, it's been really nourishing for me to just be like, oh yeah, well, he sees it in that way, and, uh, maybe I don't fully agree, but like, that's still valid.

But that's the thing, so many adults these days we think, oh, I can't be friends with someone, I can't be in a relationship with someone if I don't agree with them. Like, how many people have these days lost friendships over fucking politics? I'm like, really? As an adult, you cannot respect this person for a difference of opinion? Now maybe obviously in a romantic relationship you pro— like, there's some things you obviously need to agree on, like some of those foundational things. Yeah. But what I will say is that, you know, it's really healing when you actually leave space for him to talk. And the key thing is, is when you ask a man a question because you genuinely want to know and you want to let him be heard and learn from him so that this can start this healing process of like actually understanding men, is shut the fuck up. Like, when you ask the question, I don't care if you are sitting there for 5 minutes in silence because of the way that our brains are wired as women. We can just be like boom boom boom boom boom boom boom in an argument and just be like shooting off these fucking things. And if you've ever noticed, men are like, oh, I don't know what to say, and then they come back 2 days later with an answer or with something, and you're like, how'd that take you 2 fucking days to think of? That's a man's brain. It takes them longer for one neuron to go to the next to be like, oh, okay, message received, and then to be able to like deliver the message. Whereas for us, it's really quick.

And so when you ask a man a question, it's also like that idea that women have like that singular focus, right? Whereas like women have kind of more of a multi-focus.

So you don't ask him these questions when he's in the middle of like budgeting something or doing the finances. You need to be like on the sofa and he's single-focused on you. But when you ask him a question, you then need to be silent, because one of the easiest ways that women emasculate men, and they don't realize it, is cutting him off. And not just cutting him off when he's talking and words are coming out of his mouth, but cutting him off in his thought process. That's what's forgotten. He is in a thought process because because men, when they say something, it has been really thought out. Like, they are then going to follow through on what they've said. Think about us as women. We're like, oh, we feel like Japanese. 10 minutes later, actually no, can we do Italian?

Like, yeah, we're so— we're so emotionally led, and we just kind of like spitball like what the emotion is coming up like as it's coming up. And, and they're definitely more pointed in, in those things. This is something that I really have to work on, especially in my relationship, because of our um, language differences. That adds sometimes, like, I know what he's trying to say, but it's taking him longer to get it out because maybe he's like tired and his like English is getting slow, or he's said something wrong, but like I want to correct him so that he doesn't— or not correct him, like, say it like this, but like almost be like, oh yeah, like he means whatever, what, like almost like, like spruce it up a little bit for him so that he seems smarter because I don't want him to feel bad. But I'm like, that's actually making it worse. Like, I have to like stop doing that. Like, shut the fuck up.

Because like, instead, you know, you could just tell him one time like, hey babe, just so you know, if there's any time we're out or whatever and you've said something and you're like, did I say that right? You can always ask me and then I'll tell you. But then there's an invitation for the feedback. And so many women, we go into that mother, you know, we don't stay in the lover, we go into the mother and we nitpick and we tell him how it should have been done. I'm like, actually no, that's not how it went. This is how it We cut them off, we tell them that they're wrong, we embarrass them, and it's really, it's, it's really horrible. And we do it because we think we know better and men don't know anything. And that's absolutely not true. The more that I have left—

I think moms do this a lot to their kids.

Oh yes. And so that was one of the things where I was like, oh, we'll just pin that one of like when you ask like what's causing the like loss of masculinity. One of the other pieces of this is like when women like when mothers are raising sons and they're raising them like they're daughters and they're not raising them like they're boys, and they're some— and it's like instead it's a boy. And so they are talking to their son as though they're talking to a little girl. They're cutting her off, they're correcting her, whatever. There's different ways of discipline, and obviously, you know, there's single moms out there and so they have to do the best they can. But again, when you understand men, that even helps you with how you raise your child. Like, we're having a boy, and Hal and I have talked about this, and it's like, I, when possible, I do not want to be the one to discipline him because I will naturally discipline him like I would discipline a little girl or a woman, and he needs to be disciplined the way that a man needs to be disciplined. Now, different when they're like really, really, really babies where actually they just need like all the mom energy and like the empathy and whatnot, so then Hal wouldn't be the one disciplining But once he's, you know, getting a little bit older and a toddler, that's where the men— like, the influence of a man is so important in a little boy's life. Even if it's not their dad, they need that male influence.

So, so true. I was going to ask you about, um, yeah, like, if you felt any different about this work, or maybe just even more inspired and excited by your own work now knowing that you're about to have a son, because it is so much.

