Yasi Baiani: Optimizing Healthcare Integration

Absolutely. I think that the early stages, in some ways, so easy, but so hard, because you have a lot less to rely on when you're, you know, as an investor, you're looking to a growth company, you have a lot of data and traction you can rely on. And also the history of the company, which is extremely valuable. But as an early stage, you don't have a lot of that. So I think, but there's still the fundamentals are true. So I always look at the founding team. And I can speak a little bit about what aspects of that. I also look at the market size and also why that team is so qualified to do this work.

And now from San Francisco and the UCSF Rosenman Institute, the Health Technology Podcast with your host, Christine Winoto.

As a female founder, investor, and advisor, Yasi Baiani sets a standard for women across industry. Yasi started investing in health tech after realizing that money was not her only driver. Since then, she's helped to change millions of people's lives through radical technological innovations. Today, Yasi works at Pleo, a global solution for family-centered care. As the Head of Product Strategy and Innovation, Clio aligns product design with the company's overall vision. By providing end-to-end support for overburdened caregivers, Yasi sees how her products impact the lives of individuals and the healthcare system as a whole. In this episode, Yasi discusses the varying stages of startups, her journey into healthcare, and her role as a product person in healthcare. Here's our conversation.

Welcome, Yasi.

Thanks for joining me today.

Absolutely. It's my pleasure to be here with you.

It's been a crazy year with 2023. I feel— I can't believe it. It's been, you know, the ride with the COVID and here we are. A lot of, a lot of things happening in the caregiving world, like the benefit that a lot of the things that impacting a lot of the employee. But before we go there, I'd like to get your story, your journey that takes you where you are today.

Absolutely happy to share that. I think the way I think about myself is really a kind of product and strategy executive. who has been part of like various health tech companies. Started my journey in companies like Athena Health as a product leader, and then kind of different companies like Teladoc, Livongo, Fitbit, and most recently at a company called Clio, which is, as you mentioned, it is basically an end-to-end platform providing support for families and caregivers through their journey. We support families from kind of early stage of family creation and parenting all the way to giving, um, care for their, you know, older family members and adults, and also like kids with special needs. Um, but I mean, how did I start it and how did I end up here? It's a journey of itself. Uh, I grew up in Iran. I came to, to United States, um, from, you know, after my high school to get my of education here. And I landed actually in Silicon Valley. So when I landed here, I was just so fascinated by all the technology, all the entrepreneurs, any cafe I would go to, like entrepreneurs were pitching to VCs, going around Silicon Valley, seeing all these offices. And I was just so fascinated by the power of technology and what it can do. So that kind of was my initial gravitation towards technology. Um, after I finished my, um, bachelor's at UC Berkeley, I actually ended up going and did investment banking, which was a really fascinating kind of first job off of college for someone like me. As you can imagine, I was nothing like other investment bankers coming from Iran, being a woman. And it was just really interesting to kind of go through that journey, like flying in private jets, taking companies public. I worked in China, I was in New York quite a bit. And that whole experience was really fascinating. But despite all that, I soon learned that money will not be the only driver for me. And I really care about the mission and impact in my life. And I decided to kind of join VCs and start investing in health tech and technology companies. There, I also had really fascinating, you know, experiences seeing Twitter first rounds kind of landing on our desk. And this idea of communicating through 140 characters was really fascinating. And I was one of the people really advocating for us to invest in that company. We also was one of the early investors in Elon Musk Tesla at that point. So hearing him and his vision and what the electric cars are and will be early stage was a journey of itself, I would say, looking back at that. And then eventually, I kind of really— all seeing all of those and what are the possibilities that one human can really envision and things that sounds impossible draw me more and more towards kind of entrepreneurship and early-stage startups. And that's how I started a company when I was getting my MBA at Harvard. It was a health and fitness company. And then ultimately, I kind of ended up in this whole health tech fitness wellness category. And it's, it's been really amazing. And I think when I look back at all the companies I joined, and why what I enjoy the most is really the mission. You know, despite the investment banking experience that I really didn't feel home when I was there, being in health tech companies, being in technology companies, it really drives me because you can basically change millions of people's lives. through technology and through your innovation. And so that has been the kind of main driver for me.

From your experience, like working in investment banking and then being part of the investors investing all this really exciting technology companies, uh, what did you learn that you carry through now doing the work that you do?

