Interviews with dads- Efrain Reyes

My name is Efren Reyes. I live in Orange County, California, and I'm 30 years old. I work in a nonprofit company. I actually support schools with behavioral health. So my job is to help run a program called the Strengthening Families Program, and this helps families kind of communicate better, bond better, Um, you know, all that good stuff. I've been married for 8 years. I actually celebrated my 8-year anniversary on Tuesday, so that was really good. And then I am a— thank you, thank you, appreciate it. And then I have, uh, one daughter, only one right now. Uh, she's 3 years old. Um, so that's kind of like a little bit of, of my, my background and what I do.

Cool. Now, is that in the public school system?

Yes, so it's a public school system here in Orange County. It's extra support for the schools, so people or teachers or principals or even the parents can sign up for this. It's a free program. It's a 10-week program that we work with with both the kids and the parents. Oftentimes with, you know, different programs is, you know, just the kids or just the parent, but this program is kind of doing both of them to make sure that, you know, they're both successful.

Okay, and who's funding that?

So it's funded through the county, actually. So there's a grant that they, they provided is a mental health grant a couple years back, and my company, you know, put in a bid for it and they got them the money. So we get money from them and then we put out this program to the schools.

Interesting. So is it like you guys are just funded for X amount of time or is it you guys are paid like per, you know, kid or parent that comes through the program?

No, so we're funded through for like usually 5 years, right? We'll do like a contract for 5 years, but then within those 5 years we have to meet certain goals. Like we have to serve a certain amount of parents certain amount of kids. Our surveys, we do surveys. Our surveys have to look good, and then depending on how we do is whether they extend or modify or whatever they do with the contract.

And is that just you?

No, it's actually— so that's only part of the program, right? I work with a team of 3 people, and then there's another team that works just with the students, and that's during the class time, and it's also working with behavioral health. You know, they teach emotional, social-emotional lessons such as like bullying, or anti-bullying I should say, empathy, how to manage your anger, how to manage your feelings, things like that. So that kind of social skills that maybe, you know, kids need a little bit extra help with.

Okay. And so, like, so he gets referred into your program, um, through whichever method. Are you guys just doing like an analysis and creating a program for him, or do you guys like put that every kid through the same program of like, here's the 10 weeks, this is what we work on week 1, this is what we work on week 2, or is it tailored, um, towards, hey, this kid's acting out in this way, so let's just focus on this one thing?

Exactly. So yeah, it's more tailored. Um, so for example, let's say there's a kid that showing more aggression, right? So we have like kind of like specific lessons for that type of kid, or we have a kid that is need a little bit more self-esteem, um, you know, boost of self-esteem. We have some lessons for that, uh, so it's kind of tailored for, for everybody, for all the kids that are, uh, how long you been doing that? Uh, I'm going to be— this is my actually 4 years in September.

Okay, uh, what'd you do before then?

I've been working with, uh, kids, um, and in behavioral health for the last 6 years. Before that, I was in restaurants. I was a bartender and a server, just got me through college and all that. And then I started working with in behavioral health. I also worked with So when I became a father, I got really interested in parenting and fatherhood. And that's kind of like what led me to start working with the Strengthening Families Program. And also with that, I wanted to find support for myself of just kind of being a good father, right? How do— what does a good father look like? So what I did is I looked for different companies and I found a company here in Anaheim that is called Dads Matter. And I actually went through that program myself. It's a 16-week program kind of helping you to understand that the difference that you can make in children's lives as a dad, kind of like showing like, you know, when a dad is present, kids are way more successful in different, all areas of life. And I loved it. You know, I love learning about fatherhood. I love learning about how I can make a difference, how I can be a better dad. So I actually, you know, at the end of the program, I gave him my resume. I was like, "Hey, you know, here's my resume. If you guys ever need a facilitator, let me know." So after that, you know, a couple months later, the director called me and I actually worked for Dads Matter for about a year after I started doing some other stuff. So I've been kind of like in behavioral health for the last 6, 7 years working with kids, teens, parents, couples, so like all that stuff.

So these, the last 4 years have been in the Orange County Public School System, right? With the, that family initiative, I forget what it was called, sorry.

It's called the Strengthening Families Program.

Strengthening Families, that's right.

Yeah, so that's, that's where you spend that. But I, during that time, I have also— so it was, I've been working with that company and I also work with Dads Matter at the same time. So I, I did two jobs.

Got it. So the, the kids you're seeing through, uh, the Strengthening Families project.

Yeah, yeah.

Uh, I guess, what are, what are your typical, um scenarios there? What are they coming into your program for? Like, what was the reason that someone suggested they go through this program?

In reality, the program can benefit any family, you know, as long as they, they're looking to better their communication, bonding, and things like that. But what typically these kids are referred for can be several different things. It can be you know, absences in school, it can be low academic performance, it can be misbehavior in the classroom. So with this program, we kind of, you know, help the family, help the parents, you know, gain some parenting skills, help the kids gain some social-emotional skills, and kind of create a more protective factors for the whole family so they can be more successful. So in this program they can be referred through a teacher, or it can be referred by administration, or even their own parents can say, "Hey, I want to participate." Is it ever mandatory, or is it strictly voluntary? No, it's not— I don't want to say mandatory because everything's voluntary, but they do kind of recommend or refer certain families. So it's my job to kind of call the families and say, hey, you were referred through blah blah blah, and this is what you will gain from the program. Would you like to sign up? Would you like to get more information about it?

What percentage do you think are taking advantage of that program versus are declining to do it?

Very low percentage, to be honest. So I—

I can see that, 'cause it would almost seem like almost a little bit insulting to a parent, even if they need it or not, that you keep telling me I'm not doing a good enough job and I need to take classes for this. I mean, or they're just, you know, a lifestyle of which they genuinely maybe don't care.

Right. Um, it can be. Some parents do take it that way. We try to make it in a way that it's just, you know, like an after-school family club because we're not like, you know, teaching like class-style classes, right? Like, hey, you need to learn this, you need to memorize this and this is the quiz that you're gonna get. No, it's like, okay, we're— it's social skills, right? So every night we actually have dinner for the families. So we kind of provide that environment where they can have dinner together as a family. Surprisingly, that just that alone creates so much power in the family. Just having dinner as a family, being able to have that space to talk and connect with each other, checking with what, how their day's been, you know, it's so powerful. But with a lot of families, you know, with technology and just the way that we live nowadays, that can be very difficult, you know, if the parents are working two jobs or the kids are, you know, playing video games and stuff like that. So just, so that's how we start every session, right? We start with having dinner as a family. And like, how does that help you, you know, be a better family? And it's not that you're a bad parent, you know, or it's just that we can all learn something new.

So we're not getting the high percentage of people who are being offered this or the program's being extended to. There's a low percentage of enrollment. What do you think, I guess, what are the factors that could possibly improve that? That more people would take advantage of it? Like, are you getting feedback into the reasons why they're saying no or deciding not to go through with it?

That's a really good question. What I've noticed is that since we are like a third-party company, when there is a staff member in the school that I'm working with, usually it's like a principal Administrator. If those people have really good relationships with the community, we get a high percentage of families there, right? Because I'm coming in as a—

Familiarity.

Yeah, yeah. So I'm coming in as a third party. I'm telling them, hey, take this program, this is going to be great. But I'm just a stranger to a lot of them, right?. But if there's a middle person, you know, that is there and they're like, hey, I know this, you know, usually like a community liaison, right? I know this person. I trust this person. If this person recommends something, I know that it's going to benefit me because they recommended things before. So that really kind of like makes the difference in what I've seen. With our program. So definitely that's a big thing.

Have you guys— have your rates of acceptance, or have you guys been able to improve that amount the longer you've been in the school program? So now going on year 4 versus year 1?

Definitely, yeah. So that's what we work on, creating those relationships with the school staff, kind of being involved not just in the program, but having the school recognize us for different things. So for example, we'll do like parent night or back-to-school night. Well, not anymore right now because there's no live school, but when we used to go, we would go like back-to-school night, pass out information. Maybe if the program was going to start in a certain school, then we will pass out that. So like that, just kind of creating those relationships to have families kind of trust us and know who we are. It's kind of like any business, right? As you start, nobody knows who you are, but then after a while, people even recommend people to the program, or even we've had like families that have done the program more than once because they just enjoyed it so much and then they just want to take it again.

Sure. So where do y'all guys meet?

We usually meet, uh, at the schools. So the school, uh, provides that facility for us.

And then, uh, you have to have enough people to go to every school, right?

So we don't— we don't— so we do each, uh, so we do each, uh, a program every day. So for example, Monday we're at one school, Tuesday we're at a different school, Wednesday we're at a different school, Thursday we're at a different school.

How many schools are in that county?

Oh, there's a lot. Yeah, we definitely won't be able to— Orange County is huge. Yeah, Orange County is huge and they have different school districts, so we can't service everybody. So it's kind of like we try to—

Do you get to pick the schools with the demographics that fit your program?

