Neuroscience Hacks to STOP Doom Scrolling & Optimize Your Life w/ Nicole Vignola

What's up guys, welcome back to the podcast. We've got another juicy episode for you this week. I am joined by Nicole Vignola, who is a neuroscientist, corporate consultant, author, and speaker committed to making neuroscience tangible for the masses. Her performance coaching methods support individuals and organizations with high-pressure decision makers to improve their mental capacity and acuity through creating healthy physiological and cognitive habits. Nicole enables individuals to best support their mental health, manage stress, optimize reflexes, and reach peak mental performance. With 12 years of coaching experience, a bachelor's in neuroscience from the University of Bristol, and a master's in organizational psychology from the University of the West of England, and a community of over 450,000 followers on Instagram as Nicole Neuroscience, I couldn't be more excited to have her on the show and to share this conversation with you. So today we are going to get into topics like how to chase real dopamine, the effects of alcohol on the brain, why boredom could be the best thing for you and your mental health right now. Dopamine detoxes and the best way to do it. Phone addiction— how to stop unconsciously reaching for your device and doom scrolling. Why you probably need to start showering in silence. How to stop overthinking for real. And the art of holding space for someone else's heavy emotions without getting triggered. This conversation is so juicy and we get into so, so much. I know you guys that love personal development, mindset work, all the things, are going to find this fascinating and so interesting.

So let's dive in. Welcome to the Makeshift Happen podcast. I'm your host, Samantha Daly, entrepreneur, life coach, and your no BS bestie, here to bring you all things mindset, manifestation, and personal development. This podcast is designed to help you expand your mind and uplevel your life. So turn the volume up and roll the windows down if you're coming along for the ride. Let's go make shit happen.

Welcome to the show, Nicole. I am so excited to have you. I can't wait to get into all things neuroscience, brain health, mental wellness, like, and really just like nerd out on all these things. It's so funny because when I was growing up, I was always fascinated by psychology, but I hated like science and math. So I just knew that I could never go into like a career path like that. But then I got into coaching and mindset, and I was like so fascinated by the subconscious. And so it's kind of funny how like those topics came into my life through another sort of profession. But I always really look up to and admire actual like scientists, like neuroscientists. I'm like, that is so cool, because I know you probably had to do so much schooling, but I love these topics so much, and I know that my audience does as well. So I'm really, really excited to dive in with you and like just nerd out on all this stuff.

Well, firstly, thanks for having me, and I'm so sorry that you felt limited by your mathematics abilities because I had the same thing actually. I did manage to scrape through, um, into neuroscience with my B in maths. So yeah, I think, I think if you did want to do it, I don't think people are being so stringent on grades. Of course, to some degree, you know, you have to have A's and all that jazz. But I did get a B in maths. I redid my schooling when I was 25, actually. So I did my— so we have GCSEs in England, which are whatever you do when you're 15, 16. I didn't go to school in England, but I had to redo that at the age of 25 to get into A-levels, which is what you do when you're 18. So I basically redid all of high school in my 20s, mid to late 20s, to get into university because I did fail high school.

Oh my God. Well, that's like inspiring in and of itself, just like a testament to people of like, if you have a dream of something that you want to do or that you're really committed to, like, there's no right or wrong timeline. And when you put your mind to it, you can really accomplish it. So amazing. Was there something in your life, in your family dynamic, in your personal lived experience that made you really passionate about mental wellness, neuroscience, and these things?

Yes, well, a lot. I come from an extremely difficult background. You know, my father was schizophrenic. He took his own life, unfortunately. And my stepfather was an alcoholic. So, but amongst all of this, I was always deeply fascinated with the kind of the, the, the, the science of the mechanisms of why this was happening. You know, I didn't— obviously I was interested in psychology, and I, and I'm not diminishing psychology as a practice, but I wanted to know what's happening on a cellular level for people to be a particular way. Like, what, where are these disorders residing within the brain? So I was fascinated with that, and I— yeah, that's why I got into neuroscience.

Wow. Yeah. I mean, that sounds like a really challenging childhood for sure. How has that kind of shaped the way that you see the world and the work that you do?

Yeah, I mean, I was always very lucky. I don't know, I never— of course I went through the blame period, but it was always more curiosity. So when I see things in the world and I see people behave a particular way, or like I just had a video go viral on alcohol and we can maybe chat about that later, but it's interesting to me the vile and awful things I'm reading, but I don't get triggered by it. I I'm fascinated by the different ways that people interpret a video that's providing facts without judgment, without— of course, it's only 90 seconds, so there's no opinion on that. It's just you're providing the information. And some people have taken it one way and other people have taken another way. And it's interesting to see. And I find that I've always just been very curious by like, yeah, human behavior and why we behave in the way that we do.

Is this the video where you share like that as little as one drink can affect the brain and just kind of like sharing those facts of how alcohol does have an effect even if you're not a heavy drinker, on your mental health?

Yeah, so exactly. And you know, when you listen to the podcast, I explained that there's of course nuance to it. This is one study and it's correlational. There's, um, you know, we are seeing that unfortunately we've been sold a lie. We were told that red wine is healthy for you and you should drink it with your meals, but unfortunately that isn't the case. Um, but at no point have I said, you know, you need to stop drinking. It's just about informing people so we can make informed decisions, so that we can be aware instead of, you know, getting into our 60s, 70s, 80s and Well, I don't feel good, but why? You know, and there's no, there's no blame there. There's no— I don't want people to feel awful because they do drink. You know, I still drink on occasion. You know, I just pick my moments. I won't, I won't just drink for the sake of it because we're celebrating at home for whatever. You know, it'll be— I pick my moments and that's what I want people to know. I just want them to know.

