Narcissism & Healing from Past Relationships w/ Dr. Onalee Makam

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Let's go make shit happen. Welcome to the show, Annelie. I'm so excited that you're here. It's so much fun to do this episode. One, because you're my friend and we just get to chat. Two, because I'm really, really excited to deliver this topic to my audience. Because narcissism has been a huge buzzword. You probably know this in your work over the past couple of years. Our awareness of narcissism, narcissistic relationships and tendencies has grown so much, and it's really big on social media. People talking all about these things. It's huge on TikTok, but I still feel like there's a lot of conversations about it. From a surface level and not from a really experiential, integrated, knowledgeable place. So I'm really, really excited to share true information with my audience about narcissism and narcissistic relationships. And also I'm moving in 3 weeks, in 2 weeks, in 1 week, in 1 week. Yes. And we're going to, we're going to be neighbors.

So yeah, same zip code.

Same zip code, 333. We won't give away the rest, but it starts with 333. That's all you need to know.

So I'm so excited.

I'm so excited for this conversation. Thank you so much for being here. For everybody who might not know you, give them just a little background of who you are and the work that you're doing nowadays. And, you know, this new arena that you've stepped into over the last year or so of really specializing in narcissistic relationships and why that's relevant or important to you.

Yay! Well, first of all, I'm so excited to be here. I'm so excited to share with you all because everything that you shared, yes, we need to go deeper into actual stories about it and more awareness of it because that aspect is not shared that much. So for those of you guys who don't know, I'm Dr. Annelie, and I'm going into my 5th year of my business, and I really focus on self-love and healing from toxic or narcissistic relationships. One of the reasons why I've gone into more specializing into this is because I've worked with women on their businesses, on their health, on their finances, and different areas of their life. And what it came down to for almost all of their issues was unhealthy relationships in the past or current ones. And so I realized addressing that, addressing the root cause, is what helps clear up all of those other areas. So that is currently what I do, where I'm at, and I'm so excited to share with more people around this area.

Yes, I'm so excited. So before we get into more of your story with narcissistic relationships and kind of unpack that and share some of the details of what that looked like, just for everybody listening in general, let's do like a what is narcissism, like, you know, crash course. Like, what is narcissism? How does it show up? Where does it come from? Are people born narcissists? Are they created to be narcissists out of their life experiences? What is narcissism?

Yeah. So sometimes I think we might think of narcissists as just someone who's very selfish and self-centered. And yes, absolutely. That is the root of it. But it's not just about taking selfies or not wanting to drive somewhere when you drove somewhere and not paying things back. What it is is such an inflated ego that there's no empathy, there's no compassion, there's no remorse inside. And so some of the ways to characterize a narcissist too is when they paint, paint a fantasy of who they are and they make it seem like they are a very charming or very loving person and they seem to be everything that you are looking for. They are very brilliant people, actually. So some of the feelings you get when you are in a narcissistic relationship or you meet a narcissist is you feel like they've— you finally have found the one, or they complete you. They finally fill in the gaps of everything that you were looking for. And so what happens though is, especially if you're in a narcissistic relationship, is that fades after they have hooked you in with being charming or whatever they need to say or do, or the fantasy that they have painted. It fades away, and then they will turn into the polar opposite. And this is one of the reasons why it can feel like such a mindfuck, because in the beginning they were so amazing and you were so in love and they were everything you wanted. And then it turns into your worst nightmare. They're the opposite of what you wanted. But the problem is too, is they will swing from both sides of the spectrum where right when you feel like you're done, you can't take it anymore, they'll switch back on to how they were in the beginning. And so some of the main ways to characterize a narcissist is, is the gaslighting, of course, where they make you feel like your reality or the way you perceive things or the things that they have said to you aren't actually real. You're making it up. You're going crazy. It's all in your mind. You're the crazy one. You're the narcissist. Putting it back on you. And then the main thing I would say, like, if we're to summarize it too, is when you're with a narcissist, you don't feel good. You don't feel good when you leave a conversation. You don't feel good when you leave hanging out with this person. You're in the energy of feeling scattered. You might feel overwhelmed. You might feel like you're doubting yourself. And a main thing I see with a lot of people is that they feel like they weren't good enough. They didn't say the right thing. They said too much. They were annoying, just super self-conscious after leaving the conversation. So we can definitely go more into more things. But those are the main characteristics, I would say, of narcissism.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think the challenging part of of all of it is that, like you said, they're extremely intelligent. So they lack empathy, but they're very good at learning how to portray themselves as if they do have all of those characteristics. It's kind of like, um, sociopaths.

It is, it is. Exactly. They're all in similar categories. For sure. Yeah.

Like sociopaths don't really have any empathy for other human beings, but they're very, very good at copying and emulating and mirroring how other people show empathy, how other people show sadness, how other people show excitement or love or whatever it is. So they're like these little robots and they can just turn it on. But then what do you think it is that happens within the narcissist's mind or within their cycle that makes them go so drastically from mirroring, emulating, copying what the other person might want, and then, and then actually turning into like a shitty person? What is, I guess, what is like the narcissist's main goal? Because we know that they're very ego-driven and there are certain things that they need from you. So can you talk about that a little bit? What do they need from you and how does that influence the roller coaster of up and downs?

Yeah. So what they need is they need praise. But more importantly than the praise is they need power and they need control. That is their lifeline. That is what makes them thrive. So the moment where they start to feel like they are not in power and they are not in control, or maybe you start speaking up to them or finally standing up for yourself or asking for something, that's usually when it starts to switch because they don't have— or they perceive that they are losing power and control over you. So a lot of times they will then go find it from somebody else where they can start that whole situation all over again. But yeah, to summarize, they want power and control. Hmm.

So What is the— I've heard this, this concept of like, it's not necessarily ego deaths, but there's like something that happens to narcissists where like their ego is like really, really hurt.

What is it?

