Workaholism & Surviving Extreme Burnout w/ Jaz Borri

What's up guys, welcome back to the podcast. I'm so excited to introduce you to today's guest.

We have Jazz Boree back on the show.

She's been here before. She is a podcast host herself, a spiritual entrepreneur, a postmodern witch, a shadow work mentor for founders, and one of my close friends. In this incredibly honest and real conversation, we talk about the challenges of online entrepreneurship, and Jazz lets us peek behind the curtain at the volatility and constant ups and downs that she experienced both in her own energy towards her business and in those revenue spikes and drops. She shares candidly about realizing that she was a workaholic and what that actually means, plus how to know if you are experiencing signs of workaholism yourself. She shares the full story behind why she decided to take a 2-month sabbatical and go offline, what she got up to in her time away, and the challenges of letting go of work as a coping mechanism. We also chat about what it's been like for her recently resurfacing and coming back online, why it's been the hardest part yet, and how her relationship to work has changed. So whether you are an entrepreneur or not, if you love what you do or you just enjoy the process of working and sometimes find it hard to draw the line between work life and life life, this episode is for you.

All right, let's get into it. Welcome to the Makeshift Happen podcast.

I'm your host, Samantha Daly, entrepreneur, life coach, and your no BS bestie, here to bring you all things mindset, manifestation, and personal development.

This podcast is designed to help you expand your mind and uplevel your life.

So turn the volume up and roll the windows down if you're coming along for the ride.

Let's go make shift happen. Welcome back to the show, Jazz. You are a seasoned guest on Makeshift Heaven Podcast. It's always a pleasure to have you. There has been many, many changes in your life since the last time we've done an episode, so I'm excited to have you back and chat about all the things.

Welcome. Thanks so much for having me. I love coming back here in this community. It's always such an aligned space, so I'm pumped to have this conversation today. It's going to be great.

Yay! Okay, so we're gonna dig into like workaholism, sabbatical, your kind of like journey over this past year, your Saturn return. It's been hitting you over the head, hitting you hard, but I know that you probably have lots of lessons and learnings and things that are going to be really, really valuable for for the women that listen to this podcast, especially those that are entrepreneurs building businesses in the online space. So I'm really excited to have this conversation and grateful to you for being so open and honest and willing to share your experience to help other people. And I know that's a large part of your mission moving forward is to really support founders in their businesses because the emotional side and the mental side and all of that. It truly is a roller coaster. I've said that from day one. Entrepreneurship is a motherfucking roller coaster, and don't we know it. So I want to, I want to just start with a question. Like, if you were to think back to like 6 months to a year ago, maybe even, what did you know was true but you just refused to acknowledge it? Like, what, what was the truth that was like looming for you but you were like, I'm not ready to face that truth.

Uh, it's very clear now that I was depressed, like that I was clinically depressed. And I think the reason that it was so hard for me to understand was because I didn't know why I was feeling the way that I was feeling, and I thought that I had to understand that in order to admit it, do anything about it, uh, make a move on it. And it's funny you mentioned 6 months ago, because 6 months ago was end of financial year here for us. And, um, we— I had a— was having a conversation with my accountant doing my taxes. And he said, you know, do you feel like the low state, mental state that you're in— which was the only words that I was willing to say, I was not willing to use the word depressed at all— do you think that that was why your business financially started to— I don't want to say like dwindle because it's not that we weren't making money, it's just that I was not managing the money correctly. And so it felt way worse than what it actually was. And he said, you know, do you think that it was the low energy or the low mental state that you're in that has triggered this, or do you think that you had this and then that's therefore what triggered the, just to put it quite frankly, just the shitty way I was managing the finances in the business. And I think still to this day, I'm not quite sure. I'm still figuring that out of like, you know, chicken or the egg really. Like it's really that sort of energy for me. But I think it was this idea that like I had to heal it quickly, I had to, understand it before I could do anything about it, that it wasn't bad enough. Um, but I think I did know at the end of the day that there was something off, but I'd never experienced depression before, so it was just this new thing for me and I fully didn't understand. I mean, there, there was all also, you know, so many moments Even personally, I actually went to Harry Styles with Laurie, who I know is your assistant, and she was working with me as well. And she was in Sydney, she had a spare Harry Styles ticket, and it was in the kitchen, which if you've been to a Harry Styles concert or you know anything about that, is in the middle of the stage, on the ground in the middle. Best seats in the house. You basically have a better view than fucking Harry does. Amazing. And I was standing there and I felt like nothing, like I didn't really feel any like high vibrational emotions. And I knew that I had been experiencing that. So that was in March of this year. I knew I— something wasn't quite right, but I hadn't been able to fully understand it. And it wasn't until I was in a stadium of 100,000 people, and especially as someone who is a creative and is a musician, and like at one point in my life this was my one and only dream, was to like be on a stage like that, to not feel anything. For me, I was like, okay, something's wrong, something's not right. Um, so I had a lot of moments over the last year, I would even say 18 months, where I started to see that, yeah, things just weren't— that my mental state and my ability to feel high vibrational emotions, and also the intensity of the low vibrational emotions, but I did ignore it for a really long time and just didn't think that it was bad enough. But what I've learned is that that's what depression does, is it tells you that it's not actually that bad, that you're actually kind of crazy. Even now, I've started with a new therapist literally last week, and I still think— there's still moments where my brain tells me Oh, you're kind of just making this up. It's not as bad as what it seems. And yet, like, it is bad. My doctors have said it's not good. Like, you need help. You need help. So yeah, it's been a really interesting ride over the last year.

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So I want to go back a little bit because obviously there was a large period of time between you having some of those early signals and clues of knowing that something was wrong, and then you actually going to do something about it, to step back from work, to get into therapy, or really, you know, own the fact that, hey, this may be depression. So take us through, like, if you could just kind of summarize what that journey was like.