Yeah. Yeah. And is this, is this related to like the way that alcohol affects our brains? Can you explain a little bit of what actually could happen or what that does? Are you talking about like mental decline later in life, dementia, Alzheimer's? Like what are the actual connections?

Connections? Yes, so it appears that we— so we have gray matter in the brain and we have white matter. Now, they are responsible for communicating information in the brain, and what we've seen is that with, um, alcohol intake, even up to 4 drinks per week, shows a diminished, uh, sort of gray matter and white matter volume in the brain. Now, what are the repercussions of that? We're not entirely sure. There's, you know, dementia, Alzheimer's— these are all multifactorial, um, diseases, neurodegenerative diseases. We can't pinpoint alcohol to one thing. There are many people who drink alcohol up until their 80s, 90s. My grandmother drank one every single day, um, actually, and she lived to 100 and she was absolutely fine. But, um, you know, it's all about understanding the risks and, and doing it. You know, I still eat chocolate cake even though, you know, sugar in excess is bad. And I, you know, I'm not going to stop any of that to a certain degree. I'm just not going to have chocolate cake every day in the same way that I'm not going to drink every single week. So yes, alcohol appears to diminish gray matter and white matter volume in the brain. So it actually quite literally is shrinking the brain. And we also know that because in chronic alcoholics, uh, chronic alcohol intake, we've seen there's an atrophy in the brain. And it's— the brain scans are actually quite scary in alcoholics because once the neuron dies off, we can't regenerate that. Now, there's another argument on that, on that, um, video, and that is that there is speculation for neurogenesis, which is the formation of new neurons. That appears to only happen in two areas of the brain, and they are at the moment clinically insignificant. So just because there may be speculation that we can regenerate these neurons in this particular area doesn't mean that we can undo any brain-wide cortical damage that we have done through alcohol intake.

Yeah, I think this is so fascinating. And like, for me, like, I drank a ton when I was younger. I was, you know, binge drinking in high school and college, doing all the things. But the more that you know, the better that you can do. And like, I enjoy being like largely sober in my life nowadays, but I'm kind of like you where when there's an occasion, if it's a fun thing, um, I will have a drink drinker too. And so yeah, I love this approach of not necessarily like the fearmongering of like all these bad things are going to happen to you if you did do this, or— but it's more like the, the moderation and just the education of like knowing how this impacts us. Because we have been told that red wine is good for you and you should, you know, drink a glass a day and whatever. But I always think back to, you know, at some point people also said that like cigarettes were fine. So it's like we're constantly like learning new things and, um, discovering more about the health impacts of our everyday— even things like caffeine. And, and there's so many arguments for stuff like that. And so, yeah, it's just interesting to see it from the kind of like neuroscience perspective, for sure. So I want to talk a little bit about dopamine, this idea of like real dopamine versus, I guess, like fake dopamine, or these like quick automatic sources of dopamine. You had a post that I've seen reposted by so many people where it's like, you know, make sure that you're getting real dopamine, which is the sunlight, cold showers, meditating, getting good sleep, dancing, being outside in nature. So what is the difference between this real dopamine, and why is it important that we strive for these dopamine sources that actually require effort from us rather than these kind of like hit, like quick hit, automatic, instant gratification sources of dopamine?

