Self Leadership & Pursuing Growth at All Costs w/ Enneagram Expert Tracy O'Malley

What's up guys? Welcome back to the podcast. Oh my God, do we have a good conversation for you guys today. This week on the podcast, I am joined by Tracy O'Malley. She is a highly sought-after performance coach for companies like Google, Amazon, and John Deere. She is a top Enneagram expert who teaches both professionals and individuals how to integrate the Enneagram in every area of life, guiding people to think and perform differently, uncover and change habits that no longer serve them, and shift their relationships both personal and professional. We're going to get into how death, rehab, and divorce landed Tracy in front of a therapist who told her to look into the Enneagram, and what happened after she told said therapist to kindly fuck off. Tracy is a spitfire. She is a fellow no BS bestie, and that's why I know that you're going to love her. We also weirdly discovered that we both have the same exact Human Design type. We're manifesting generators with a 5/1 profile, so We really got along. In this candid, real as fuck chat, we are gonna talk about the non-sexy side of choosing to evolve and why choosing growth can sometimes mean letting things blow up and accepting that they will never be the same. What do you do when growing means losing people or being misunderstood or getting exiled from the friend group or losing your status as the life of the party? Why all leadership in business and beyond begins with self-leadership and what that truly means. How the Enneagram can help you find more self-compassion and help heal your inner judger who's not only judging yourself, but also others and the way that they choose to see things or approach life. Man, is this a juicy conversation? Tracy's kids are close in age with me and she's such an OG in the personal development space. She has seen it all and been in lots of really expansive rooms. We have so much to learn from her. I know you can't wait, so let's dive in. Welcome to the Makeshift Happen podcast. I'm your host, Samantha Daly, entrepreneur, life coach, and your no BS bestie, here to bring you all things mindset, manifestation, and personal development. This podcast is designed to help you expand your mind and uplevel your life. So turn the volume up and roll the windows down if you're coming along for the ride. Let's go make shit happen. I was just saying to you, uh, before we started recording that I heard you years and years ago on the Angie Lee Show, and that's how I kind of first came across your work and everything that you do with the Enneagram. And I've followed you ever since. So I'm really excited to have you on the show and really dig deeper into your journey, your path, the work that you do, and share that with our audience today. So welcome to Makeshift Happen. We're so excited to have you.

I'm honored to be here, and let's make some shift happen. I'm excited about that. It's like my love language is like transformation and moving through and making sense and making magic out of all the mess and shit that's been been part of our lives. So like, let's go.

Yes, yes. Let's make shift happen. So speaking of the mess and the shit in our lives and making something out of it, you have a really interesting story and you were at one of those really pivotal moments in your journey, a rock bottom per se, when you actually discovered the Enneagram. So can you take us just for some more like kind of background and context? Can you take us back to that time in your life, what was going on and what things kind of looked like at that point?

You know, I'm never somebody that believes everything happens for a reason because there's some heinous crap that happens that really it's hard to wrap your heart, your brain, your soul around that, even with as much wisdom as I have. However, I am a firm believer that you can make something beautiful out of anything that does happen. And that kind of was where I was about 12 years ago. I had just turned 40 years old, so you can do the math there. You know, on paper, things look good. I had a successful career, I had beautiful teenagers, I was a single parent, the sole provider as well. But in the summer of 2012, I had this epiphany, I had this spiritual awakening that I knew I was meant for way more. But based on what I was taught, told, and modeled and kind of my life circumstance, I felt kind of trapped by it. I didn't have anybody blazing that trail for me, the trail that I knew I needed to go down. And then in that summer, my dad was diagnosed with cancer and he had a 12-day cancer diagnosis. He literally went from diagnosis to death in 12 days and that put things in perspective real freaking quick. Like it was almost like a 2x4 upside the head. And I had also kind of reconciled that some of my coping mechanisms weren't great as well. Even though I was very high-functioning and high-performing, I knew that like if I didn't repair some of this stuff, it was gonna be repeated or, you know, my generations that were following me were gonna repeat it. And so after my dad died, I felt like I was white-knuckling it. And knew that I was starting to witness some things in my own kids start to get repeated, and I didn't want that. And so I made the decision to check myself into rehab for not just an alcohol coping dysfunction, quite honestly, but also anything but drugs I have used to cope— food, anger, codependency, um, shopping, you, you name it, I have used it to try to either feel or numb. And I knew that I needed to learn emotional regulation and emotional sobriety, and all of this other stuff was just symptoms of that. And so when I checked myself into rehab voluntarily, most of the people in my life were like, "Why are you doing that? Like, you're actually all right. You're better than all of us," which was like the first aha moment. Like, put yourself in rooms and around people that are upleveling you and not saying, "You're great. You're better than all of us." Like, you don't want that. And it was in day 2, I walked into rehab and recognized I was a little bit different than most of the people there. Not better, not, not anything like that, but just different. Like, I was ready. I was really ready to get new tools in the toolbox so that I could step into what I was here to do. Because sometimes you got to be called out to be called up, and I knew that that's where I was. And so on day 2 with my therapist, who I still see to this day, she wanted me to do this Enneagram thing. And I very respectfully told her to go fuck herself. I did not want to do that. I was like, I don't need another label, lady. I'm literally checking in here with tons of them. I don't need another one to make this more hard. I need you to help me fix my life, basically. And she is tough and she's from Texas and she's also an Enneagram 8 like me. And she's like, my dear, 'Your best thinking has gotten you here, and this might actually help you get out of the box that not only you have put yourself in, but the world has also put you in.' And I grew up in an alcoholic home, and, you know, had a mom that was very emotionally, um, abandoning, you know, not maliciously, but just she couldn't deal with it. And so I, I took that as an opportunity, even though I was really mad at my therapist and not excited about where I was, and this was a very humbling moment. I do believe that when the student is ready, the teachers and tools appear, and this was an opportunity for me to change the entire trajectory of not just my life, but the generations that were gonna follow for me. And so that's kind of where my journey with the Enneagram started, um, 12 years ago. And I had a lot of aha moments, um, you know, when you're sitting there in a room, very humbled by yourself with nothing but, you know, a playlist and a journal and some things, it really allows you to tap into who you are and who you are designed to be and where you have kind of blocked that and sabotaged that along the way because of circumstance and because of your own fears. And so I started to dive, dive into it, and it was the first time in my life I felt compassion for myself. Like instead of shame and anger and judgment, I was like, wow, I came by a lot of this innocently. And although I have, it is my responsibility to put new tools in my toolbox that I can change this moving forward and not use it as a crutch or to hold myself back, but to leverage this to step into who I was always designed to be and make the impact in this lifetime and in my own home. The way that I was always designed to be. So that's kind of where it all started. A long time. It seems like a lifetime ago.