Do you know what it's called? Do you know what I'm talking about? It's like an ego— what do they call it? It's like an ego fall or something like that. But it's like when their ego is really hurt or they actually are like embarrassed or humiliated or someone finds out that they're not they've been saying that they are, or they catch them in a lie, or they see that their, like, life isn't as, like, good and put together, or they don't have all the money that they claim to have. Like, when there's, like, a big, um, embarrassment or a big hit to the narcissist's ego, it, like, really, really affects them deeply because they're so driven by that need to be perceived as, like, the best.

Yeah. I mean, even just how you're saying that, whatever it's called, it— that does happen where a lot of times narcissists come off like, yeah, like they do have it together. They, they have so much money, they have so many resources, so many connections. That's one of the things I really noticed, like they have got it. And then I've gotten into relationships with them and I'm like, they're actually broke and they actually aren't working. They actually don't have all these things that like they really painted it out. And yeah, it is the moment where you might call them out on it or you might find out about it or not be as turned on by it. They can't handle that. They actually are very, very insecure people. As confident as they may seem, they're very deeply insecure and wounded. And so when that button is pressed within them where they, they feel insecure, you have finally seen what you're doing or somebody notices. Yeah, that's when they kind of explode and that's when the abuse, if you will, starts to come out because they're projecting it out because they're so insecure. They don't even know how to handle or what to do with it. So they'll start attacking your own weaknesses and your own insecurities. And that's when it makes it feel like it's you. They put it on you.

Yeah, I think that's something that I've noticed and also I've heard about too, is a characteristic sometimes of a narcissist is whatever you are claiming that they've done wrong or potentially will put in air quotes like blaming them for, they will just like spin it back to you and say that actually you were the one who did that or you started it or you made them do that. And it's— they're really like just talented at spinning the table, turning the tables. And, and, you know, if it's cheating or whatever or anything. It's like, oh, but, but you're a liar because you did this or that. And you— so it's looking out for that. And I think people have experienced this a lot, even with narcissistic parents, is if you ever had a confrontational conversation with a narcissistic parent of some kind where you're trying to express something that feels not okay to you that your parent has done, they almost like go into this really childlike attack mode of being like, well, you and you and you and turning everything back on you.

I'm so happy that you brought this up because that's a huge indication when you go to a healthy, normal person, when you express how you're feeling or you set a boundary or you say you didn't like something, a normal, healthy person would apologize or be empathetic or ask how they can do better. You would feel good, you would feel safe after. It might be a little uncomfortable, but they wouldn't make you feel so bad or so wrong for it. One of the things with being in a narcissistic relationship or dynamic is a lot of times you'll end up saying sorry when you were the one who came with an issue. You end up being the one apologizing. I've seen that with myself. I've seen that with so many clients. It's like, wait, but I was the one upset and now I'm apologizing. Like, how does that make sense? Sense, because that's what they do. They are brilliant at spinning it or using one little thing against you, even though they've done that thing 100, 200, 1,000 times and you did one thing and they'll remember it and they'll, they'll put it back on you.

Mm-hmm. So let's talk about like your history with narcissistic relationships. And obviously when you first get into a relationship with a narcissist, It's unknowingly because no one's like, oh, you're such a narcissist. Like, let's date. So obviously this is like, you know, like the first time you ever experienced this. What was it like the beginning of the relationship? And then what are some things that happened over the months or years potentially that let you know this is not a healthy relationship dynamic and something is wrong here?

Yeah, gosh, my journey, it's been interesting because although I kept attracting narcissists over and over and over again, or better yet, I was attracted to narcissists, they all seemed a little bit different. So sometimes it could be totally opposite of the previous relationship to then the next relationship. And so that made it hard for me to fully distinguish because that person showed up so differently than my ex, who was a narcissist. So that threw me off a little bit. But what I want to say is that how I felt or feel in the beginning of narcissistic relationships, no matter how that person was showing up, was it finally felt like, oh my gosh, somebody sees me, somebody gets me, somebody understands me. It's easy with them. They're calling me sweet names. They're comforting me. They're doing all of the things that I was wanting outside of myself. And so when I got it, it felt like a hit. It feels like an addiction. It feels like when that first glass of wine is going down or that first hit from, from a joint. That's what it would feel like in relationship. It'd be like such a high. And then what would happen is once I would call them out or I would notice things or I'd start speaking up or I would, I would say no to them. If I turned them down for something or I didn't do exactly what they wanted to do, That's when I felt like a lot of these relationships, especially the one I'm thinking about right now, is it would almost be like I would get punished or I would get the silent treatment or he would then use things against me. But this was the biggest one. I would be called selfish or I would be called bitchy, two things I was very afraid of being. And they knew that. And so he would use my insecurities or my fears against me to make sure I still do anything for this person. I was cooking, I was getting the groceries, I was cleaning the house, I was doing the laundry, I was doing, doing, doing, giving, giving, giving. And he would make it seem like it's still not enough. Or you— he would tell me this all the time. You do nothing for me. Yeah. And I hear this from so many people going through these relationships. They are doing the opposite, like doing everything for this person. And that person can make them feel like it's still not enough and you're not even doing that. And so what did that activate within me? It makes me feel like I'm not doing enough and I gotta do more. I gotta do more, I gotta do more, I gotta do this, I gotta make more sacrifices. And it still wasn't enough. It felt like this never-ending cycle of not enough. But the main common theme that now I'm a master at noticing because I've gone through so many is it's actually how they make me feel underlying. So it doesn't matter that this guy calls me baby and texts me all the time. And then this guy doesn't call me baby and doesn't text me all the time. It's how do they make me feel underneath? I feel like I am not good enough. I feel like I'm not chosen. I feel like I'm not a priority. I feel like they don't see me. I feel like they want somebody else. And their eyes are always wandering. It's the underlying core feelings. And that's the most important thing when looking at how you're feeling in a narcissistic relationship and not getting caught up in their actions of what they're doing and not doing. What you want to start evaluating is the underlying feeling you feel in the relationship once the love bombing and that high fades away.

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Um, that's a really good point because obviously the, the way that they manipulate you or speak to you or treat you, the things that they do or don't do is going to be different for every person.

Totally different.