It's a good question. Um, so all dopamine is real dopamine. Um, I, I use that term because I wanted people to get out into the real world. I used it as a metaphor, which, you know, many people took on very well. A lot of scientists scrutinize me for that term, but I don't care because I think the metaphor lands pretty well. And that is to chase real dopamine. Because, and as I said, real— all dopamine is real. The dopamine you get from your phone, the dopamine you get from chocolate, cigarettes, sex, alcohol, drugs, is the same as the dopamine that you get from sunlight, uh, exercise, etc. The difference is the effort that is involved to attain these hits of dopamine. So when we engage in an activity that requires effort and a long-term gain to gain this dopamine, there's a much slower trajectory. So it rises, but it's not such a volatile high. And then what happens is it maintains for quite a long period of time. So if you exercise in the morning, you're still going to raise that dopamine, but it's going to be in a way that is maintained throughout the rest of the day, which can help you become more productive. The problem is when you have quick and easy fixes of dopamine. So let's say your phone, for example, that's a hit of dopamine. It's going to spike it up quite high, then it's going to drop quite quickly. Now, every time dopamine drops, there's a rebound period because dopamine needs to replenish. And so it goes., and by the end of the day you're essentially— and before you know it, you're kind of on this roller coaster hamster wheel of doom scrolling, knowing that you need to work out but you can't get off the sofa because you don't have enough motivation. And what I'd say to that is, of course you don't have motivation. A, you're lying down on the sofa and that's not going to be very sort of motivating to want to go and exercise when you're in that position. And B, you're, for lack of a better term, depleting your dopamine system so that you have none left for the things than require effort. So all dopamine is real. But what I want people to understand is like, it's better to get it from the real world, doing real things, exercise, dancing, laughing, running, cold water, etc. Now there's no morals on dopamine. Use your phone if you want to. But again, it's about having that informed decision. There are times where I doomscroll on TikTok and I'm going through reels and I'm having the time of my life. I'm really enjoying it. I'm laughing. I'm like, oh my God, sending my partner all these like reels and I'm enjoying it., but I'm there consciously doing that instead of letting it affect my life, letting it affect my work, and then complaining that I can't, that I'm not productive. And that's, that's what I want people to understand is that we have a lot more control over these things than we are led to believe, than we are taught. And my, my, my goal is to teach people how to hack that system so that you can enjoy the doom scroll, you can enjoy the chocolate. I'm not going to tell you to enjoy drugs and alcohol, but you know, but just be conscious of the things that you're doing, right? Because without— let's use drugs and alcohol as an example. You have this pain, pain, pleasure, pain. Oh my God, it's the end of the day for me. Pain, pleasure scale. And every time you feel something good and it's dopaminergic activity, there will be a bit of pain that follows that. And that pain comes in the form of, I want more. I want to stay on my phone. I want to watch another episode. I want another drink. I want more drugs. And if you give in to that system enough, you upset that scale that turns into addiction. Now, to reset that system, you have to sit within that discomfort of wanting more. So that is why when you find yourself sort of in a loop wanting to be on your phone, sitting in that discomfort of knowing that you want to go on it, but abstaining can actually reset that system. And you'll see that within an hour or whatever it is, I don't know exactly how much time, everybody's different. You won't feel the urge as much to go on. It's the same concept when you delete Instagram on a Friday. I don't know if you've ever done this, but as an experiment, maybe you should try. Delete your Instagram on a Friday and you'll feel that it's like hell the first day. You're like, I just want to go on my phone and maybe even click where the app used to be. But by Sunday, you've kind of like forgotten about it. Doesn't mean as much to you anymore.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so interesting. I, I did last year, I did like a 10 or 12 day— well, I think my intention was to do a week of no social media, so I deleted it. And once like it was the end of the week, I was like, I want to go more time. So I ended up doing like 10 or 12 days because it just like felt so good. Um, and actually yesterday I was in one of those like kind of doom scroll moments, but not one of the fun ones, one of the ones where you're like, I have so much to do, I need to get stuff done, but you're kind of like using it as a way to procrastinate and avoid the hard things. So you're like, I should get off of this, I should stop, but then like you can't, and you keep finding new notifications to click, and then it's just going on and on and on. And then finally I was like, I need to get away from the phone. So I like locked it up, put it away, and then I had the most productive like 3 hours of work. And I walked back into my bedroom at one moment and I saw my phone sitting there, and I had like completely forgotten about it, like no urge to grab it or look at it. So yeah, it's so interesting how when you can get yourself away from it for a certain period of time, it doesn't feel as tempting anymore. But sometimes that's the hardest part, is like ripping yourself away. And I'd love to kind of hear your perspective on this idea of like dopamine detoxes. So with the same way that like all dopamine is real, I totally understand that you can't like ever fully detox from dopamine because we're always going to have dopamine in our system. But I have heard people talk about this as a way to kind of break that cycle of reward-seeking behavior and intentionally like stripping a lot of the classic like dopamine sources from their life, whether it's for like a day or a week or some sort of like sustained period of time. Like, do you recommend this? What are your thoughts on trying to like detox from some of this dopamine?

Yes, I think it's a really good tool. I would say that probably abstaining for a week and going on a dopamine detox for a week is probably going to not be detrimental but a lot sort of harder to manage. What I, what I think would be more beneficial is if people do it on a daily basis in a more regulated way. And what that could mean is maybe putting your phone away at 7 o'clock and not checking it until 9 in the morning versus doomscrolling until 11:00 every single night and then detoxing for a week just to go back to your old patterns anyway. So I think it's better to implement something that's more moderated across a timespan rather than doing drastic kind of like seesaw-like activities or however you want to call it.

Yeah. So I've heard of people doing this, like getting rid of social media, all forms of like entertainment, no TV, no, not— I think people have done it with like not even books, no sex, no sugar, like trying to get like all of it like out for like a period of time. Time. And I, I find it fascinating. I mean, even just for like a day or two, I think it would be extremely interesting to see first your resistance of like, of like feeling how much you wanted those things, and then that kind of like leveling out that you talked about of where you actually don't even— you don't feel as inclined to like reach for it or feel like you need it.

Yeah, I think it would be interesting to also see what then something like social media would feel like after that. I mean, ideally you wouldn't go back straight into social media, maybe be something like a film. Um, but yeah, I think So what I'm thinking is that you'd probably be quite overstimulated then, but I would imagine anyway. So I have a really interesting genetic mutation. So I have a mutation that basically means that I don't have a COMT enzyme. So COMT is an enzyme that breaks down dopamine once it's been released from the synapse. So what happens with me is my brain will release dopamine like everybody else's, but then there's not enough enzymes to break down that dopamine to reuptake it back into the synapse, or, you know, repurpose it, if you will. And so I can get really overstimulated by social media quite easily. And it's the reason why I'm actually very strict about not scrolling on my phone late at night, whereas my partner could like scroll and then turn over in bed and just fall asleep. And I'm like, that's amazing, I could never do that. And I get quite irritable as well, like if I can hear his like videos playing in the background, like it's quite like almost a bit jarring for me. And it's because of that. So it's really interesting just as a fun side note.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that is so interesting. It's— I'm kind of like that with caffeine, but like the opposite, like it doesn't affect me at all. Like I could drink a cup of coffee and like go to to sleep. And like, someone else would be like, I could never do that. Like, I'd be so way too like stimulated to do that. But I, I wanna, I wanna lean more into this idea of like phone addiction because I know it's something that so many of us are struggling with at whatever level. Because like, we all carry our phones with us everywhere. Like, when's the last time that you've been without your phone in the past, you know, 5, 7, 10 years? I don't know. Like, it's kind of crazy. I was having this thought today. I'm actively trying to implement more like silence in my life because I find that when you know, we're just consuming podcasts, audiobooks, trainings, information, personal development content, like all the time. Even when we're like showering, cooking, walking, all these things that we used to do in silence. I was thinking today as I was showering, I was like, and getting ready, I just was intentional about like, I'm not going to listen to anything while I'm doing this. I'm just gonna do this in silence, like the old days when I was like a teenager and I would have to like live my life in fucking silence. Um, but, but yeah, it's so crazy how we are just constantly being entertained and stimulated all day long. So I know so many of us have some sort of phone addiction, whatever that, you know, looks like, whether we're recognizing it or not. Can you talk a little bit about like why this phone addiction is happening, why it's so prevalent, and how we might be able to start to break it?

