Self Sabotage, Fear, Doubt & Shadow Work w/ Caitlin Hosking

Welcome to the Makeshift Happen podcast. I'm your host, Samantha Daly, entrepreneur, life coach, and your no BS bestie, here to bring you all things mindset, manifestation, and personal development. This podcast is designed to help you expand your mind and uplevel your life. So turn the volume up and roll the windows down if you're coming along for the ride.

Let's go make shit happen. Welcome back to the podcast, guys. Today I have a special guest with me on the show. She is a woman that I am so honored to share space with. We are currently in the same mastermind together, so I'm so grateful that we were able to connect. And I've been learning just so much from you and your personality and the way that you run your businesses and the way that you show up online. So I'm excited for you to share that with the audience today. But this is Caitlin. She is a self-sabotage coach. So I know you guys are going to get so much value from all the things that she has to share, as self-sabotage and fear is something that holds all of us back, whether you're a business owner or not. But I wanted to share your bio with everybody before I let you talk, because I just love— this kind of encapsulates her personality. And her bio on Instagram is, "I help ambitious women get the fuck out of their own way so they can create the business they desire." Desire. So welcome to the show, Caitlin.

Hi, thank you. Um, I am super excited to be here, and thank you for sharing your amazing listeners and audience with me. I just hope that they get so much out of today's episode, and I'm super excited to chat with you as well because your work is equally inspiring to me.

Oh, thank you. Okay, well, I, I'm so excited to dive in because I have a bunch of topics that I know we're going to be able to jam on together and that people are going to love. So the first thing that really came to my mind when I was thinking about like, oh, what should I have and talk about was this idea of comparison, because I know it's something that— I mean, as soon as you put yourself out there online and you decide to start a business of, of some sort, it's obviously going to show up. I know it's shown up for me. I know it's shown up for you. Um, but it's also something that I think a lot of people struggle with in life in general, is the idea of comparison. So I'd love to hear a little bit about how it's shown up for you And what's your sort of advice on what's helped you or your clients move through the comparison trap?

Yeah. So I think comparison was one of the things that has probably just kept me stuck for so much of my life. And I've been constantly looking outwardly and looking at other women thinking, oh, they're prettier than me, or they're skinnier than me, or they're richer than me, or they're luckier than me, or whatever it is. And that allowed me to just not do anything with my life because I was like, well, I don't have those things. I can't possibly really get to where they are, um, even though like I had those desires to do big things with my life. And as I started to like shift onto the online space, I mean, it obviously just gets worse because now you're looking at people who are only showing the highlight reels. And when we're just seeing highlight reel after highlight reel, I just think it triggers such a deep feeling of shame about who we are and not being, you know, I think all of us have a wound around not being good enough as it is. And then this just like piles on the evidence of, wow, I'm really not having a good day and it looks like everyone else has a good day every day. And so I must not be able to do X, Y, and Z because if I could, I would be, I would look like theirs, I would look like them. And it's awful. I actually just think it's such an awful trap to get stuck in, especially when you're not having a good day and you're just scrolling, scrolling, scrolling, and you just go deeper and deeper into shame about who you are as a person. And that really breaks my heart. And for me and for my clients and for pretty much every woman I've seen, this is something that's such an issue. And it's gross because there is no comparison. There is— you can't possibly compare one human to another and say that one is better than the other. That's, that's just such a conditioned response from humans that it sucks. And yeah, so for me, I mean, the biggest thing I do is just get off my phone. Like, if you're going to comparison bubbles, yeah, put the phone down and come back to your strengths and going, you know, what is it that I can offer the world, and what feels good for me as well. Because sometimes we ask them, what can I offer the world? It's like, oh, that's already been offered and it must be better for them. It's like, no, no. How can I make it mine? How can I have my spin on that and show up in a way that feels so authentic and real to me? Because that's how you get that endless energy that people almost talk about, is when you show up in a way that's so authentic. And aligned with you. Because there is no— when you're not showing up authentically, you're constantly scanning your environment for validation because you're not validating your own experience. And that is depleting and leads to a lot of burnout. And so it's kind of like, who am I? What do I want? Who— how do I want to show up? And if there's anyone triggering you, just get them out of your fucking space.

Yeah. Oh my God. So I just did an episode kind of talking about people pleasing and self-abandonment, and I think that really ties into comparison because, you know, the idea of what you just said of you're constantly scanning and looking for validation when you're not standing in your truth, you know, when you're doing what other people want you to do or what looks like it is going to work or what looks like is good or acceptable or fun or cute or normal or— right? Constantly scanning for that validation because it's not actually authentic. And when you're not authentic, it feels hard. That's why it feels so hard is because it's not truly your energy. It's not your truth. It's not your decisions. It's not the life that you actually want to lead or the message that you want to share. And that's why it feels more difficult. And I think, I don't know if you can relate to that. I'm sure you can in business. It's like we Of course, as humans, we're always evolving, and so we are in our businesses as well. And there's times in business where you're like, why does this feel so hard? And then you have to question, okay, what part of this isn't fully authentic? What part of this isn't actually how I want to do things or how I want to say things or how I want to sell things? I think that's probably a big one for early entrepreneurs is selling feels so hard. And it's like, well, of course selling feels hard if you're trying to copy the way that everybody else sells and you're not actually selling the way that you want to sell. Yeah. Because when it is authentic, it feels a lot easier.

Yeah. Yeah. And there's a lot that comes into selling. It's such a mindset game as well. And finding a way that feels aligned. And also this is where it can feel hard, right? Because it's like, where does my— a lot of wounds start to come into play here. And nothing— if your wounding is coming up, so I'm not good enough or I don't deserve money or whatever the story is, when that's coming up, nothing feels aligned. Like nothing feels good because there's still this deep, I don't deserve this anyway, so why would I do it? And that's where a lot of the work begins. And I believe that business is such a beautiful way to heal your trauma and like heal your, not even trauma, but like stories that you've held onto about yourself for so many years because it asks you to confront some of the deepest wounds we hold as a human race, which is rejection, uh, abandonment, you know, those two in particular, and being seen and heard in all of us.

