S3 E 17 with Author Gramps Jeffrey "I Don't Want To Turn 3"

This is the 100% Dad podcast with Gramps Jeffrey today. This is season 3, episode 17. Gramps Jeffrey is a pen name. What's the real name?

My real name is Mark Joseph.

Mark Joseph. So how did you get Jeffrey out of Mark Joseph?

Well, Jeffrey happens to be my middle name. I found it when my kids were starting at 1, 2, and 3 years old, my grandkids. They could say the G. So I figured I'll be Gramps to them. And then Jeffrey is my middle name. And the reason I chose my middle name, J-E-F-F-R-E-Y, is my wife has always spelled my middle name wrong. She always spelled it J-E-F-F-E-R-Y. So I figured if I put it on a book, she'll learn how to spell it. And that's how I became Gramps Jeffrey.

Has it helped?

Yes. Yeah. Okay.

So the book is I Don't Want to Turn 3. Uh, let's say it explores what goes through a toddler's mind that parents are so desperate to understand, based on true experiences that you had with 6 grandkids that were born to each of your 3 millennial daughters. Uh, so you've got 3 daughters. What are their ages?

My daughters— one's going to turn 40, one's 38, and one's 36. And I have a son too, but, uh, he's a bachelor and he's going to turn 43 this Got it.

And so this book spawned from a COVID experience, if I remember right in your bio.

Yeah, you know, living this past year because of the pandemic caused by the COVID isolation, except for being able to be with my family, you know, gave me a special time to interact and with my grandkids. I gotta tell you what a trip that was because all 6 of these kids are completely different personalities, but the one thing they do have in common common, this curiosity, you know, and how excited they get when they do accomplish something. So watching them grow year to year and how they interact with each other is really the basis for this book.

Sounds fun. So your, your grandkids are in— by virtue of that, your kids live close to you out in Scottsdale, Arizona?

No, what happened is because of pandemic, I was able to— I've got two kids, grandkids in Texas and two in Florida. So they all came in for about 6 weeks during the pandemic. So I was able to have my 2 kids here in Scottsdale and the 4 outside the state, you know, all together for 6 weeks. And so that really is the basis for this book because this is— the book is a true book. It really happened. In other words, if you take a look at the book, you know, the COVID of the book and so forth, I Don't Want to Turn 3, all the pictures are based on pictures that I took of these kids in action. So for instance, on the COVID of the book is Levi and Jackson in the bathtub. And that was an actual picture. And we sent them to the illustrator to make them kind of fun. But it's based on a true story. This happened. I mean, this is when Jordan was turning 3, and he was fighting with his cousins and stealing their toys. And then Mom and Dad— and Dad was the hero in the book. You know, this— you talk about dads. Dad was the hero in the book. He was the one that got all the kids together, you know, to work this out, to figure it out. And Olivia, who is the eldest, 8-year-old, she came up with the idea, let's give all these toys to the homeless downtown. And so that's how this book evolved. But, you know, the real thought of this book, the whole lesson behind this book is, you know, at what age do we begin to take responsibility for our actions? Is it 3 years old? Is it 13 years old? Is it 23? You know, I'm a baby boomer. I've got plenty of guys and girls 63 years old that still don't take any responsibility for their actions. So that's really the basis for the book.

Interesting. So you stuck— how many people was that total that you brought into, uh, uh, Scottsdale?

I've got the 4 grandkids, the 4 parents, and then the other parents live in Scottsdale, so they were over here, had a lot of sleepovers and things like that, but you know, they were still at their house. So that's what we did for about 6 weeks.

That's a long time to cram yourselves in a house with each other.