I love that you said it's the first time that you felt compassion for yourself, because I think that's what a lot of people feel when they start to do some form of inner work or therapy or whatever that aha moment is for themselves. When you can see that there's some sort of reasoning, some sort of pattern, some sort of mechanism, some sort of design that is behind the way that you've kind of been operating and moving through life, it does, it creates this sense of compassion of, oh my gosh, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm not broken. There's nothing wrong with me. I just have to learn how to work with myself better and use this tool to help me be able to create new coping strategies and learn new patterns and ways of, of being in the world. So I love that so much. I'm curious to know, how did you know that it was time to do something as radical as check yourself into rehab? Because it sounds like you didn't fully identify with being an alcoholic and there was like other things in the mix. But a lot of people probably wouldn't be brave enough, courageous enough, honest enough to take such a big step. So I'm just curious if there was something that happened in your life or in your mind that led you to believe that that was the best choice and the way forward?

I love this question, and thank you for asking it, because, you know, I've done 12-step program. I've been in the rooms of AA, Al-Anon, ACA, all of it. And they're so helpful, seriously. And I also knew, like, I didn't have a chemical problem. I had a coping problem. I really, really did. And what my breaking point was in losing my dad, it kind of put things in perspective, but also like history started rolling back. You know, when you're mourning somebody and you're giving a eulogy on somebody who has been probably the most influential person in your life in a positive way, but also the dysfunction, you start to turn around and look at who's following you. And I had a 14 and 15-year-old at the time, and I started to see the same look in their faces that I had growing up. And although that built tenacity and resourcefulness and, and resilience and a work ethic, all of those things which are really great, I also knew like where I was internally and I could feel energetically that coming from my kids. And they're gonna do what I do, not what I say to do. And I needed to be in integrity. And because I didn't know a different way, I needed to go find one. And like I said, I was very different than most people. I wasn't like physically addicted to alcohol, and that can be a very real thing. It doesn't mean I'm ever going to dabble in it again because it serves zero good for my life. But I needed to kind of show my kids, you know, it's one thing to know the way, then you have to go the way, and that's how you show the way. Right? John Maxwell, I think, is the one who kind of brought that no-go and show. And that's how we walk in integrity in everything we do. Like, I can see people who talk a real good fucking game, especially in this space of personal development, but I am the person that sees a lot of the stuff behind the curtain to know that, like, if I want to be and have compassion for myself and be able to facilitate transformation, not just in my own home but out in the world, I better be damned to be walking my own Talk. And to be able to put my head down on the pillow every night without shame, without judgment, without all the shit that I had been beating myself over the head with, that was why it was so radical for me. I'm kind of an extremist. When I make my decision, I'm pretty much bulletproof and unstoppable. But sometimes it takes me a hell of a lot of whippings upside the head in order to get there. And so to the outside world, it can look really like, holy shit, courageous. And extreme, and it is. I'm not minimizing the courage it took to do that. And, and honestly, at the same time, I walked away from a successful career and wiped out my entire social network at the same time. Like, I didn't just check into rehab, I wiped out everyone but my two kids financially, emotionally, support, friends, everything. Everything went but me, my faith, and my kids. And I started over. And it— best decision I've ever made and the scariest thing I've ever done.

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I hate when that happens.

I hate when that happens. It just happened, right? And so then when I came back and I finished my last year college. And when I graduated, I decided like, I'm gonna decline these job offers. I'm not moving to Chicago. I'm just gonna go back to Spain. I have to see where this goes. I have to follow my heart. And so I knew that I was gonna make no money and it wasn't gonna make sense for my career and people weren't gonna get it. And my parents were obviously concerned cuz they had just helped me, you know, pay the way through college and get a really great degree from an awesome school. And I was just like, let's set it all on fire and see what happens.

Won't that be fun and burn it all down. Let's go!

Yeah, burn it all down, right? And so like, your story kind of reminds me of that. Obviously they're wildly different, but it's still a pivotal moment in someone's journey where they're willing to step outside of the comfort zone of the expectations of everybody else in their life, or what other people think is good enough. You know, you mentioned people being like, oh, you, you don't have a problem, like you're fine when it comes to alcohol or partying or coping or whatever it was. And it's like, yeah, fine for maybe your standards, but when you raise your standards of, of how you want to live and how you want to be, that sometimes can put you in a different category and it strips things out of your life. As you're talking about, you got rid of everything except for your faith and your two kids. So I'd love for us to kind of speak to those moments in life and what got you through Knowing that that was going to be enough and not, not being influenced or concerned by losing everything or what other people were going to say and just really knowing like, this is, this is what I need to do. And, and staying firm in that, in that decision and trusting the path.