Yeah, yeah, so we pick demographics, we pick which— we try to go to different areas that we haven't been to before. So there's a lot of thought that goes into like which schools are going to get this program. You know, we try to— if the school district kind of had the program already, we try to go to a different school district. And the cool thing is like You don't have to just go to that school to join the program. As long as you're in the school district, you can technically come from a different school and just go through the program. So we try to advertise it as a district level.

So I'm just kind of curious now, just for my own knowledge. So in Florida, it was like 20, 30 years ago, they started doing the school lunch program and the school breakfast program for lower income kids. And they were noticing that that itself, like by itself improved attendance rates of schools like dramatically, like hugely, simply because there are so many families that now these kids could— the kids were wanting to go to school because they knew they were getting breakfast, they knew they're getting lunch. So at least two meals were covered, whereas that wasn't necessarily guaranteed at home. And I guess it eased a lot of, you know, fears or burdens on some of the families. But so I know that was a like tremendously successful thing, um, that was implemented. Um, so I guess, have you guys used food and does it work? Obviously you guys are doing the dinner, but have you guys put it out there almost like as a marketing call of like, hey, we'll feed you, yeah, show up, bring your family, and, uh, and use that as a sales pitch almost?

Uh, yeah, you know, I tried, uh, we definitely telem, but I'm not sure. I think I have to look into it, but what my boss told me is that we can't really do that because the program has to be kind of like, you have to come into the program wanting to get the knowledge, not just the food. But no, yeah, definitely that helps a ton when Families, you know, they're getting a dinner for their whole family. So we have to get creative with that because we have specific funds for that, and sometimes they're not that great. So we have to kind of like get creative with that, but we do try to find different grants that will help us kind of, you know, help with that. So last year we actually got a $10,000 grant and we kind of just used that for dinners, right? And we were able to buy better quality dinners and we were able to advertise, "Hey, this week we're gonna have Italian night and we're gonna actually have some good Italian food," or, "This week we're gonna have Mexican night, we're gonna have tacos," or whatever that thing would be. And kind of like I would use that as a sales pitch as well. Okay, cool.

For those families, are there a lot of dads showing up, or are these a lot of single mom households or single dad households or foster system kids? Where do you guys see them?

That's a really good question. Most that I see is moms, right? I love when dads come to my classes. I encourage dads to come. I let moms to kind of push dads to go. But it seems that dads do have a harder time. I'm not sure if it's, you know, job situation or just being open for these type of programs. But they do have a harder time, you know, coming to these groups. Even when I was working at Dads Matter, you know, that was a big thing. You know, it was really hard to get dads to actually come together and talk about, you know, these you know, uh, topics and stuff like that. I'm, you know, I'm not too sure where exactly what it is. I think it's the multiple factors, uh, you know, it's testosterone probably. Yeah, definitely. I think that's— that has to do a lot with it.

What's the, uh, the Change Life?

So I started this company, um, it's a life coaching company, um, And I want to create programs for families, for dads, and for business owners and things like that to help them just, you know, have a better, happier family or happier life.

So the kids that are coming through the program, what are the most common things that they're struggling with, like, that are problematic? Is it anxiety, like depression type stuff? Is it bullying? Is it just being able to handle the workload or just home life? What is probably the most predominant issue?

Yeah, so another thing that I kind of want to let you know is with our program we actually service two populations. We service the elementary school population and then we service the middle or high school. So the kids, the elementary school population is kids that are 6 to 11. And then the other one is that our kids are 12 to 16. So it kind of looks different on both, both populations. Even like, for example, for the teenagers, they can be like, they're already starting to use drugs, or they're already starting to sell drugs. They have a lot of anger issues. They have maybe ran away, or, you know, they have got in fights in their school. So that kind of looks different than the elementary school, where sometimes at elementary school they are just kind of having a really hard time focusing in class, or they tend to have anger outbursts, or, you know, maybe more like anxiety type of behaviors. So It looks a little bit different for those two populations.

And so that anger type stuff, where is that coming from? Like, what is it usually based from?

They feel like they're not quite accepted in their home. It can be like that their parents, you know, don't listen to them, or their parents just don't have that time to create that quality time. So they want to— sometimes it's kind of like attention, right? Attention-seeking behavior when they do these anger outbursts. And they want to say, hey, mom, dad, like, I'm here, like, pay attention to me.

Home life is not on point, right?

Yeah, home life for sure not on point. It can be, you know, divorce, it can be homelessness, it can be multiple things. Yeah.

And that, that's in the, the older group, the 12 to 18, right?

Yeah, most, most of the time on the older ones, that's where, that's where we see that more anger, more, um, behaviors like that.

And so are you guys working with the kid to kind of deal with those things, like, hey, this is life and you got to deal with it, or is it, um, and I'm sure it's both, but, or is it more working with the parents of, okay, you've created an environment here that kind of sucks for this kid and so he's acting out? We'll work with the acting out part, but like, y'all need to get your crap together at home.

Yeah, yeah, it's kind of both, right? So like, I'm actually facilitating the parents' portion, so I work with the parents separately from the kids, and then there's another facilitator that works with the teenagers, and kind of like, we talk about similar issues, right? So for example, one night we'll talk about what does positive communication look like?. That's what I talk with the parents. And then the other facilitator will talk about what does positive communication look like for teens, and how do you talk to your parent, what is good, what is not so good. And then we come back together and we create this— we have a family portion where we create different activities that we practice these skills, right? And a lot of it is actually games that we practice communication, or like board games or things like that, that you're kind of forced to communicate in a certain way.

So when you say there's not— the communication's not happening the right way at home, is it just conversations are being avoided? Um, it's just everything's just anger and everyone's just yelling at each other? So because I'm trying to— I'm trying to think of I understand the concept of like positive communication games and like, you know, doing the games and like you can create a conversation, but you know, how does that relate then to everyday life at home? Because I'm just trying to think how I would receive that. I mean, we communicate as a family all the time. I've never thought about a tactic to communicate. We just talk. We just, you know, we discuss all aspects of our lives. Yeah, I'm curious, like, like in practicality, what you guys are dealing with, what you're seeing.

We have to understand where they're coming from, right? A lot of these families are very low-income, low-educational families. I'm sure for maybe your family, this was a norm, right? This is the norm. We just talk. But for a lot of families, they don't have these conversations, or these conversations can be negative or they can be destructive, right? So by doing it in the game is a way that we help them understand that, you know, we can practice this and also kind of creates a less stressful environment, right? Like, hey, we're just learning, we're playing, we're having a good time, and then that can lead into the home life, right? We kind of have these, um, I wouldn't say homework, but we have like kind of like, all right, this week I want you to, um, work on giving each other compliments. And, you know, like, see, let's see who, who can give each other the most compliments. So like that little thing that, you know, they didn't do before can create a big difference in their, in their home life, in their environment, right?

Okay, so just not enough positive things are being said at home, and it kind of has a negative effect on any communication being happening, because who wants to talk to somebody that is just always crapping on each other, right?

Yeah, positive communication, and then not recognizing, uh, each other's feelings, right? So we're kind of like, parents are busy, they just want to get things done, and you know, they come— their kid comes and wants to tell them something that might be really important to them, but you know that's not on their parents' mind, so they brush them off. The kid comes again, you know, so it's a pattern, right? It's a pattern that we create, and it's a pattern that we try to change and help parents understand that, you know, these—

So not having the conversation is also part of the problem? Pushing it aside, brushing it under the rug kind of thing?

Exactly, yeah. Or not knowing how to have the conversation or ask the right questions to the to the, uh, uh, to your kid, right? Like, hey, I see that you, you seem upset, like, let's talk about it. Or just even listening to the kid, right?

Yeah. Do you guys ever cover like how to react to like dummy news or things like that?

Well, like for example, for, um, for the teen portion, we talk about sexuality, we talked about, um, romantic relationships and stuff like that. So one of the things that I cover is like how do you answer tough questions. So I have like this little script that kind of tells you like, you know, make sure that you recognize, or, you know, first of all, thank them for asking you that question. Recognize where they're coming from. Try to understand their background and stuff like that. So like it kind of like leads you to like, how do you respond to those type of questions, right? Or situations. Yeah, so I think—

because I think if a kid comes to you with something, whether it's sex, drugs, relationship, or whatever it is, something more stunning, uh, you know, where it shocks you a little bit, you just didn't expect it. Yeah, I've always felt like the way you react as a parent is kind of critical. I've used to kind of stay calm and like absorb it and intellectually react to it, other than like shock of, oh my gosh, what happened? You know, flip out a little bit, because then it kind of like makes the kid feel like crap, or like they did something wrong, or maybe they didn't, and it can kind of scar them from coming to you again because you react like a crazy person a little bit. And oh yeah, or maybe overreact a little bit where, where you're not like the wise counsel anymore, you're the drama queen.