Absolutely a lot. I would say even if I have to start my career again, I would still probably start from investment banking. First of all, like the kind of stamina you find in that job because the hours are long. Sometimes the asks are not necessarily the most rational, but you'll still do them because you want to support the team. So I think that, you know, building those soft skills were, you know, extremely valuable for me, but also the analytical and data-driven approach. So now over time that I'm a product leader and executive, I really brought that perspective to all of, you know, our decision-making. So we are very much customer obsessed and focused on what the market and customer needs and trying to solve that. But also we are very analytical. So we always look at the market opportunities. We also look at like data as guiding factor for our team. And I think a lot of that I have from investment banking. And honestly, it also helped my strategic thinking because I'm not just looking at what's the product or feature or capability to build for the consumer or end user. but I'm looking at the impact of that for the business and have that kind of strategic financial aspects and mindset. So I think it was extremely valuable. And also some of that experience through venture capital. I still do investment as an angel investor. I really enjoy that again, because of that, you know, excitement you get from early stage of innovation and something that's so unreal, and then you see it actually become multibillion-dollar company is just such a fascinating experience. But what I've learned at VC and all that kind of figuring out product market fit, how to build an early stage team, how to put that together, how does an investor evaluate all that, right? Because it's so hard at the beginning. All of that are experiences that now I still use on a regular basis, would I kind of use it as an investor myself, if I'm investing as an angel investor, or I'm using it as an operator, to think about and decide and guide strategic decision of the company for investing in new product line or new category. So I think all those skills are still pretty fundamental.

Yeah. So do you have like a framework? For example, if say somebody with an idea that come to you for an angel, especially when you're really early, I mean, what are the framework for you to use to make that decision?

Absolutely. I think that the early stages in some ways so easy but so hard because you have a lot less to rely on when you're, you know, As an investor, you're looking to a growth company, you have a lot of data and traction you can rely on, and also the history of the company, which is extremely valuable. But as an early stage, you don't have a lot of that. So I think, but still the fundamentals are true. So I always look at the founding team, and I can speak a little bit about what aspects of that. I also look at the market size, and also why that team is so qualified to do this. works. Like, what do they know and how are they approaching the problem that other people cannot approach it? But also just like the background of the founding team, kind of their approach. Are they people who can actually go through what's required to build a company? It is not easy to build a company and it's not for everyone. So I really try to spend that time and have that kind of psychological test, if you will, with the founders to really see if they're up for this game.

So I think you mentioned you started a company as well. So you mentioned like it's not for everyone. What— why is that?

I think it's just an extremely difficult journey. First of all, you're alone. At best, you have a small team, like you have your co-founder, you have a couple of people around you. It's very different than when you, for instance, join a growth, growth stage team, which I personally found myself really enjoy. Like you generally join a large team, you double your team, you build a team like that team aspect, you miss it early stages. There's a lot of ambiguity. ambiguity. There's a lot of different directions you can go with pretty much blank slate. So again, like, kind of discovering and paving the path through that ambiguity is not necessarily something that everyone has this skill. It requires a lot of stamina. And as you know, everyone say the high and low of entrepreneurship is really high. That psychological kind of roller coaster, again, is not for everyone because the highs are really high. Like, smallest thing can make the team really, really happy and founders really, really proud, but also smallest thing can kind of bring you down. But also, if you kind of think about, you know, the percentage of nos you hear from venture investors, from, you know, your clients, because early on no one really knows what's your product, what's your brand, for hiring, all of those, I think it requires special rigor to stick through it. And I truly believe, like, some of the most successful founders and anyone who can really actually stay with a company from early stage of starting it to growth stage and beyond They do have that stamina as like a kind of critical factor to be able to really basically blaze through everything that you—

I think the experience in investment banking helps too.

Yeah.

So tell us a little bit more about your role at Clio, and then what does it mean when you're a product person?