Well, you know, it, it was worth it, you know, because as a grandfather, it really gave me a chance to, to bond with these kids and, uh, you know, and to grow with them. As you well know, growing up a kid today is a lot different than when, when I was growing up. You know, I grew up in the '50s and '60s, and my uncle lived up the street, my grandmother lived a couple blocks away, and so we had a whole unit there. But in today's world, you know, my family, you know, is scattered all over the country. So how do you bond with them? How do you keep in touch with them? You know, how do you initiate and make these kids part of your family? So, you know, when you think about it, little kids are not going to pick up the phone and call Grandma and Grandpa. You know, they got other priorities. And, you know, they're 2, 3, 4 years old. They're not going to do that. So how do you, as a grandparent, really stay in touch and, and make a difference in these kids' lives? So I'll give you an example of what we did. I'm sure your listeners have different things that they probably did. But, you know, so the one thing that I learned during these 6 weeks with these kids is they all love dinosaurs. You know, dinosaur seems to be the language for 2, 3, and 4, 5-year-olds. You know, I see them when they're talking to their friends, dinosaurs is what brings them all together. So what we decided to do is, you know, we've got 6 dinosaurs here in the house. And because the kids in Texas and Florida, knew our house, knew our yard, we decided that every night we were going to have the dinosaurs do something different. So for instance, we had the dinosaurs in the refrigerator eating blueberries one night. Another night we had them by the sink with Grandma washing dishes with soap on their noses. Another night we had them playing the piano. Another night we had them walking up the steps. So we had 50 different nights where the dinosaurs were actually doing something in our house.

So is that, is that something that was done collectively as a family, or is that something that was just a surprise that magically happened overnight?

It was an idea that my wife and I had when the kids left. We were saying to ourselves, okay, we had them here, now how are you going to keep in touch with them? You know, because they're gone.

What are we going to do to keep in touch with them?

So that was just our idea of coming up with an idea to do this. So what happened was is now we became part of the routine of these kids that were in our living nearby us. You know, they would take their bath, they would read their book with their parents, and then they would say, "What are the dinosaurs doing tonight?" So parents would get on my wife's iPhone, we get on FaceTime, and they say, "Where's Gramps? Where's Gramps? What are the dinosaurs doing tonight?" So it was our way of keeping in touch with these kids during COVID And I'm sure your listeners have other ways that they're doing it, but it's important. Because when you think about it, you know, we only have a limited time with kids. You know, you have 18 years, probably less when they get into their teenage years. But so you can have an influence. So you've got to come up with ways to figure out how do I keep in touch, how can I influence them, how can I make them better people.

That's well said. So the whole bringing them to the house thing is awesome. A lot of families do that for like maybe a week, maybe 2 weeks, and they do like a, a family week or reunion or beach week, something like that, where they'll rent one of those big coastal houses or a big maybe like conference center in the woods or a mountain somewhere, kind of like a retreat, and they'll do big family gatherings. Is that something you guys had done in the past and you just wanted to kind of— you just brought it home this time because of COVID or is that your first time really gathering together like that for an extended period of time as a family?

Yeah, this was an event caused by COVID. Well, we probably would not have done that because the youngest was 1 year old, you know, and we hadn't seen him, you know, we weren't there when he was born because he's—

so there's no past history of that?

No, there is no past history of that. Okay, now, good point, we will continue to do it. You're right, this is— we set something to do this, you know, because I am sure that you have recognized that this generation of young kids, these kids 1 to 10 years old, are the greatest generation this country has ever produced. You know, when you think about it, as soon as they come out of the womb, they're, they're learning about the internet, they're learning about iPhones, they're learning about tablets, they're learning about computer. I mean, I didn't know anything about the internet until I was 40 years old. So you've got these kids now that are coming out, and they, they are so much more advanced than we ever were. So it's up to us as parents and grandparents to round that out and bring them back to reality and give them ideas and thoughts to how to improve upon the technology that they're already learning.

Yeah, sure, that makes a lot of sense. Not to hate the technology because it is such a great advance. They are going to have opportunities and, you know, an advantage in life almost because of that, the amount of information they can gain, what they can learn, the skills they can develop and the way they can work and things like that. But yeah, to, to balance that with maybe some more traditional aspects of fun and family and, and getting outdoors and being, you know, together face to face and interacting, playing games, things like that, where it's not so online based. It's certainly— those are valuable things that we want to make sure we don't ignore.

Yeah, technology is there to help us achieve our goals. Okay, and so we need to use this technology to teach these kids, you know, how to learn other things. I mean, if you think about it, the role of grandparents, and obviously parents too, is to teach children how to think, not what to think. But we need to teach our kids how to think, and the way you teach kids how to think is to question them and to get involved with them and pull them off the internet and do experiences you know, that are just not on the screen. And so that's really our role today.