So like, it's easy to say, don't give a shit about what other people think and all of that. And I am tough as nails and all the things. And for the most part, I really don't. And it's really painful when you do honor the intuition and that divine knowing and take a path that most of the people in your life won't understand, will judge, will criticize. You know, I had to make a decision is, you know, we don't get our goals, we get our standards, right? And we make these vision boards and say we want all this, but if your standards aren't leveled up, you're never gonna get your goal. You're gonna only get your standard. So you have to raise your standards in order to have alignment in what you say you want. And that comes with fucking disruption. And that is painful for everyone involved, um, for a few reasons. Like, I disrupted my life completely, and not just my life. Like, my two kids were equally disrupted by this. Temporarily. Temporarily. And I think this is the big asterisk that you have to ask yourself if you're listening right now. If you want what you say you want, are you okay with whatever temporary disruption will absolutely fucking come with that? And if you're not, you're not ready for what you're saying you want. And that's okay. That's okay. There have been many times in my life that I said I wanted certain things, but I wasn't okay with the consequence or the disruption that it would bring to the table. Sometimes there has to be a perfect storm in your life, and losing my dad and going through a divorce and facing a recession and all the things that I did back then, like, I was like, well, if that's the worst that's gonna happen, like, it can only get better. Even through losing everything in my entire identity, and I was okay with that. So my standards went up, and guess what? The goals that I really desired happened. But that comes with a fallout. And here's the other thing with abundance and manifestation and all those things, and I do believe in like we can manifest that, but again, your standards have to go up for you to be able to manifest all the shit you want. Like it doesn't just say like, hey, I want this, and then, you know, business as usual over here, you know. And as my standards went up, the abundance rolled in. And what I usually will tell people, you know, for you to have an abundant life, you have to make room for it.. And it's not like— I liken this to like, if you're the type of person that hangs on to a really shitty relationship until a better one comes along, like a high-caliber, high-quality, abundant relationship, wealth, health, whatever abundance means to you, doesn't wait in line. Like high-caliber shit does not wait in line for you to clear the clutter. You have to clear the clutter and then faithfully take that walk knowing that because you've told God, the universe, whatever you believe in, that you are here for it, your standards are high, that you are willing to wait as long as it takes because you have made the fucking room for it. And I did that when I cleared the path of my own compensatory strategies, the dysfunctional relationships, a boyfriend that was not good for me, my family judgment. My whole family has disowned me pretty much at this point. When I cleared the path for that, I was so abundantly blessed in my health, in my wealth, in my relationships, in my support, and in the relationship I have with myself, my faith, and my children. I would say that that was worth every ounce of disruption that has happened in my life, and it has been so painful at the same time. Like, you have to be able to hold both at the same time. And that's really challenging. And that's why, like, tools that I've put in the toolbox over the last 23 years, but really seriously the last 12, have been so important because life is going to life you in the face. You can't avoid it. I don't care how woke and self-aware and how aligned as fuck you are, life will come and say, "All right, girl, are you ready to uplevel again? Because buckle up." Here we go. Here we go.

Yeah, yeah, I know. It's like, why?

Why does it always have to be like this?

Sometimes I'm like, no more lessons, please.

I don't need— well, here's the beauty of being 50 years old is, you know, I have enough evidence in my bank to see that every time this happens, what's on the other side of it is so goddamn beautiful and amazing. That I just buckle up the seatbelt a little bit tighter and I know it's gonna be a bumpy ride and I'm okay with that. I don't enjoy the process. I don't. I really, really don't. And I try to bypass it sometimes, you know. And if there was a workaround, I promise you I would tell you all. I wouldn't gatekeep it. But there is no way around it. There's only one way and that's through it and surrendering and surrounding yourself with the right people, places, and things and tools and mentors and things like that so that when it does happen, You aren't alone in it because we aren't meant to do this alone, even though I have spent most of my life being that black sheep and lone wolf in that. But we're not meant to do it that way. We really, really aren't.

Yeah. And I think like a lot of times if you are in a place in your life where you're feeling like that disruption is coming and needs to happen in order to clear the path and pave the way, you're probably on the precipice of getting closer to finding the people that you are supposed to be surrounded by or do life with, right? Like, I think when you are feeling super alone or like no one understands and no one gets it, that probably means that you've gotta go through one of those disruption periods, one of those, you know, peeling away, clearing the path moments. And then that, you know, new tribe is kind of there for you if you'd take the first step. The next one appears and you take the next step, the one after that will appear. And eventually you kind of find yourself surrounded by the people that you are meant to do life with, at least in, in that season. What I'm really curious about is this idea, this concept of like identity, because especially in personal development work, we know that identity work is so important and who you believe yourself to be and what you believe that you're capable of. And all of that really influences the actions that we take, the directions that we move in, the opportunities that we seize or let pass, what we achieve or what we don't. And it seems like you and all of us do this at certain seasons of our life, but like you absolutely had to reconstruct a new identity for yourself once you went through that, you know, coming out of rehab and doing all that inner work on yourself and going back home to your kids and it was like this fresh start. Like, how did you reconstruct your identity of who you were? And did the Enneagram play some sort of pivotal role in that? I mean, obviously that must have shifted something intensely for you because it became part of your work. Hey, don't forget that every month we are picking a Listener of the Month to win $50 in cash just for showing love to the show. All you have to do is leave an epic review of the podcast on Apple Podcasts, screenshot the review before you hit submit, and DM that screenshot to us on Instagram at Makeshift Happen Podcast. And that's it. I want to thank you for being such a loyal listener and show my appreciation by putting a little extra cash in your pocket. I know it's super easy not to do it, but every single rating and review seriously helps the show rank higher and reach new people., so we appreciate them more than you know. We'll announce the next winner at the end of the month and slide into your DMs if it's you. So keep an eye out and good luck. Love you guys. And thanks for supporting Makeshift Happen.