Yeah, absolutely. You know, product is a very interesting role. It's— I always say, in some ways, you have to be a unicorn. I just actually wrote an article about that, to be a product person, especially be a successful product person, because product sits in a very cross-functional function. I'm supposed to work with engineering on the kind of R&D side, with design, but also very much with the strategic and kind of business side of the house with commercial teams. And the expectation is the product teams can kind of craft and shape themselves based on the needs of the company. So when you say, what does that mean, part of it is what kind of company I'm part of, what are everyone else around me and their strengths and weaknesses, and how I should kind of craft myself to fit in and support the teams. If, for instance, I'm working with a CEO that is very product-driven, my role sometimes will be different than if I'm with a CEO that is very medical and clinical-driven and/or very commercial-facing and driven. So part of my role as a product leader is to kind of adjust myself to the team and make sure I can support them the best way. But generally speaking, my role in the kind of last decade has been a lot of time kind of coming up with crafting the strategy and executing on that strategy. And when I look at kind of my career, most of the roles I had, it has been new category creation, which I over time I realized I really enjoy that. So not only we are creating the product, but we are actually creating the category in the market, which is exciting, but also it has its own sets of challenges. For instance, when I joined Fitbit, you know, I was one of those early people who adopted wearables. So I was one of those weird people who had 12 or 13 wearables on my wrist testing different products. They all look big and ugly and clunky, but I really enjoy kind of collecting those data, shape my opinion about how these things actually can change not only people's fitness and wellness. I was, you know, interested in that, but a bit less. I was more fascinated by how does that actually fit into the healthcare system? And that continuous tracking was what really gravitated me towards wearables. And I actually— that was what I presented to Fitbit when I was presenting to them to get my job, like kind of bringing vision of how these tracking devices could impact healthcare system. And that's how I eventually got my job there to help them craft the strategy beyond just fitness and really expand the the kind of wellness strategy in the company, which was really fascinating. And I still believe, like, you know, some of that ended up being true, some hasn't, you know, um, because, you know, the still, you know, remote monitoring and having capability to track data became so fundamental in kind of health system. But also there's still a lot to be done, uh, both in terms of improving these technologies but also adaptability of them in the healthcare system. So kind of going back to your question of what is my role. Part of it is kind of crafting and laying that strategy. Part of it is making sure I build a team that can execute on that. They are complementary to each other, to the rest of the organization, but also are strong enough who can take the strategy and actually execute that and cross-functionally create a culture and environment that R&D can succeed, basically. Would it be the processes, the communication touchpoints, And to establish those for basically the team, not only my team, but also all the teams who work with us closely can succeed.

So in your role as a product, make sure that the product that was produced is the product that the company wants to sell, and the company figured out what customer they want, and that is what you deliver. Help us, like when you're telling a story about the Fitbit, that's not just about the wearable tracking. And I think there's still a lot of friction. Many of them is not— cannot be solved because technology limitation, people's behavior. What are the things that you learned from that lesson experience that now you trying to deploy Clio product that you learned from it?

Yeah, absolutely. I learned so much, um, at Fitbit. Was like really interesting, you know, um, opportunity. First of all, like Some of the small elements of design and product experience could actually have significant impact on adaptability of the product. So I'll just give you one example. Reminders to move was one feature that Fitbit has, like, early on. The research we did behind that was basically based on academic research. People who move between, like, 20 to 30 minutes for a few steps, about 200 steps, they actually really boost their metabolism, reduce their risk of cardiovascular diseases, and, you know, multiple other benefits. And people who don't is actually increasing all those risks. And when we look at our own data, we knew that not everyone actually moving regularly. Like, the pattern of our data showed that some people are, you know, doing their workouts, even like, you know, early adopters of, you know, wearables, and then they sit for very long bouts of time during the day. So the data, internal data support that makes sense, you know, the, you know, academic literature support that it makes sense to have something to get people moving more. But there was a lot of questions about if Fitbit users will use that because our assumption at that point was Fitbit users are already extra active people, like early days of the product. But we did a lot of iteration and testing and prototype that, you know, I remember my team and I were actually packing prototypes of our devices, sending to people's house to test different types of reminders, um, and, um, to see if it has the efficacy or it doesn't, um, to be able to support the kind of strategy and, um, the arguments we were having. Ultimately, we collected this data, we showed that it's actually working, we did many types of design iterations, and we knew eventually we learned why some of those stick and why it doesn't in terms of behavioral change we wanted to see. And that eventually became honestly internally a case study because our CEO and our head of product at that point didn't think that this will actually have the impact on users. But when we did all the prototyping, collected the data, both qualitative and quantitative supported that actually certain design that we had actually changed behavior quite significantly for people who were particularly the target, people who were being sedentary long hours of the day. So that became— then we got green light to build it and that became a must-have for every product ad. you know, Fitbit. So any new product and any new hardware we launched, no matter if it was targeting more, you know, active people or more kind of sedentary people, this became a must-have. So it was a huge win for the team. But why do I share that when you ask like what I've learned? A few things I've learned is it was probably one of the most, you know, interesting projects I've personally been part of just because the team's kind of view and approach, which I still use today with my team, collect data, get customer feedback, have a strategic point of view, support the kind of R&D of the company, like look at the competitive advantage of company and say if they can do that, do something, or they can look at the competitive landscape and consumer behavior and make a decision. That is exactly what we did with that feature. And it eventually became a case study internally and also a very successful kind of feature launch. And always our head of product used it as an example because it showed the approach we had and, you know, the kind of design thinking and testing and prototyping and iteration. But also having that strong conviction with the, with the rest of the pieces was really powerful. And so I still use some of that with my team. So that's one capability. But also, like, we've learned a lot of specific things about people's, you know, behavior. Like, we had billions of sleep data points by the time we launched our sleep category. So seeing how that actually is a big problem, lack of sleep for people, like the education required around that. Most of the people think that by cutting their sleep, they actually become more productive. And we have— we've done a lot of user research to understand, you know, that's the common understanding. And then when we start offering the sleep category, we put a lot of education around that, around your circadian rhythm and how that impacts your overall productivity and like just like your health and all of those. So both like I would say functional things we learned that is applicable to other things and some specific things around categories. category that we've learned, like sleep behavior.