Exactly. Yeah, you just hit a really important point right now. Like, the way that you respond to these situations, it's going to create how they feel about it, right? Are they going to come back to you later on when they have another situation, you know, right now maybe kids are younger and they're coming to you because, you know, I don't know, whatever reason. But later on when they get older, it might be something bigger, right? And then that's when they really—

that's when that foundation of trust.

Exactly, yeah, that's when it really makes the difference. But I feel that a lot of parents don't understand this concept and we are reacting. I know I was, or I am still sometimes. I had to kind of remind myself, right, I need to kind of just be calm, like model what you would want your kids to do, you know what I mean?

Uh, and so, so that was the older side. What about the younger side?

The younger side, uh, in terms of, uh, in terms of what are the biggest issues you guys are dealing with? Just, I feel like the lack of quality time will be, um, one of the biggest issues to, to just create a kind of, yeah, I guess feeling neglected, uh, so they, you know, so they start to act out at school or act out at home, um, you know, it kind of goes back to not being listened to or Yeah, kind of neglect. I mean, go ahead.

So I want to get away from the kid perspective for a little bit. So you're talking a lot with the parents. What are the problems that parents are facing? What are the struggles they're having that they're looking for resolution on or don't know how to handle?

So a lot of the parents, you know, they're hardworking parents, right? So they are working super hard. They're already stressed with maybe multiple jobs, you know, So this creates a— already, you know, if you're bringing that stress to your home, it creates another stressful environment right there. And then, you know, not having the communication skills to kind of listen to your kids or not having the time. I mean, I feel like they do have the time, but maybe they don't put the time into just having a quality time with their kids and things like that. So I talk about, you know, how to manage your stress, right, as a parent. I talk about positive communication. I talk about how to be a good listener. Surprisingly, a lot of us are— a lot of parents are not great listeners. They think, you know, just because I'm the parent, I'm right all the time, or I should be right, but you know, it's not about being right, it's just being understood, you know what I mean? So different things like that. What else do we teach? I'm blanking out right now, but yeah, things like that, just like social-emotional skills.

They're— sorry, they're stressed at home and they feel like they don't have enough time. I don't know how deep in discussions you get with everybody versus it being more kind of Um, you know, maybe more teaching and less counseling, if that makes sense. I feel like a lot of people say they don't have time and spend a crap ton of time fiddling with their phone, playing video games, and know everything that's going on in reality TV shows and know everything that's going on in celebrity lives and are sports fanatics that seem to have plenty of time to follow sports, but they can't make time for their freaking kids, right? Are you seeing that, or are these situations where they generally, they just work all day, there is no entertainment or stress relief, it's just work and trying to spend time with kids?

A little bit of both, but I do work with a lot of, uh, Latino and Hispanic populations, so a lot of them, they just are like working. You know, I feel like we have as Latino and Hispanic culture, we have this idea that, you know, we immigrated to this country to have a better life for our kids. So we have to work, work, work, work, work, work, work, and create that. But what we don't realize is that by working so much, you're kind of neglecting, you know, what's most important. Right, which is your kids. So, um, then that's, that, that, that's like something that kind of bites you, um, in the ass at the end of the day, you know. You're, you're, you're trying to work and provide the best or a better life for your kids, but at the same time, your kids don't— maybe they don't need all that, um, you know, all the things that you buy them, but they need more of your, of your time. They need more of your just being empathetic with them and things like that. So that's what I see a lot because I do work with a lot of Latino Hispanic population.

So when you get into those conversations, do you start to— I've never looked at the numbers of somebody who's working 2 or 3 jobs, but do you get into budgets and financial management and those kind of things?

Not with my program, we don't. But I think that is a really good point. I did do that with That's Matter. So there was one week where we actually focused on financial health and stuff like that. And we had a presenter come and present different topics on that. But yeah, that is, that is, I think that's a really good point that should be addressed in this type of programs.

So in the same way the time's wasted, money being wasted on expenses, just buying things you don't really need. Wasting money on stupid stuff. And then if you just cut those things out, you just don't need to, uh, you don't need to make as much. Then you won't be as stressed out or things like that. So I've never really looked at someone's numbers who's working, you know, 2 or 3 jobs to support the family. So I've never quite understood what that would look like if it's truly a kind of like, not life or death, but we have to do this way because we're just not making it otherwise, or if it is, there's a lot of reckless spending and then it just seems like you have to live that way, but you're just actually wasting it.

Yeah, I think it's a little bit of both. We tend to maybe waste money in areas that doesn't need to be wasted, and then also With the immigrant population, they are getting, maybe a lot of them, underpaid, really, really low, so they do have to work several jobs, especially living in Orange County. It's really expensive to live here. So there's a lot. I think financial health is the point that we're trying to talk about, right? Do we really need, um, you know, these extra things, or can we spend this money in a different way? Or can we just, you know, have this money to create that quality time, right? Because I feel like it's not the lack of time or is the lack of money, it's just a lack of using those resources correctly.

Well, and you mentioned, um, like some of the people you're working with, so some of them it is kind of necessary, they have to work these does. And that's just survival, that's not frivolous spending, right? Because Orange County is expensive, because of the area where they live. I've always been curious to that, what the mentality is, because if I was in that situation, um, yeah, focus on it, you know, improving income obviously. But even without that thought, I would think, why not move somewhere else where you don't have those issues? Where maybe pay is better, or at least cost of living is not, you know, one of the most expensive in the country? Like, why not move? Like, why are people staying there?

Yeah, that's, that's an— that's an— this is— those are awesome questions. I think, um, I mean, there's multiple factors, but I can just speak to like my culture and what I know for like Hispanic and Latinos. And for us is Mexicans, we have a very strong sense of family. So we kind of stick together, you know. So here in Southern California, there's a huge Latino population, right? So we feel that, you know, there's like support, there's, you know, you know people, you can go to the local market and kind of get the things that you want or you need. So there's a sense of home right here. In Southern California. I mean, and then to move out, I actually thought about moving out of California because, yeah, it's super expensive to live in Orange County. And then the thought about, you know, like, I'm going away from my family, right? I'm going away from my loved ones and my support system and stuff like that. Those are things that I think about, right, when it's like, oh, you know, should I move or should I not? Move. Um, so it's a different, um, I think mentality. And I, I'm just saying this is kind of like where for more like Hispanic and Latino, I'm not sure, I, I can't speak for, for everybody.

You're not saying actual blood family, grandma, grandpa, aunts, uncles. You're saying like the community is almost like a—

yeah, yeah, yeah, the community is like a family, you know. You know, the, the local, you know, market person and, you know, um, you know, just like people around you, you know. So, uh, it— I feel like, uh, a lot of, uh, especially, um, I feel like not like second generation, um, immigrants but like first generation, you know, they, they want to kind of stick together to like support each other and stuff like that.

That's— it almost seems like their strength is kind of their weakness as well.

Yeah, a little bit, definitely. So it's going to be— it's going to be really interesting to see how some of these things change as we are limited by that interaction, right? Because we, we have that sense of like family and sense of community. But now we, like, with this whole, like, pandemic, is like we can't, like, interact with each other. Um, so that's gonna be like, you know, I'm sure there's gonna be a lot of, um, secondary, uh, issues with that.

I feel like we're talking a lot of, like, labor-based jobs. Um, and so I'm from Florida where, like, a lot of labor jobs, like, if you're in labor construction, um, landscaping, mowing lawns, just kind of pressure washing, you know, even just handymen in general, like, you make a killing. At least in Florida, you make a freaking killing because apparently Americans just don't want to work hard anymore. Like, we've been told it's not— it's beneath us. You shouldn't push a lawnmower because that's beneath you. You should work some white-collar job or you're going to be miserable. From 9 to 5. So I feel like a lot of those labor-based jobs, like the, the value of them and the amount you can get paid has really risen lately. Is that not happening in California?

No, yeah, I think it is, it is happening.

But, um, because those used to be like really crappy low-paid jobs and now they're becoming, I mean pretty dang expensive just because there's so few people that do it anymore.

Yeah. No, I think there's people that make a lot of money through handyman or plumbing or whatever it is, construction, landscaping. But I also feel that there's a lack of balance, right? How much you you like expand in your business compared to how much do you spending in like creating a good family life, right? So, uh, maybe, uh, the focus is, you know, building this business and creating freedom for your family, but at the same time is like, you know, you're neglecting— you might be neglecting your family because you're working long hours or you're, you know, putting too much into the business, um, now that your family or your relationships are kind of like struggling, right?

Yeah, so like, like we said, I'm guilty of that. I mean, so, so if we're switching the conversation from, um, kind of lower, lower class, you know, poverty-stricken, to more middle class, upper class, uh, income levels, then yeah, I think there's a lot of situations where Careers maybe need to take a back burner sometimes to where the business needs to take a back burner. You don't have to take every opportunity. You don't have to drive as hard because you've got that 20-year window or really less than that with kids and with your family to make that more of a priority sometimes. You know, I'm certainly guilty of— there were times in my life where my kids didn't even see me some days just because I was up before they were. Awake, and I didn't get back home until after they were asleep. But then on the flip, those are times where we were driving hard. Then on the flip side, I was, you know, there were times where I was there breakfast, lunch, and dinner, and they, you know, it's almost like Dad didn't have to go.