What was the breaking point?

Like, what was the point where you were like, absolutely no fucking more. Like, because originally you're like, it's not bad enough, it's not that bad, I can just keep going, I can just keep pushing. But then at some point it was like, I, I can't keep moving like this anymore. So what was, what was that like, that point where you knew something has to change drastically?

Yeah, I think that there was two, and one was just before the sabbatical. Um, I don't know what exactly happened, but I just remember being in my kitchen. So I took the sabbatical from through August and September of this year, so it would have been in like July. It was probably just after— now that I think about it, it was probably just after I spoke to my accountant, and I was really starting to yeah, realized that things just weren't working. And I was standing in my kitchen and I was cooking dinner for me and my fiancé, and I was just sitting there and I asked myself, like, okay, I know I don't feel good. When I saw my accountant check in on me, because he obviously has like a duty of care, especially as an accountant, to make sure that people 'Cause obviously money can be a really big trigger for mental health. And like, I'm so grateful that I didn't even know I was working with an accountant that really held that ethic and moral. And I think I just, it played on my mind, I think for a couple of weeks. And then I was sitting there making dinner and I asked myself, okay, if I had all the money in the world, if money was not an option, and was no object, and, you know, take everything that— and every responsibility and every logical, you know, answer out of the way. What would I do right now to get better? And the answer was so clear to me. I would do like an Eat, Pray, Love. I would fuck off to like Bali and Italy and just vibe and be by myself and relax and do a lot of inner work. You know, I would reconnect back to my spirituality, and I would really take the space and time to do that. Now, context: I got engaged in June, and I'm getting married in March. So for me to take time off work just really feels like the dumbest fucking thing in the world. Like, it it feels like an irresponsible decision. And I finally, when he got home, when my fiancé got home that night, I spoke to him and I said, look, I think I need to take time off. Like, something needs to change. I don't know what it— I don't know how we do this, but this is like, if money was no object, this is what I would do. And what's really interesting is that Um, I actually supported him through a sabbatical, I want to say in 2021, of his own, because he was just struggling a little bit. He was really burnt out with work, and, you know, he needed that space. And I totally supported us both through that process financially and like emotionally and everything. And he was like, you should totally do it. And it was within 10 minutes of having that conversation and just sharing that desire that he was like, absolutely. And what came out was that he was actually really worried about me and that it was actually more stressful for him going to work I mean, he works like 3 days in the office, 2 from home. It was more stressful for him not being in the house, and he was worried about me, and it was affecting his life because he's like, I don't know how you're going every single day. I'm kind of worried. Because what would— what was happening was like the days that he wasn't here, I would call him like crying about something. It was like every weekend I was just having a mental breakdown about something about the business, something about my life, something about how I was feeling. All of these like heavy, deep, shadowy emotions were just a lot. And so for him, he was like, I love the idea that you just take some time and I know you're taking care of yourself because right now I know you're not, you know. And that to me kind of gave me the permission to be like, okay, I'm not crazy, someone else is seeing this, you know, whatever. And it was within 10 minutes of that conversation that I'd made the decision. Um, it wasn't easy. I like— it was really hard. Um, but it was something that I knew I had to do. And, you know, I think the next day I had a conversation with my team and told them we're gonna be closing things down, and I don't know when you're coming back, um, but when I do come back, you'll be on the team. But go find other work, and, you know, at least for 2 months, you know, that I'm not going to need you because we're going to shut everything down. And even through having those conversations, I remember like having that conversation with my OBM and going and straight afterwards like having to do like a full like somatic hug with Dan because my anxiety like was so just overwhelmed by the idea of not working, which, you know, originally was why I took the time off. That was kind of like the first layer was dealing with the workaholism because I think even then I still was like, oh yeah, I probably have like a little bit of low-lying depression. Like, that's kind of what I had said to myself. It was more like, I'm burnt out, um, you know, I'm— I know— I knew I was— I had an addiction to work and a problem with using work to cope, um, and so that was kind of like the first thing that I did was just take that, look at that onion layer, um, and the sabbatical was really there for me to just detach my worth and my value from my ability to earn, my ability to provide. You have to understand that, like, I've never been in a relationship with someone that earns more than me. I've never not worked since I was 5 years old. I've never— like, work has been my, my everything. It's how I got validation. It's how I got external and internal validation. It wasn't just an external thing, you know, it was, it was something that I deeply felt like gave me purpose and value. And I knew that that needed to be unpicked. But what I didn't know at that time though was unpicking that would then mean that when I did come back to work, there would be even more of a, uh, I've discovered even more since coming back. Like, I would say that's— that, that part was the easy part. The last month, 6 weeks have been really intense. And I think it's because the sabbatical worked. I don't have the same relationship to work as what I did before. I feel really good about it. Um, my worth is not tied up— like, that actually really healed quite quickly. But now that I don't have that thing anymore, now I'm left with what's really wrong. And that's, you know, a lot.

Yeah. And I definitely want to get into like your journey through the sabbatical and coming back and like all of that, but I want to go back to this idea of workaholism because for the entrepreneurs who are listening, obviously, you know, I think there's— to become an entrepreneur in the first place, you have to be like a really passionate person who you love something enough to want to make it your whole mission in life and to deal with all of the extra challenges and struggles and pressures, uh, an increase in responsibility and all of that of entrepreneurship. Like entrepreneurship online looks really sexy, but once you get into it, you realize that it's a lot. It's a lot of pressure. It's a lot of, you know, you have to be really emotionally intelligent. It's there, there's a lot. So in order for someone to choose that and to continue to endure that and, you know, go, yeah, this is my path and this is what I wanna do. I think you have to be, you really have to give a shit about what you're doing in the world and, and the work. And so then for a lot of entrepreneurs, there is this experience of workaholism and kind of like that fine line there of like, where does the passion turn into an obsession or a compulsion? And I've thought about this for myself because I also have that kind of personality where I, love to work, and I do get a lot of internal and external validation out of what I'm able to produce and how I'm able to help people and, and all of that. So I would like for just for people to kind of give more context if they're like, I have no— I'm not a workaholic, and, and they think that. I, I'd love for you to kind of paint the picture of what workaholism looked like for you, because you only know your experience, but like, what did it look like to use work to cope, as you said? Like, how did that show up, like, on a day-to-day basis?