Yeah, visibility, not enoughness.

Yeah, and it brings up all of it, it really does. And that's why I love helping in business, because I'm like, there's such a direct— there's such a directness to how much work you do internally and how your business is reflected through that work. And if you continue to do the work internally, your business continues to grow because you show up more aligned, more authentic, with more conviction. You have more of your energy and you just start to find your way and find your people. But I don't believe that's possible unless you do the mindset work, because you will constantly, as we said, like scan your environment, you'll get tired, you'll be trying to use strategies that other people have just gone, you know, make $7 million off this email sequence. And you're just writing this email sequence, not even thinking about, oh, is this actually what I want to do? Or do I just think it's going to make me money? And then when it doesn't, people are like, oh, nothing works. And they just quit. Okay.

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Mm-hmm.

And I think like, I would say the same for relationships too. I sort of feel like relationships and showing up online and having to present yourself to the world and sell and create a business of some short, are both really beautiful mirrors, like where you, you get shown where it is that your healing still needs to be done, right? Our partners do this for us in the same way that our businesses do it. We're like, oh my God, fuck, that triggers me so bad. What is that, right? Or like, this feels so hard, or this isn't jiving, this isn't, isn't meshing. I feel like I'm pushing up against a wall. Like, we feel that in relationships and in business. So those, I think, are two areas where we really get the chance to be shown where the work is that we need to do. But I love that you mentioned, if you haven't really gone through and addressed some of those deeper wounds or triggers or shadows, I guess we could say, um, it is hard to be like, okay, what feels good, what feels aligned, because you're always going to be blocked in some capacity by that. So I know that you do a lot of shadow work with your clients in some of your programs, and I think this is something that's sort of like not necessarily a mystery, but I think in personal development, when people are just starting out, it's not the first touch point, which I think it may be helpful if it were, because once you start to actually do some of that shadow work, the light work gets easier. But for a lot of people, the first touch point is you know, the more fun stuff, which is like journaling and meditation and manifestation and woo, oh my God, it's amazing. And then you hit the wall where you're like, I'm doing all these things, but I'm still not really— like, I'm— I feel better, but I'm still not getting exactly where I want to go. And that's when you're like, oh fuck, there's still so much buried underneath there that has to be worked through. So like, what does shadow work mean to you, and what are some of the ways that you help guide people through that deep and kind of murky process of, of looking at those things.

Yeah, uh, I mean, I love shadow work, and I just— it gets such a bad rap, doesn't it? It even starts with the name, like, shadow work. Oh, scary. But yeah, I just want to start by saying, like, if you're triggered by the thought of shadow work, bring some humor and lightness into it is always my first tip here because I got to a point where I was so deep into like wound healing and all of this stuff that it just started feeling heavy. And I was like, what is the point of this? Like, I just feel worse off. And then I, I don't know what it was, but I was just like thinking about things. I just started laughing and I was like, this is just so like, this is— I can't believe we— our brains just make such a big deal out of something that happened 20, 30 years ago, and— or something that has never happened that might potentially happen. And it's just, you know, it's not that our wounds are invalidated through the humor, but it's also just like, how can I bring some joy and ease into this? And that's why I really love doing shadow work now, is because you can bring joy and ease into it. And one thing that, like, shadow work to me is just it really is the core of what needs to be done. It's where we have to go if we want to truly embody, like, all the things that we say we want, like manifestation and self-love and authenticity and joy and peace and all of that. You don't get to that level without doing the flip side of the darker shadow work, because everything on this planet is 50/50, like there is equal parts in everything and everything is cyclical. So for me, it's allowing myself to go in and find parts of me that I have said are unacceptable and parts I've said are shameful and look at how they're now holding me back from being me and feeling those feelings that we deeply desire and meeting that part of me and then going, hey, like, what, what's actually going on here? And what I've found is like, no part of you hates you. That's what it sounds like. That's what our ego does to like, uh, to like twist us, to make us believe that, to not go there. But there is not one part of you that truly hates you. All parts love you and want you to be safe. That's it. And so when we start to see that and we start to break down, okay, where did this part come from? What's really going on? Who does this remind me of? Is always a great question. And giving that piece of us a voice and just seeing what they really need. Because as you go in and you start to heal— like, I did such a beautiful session with the client on this today, and, you know, all of these things were coming up in her business around being seen and deservability and all of this sort of stuff. And we just went back and it was just all rooted to this one moment as a child where she had made a mistake and it was surrounded— she was trying to do the right thing, she made a mistake and she got shamed and punished for it. And so she was like, even when I do the right thing, I, I— it's bad. And so she's taken that now as a 30, 40-plus woman and being like, I can't do the things I want. And so now we've gone back and understood how this is holding her where she is now. She can heal. And we go in, we let that part, whatever it needs, create safety. And now she— I, we had two coaching calls today because we had one-on-one and then a group. And I saw her 3 hours later and she was just like, it's just a huge shift. Just like happier, looks lighter. Her face is just like, oh, I feel so much better and I've created space and I'm like, you can't get there logically. You can't get there through just being like affirmation or manifestation or whatever. Like, that's part of it, but you don't get that deep shift without the shadow work, without actually figuring out what's going on and then healing it. And that is like, it's, it's just so exciting to me because it's— I see the fastest and biggest results with this work, and I'm like, everyone needs it. Like, everyone needs it in the whole wide world.