Yeah, I wouldn't say like, this is the beautiful part about this work is, and, and this was the other thing aside from compassion, you know, when I was in rehab learning about it and it was the first time I had compassion for myself, the other thing that happened was I got full-blown permission to be who I was always designed to be before life kind of kicked me in the teeth. So I wouldn't say I reconstructed my identity, and that's the good news for all of you, is you don't have to reconstruct your identity necessarily. However, you have to maybe change how that gets expressed, right? I think, and this is the gift of the Enneagram, is we, we have this unique soul blueprint that we are born with. I believe that. And then we're dropped into situations, families, circumstances, traumas, whatever that looks like for you. And the expression of that soul blueprint changes based on those circumstances. A lot of time we do it for survival, significance, certainty, independence, autonomy, control, whatever that looks like. And so the Enneagram kind of gave me this roadmap back to who I was and full-blown fucking permission to be that and to have this full understanding of what motivates me and what my biggest fears were. Now, it wasn't permission to say, "This is just who I am, deal with it," which is kind of what I did most of my life. I was like, "I'm an Aries. I'm, you know, an Irish girl. Like, go fuck yourself. This is who I am. And I'm an Enneagram 8, and so that kind of tracks, right?" Like, all of that kind of tracks. And all of that is still very true. However, I am very responsible for the come from and the expression of that. In a way that is not only compassionate, respectful towards, and honoring for myself. But if I truly want to do what's for the greatest good of this lifetime and my impact here, I might have to alter the expression of who I am, not who I am, but the expression of it in a way so that what is so beautifully intended on my heart and in the work that I'm called to do in this lifetime, so that it can be received for other people, right? Because what happened most of my life is I was, I was very unique and I was, you know, I know who I was, but the expression of it was clouded by like the judgment, the lack, the scarcity, the fear of abandonment, the fear of betrayal, things like that. And so a lot of this armor started popping up to shield the true identity, which is a very sensitive, vulnerable, a compassionate, protective person. And as I kind of understood that and recognized through the framework of the Enneagram, because we're more than our type, but we have this growth number that we're always kind of striving for. When I was learning about this sitting in rehab, I was like, "Wow, I've been sabotaging and judging my own growth all this time." So whenever I was on the verge of it, it was like, "Nope, nope, nope, turn back around," and do what we do to survive rather than thrive. And the gift of the Enneagram for me in my life is to know that this is my place in this lifetime, and it comes with some things that are challenging from time to time. But you can't have the rewards without the risks that come with, with things. And through the framework of the Enneagram, I have learned how to express myself in a way that people that aren't like me can receive me. And that The first place I tested that was in my own home, right? I have an Enneagram 2 empath, highly sensitive son, and I have this free-spirited, like enthusiastic visionary kind of daughter who are both very different from each other and me. And so I started testing kind of my own, like, I'm going to be who I am. I'm not going to try to make them who I am, but how can I express who I am to my kids in a way that they feel seen, heard, understood, valued, and respected and honored for who they are at the same time? I'm not self-abandoning myself. Mm-hmm. And it worked. And it worked beautifully. And that's when I fell, really fell in love with the Enneagram and, and understanding this. I don't have to reconstruct necessarily my, my identity. I just have to honor it and leverage it and work with it in a way that is honorable to me and to the greatest good.

Mm-hmm.

So that's how I would answer that question, honestly.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. When we, when we look at that through like a tactical or like kind of like tangible lens, is there anything that you can remember actually changing? Or obviously, I mean, you've worked with so many clients and companies and all these things at this point. What are some of the things if someone is trying to express their identity, their like divine design in a healthier way that so that they can improve their relationships, they can improve their relationship with themselves, and they can experience all of that growth. Obviously, it's going to be different, I think, for every personality type and, you know, what coping mechanisms you're used to in that. But is there anything that kind of comes to mind that has been really helpful for you or some of your clients when it comes to actually starting to change the expression of the, the personality type?

Well, the biggest aha and humbling moment for me, especially when I was sitting in rehab and figuring out that I'm raising an Enneagram 2 and an Enneagram 7 and I'm an Enneagram 8, was how unintentionally I was clipping their wings and chipping away at their confidence without any desire to do that, right? And, you know, a lot of times, especially if we do like the inner work and stuff, you know, we have to go back to our childhood. And, and yes, our parents did do the best they could, absolutely, unless they're sociopaths or something. Like, most parents don't, like, go into this saying, "You know what? I want to fuck up my kids." Like, no. And we still have a responsibility as parents to do better, right? And when I was recognizing that, like, wow, I am chipping away at their spirit, their confidence, I didn't want that. I didn't want that. And so the biggest kind of thing for me is recognizing that they have different perspectives and different fears. So that kind of allows me to pause rather than to be so reactionary. So like, pause is like everyone's best friend. Everyone, especially a reactionary type like an Enneagram 8. And number 2 was recognizing there's 8 other different perspectives in which people see the world, and they're equally as valuable, and I have a lot to fucking learn from them. And so, especially when I would get irritated or triggered even, instead of judging or trying to control or whatever that looked like in the past, I paused. I'm like, what do I have to learn from this person right now? Whether it was my own child or, you know, somebody that I absolutely activate, you know, I activate a lot of people, right? And they usually will project onto me and that's totally okay. And instead of like sparring with them, I'm like, "Okay, I have something to learn from them as well. And if I am in this pause, they will also, if they're open to it, learn from me." And that is what we're all here in this human experience to do. Like, it is a spiritual journey that we are all here to learn from each other. And the way that I teach and communicate and help others integrate this is through that lens. It's like, I'm not saying you're not going to be triggered. I'm not saying you're not going to be annoyed, but you can really learn and become a more well-rounded human, and your relationships that you desire for your life will not only improve, you'll have all the right ones. You'll have— because honestly, like, most of my life I had a lot of people in my life that I could either control or were like me. And although, like, my ego kind of liked that, it was not a very fulfilling life. Yeah, it wasn't. And I wasn't thriving. Yeah. And so the, the, the beauty in this and using this tool is, okay, I have a lot to learn from other people, and like, how can I communicate in a way that they are also open to learning from me?