Yeah, for sure.

So, so we, we kind of found, you know, if you want to call it balance in that way, it was just a much bigger picture. It was over the course of years. Um, so there were like, you know, 3, 4, or 5 month periods where I was where I was driving hard and then 3, 4, 5-month periods where I was able to kind of take my foot off the pedal for a while and make family a focus. So it's kind of, it wasn't a daily balance or a weekly balance, but more of a yearly balance.

Right.

But I do see a lot of that in those income levels. I just don't know, I just don't know enough about, like you said, the Latino culture and the, you know, the lower incomes or under-the-table incomes, things like that, to where I don't know how much of that is actual two job, 80, 90 hours a week and we're surviving versus, okay, maybe we don't have to work 80, 90 hours a week because we make enough, we're just spending too much.

Yeah.

That's where I just speak out of turn there because I don't know.

Yeah. No, and I think that within our Latino Hispanic community, the financial health topic is very needed. And, you know, it might not be that, you know, it might be that we're making money, it's just that we're not managing it correctly. We're spending it in different ways that are not beneficial to us. Or just even like, for example, buying kids, you know, video games or excessive video games that you might spend that money, um, you know, somewhere else, right? Going, taking them to the park and buying a, uh, you know, some food and just spending that time.

Because if you're $10 an hour picking crops out of a field and a game is $50 to buy, yeah, and you know, you just had to sit 5 hours in a field to buy a video game for a kid. And I'm sure long run You flip that around, don't pick for 5 hours and spend time with kids.

So yeah, and I feel like, for example, like that video game situation, right? So parents is like, okay, it's not necessarily that I want my kid to grow up healthy, but I just want my kid to, I just don't want my kid to bother me right now because I'm tired and I'm stressed. So I'm just gonna buy him something that's gonna keep him you know, just quiet or just occupied for more time, right? Like video games is a big one. Uh, like buying kids a phone at an early age, that's another one. Or just giving your, your phone. I'm guilty of that. I give my, my daughter, my 3-year-old daughter, my phone, you know, when she's kind of going crazy and stuff like that. But then I have to catch myself like, okay, like what are the habits that I'm creating, right? So I try kind of on the flip side, um, spend more time with her and like do a puzzle or read her a book, you know, those little things that I think are super important that sometimes we, we kind of forget about.

Yeah, actual person-to-person bonding, for sure. Yeah. Um, because I'm super curious, I want to find a white paper on that. I'm fascinated by that right now.

Which one?

The lower, the, the, the, the immigrant, the first-generation immigrant that's, you know, super low income working 2, 3 jobs. I just, I'm curious to how much of that is necessary versus how much could be resolved by better, better financial management.

Right. No, yeah, definitely.

Because, because I genuinely think if it's about survival and you're working 80, if dad is working working his butt off, 80, 90-hour weeks, 100 hours, whatever it is, and he's not spending a lot of time at home, but it's all about survival and the family knows that, like, we're barely getting food on the table and roof above our head, dad's taking care of us the best he can picking crops, then I think that family kind of turns out okay because everyone kind of knows what dad's sacrificing. He's not going out to the bars and drinking. He's out there busting his butt working, and we're barely making it as it is. And there's not frivolous spending versus if he's— and that's why I changed my tone on it when it's middle class, upper class, because then there's— now we're just talking excess. We're talking building for the future. But when it's about survival, I think the dynamics change because the whole family understands that this isn't neglect, this isn't choosing something over me, this is holy crap, Dad's really, really sacrificing just so we can live.

Yeah, I think that there's— for what I see what's going on is, um, you know, maybe there were— let's just say there was a big wave of immigrants coming into the, to the U.S. from whatever Latin American country. So these parents are working, you know, a lot of long hours and things like that, right? And they, they don't have the time to, you know, be with their kids. So their kids are out maybe in the streets, or maybe they're, they're trying to look for that parent or the acceptance somewhere else. It can be gangs, it can be drugs, um, and now these kids are having kids. So these kids that are maybe don't have those they didn't see what a good parent looks like, what a good relationship looks like within their maybe, uh, family. These kids are having kids, right? And now they don't have those skills to be a parent or be a father and stuff like that. So then they're kind of falling into another cycle, right? But, um, we— I feel like we, a lot of times, we don't realize that.

We don't realize that, uh, this is a cycle that's, that's gonna continue unless we kind of bring some awareness We went on that long tangent because we were asking what the parents were feeling or what the parents were saying, what their biggest struggles were. And so it seemed to be time and stress, right?

Yeah, I didn't even realize that then, but that was a really good conversation.

Yeah, yeah, I don't know. So that's the biggest thing we're hearing from parents. Is there anything else we're hearing from the parent side?

So another thing about— this population is there's actually a language barrier, right? So the parents are coming in here into the US, they're mostly speaking Spanish, right? Now they're having kids here and they grow up, the kids are actually speaking more English than Spanish. A lot of times the parents don't learn Spanish— I mean English, I'm sorry— and the kids don't fully understand Spanish. And it is, it's funny to say, but sometimes the parents and the kids don't even understand each other because they're not speaking the same language.

So that's another, uh, how does that happen when you grow up in the home? Was like, if you're raising a child, I understand the school system's teaching English, they're not learning, right?

But you're at home speaking Spanish, so, so the kid might know, you know, possible. I mean, it happens. I see it all the time. So the kid might know like, um, basic Spanish, right? He might know like just conversational Spanish, but when it comes to like deeper issues or trying to have a longer, more complex conversation, then, um, you know, they might know— they might not know like how to, how to have that conversation. The parents are not speaking English English. So then there's literally a, a, a language barrier between their kids and their, their, um, their parents. So that's another interesting, uh, factor.

And there's only one, one person to blame for that happening. That's mom and dad, I guess. People— yeah, no, I mean, the fact that they're not teaching their kid the language that they speak That blows my mind. I haven't heard of that before. Yeah, it blows my mind.

It is, it is, yeah, interesting. When I first, you know, encountered that, I was like, what? Like, how do you guys communicate? Like, how do you guys talk to each other? You guys like do things, you know? But yeah, that's another, another factor with this specific population.

The, the, that, that, like, it's like the school system's raising their kids more than they are in a way.

Yeah, in a way. You know, a lot of these parents, they have like the, the school that is, you know, they go in at 7:30 in the morning, they usually get out like 2:30, and then they have an after-school program, right? So they'll have like Boys and Girls Club or whatever, and then they're getting out like at 5 or 6. Right? 5:30.

I'm okay with Boys and Girls Club because I'm familiar with them and I know what they do and the demographics they're reaching out to. Man, I'm just so not okay with having kids and then just turn them over to the school district for the next 12 years, let them do all the raising.

Yeah, no, and I think a lot of parents feel this way that Schools are there to kind of like teach kids all these different skills, but in reality, that foundation has to be set at home, right? It has to be set at home and then maybe supported at school, right? But it's kind of being the other way around sometimes.

Yeah. Yeah, school should be— school should be the complement. Exactly. That's happening at home and not the other way around. My goodness.

Fathers are— so I have such an important role and they don't realize it sometimes. They don't realize how important a father can be in their daughter's life and their son's life and just in general as a family, right? And kind of putting that ego aside of what a man should be or do or whatever, you know, and being a father and being a family man, that, that is, you know, gonna help your family be a healthier family. So I'm just so surprised with what you're doing. Um, you're traveling around US, right, right now?

Yep.

And then what is your, um, like, your goal with this company that you're, that you're, you know, you're starting or you started?

Uh, well, the goal is just to reach as many people as possible. Uh, the what happens down the road, we'll see. Um, you know, we, we're making zero attempt to monetize this right now, um, uh, just because we don't have that kind of following. You need to be pretty large in numbers to be putting content out for free. And really, the way to monetize at that point is to get, uh, uh, you know, advertising one way or another, right? But that'll be, that'll be a while before we flip that switch because then we have to figure out, you know, who our audience is and what kind of product Okay, but be effective to point in their direction. Um, uh, but right now it's, it's almost— it's operating as a mission. Um, you know, almost, uh, what do you call that, charitable? Almost as if it were a religious, religious— or have you ever heard of missions like for churches? You're Latino, you're probably Catholic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I figured you're Latino. Yeah. Well, I'm not Latino, I'm Catholic. So it's almost mission work right now. We do it for free. It's on our own dime. We're putting all our money into it. If we can, we'll spend at least a couple years pushing it hard, traveling. COVID really put a damper in it. COVID, we can't have an event for things like that or gatherings. So, so it's a very interesting tour. It's more of a branding and marketing tour because we really can't reach out to groups and have events.

Yeah, no, I— yeah, I, I can see that.