Yeah, I, I think, I think so too. I think it's, it's so universal. Like, there's not one person— because, you know, I think there's this misconception too that it's like, oh, shadow work is for people that have been abused or have had, you know, these sort of capital T traumas that are like big things that have happened that have really messed with them. And like, this is one of the things that I work, work with my clients on too, that is, you know, understanding a little bit more of how traumas can show up and that we all have these little t traumas that are just sort of any moment in time where you feel like you didn't get the recognition or you weren't seen or held or supported in the way that you needed, right? There's this beautiful definition of trauma. I wish I could remember who it's from, but it's from some psychologist and he says, Trauma isn't necessarily all the time what happens to you when we're speaking about these sort of more common traumas. It's what you hold inside in the absence of an empathetic witness. And so that's exactly what you're talking about, is when you go back to those moments, you become the empathetic witness to your own experience that you didn't have in that moment. And that's where you start to create healing. So I love that definition. Of trauma, just for anybody who's thinking like, I probably don't need shadow work because like my life has been quote unquote normal, right? Um, but so just to give a different perspective of, you know, how that might be necessary. But another question that I get a lot from people is like, but if I write down or think about all of these maybe negative things or fears or doubts or, you know, self-limiting beliefs that I have isn't that going to manifest? Like, isn't that like bad for me to go there and address it? So this is like a huge thing that we always have to dispel. So I'd love to hear your response on that, because I mean, like, I know what it is, but like, I want your take on, isn't doing shadow work gonna manifest bad things for me, Caitlin?

Yeah, I love it. I love it. I have such a great analogy that I give for this one as well, because I fully— yeah, because there's like the traditional personal development concept is always focus on where you want to go and what you want and all of the that sort of stuff, because if you don't focus on that, then you're just going to go back to wherever you were. And it's like, yes, absolutely, you need to focus on what you want. However, between you and getting that thing is a lot of obstacles, and I imagine it so you're in a room and the lights are off and you— there's a door somewhere. That door, on the other side of that door is whatever, all the money, love, sex that you want on the other side. Amazing. However, to get to that door, there is all of these poles everywhere and you just keep running into the pole and you're like, why can't I get past this pole? Because the lights aren't on, you literally have no way. You have— or you're kind of like in there and you're kind of like eyes shut and you, you know, touching the pole and you're like, is this right? Is this right? I don't know. Oh, that's the pole that I was at last time. This is what we see with people's behavior, right? The same thing happening again and again and again and again. You're like, like, it's exhausting being in that spot as well. And so what we do with shadow work is we turn the lights on and now the whole room is illuminated. We're like, there's a pole, a fear, a limiting belief, a thing, a thing that needs healing, whatever it is. And we can go in and address each one of those. So it's not that the pole gets magically removed, but you can now be like, oh, that's that thing, and I can walk around it. And then as you do that, you get closer and closer to that door. And there's lots of mini doors on the way as well, which is the best part, right? We are constantly getting these wins, but when we allow ourselves to turn those lights on, it allows us to see the doors and we can actually get there rather than repeating the same thing, which is what self-sabotage is.

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Yeah, yeah, the same relationship patterns, the same self-doubt getting in the way, the same blocks that you place on yourself and your own success. Totally. I, I actually was just listening to Shaman Durek talk about something, and he put this in such an interesting way by saying, you know, we visualize our Highest Self, our true self, our light self, being like this amazing, like sparkly, like goddess being version of us. And he was like, but actually your highest self, your light self, is the one that disguises itself as the shadow because it's directing you to where you need to go in order to move forward and heal and advance and progress. So it's almost like we think, oh, we have our highest self and we have our shadow self and they're two separate things and the shadow self is this negative bad thing. And it's like, actually, your shadow self is also your highest self because it's providing you the lesson that is meant to be learned in order for you to move through and move beyond. And I thought that was such a cool way of looking at it as like your light self disguises itself as the shadow to be like, hey, This is what you need to fix. Like, this is where the work needs to be done. I love that. I love that way of visualizing. Yeah. But okay, so self-sabotage is obviously like your sauce. That's like what you do. That's— you're a self-sabotage coach. That's— I am the sauce. Um, so yeah, let's talk about self-sabotage. Like, what is— what are some of the most common ways or things that you think create self-sabotage. And I mean, obviously we've just talked about a big one, which is those deeper shadows, but I'd love for you to expand on the concept of self-sabotage and how you have seen it to show up and where it comes from and how we can start to move through it.