Yeah, I'll speak to how it showed up for me because I think my story is very powerful, and I've realized just how powerful it was because I've shared it since coming back. And Yeah, I'm still receiving a lot of messages from— I did like a free Instagram Live thing over 3 days, and like people are still finding those videos, which I just think is insane. Like, that's not how the algorithm should work. So obviously what I shared was really powerful. So there's that resource, it's on my Instagram and there's a link in my bio. It's called The Simplicity Files. And I also did a podcast episode on workaholism, like 'How do you know the difference between, like, loving what you do and, and having an addiction to what you do?' And I think it's so important for entrepreneurs to understand where that line is and to also understand that research shows that, like, a lot more people are addicted to work and have a clinical addiction to work than what we give them credit for. It's something that's actually really rife and we need to pay attention to it because an addiction is not a good thing to have. Um, it will suck the life out of you. And as somebody who can sit here and say it has, um, it's really important that especially as an entrepreneur, you are aware of where you sit on that spectrum. And yeah, it's just really important. So that's the first thing that I would say, and those are resources that you can go to that I have, um, to help you figure that out even more. But what I'll share now is, you know, for me it's always been something that's very sneaky. And the reason it can be sneaky, not just for me but for everybody, is because the only line between being addicted to work and loving your work is what we call compulsion. So if you have a compulsion to work, and a compulsion means that you don't have— you have a limited amount of free will over whether you do something, basically. So for me, and also I will say that workaholism, the actual definition is very simple. It's a compulsion to work and to work very long hours. So like, you know what I mean? Like, it's very simple. So I think a lot of people probably are addicted to work in some degree. I think probably 90% of the world are, but obviously it's only a problem like until it's creating a problem in your life. So I do want you everyone to be gentle as you, as you kind of hear this. So for me, it was my coping mechanism. That was my first red flag. And even though, you know, I took this sabbatical only just a couple of months ago. I have been aware of my addiction to work for about 2-3 years. It's something that I'd been working on, but the thing is about an addiction is it can kind of sneak up behind you. Think about people who are alcoholics and then they go to rehab and then they come out and they're sober for 3 months and then they relapse. What usually happens is they don't go and binge drink. Sometimes that happens, but they'll just have one drink at an event. What's one champagne? And then 3 weeks later they're having 2 champagnes, and then a week later it's a bottle of champagne, and then before you know it they're in the same cycle again. And that's how addiction works. So for me, I had a really good grasp on my work on being a workaholic, but the reason I'm a workaholic is because I use it to cope. So when things aren't going well for me personally, professionally, mentally, emotionally, work is the thing that I lean into because, um, to put it quite frankly, like, usually if I try to do something, I usually succeed. Like, work has never really let me down. Like, if I put my mind to something, I just— it— I work hard and I, and I get it, it happens. I just don't stop until it happens. So I knew that there was an issue because I was feeling really burnt out. I was feeling overly attached to my business. I wasn't trusting my business, so it was almost like I was micromanaging my team. 100%. I was getting really, like, not angry at them, but sort of like bitter and like, oh, they're not doing this right, they're not doing that right. And I wasn't communicating those things, like, I just wasn't leading in a really great way. And that over-attachment was my first sort of like warning sign of like, oh, something's happening. But also I was just extremely burnt out. I was overworked, um, and Yeah, it just was not— I wasn't happy. I wasn't happy. And I think for me too, because I was using it to cope, I wasn't making informed logical decisions. And so therefore I wasn't getting the successes that I normally got. And then that snowballed because then I was just trying to— then I was making shitty decisions to try and get some, some little win. I was making un— like I put readings back up. I retired readings like a year before, over a year before I'd done that, you know, but that was like, it was a scarcity move because I just was like, well, if I work then it'll be fine, and it wasn't. So I kept on making unaligned decisions, irrational decisions, spending money in ways that I shouldn't have been spending it, all to keep this work thing going. Because of one— and honestly, like, it all started because I had one, like, $9,000 month. Like, that's literally how it started. And I freaked out, freaked out, because the month before that was like $20K or something or whatever. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I just flipped out. And it just kind of snowballed slowly but surely from there. And it just— I was just in full freakout mode. And the workaholism is like, perfect, now I have this thing that I can— now she needs this addiction, now the coping mechanism can thrive. But also, it's weird because it was also kind of like starving as well, because it wasn't working. The work wasn't giving me the dopamine hit. And to me, like, the spiritual side of me also knows that like that was God saying like, this vice is done. Like, this is done. I'm not going to let your work protect you any longer. And I think, you know, I, I— 2 years ago, or, you know, 18 months ago, I decided real— like, I made a lot of decisions. Um, I decided I wanted to be a mother. Like, that was something that I was sure I wanted to do in this lifetime. Um, you know, I— Dan and I had really decided that we wanted to get married and we wanted to— like, I wanted to be a wife. Like, there were big things that I decided that I wanted. And I know looking back now that those— like, God sent me this, said, okay, your vice isn't gonna work anymore. Like, imagine if the alcohol just stopped alcoholing, you know?