Um, but luckily live in the age of social media, so we can still put all the content out for free and, and, uh, just trying to reach as many people as we can.

Why did you think about 100% Dad? Like like, why not 100% mom or parenting? Or why, you know, what is it that, you know, what do you think about like—

Well, mostly because I can't speak from the mom angle. And moms have been— moms have a ton of support. Moms have a ton of resources. They have a ton of, you know, a sisterhood there. You know, dads haven't, although it's, you know, I don't know if it's because I'm in the space now or if it's just the timing of it, but I've noticed a whole lot more, uh, yeah, more as more time goes by, the dads are starting to, to get that, uh, that bond and that support system, uh, built in. And I think the decades and decades of people kind of shitting on dads for a while, um, is finally starting to boomerang and go the other way again, where they're realizing, uh, that is in fact incredibly important to know. Um, but we've got, we've got, like I said, a few generations to kind of correct because we've got a lot of, um, you know, goofball dads. I think they're just there for comedic effect. Uh, you know, sports-obsessed dads, lazy wimps. Um, We've got a lot of that just from being shoved aside for so many generations. Now that's what they've seen. That's what they've seen on movies and entertainment and just culture in general.

Uh, right, right.

And you, you know, you kind of talked, um, I caught a little whiff of something you said about, you know, uh, you know, what the view of maybe testosterone or manliness is versus being a father. And I genuinely think it's both. I think it's, um I think it's important to kind of embrace testosterone and be a man and do man things. Yeah, I'm 100% okay, and they encourage camping and hunting, and, you know, if you want to drink hard liquor, drink hard liquor, you know, right? Uh, you know, the grow the beard out, those kind of things, throw a hatchet and, you know, hit the target, you know, that all that kind of stuff. And I don't think that's, uh, crapped on at all. But then also be there for your family and be a leader in the home and be a source of wisdom, which I think has been long missing. Yeah. And maybe less jokes and less punchlines.

No, yeah, I totally agree with you with that, where everything that you just said with moms having a lot of support, you know, they're there, I feel like there needs to be more support for dads. And also, like you, I've seen more support as I am kind of going into this field. But, you know, there just needs to be more. There needs to be more. There needs to be like a movement of really like dads, like you said, embracing their masculinity and then embracing all the things that sometimes we've seen as a feminine trait, which is empathizing with your kids, listening to your kids, having a good relationship with your significant other, like just being in tune with our emotions, right? A lot of times, like, I watched a movie, I can't remember the movie, I think, I'm not sure if you watched The Mask We're Forced to Wear or something like that. It's on Netflix and it talks about how, you know, men are raised a certain way where we tend to not be in touch with our emotions by the age of 8 or 9. And then what happens is, you know, this, like, you know, what we think a man is, it can prevent us from having those healthy relationships with our significant other or with even, even with other friends that are men, right? Just having a connection with them. We think that, you know, we're that can be, uh, gay or, you know, things like that. But it's like, no, we just need friends that we can, we can hang around with, be, be, do manly things and support each other, you know, be with our kids and, you know, raise our kids in that way as well. So yeah, man, I, I, I, I think we, you know, kind of have a similar mindset in that, in that sense.

Yeah, well, I mean, Pride for men is very real. You know, the need for independence and to do it on our own is very real. Testosterone is certainly very real. What else did you just mention? Something else that was good. Oh, and the—

I think just being in tune with their emotions and being able to show that, you know.

I was trying to think of a way to phrase that because certainly You know, you think of masculinity in a sense of, uh, you're able to push down emotions, you're able to really— and, you know, for guys, we're really good at compartmentalizing. So maybe it's not that we're, we're pushing them down, it's that we can just shove it over here while we focus on the important thing at the moment, um, but maybe never going back to readdress it, um, uh, but you definitely see a lot of that. And that's why I think dads are hard to reach as well. Because you try to tell some guy that he's doing it wrong or that there's a better way. And I mean, with fatherhood, that's a tough subject. I mean, it's hard enough to tell him he's mowing his lawn wrong or there's a better way to mow the lawn. I mean, it's hard to tell guys that there's a better way. There's, you know, we're stubborn and rigid and, you know, we have our ways and we like our ways. Uh, you know, we think they're good. Um, and so, you know, I, I think those are real challenges in the space.

Yeah, I think is, um, the inability to feel vulnerable, right? Like, vulnerability is so important for us to grow. Like, just because you tell me, you know, that there's a better way You know, kind of like you have to be vulnerable to accept that, right? Like, okay, you know, yeah, maybe I am doing it wrong, or, you know, I am, you know, I can find a better way. But sometimes we feel that if we are vulnerable or we kind of accept help is a sign of weakness, right? You're not man.

I'm not sure I agree 100% on vulnerable being the word. Humbleness, I would agree with, where we'd be able to accept someone else's opinion or be able to accept that maybe you're not 100% right. Um, vulnerable, I just feel like comes from, you know, so if somebody else hears that, is going to come from a point of, um, weakness, if that makes sense.

Yeah, and I feel like that, that, that word vulnerability is kind of linked to weakness, but I feel like it shouldn't.

Well, I think it's defined as weakness, is it not?

It can.

There's, there's a different, um, you know, terms right now, like if I'm gonna attack a fort, what's its vulnerability? What's its weakness? So I'm just thinking from that, I've never looked at the word vulnerable in a dictionary. I just think in context of how it's used, where Sid, they're saying weakness, where's the point we can, you know, we can break through. That's why I think more humble, humbleness.

I see what you're saying. So what I mean by vulnerability is coming from a I guess emotional intelligence, kind of like being able to open up, right? Open up to whatever you're going through in that sense. The way that I see it, I'm not sure if you're familiar with a psychologist called— her name is Brené Brown. She talks about vulnerability, and she talks about how vulnerability can be a way of being, uh, you know, courage— signs of— a sign of courage. Because so, um, that's the—

like, like in a relationship, like, you know, your wife, like letting her into things that, uh, maybe you wouldn't open up to other people about.

Exactly. Yeah, okay. So like sometimes, you know, we feel that being vulnerable or like opening up for whatever certain topics, it can be a sign of unmanliness or weakness and stuff like that, and that prevents us to create that connection with our significant other, right? And so that's where I'm coming from. So it's kind of— I feel like it, it was a little bit complicated, but Yeah, I see your point as well where vulnerability does seem like a, like a sign of weakness, but I'm, you know, I'm trying to kind of, I guess, use it in a different context.

Sure, sure. Okay. And I've said that a few times now where I think careers need to be sacrificed a little bit more. It needs to be spoken a little bit more to say that. Than what's actually happened. Because there are a lot of dads that, you know, think they're making a necessary sacrifice to provide for their family, but in reality, they are providing for their family. They've even provided for the future. And now it's more about ego and the need to build, which 100% understand because I'm that guy. Like, I want to build the biggest thing. And, you know, it's a very It's a very, uh, what's the best way to say that? It's tough to hold back that natural persona of wanting to build something because you know it's better for your family, you know. Yeah, I need to find a way to phrase that a little bit better. I'm getting tongue-tied on it. Um, but the ability to to hold back your career on purpose and to fight that urge to build, build, build and risk, risk, risk, uh, to kind of sit back and watch other people do it. It's super frustrating. I mean, it was for me. Like, we purposely held ourselves back, uh, and still do to this day, just because I get to spend a ridiculous amount of time with my kids. And I know when they're, you know, my youngest is 4, so when he's 18, what, that's 14 years. I'm 33, so I'll be like 48. When he's out of the house, my gosh, I still have so much time. And you know, I've already built a good— now, but I— that's when I can go free and just go crazy. And then, you know, as they get into their teenage years, it certainly opens up a little bit more. Um, but I mean, we, we certainly intentionally hold back, and I think that's— it's hard because then you watch everyone else that has your ideas and your drive doing it and blowing past you.

Right.

You just have to kind of sit there and, you know, restructure, I guess, the conversation saying my family and being like a whole complete tight family is more important than having the $100 million a year business with 400 employees. Right. So instead we have the 3-employee business and everybody else, you know, quote unquote, everybody else has blown past us since I—

Yeah.

And we're just this little cockroach of a company, but we have a great family.

No, I mean, yeah. I mean, what's the value on that? You know, like having a healthy, good family, like, is that worth like whatever the business is worth? I think that, you know, we have to kind of put that in perspective, right, sometimes. And, you know, I— That's awesome. I love the way that you, you think about that. And I wanted to ask you, like, what, what strategies or what, what ways did you kind of— what can— what do you use to find this, you know, balance? Or just to, like, kind of, like you said, hold yourself back? Or when is it— when is it okay to risk? When is it Just okay to kind of just hang out for a little bit?