I— it's such a— it's such a big one for everyone. It doesn't matter like what level you're on. I really believe everyone kind of sabotages something at some way, even if it's just for a day. But bringing the awareness at the start, at the start of most people's journey, it's, it's so obvious. And we can, we see that with the overeating, um, the, you know, extreme binging on Netflix and whatever it is, right? Like these really extreme behaviors where it's like over the top and Even on the opposite, so if people are very strict, like it's still extreme. So they're strict with their food, they're strict with their routines, they're strict with, um, their rules. And so that is a form of sabotage because one, it's really exhausting, and two, they're usually protecting themselves from something. There's a fear there and they're protecting themselves from it. Same with the other end, like these two ends. And then procrastination is another obvious one, so The main ones I see would be the food-related ones, the procrastination, the perfectionism, the people-pleasing for sure, and then fear. So just, you know, fear of judgment or fear of those sorts of things. Fear of failure is a huge one. And where do they come from? I mean, they all come from, again, childhood stuff. And I just— when you're talking about like the big T and the little t, which is what I was doing, and I was like, big T situation, because I was like, yeah, but the little t, that was me to a T. I had— I'm very lucky, I'm very blessed, I'm very grateful to have my upbringing because I had parents who loved me, a very stable household, and I could never figure out for the life of me why my brain felt so cooked and why I felt so out of control and I felt so depressed. And why was I like— why couldn't I stop drinking and smoking and doing all the things? Like, I'm a— I'm— when you look at the research, I'm not a product of the upbringing. So what's wrong with me? And I thought that I was deeply, fundamentally flawed for a long time in my life. And I feel a lot of people feel that way for lots of different reasons. And I was like, yeah, but I've had nothing big. It just doesn't make sense. And so as I started to do this work, and that's why I talk about it today, is there was just a part of me that I wanted to understand, and personal development helped me understand it. Before that, I felt just deep shame and guilt about everything I had done in my life. And so what I started to see was really this thing of the child who is being conditioned and imprinted on and making meanings out of anything. Because that's what we do as children. We don't have higher executive functioning, we don't have a prefrontal cortex. And the part of the, the prefrontal cortex part of the brain allows us to think logically about something and see a decision all the way through and understand consequences and all of that. Whereas as a child, we don't have that because we don't have anything to gauge what a consequence would be from anyway. And so during these really prime years We're growing up going, "Well, I did this and I got punished for it, so don't do that, that's bad." And when I said this to my friend, they went and told all of the girls and they shamed me. So don't do that, that's bad. It's unsafe for me to speak my truth or speak up. For me, I really found that I had a friend through my formative years who I met when I was 4, which is a very key time in your life. Prime. Yeah, and she was the product of a household that was very toxic and abusive, and so she took a lot of that out on me. And because it's such a thing to talk about, uh, childhood trauma coming from parents and family, I never associated that this actually might come from someone else in my life. And so as I started to look at that, I was like, oh, you know, every time I try to set a boundary, she would abuse me. Every time I would try to, you know, do something that wasn't what she wanted, I would, I would cop it. And I, I would just loved her so much. And I remember just, you know, being like, she's my best friend and all of that. So it didn't matter. So I allowed her to keep running these things because I didn't want her to leave. And I remember this all came out when I was doing relationship work, and I was like, they're asking questions around, um your parents and how your parents communicate and how you— and I was like, well, this doesn't match up with my relationship patterns at all. And then it just like— her name just like popped into my head and I was like, oh, like I've been dating my best friend from when I was 4 for 10 years. That's crazy. And it just started to make so much sense. Like I had just made all of these meanings, like I can't set boundaries, it's not safe to be heard, um, it's not safe to be seen. You just have to sit on the sidelines of life. Like, that's for everyone else who's ready to go out and take it. Because every time I had tried that, I'd been put back in my box because she wanted to shine brighter than me. And on top of this, there was my mom, who I like love and bless her, but she was a surgeon and she used to literally save children's lives. And so as a child, I don't understand why my mom— like, the importance of that really, but all I know is that my mom is leaving the house constantly to go help someone. So some— there's always someone else who's more important than me. And this came into my relationships, which is probably where most of this started for me. Um, and then it started to come in with food. And I used to try to control what my body looked like because I believed that was the only part of me that made me good enough. And I was so afraid of letting that part of me be imperfect because then I was unacceptable, because that's what I had been taught. And so it turned into self-sabotage with these real extreme strict behaviors. And with my relationships, I wasn't setting boundaries, so I'd have toxic men constantly walking all over me, making me feel like I wasn't good enough. And I had formed those wounds from such a— meanings from such a young age that I wasn't good enough, that I was trying to this is how I see it now. I didn't see it then, obviously, but I was constantly trying to prove that I wasn't worthy through my behavior and sabotaging with alcohol, drugs, smoking, um, you know, just whatever else. And so it really just helped me understand that over time, it didn't matter what I changed, I still fundamentally felt the same., and I would start sabotaging in different ways. So sometimes it was the extreme, sometimes it was the other end. And then I figured it out. Like, it's just like it came to me one day, and I had obviously done a lot of reading, but you know when you're doing a lot of reading and you're like, this doesn't really make sense to me, and then there's just something that someone says? And for me it was— I don't know why this is so basic, and I had done a whole degree in psychology, but it was like your thoughts create your feelings, which create your actions, which creates your reality. And I was just like, what? And then I was like, what? And it's just like I had an out-of-body experience. I started witnessing my own thoughts. And at the— in that moment, I had been feeling anxious. I was like, I wonder what I'm thinking right now. And I had been thinking about a uni assignment, and I had been like, it's not going to be good enough, you're not going to get good enough marks. If you don't get good enough marks, then this is what's going to happen. And I got it. I was like, oh, of course I feel anxious all the time. Of course I have to control my life using food. Of course I feel like I have to have men to look after me and protect me because my thoughts tell me that I can't look after myself. And when I started to heal those parts of me and understand where it came from, it stopped me from doing these things and allowed me to excel in my life. And that's why I love to talk about it, because it's very confronting. And I fully understand that it is so confronting to think about. Even saying I self-sabotage is very hard for people because their ego doesn't want them to say that, because the shame underneath of like saying I self-sabotage means to the ego that's almost saying like I failed. I failed as a human being. But it's not, it's not what that means. And what I found is the more I talked about this stuff out loud, um, in my own journey, and now still to this day, the faster it shifted. And so I really invite people to look at their lives and be like, what is going on here? What are the patterns that I'm running? And what are my thoughts and feelings about those patterns? Because that's your first point of interest.