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Yeah, it's funny you say that. I was having that exact thought a couple of days ago where I thought— so I tend to try and leave my phone upstairs when I come down to watch TV, just to be separated from it. And it's weird because I do have this automatic reaction to want to grab something and nothing's there, which is just weird. So I don't know if you can resonate with that, but I've definitely noticed it in my life for sure. And, you know, so one, they is so dopaminergic activity. Dopamine is a reward-based learning mechanism that tells you whatever made you feel good, go to that again because you know that you can feel good in this place. And unfortunately, your phone is one of those things where it's just easy access. It's like having unlimited chocolate on tap all of the time, but better. That's why it can be so addictive. Now there's another layer to that, and that is that your brain will have created pathways that will ingrain whatever you have habituated. So what that means is when you walk into a room, you don't think about how you put on the light, you just do it in the same way that you don't even think about your phone, picking it up. You just, you just do it. It's automatic. It's like just something that happens. And I don't know if you've ever had it when you go out. I, I remember going out once and I had this little like satchel, like over, kind of like crossbody satchel, and I left my phone at home purposely. And I remember reaching into it for no particular reason to grab my phone, which was not there. And it's interesting because it's your brain seeking dopamine, knowing that it can get it from the phone, and then the mechanisms of your actions moving to habitually pick up that phone to get that dopamine hit. And if left unchecked, it can become super addictive. And well, it is. Even if, even if checked, it still is. So, you know, there are ways that you can mitigate that by, A, putting in a different room, actively leaving it in different places. So I often go out and I leave my phone at home because sometimes my partner and I will go out for dinner and I'll say, let's not go on our phones tonight. And within 30 minutes, we're both like just checking social media real quick in a break of conversation, which, you know, is so prevalent and common. Um, so I, I make leave our phones at home. And it's a struggle sometimes, but it does get better. It does get easier.

Yeah, it's so weird how we become like— you, like, you're a zombie, sort of. Like, you're just like— it's one of those— it becomes one of those autopilot things. It's so— like, I've definitely had that before where I'm like, all right, I really need to get work done. I need to be separate from my phone. I put it in another room, and then I find myself— it happens to me a lot when I'm like doing something that is gonna require a lot of like hard thinking or effort, or like I have to really focus, and it feels like this hard task. So then my brain automatically reaches for the phone of like, oh, I'd rather have that than like sit and try to solve this puzzle or figure this thing out or like do these numbers or whatever it is. So it's like you can witness yourself being that sort of like autopilot zombie of like, don't want to do hard things, just give me the quick dopamine.

It's, it's sick. Yeah. Well, the brain is wired, or it can be wired, to prefer short-term hits versus long-term goals. So delayed gratification If, if you are used to taking the path of least resistance, then that is what your brain will prefer. But we can train ourselves to embrace this sort of long-term or delayed gratification. Now, there's a couple of ways to do that. One, through practicing it. But also there's research to show that when we actively put ourselves in situations that are difficult and we overcome them, we strengthen parts of the brain that help us with motivation and to overcome the feeling of discomfort. So that could be— this is why I love things like ice baths. And I know there's a lot of like woohoo online, like, oh my God, we're sick of this now, we're bored of this like fad. But for me, it's actually the easiest way to do something hard because it takes so much resistance to get over wanting to get into that ice bath. But once you've done it, it's like it's only a few minutes rather than having to go on a hike and endure a whole 2-hour, you know, charade on the mountain. We can then increase our resilience to wanting to do harder things that can translate into coming home after work and thinking, I'm really tired, I don't want to cook tonight, I'm going to order in. If you practice doing hard things enough, your brain will be able to override that and say, hey, let's do the hard thing and do the cooking. And you're more likely to then engage in those kind of delayed gratification activities that we know are better for us. I mean, not all takeaway is bad, of course, but you know, people have, you know, finances and, you know, budgets and, and, and then diets as well. So there's a multifactorial issue there.

Yeah, well, and it's just kind of like how when you start your day off with allowing that instant gratification choice to be the first choice that you make, you're more likely to make more of those choices and just kind of get on that hamster wheel of like wanting. And that's why I think a lot of people experience this. When you start your day off really well, or with some of those like harder choices, we'll say in air quotes, to do something that is really beneficial for yourself and makes you feel good even though it requires effort, you're more likely then to have a better rest of your day and like continue that sort of like healthy pattern. We notice this with, you know, choosing to make the bed or do a morning routine or exercise first thing in the morning or have a healthy breakfast. Like, you're more likely after that to like continue those healthy habits. So yeah, it's just interesting how what you choose to do first kind of dictates what comes next.

Yeah, exactly. Because if you spike that dopamine too early on in the day with the easy choice, then as I said, you're on this trajectory of chasing that dopamine to get that same level of feeling good. So now all of a sudden, to do something like a workout after social media use is going to be even harder than it would have been if you hadn't done social media. Whereas if you did that first, then you're— yeah, you're more likely to, to, to do the habits that are good for you.

Yeah. So you talked about like, you know, kind of doing these harder, mentally more challenging things, but I'm curious about this idea of cognitive overload where like a lot of high-order thinking throughout the day can kind of then lead to mental fatigue. This is why I think a lot of people find it harder to make good is like later in the day as opposed to like early in the day. And we of course talked about that, you know, constant sort of consuming that we're doing of content, podcasts, audiobooks, trainings, personal development. We're thinking a lot, we're processing. Like even when we're resting or taking a break, we're actually engaging our minds a lot and we're learning and trying to digest information. I know this is really prevalent for that kind of section of my audience that are entrepreneurs, coaches, like people that are always trying to better themselves. So even in all of their breaks, they're doing this kind of like high-order thinking. What is the— yeah, what's the consequence of that? And how do we actually— like, what is a proper break? Because I think none of us are actually doing breaks like what— with what an actual break should be.