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So tell us a story when you come up with a, you know, strategy with a hypothesis that you thought, well, this is going to move needle, this is going to work. And then when you did data and then it turned out to be so off your strategy. Yeah. And that what happened?

Yeah, I think that when I always like put a strategy together, I think there's like 4 or 5 kind of elements that I would say they're inputs or they're the kind of recipe for strategy. One is the customer voice. So like go out there, talk to your customers, really understand their problem. So that user research component. The second piece is data, like looking at the internal data of the company. The third is like the market research and kind of like external data, if you will, and see like where you are in the curve, like for growth for certain, you know, categories. The fourth piece is stakeholders' inputs. Like, you know, CEO probably has a vision about where the company has to go. Your chief operating officer probably has another view, like kind of bring— collecting all that information and aligning and synthesizing that as part of putting the strategy together. So when I came At Clio, we were you know considering to go a very different path. I won't be able to get to a very much detail of what path and and and all that, but there were multiple paths we were considering. And when our team kind of bring our recipe together, did all the research and brought the five elements together based on where directionally we want to go, where our vision was, where our strength was as a company, where we see the market opportunity, we decided to not go to route, you know, B, let's say, or C, which were a few kind of really serious directions that we were considering. And we decided to go end-to-end, provide end-to-end support for our families. Our company initially started for supporting families in early stage of their kind of family creation. Our product was initially support families to kind of have their babies and the first year of their you know, pregnancy and 1-year-old support. And then when we look at our product and offering, like our second product line was our kids product, which basically support the parents up to, you know, age of 12. But when we did all the research, we realized that people are saying parenting doesn't stop at 12. We still need more support. Like teenage ages are very hard to navigate. When we also went to our clients and talked to them, they all said, we love Clio, our employees love Clio. Why don't you guys like do more? willing to buy more from you, why don't you offer us more? Because we need your support for end-to-end parenting support. And many other data points we collected, but like those are some of the anecdotes that I use here. But that gave us the conviction that our model is replicable to be expanded across end-to-end support for families. And that basically became a direction we take, again, a lot of rigorous analysis across multiple other dimensions too. But to your point, there were definitely option B and C and D on the table, and we decided to take this route, which has been really fascinating and amazing to see because, you know, in the last year and a half, almost 2 years, we launched 2 new product lines. We launched our teens product line to support parents during the teenage age of their kids. And we also acquired a company and kind of integrated them and relaunched their product. That's around kind of adult care support and special needs kids support. And it's been fascinating to see within like these like year and a half, 2 years, we have 50% of our clients already bought an expanded end-to-end platform with us. So they bought into our vision, they saw the needs and their employees have the needs. So I would say like was the right direction, like the strategic direction that we made. And also we had, you know, fascinating programs that we launched, including Our neurodivergent program, which is basically supporting families who have kids with ADHD or autism. Since that program came out of inception, it had 350% growth, and 100% of the families who went through that experience said that Clio helped them to basically have more productivity and get the support they need and have a better mental health just because of like kind of that whole package of offerings we have for them, whether it be navigation for school and care for their kids or like health system navigation, which is really awesome. Or in a kind of very different spectrum, we had our kind of childcare enrichment program that we launched, which is helping families to find, you know, daycare, nannies, whatever that fits them the best. And also that was like extremely well received by our clients. And again, like a really high CSAT of our users. So it's just great to see that we've been able to provide both depth and breadth for the members with a really high quality. So give—