Yeah, yeah, patterns are— patterns are huge. Like, that's probably a really good place for people to start if they feel like they have some sort of pattern in their relationships or in their, you know, relationship to themselves or their body. Or like you talked about with food, I think that's such a big one for so many women. Like, I really don't know anyone that hasn't had unhealthy thoughts about food and exercise and what it takes to be good enough in that sense. So, and I think like, it's— when you start to do this work, the biggest thing that we realize is that it's not about any of those things. Like, it's not about food, which is what you think when you're like, oh, why am I so strict with myself? Why am I so controlling with myself? Why do I put myself on these these really strict diets or goals and try to stick to it, and then I can never stick to it. Oh, I'm just like inconsistent, I'm unmotivated, I'm lazy, right? When you go beyond that, you start to realize it's not even about the fucking food. Never. It never was. Like, it never was and it never is. The food is just the sort of vessel through which you are trying to cope and numb and solve the overall, like, anxiety or uncertainty that you have within yourself, or your feeling of unworthiness, right? So I think that's one of the biggest things. When you do start to, like, go deeper and look at your life and question, why is this a pattern for me? What is actually going on here? You will realize that it's not about the thing that is on the surface. That you originally thought it was about, right? It's about something a lot different than that. And it usually always goes back to our relationship to ourself in some way, right? How do we feel about ourself? Like you talked about, I felt like I couldn't share my truth. It wasn't safe for me to, you know, say what I wanted or to shine bright or to go after things, like, because then people didn't like me. It's all of that, like, inner self-worthiness that comes to the surface. And once we shine a light on it, we can start to take away that power and start to put a stop to those toxic cycles or patterns that we've gotten ourselves into. So I agree with you. I mean, I think this work is so freaking important, whoever you are in the world, whether you— and I love that you shared the fact that you, that you felt like you didn't have any reason to feel the way that you felt, because I think a lot of people can relate to that, you know. Not that trauma is ever a good thing, but I think when you know some of the bigger things that have fucked you up, it's a little bit easier to begin that journey because you know where to start. But when you are someone like yourself, or myself as well, who are really fortunate with the relationships that we have with our parents and our family, and, you know, the things that happened for us in our household growing up, it is sort of confusing because it's like, well, I don't have any reason to feel this way or to feel unworthy or to feel unlovable or to be questioning myself all the time or to have such low self-confidence or self-esteem. Like, I must just be— I must just be flawed, like you said. So I love that you shared that because I think that will validate a lot of people's feelings that are listening, being like, oh yes, I can so relate. Like, I just don't even know the origin of this stuff. Because it's not something that's so black and white that just like jumps out at me. It's something that maybe that, um, has to, uh, be searched for a little bit, a little bit deeper.

Yeah.

So I wanna, I wanna talk about this because you mentioned this on your Instagram, um, this sort of like addiction to safety that we have. Because this is again like something that's really going to make us self-sabotage, right? Is wanting to be safe, wanting to be liked, wanting to be well perceived, wanting to fit into the box. Yeah. So talk about that a little bit, like this addiction to safety and how you or your clients have like seen that show up, and hopefully that'll resonate with some people.

Yeah. So the one thing that's really important and to understand is that we can have all the thoughts in the world, but we don't act from a thought. We always are acting from a feeling. And so when we have a, like, really deep addiction to feeling a certain way, in particular, like, feeling really safe, we— it's hard to break out of. And I just want to be clear, like, of course we want to feel safe. The brain has one job, and it's to keep us alive. And so a feeling or of not feeling safe or discomfort, evolutionary purpose is to get us back into feeling not, not being in danger, right? But unfortunately, what's happened is over the hundreds of thousands of years, we don't have tigers and lions hunting us anymore. We have, you know, bitchy girls, social media. Yeah, social media, bitchy girls at school, like all of that is trying to like hunt us down, and that's what it feels like. And we're so afraid to be perceived in a way that's not enough, not enough because we don't want to be rejected by society and blah blah blah, whatever the story is. And so it's— the problem is, is when we're doing that, we're really not allowing ourselves to move forward in our lives. We're, we're not ever going to follow our truth, our authenticity, because is often our truth and authenticity is not in alignment with what's socially acceptable. Yeah. And it triggers people because, and this is something I really struggled with for a lot of my life and a huge part of my journey is the feeling of discomfort in the body is like probably the worst thing ever. And it feels disgusting. And people want to avoid it. And that, you know, coping mechanisms, right? That's how we avoid discomfort because we just numb it out. And so avoidance comes out those ways. We go to do something, this feeling comes up, we take that feeling meaning, oh, I can't do this, I'm incapable, maybe I need to learn more before I feel confident, or whatever it is, whatever the story.

It's probably, it's probably not the right decision because it feels so hard.

Yes, that is a huge one. And because we don't know how to manage those feelings, we don't know how to manage those emotions in our body, we're just like, fuck it, I'm out, I'm not doing it, I'm not, it's too hard, it's too much, I just can't do this, I'm just gonna go back to what I was doing. Because that feels safe, it feels good. And people are just, they're so used to the level of shitness in their life they're so used to what that feels like. The average fucking relationship, the average job where you don't care about it, you know, you don't have anything that you want, but it's fine. And it's not fine, but you're just so used to it and your brain has like numbed out to it. And I hate that. I really hate that because people have so much potential if they could manage that feeling in their body and then start to action what they want. And starting to realize, like, just because you have a feeling in your body and, yeah, that it feels like you're gonna die, but it's learning to ground yourself and go, I'm not gonna fucking die. Like, what am I scared of? That one person that I've never talked to making a comment to someone I'm never going to meet? Like, no, no. And the more you start to, like, shift into that and to understand that, you know, this is illogical, it will help, it will help bring you back and then shift that feeling in your body and then take the action anyway. Because the thing that's important to realize is, and everyone knows this, when you're in fight or flight response, you are literally just, you don't even know what happens. That's like when you're arguing with your partner and you've gone in, you're like, I'm going to have a very very like sensible conversation, and then they trigger you and you're like, what the fuck is wrong with you? Blah blah blah. And you're just like throwing all these things at them that you promised yourself you wouldn't say, and you walk away and you're like, why'd I do that? And that's because when we're triggered, we're just illogical. We've lost— like what I was talking about before— we've moved from the prefrontal cortex into limbic system of our brain, which is more primal. So we've lost executive functioning. So we can't see things all the way through. All we care about in that moment is finding safety. And yeah, the bigger the capacity for managing that actual emotion and feeling in your body, the way more success you're going to have. Because now I feel that feeling and I'm like, feels like I'm shitting my pants, I'm going to wet myself, I'm probably going to vomit. I don't know what the fuck is going on. I'm just like, my brain's going crazy and I'm like, Oh wait, hold on, I'm in fight or flight response. And I take a breath and I can pause and I'll be like, okay, am I actually gonna die? Let's just check off like basic human survival. No one's following me with a knife, cool, great. There's no tigers, awesome, right? This is psychological, I think I'll be okay. And then I can start to go through it.