Yeah. Oh, that was so good. Like, that you were surrounded by people that you could either control or they were like you. I think so many people, probably if they take a look at their circles, they realize like, yeah, you, you've kind of like, you know, subconsciously created that for yourself because it's comfortable, because it's easy, because you don't have to get challenged, because you don't have to, you know, move through triggers. It's like, oh, all these people either yes me and agree with me, or I know how to, you know, pull the strings to like make them act how I want them to act so that there's no problem.

Problems, which again, just like you said, like, that's a boring temporary good thing, but it creates long-term problems and long-term, like, energetic bankruptcy for sure.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I feel like what you're speaking to here especially is this sort of heightened level of emotional intelligence that we can cultivate by understanding the different types and what their core desires and fears are and the lens through which they're seeing the world and, and all of that. It's almost like you become more emotionally mature because it's not just your one lens that you're looking through anymore. You have all these other perspectives that you could potentially see and be able to look at things from.

Yeah, I still have my home base. Like, that's the cool part about that, is knowing that my perspective and my core fears and my core motive isn't going to really change. However, it's, it's kind of like when you know, having that main character energy, like, that is my main character energy, that doesn't change. However, if you think about some of your favorite movies, they have the best freaking supporting cast, right? And they are people that are different than them. And the framework of the Enneagram provides you with your own supporting cast, whether in human forms or within your own framework. And it's been really, really fun. To have, you know, very polarizing people around me. Like, the cool thing about polarization is like you can be an amazing team, whether it's like your, your support system, you know, your business, your, your home team, whatever. Like, my home team is very diverse, right? With that comes like we're all very skilled and strong in different areas. And when we're not okay, That same polarization can be explosive and destructive, which is where we were, you know, 12 years ago within my home team. And, and, but I would much rather have a very strong, diverse team around me in friendships and professionally so that I can be who I am without having to maybe pull some of these other levers that I can do, but they're harder for me. It's so cool. Oh my God, it's so cool. And, and like, some of my closest friends are very, very different than me. And I still don't understand sometimes how they function. I really, really don't. And I know like they bring something to the table for me that I absolutely continuously need to not only learn, but also it helps me heal. And, you know, in a romantic partnership. When I look back at my failed marriage and some of my failed relationships and friendships before, it's— I can see why they went sideways, not only from their perspective but also mine. And now, like, in my partnerships and friendships now, they are so thriving because of not just my understanding of this but helping them understand this too. And being able to speak to it rather than just kind of make assumptions based on behaviors, right? And giving them that kind of language as well. And it really cuts through a lot of the fluffy shit and the guesswork in interpersonal relationships so that we can do what we're here to do with each other. And that's love and thrive and make a difference here.

So you mentioned business and having kind of like a diverse team and, you know, whether that's within your own kind of framework or also with the people around you. And I know that you work with businesses and companies and probably clients that are entrepreneurs. And I know that a large part of my audience, they're going to be interested in that. So I'm curious from your perspective, like, how, how have you seen the Enneagram and understanding that being able to support entrepreneurs, business, productivity, those kinds of things?

Oh my gosh, it is like, as long as the leader is open to it, because a lot of times, you know, a CEO or, you know, the, the founder or an entrepreneur come to me is like, I'm having problems with my team, can you help fix it? I'm like, well, first of all, there's nothing to fix, and you have to be willing to be transparent and vulnerable too, because leaders go first. And if you're not willing to do that, all this information will actually put more of a spotlight that you're out of integrity. So if you're okay with that, like, we can move forward. Yeah. Most of them are like, you know, I will be transparent and vulnerable. And I usually tell them the more transparent and vulnerable you are with your people that you are leading and even those that you love, the more that credibility and trust is built. Yeah. I'm not saying it's not uncomfortable or that it doesn't come with certain risks. For sure it does. However, when whoever is leading the pack can do that, it gives permission for the others to do the same. Yes. And the more that we can do that, the more we can really get down to business, increase productivity, reduce turnover, conflict resolution goes way down. You build a culture that is bulletproof, which that is king. Culture is everything. And when leaders are like— and I speak it straight, like that's my gift, but I know how to speak it in a way that they can receive it now instead of just like saying, "Fuckin' get your shit together." I'm like, "Listen, like this is how you got to do it. I got you, but you got to do it." And so by the time I come in, you know, the leader is completely cracked open and everybody starts to see each other. And I even bring up like you— you're probably sitting next to somebody who really pisses you off behaviorally, or they trigger you, or you judge them. And you come by that innocently, and probably some of the behaviors are rightfully so. I want you to understand the why behind what you're seeing. And when you understand the why behind it, you will recognize that it isn't as personal as sometimes it feels. We take a lot of shit personal in this life, whether it's professionally or personally. And most of the time, It isn't. And this is where compassion comes into the workplace. And when compassion comes into the workplace and we see each other for who we are as humans, not like, ooh, they're out to get me, or we're competitive and all these things, and I have to like win in order to be worthy. And like we start stripping the masks and the armor, we realize like, oh, this guy over here actually has strengths that I don't need to do. That's why he's good at that and that's why he sucks at the other thing. This is why this person's good at this and they suck at that. And it's all okay. But I think the biggest thing is recognizing that the things that we take personally usually aren't. It doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. It doesn't mean that projection isn't real because it is. But we can start to say, okay, whoa, whoa, whoa, what's my part in this? And how can I help empower them rather than create more conflict? And more distance. Because when we have intimacy in all things, not just like in our homes and in our bedrooms, but intimacy into me, you see, we let others have a peek into who we are. We can move the ship forward a lot faster and more aligned rather than, you know, hitting all these roadblocks and, and glaciers and whatever is in our path. Like we can ride the wave. Rather than trying to avoid them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Again, like, trying, trying to— instead of trying to always go around and avoid all the pain and all the conflict, like, really being able to go through and ride that way. How much—