But the feeling that you're going to get is going to be the common thread throughout. So I love that. I want to back up a little bit and talk about the beginning stages of these relationships because it sounds like you're talking about love bombing. Which is another, another buzzword that everybody's talking about and pretending to be experts about. So from someone who's experienced the love bombing phase of a narcissistic relationship, can you share with everybody, first of all, just what love bombing is and how some examples of how it showed up for you before?

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. It definitely is a buzzword. So let's Let's debunk that right now because love bombing is going to show up differently for everybody. So what love bombing really is, is this excessive amount of love in whatever form it comes from, where it happens really fast and really quickly. And usually, especially when you don't even really know this person that well. And so different ways of love bombing I've experienced personally is in the beginning where I barely met, knew somebody, he's every day ordering me new, new necklaces on Amazon, new bracelets on Amazon, inviting me over every day to cook for me and buying me flowers and doing all these things within the first week of a relationship or of talking. And so I can look back in hindsight seeing that that was love bombing because what happened after he got me after I was hooked, all those things stopped. I wasn't getting Amazon necklaces anymore. I wasn't getting flowers anymore. He wasn't cooking for me. I'm doing the cooking. So a lot of time it's in hindsight where it's this like so much love or so much of whatever you're wanting all at once. Another example of love bombing that I've experienced was with praise. It wasn't with physical gifts. It was how beautiful I am, how amazing I am, how proud he is of me, how much he sees me with my business. So that's why you want to know and be curious. Do you even know this person? And they're giving you so much excessive love and praise and gifts. Is that normal? Asking yourself, like, is that normal? It's not to say, like, people can't give you gifts and praise you, but just notice when it starts to feel like this is a little bit over the top. This is a little bit much. I don't really know this. He doesn't know my heart yet. Like, he doesn't even know me. We've only hung out a few times, a short amount of period. Is that normal? Because that's a tactic. They want to do something that you're not giving to yourself or that you might, in quotes, be lacking. And this is why it is important just to end with this, is giving yourself all of those things so that when it does come from another person, you can thoroughly enjoy it and it's not such a hit, it's not such a high. It's not like, oh my God, finally I'm getting flowers, finally I'm getting praise, because that's what will hook you in and what you will be weak towards because you're not sourcing it within yourself.

Yeah, for sure. And I think that's what they prey on, you know, is, is is women that are exhausted from dating men that are emotionally unavailable or that are non-committal. That is a huge thing that they prey on, right? Is another example of the love bombing can be talking about future plans with this person really early on, like marriage or kids, or where they would want to live with you, buying a house together. I see us doing this, that, or the other thing. All of that, like, intense future planning really early on, which, if you don't have that foundation of self-love and self-awareness within yourself, you may think, oh my God, finally a man who's, like, ready to commit. Finally a man who's not scared of marriage or who actually wants to have kids. And it can feel really, really exciting until it's not anymore.

Well, I was gonna say that too. It's like these huge promises of the future are talking about like, when we have kids, or what will we name our kids, and we've been dating for like 3 weeks. And what I noticed is, yeah, they're so brilliant at knowing like that's what you want, so they'll speak so into that. But then when it actually comes down to it, they'll make comments like, we just started dating, or we've only— I've had that, I've seen it with clients, like even with saying I love you, like, but we just started dating, or like, we don't know each other that well. It's like turning it back on you when they were the ones who were painting this picture of the house, of the marriage, of our children's names. I've spent many hours looking at certain situations being like, but he told me we're gonna name our kid this, and he told me we're gonna live in this house in California. So yeah, And then being— and but it's like, but then he won't even call me his girlfriend. Like, what's that about? So that's a sign. That's an indication that something isn't normal there.

Yeah, it's almost like hooking you in with the love bombing. And then when you actually start to feel like, oh, this is a relationship, we should be doing relationship things or talking about these certain topics or planning for the future as they insinuated, they then bring on the gaslighting and they're like, wait, don't be psycho. You're crazy. We just started dating. And then you're like, wait, what the fuck is happening? I'm so confused because that disorients you from being able to see what's actually happening. Like the, the constant confusion and up and downs of, oh my God, we're so good. And then wait, he just made me feel like literal trash. But then, oh my God, he's so sweet. He bought me flowers and told me, you know, how proud he is of me. It's like this, this constant cycle, which is why it's so hard for people to get out of those relationships, I would imagine. I mean, you can speak from your own experience. Experiences and work that you've done with your clients. But yeah, it's not like it's all bad either, which is an important thing to bring to the forefront of the conversation because I think people would imagine, oh, if I was in a relationship with a narcissist, it would just be all bad and it would be awful. And so I would obviously want to break up with them. So can you speak to that sort of, you know, roller coaster of high highs and low lows and why it's so challenging to get out? Because it isn't all bad.

It isn't.

Yeah.

And the way I look at it is it's so similar to addiction because logically you can know like, okay, this relationship isn't good for me. I'll hear— I did it with myself. I've seen it with clients and people I've worked with and researched upon. This is logically, you know, you know, you don't want to keep doing this. But the moment, even as you said, like they'll make you feel like trash and then they'll they'll give you the flowers or praise you, that feels like such a high, a high. It's like all of the logic and reasoning goes out the door. And so one of the things is your body can physically become addicted to the chemicals and the hormones that go off when you feel that high in your body. And so a buzzword that goes around with narcissistic relationships is no contact. And the reason you go no contact is because you need to separate yourself from the relationship, from the feelings. Because when you are in it, like you said, you can be so clouded, your judgment isn't there. There's no discernment, there's no logic, there's no reason. You're literally sucked into it. Your body doesn't then even know what it feels like to feel clear of this relationship. So going no contact and getting out of the relationship is, is like the recipe of how to get out of it, but it's not easy. What comes with no contact is some people don't— people don't want to do this. It feels easier to stay in the chaos because no contact can feel like you're dying. It can feel like the IV, like the heroin has, you know, it's been taken, it's been removed from you, and that feels worse than the actual repercussions and consequences of doing the heroin. It feels like so much grief and so much despair that that in itself can feel unbearable to sit with, that people don't want to experience that.