Yeah, I thought it was so good when you said it feels like you're gonna die because I was thinking for myself, like, the— that feeling, a moment that I can like remember that feeling of like, it feels like I'm gonna die if I do this, was quitting my job. I was like, it feels like— like, obviously it's possible. Obviously I could walk in there and be like, I quit. Like, obviously I have free will, but it literally feels like there's like a freaking force. Like someone has like the Star Wars force holding you back. You cannot move forward. So I think, yeah, and there's nothing more frustrating than witnessing that in yourself and also witnessing it in others where you're like, "Oh my God, you are stopping yourself so hard right now." I'm sure you experience this a lot being a self-sabotage coach. This is what you do. But I think I think like in terms of that feeling of feeling like you're gonna die, obviously career changes and asking for what we want in all areas of our life, asking for what we want from in terms of jobs or salary, also what we want or need from our partners, um, asking for what we want or need in terms of setting boundaries, like all of that can feel really, really scary to people because it is, um, a moment that is an opportunity for someone to dislike you or be upset with you, which is that feeling of, of discomfort and pain that we're constantly trying to avoid.

Yeah.

Um, but yeah, there's nothing worse than seeing someone who is addicted to safety in a place that's actually not safe, right? Because this is a real— like you said, this is proven by psychology that we become addicted to feelings, and we can become addicted to really good feelings and we can follow those and lead through those. But we can also become addicted to bad feelings. We can become addicted to feeling not enough. We can become addicted to feeling sad. We can become addicted to feeling whatever, all these other negative feelings that we don't actually want to feel. And, you know, that's where you'll find people stuck in relationships that from the outside you're like knocking, banging on the door, being like, yo, you need to get out. This person is not treating you the way that you deserve to be treated.

This is a toxic relationship.

Relationship. It's on and off all the time. They're manipulating your behavior. They're telling you what to do. They're telling you what to wear. Or, you know, it's hot and cold, in and out, like up and down, all over the place. Like, what are you doing? But the person who's in that experience is addicted to that feeling of like chasing and then feeling validated, and they can't get out because it's that feeling of I'm gonna die if I say, hey, this isn't for me anymore, I'm done, because then they're left alone and that means that they're unworthy or they're unlovable or they're never going to find somebody else or no one's ever going to love them again. Um, so yeah, it's pretty crazy how we can become addicted to those feelings, especially the feeling of safety, even when it's false sense of safety. I think that's the biggest thing.

Yeah, right. It was like, that's the thing that we see and when someone's not achieving their goal, like this is always the people, I want to achieve this goal, I want to achieve this goal, I want to lose the weight. And I used to do, I was used to always work in emotional eating and with that sort of stuff. And they, you know, I want to lose this weight, why can't I lose it? I always just end up at square one, yo-yo dieting, on-off, all of the things, right? And the reason is, is that wherever you're at now feels way safer than where you want to be. And they go, how could that be possible? You know, everyone wants to be skinny, right? Look at all these happy skinny people. It's a lie. Like, it's not mean you're happy, but they, they associate it with that. It's like, no, because a lot of times weight is put on as a way of getting people not to look at them and not to be seen. And that's because of societal conditioning. And we're not gonna go on about patriarchy, that's a thing. And it's like just going, alright, where— what's gonna happen? What could potentially happen if I lose this weight? Well, people might give me compliments, people start paying me attention, I might have to start dating, which is the thing I'm currently avoiding because I don't believe in my brain that being overweight you can find love which is again not true but it's a very commonly held belief and so then I'm gonna have to be vulnerable and then I'm going to have to put my heart out there and then I might get heartbroken if I get heartbroken blah blah blah right? It just goes on and so there's such a lack of safety in the end result that people can't move forward or they start to move forward and then they sabotage because they start noticing what's what's going on. And it's never like— very rarely is this probably ever conscious. But if you are struggling to like get to a goal and you've set the same goal 100 times— like, what's April? What was your New Year's resolution? You know, and if you've set that same New Year's resolution for 5 years, it's not because you're shit or you don't have enough motivation or all the things we touched on before. It's because there's no safety in that end result. And so it's going, okay, what issues, what things need to be resolved in that end result before I can get there? And then as you start to do that, it just— you start to feel better within yourself anyway, and everything just feels more like natural and flowy over time. But that first hurdle is just really understanding that and really understanding where that discomfort is coming up, because the brain just wants to avoid pain. It's a very simple routine: avoid pain, go towards pleasure. So in any given moment, it's only working that way. And so if you're not getting the result, it's because that result is associated with pain in some way.

Yes.

Oh my God, I love this. This is one of my favorite prompts for shadow work, is like, what part of you doesn't want it? Right? What part of you thinks that it would be easier to not have it? Which is sort of kind of like the fear of success, which in my head I was always like, who the fuck is afraid of success? You know, because I'm like a big fear of failure person. But that, that is really kind of what that means, is like there's a part of you that isn't prepared for either what it's gonna be like when you get there, when you achieve the thing, or what it's going to take to get there, right? What that's going to be like. There's a part of you that sees struggle or challenge in that. So by asking yourself, what part of me doesn't want a relationship, even though you're saying all the time, I want to find someone, if I want to find someone, I want to be in a relationship, it's like, well, perhaps there's a deeper part of you that is actually scared that when you do find someone that you have feelings for you will get hurt again, or they'll cheat on you again, or they'll ghost you again, or whatever it is, right? So I love, love, love, love that you said that, because I think it's relevant to absolutely any, any type of goal or direction that you're going in, is just questioning for yourself, like, okay, what part of me may not actually feel safe achieving that, or moving towards that, or having that thing? Right? I love that. Um, I think that's so, so, so good. Oh, um, okay, I have— I pulled a quote from your Instagram.

Beautiful.

Because I'm beautiful. Um, I want you to— I want you to touch on this because I think it's something that a lot of people will be able to relate to in terms of manifestation. So the quote was, you can have self-doubt and still manifest what you want. Yep. And so yeah, I'd love for you to speak on that because I'm sure certainly there's— all of us are in the process of manifesting something or moving towards a certain goal and we have moments of self-doubt. So what's your take on that, of you can have self-doubt and still manifest what you want?