I mean, I always knew I was going to have a boy. Last, so I feel like it was no surprise. But I feel like it's definitely on brand, um, and I mean, it just— I feel like, yeah, when we knew we were having a boy, it was more just kind of like, oh, this is very on brand because now I get to raise a man and it will be a really beautiful opportunity for me to practice what I preach and give this feedback to mothers and to help mothers of like, how can we raise a generation of men. Because, you know, my thoughts is like the younger gentlemen coming through and the younger boys coming through, like potentially a lost cause for some of them. Because it's like, how much can you unprogram someone if their whole life they've been programmed one way? But I truly feel like— I mean, I know so many women that are having boys, like way more boys are coming through, you know, right now than there are girls. And part of me wonders if that's like the collective shift of like, we need this wave of true masculinity to come back through, and because of what's been going on. Um, and so it's a beautiful opportunity for us as mothers to be raising gentlemen and like proper, proper men, and to bring chivalry back, and to make these little boys make, you know, girls feel safe and then grow into amazing men. So, um, I mean, I'm excited. Buy it, to be honest.

Yeah, I know, it gives me goosebumps. It feels really, feels really, really beautiful. I hope I get the opportunity someday too. I have the feeling that I will also have boys, so, um, there you go.

I, I feel like having boys are a gift to our feminine energy and our, like, just, like, female essence, because it allows us to just feel so much of that protection in the house. And like, you know, when I see other friends that have little boys, like, the way these little boys treat their mothers is like they are protecting their mothers from age like 3. And I just think that that's so healing for a lot of us, um, to actually have that in the house.

So yeah, I love that. Okay, rapid fire, last thing, because how did we not talk about being the feminine female breadwinner? Like, what? So for all the women listening that are like, you know, killing it, they're making money, they're being the breadwinners, is how do we navigate maintaining sexual polarity in a relationship where you're making the money?

Okay, first thing is, is that you cannot tie money to being masculine. A lot of— that's the first mistake women make. They think, because I'm making the money, I'm immediately the masculine one, I'm immediately the man, I have to be in control, blah blah blah. Absolutely not true, right? Um, so that's number one. Number two is that you need to think about all the ways that he provides and protects that are irrelevant with money. Like, they have no correlation to money. So it's little things like him planning the dates, him, you know, cuddling you in bed at night, him telling you go up to bed. Like, you said that you want to go— yeah, locking the door. Like, there's so many little examples that he does that he can be doing that doesn't actually cost a dime. But we need to start seeing that. Like, what we're talking— we've been talking about today, stop focusing on what he's not doing and instead focus on what he is doing, because you'll actually start to then see just how much he's doing and start actually giving credit for that. So that's a really important thing, is that you need to separate, these days at least, money from being their protector and their provider. Because like I said earlier, I make all of the money, my husband works for me even, so it's like, it's not like, oh, I'm just the breadwinner. Like, the money comes through my business, and I do not— I absolutely do not feel like I'm the provider or the protector. He does everything when it comes to the money the house, like all of those. Just, I don't even know what he fucking does, but all those things. I know it's all the really hard, mentally taxing, annoying things that I seriously like don't even— like if someone said to me like, how do you like go about getting a mortgage? I'm like, not a question for me. Do I, do I pay for the mortgage? Do I, do I own the house? Yep. Did I buy the house? Yep. Don't know how I did it, no idea, because he did it all. So that's a really important thing. And then like you said, Sam, so what I say is, and I think it's really good programming to get into your head, the feminine female breadwinner. You aren't just the female breadwinner, you can be feminine in being the breadwinner. It's really about how you go about it, right? So you could be the female breadwinner and you could use that as a means to control, to belittle, to emasculate. You could bring it up in arguments. You could feel like you could decide, because I'm the one making the money, I'm the one that has to keep the roof over the head, then I'm the one that has to make all the decisions. Everything lies on me. Or you could decide that's not the case. Just because the money comes in through you doesn't mean that then you have all of those responsibilities. So you can be making the money, but then it depends how you act with the money. And this goes for dating as well. So if you're on a date, or even if you're out with your husband, are you whipping out your credit card first all the time because you just think like, oh, he can't afford it, it's fine, I'll just get it? Because what you're then doing is you're putting yourself in a shitty situation of now perpetuating this feeling of I'm responsible for paying for everything, everything's on my shoulders. But what you're also doing is you're really emasculating him. So think about it in terms of like, how are you actually engaging with money in your relationship as the breadwinner? That's the most— I feel like that is a really big thing to understand because so much of this is just about energy. And a lot of women will bring up the money thing as a means to control as a means to get what they want. Um, they'll bring it up in an argument, for example, and you have to be like, you have to know within yourself that that is not something that you are allowed to do. Because imagine if, even if you weren't the breadwinner, imagine if a guy like your husband brought up in an argument, well, I'm the one that pays for everything, I'm the one that has the, like, the roof over your head. I, you would feel horrible. Even if you are a stay-at-home mom, you're raising the children, and that was the deal, like, that was fully organized that's what he wanted, that's what you wanted, that would stick with you for the rest of your life. And you would constantly feel like, I'm not worthy of going out and buying myself a new dress, I have to ask him all the time if I can, it's his money, it's his money, it's his money, it's not our money. Also, to add to this, kind of, it feels separate but it's definitely not, is that we need to start valuing the more traditional feminine things that we do in the house that aren't about making money. Money, or that don't bring money in— doing the laundry, washing the dishes, making dinner— whether it's you doing it as the woman and you're also the breadwinner, or whether it's him doing it, you need to value whoever is doing those things and, and value the actual task itself. And I say that because even if you're the one that's making the money but you're also, let's just say, doing the laundry, a lot of women I've noticed, they don't value the time they spend and the act of doing the laundry. So they're not validating for themselves the fact that they are like working two jobs. And that then adds to the resentment and the anger that then can come up kind of like unbeknownst to them because they just didn't really know it was—