Sure, give them a different perspective. And the easy thing with the internet now is you just become a headline reader. You read the headline, you read the meme that shows up on your social feed, and you buy in because you read it once and so it must be true. And you're not, a lot of people, I mean, if you really look at how people read the news, not many people are clicking into a headline reading the article and actually spending time on that page, reading it and analyzing it, getting it in depth. For the most part, even if they click into that headline, they skim, they read subheadings, they kind of get to the bottom real quick, and they're off that page in a few seconds, which is not a plausible time to really consume the content. So we have a, we have a lot of headline readers, a lot of, uh, a lot of not deep thought going on. And you're right, I mean, That's a learned skill. That's something that needs to be taught and talked about and starts with mom and dad asking questions that are not yes and no, that are not closed, they're open-ended and leave room for debate and questioning and all that sorts of fun stuff.

Talking about reading, you know, it really is important that we get our kids and our families involved in the habit of reading a book every night or a couple times a day. Yeah, when you think about it, why do the— what are the benefits of reading a book with a child as they're learning all the technology at the same time? Well, the first benefit, I think, when you, you know, again, picture a kid who's sitting on Grandpa's lap, 2, 3, 4 years old, you know, so they're sitting there reading a book. The first thing that happens, it becomes— you become bonding with that kid, you know. It's only 20 minutes, but it's a chance for you to really bond and to relate to them. You know, another reason why we should be always reading to our children is it supports listening skills. Now, you and I both know as we are growing older that listening skills is the best skill that we can develop. You know, it helps us communicate. It helps us learn. It helps us sell. You know, so we've got to be able to develop early on these children a chance to listen. And if they listen for 20 minutes there, you know, that's a skill that you can really develop at a very young age. Another reason, you know, we should be reading books to our kids is you know, it supports cognitive and language development. I mean, there's lots of words in these books that they don't understand. It gives you a chance to explain it to them. There's lots of words in these books I don't understand, so we may have to look them up. But, you know, it really helps with developing that, you know, the cognitive and language skills. And another reason we should be reading books to our kids, it develops attention span. I mean, if you think about kids 2, 3, 4, 5 years old, You know, they're bouncing off the wall all day long. If you've got them in your lap for 20 minutes and you can help increase their attention span, it helps with their self-concentration, self-discipline skills. So those are all of the things that we can do as parents and grandparents and why we've got to read books.

Yeah, I mean, not to mention critical thinking skills, kind of reevaluating what did you hear here, what did you, what did you learn from this, what did you gain from it. When we finish the book, can you Kind of reiterate that story and see if they're actively listening. Creative thinking skills, when you're actually, you can look past it, asking them what they think is going to happen next, you know, really looking at the imagery of the book. And, you know, you can almost create a whole new book just looking at the images together and enforce those creative thinking skills by, you know, creating tangents or divergence of what you're reading. You know, I was reading a study not too long ago when a dad reads a book to his kids repetitively, they have an 80— I think it was an 80% increase in their verbal skills, which you wouldn't think from reading a book nightly to your kids. But for some reason, when a dad reads, verbal skills increase versus when a mom reads, the reading skills increase. So it's interesting that, you know, and you mentioned from a grandparent's perspective, it's bonding there as well. There's a lot of little small benefits not only from reading but from different people reading with them.

Oh yeah, and going back to the concept that we've got to teach our children how to think, you know, and what you said is right. Before you even sit down to read a book, ask them, "What do you think is going to happen in this book? Why do you— what do you think is going to happen?" Then while you're reading the book, you know, "Who are the characters in this book? What are the settings? Can you relate to them? Does anything in this book sound familiar to you? Is it something happening in your life? Is it fantasy?" You know, at the end of the book, "What was your favorite part of the book?" Much like we should be, you know, Dinner time, you ask your kids, "What was your favorite part of the day?" Well, you know, "What was your favorite part of the book? What did you learn from that?" But the interaction, the questions, is how we're going to help these kids, you know, learn on top of all the technology that they're learning.