Yeah, so the reason I wrote that was because I actually had just had a very successful launch that I doubted until the last minute. The entire time I was like, I don't think this is happen, guys. I don't know. And it— until probably that happened, I had just been like, no, I have to think positive, I have to think positive, I have to— I can't— oh my God, I'm having self-doubt. Oh, what needs to be done? And I'll just like overthink the whole thing. And the problem isn't the self-doubt. The problem is what you then do when you doubt yourself, because you're like, holy crap, I have all this self-doubt and now I'm feeling overwhelmed and anxious. I'm feeling like incapable, whatever it is. And so you stop showing up, you don't do the thing, you sabotage in some way, you do avoidance behavior, you do a coping mechanism, whatever it is. And that creates a result, and then that result feeds back into these thoughts. Oh, I can't do this, blah blah blah blah blah, I whatever. But if you actually just had a thought of self-doubt and you looked at it and you were like, thank you so much for letting me know that I'm on the right path. Because you wouldn't have self-doubt if you were just doing the same shit you'd always done and you would have the same results. So self-doubt is actually a great thing to be like, you're doing it, sister. Like, this is it. You're leaving your comfort zone. You're doing something new. You're going to get a new result. So exciting. And you just took that and you were like, amazing.— like, imagine you had a really positive feeling out of it. And so what action are you going to take from that? Well, maybe if you're in business, you go write a really inspired Instagram post, or, you know, you have a sales consult, you jump on it, and you're just like, guys, I'm heading the same way. Like, your energy comes across as really exciting. And what is it that's manifesting? Because it ain't your thoughts, it's the energy, it's the feeling. And so if you can just shift the meaning you attach to self-doubt, you're still going to be in the energy of manifesting the whole time, rather than, oh, that means it's not going to happen. Because as soon as you slip into, oh, that means it's not going to happen, your energy shifts, you're out. So it's just changing that. And yeah, I just, I just spent that whole time in this launch just being like, it's not going to happen, I don't know, I don't know. But for some and there's a part of me that kind of believes it, so I'm just gonna keep going. And I just kept going. I just leaned back. I showed up when I felt like I, you know, had something that was positive to share or helpful to share. I showed up when I felt like shit because that's part of my, like, it's part of my thing. I just showed up and it happened. And I was like, crazy. It's not the self-doubt, it's just the relationships relationship to self-doubt and blew my mind. I blew my mind.

Yeah, that's it. It's not the self-doubt, it's the relationship to self-doubt, because it is exactly as you said, the meaning that we assign, right? Everything that happens in life is about the meaning that we've assigned to it.

Yeah.

And you get to create that meaning. So just be careful with the meanings that are coming through for you, right? Oh, I've had a thought of self-doubt, that means I'm going to fail. Or like you said, maybe that just means that I'm on the right path and I'm doing something scary and big and outside my comfort zone. And that's exciting because that means I'm going to get a new result. Fuck yeah. Right? Like you get to choose, you get to create that shift. So I love that so much. And I did just want to touch on like, because you mentioned that's part of like, that's part of my thing is showing up vulnerably online. So if you guys don't follow Caitlin, all of her links will be in the show notes. But it is just like so inspiring to see someone show up in their rawness online, especially in the coaching space. Because again, I think we get into this imposter syndrome of feeling like I have to be perfect and I have to never have doubt and I have to always be positive and I have to always be on. Because how can I guide anybody else if that's not the case? But you have become so good at just opening the door to the reality of what's going on. And that serves people too, which is the biggest thing that I think people forget is you are still helping people and serving people when you show up on Instagram Live or you post a bunch of photos of you crying and feeling like— I'm so scared or fearful or doubtful, that opens the door for other people to be like, "Oh my gosh, if I'm feeling that way, it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm doing things wrong or I'm going to fail." Like we just talked about, right? Is you can have the self-doubt and still move forward and create the life and the business and the things that you want.