Hmm. I think no contact when leaving or exiting any type of relationship, you know, maybe apart from if you share children together and you obviously want to co-parent. But I think a period of time where there's no contact is is wise and healthy for any relationships. But what is different about leaving a narcissistic relationship? And how has that experience been for you? Like thinking back to the, the different narcissistic relationships that you've gotten yourself in, the first time trying to get out versus the last time trying to get out. Like, let's do a contrast.

Yes.

Okay.

So the first one, I had gone no contact.

Yes.

But I would, I would break it. I would then justify in my head, especially if I'm missing this person or I'm in my feelings. So I would unblock them and I would reach out and I'd usually be apologizing or say, like, can we talk? I just need some closure. That was always my thing. I just need some closure. I just want to get together and have a conversation. And it would always turn into— it was the same cycle. We get back together for a little bit. I'm hooked in, and then his true colors would show again. And so I'd block him. And then the same thing would happen. Block, get back together, block, get back together until it got to the point where I wouldn't, I wouldn't tell my friends because of course they don't want to hear it anymore. And I was embarrassed. I had shame because like, I know better. I knew better. But I literally physically couldn't stop myself. And so that one did eventually finally end. But I will say, like, leading— it probably took like a year of blocking and no blocking. And so when it came to the last one, because I had been in so many relationships and because I've helped so many people with it, I was able to see it quicker. I wasn't fully immune to it though, because that person again showed up and presented felt totally different than, say, the first one. Totally different personalities, totally different actions, but underlying same feeling. And so the moment I started feeling those underlying feelings and my intuition was going off that something was wrong, this one I was able to, in a calm manner, release the relationship. And that's another— the first relationship, I was not calm. I was super frantic. I was super dramatic. I was super chaotic, emotional. Total different reaction than when it came to the last one. And that's one of the greatest pieces of advice, too, is when, when you're— but the thing is, with the last one, I fully decided. I decided there wasn't going to be this back and forth and there wasn't even room in my mind for the potential of it being done. With that first relationship, I still had it in the back of my mind. It could potentially work. The last one, I knew it was done. I had decided. So I was able to, in a calm, neutral, grounded place, release the relationship. And then I had literally zero, no temptation to reopen that door because I had fully decided and closed that door. And I knew I was done with narcissistic relationships.

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Can we talk about what he said to you that kind of raised a red flag for you with the last one?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I had told him that I missed him and that I, I loved that I was here on vacation with my girlfriends, but I still wish that he was there. And what he said to me was, "I can't wait for the day where you can learn to be present." And my stomach just dropped. And I remember that feeling of that stomach dropping. And I was like, I trust my body now. I trust my intuition. That wasn't right. I closed— my heart closed, and I just went quiet. And I got off the phone. And I went back to my room, and I just sat with it. And that's where I knew, like, that does not feel right. I do not want to feel that way when I'm genuinely being open and vulnerable, that I miss this person, and that I do wish that they were here. And that kind of response was not a response I would ever want to experience from somebody I'm with. A normal, healthy person would say, that's great, babe. So glad you're having fun. Go hang out with your girls. I can't wait to talk to you. Love you. Whatever. They wouldn't say, I can't wait for the day where you're present. And in that tone too, even just feeling and saying that, like, that's— that doesn't feel good. And that's where I knew I had to release that relationship.

And what you would explain to me about that, because there's like a million explanations for that, right? We could rationalize that all day long and we could say, oh, Oh, you know, like maybe they're feeling this way or this happened or they meant this or they wanted to say that or they had a hard day or whatever. And there, and there are a million explanations. But I think the important thing is that the feeling in your body was the indicator above all else, because that is more important than what the ego mind could tell us is the excuse or the reason. And I think that's a huge piece of in any relationship, whether it's narcissistic or not, or it has unhealthy dynamics for any other reason. I think that's a big part of why we stay longer than we know that we should. Once we're out on the other side, we're like, wow, why did I take so long to release that relationship? And it's because we haven't built that muscle yet of learning how to feel the intuition, know what it's telling us, and trust that feeling in our body. Because there's always going to be explanations. There's always going to be ways to say, oh, but, you know, I did this, or, you know, he's probably feeling that way, or he's lonely, or You know, it could have been a million things logically, yes. But the thing that sets it apart and makes it different is the feeling that you feel in your body of the knowing of this is not right. And what you had explained to me in that moment was it felt like, because you had had this experience many times before, it felt like when you were in a moment of freedom, enjoyment, fun, being at, at a high or a peak for yourself, and they were not part of it, they have to find little subtle ways to knock you down. Yes, to knock you down off of your, off of your high time, because they're not a part of it, they're not associated with it. So you can't be experiencing bliss, fun, enjoyment, adventure, all the things if they are not there. So they've got to, you know, put little comments in or, or little things that are going to knock you down.

Yes. Yeah, I— that's exactly what it is. And then it— yeah, it doesn't feel safe to fully be happy and free if then feelings like that are going to occur in my body. So it's like, let me dim down my happiness because I don't want to make them feel insecure, them uncomfortable, or because they're not here. When in reality, a healthy, supportive partner wants you to feel that way. Like, they thrive with seeing you thrive. And I— everything that you said is so important. It's how that comment made me feel, because we had another friend who, out of love and good intentions, was like, well, maybe were you being present? Or having me, me question it. And that's not a bad thing, but the thing is, is we can't be swayed by what other people say or how other people try to justify it. It's ultimately Do you want to feel that way in a relationship, whether they said something good or not? This is one of the things I just want to highlight, is that it's not about exactly what that person said. And that's why it can be hard to explain it to your girlfriends or to your mom or somebody else, because it's like, that wasn't that bad. But it's the energy, it's the feeling, and it's the, the intent that that person had behind it of how you experienced and interpreted it. They could have said something amazing and that's great and they can go say that to somebody else. But if it didn't feel right with you, that's what you have to trust above anybody else's justifications or even the words that that person said that might not be that bad.