think about how much energy we waste trying to figure shit out or trying to resolve conflict. And conflict is one of the greatest catalysts for change. I'm not saying this eliminates conflict, but it's healthy conflict. Right. The conflict that you'll now be dealing with and managing is to create change, not to reduce damage control. Yeah. Right. And especially as a leader, you know, you want to maintain that energetic, you know, place that you have to keep in order to run a successful business. Like, you can't be dealing with this crap that drains it. And this tool, especially when you and everyone are on board, can understand this, like energy goes way up. Up all across the board, and then you can be in your zone. Like, how cool is that? Like, the shitty parts of entrepreneurship is people management and energetic management and, and all of that. Like, eliminate it.

Yeah, entrepreneurship, I always say, is such a spiritual journey. I feel like it's one of those things— it's, it's just like relationships. It's like a huge fucking mirror all the time of like, oh, here's where you need to do work, here's where you're falling short, here's Here's where you're triggered. Here's where your beliefs are getting in the way.

It's a tool for growth. And all of it's really important. And when we can meet ourselves with compassion, like shame, judgment, criticism will keep the cycle going. Compassion, empathy, grace, and compassionate action change the game. But if we are meeting ourselves in that mirror with judgment, criticism, and shame, you're basically raising your head your hand and saying, "I want this cycle to continue." And would you agree that if you're meeting yourself with judgment and criticism and shame, that you're likely—

that's how you're approaching situations with other people? I feel that a lot of times the people that are the most judgmental of others is because they're really hard on themselves.

Yeah, because you can't give what you're not giving yourself. So even if you're, you know, masking your judgment of other people in kind words, the energy does not have a poker face. And you can't give what you're not giving yourself. And the most important person you'll ever lead is yourself. And if you're doing it with judgment and criticism, even if through the— all the right strategies and all the right words, your energy enters the room long before you do. And really good people, the people that you want to do what you're here to do in this world, will feel that. And that's why they will leave you. They won't leave you because of a strategy. They won't leave you, but that energy doesn't lie. So the more that you can meet yourself with those things, it doesn't mean you're not going to make mistakes. You're human. And I don't care how self-aware you become, like you're still freaking human. And it's where we learn the most and where we have the biggest breakthroughs is through our mistakes. So why the fuck judge them? Why? That was, that's probably my life's biggest lesson. It's like, wow, those, those mistakes actually have made me the amazing person, leader, mother, friend, partner that I am today. Now, I humbly am working hard to not repeat the ones, especially the ones that hurt other people, whether unintentionally or not. You know, I take accountability and responsibility, but with compassion.

Yeah, I'm so intrigued by the way that this this— you mentioned culture, and it's something that I'm currently kind of like fascinated by. I'm reading this book called The Culture Code, and, um, yeah, I love this idea of like company cultures and like what creates these successful— it's just fascinating about these little tweaks and things that can create such a symbiotic relationship between people and really allow a group to flourish versus fail. And you know, that can— there can be a culture in your family, there can be a culture your company, all, all these different areas of life. And that's just something that kind of is, is intriguing to me now. And so I love— yeah, I, I'm so interested in like when you go into a company, let's say, because I know you've worked with like big companies like Google, Amazon, you go in as this performance coach and the first thing is getting the leader on board, right? Like making sure that they're willing to participate because everything starts with And I totally agree with that. Whenever I teach on leadership, it's like, first of all, before we talk about leading anybody else, we need to talk about leading yourself. Like, are we— are— do we have self-leadership on lock? So I love that you mentioned that as well. But I'm just curious, like, what, what do you find ends up being the most impactful for those groups or those employees in those corporate spaces? Or in— even if it's like small entrepreneurial groups, like, what is the thing maybe that they walk away being the most surprised by? Or that they, they tell you like, wow, this really helped us because of whatever, like from their perspective.

Yeah.

What do they feel like was so impactful about the work that you do with them?

Well, the thing that they understand is like you can have all the right strategies in, in the world in place. You could have Tony fucking Robbins come into your workplace and give you all the strategies in the world. But if you don't have the right culture, you're fucking dead. And I think more than ever companies are seeing, first of all, we have to do a lot with a lot less, a lot more with a lot less people. And so people are really, and businesses are understanding that culture is king. I mean, you can be canceled in a minute and a lot of that has to do with the culture that you have built, right? So people are like hyper-aware, like, oh shit, we need a good culture, home team, professional team, all across the board, like you said. And the thing that I think people are walking away with is the culture doesn't change just because you decide it is going to. Again, it goes back to what I said, like you have to walk that talk. And the culture changes when you treat people as valuable, like that they make a difference with their unique gifts. And when they really, really feel like you get that and you speak to that and your actions back that up, that's when your culture becomes bulletproof and that's when your people stay and that's when your culture is amazing. Every fucking time. I don't care what happens in the world. Like, culture doesn't change the game. It is the game. It is. And so understanding your people— when you understand people, you understand everything. And that's at a human level. Like, strategy, bottom lines, P&L, all of that. Yes, I understand. I'm a strategist. I'm a business person. Like, I get all that. All your energy needs to go into you understanding your people, all that other stuff will fall into place. Because once they feel like you respect and, and know that they're here to make a difference, they are open to all the strategies, all the, the, the boundaries, the guidelines that you're gonna try to put into place. But without that, you gotta team run and rogue.