I'm just trying to figure it out like, oh, Clio partners or client customer, when you think about a lot of this benefit that Clio's offering, products offering, it feels like you hear a lot more companies like who are like the Google who would buy this sort of things. I mean, I work at UCSF. I'm not so sure. I don't think we have the benefit that you're offering. Not that maybe I have not figured out yet, but I'm just trying to— I was talking to my colleague earlier, like I work all my life, you know, I work with multiple companies. I think only one company that really provide a lot of the resources that really support the wellness of the employee. I think that is not the norm. I think that's the exception. And I'm just trying to figure out what are the things that Clio can do to help to bring more employers to be in that as a mainstream rather than the exception.

Absolutely. You're absolutely right. And I say that, you know, some of these large tech companies are definitely like early adopters of some of these types of benefits. we've been kind of fortunate to work with over 145 large clients such as Salesforce, Kooi, Pinterest, Pepsi, Red Bull. As you saw, like Pepsi and Red Bull maybe are slightly different than a lot of our tech, you know, customers. And that is definitely a big focus for us. We do want to make sure that our services and offerings get out there to everyone in every industry. Would it be distributed work? Would it be people in healthcare and health tech, um, or almost any other industry. So that there— we are definitely putting, um, uh, effort into, you know, getting out and meeting with the clients from different industries because we know that this service can really help people. When we look at the stats, um, you know, particularly with pandemic, but even honestly before that, uh, we know 1 in 5 Americans, um, providing unpaid care for an adult And that's at about an average of 24 hours per week. We know that about 50% of families, either one or two of them kind of scaled back from work or dropped out of the job market, particularly during the pandemic, but we still see outcome of that. And about 70% of the families and caregivers based on CDC actually reported anxiety and depression signs, and also 30% of them had suicidal risk. So the needs are there. All of these people are in many different industries, and we really are out there trying to make sure to educate and inform the employers and really help them to understand how this service can support their employees. And honestly, there's a lot more openness to that because when you think about your diversity and inclusion strategies, when you think about like how to support your caregivers so that they can focus on, you know, jobs, because about when you think about the absenteeism and the productivity impact when you have caregiving responsibilities, huge. It's about $44 billion per year that is kind of coming out of absenteeism and, you know, time off that people have to get for caregiving. So with that, you know, it's really important, you know, for employees to also— for employers to support their employees in this journey, and we are committed to make that happen.

Yeah, I mean, I read it somewhere in the article. I mean, with recent employee reduction in the tech world, and everybody said, well, you know, Not that they need to cut costs, but I think they were saying that they want to show the stakeholders that they're doing something. I guess they call it— it's contagious sometimes when they do employee reduction. And one of the things they also want to show is their efficiency by cutting all their perks, because I think that tech is known for offering the perks. And but I think I can totally see Oftentimes the value for what Clio is offering are maybe can, it's more helpful for not the tech worker, more on the frontline workers.

Exactly.

But is that like a, but then at the same time, cost is always an issue. I think people are always like, we want to make our employee happy, but at the end of the day, they don't want to say the bottom line has to be happy. And how do you balance that? And how do you show your, uh, your return on investment?

Absolutely. I think that's a key.

And how do you track them, I guess?