And I think this is just a larger lesson about building the skill of, of trusting your intuition, knowing what it sounds like and being able to listen to it. Because again, regardless of whether it's a narcissistic relationship or any relationship that maybe you're just not fully happy or fulfilled in, could be even totally healthy, but it's just not feeling like it's the most aligned thing for you. What a lot of us do is we try to find someone to talk about it with or, you know, reflect what's been happening to somebody else so that they can reassure us that it's normal or that that has also happened to them or that, you know, it's, oh, that, you know, my husband says that or my boyfriend has done that or, you know, they can kind of like bring you down off of your height of feeling like, oh my gosh, maybe this relationship isn't aligned. And so that's the, the hard part about navigating relationships in general is not— is being careful to not outsource all of your power to the people around you in terms of like your friends or your mom or anybody else that you might talk to and trusting them and their experiences and their words more than you trust yourself and the feelings in your body. Because you could explain all day long what's been happening and somebody could go, oh, you know, like, that's happened to me before and it's fine. Like, maybe this was going on, or maybe he felt that way, or maybe you guys should try this, or it'll be fine, don't worry. And then you're like, oh, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. And you kind of soothe yourself by giving the power away to everybody else to tell you whether it's okay or not, when the truth is you know, in your body if it's okay or not, and you're just trying to find ways to not know the truth. I think that's a huge key, is when you know the truth, you can notice yourself finding ways or reasons to not know the truth or to unknow the truth, because honoring the truth of what you know in your body would mean pain. It would mean grief. It would mean confrontation. It would mean hard conversations. It would mean a breakup. It would mean being lonely. It would mean starting over. It might mean moving. It might mean disrupting other people's lives. It might mean a lot of things. And so we try to not know the truth.

Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, everything that you said, I couldn't even put it in better words. But it's, it's so true because so much can come along with knowing the truth and doing what you have to do. It can actually be our comfort zone to stay in a, in a relationship where that I had that drop from my heart to my stomach. And, and that's what we do as humans.

We don't—

we want to pretend like we don't know, or we just hope it will be different, or maybe this time it will change, or it will be different. Because it's in a— we still feel pain in avoidance of feeling pain. It's a very interesting phenomenon when in reality you can face the pain on the other end, but you have the opportunity to have magic and miracles, which in my case That was what happened. The biggest thing is, yeah, coming home to your body, trusting your body, trusting your intuition. But the biggest part too is having the courage to listen to it and to trust it and to take action and know that you will be okay on the other side of it. But it doesn't mean it's going to be easy or comfortable or you're going to just avoid pain. There are some things that you're going to have to navigate. And I, I say this a lot too, is you're going to feel grief from the relationship when it ends. You're— by avoiding the grief, we're still feeling grief. That's normal when you release a relationship, whether it was healthy or not healthy. That's a normal expression of our emotions. And so for me too, when I can accept and know that grief is gonna come along for the ride, I can then move through it and navigate it and allow it to pass through me instead of trying at all costs to avoid it. It's part of the process.

Mm-hmm. I love what you said about the pain of avoiding the pain. It's like such a paradox. We're like, oh, I'm so afraid of feeling the pain of leaving or doing what's right for me or pursuing my highest alignment or my true desires or how I actually want to be treated and received and held in relationship. I'm terrified of the pain. Of leaving, which leaves me with the pain of staying.

Yeah, you're not going to avoid the pain. When we look at it, it's like, oh yeah, I am in pain right now. I'll be in pain on the other side, but the other side at least gives me an opportunity to experience the joy and the love and all of the other things that could come with it. The pain that you're choosing to sit in and stay with, there then is no opportunity for all the other ways because that's the known, you know, and you know you can handle that pain. Why I think sometimes too, it's gonna be pain on the other side, but because it's unfamiliar, it can, that cannot feel safe because you don't know if you can tolerate or handle much more pain, but you will never know until you take that risk and allow yourself to at least have the opportunity. And that can go to absolutely any area in our life, obviously not just narcissistic relationships, with business, with finances, with anything.

So yeah, yeah, we experience that so often. You know, the pain of staying the same is a pain that at least we've become accustomed to. And it's not life-threatening to us because we're like, oh, you know, this is just— I hate this job and this is my life. I wake up every day and I feel dread and annoyance and frustration, and I don't like what I'm doing for the majority of my day and week in life. But I guess this is life, right? And that's the pain of staying the same. Whereas the pain of maybe quitting that job or leaving that relationship is like so uncertain and shaky of like, well, I don't know what would happen after that and what would I do and where would I go and how would I find another job? Or what if no one else loves me? Or what if there's no other relationship? Or what if I'm super lonely? Or what if I become poor? And so all of those question marks are what convince you to stay in the pain of of staying the same instead of choosing the pain of, of changing. Um, but I think the more stories that we can tell about what happens on the other side, the more that we can encourage people to have faith that there is life and joy and fulfillment and abundance and success on the other side of the pain of, of choosing to change. So I'd love for you to share with us your journey of moving past this pattern of continuously being attracted to narcissists and what it feels like on the other side.

Yeah, I'm happy to share this part. This is the good part, right? The magic. Yes. So even you said a few minutes ago, what could be on the other side of trusting my knowing is it might be painful. I might need to experience some grief, some loneliness. I might have to have a difficult conversation. I might have to ruffle some feathers in the process, somebody else might be inconvenienced, unfortunately, or disappointed through that choice of honoring my heart and releasing what was not good for me anymore. And that was what actually happened. All of those things that, yes, I did fear on the other side of not trusting my heart. But what I will say is, on the other side of that, I do get to experience the life and the freedom that I had been praying for. God, universe had actually now given me all of the things that I had been asking for and wanting. And God wasn't going to validate all of the ways I was doing beforehand. So yeah, now I am living in my dream apartment in Fort Lauderdale, and my business has been, has been going to the next level. But more importantly, I feel the opposite of how I felt in that relationship. Where I felt I was doubting myself or I was insecure, or I'm, I'm giving more to that relationship. And I'm in such a state where I feel genuine peace, I feel genuine contentment, I feel genuine happiness. And especially because I've had enough situations, experiences, I now know if a relationship doesn't make me feel this way or better, I am not even open and available to entertaining it. And I'm not open and available to falling for some of the things right away. Like, I'm allowing the slow build of a relationship and shifting into, do I like that person? Does this person contribute to my peace and to my happiness and my freedom? And I also have gotten to such a place where I know fully I can take care of myself, support myself, love myself, praise myself, give myself flowers, give everything to myself. So anything on top of that is a cherry on top. There's nothing I need from another person. And that's something that that relationship taught me. It taught me where I wasn't fully giving myself everything that I needed. But yeah, what I have noticed is after every single narcissistic or toxic relationship I have gotten out of, there has always been magic on the other side, 100%. But that didn't come with there still was a lot of pain and conversations, and it did require— I would say that the greatest thing is a lot of courage and a lot of trusting and taking it one step at a time, one day at a time, and reminding myself, even though this is painful, even though this is uncomfortable, I am okay and I've got this.