Mm-hmm.

So that's the biggest thing I would say is people understanding, like, we don't just decide we want a good culture, we have to embody it. And a lot of people unfortunately don't know how to do that because they complicate it with strategy. Like, let's get to the heart of matters and understand we are all humans, and let's understand how each of us understand and see the world. And when we do that, the rest is gravy.

So they're trying to kind of accomplish— they're trying to like check the box for culture by being like, oh well, we do these things and we have these events and we do these meetings and we do these—

celebrate everybody's birthday with a cake. Yeah, yeah, seriously. No, it's not a box you check. It is a constant everyday It's just like any relationship. Like, you have to put in the reps, you have to be unconditionally committed, and you have to be consistent. Period. End of story. You can't have a company party or give everybody gift cards or like, you have to know what motivates your people. When I was part of a— I built this really strong sales organization. I did it really quickly. And the company that I was partnered with, they were like, oh my gosh. And they started dangling carrots because they wanted me to do more of that.

That.

But they didn't take the time to understand how I'm motivated, and they were dangling the wrong carrot in such a way that it turned me off. I was like, dude, if you just took the time to understand why I'm doing this and dangle the right carrot, guess what? You get a fuck ton more out of me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But take time to know your people. You'll know what carrots to dangle that not only get you the bottom line that you want but also helps them build their confidence Why wouldn't you take the time to do that? It does take more time on the front end. It does. It takes a lot more time on the front end, but it creates like this momentum of a freight train that is almost impossible to stop.

Yeah, no, that visual of like dangling the wrong carrot really like clicked for me in terms of when you're building teams or trying to work in groups, like understanding what motivates people and kind of going back to what we talked about earlier. Like understanding the core, like, drivers or desires and the core fears. Like, that was a huge thing for me when I first discovered the Enneagram. I feel like that was the most, like, helpful detail of my personality type that I could initially, like, lean into, and, and that allowed me to have that self-compassion. And also seeing all the other ones to help me understand what other people are seeking and avoiding, and that, that's how they kind of, like, live their lives. I love that piece of, of the Enneagram. Is there anything else about it in particular about that personality test that you recommend? Like if someone's, you know, starting out and they're like, I really want to just— what's one detail that I can like lean into? Do you think it's the growth number or what is one thing that people can maybe start with?

Well, the first thing you need to understand is all the online assessments are inaccurate 65 to 70% of the time. So like, that's the part about the Enneagram that is kind of like, eh, but we are complex beings and I love human design too, like love it. But this is more than just plugging in, you know, your time of birth, the place you're born and all of that. Um, this is like nature and nurture colliding. So we do have some components and self-expression that kind of, you know, alter And especially if you go into these assessments or somebody's giving you this assessment, like my therapist gave it to me and mine was inaccurate at first as well, right? Because I knew like she was going to be like analyzing me based on this. So my answers absolutely were more about my behaviors, not necessarily my motives, right? So first and foremost, know that 65 to 70% of the time those online assessments are wrong. I do have one that is over 95% and you can get with SAM on how to get access to that with a discount, we'll definitely do that for you. So if you really want the accurate information and want to like have the fast pass to having the right information, highly recommend doing that. I'm somebody that likes to do that. I don't like to go to Disneyland more than once. Give me the fast pass. Let me get through to the front of the line for everything so I can be done with it and know that I'm not going to be missing anything. That's kind of like my assessment for that. But if you're going to kind of go the slow way with it, totally okay. Totally, totally okay. But if you're gonna use the rest of the framework, you kind of have to have the right information. But if you do take an online test, what I'll usually say is whatever the top 4 are, I want you to look at the top one. Probably will pop out how you show up behaviorally. And usually our behaviors are masking that core fear. They're there to protect our core fear. So a lot of my performative, competitive Things were to protect my core fear of being betrayed, violated, or put in a vulnerable situation as an Enneagram 8. So if I'm just winning all the time, nobody can hurt me. But for a 3, winning all the time is like their worth, right? Big difference in motivation, right? So understanding, okay, take the top 4 and really look at the motives of each of those Enneagram types. And don't pick the one that you think sounds the best because that's not gonna help you. In this Enneagram journey. It really, really is. I did not want to be an Enneagram 8, trust me. I saw things like, you're an asshole, and all the things, and I'm like, yes, that's true. And I really don't want to say that, but that's true, right? Like, usually the one that triggers you the most out of those 4 is most likely you're getting closer. So look at the motive, not the behaviors, not the stereotypes. Please don't go look at all the, the other Enneagram people and their cute quote cards, which are amazing. I love all of them. But like, in this self-discovery you need accuracy and you need radical compassionate honesty with yourself. And if you have a hard time with that, get somebody like me to help you with that so you have the right information and then you know how to integrate this and leverage this beautiful tool in your life. I mean, Sam, this tool has not only allowed me to break generational shit, this has allowed me to raise two incredible human beings in their mid-20s at this point. This has allowed me to make probably over $7 million over the last decade. This has allowed me to have the best supportive female friendships in my life. This has allowed me to not only fall in love, be in love, stay in love, and receive love in a way that I never have before. I would say that this tool can really help you transform your life, but you have to have the right information in order to use all parts of it. The growth number is kind of like the target we're always aiming for. So, having the right number is important. So, anytime I want to resist or justify some of the things I don't want to do, I look to my growth numbers like, "Well, no. If I'm raising my hand and saying I want to be the best version of myself, that is required." And, because I see the target I'm always aiming for, it's easier to lean into it and then use the other parts, you know, the wings because we have two wings, understanding the stress number, my tri-type. All of that can come into play to support the growth when every part of— I'm tapping out. So that was a very long answer to your question, but I think it was important to say.