Yeah. Well, that's what happens. And then you need more and more to the point where you can't function anymore. And then you hit the rock bottom and you realize, oh, the, you know, the coping isn't coping. I'm now dying, essentially. So the same thing happened for you. Yeah. And I love that connection that you made because it's so real. It feels rude, but the— how the universe does that, but it's so real. It's like when you decide that, all right, this is what I want. Then it's like, okay, well, now we need to remove all the things that are going to prevent you from being able to have that. And obviously, you know, you're not going to be able to be a happy wife and a loving mother if you are treating your work like a crack pipe, and, you know, you just need it to solve all of your problems or to be able to feel better.

Exactly, exactly.

I think for, for people, like, from a tangible perspective. Um, you know, obviously you mentioned like your energy kind of changing and making some irrational decisions and maybe being a little bit like more snappy with your team because there's frustration and all of that. Were you working like, like, give me, give me a bird's eye view of like, are you working until 2 in the morning? Are you working all day every day? Do you like not work at all and then randomly when you're like, all right, I need to feel better, you whip out your laptop and you're like, new offer, and then you like sit down for 10 hours and try to whip something up? Like What did it look like tangibly?

Yeah, for me it was definitely like a little bit of the latter because the depression— again, I can only say this in hindsight— because the depression was slowly kind of creeping in as well. Um, it was laying on the couch, like literal, like hoodie up, like goblin mode, and then like frantically putting things out, um, to make money or It wasn't even to make money. It was even just to like be seen doing the thing. Like sometimes, like, yeah, sure, it was about money, but it was like, it was a lot of that. I think also it was, um, a lot of like, I think it was like a combination of everything that you said. Like someday it was just erratic. So some days it's like I'm working all day, I'm working till 2 o'clock in the morning, my eyes are like bleeding basically from looking at this thing. It was setting really big goals with way, like, too little of a time to accomplish those goals. So it's almost like I was setting myself up for failure. But my brain, the addict brain, says, well, if I accomplish this thing, like, that's the hit. It's like, oh, I did this thing really fast. It was, yeah, like, frantically putting out offers. It was, like, literally all of the above. And what it ended up looking like on the other side of that was a really poor qual— like, my relationship was suffering, my friendships were suffering. I mean, I don't have a lot of friends as it is. I have a really small circle. I like it that way. But like, I had not reached out to my friends. Um, I didn't have, you know, a super great— um, I always have a great connection with my family, but like we were fighting more, like I was being more argumentative. Like, it's just because I was just deeply unhappy because like it wasn't feeding me and it wasn't helping me cope because I wasn't getting like the successes every single day. But what's really interesting though is like we were obviously still like— I was still signing clients, I was still doing well, but like the heart, like the high that you get from that was like, that was the only time I was feeling good. Like, I didn't feel good unless I was getting a sale or I was getting a like. There was a lot of comparisonitis for the first time in my life. I was comparing myself to people. It was fucking so weird. I'm just like, not that way. You've known me for a long time. Like, that's just not me. I just run my own race, blinkers on. Like, you fuck with me or you don't. And that was gone. Um, I was just so deep in that addiction to work that it almost was like it was never going to be enough. And then because it's work, you're burnt out, like, because you're not sleeping and you're not thinking straight and you're not— like, it's just all-consuming. But it was work all day, every day. Every single thing I think about every— it's everything. It consumed every thought in my brain.

So even when you're not working, I imagine that— and this, I mean, I think I experienced this myself sometimes too. Like, when you're not working, you're just like thinking about working. Not like, oh, I wish I could be working right now, but you're thinking about all the things that you need to do or should do or could do. Or maybe you feel bad that you're like, oh, I could be getting a head start on that thing, or I, I've got a big to-do list I could getting a jump on that when you're— so it's almost like even when you're not working, your brain is trying to get you to work.

Yeah, and I think that's somewhat normal, right, for entrepreneurs. You know, we kind of walk through the world with our businesses really front of mind, and whether we realize it or not, we're constantly picking up on the things that we see. And, and you should be doing that, like, that's, that's great for innovation, like, that's really important. But when it gets to the point where you can't control the thoughts, and that's the thing, it's like, it's the compulsion. It's like you cannot slow down, or if you slow down— whenever I slowed down, I would be crying or asleep, or like, that, that's it. Like, it— that, that was it.

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I got 3 modes: work, cry, sleep. Like, literally. So that's not normal. You should be able to go out with your friends or, you know, whatever. Like, I even remember— and this might be like oversharing, but like, whatever— but like, I couldn't even be intimate with my partner unless all these things were done. Like, I wouldn't even allow myself to do something like that. I wouldn't allow myself to go and sit at the beach unless everything was done. That, that sounded like a shitty plan to go to the beach and go on a nature walk and sit there with my fiancé, who I'm obsessed with and I'm in love with, rather than work on my laptop at home. That's, that's weird. That's not, that's not normal, you know. And I know that we all have responsibilities, but it wasn't whether there was a responsibility or not, it would just be something. And obviously you also, when you're in this mode too, you create it, you create a business. That is unsustainable because its unsustainability feeds your addiction. Because if my business was sustainable, why the fuck would I need my addiction? What is my addiction gonna do? So yeah, you end up— that's why I said it's very sneaky.

Yeah, you make those irrational decisions and you do stupid shit and you put random stuff out and because you're trying to get that like hit, that validation, and then it fuels that cycle of like, well, this isn't sustainable and so now it's not going to work next month and so we have Do, do a new thing over here. And so then your addiction gets to just keep living and thriving because the business is chaotic, as you said. Yeah. Yeah. So you make the decision, you have that conversation with your accountant, and then you're thinking about it like, man, that was like, this must be like a legit thing if my accountant is like asking me about my mental health. So you ponder that for a while and then you're like, right. I, if I really wanted to take care of myself, I know for a fact that I would stop working. And then you make that decision, you let go of your team. Talk to us about the experience of like entering into the sabbatical era. Was there like resistance at first? Did it feel like fucking amazing to like wake up and be like, I'm free? Like, were you bored to tears? Like, what did you do? Like, what did you, what did you get up to? What was the experience of not working for 2 months?