So one of the, um, one of the things that helped me from growing insanely big is the fact that we don't borrow money. And we made that decision after we started the business, because we started borrowing, we got into a lot of trouble, um, and then we just, we got in so much trouble that we said we're just never going to do it again. Okay, that helped um, in the business we were in, which is coffee distribution, vending machines, that kind of stuff, if I got big accounts, I had to lay out a lot of cash, which every other company in our position, uh, would, would finance that equipment. You know, they would finance their truck, they would finance their equipment, and those are all upfront costs to acquire the customer. You know, if I get a, a, a downtown tower in Los Angeles and I've got the contract to do it, you know, I've got to buy some, what, 100, 200 machines at $1,000 a pop, maybe coffee machines. So that's, you know, $100,000, $200,000 worth of equipment for one customer. So, um, you know, there were a lot of those we had to say no to, which we, we certainly could have taken on, but it would have required debt, uh, would have brought more risk and a whole lot of time and effort to get I mean, that's a lot of, that's a lot of back-end office work. That's a lot of physical labor work. It's a lot of hiring and managing. Um, and so that's one of the things that genuinely helped us from, from growing too big. Uh, and it's super frustrating because you watch everyone else around you get bigger and bigger and bigger and take over. You see competitors then take that client and— yeah, direct— that's a good client, you know, it's probably You know, at the same time, we, you know, we were probably, so real case study, in our industry, about an hour and a half away from us, there was another competitor. They were about 10, 12 times the size of us, a lot bigger, who I certainly wanted to be that size. And they took on those big accounts that we were saying no to. And when we started having real discussions with the owners of that company, we realized we, like the owner, me, I'm actually making more money than that owner and he's struggling under debt and getting bridge loans and his business was in a sense sinking. He ended up selling and just breaking even.

So your profit, you were more profitable than that big business that was your—

Sure, because they're very debt-laden because they have what, 10, 15 trucks, but, you know, 10, 15 trucks with $1,000 a month or $1,500 a month payments on, uh, you know, every— almost every piece of equipment was, was leveraged and had payments on it, right?

Right.

And, and when things like 2008 happened and clients just disappeared, you still have payment, you still have the equipment, you didn't do anything wrong, you still have payments. And, you know, the same thing is coming around now in that industry of COVID We've sold now, so we're not in it. But you know, the guys with COVID no one did anything wrong. None of those operators did anything wrong. They have payments, they knew those customers were gonna be around, they were big customers. So they bought all the machines, but hey, now those call centers and those insurance offices and all those big buildings downtown are empty. No one saw that coming.

Yeah, exactly.

No one saw that coming, no one predicted it, but those payments are still due. I mean, if you think those banks aren't expecting payment on those, you know, You're wrong. Yeah. All those exemptions and they're not doing foreclosures and things like that, that all applies to residential. Doesn't apply to commercial. Right, right. When you've got bigger warehouses to handle the inventory load, when you've got all those truck payments, when you've got all that personnel that you have to pay, that can come crashing down on you fast. Like what happened in '08 and '09. And what's happening now. Those things were not foreseen. Like, you—

for sure.

So, so with that, we had the comfort of, um, of sleeping nicely and having a great family life, uh, but the constant frustration from me, the business owner who always wanted to grow, grow, grow and get bigger, bigger, bigger, purposely holding ourselves back. So some of it, the financial aspect really helped, helped guide us there. Because if I had been more risk-averse, um, or maybe better at managing that, then maybe I would have gone that way and we wouldn't be able to have this success right now. But because I was able to sacrifice the growth, uh, and just suck it up, it allowed me to have more family time. It allowed me to gain this perspective, wow, that actually ended up being better. Um, yeah, at the same time, when we started the business, every time I started a business Family didn't see me a lot. I mean, I did put in the hours and the time and make those sacrifices, and that was understood as a family. You know, my wife understood where I was, right? You know, and we owned our own businesses, we're starting our business. So it was a lot of like, you know, bootstrapping and just a lot of long hours on my part late at night, things like that. So we did have the advantage of, you know, mom and kids could come to the office and visit. It's not like I was completely gone. But sometimes you do need that. I mean, sometimes you just need to work when you're just— when you have a career change, when you're starting a new business, when you've got a new big client or a new section of the business happening, or just you lose a big client, whatever it is. Sometimes you need to be there and sometimes you have to sacrifice your family. Your family, sorry, your family time. To take care of those things, but it's not forever, right? I mean, it's not, it's not, you know, and maybe it's a month, maybe it's 2 months, 3 months, 4 months, um, but if you look up and it's been 5 years, yeah, and your kids are already like almost teenagers, you're like, oh dang, then that was too long, you know?

Yeah.

Um, and that's, I mean, that's You see that a lot, uh, and that's in the corporate world as well. It's not just in the small business world of, uh, that's in the corporate world of just climbing that corporate ladder.

And, uh, yeah, yeah.

I mean, I, I had a mentor of mine say, you know, this is back in the '70s, but, you know, every Friday night he was packing a suitcase and his wife was yelling at him because he needed to spend more time at home with the kids, and he was just pursuing the corporate career.

He was trying to get to the top.

Well, and in sales you had to, and sometimes in a corporate environment, sorry, you had to travel is what I was saying there. So you had to go, he had to fly out to a different city to wine and dine a client or establish a relationship. And there's a lot of pressures there. And I think the ability to say no to that and still manage your career properly. I guess is, uh, it's a talent certainly because you don't want to sit there and be— I just know in the corporate world, uh, if you sit still too long in a position, they, they start to overlook. So there is a balance that has to be had there because in some positions, uh, you know, the big corporate or, uh, you know, top 500, top 1,000 companies, it's kind of this constant culture of If you're doing good, you're going to get promoted. If you're not being promoted, then you'll probably never get promoted because you're just— yeah, you've been overlooked or you're not a team player or things like that. So I think to be able to manage that in a way— and every situation is going to be different, but, uh, you know, I'd probably have to talk to somebody in corporate to get a better understanding of how that goes because you do want to still elevate your career and take care of your family. You just got to be able to do both.

Exactly.

But if you're always choosing one over the other, I think that's where problems lie. Yeah. And so I'm not 100% sure how to do that in the corporate world just because I don't know that many corporate guys that are doing that. How to hold back and still be there for your family. It probably depends on the company.

No, yeah. And then another question that I had that you kind of brought to my attention was, you know, you were doing all your business and like you said, you have to sometimes, you know, you're starting a business, you have to put in the long hours and stuff like that. How did you— were you able to still put in that family bonding time? Was there strategies that you used to kind of just make sure that you check in with your kids every day? Um, and like, how much did your family support kind of help you you know, make, you know, feel good that you're, you're, you're, you're, you're still providing as a father and, you know, you're taking care of your family?

Well, those first couple years I was not doing a good job providing. I mean, it was, you know, starting a business, it took 3 times as long as we thought it would. It took 3 times as much money as I thought it would. Um, you know, when I started the first one Levi was like 6 months old, so it's not like he remembers any of it. I think I still had time for family. So when we started that business, my office was in the house and our warehouse was the garage. So I was still at home. Okay. I remember some of the problems being I had to get out of there because Levi, you know, 6 months old or a year old, however old he was, uh, wasn't understanding that dad's at work. And so it was constantly, well, I know dad through that door, which kind of— so from that perspective, my late hours were at home, um, and all my calls were at home and things like that. Um, trying to think, trying to put myself in my shoes from when I finally got out of there, because we went from that to a storage unit, I was able to go beyond my garage to a storage unit. And we got a bigger storage unit. And then we moved to a warehouse with its own office. That was probably 2012, I think I was there for about a year. And I think by then, we had some income going in, I think we had just hired our first person. And so I think I was home for dinner most of the time. I think there were nights or days, things like that, when I had to work late and then that was just a call home. I think I was usually there for dinner most of the time. I'll still probably put 60, 70-hour weeks, maybe 80-hour weeks. It was certainly 6 days a week at least. I'm an early morning kind of guy. I would just, I'd rather get up at 4 or 5 o'clock in the morning and get to the office and just be there 2, 3, 4 hours ahead of everybody else because that's when I work best and then be able to still go home at like 5 or 6 at night.

Okay. So you're a friend of mine?

Yeah. So I never minded. If I was going to make a sacrifice, I would sacrifice my sleep in my morning, get up way early. And go in, and then the kids wouldn't see me for breakfast, but I was usually home for dinner because by then I was starving.

So yeah, you wanted their food too.

Yeah, there were certainly days and times where, um, where, you know, I was going early and they're late and then going home, getting a few hours of sleep and going back in early, right? Um, but they didn't last forever. I think the longest one was maybe 3 weeks where I genuinely was burning the candle at both ends because we just lost a key person who was stealing from us.

Oh man.

And I realized all the work he was doing was a huge clusterfuck and just everything was wrong. We had just gone, we just launched a new business he was in charge of and just every single thing he touched was wrong and bad. I mean, I couldn't sleep if I wanted to. I was just kind of sitting there at night like, fudge.

Yeah, your, your mind is going 100 miles an hour.