Yeah, absolutely. No, and it's making me want to retest. I also had a question for you. I'm like, because I've heard people talk about this where their type changes, and I'm wondering like, is that possible, or is it maybe that they tested, like, wrong because they were answering from that behavioral perspective. And then they, they grew, and then they got more self-awareness, and then they retested and they were something different. Because it's been a long time since I've tested, and I was a 3, and I, I find that to be accurate. I think that is accurate, but I would love to do it again.

I don't feel that from you. Like, I, you know, I have some gifts that I can kind of pick up on things. And, you know, the funny thing about the Enneagram is the first 5 years I was using it, I didn't use any assessments and I didn't tell anybody I was using it. So I got really good at picking up on, on certain things. Um, I don't think— I don't believe our, our type changes, but the expression of it absolutely does. And that's why, like, the framework is also important to understand too. Like, if you think about my growing up in an alcoholic home, I could not lead with my 8 and in my home, right? I understood that not— that tool in the toolbox is not gonna be effective here. So I started to use both of my wings in not so healthy ways to survive in my home. Or when I was under extreme stress, and have been in times, I can see where my stress number comes into play. So a lot of times, depending on where we're at in our life, the goal in taking this Enneagram assessment, like what you want out of it it can alter the results you get. But I don't believe you're— like, when you're accurate, it doesn't change. I've always been an 8. Looking back at my life, like, the expression of it absolutely changed depending on the circumstances. But what has always motivated me, what has always been my biggest fear, absolutely runs completely true from the earliest of memories until almost 52 years later. Like, that is super helpful in understanding that anything that bothers me, anything that triggers me, anything that I get afraid of leads back to this single thing. It clears a lot of the, the clutter out of the way, and you can really pinpoint and go to the root of, of things for your life so that you can be you, the best version of you, and thrive in this lifetime. I feel 3 energy from you. But there's other components that absolutely come into play that I'm feeling from you. I feel a big 4 energy from you too, which if you are a 3, that's one of your wings. So, um, 4 is very beautiful and unique and intuitive and creative and spiritual in their own right too. So I'm picking up 3 or 4 energy from you, quite honestly.

Wow, okay, I've never thought about 4, and I thought— I, I When I've taken it before, I've always thought like Wing 2, which I know you can have. You have both.

You have both wings.

Yeah, you can have both. But yeah, I've never like leaned too much into the 4 because I know it's very much about like being like an individualist and wanting to be unique. And if people are copying you, you're kind of like, I don't like it anymore. I have a lot of clients that are like that, which is, which is—

yeah, 4s are the hardest to kind of type accurately because they're always kind of changing the game because they want to be so unique. Week. Um, my, my boyfriend is a 4, and I was raised with a 4, and I was like, oh my gosh, of course they're, they're challenging, and they bring so much beautiful, beautiful stuff to the world. I mean, they're the foodies, the comedians, the poets, the artists, the musicians, the— and they're tortured internally sometimes too, you know, like there's that. Um, but Yeah, I can feel that from you. Wow. I, I can— right, I don't know, I could be wrong, but usually not.

Usually not. Humble brag. I love it. Well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take the, uh, I'm gonna take your assessment because I'm curious just to like do it again and get like a really accurate result. So for anyone listening, if you guys have done the Enneagram before or you're totally new to it and you want to explore it and you want that really accurate result, we will absolutely link that in the show notes for you with a discount. And we will also link, of course, all of Tracy's socials so that you can go and follow her. She obviously is incredible at the work that she does. I got goosebumps earlier when you were talking about how much this work has changed your life and allowed you to, you know, make millions and become an even better mother and partner and friend. And I know that to be so true for me as well. All the personal growth tools that have meant so much to me I owe a lot to them because they've completely transformed my life and who I believe myself to be and how I show up and what I think is possible and the relationships and, and the love in my life. And so for anyone listening who needs that little piece of encouragement, uh, that it is worth it to work on yourself, let this be your reminder. It is so worth it. Worth it to go inward and figure out what's going on with you, um, and do that deeper inner work and healing, because it changes not only your life but the lives of all the people around you. And it's like a ripple effect that just creates magic beyond your wildest dreams. And Tracy is proof of that as well. So thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing all of your wisdom with us. Um, it's been such, such a pleasure. If you wanna shout out, do you hang out mostly on Instagram? Where are you at? And you have, you have a podcast? Yeah.

Instagram, Tracy_O'Malley. I have a podcast, Lead with the Enneagram, over 400 episodes. So once you have your type, like you can go binge. Um, you can binge without knowing your type, but seriously, super helpful. I, and I, it's called Lead with the Enneagram because I'm like, you have to be able to lead yourself, um, personally and professionally. So you can go find me at those two places. And I would love to hear if you got something out of this.

Yay. Thank you so much. I hope you guys enjoyed this episode. If you did, take a screenshot, share it to your Instagram stories, tag Tracy and I. As always, make sure that you follow wherever you are listening to the show, and we will see you guys next week. Bye.