Yes. So the first 2 weeks were— no, I want to say the first month was hard, was really hard. There was a lot of anxiety. And when I say anxiety, I don't just mean like anxiety, like I have anxiety, like that's something I've really struggled with really badly for like my whole life. The anxiety was horrific. I felt useless, I felt purposeless, I felt bored, I felt scared, I felt like I didn't even know who I was. I felt like I was discovering myself, and that's when it started to kind of get a little bit better.

Because you were, you were off socials. You were off socials as well too. So it was like no working, no clients, no calls, no creations, no social. You basically just live your life, whatever that means.

Whatever that means. That's go for a fucking walk.

Yeah, but the days are really long when that's the only thing on your to-do list.

Exactly right. And you know, I knew, so To put this into context, I knew as well that it would be, uh, difficult. I knew that I was an addict and that by removing this thing, I was basically going through it, going to go through a detox period. And I only knew this because when I was 21, I traveled for a year, and that was the first time that I stopped working, and I hated it. I hate it. I did the Euro trip, backpack around Europe. I came back from that trip and wanted to put myself in a mental institution, literally. That's not even a joke, that's actually true. I really struggled, and one of the things that I struggled with on that trip is I remember calling my mom saying, "I feel like I'm a bag of bones walking around the world looking at shit." it was the first time in my life that I hadn't worked. So I knew, and now because I'd worked with my workaholism even up into this point, I had an understanding that the reason why that was so tough is because I didn't know I was a workaholic and then I just stopped working. Like, and I didn't have, also didn't have the tools that I have now, you know, I was 21. So I kind of knew something like that was gonna happen.. So I made sure that I had people in my corner. I had my hypnotherapist. I had, um, I also employed an EFT practitioner, Danny Lent, shout out, he's amazing, to do private EFT tapping with me once a week throughout the sabbatical. Um, and I did have a plan of actually going and getting like a talk, like to do talk therapy, but just the way that the medical system in Australia just worked out, I didn't end up getting that conscious piece. But my plan was to have someone to support me consciously, subconsciously, and somatically. 'Cause I was like, I'm fucking kicking this shit. I'm done. I got 2 months, let's go. We're done. So I was really lucky that I had that. And this is something that I even mentioned in that podcast episode that I did. Was like, don't fucking— if you think you're a workaholic and you're relating to anything I say, don't just think that going on a sabbatical is gonna fix it. You need to do that, but you're gonna go through a detox period, and you would not take— like, it's dangerous. Like, if I didn't have that, my depression could have taken over. Like, it's dangerous. You need to fully understand that. So I had them there and that made that detox period bearable because I had things to do. I had appointments, I had, um, homework that they were giving me that I could do. So I really dedicated that first like 2 to 4 weeks of really just healing. And what ha— it was almost like night and day. Like, I woke up and I just sort of noticed, like, I want to go to the beach. And I want to— and I remember Dan and I went down to this beach, which you have to, like, trek all this stuff for. And if you know me, like, that's not my vibe. Not an outdoorsy girl. Not an outdoorsy girl. And I was like, let's go to— it's called Lobster Beach. I was like, let's go to Lobster Beach. I had to trek up this whole thing. And I'm, like, trekking up. And I made him, like, I cut up some watermelon and we bought cards, playing cards, and we sat down there and the water was freezing because it's September, but we had a couple of hot days, but that's still basically winter. So the water's fucking so cold, literally take your breath away cold. And I'm getting in the water and doing all these things and laying in the sun and just being so present.. And I was like, oh my God, I am doing it. I'm doing, I'm living without work. And it felt really great. And I think for me, the turning point, the biggest turning point was, uh, another reason why I took the sabbatical, which really just kicked me over the edge, was, um, my dad's best friend passed away. He's the same age as my dad and he passed away really suddenly and quite traumatically as well. And it really rocked my family and his family, and his kids are the same age as me. It just really put a lot of shit into perspective about what's important. And so my dad had just been dealing with and grieving and he spoke to me about how he was feeling towards the end of the sabbatical. And, you know, he— there was so— there was a part of me that was like, oh, I wish I could just like give him some money so he didn't have to work, he could just like relax, or, or pay for this thing. That's how I used to help my family, like that's what I did is I would buy my mom the new stove that she wanted, or I would, you know, I was going to take my mom to Europe before COVID hit, and like, that's what we were going to do. And like, you know, that's just always how I've shown my love. My like love language is gift giving. Like, I love it. And for the first time, I was like, I caught myself like wanting to like pay for something to make it better, and I couldn't. I didn't. I hadn't been earning for 2 months. I'm gonna get married. Like, I can't just I can't just give my dad a couple grand. It's just not the vibe. And then I was like, "Oh, that doesn't even matter. He wouldn't even want that. He just wants me to be there." And that moment in my brain of seeing my value, seeing the value of me sitting next to him breathing as more of a value than anything that I could ever buy him or give him or make easier. For him, provide, do no action, just be next to him and breathe. That's all he needed. And that, having that thought to me and it feeling so real and true was like, oh, I've kicked this, it's done, you know. Like, I would have— my brain just would have never thought that way ever. That was a new neural pathway.. And that to me was like, oh my God, I, I did it. And that's how my sabbatical ended, really. That, that realization came through probably in the last 2 weeks. And so when I returned to work, I really came back with like a whole new energy, and I'm really proud of how I see work. I am not willing to falter on that now.