Yeah. And you even had to like move. Yep. Like you had to move out and move across the country. You know, you had to get a whole new place, you had to apply for apartments, and like, you had to do a lot. I did be able to facilitate the release of the relationship. And that's also a testament to you, like, honoring your truth and the knowing in your heart so fiercely. Because with additional obstacles that people may face of like, oh, but I would have to move out. And, you know, maybe we have things in our name together or something, you know, or we share an animal or, you know, God forbid things like that make it— they're just additional barriers to help you feel like you can get out. But that was just like inspiring to see you like really just like own the truth of knowing that that wasn't the person for you and being open and available to all of the hurdles that you were going to have to jump in order to get out and get to the next place.

Yeah. Yeah. That— and, and you said it good too. It's like that required action. Like, yes, I— and of course, too, like disappointing the roommate I was living with and trying to justify it in my head of all the reasons I should stay. Right, until, until I can't. And so picking up and moving, applying to places, applying to multiple, multiple places. I got denied from places too, having that fear of, oh my gosh, am I stuck here? Do I have to stay? To know I'm not giving up, I'm going to continuously apply and do whatever I need to do and figure out all of this.

And I did all of your stuff. Pack up all your stuff.

Yeah. And you know, the kicker too is like, I had just moved there. I had just moved there. And so that felt like another thing, like, oh my gosh, I literally just moved here. Like, that feels so unstable. Or I don't want to drive again across the country and do it. That felt like a huge inconvenience. I had just unpacked, just drove across the country to— oh my gosh, I have to go do that again. And I have to buy all new furniture now too, because I was living in a furnished place. So yeah, I feel like there could have been every obstacle in the book or every excuse that I could have wanted to make. And I said, no, I'm going to trust it no matter what. And honestly, that it has been the best decision I've ever made. And I have built up so much trust within myself, within the universe, that when something feels off or not right, I can trust and handle and navigate moving through whatever I have to go through to get through it. If you think of it too, as you're climbing a mountain, it's not always going to feel fun. It's not going to feel good. Most people are going to turn right back around and go back to the bottom. But if you really want to experience that view and that peace and that serenity, that joy, you do get to keep climbing. You get to keep taking action. You get to keep moving forward. Moving, and then you rest and then you relax. But to me, that's the kind of metaphor I really describe with everything I've had to go through to get to where I'm at right now.

Yeah, I think, you know, we think in our minds making the decision to leave a job or a relationship or anything that's not serving us is going to be the hardest part, is actually deciding and communicating that and saying, hey, like, this isn't for me anymore, like, I have to go. But that's just like the beginning of some other really hard things that have to happen. And so, yeah, I love that you've shared that metaphor of climbing the mountain, of knowing that, you know, the decision is just the first step and there will be some challenging steps that come after that. But it's all leading you to the peak, to the moment of really getting to see that beautiful view and take it all in and feel like you've arrived. So thank you so much for sharing that. And honestly, like, I'm just here for the slow build. I love that you said that. Like, cheers to a slow building relationship and letting that be okay. I think a lot of women, especially, you know, if you feel rushed in the dating process for whatever reason, because you're— you really want to find your person or you're just like really craving to be in relationship or you feel pressure to start a family or to get married or hit any of those milestones. Or you feel your biological clock ticking, you feel like you might be running out of time. If you feel rushed in the dating process, I think that can lead people to be more susceptible to those like really quick, you know, love bombing scenarios of falling for that and feeling like, oh my gosh, this is, you know, exactly what I need and want. And so remembering that regardless of, you know, you potentially feeling rushed for some reason, that having a slow build in a relationship is really healthy and it's really fun also because you don't, you don't squeeze all the juice out of it in a couple of weeks or in the first month. It's like you keep continuously, slowly discovering new parts of that person and new things that they say that make you feel alive. And, you know, you get slowly more and more intimate with them and knowing more parts of their heart and their life. And it's not all out on the table on day one. And it's really fun to go through the discovery process with someone new.

Yeah, I think that that would be fun. And because, yeah, the, the other relationships with the love bombing and whatever, it's like all the excitement, all the fun happens like quickly, like fireworks in the beginning, and then it's like and then what, you know? You're, you're in that relationship, that, that fun like kind of fizzles out. So it's like, let's keep that fun going but more consistent, more steady, more stable. And yeah, it's— what's coming to me too is, is being content in the season, the situation, or being single right now if you are, being so content in that and falling in love with that season wherever you're at, knowing that there's certain things in that season that you won't be able to do in, in other seasons. There's gifts of every season, and to really savor it— like, that's the word coming to, like, savor the season that you're in, being content with it if you're in a good space. Of course, if you're not, like, know that there will be some actions that you have to take. There will be some pain, some discomfort, but it's better than the pain and the discomfort that you're sitting in right now because you have that opportunity for all of the magic and that beautiful view that is waiting for you.