or they'll like clean the whole house, do all the laundry, like sort a bunch of things for their kids and be like, oh my God, I didn't get anything done today because they didn't get anything done in the business side or like making money-wise. Like they're putting no value on like what that brings to the family. In my case, like Jaime does the laundry and I'm always just like, thank you so much. Like our, our life literally would not run without him. Like everything would fall apart because even though I pay for a lot of things, like he manages everything. Like you said, like he's managing like who our mortgage just got sold to and what the new company is. And you know, the, oh, the HOA payment for our condo just went up and gotta send this money over here and do this. Like I just got a new car and I'm gonna need insurance, so I text him, can you sort car insurance for me? Like, yep, everything. Like, my life would fall apart that he does all of that, right?

That's the thing, we don't— again, we're not valuing the things that don't bring money in. And I like to think about it like, what could be helpful? And this was really helpful for me in the beginning of, you know, me really sinking into my feminine as the female breadwinner. This is long before I met is almost in my head putting like a number value on some tasks. So for example, you know, like, you know, making dinner, booking a trip, organizing the car insurance, like in your mind, like how much does that quote unquote cost for value? Because what that can help you do is start to actually add the value to things that don't have a monetary value, that aren't making any money, and whatnot. And so same thing, like, even though I'm the one making the money, Hal, you know, will very often do the laundry, and he's doing all— like, honestly, I don't even know what it requires to be an adult because I don't do any of it, right? And I'm so grateful for that because the reality is I couldn't even make this money with this much ease if I didn't have him in my life, because I would then have to be doing all of those things and making the money. To your point, if you are making money as a woman but you're also picking your kids up from school and blah blah blah, it can be helpful in the beginning to actually realize that's like part of your job. Many of us don't factor those things in if they are part of your job. Or even just like I'll say to some clients, when you're having a bath, that's part of your job because that is shifting your energy, it's putting you into greater creativity, it's relaxing your nervous system, blah blah blah. For really A-type people, it can be helpful to see that as part of your job, to start to value it. And then down the track, you'll just do the laundry, you'll do the— you'll have the bath, you'll pick your kids up from school, and you'll no longer see this as a waste of time, but actually how much it's bringing into your life. Like, abundance isn't just the money that's coming in. Abundance is walking into your wardrobe and the folded clean clothes there. It's the bath. It's being able to sit outside on a sunny day with your children and have a picnic. Like, that is also abundance.

So beautiful. Oh my God, this conversation was so good. I feel like we could keep going, but you guys, if this— if you're still here with us and you've actually genuinely enjoyed this episode, it's challenged your thinking, it's made you want to maybe make some changes, some shifts, um, then I recommend checking out Monica's book. It's going to be out very, very soon. We will link it in the show notes for you guys to grab a pre-sale copy. Pre-sales obviously help the author so, so much with their goals of, you know, being ranked on New York Times bestseller list and things like that. So if you do want to get the book, the best time to get it is now. It is called Becoming Her. I can't wait to read it. I've read a couple of the advanced chapters and I can't wait to read the rest of it. But I'm so, so excited. I know it's been such a long time coming for this.

Yeah, 5 years, but we're finally here. So grateful for that.

Yeah, birthing the book and then birthing the baby.

So yeah, I know, it's all happening at once.

It's all happening. It So we're actually going to do a giveaway for you guys. Um, we're going to give away 3 of Monica's books. So 3 winners. If you just leave a review for the podcast about this episode, anything that you love from this episode, something that it challenged you to think about, something that it made you want to shift or change in your relationship or in your dating life, or even just in your personal energy, how you view the world. Um, write a quick little review for the podcast in this episode with Monica, and we will pick pick 3 winners and we will send you a copy of her new book, Becoming Her.

Thank you, Sam, so much for having me. This was so—

I know, so, so good. Thank you guys for tuning in. Uh, we love you so much. And if you enjoyed this episode, obviously share it, send it to a woman in your life or a man in your life. Start those conversations. Again, this is not, you know, about men being better than women or men being victims or vice versa. It's really just about how we live in a symbiotic culture and relationship where everything that we do and they do is affecting one another. And the more harmony that we can bring to that relationship through our energies and the way that we're showing up and the way that we choose to see the opposite sex and gender is going to give us ultimately a better experience of the world for us to get what we want out of relationships, to actually feel safe, to feel desired, to feel cherished, all those things that we're wanting. And so I really hope that you enjoyed this conversation. If you did, share it to your Instagram, tag Monica Nye. So that we can chat with you, and we will talk to you guys very, very soon.