Yeah. So let's talk about the journey back in to work and You know, you have said that this is probably the hardest part, which I think, you know, if we're talking about addictions, um, a work addiction is kind of similar to a food addiction in that it's something that you can't not do. It's something that you can't not have, right? It's not like an alcohol or a drug where it's like, all right, well, now you're just going to live the rest of your life and never touch that thing. Like eventually you have to touch work again. And if you have a food addiction, like you got to eat or else you're going to die, right? So it's one of those weird ones where you have to coexist with it and you do. It's almost like trying to teach an alcoholic how to just have one drink. Like it's very challenging. It would be extremely challenging, I can imagine. So when you initially— did you feel excited to come back or were you like, all right, I feel like I'm ready. Really changed a lot in my mindset and feeling more alive. Was it an excitement or was it like, oh no, my 2 months are up? I said that I would start working again.

I think it was a little bit of both, to be quite honest. I was excited to come back and share my story. I knew that what I'd gone through was really— it was going to help people in a way that I know that they probably won't even fully admitting to themselves or definitely not sharing with people around them. I knew that the stories that I had to tell from that time and, you know, the other thing I didn't mention too is, you know, I did a lot of praying, I did a lot of faith work. I mentioned this in The Simplicity Files, but it's like I did a lot of, I got a lot of clarity on where I wanted to take my business. It was clear to me that where my business had been, like, that's kind of done. And where I'm going is, is this kind of new mission and this new direction that's an evolution of where I've been. And it's not something that people won't come along with me. It's not like I'm changing niches altogether, but it definitely feels different. Um, so there was an excitement around that. I felt really charged by that, and I still do feel so, uh, secure. And actually, for the first time in my life, I can really say that this feels like the work that I'm here to do. Like this, there's a longevity. I can see that this mission is probably gonna take me at least 10 years to really be with before I shift into something new and something different.

Everything else was kind of like a stepping stone to get to this, and you're like, this is the thing.

The thing. And like I said, I mean, I'm a Gemini. Like, it's never gonna be just one thing, but this thing feels, I'm so connected to my intuition around it now. So I was just— I know it's going to be at least 10 years on this mission. Um, yeah, which feels really exciting. And so I was really pumped to do that. But did I feel completely ready to come back? No, to put it frankly, no. I did wish I had another month.

What were your biggest fears around that? Like, what, what were the reasons why you didn't maybe feel like you wanted to come back yet?

I was worried that I, I felt so good. I felt really, really good, and it just didn't want to— I just didn't want anything to fuck with it.

But it has, and here we are, you know what I mean?

Like, we gotta work, baby. Like, she's getting married in 4 months. Like, it's time, you know? Like, And you know, I did toy, and I'm still toying with the idea of, do I put this business as a side hustle for a moment and take some pressure off it? I'm still figuring that out to go, how do I find a sustainable way? And you know, it's funny you mentioned what you mentioned about like, you know, just have one drink. 'Cause Dan said a very similar thing to me. He's like, you need to not go hard. Think about it like quitting smoking. You quit smoking, the first 2 weeks you want to fucking die. All you can think about is a cigarette. That was exactly what happened. And then you're like, oh my god, I can breathe and I can smell and I can taste, and oh my god, it's amazing. And then, you know, you're like, okay, maybe I can go and have a drink now because when I drink, you know, I usually want to smoke, but I think I feel good about it. But if you go back to the pub with your mates too quickly or with the wrong mate, or you stay out a little bit too late, you're probably gonna have a cigarette, you know, and that's fine. But if you're not aware, you're, you're gonna just, you're gonna get back into the addiction again. So I came back and I'm still on this protocol at the moment. I'm doing like 2 to 3 days a week and calling it at that. I'm working at a coworking space, so I'm not working um, at my house anymore. Any deep work is not done.

So you kind of have to like pack up and leave at some point.

Yep.

There's hours.

Look, when I start and when I finish. So there's things like that that have been really good. But what's been interesting and why it's been really hard, um, well, let me just say this first before I, before I go into that. Um, you know, I, I I had that feeling of I did want to have a little bit more time. Uh, I wonder if I'd asked for a bit more time. Yeah, I wonder if I'd asked for a little bit more time, I would have gotten it, or just shared that. But I didn't feel— I started to feel like I was a bit of a burden and that I needed to pull my weight. And I think there's a little bit of that is the workaholism, but I think that's also real. And also, well, now it was definitely some of the depression, that burden stuff, that's depression. So I think that kind of fueled me into going in and has now colored the experience that I'm having now as I'm back. And I, and I even mentioned to my audience, I was like, look, I'm not better, but I'm okay now, and I am okay enough to serve and to share.

2 to 3 days of work a week, but you've been— have you been good with your boundary on that, or have you crossed over into let me do more land?

Sometimes. For sure. I'm catching it and am intolerant of it. So I'm making sure, like, uh, for example, um, I am making sure that other people are aware of that, that goal. So, you know, my partner's aware, my parents are aware, my friends are aware, and so they can sort of pull me up on it if they notice me sort of, you know, overworking those things. I think the biggest struggle for me now is like, because I don't have, uh, I have no desire to use work to cope, I have no desire to fuck up this balance. And because I'm so steadfast on that, the shadow and the depression and all of those things and the anxiety and my mental health has actually plummeted, which has been quite interesting because there's nothing to—

there's nothing to cover it up with.

No.

So it's like you just really have to like see it and own it.