Yes. So this is my area of research, and, uh, you know, the way that I describe it is, A, if you don't take a mental break, your brain— your brain will take one for you. And you can either choose to slot it in at the right time, or it's going to hit you at the wrong time, maybe during a podcast, or you start blanking out when you're in a meeting, or whatever. So if you can be strategic with your breaks, then you have autonomy as to how you're going to feel for the rest of the afternoon. Now we have, you know, a limited amount of cognitive capacity on a daily basis. And the way that I've explained it, and not in the research, but when I explained it to sort of, you know, the wider audiences, I've called it mental currency. So you've got this bank of energy, mental energy, that you can spend every single day. And every night you replenish that bank, like the tooth fairy comes in and puts more money in. And what are you paying? What are you using that currency for? If you are at work for 8 hours a day, you're spending money on that. If you don't take a break, then you, you know, you're sort of depleting that bank. Now you can replenish that bank system or that currency by taking these mental strategic breaks, because if you don't, you're essentially— it's almost like you're walking on a treadmill for 8 hours a day. That's your 9 to 5. Then you've got to come home and do more things. So that's, you know, a different kind of workout. You move on to the stationary bike, and then you move on to, I don't know, the rower, because you've got chores and you've got cooking to do, etc. And before you know it, you're exhausted. So taking these strategic breaks can help us replenish energy stores that we can then get home and make better decisions. So what do those breaks look like? Well, anything that means you're not engaging in something that's stimulating. So that could walk. Ideally, it's a calm walk, no headphones, no music. I mean, some music's fine. I mean, we don't know in research. I'm just sort of speculating that without music will probably be better than with music. But I definitely wouldn't listen to like a podcast or anything like that. You can close your eyes, take a proper sort of mental break. It's, you know, Dr. Huberman's calling it an NSDR, a non-sleep deep rest. I call it a sort of mental break where you're just shutting off from the world, whether it's a meditation or you're just sitting there with your eyes clothes, whether it's a nap, whatever that means to you, just something that helps you disconnect from the outside world so you can just go in and replenish and check in on yourself. How are you doing? What's up? We're going to cook later or not?

Do you think this is like— are we talking like midday? Like this is after your lunch break? Or like when is it? Just depending on like your energy levels, is it— can you do this like first thing in the morning and it serves for the rest of the day, or does it need to be like in the middle of all of the, like, you know, high mental stimulation of work?

It needs to be in that dip. So around 2, 3, 4 o'clock, you know, there are times where I have evening podcasts. I tend to not do any podcasts past this time. This is the cutoff that I do because I'm just babbling. I mean, I did a podcast at 7:30 PM last night and I actually feel really bad for the guy because I was— I don't think I was very eloquent. I was just kind of like, oh, on a cycle. And I could feel myself like, your brain's not working, Nick. But even before this podcast, I just shut my eyes for 5 minutes and just kind of like sat there and just tried to reinstate some energy because I just got off another podcast. So it's like, you know, one thing after the other. And so these strategic breaks can be hugely, hugely helpful in making sure that you are maintaining this kind of cognitive ability to some degree for the whole day, or at least mitigate some of the effects because there will be naturally some decrement and that's normal.

Yeah. What is your perspective on things? You mentioned meditation. Like meditation, hypnosis, I know you're also a fan of. How does that kind of contribute to this idea of giving ourselves deep mental rest?

Yes.

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So obviously I'm the neuroscientist in residence at Reverie, and they are a self-hypnosis app that was curated by Dr. David Spiegel. He's got 45 years of clinical experience at Stanford Med, so he's the chair of psychiatry there. And self-hypnosis is a form of this kind of mental break. It allows you to go in and kind of work on whatever it is that you're trying trying to change. So the way that I explain it is meditation is like a mental break, self-hypnosis as well, but self-hypnosis adds another layer to it where it helps you visualize or change something that you are trying to change in your life. So it could be a habit, it could be anxiety, it could be improved focus. So on the app, they actually have an improved focus session. They also have a Be Present session, which is really interesting because it helps you kind reconnect with the, the current state you're in. So the way that Dr. Siegel describes it, describes it, is, you know, when you go into a cinema and you kind of forget the whole world exists, that's kind of self-hypnosis, what that is. Because we have so many competing distractors all of the time, self-hypnosis can kind of help you kind of re-engage that— tunnel vision isn't the right word, but it's that kind of ability to just zone in on what it is that you to do. So you can kind of mentally prep yourself for whatever it is that you want to do. On the app, he guides you through different things— sleep, anxiety, worry. There's also, you know, fear of flying. But the one that I use is definitely the focus one and the be more present. So I didn't have time to do it before this podcast, but sometimes— a couple of weeks ago, I had a podcast that was really important, and I was in the middle of— I'm trying to— we're trying to buy a farm, and it's just been honestly the most stressful thing I've ever done in my time. And I've done a neuroscience master's, so, uh, you can imagine how stressful it is. And I remember having to go, I just received like sort of annoying news about something and I had to go straight into this podcast and I did the Be Present hypnosis to just kind of zone in. And what's really interesting is that I did, I snapped, I snapped into what I needed to snap into and kind of blocked everything else out. And that's the power of self-hypnosis is that you have the ability to shift your state to whatever it is that you need. So if it is from I'm too active and I need to calm down so that I can sleep, you can do that. If you're like, I am too distracted, I need to zone into what I need to do, you can do that. And that is so, so wonderful about self-hypnosis.