I mean, I, I was probably at work. I mean, I was probably working 20-hour days, um, for probably about 2 weeks, um, with, with no other option because I was, I was the end-all be-all because we just had to fix everything in the computer systems on the customer sites. And ordering. I mean, it was just a gigantic clusterfudge. That's probably the hardest I've ever worked. And then, I mean, Ryan, my wife, and the kids just knew because that was more recently. That was about 2 or 3 years ago. They just knew this was a serious situation and, you know, family time just isn't important right now. We'll make it up on my time later, but like the business is in like a critical stage and, you know, the savior needs to save it.

So, um, right, right. So there was no work to do that.

I mean, I, I didn't have a meal with, with family for, for a few weeks there. Um, and they, I mean, I'm not sure the kids even saw me for a few weeks because I was genuinely at work so much. Um, and like it wouldn't even be— it's not like I could— I was just sitting there on the office doing nothing where they could come visit me and we could have a nice little dinner. I mean, it was just like, go, go, go, go, go. Um, that was probably the most— that's probably the most stressed I've ever been in business because we were big enough to have a lot to lose, um, but still small enough to where I had to be super hands-on. But yeah, that was less fun. Honestly, the truth is I've never— I've never been consistent on it. But that's also my personality. I'm very ADD. So it's not like I found a system that worked perfectly. I got up at this time and I made sure I said this to my kid and saw them this amount of times a week. It just never happened that way. It was just, it was constantly, you know, a long-term goal that I have a good family and that I have a good business. And so I made sure both were attended to and whatever was in a more critical state, And if I could, and if the business was doing good, I could spend more time at home. You know, if the business needed to take a leap to the next level or needed more of my attention, then that's where we focus the energies. I just, I was ADD enough to make that happen. And then not greedy enough to be that gung-ho on business to where I was never satisfied.

You've mentioned You know, I made it home to dinner most of the time. You know, I would be there for dinner. So it seems like that dinner time was a— would you say that that was a critical, like, important time where, you know, kind of like it was like a family time and you needed to kind of just try to make it there even if you were busy, you know, kind of put some stuff for tomorrow if you needed to and then kind of make it there?

Yeah, I, uh, as a general rule of thumb, I would rather be home for dinner because we did— we sat at home as a family. Ryan would usually try and time dinners up for when I was there, um, or my arrival or something like that. And so, you know, she'd call and ask when I'm gonna be home because I was never home at the same time. Sometimes I was there at 4 o'clock, 5 o'clock, 6 o'clock, 7 o'clock, just anywhere in between. So she would always kind of call and— okay, that was probably one of our many, many fights of Why can't you just come home at the same time all the time? I'm just not that way. But we've always been very focused on eating as a family. We like food, so we genuinely enjoy eating, but it's also our time to spend time as a family. You know, there's no TVs going on, things like that. We've always tried to have that as like the—

yeah, not necessarily what the family's built around, but kind of Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, I feel like there's a lot of conversations around the dinner table that may not be discussed if you don't have that, you know, that time as a family every day to kind of just bond and, you know, check in on each other, you know, whatever you need to deal with. It's not just eating dinner, right? It's solving problems. You know, hearing people out, planning, right? If you're gonna plan a vacation or plan something else, it's usually done at the dinner table. But what I feel like a lot of times is, you know, now that tradition or that— I don't even know what it's like, skill? I don't know what it is. It's not as important or people just don't do it as much. It's like a lost tradition, right?

Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, and we both came from families to where we did that. You know, I came from a split home, divorced home, but my mom was always— we always sat down together and ate dinner. It wasn't super formal or anything like that. Like, we ate at the table that was inside the kitchen. Like, they had another nicer living room that was only for, like, you know, special occasions.

Mm-hmm.

We just kind of, I mean, it was like nothing special. We just sat down at the table in the kitchen and, and, um, in their house they usually had a TV going, like a small one, but we still sat down as a family and ate as a family. And I know at my wife's house they always sat down and ate as a family, you know, with the exception of Friday nights, they always had their pizza and a movie night, so they would eat in front of the TV, uh, and watch, you know, any pizza. But, um, so I'm not, it wasn't something like we, we super saw it out and was super intentional. It's just kind of what we both knew. Um, we both kind of were raised decent folks. I can't say that was like a, a, um, a perceived skill or anything. It's just, just what we knew.

Yeah.

And it works out well. It genuinely— no, it does help with bonding, and I feel like we'd be almost more disconnected because it's actually starting to happen now, because now that we're in the RV, we can't sit down all together at the same time. Like, that little RV table, you know, it fits 4 people, but you're cramped in there. There's 5 of us. Um, so we're— yeah, we kind of eat in shifts. Um, if the weather's nice, you know, we can sit outside, like the outside picnic table, things like that, like that. And then we actually get to sit down and eat together. But, um, yeah, I'm not as wor— I'm not as worried about it because now we kind of like, everyone gets a plate and just sits wherever. And sometimes some people go outside, some people will be inside. And, you know, our kitchen and cooking utensils are small, so food's not always ready at the same time. So we do like smaller batches where we can feed 3 people now and then 2 people later. Um, but the truth is we spend so much time together right now that I'm not worried about that affecting our family. When we go back home, it's probably weird. To go back to sitting at a table altogether. But, um, we spend such a ridiculous amount of time together, 24/7, 365, that, that I know that's not as important of a thing as it used to be.

No, yeah, I mean, yeah, it makes sense. Um, you know, you guys are spending so much time together, you have a lot of these bonding times, so like if you're not eating together, you might have an opportunity to kind of do, talk to each other, bond throughout the day, right? But if it is like, you know, typical family where dad might be doing a business or mom is working as well, right? And this is the only time that they have to connect and, you know, like kind of check in with each other, then that becomes a very critical moment in their daily life that For me, you know, my dad would be watching TV, my mom would be, uh, at the table, I would be sometimes watching TV. So I didn't create— I didn't have that as growing up, right? Like, be more intentional about it. Like, it sounds silly to just say like, yeah, just have dinner together, but it's for real conversation and real bonding.

And it's just— I, I genuinely enjoy that time, so I don't think I'd ever want to give that up.

So do you plan like where you're going next, or do you just like say, hey, I'm just— let's look at a map, let's go where we want to go? Like, how do you guys like—

a little bit of both. It's planned, um, to the extent that we have to have places like scheduled ahead to go, and some busier places you need to reserve in advance.

Okay.

Um, so we're scheduled about, probably about a month to two months in advance. In fact, we actually list them on our website. So there's a part on our website where it kind of— our itinerary is laid out, is telling you where you're gonna go.

Okay.

Um, and then at the same point, you know, there's been times where we change it because we realize we're going to be near something that would be cool to go. Like, we were in Colorado, uh, and we were going over to Salt Lake City, and we realized Moab, Utah was right in between us, and we just didn't— for some reason didn't realize it between, right, or before. And so at the last second, we cut out some of our reservation in Salt Lake City and just headed over to Moab, Utah because we could. Okay. So there's a little bit of spontaneity, but we do have somewhat of a rhythm of where we're going. Like, we're crossing Montana right now, heading into North Dakota, going across North Dakota into Minnesota, going all the way across Minnesota to Devil's Kettle because the kids want to see Devil's Kettle. Uh, because they had it in some book or YouTube video, things that shouldn't exist though. And we can do that, so why not? So we're going up there and then we'll go back down across Minnesota to South Dakota to Nebraska. I think we're going to shoot over to Denver, Colorado to see some family again, and then we're heading south because by then it'll be pretty wintry. And then we'll be in Texas and Arizona, New Mexico for the winter. Um, and then up the West Coast after things thaw out. So like spring, summer, and then we'll head back over to the, uh, Mideast.

Okay, so you kind of have a, a plan for like, you know, in the future, next, next couple months, or even next year, right?

Yep. We had, we had a wonderfully detailed plan where we spent a lot of time planning it, and then COVID happened, um, and COVID ruined everything because we were originally supposed to go up the East Coast of the US into Canada, across Canada, and come back in through Michigan and do like the Midwest states. And we had everything planned and thought out and spent a lot of time researching it, and then Canadian borders closed, the East Coast became the worst place to be.

Yeah.

And so we just scrambled and headed out to the Midwest because we really thought this would all be done by July.

Right.

And so we figured we'd go to wide open spaces, big national parks, and, you know, not see anybody. Things like that. And then, uh, um, because that part of the country still wasn't shut down because there's so many— so few people. Um, uh, and now, so we ended up kind of— so, you know, it's quasi— sometimes we're scrambling, making it up, and now we've got a little bit more of a rhythm to it. But it's kind of messed us up because now we've, we've gone from Florida to the middle of the country. We're doing like this ribbon loop back down, and then we're going to go up the West Coast, and then we'll just have to kind of shoot back across all the things we've already seen and done and just drive past it all to get back over to the East. And if COVID's still going on, who knows? It's really ruined our ability to, like I said, have events and gather and, right, you know, have a more effective tour.