Yeah. So I'm like, you know, to be completely transparent, you know, I'm dealing with what I can only call as episodes, um, where I'm having like full body experiences. Um, I'm, you know, my sleep has been really bad. Um, my dreams have been really intense. Um, yeah, they're these, these— I'm shaking and convulsing. Sometimes I even vomit. Like, it's like a full-on thing. And for the last couple of, like, probably for the last 3 months or 2 months, I was like, what the fuck is going on? I've had experiences like this fall like once before, but not to this level. Like, this is like really intense. And, um, what I've realized is that because I have taken away that addiction, all that's left is the trauma that the addiction was helping. And so finding a way to do business as a founder and as an entrepreneur and as a mentor, like providing an incredible service like, and not dealing with that. There are so many founders that do that. There are so many founders that hold their trauma and just go, well, that, that doesn't affect my work, or that's not connected to my work, or whatever. And I think for me, what I've realized is that it's, it's been so important for me to get like the real help that I need and deserve, and I am exploring avenues that I have never— that I never thought that I would explore before. I'm just at this point now with my mental health where it's like, if I don't look at this, I can't be a founder. If I don't look at this, I can't be a wife. If I don't look at this and heal it and truly heal it, I'm not going to be able to be a mother, like, at all, let alone a good one. So this is the thing about foundership that I'm so passionate about now, because there are so many founders out there who are struggling personally under the weight of their business and the responsibility of it. And have put that either to the side or have used their business to cope. And I know that my potential as a founder, my potential for impact is— I have not even, I have not even scratched the surface because of this unresolved trauma, which I'm not being facetious here, I don't know what it is. Like, I, I'm in therapy right now figuring out what this is, why I'm having these— my anxiety is like fully like physical because it's like, oh my God, you haven't looked at this, I don't know for how long. And so what I always like to end a share like that with, like, is that like, for anyone listening, like, is there anything that you are not looking at because I can tell you right now it's affecting your ability to work, to love, to relationship, to impact in the way that your soul came here to do. So even now that I've peeled all these layers back and all I'm left is with this like ugly trauma that is like so fucking inconvenient, and all I want to do is just work a couple days a week and slowly come back and just be fucking normal, but that's not the case. And so I'm so excited to work through it and get a handle on it, because if I've been working with this and I've achieved what I've achieved— yeah, my mom reminded me yesterday, like, even though you've had this your whole life, you have been so successful.

Yeah, so imagine, imagine what is gonna transpire when you feel like this has fully been faced and healed and transmuted and, yeah, alchemized.

Like, I was gonna say, you know, what gets to happen when you, uh, what kind of founder you get to be when you do feel fully safe in your body? What kind of founder do you get to be when you do feel like you deserve love? What kind of founder do you get to be when you do like this deeply personal shit. Like, to think that it's not affecting my business, that's fucking insane. I am my business. Like, absolutely, you know. And regardless of whether you're a founder of, you know, like, you're like Sam and I where we're giving, like, we are the product, or you're, you're, you're a product-based business, you're an e-commerce business, you're the founder. It's your idea, it's your energy, like it's you. Your energetic imprint and signature is on that product no matter what it is. So you're not excused from that group either. Again, it comes back to this idea that like a founder can never be delegated. There can only ever be one founder. And when that founder quits, that business fails. And that's the other thing that I realized too is How many people, how many founders have quit and therefore businesses have gone under because of this? Because it's absolutely 100% affecting my ability to show up.

Totally. I think this is, you know, like, in terms of— well, you just look at the stats for like small businesses in general, but then, you know, to get a little bit more niche, obviously in our space it's like the online coaching space. But the statistics in general for like how many small— the percentage of small businesses that fail, like, I don't know what it is, It's like, it's like 80%. Yeah, yeah, it's very high. Um, and I, I, I agree with you. Like, I think if, if we were to really dissect like why those businesses failed, like yes, they could have made like poor financial decisions, they could have, um, you know, failed a product launch or whatever it was. Like all the things that you kind of were speaking about on your own journey of like things started to get a little bit chaotic, like not all the decisions were the best, like maybe you hire someone who's not the fit, maybe you overspend in employees or whatever. And it's like, yeah, from the outside, okay, that's the reason why the business went under or why they quit because it didn't make sense anymore. They were bleeding money, whatever. So they closed the doors down. It's like kind of holistic business, like holistic health would be all right, but like why? You know, like those are just the symptoms. You making bad financial decisions or overhiring or underhiring or whatever the fuck else. Those are the symptoms. What's actually happening inside of you that is causing the symptoms? And Alex Hormozi has a great quote to your point, which is like, you know, the only thing that inhibits a business's growth is the entrepreneur, nothing else, because everything starts from you. Yes.

And, you know, we aren't living in a time where it's a strategy problem. Because you can Google it for free. Like, as much as I love to talk about strategy, and I think that getting in a room with a coach or a consultant is great and you should do it, like, what you're hiring them for is, is speed. Because you could Google every single thing that that person is telling you, like, from a strategic perspective.

And like, how many people do you know that already have all those answers and they're not executing or not, you know, showing up for it because it's the personal problem that's getting in the way.

Yeah, because— and that's the thing is that's why businesses fail. It's like, well, why did you make that poor financial decision? And I can tell you, even when I look back at my clients who I know are no longer in business anymore, or, you know, they've become friends and people have shut down their businesses, it either happened because of a mental health thing— they, they were just feeling overwhelmed, they didn't know what they were doing, they didn't back themselves that could, you know, it's a personal mindset thing that they either couldn't or weren't willing to move through. Or the only other thing is, and this is probably like, this is a whole other conversation, but it's usually people shifting into motherhood. That's the only other reason why people shut down their businesses or their businesses fail. I'm not saying that they don't take off in the first place. I think that's a different problem. Um, but when your business, you know, fails, then, uh, it's usually because the founder— something within the founder's life— they get divorced, they go through a breakup, they, I don't know, have an addiction, they whatever. And so nobody's looking after founders in this way. There is not a space. I don't see anybody on the Net, who is truly coming from a space of they've actually been there and they're qualified to help and serve founders in the bespoke way that they need to be served. And you know, this is not my first failure. I said before, you know, I've, I've, you know, had so many successes and I don't usually fail. I still fucking failed. I've started a lot of shit and and it, you know, not had gone to plan, you know. Um, I failed a lot in my life, but I feel like there is something to be said about founder-focused work, and I believe that if founders could prioritize their shadow work their mental health, their connection to self, their value, their faith, that is going to strengthen your business from the fucking core. Like, that is the Pilates of like business. Like, you know how like grown men go to Pilates and they're like fucking struggling? Like, they're like gym junkies and they can't do fucking Pilates. That's the thing. Analogy, you know. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. It's so important because—

and this is the— and this is the new— this is the new mission. This is the— yeah, this is your thing where you're like, okay, like, all of that has led me here, and it makes sense, and it, you know, continues to be painful in certain ways, but like, it's also motivating and exciting and Yeah, like, I feel like you've— there's been a lot of things that you've been passionate about before, but like, this one feels so deep and so personal that it's like, this is the thing.