How long? Because I've done hypnotherapy for a while and I love those sessions with my hypnotherapist. I call it like adult nap time, especially if you put it in like the middle of the day and, you know, someone just like guides you into that, like, juicy, like, hypnosis state. You wake up, you feel so blissful. You're like, oh my God, you feel like you're floating on a cloud.

But that obviously takes a while.

How long are these self-hypnosis sessions typically on the app? Can you do— because you're mentioning doing it right before a podcast. Is it like 10 minutes, 15 minutes? Can we do them quickly?

Yeah. So there's two options. They've got the interactive option, which is around 8 to 10 minutes. And then you've got the just listening option, which is is around 5 to 6 minutes. So if I'm on the go, or not on the go because obviously you need to close your eyes for it, but if you just have a few minutes before a podcast, then I'll do the, the just listening one depending on how much time I have. But yeah, 10 minutes, which is amazing. So you can literally change your life, your state, your day in 10 minutes.

Yeah, that's incredible. I know a lot of people, um, struggle with overthinking, anxiety, and I would love to hear you kind of speak about the connection to this connection of overthinking to cortisol and stress and how that's related. Um, because I think a lot of people are like, oh, I'm just such an overthinker, I overthink a lot, but they're not really clear on how to navigate improving that, healing that, working through that. Um, but I believe that like you are not stuck as an overthinker or as an anxious person, and I'm sure that you feel the same way knowing how much, you know, we can change within our brains and in our state and our lives. So yeah, I'd love to hear you talk about this idea of like overthinking and the connection to cortisol and stress.

Yeah. So, you know, thoughts can trigger a stress response. We know that because you can think about your emails or the taxman and you're sort of very active. And that is the same for sort of self-negative or self-negative self-referential information about yourself. Overthinking, worrying about stuff, maybe pondering autobiographical memories. You know that feeling where you're like, oh, I can't believe I sent that message a a year ago. That's all very, that's all very common stuff. And, um, that resides in an area called the default mode network. Now the default mode network is a network of brain areas and it's exactly what the name says. It's your default mode of thinking, your idling state. Now what happens in the default mode network is that these thoughts can arise spontaneously, but they have no beginning and end. They're sort of like incohesive. They've run around in your mind. Without beginning and end, if that makes sense. So you ever have that feeling where you try and put into words how you're feeling, but then you either struggle, or you feel better when you've done it, or you realize that you didn't feel like that at all? And that's because when we have to generate words and put a narrative to the story— so you say, I feel like this, and it's because of this, and this is what I want from the outcome— or you talk about it to a friend, it generally puts you in a different state of mind because it's using a smaller part of the brain, which is activating the frontal cortex, snapping you out of that default mode type thinking. Now what's really interesting is that hypnosis has actually shown to increase GABA in the limbic system. Now GABA is an inhibitory neurotransmitter. So with every excitatory, uh, signal— so even me generating these words, there's excitation going because the neurons need to communicate, but there also needs to be inhibitory, uh, information that's stops the thoughts. And otherwise, you know, that's where epilepsy comes in. For example, there's, there's a dysfunction in the GABAergic system because too much excitation leads to a seizure. So, but what's interesting is that self-hypnosis has been shown through research to increase this GABA in the limbic system, predominantly around the insula and the amygdala, which are responsible for detecting fear in your environment. So exacerbating feelings of anxiety and worry. So if that part of the brain is being dampened with communication, it means that there's less fear processing involved. So all of a sudden your thoughts and worries are not as emotionally loaded, if you will, because of that dampening of activity in that area of the brain.

So how do we actually—

how do we—

how, like, how do we do that? How do we— I know you mentioned like walking can help deactivate the amygdala. Are there certain things that we can do to kind of like create that more like calm sort of state of being less activated things?

So one, yes, definitely walking. So walking has been shown to deactivate that amygdala activity when you're in that state of rumination, overthinking, worrying. But you can snap yourself out of it by doing something like the physiological sigh, which is a type of breathing that is also based— is actually on the Reverie app as well. But it's, it's a type of breathing that helps you reset your breathing rate. So have you ever been stressed and you start huffing and puffing and you like, ah, that's actually a good thing. That's your brain trying to reset the breathing mechanism to bring you back down to a parasympathetic state. You can fast-track that by doing the physiological sigh. So what that looks like is a double inhale through the nose, a short inhale, pause at the top, and a long exhale through the mouth. So we'll do two together so that your listeners can hear. So it goes, do one more. That feels really nice. So good. Exactly. What that does is that dampens that kind of stress and the cortisol and the sort of activated hormones that tell you that these thoughts mean a lot to you. So you can do that and then either reframe where you kind of— so let's say you maybe are worried because you're— you've just started a new job and you don't think you're good enough for it. You could reframe that into something like, okay, I'm not good enough right now, but I can be better. I just need to learn. And there'll be an adjustment period where this feels uncomfortable. And that's one way of reframing, because you can't plaster it with toxic positivity and say something like, oh no, you're absolutely fine, don't worry, you'll smash it. You will smash it, but it's not very helpful for us to lie to ourselves. So that's one way to do it. So physiological sigh and then reframe, or physiological sigh and then journal, talk it out loud, put narrative, put a story to it, because that snaps you into that kind of logical thinking that I explained earlier. Then you can also sort of fit stuff around that, so meditating, doing self-hypnosis, making sure that you're going on those walks and dampening that kind of amygdala activity as a whole. Now, engaging in hobbies is also hugely helpful for the brain because when you have a stressful day at work and someone yells at you, for for example, when you leave the office, you're still thinking about that, and the brain doesn't really know the difference between thoughts and reality. And we know that even if it does, thoughts can still exacerbate feelings of stress and worry. Otherwise, we wouldn't have anxious thoughts to begin with, right? So when we engage in hobbies, we're actually completely immersing ourselves in something else. So we're giving in time, we're giving our brain and body the time to recover from that situation. So have you ever gone to like a gym class and then you come out and you're like, okay, Sarah doesn't bother me so much anymore. It's, it's, you know, sucky what happened, but it doesn't impact me as much. And that's because you've allowed that, that stress signal to kind of dampen during the time that you were in the class and think about something else. The hobbies are huge.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. My partner like always says that his form of like mental health is playing soccer, swimming, and working out. Those are his like mental clarity sessions that like get him feeling like really anchored back into his body and just like feeling like things are okay again. In terms of like walking something that I've been doing, and I've encouraged a lot of my clients to do it recently, is I call them like no stimulation walks. So it's that walking with no music, no podcast, no nothing, just like being outside in nature, or just like walking in silence, which is really, really helpful. And then in terms of the breathing, something that I love to do either by myself, but also it's fun if you have like a partner or someone that you need to hug. If you, if you have a hug and you do like a little bit of a longer hug and you take like 3 deep breaths and exhales together, I find that that like regulates me so, so much. Like, if I'm having a stressful experience or we're traveling or something's going wrong or whatever, and I know I need to get like regulated, we'll like hug and I'll be like, I just need a 20-second hug, and then we'll do 3 deep breaths like together. And it's like also the heart coherence of like putting your heart against somebody else's heart, that's like another beautiful, beautiful thing that's like helped me so much.