No, yeah, I mean, definitely, definitely. But I, I— so you, now that you, um, that you're doing this, what, um, have you seen any benefits, uh, for your family? Like, what, what is it, uh, you know, some of the things that you see that, you know, you, you're gonna take away from this experience that you're going through?

So we're still— we're only 3 months in, so I think at the end of 2 years we're gonna have learned a lot. Um, uh, we are on top of each other. I mean, we are, you know, this is about as big of a camper as you can get. Um, and it, you know, fully stretched out, it's about 420 square foot, so it's, it's not large. Um, right. Uh, so we are always on top of each other. There is no, like, if you're in an argument with somebody, there's really no escaping. There's no going somewhere. Um, you know, We have the truck that's pulling the fifth wheel. So it's not like, you know, two vehicles can go two different ways.

Right.

So we are together all the time, which I genuinely enjoy, but we're just now coming out of the, it feels like a vacation mode. And it's starting to be like everyday life. So we're still adapting to—

Okay.

Just this severe shortage of space. And really just things like you wanna, like I have my phone in my wallet. There's just genuinely no place that's acceptable to put down my phone and wallet. I mean, if I, 'cause our kitchen counter is just, has, is so utilitarian.

Right, you're using it for everything.

Yeah, if I put that there, then someone else is moving it because they want to go make a snack or, you know, our dining room table is, it's part dining room table. It's part office with laptops. It's part, you know, homeschool table. It's part drawing and recreation table. It's part, you know, just catches stuff when we, when we come into the RV after we've been out for a while. I mean, everything is so multi-use and we don't have like the perfect rhythm. But really, and what it's going to come down to is just embracing the chaos. It's just realizing that there is no real genuine organization that you can adapt to. There's no— cleanliness is a whole different ballgame. So like, what's— I'm a little bit more of a clean freak. So like, I like things clean. And at home, they always stay clean. And here, you just realize it's never going to be clean. There's just no way. Things are always going to be out. Things are always going to be out. And so it's weird. It takes some getting used to, that's for sure. And so we're still in the stages of adapting. So I'm not going to profess that I have any great educational tidbits that I've learned. I'll probably have those at the end of 2 years, but not at the— what are we, 3 or 4 month mark? Okay, so, but we do get to do a lot of stuff and we, we are very active.

Okay, so yeah, that's interesting that you said you're kind of—

yeah, I mean, we're on bike rides and hikes, I mean, nearly daily, um, uh, because when you're in 420 square feet, you get out and do stuff.

So, right, no, yeah, that's interesting, like, you know, you said that you kind of are coming off a vacation, right? Kind of feels like a vacation, but now you're kind of transitioning into like, okay, this is where we're gonna be living and going through, um, you know, for the next whatever, year and a half, or whatever your plan is to do it. Um, so it's gonna be interesting to see like towards the end, like all your journey and everything. I mean, there's so many memories that you guys are going to create as a family, so many places you've gone through.

And I will say, I am— and if this would be a good tidbit for any parent, um, the video camera, as much as you can. They love the fact that we are documenting, um, and have a camera rolling a lot of times, like pretty much everywhere we go, um, every new trail in National Park, we bring a camera with us, um, and, uh, I mean, we, we, we go back and we watch our videos that we've already made, uh, because we were doing so much and it's like such— so many things in such a short amount of time that we've already kind of forgotten some of the things we did like 8 weeks ago. Like, so we have to watch a video and we're like, oh yeah, I forgot we did that. Um, but I love the fact that we have those and we're going to be able to look back on those, and especially in 10, 20 years, um, and that the kids are going to be able to see them Uh, and it almost makes me kind of regret that, you know, I had— there are no videos of me growing. I mean, they just, they just didn't exist. We didn't have video cameras.

Um, yeah.

And that's just something like, you know, now that I'm becoming an older person, uh, man, that'd be so cool to see, see me as a kid, you know.

Yeah.

And, uh, my wife's family, they did have cameras, and so there is a lot of footage her. And so like the kids, like our kids like to watch footage of my wife when she was a little girl, you know, dancing or pretending to be a newscaster or things like that, or on a hike. Um, and so the fact that we're gonna have all that is, is, is great. And we're also going a step beyond and editing it down so it's not like these long boring videos, like kind of cut down into like a little bit easier to watch and things like that, right?

Yeah, no.

But I think if there's something other parents could do is, man, just break out that camera and, and, and record video. Because I was never that way, and now that we're doing it, I'm so thankful that we are. No, because I've always been like, live in the moment and not through, you know, don't look at the lens and things like that. But, uh, and we don't, you know, record the entire time, but like there's certain sections, you know, take pictures and You know, we videotape when we get to like a waterfall or something like that. We'll break out the camera, videotape kids about it, talk about it, how was the hike, things like that. Yeah. And I'm glad we do that, even though it's a little weird sometimes to be recorded that much.

No, yeah, but I, you know, like you said, this is something that is gonna, it's gonna be for them, right? Like when they get older, they're gonna be able to even show their significant other like, hey, look, this is what I was doing with my dad. When I was whatever, and it's, it's just a treasure, you know. It's such—

and it creates kind of like the, the, you know, the dinner, uh, table we were talking about earlier. Now you can kind of make the TV that you love so much and make that the bonding force of, all right, now we're not watching, you know, who got kicked off the island on Survivor. We can just sit there and watch some movies and reminisce about all these things we've done as a family, reminisce about that hike we did, reminisce about how cute you were when you were 4 and things like that. But that can be a, you know, a bonding agent for the family as well.

No, for sure. Yeah, definitely. Just popping up that, you know, those old home movies and kind of like looking at the differences. Hey, you remember you had this, or you broke, you know, a bone in here, or whatever, you know, whatever was happening at that moment, um, or even at that time. Hey, you know, remember we were in the pandemic and This is what was going on. But now it's like we're at a different point in our lives. So that's great. I mean, but that's just something that—

and that's something any family can do. I mean, you can videotape your walk around the neighborhood, right? The time the kid decided to do the lemonade stand out front, or the new shoes, or the hand-me-down bike you just got, first time riding it, things like that. You know, it's not like you have to travel the country to do that. There's so many opportunities.

No, for sure. And just kind of like, um, I think it's worthwhile. No, for sure. And then you kind of just put that thought in my mind because, you know, I use my cell phone to, to record, but it's running out of space now because I record so much. I need to invest in a, in a camera and then a memory card and make sure that, you know, you know, I'm able to have that.

Yeah. Throw it on external drive and get, get, you know, there's plenty of cheap free editing softwares, but then you can kind of start to, um, you know, you learn how to store all that footage and kind of make it by month and label it correctly and store it by year and month and folder so that way it doesn't get lost in just, um, of data. Um, but then kind of go through it and you can start to edit it down and get rid of the crap, you know, you know, a basic editing software will give you the ability to cut cut, you know, paste it together. Yeah, maybe some background music, and that way the videos are a little bit more palatable to watch.

Yeah, for sure.

Who knows, that might even turn, you know, into a little hobby you do, you know, instead of watching TV at night, um, you know, after the kids go to bed, to, um, you know, maybe a little way to earn some extra side bucks and do it for other families. Or yeah, you know, who knows, a full-blown career, because we know videos aren't going anywhere. They're only going to get bigger though. So, you know, I do think that is a helpful aspect of being able to watch them because you don't want to sit there and watch boring shaky footage, you know, like you're watching the Blair Witch Project because then it's just, it's not fun to watch. But, you know, if Mom or Dad can sit down and, and take those 10, the last 10 videos we made of things we did and then chop them into, you know, little 30-second, 45-second pieces of kids laughing and running and then stitch them all together in a basic software, in a basic video editing software. Yeah, then you have a nice little 5-minute video, um, that's fun to watch and you can pop in anytime and your neighbors don't mind watching it because it's not super boring.

Exactly.

You know, and, and, you know, like I said, yeah, I, I think that can create real family bonding time and it does.

No, yeah, I can, I can definitely see that. I can definitely see that, and I do do that with some of our things. And even my daughter, she's only 3 and a half years old, but she enjoys watching herself or watching us do things like, oh no, that was me doing, you know, going to the waterfall or going here. And it's like, yeah, that, you know, like you said, it creates a bond.

Even simple things like, even simple things like the next time you bake cupcakes and let her join in, you know.

Yeah, exactly.

They love to watch themselves do things.

Yeah, that's funny. All right, man, well, we— I think we've been here for like a couple hours now, so hours.

Yep.

Yeah, so I mean, we had a lot of— I mean, I had a really good time talking to you, a lot of great conversations, and I'm just looking forward to seeing your journey and seeing, you know, what that creates within your family. And man, I support 100% that and your message that you put out. So I appreciate you. Yeah, I appreciate you. I appreciate what you're doing because it takes a lot of courage for someone to say, you know what, I'm going to pack everything, sell my business, and go travel in an RV and with my family. So man, kudos to you. More power to you. Yeah, I'm looking forward to just kind of staying in touch and see where you're going next.

Perfect. All right, definitely stay in touch.