Yeah. And it's, it's funny how you mentioned before, it feels like the stepping stones, you know. I built that astrology business to multiple six figures, it was great, and then I shifted into business coaching, built that to multiple figures. That was great. And I thought that each of those things were going to be my thing. And then what I realized is, oh my God, like, there's no— like, now I get to utilize the past life regression, uh, certification and the hypnotherapy and the astrology and the breathwork, like all those things I did as an astrologer and a life coach. And now also as a business coach, like having just been a business coach predominantly really working with strategy alignment and all those types and sales and all those types of things, I can also now speak, I can obviously help people with that, but I say this to my, with my clients all the time, I can shoot the shit with you about strategy. Let's talk about that in Voxer. Let's do your fucking healing work and make sure that you're okay. Feel like founders really need that gap, that, uh, that gap bridged between like life coach and business coach. And that's why I've kind of dropped the coaching title now and stepped into mentor, because I'm utilizing my experience and I really want to put people— you, you bring me on your journey. I've been through so much. I've lived a million lives. I've been a musician. I've traveled the world. I've been a coach. I've been an astrologer. I've been a fucking I've been a salesperson at Mercedes-Benz. I've been a dance teacher. I've done a million fucking things. I'm just here as your expert on your journey. I can help you read that map better. I can help you make sure that you— I know where the water is. I know where the trees are. I know where the shade is. We're on your journey. We're on your path.

You're like, "Oh, there's a curve coming up here.

That one's a doozy." Yeah. "I've been here before. Go this way instead." way better, there's a shortcut that way. No, you're going to have to go through this one. Like, I'm a founder mental, like, that's what I'm— that's why I've been through what I've been through as an entrepreneur for the last 15 years. This is what the next iteration is about. And I think all the struggles that I've had personally, um, just fuel me, cuz I know I'm not the only one and nobody's talking about this. They're really not. I get DMs every day now. My DMs are blowing the fuck up ever since this, being like, "Oh, I struggle with this too, and I've been thinking about taking time off, but da da da da da, but I feel like this, but I feel like that." Every day I'm having conversations with people, but they're not posting about it. I look on their page and they're like, "How to make 6 figures in 6 days." And I'm like, you know what I mean? And I'm like, you're telling me you're bankrupt and you're struggling and you've got no clients. You know what I mean? Like, it's because there's shame. And so I hope that this conversation does pull the stigma away from like, you're the founders always having to be fucking hunky-dory. It's bullshit. It's hard. It's the hardest fucking job that there is out there in any company is being the founder.

Yeah, it's a roller coaster. I love this so much for you because I think exactly as you said, like, your— all of your experiences and everything have like teed you up perfectly to be the person to really, really support someone through this journey. And, you know, I— it, it just works out like that, right? Even like the hardest shit, on the other side you're like, oh, but like, I had to move through that to be the person that would be able to facilitate this type of impact and change and, and help, because you have been there. So thank you so much for sharing openly and vulnerably and just being super honest about the experience and your mental health and all of the twists and turns. I know that this conversation is going to help so many people out there, whether, you know, they feel like they might be addicted to their work or even as simple as, you know, they need some more boundaries in place, they need better work hours, they need to prioritize sleep, they need to prioritize their relationships. I think there's going to be a lot of people that come to some realizations from having shared this conversation. So thank you, Jazz, so much. So for, for any of our entrepreneurs and founders that want to check out your work and jump on the train, can you let them know where you are hanging out nowadays online, only 2 to 3 days a week, and where they can find, where they can find your work?

Yeah, so, um, best place to connect with me is on Instagram. It's @jazzboree, and we Recently just launched, um, the Esoteric Entrepreneur brand. So at the moment, that is just the podcast, um, my beautiful club, which is my membership, and then we also have one-on-one mentorship. But that is a brand that is going to be growing as a resource for founders to really connect back to not just their businesses and their mission, but also themselves, um, and get support. It's founder-focused support. So definitely go and follow that Instagram as well, it's linked in my bio. Um, and if you want to learn from me, if you love podcasts, I have my podcast of my own. It's called The Esoteric Entrepreneur, and we have the deep and philosophical conversations that founders crave about business and success. So come over there and have a listen, join the community. And if you do come over, make sure you DM me and tell me that come over from Makeshift Happen and Sam's World so I can know where everyone's coming from.

I like to just know, you know, I just like to know, you know, be in the— be in the— be in the know. Yes, it's always good. It's always cool also to see like where people find you from and to kind of be able to, yeah, have gratitude for those experiences and bringing new people into your spaces. I always like when people tell me, oh, I found you on this podcast. I always like send whoever the host was like, hey, like, people are finding me from your show, like, thank you so much. So yeah, I love that. Make sure if you're new to Jazz's world that you let her know that you're there and that you're following along and that you listen to this episode. Thank you so much. We will link everything for Jazz in the show notes for you guys. You can find her Instagram, her podcast, and all of the good stuff. And we will talk to you soon.

Bye!