I love that. I love that because we release oxytocin in social connections, but not any social connections. They have to be very deep and meaningful. And oxytocin, vasopressin both us feel really good. And yes, like you said, that heart coherence, which can help you regulate your central nervous system back down. But there's another layer to that, and that is that there's research to show that we can actually synchronize our brainwaves with other people around us, which is crazy because when we're communicating, like, our brainwaves are probably synchronized right now. And if I was sort of super, super high— I mean, I was doing this podcast once with this girl who was like just so intense and I could feel myself kind of a bit like all over the place because I was matching her energy. And it's not that I'm matching her energy in some like woo woo way. It is that our bodies and brains are actually synchronizing to the frequency which they're at. And I could feel myself calming myself down. And what's interesting is over time she relaxed because I do personally believe that I was forcing that relaxation into the conversation. And we both kind of ended up getting to this like nice, lovely balance where we could have this conversation in a flow because the beginning, when you listen to the podcast, I mean, I won't mention it just because I don't, you know, but if you know, when you hear the podcast, you can hear it's a bit kind of like staccato and a bit kind of jarring in the beginning. And I'm like struggling to find my flow. I'm a bit all over the place and I'm stumbling over my words. And then by the end, we're like coherently having this kind of like back and forth flow.

Yeah. Oh my gosh. Because you had a post that I loved, which I also want to talk about. And this like goes into it so nicely because you mentioned mentioned like how we can match other people's energy subconsciously, like without even trying. And I think the, the post was about like being able to support your partner through a bad mood instead of like matching their energy when they are in a triggered or frustrated or angry or upset state. And whether it's your partner or it's kids, like, oh my God, I can only imagine how important this is for parents. But like Let's talk about exactly what you just said, but a little bit more in depth in terms of like, how do we hold the space and do exactly what you did on that podcast, which is like calming ourselves down, maintaining the energy that we want to hold and offer to the other person? So in the hopes that like they can kind of like meet us there a little bit instead of just feeding into their triggered response, their energy, and then having us both be in chaos.

Yeah. And it's, and it's easy to do that. That's the thing is that if it's not practice, if your partner is triggered, you know, snaps, it's easy to snap back. And then you kind of get this like upward trajectory or downward spiral, whichever way you want to look at it, where you're then sort of, you know, blowing up at each other. And I think that, you know, obviously there's nuance to it. And some people are in the comments saying that they struggle because sometimes they do do that and their partner doesn't listen. But being able to hold space whilst also making sure that it's not impacting acting you, but you know, because you, you can just hold space for someone and kind of calmly breathe. My partner and I are really good at doing that. Like, I had a situation where I lost Max, my puppy, in the mountains. She was stuck in a ravine actually, and I thought she was chasing sheep. I was like, I could hear her in the valley and I thought that she was chasing the sheep, and I was like freaking out because I was like, oh my God, the shepherd's gonna kill her. Like, this is all very stressful. I've never ran so fast in my life. And I found her and it turns out she was just stuck in a ravine and she couldn't get out, but she could hear me shouting, so she was barking because she was panicked at the that she couldn't get to me. And I called him. He's, he's actually away on a retreat, bless him. And he, the whole time I was honestly freaking out and he was just so calm. And I think if he'd started panicking, it probably would have like, you know, gone off into like a tantrum. I probably would have passed out, to be honest. I was just so stressed. And what's interesting is that he was saying, he's like, I was so stressed because obviously he's not there. He's like a 2-hour flight away. There's no way that he could in any way help. But he was like, it took so much for me to just remain calm and like hold that space for you because I could easily have freaked out and then you would have like lost your mind and we would have lost the dog.

Literally, there's nothing more stressful than losing a dog. This has happened to us several times because we have a husky and he loves to hunt. And so if he sees something, he'll just like run off. And depending on where we are, you know, if we're like on a farm, we're in the woods, and then it's just like, oh my gosh, where has he gone? And your mind goes to all the worst-case scenarios. He's gonna get hit by a car, he's gonna get lost, like, we're never gonna see each other again. Like, and yeah, my partner does also a really good job of like being really calm. Like, I gotta give him a lot of credit because I feel like he's almost better at that than I am. I'm like, oh no, I go into like catastrophe. But it's so helpful. It's like what they say, you know, in emergency situations of any kind, like panic only makes things worse for everybody involved. But it is such a practice to try to like maintain that calm.