Yeah, I love that. So I'd love to leave everybody with some advice or tips for healing themselves, maybe in, in the sense of self-love, as I feel like that's something that you've touched on is sort of the cornerstone or the foundation of being able to either not get into narcissistic relationships to begin with or to heal and sort of find your way of navigating, getting out of them and moving beyond that is really building that core sense of self-love within yourself. So any advice for cultivating a sense of self-love? What are some things that you recommend? Obviously, we can't teach someone self-love in a 2-minute answer on a podcast. And I know you have a— I know you have a course that would be great if people want to go deeper into this self-love journey. But just for some, you know, little tangible takeaways that people can start implementing in their life right now, how can we cultivate a deeper sense of self-love?

Yeah, well, one of the things coming to me right now is what I would really do is write out what you are seeking in a partner, or what you are seeking in your current relationship. What is it that you're really wanting? And this is beautiful because when you can go through your list and look at it, you can see where you need to give all of those things to yourself and to be embodied in that. That is your ticket to freedom, especially with self-love, because there's nothing outside of you that you need from another person. And when you don't need something, you're not going to be attracted to other people that are not good for you. So that would be the first thing, using that list, but not hyper-focusing on— because you want your partner to be that way— using your list and turning it back on you so you can be all of those things and give yourself absolutely everything that you're wanting outside of yourself. That's the best thing that you can do with that. But one thing that I would be on the lookout is notice how you feel when you leave a conversation. When you get off a phone call, after you're driving from hanging out or going to coffee with someone, after a date, after a happy moment. Notice how you really felt. And also then have the contrast. Go hang out with someone you've been friends with for a while where you just feel like you can totally be yourself. You can talk to them for hours. They get you. There's no issue. And really compare the two and notice how you feel. What I would say is do not be available or tolerate any longer conversations or friendships or situations or relationships where you don't feel empowered or good when you leave talking to them. If you leave a conversation doubting yourself or feeling like they made some jabs, even though they didn't necessarily say something bad, trust your feelings. And it's okay if nobody else gets it too, or everyone loves that person. It depends on how you're feeling. You don't need to put yourself in situations and relationships any longer where you're not going to feel good. And so really honoring that, being okay to disappoint somebody in order to honor yourself and to honor your feelings. So I would say setting, setting some boundaries or having some conversations or releasing certain friendships and being okay if somebody doesn't doesn't like you. That's one of the core things. If you're okay with that, you can really be in your power and your confidence and only attract in healthy, soulful relationships.

Hmm. I think that's such a good unconventional tip for self-love. Like maybe people listening are like expecting you to say like, Bubble Bath, meditate, or like, yeah, Bubble Bath, take a bubble bath, or like go get yourself I'm like, and although there's nothing wrong with any of that stuff and we do deserve to like give ourselves self-care, what you're really speaking to, especially in this, this last tip that you gave, is about setting boundaries and releasing all kinds of relationships and people from your life that no longer serve you. And like you were talking about before, now being in this space, your business is growing. Your skin looks incredible, like you're thriving, you're in your dream apartment, you're living, you're going on your daily walks, you live near the beach and the marina, like you're living your best life. And you're like, if I get into a relationship in the future, it's going to make me feel as good as I feel now or better. And I think just reminding people that cultivating a sense of self-love and really attracting those types of soul connections, friendships, or relationships into your life is not just about who you're with romantically. It's about all the people that are surrounding you and that are pulling energy from you. And so I love that you kind of spoke to the importance of setting boundaries with anybody in your life that pulls from you or makes you doubt yourself or makes you feel less than or feels like they're inconspicuously in some way tearing you down, even though there's no explanation for how or why. Just tuning into those feelings and shedding those relationships, whether they are friendships or family members or neighbors. But putting distance between you and anybody that makes you feel that way is going to really build your own sense of like self-assurance and self-love, which is the thing that creates that magnet within us to be attracted to and attractive to the best kind of people. Yes. Yes. I love it so much. Thank you so much, Annelie, for sharing your stories and all of your tips on narcissistic relationships. I mentioned earlier that I know you have a course on self-love, but let everybody know where they can find you. And if they are experiencing relationships or they might be in a relationship with a narcissist or might be healing from that kind of relationship or are just looking to do deeper self-love work, how they can work with you and where to go in order to learn more.

For sure. Yeah. The best way to connect with me is on Instagram @drannalie. So if you just send me a message and let me know a little bit about where you're at, what you're navigating, maybe you're having questions of the current relationship you're in or the relationship patterns you've been in, I would love to help to support you navigate that, point you in the right direction. And yes, as Sam said, I do. I have all different courses at all different levels for all different kinds of needs with depending where you're at. But yeah, if you want to go deeper, I do have some one-on-one spaces available and I am in the process of creating a really amazing course for all of you. But yeah, start with just sending me a message on Instagram and we'll go from there. And just, yeah, I'm here to support you. Don't hesitate to reach out. This is my life's work, my life mission, and I'm happy to hear from you and talk.

We will link Annelie's Instagram in the show notes for you guys, so make sure you go and give her a follow. Reach out if you feel called to. And if you enjoyed this episode, make sure you take a screenshot and you tag me and Dr. Annelie so that we know you loved it. And if you're feeling called, leave a review or a rating for the podcast on Apple or Spotify, wherever you're listening. And we will talk to you guys very soon. Bye. Okay, so we just got off and we realized we missed some things and there's too many things to touch on. So I want you to share the stat of how many narcissists are in the world because this blew my mind when you told me this.

Yes, this blew my mind too. It's 1 in 5 people are actually narcissists. And gosh, why that is so freaking important is because there could be church leaders, there can be people that you're following, there can be people that you're looking up to and you have no idea what their actual motives are and intentions are. So it's so important to be aware of how many people actually are narcissists.

Like, pray for us all, because when you told us that, I was like, oh, No, literally pray for all of us. But I think when, when you realize, okay, 1 in 5 people, it just makes you realize that all of us likely have a narcissist in our life or know someone with narcissistic tendencies. So that's really valuable information, like you said, because there could be people that you're looking up to, there could be family members, there could be, you know, dynamics with with certain family members that you've never understood and you're like, oh, like, why are they like that? Or they're just so selfish sometimes. Or and then you're like, oh my gosh, like, this makes a lot of sense. But also one of the things that we were just talking about is knowing the lingo. So share those examples from the, like, a past relationship where they just knew the lingo, they knew the right words to say.