Yeah, absolutely. That, that's a really good question. Um, and I agree with you, like, both, you know, any type of employees honestly can, can benefit from an offering like Clio, would it be like on the kind of, um, frontline, uh, distributed work, or, you know, people are tech type of jobs. And for our employees, for our clients and our prospects, return on investment is very important. And definitely for us is, you know, like one of the ways that we actually start tracking a lot more rigorously. And we've been doing that even with, you know, like health outcomes that we are driving, productivity outcomes that we are driving. So we have like outcomes on top of mind, and we always track and demonstrate that. And as you can imagine, like a lot of the capabilities we build within the product allow us to kind of track that, but also like the services and network of specialists we provide enable us to deliver that kind of outcome to them, the employees. And we report back on a regular basis to our clients. And it's a big part of how we have conversation with our prospects and how we are talking about what they get out of it. It's not just their employees, but what do the employers get out of this investment? And a new concept that we introduce is kind of family health index. which allow us to, in 7 ways, kind of track the needs of the employees. And based on that, basically triage their needs and support them. So you can imagine, like, we evaluate their general family health, their mental health, kind of caregiving burden, self-care, and multiple other dimensions. But that information allows us to say, okay, this person actually has mental health risks. So we put them on that path and support them. And then as a result, track and show the results. Or this this particular family need actually, you know, childcare support. So then we identify that again, like put that in that path and provide them the needs they have. Um, so that the combination of having the right assessments and data tracking and capabilities, having a network of experts across many different areas, would it be, um, kind of social workers and mental health experts or educators and, um, kind of midwives, like we have the whole spectrum. And the good thing about that is free for employees to access that, but it's also part of our offering and how we basically track and report to employers. So I think that the return on investment is definitely top of mind for a lot of prospects and an area that we also have invested in heavily, both being able to track it and report it, but also showing the outcome.

Now we are short on time. I just want to make sure that I ask you some of the questions. That's more on your personal journey. It's— I wonder if you want— if you can share with our listeners, what are some of your most difficult challenges that you faced throughout your career that you felt like, gosh, I made a huge mistake, this is going to set me back, whatever, but then actually it turned out to help you. Rather than actually when they happen, because when things happen, usually when you feel like, oh my God, this is like, you know, this is horrible. But then actually, when you look back, that is the one that helped you move forward.

Yeah, absolutely. I think one of my favorite quotes is Steve Jobs' quote that says, you can only look— you can— you never can connect the dots forward. You can only look backward and see how they pan out. And so I think it's very true about anyone's career path. I think no one really knows what happens was, you know, looking forward. Um, I think a couple of things. I've always had a growth mindset. I always want to kind of take on more responsibility. So that also, you know, caused a couple of times I take on, you know, leave something to go try a startup or something that kind of didn't pan out. I know I, I left Fitbit, which was a job I loved so much, dearly loved that from cultural perspective, from, you know, what we did, the value we offered. Anything we launch in, in the company, 20+ million people will get it overnight. So just the virtue of impact was fascinating. But I do remember that, you know, I left that role to become a VP of product in a startup that ultimately didn't work out. And we had to kind of— we had to fold that company. But kind of that experience, I think, opened up a bunch of other opportunities for me. It's tough when it happens, or when I had my own startup, which was basically— anyone who has started a company knows, it's like the heart and soul of a founder that you put all into it. And I, when I did that, it was really awesome. Again, the highs were high, wins were amazing. And I had an— I really enjoyed that journey. But when I had to kind of leave and kind of decide that this is not having the traction we wanted, was really hard for myself and my co-founder. But that ultimately allowed me to realize that my love is in creating something from nothing and building something and kind of that identifying what to build for people and see them adopting it is what I enjoyed. Which kind of ultimately led me to product, which I honestly have never looked back after that. Like, I found my love into building things and delivering basically offerings at scale. And that has been really awesome. But every time things like that happen, when you're in the thick of it, it's really hard. But after that, you just realize, you know, how it connected your dots.

Yeah. So what do you tell yourself when it's hard at that moment, how you tell yourself to get up and keep going?

Yeah, I kind of over time, I proved to myself that I'm very resilient, and I always figure things out. So because I fundamentally believe in that, and I know that all the good things happen to me, when things like when tough things happen, and I went and I'm in the thick of all the challenges, I fundamentally believe that I'll figure it out. And the next thing, and the next move will be just better and bigger and more exciting. And because I truly believe it, and this is one skill I'm trying to really instill in my 2 kids, to kind of know if— I mean, if you— not giving up is not necessarily what I'm trying to tell them, but like how to be strong and resilient and always figure it out and have the conviction that they'll do better next time.

Yeah, I like I love the things that everything will be fine, which is so true.

Totally.

Yeah. So, well, thank you so much for sharing, uh, your story and, uh, your insight and knowledge. Um, I learned a lot from your— our conversation today.

Absolutely. It was my pleasure and very much looking forward to staying in touch with both of you.

Sounds good. Thank you.

Thank you for listening to another episode of the Health Technology Podcast. We want to thank our executive producer, Herminio Neto, and our podcast engineer, Andrew Rojek. If you enjoyed this podcast, be sure to subscribe and leave a review. The Health Technology Podcast is available on all major platforms.

Thank you.