Yeah. What's really interesting is I'm very calm under other pressures. So I actually got bit by a dog and my ear came off. It was wild.

Yeah, I need to reconsider.

Yeah, it was literally hanging like— yeah, it was. And it split into— it was honestly so awful. My ear's in really good shape now. You can't even see, but I had to get it put back together. And I remember getting up and I was like, is he I ripped my ear off to my partner and he was like, oh, and I looked in the mirror and I freaked. I screamed and I was like, okay. And I literally remember going and I was like, okay, this is what we're going to do. And I just went into like logic mode and I'm really good with stuff like that. Like there was once a woman as well who was like, she was pregnant in the street and she just, I don't know what happened. She collapsed and started like, yeah, just, I think she, I hope she wasn't having a miscarriage, but she was in very severe pain and everyone was kind of panicking. At that and I was like, you call the ambulance, you put something under her head. And I was just like, like logic mode. I think when it comes to the dogs, I'm like, I don't even know what I'm going to be like as a parent because I was just like, you know what it is? I have two dogs and Max is very— she's very scared of the world. Even though she's a German Shepherd Belgian Malinois, she's actually quite sensitive to the world. Whereas if it had been Kobe, my boy, he's so confident and I probably wouldn't have panicked. I'd have been like, he will find me, I will find him. It'll be fine. We will live. But because she she's so sensitive, I feel like I was like, oh my God, if she's lost because she doesn't like people as well. She's very scared of humans. I was terrified that, you know, someone would find her and then try and help her and then she would have bitten them. And it was like, oh my God, I was the whole thing.

Oh my God, I know. So stressful. Wow. But to go back to what you said of like how you just kind of go into that mode in the emergency with the pregnant woman, it's like, that's for me, like, that's leadership. It's like, who do you— what's that saying where it's like the room starts on fire and like like you're trapped in there with a bunch of people. Like, the leader in the room is the person where when they say, do this, do that, you're like, um, you're just following them because of the energy that they carry. So I do think that leadership also has like an energy, it has a frequency, and it very much is being able to regulate, stay calm, you know, find a solution even when things are chaotic. So yeah, but I totally relate with like losing the dogs and stuff like that. I go absolutely ballistic, and my partner's like, it'll be fine, like, he's gonna make a bag.

And I'm like, literally, I love the word. I love the fact that you use the word leadership, because when I coach a client— so I've got this one particular client who has a really terrible relationship with his boss, and just generally in life, he tends to struggle sometimes to— yeah, in relationships. And I always say, like, be the leader. Like, be— lead your boss into where you want him. And, you know, like, he— because his boss also struggles to regulate, so kind of like end up on this upward trajectory of like blowing up at each other. And I was like, why don't you coach him? Obviously in an inadvertent way, like don't sit there and be like, this is what we're going to do. But also in a roundabout way, you are. I was saying, if you can learn to regulate your response, you're going to lead them into a better response that you guys can have an amicable conversation. And that's my example with everything. Like, you know, people that have bad relationships with their parents, I'm like, teach them, lead them, like take them by the hand and show them what it could be like. You know, that's our job, I think, as as humans, when we, when we have information, we should pass it on and lead other people so that they can then pass it on to the person after that, and so on and so on. And hopefully we're all trickling into each other and making each other better. Yeah.

And I think what's, what's challenging about that is people want to— they want to do that, but then the way that they approach it is exactly what you're saying not to do, which is kind of like in that sort of like teachy-preachy way where it can make other people feel like you think that you're superior to them or that you have the answers or that they're immature because you found the way and like they don't know it. And so I always I tell my clients, like, it's, it's about being the lighthouse, which means like you are the shining light of like what is possible. Live your life in the way that you know is healthy and radiant and helps you feel amazing, and other people will see that and feel that. And exactly as you're talking about with space holding, it's like people then kind of like feel that energy and almost like calibrate to it when you carry yourself like that. And you go into conversations, conflict, whatever it is, holding that energy, and you are light house for what's possible, people feel that and they can kind of adapt to it. And sometimes that takes longer, and I think that's what people are frustrated by, is that like it's not going to happen immediately, but it definitely is possible.

Yeah, I love that. I love that a lot.

Thank you so much, Nicole, for this conversation. I have like 5,000 more questions that I could ask you, so I might have to do a part 2 because I love all the neuroscience stuff. You're amazing. Um, let everybody know like where they can find you, your book, the app, like anything you want to shout out. Let our people know where they can get more this like juicy mindset, mental health stuff from you?

So I'm on Instagram as Nicole's Neuroscience, or if you type in Nicole Vignola, it will come up. And of course my book Rewire is out in— well, it's out in the UK already, but it'll be out in June next week. So it's Rewire: Break the Cycle, Alter Your Thoughts, and Create Lasting Change, where I've basically digested all of this information into a book. It's been designed so you can dip in and out of each chapter without having to have read the whole thing. I talk about breakup, negativity bias, you know, reconnecting with yourself, growth mindset. I've got a 7-step process on how to change your habits and behaviors. So it's, it's, yeah, it's a great book, if I do say so myself.

And I'm sure, I'm sure it was a labor of love and such a long process. So we will link everything in the show notes for you guys that you can find Nicole, you can find her book, you can find the app for self-hypnosis and all the things that we talked about today. Thank you so, so much for, you time and your wisdom, and thanks for coming on.

Thank you for having me.