Yeah. Yeah. It all stemmed from, you know, when I first stepped into my business, I tried to show up that way and looked at my business went fucking nowhere. Like, I just posted the same shit everyone else did and it wasn't interesting. It was just like, I've read this 20 times from 20 different people, who cares? And because that's the thing, anyone can teach boundaries, anyone can teach manifestation, anyone can teach anything, right? It's, it's you that's really important to your business, especially in a personal and service-based brand or business. And I had this breakdown, it's actually in the slides that you're talking about, there's the video at the end of these slides, um, if you want to read the post called Fuck Your Perfectionism. And there's a video of me crying, and this was actually the breakthrough moment for me to decide to start showing up online authentically. Because I was on the phone, uh, in a Zoom call with my coach, and she was like, what's going on? I was in the was bawling. I was like, I don't feel good, and I feel like everyone else has their shit together, and I'm never gonna make it, and all this stuff. And I was like, I'm just going on Instagram and it's just so perfect, and I'm just not that. And I just, you know, you know, I'm not good enough as a coach. And, you know, just question your whole existence, as you do in a breakdown. And she was like, great, that's what needs to be seen. I was like, what? Sorry? And she was like, this is like— is this not the truth? And I was like, well, yeah. And just telling me that it's, you know, there's an energy that when you're— it's like when you're standing with someone and they're saying all the right things and you're like, there's just something about you, like there's just something there that's not quite— it's a bit shady. Like, I feel like you're fucking shady. And she was like, you know, if you do— if you're showing up in a way just to please other people, it's, it's also manipulation. And you're not going to get sales, your business is not going to take off. I was like, brutal, but yeah, okay, fair. And I was like, okay, okay, cool, cool. So that was the moment. I actually never— I— that, that post was the first time I ever posted that particular video, but I had shown up, um, after I had had like the full release, and I had just kind of stepped a little bit into that space of showing up like that. And then I just found like I started attracting people who were thanking me for this. And I was like, crazy, what? And it did two things for me. One, it allowed me to, it allowed me to keep going because I was getting burnt out and I was getting sick of feeling a certain way and then pretending it wasn't because that is fucking shithouse. And the other part was I was like, I don't want people to feel like I did. I don't want people to come to the online space and see the coach who's made it, who's always perfect, who's always showing up a certain way, um, or hasn't even made it. I hadn't made it. I had like 500 followers and I was just like, oh, I'll give it a crack. And I wanted people to see that you could be authentic, you could be vulnerable, you could be transparent and grow a successful coaching business. By being you. And there was nothing wrong with emotions. And I know that when we're in our deepest, darkest, most like, you know, we close the doors off to the world and we say this part of me is unacceptable. And those are the parts that keep us so hidden in our life and keep us so far away from our dreams. Because every time we shame them and say they're unacceptable, it means that we're afraid of someone seeing that. And so we're not going to shine as bright brightly as we want because then we're not hidden. And through this journey, it's allowed me to shine brighter and to really embrace a lot of self-love. And I can fully validate every part of me now, which is such an incredible experience because I have so much peace. I used to have those chaotic thoughts like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, 24 hours a day. And now I put my head down on the pillow, I'm asleep in 2 minutes. Minutes. I wake up, I feel clear. I'm always feeling in this like— not always, that's a lie, but I'm usually feeling in like this really clear space. And when I'm having a breakdown, instead of resisting it— because it's not the emotion, it's not the breakdown that's usually the problem, it's the resistance to going there— because society shames emotion. Society says having a bad day, having a cry, having an emotion is not good enough. You need to get on with it. You need to, you know, put put your big girl pants on and off you go. And I was like, this is not okay. No wonder everyone feels fucked. So why don't I just become the person that shows you that you can be successful, you can make it, and you're still gonna feel fucked sometimes. You're still gonna cry. You're still gonna be on the bathroom floor just being like, what am I doing with my life? And get up a few hours later and get on with it in a way that's not because I'm forcing myself, but because I fully gone and nurtured and accepted and validated and done the work that needs to be done there. And then I'm clear and I keep going. And I just find it so helpful for people to be like, oh, like Caitlin's got a successful business, especially now. I mean, it wasn't that great then, but it was on its way. But especially now, people would be like, oh right, this is normal. Oh, how I'm feeling is normal. Oh, this— oh, there's something I can do about this. Crazy. And so then they go and they start actually using the tools and they step up into whatever they want to step into and they feel okay. Even when they have a bad day, they can keep going. Whereas what we previously is that someone has a bad day and it's like they ricochet off it and then just rebound backwards, you know, 3 months of work because they're like, oh, I've had a bad day. I haven't done it right. Start again. No, no, no. It's not how it works.

That's why this is the— this is the work of like fully feeling your feelings, right? Like, I think people sometimes don't really understand what it means when people are like, feel your feelings. Like, that's a really common quote that's like all over Instagram, right? Feel your feelings. Like, hello, but actually feel your fucking feelings. That means sit in your cry, like ugly cry, snot down your face, like scream into the pillow, have a depressing shower where you just sit on the floor of the shower and cry. And I think people are afraid of letting that in. They're afraid of feeling that. They're afraid of experiencing that. Because again, like we talked about with shadow work, they think that, "Oh, if I let myself feel so negative and so bad, then that's what I'm going to create." And I think it's— I don't think, I know it is more damaging for you to pretend that that doesn't exist and to try to just shove it down and move on, because it will come up later and stronger and worse. Like, it, it will, it will come back with a vengeance of like, bitch, you will see me, you will feel me. So, um, and I just love that you show that so openly and vulnerably online, so You guys definitely should go give Caitlin a follow. But also I'd love for you to let everybody know if they are ambitious women building businesses, how they can get into your world and work with you.

Amazing. So I work with women building businesses and women who know they want to build businesses and they've got all of that self-doubt and fear coming up. And so that really And I knew I wanted to have a business even though I was like, I don't know how to get there. That's what I start. This is where I start now with women because it's removing all of these blocks. And that's what I'm super passionate about. And I've watched so many of my clients go from, you know, binge drinking, relationships not good, all of that until they've started and like now their businesses are thriving within a year and 6 months and sometimes even 1 month., and it's just, it's so crazy. So that's who I work with. Um, currently I'm about to launch my favorite, favorite, favorite program, Ignite, and it's such an incredible program. It does all of this shadow work and it only goes over 4 days. And the reason I did that is because of course shadow work is going to feel hard. I mean, we can bring humor to it, but it's still going to feel hard. And in these 4 intensive days, we come together and we actually, we're going to use archetypes maps, and we go in and we meet different parts of you and we fully integrate them. And it just removes so many blocks and gets people standing in this incredible, powerful energy. And the results that I see are just— it's so bizarre to me because even my mind couldn't comprehend how big the results would be after 4 days. And so yeah, this is launching, um, this week and next week. So the last week of April and the first week of May, and we'll be starting at the end of May. So there's lots of time for people to, you know, take time off if they need to. But that's what's happening. And then I'll have some other things rolling out in the next few months. And I also have a podcast, so if you do want to go chuck a listen to that, it's Free Your Fears. And follow me on Instagram at Complete— oh my God, I can't even remember my Instagram name. It's like just gone. Complete_by_kaitlyn. And always feel free to like message me or ask me any questions because I really am an open book and I'm so happy for people to slide in and to create safety because I do empathize with how confronting this can be and to even think about going there. And so I do want to create safety and compassion even though I have a fiery personality. I also have a huge heart and I just want you guys to win and succeed in everything you do. So the door is open.

I'm going to link all of her— all of Caitlin's tags and Instagram and podcasts and everything in the show notes for you guys. So if you have connected with this episode and everything that Caitlin has shared, you're inspired by this idea of deep shadow work, you're interested in joining her for 4 Days of Ignite, make sure that you go ahead and head over to her Instagram and check it out. Thank you guys so much for listening. If you loved this episode, take a screenshot, share it to your stories, send it to a friend, all the things. Sending you guys so much love, and we'll catch you next week.

Bye!