Yeah, this is huge. So the last relationship, the person I was with was calling and claiming that he was an empath and that he had such a huge following and a podcast and work and all of that, only to come to find out after being in relationship with him that his podcast, his following, his business was pretty much like nonexistent. It just did not exist to what he painted it out to be. And he was obviously the opposite of an empath. But because he studies empaths and conscious people, he knew exactly what to say to somebody who actually is empathetic and who actually is spiritual. So I've actually also been in another relationship where I fell for it, and he was— we talked about the conscious king. He would do divine masculine. We love that. He would do— he was like a man, divine masculine code. Coach and did all these fire ceremonies and did all these spiritual things. And he was huge in a community that I was a part of. Like, everybody loved this person. But here's the thing too, you gotta know, you don't usually find out or see or know these things until you're in romantic relation or deep friendships with people. So don't be fooled what you see on the outside, like, oh my God, he's so conscious, or he's so, he's so well reversed in something that you do too. Don't, don't fall for it. That's why we talked about, or we will talk about the— this— how do we call it? Not the slow burn, the slow build. So build, because then you really can get to see this person and what they really stand for. And are they actually who they present themselves to be, or are they just wearing a mask and presenting themselves, of how they want people to see them or look, look up to them.

So that's— yeah. So because we have so many women in this community that are really interested or deeply involved in their own spirituality, they're on spiritual awakenings, they're on this path of self-development, of uncovering all these different, you know, modalities and ways of healing, and probably follow lots of, of coaches and healers guides and people, it's, it's, it's relevant for us to talk about the gross amount of almost like, I don't know what's the best way to word it. But it's like, they, it's fake spiritualism. And it's pretending to be in that space so that you can prey on those people. It's like spiritual victimization or something. I don't know what to call it. But it's, it's like there's there are so many. Have you ever seen the meme? And this is not like totally an example of this. This meme is just like funny, but the meme that's like, text her at 11:11. Yeah, it's fate. But it's like, that's like some shit like a narcissist would do because they'd be like, oh, I'm going to, you know, and maybe they even do, maybe they even do meditate, maybe they even are a coach and they're doing those things. So you're like, oh, they're into that stuff. Like, they must be such a good, heart-centered, quality person. But they're doing all of those things because they know what it gets them. They know that it gets them closer to the right people. And they know that it creates this facade, this image where people really want attention from them. People really want to be in their space. People want to learn from them. People want to get advice from them. People want to be close to them. People want to be in relationship with them. And when you are in a relationship with them, you feel like, oh, they're kind of important, they're kind of maybe famous in some way. They are also a coach, they're also spiritual, they're also a creator, they're on Instagram, so I'm going to post about them a lot. So they get a lot of those like ego hits, those dopamine hits that narcissists need of being constantly validated by being in that space under a total like pretend lens of, you know, I'm just going to buy into all this stuff and do all of it because it puts me in the right place. And we've heard so many stories from people that have gotten into relationships with these kinds of people, how they turned out to be like legitimate, like sexual predators and like really bad people.

Really bad people. Because again, they are brilliant. It's the perfect environment, actually. And this is where I used to fall for it because I was like, oh my God, they're spiritual. They think the same way as me. Like they would never steal or lie lie or cheat or anything until I realized like those people will put themselves in that environment, which makes it even more dangerous because you open up and you're vulnerable and you're trusting and you're living in love and light, right? And then you can get so knocked down on your ass because they knew exactly what to say, exactly what to hook you in. And yeah, they were just doing it to study, but they're actually very smart because that is where a lot of vulnerable, open-heart-centered, kind people, which is the kind of people they prey on, are in those environments. It's really sick. It's really twisted. Like, it's definitely messed up. And I have to share this with you because this one really landed with me. Wanting like a narcissist or a toxic person to change or to be cuddly and loving is like wanting a crocodile to roll over so you can rub its tummy. And I know it's a funny example, but for me, what I realized is like, it's not that a crocodile isn't valuable, like, in society, or like a beautiful creature, but that's not something that the— we're not meant to like cuddle up and be cozy with a crocodile. Like, we know to stay away from the crocodile, view it from afar, but not get in close relationship, and that actually helped me with how I view narcissistic people, because what my mindset used to be was that everyone is good, everyone is loving, I can make them love me, or I can make them warmer, loosen up, and that kind of thinking was what kept me also getting into relationships hoping this person would change, or hoping or wishing the best for this kind of person. So that analogy really helps me. It's just some people people you don't just cuddle up with. Some people, they don't just come into your bedroom. Like, you don't need to cozy up with someone who's not meant to be cozied up with. So yeah, I had to share that example because that really landed with me, to not just try to just assume everyone is a good-hearted, loving person like, like I am, or a lot of the friends I do attract. Not everyone is.

Well, I think, I think that also speaks to, you know, the desire to want to help people and to want to maybe help someone heal or find a way to, quote unquote, like fix them, right? Like sometimes we can take on that role of being the fixer in the relationship. And so feeling like, you know, I, I'm just going to try and make them be cozy and cuddly and try to find ways to fix them. But that's not really— there isn't a way for that to actually happen when you're in a narcissistic relationship. Like you're not going to be the person to change them. Unfortunately, you're not going to be the person to heal them or to like— you're not going to be the person that like they love so much that they just get over all of their narcissistic tendencies. And I think that's a fake story that we put in our heads a lot too in relationships is I'm going to be the one that like is an exception to the rule in that way.

And something that really helped me too was maybe you can have hope for them and hope that they do change., but it doesn't have to be on your watch. You don't have to suffer the consequences of feeling terrible every day in the name of hoping that they do change and they do get the proper healing. It doesn't have to be at your expense. Wish and hope for the best, but don't put yourself in harm's way while you're waiting for that to happen.

Yeah, so good. All right, we'll end it here. We just needed to add those few little things. Thank you so much, Annelie.