We just read, we got, um, there's a tangent here, uh, one of the kids picked out the Curious George book, uh, from a used bookstore. It must have been like a 1950s or '60s version of it because the inside's not even colored. It's black and white with some reds into it. So like the man with the yellow hat didn't even have a yellow hat, it was a grayscale hat. But it was the old school version, which I'm sure is banned nowadays in most books because, you know, after the man in the yellow hat kidnaps this poor monkey from the jungle and then takes it over on a boat, they, you know, sit down and have a nice dinner, then they sit down and have a nice smoke, they have a nice pipe together, then, you know, something happens and the fat policeman and the skinny policeman come and take the monkey away and they send them to prison. And I'm like, yeah, I don't think this is a book that they'll allow anymore. And I looked it up, and yeah, that book has been banned, along with some of the Dr. Seuss books, or that version of the book. Um, a complete, complete tangent to it, but we were having fun with that one of the different imagery and, uh, words they used, uh, in a different era.

Yeah, you know, the, the goal is for us to create the curiosity that builds imaginations. Now obviously I want them to read my book, but there's 100 other great books out there. Yeah, we'll create the curiosity that builds imaginations.

Sure. And your book, so what's the, the plot line and the lessons learned from the book that you wrote?

Well, the, all 6 of the cousins, you know, they're interacting, playing with each other, and they, uh, one day they fight, they steal toys. That's what Jordan, Jordan gets caught. And then the dad is able to sit there, all the kids together, and gets them down, and they figure out what happened, why they're doing it, and then they all agree to give everything that they have been, you know, fighting over to the homeless downtown. So that's basically the thought of the book, you know. But, but, you know, the real thing is, when does a toddler understand the difference between me and us? You know, that's the theme of the book. And I think what happens in my family happens in every other family in the world, is, you know, how do you get kids to get along? What do you need to do to make sure that they share with each other rather than fight with each other? And so that's really the theme of the book.

And so what did you discover? What, what age does that start? Did you learn?

I learned that it may not start at any age with anybody. But it should be starting right when they're turning 2 to 3. That's when I saw, because now that I've had a few of my kids turn 3, like for instance, I was just at my granddaughter Grace's 3rd birthday in Texas last month, and she was turning 3. And so she was, she got a bunch of trucks for her birthday, and she and her brother Jackson who's 4 and a half, started fighting over the trucks. You know, they're her trucks, but he wanted it. But so she got up and she looked at Jackson and she said to him, "I need my space." And she actually went to the one side of the sofa, and Jackson looks at her and says, "I need my space too." And he went to his side of the sofa. And so they didn't learn that on the internet. They didn't learn that watching television. I am sure they learned it one day when their mother got so frustrated with both of them, says, I need my space, and she actually walks away. But that's the lesson she taught them, and it happened to be a good one. So now, rather than starting to fight with each other, they need their space.

That's fair. So this— I mean, it's almost reminding me of a book called QBQ, uh, Question Behind the Question, by a guy named John Miller, uh, where it's kind of about, uh, personal responsibility, not blaming others, and just kind of figuring out what your role is in your life, if that makes sense. I just— I don't know if you've heard of that book, but do you see a similar correlation there?

Yeah, I've never heard of that book, but that sounds like a good book I should be picking up.

It's a big one out there. It sold a lot of copies, you know, like in the millions. Yeah, I think the name is John Miller. We had him on the podcast. But yeah, the book's QBQ, Question Behind the Question. It's all about you know, not blaming other people in your organization. And, you know, what can you do to affect change and kind of take control? Uh, you know, it's basically about personal responsibility, which just seems to be the common theme here with this book, just at a 3-year-old level.

Exactly. And we can't lose sight that we are the role models for these kids. You know, the parents are, the grandparents are. They reflect what we do. So, you know, I— if you say a cuss word to a little 2 or 3-year-old, I can guarantee you that you're going to hear that same word 3 or 4 more times that day. You know, now the best way to offset that is to, as soon as you say a cuss word, start talking about things they like, like, uh, you know, the bananas and blueberries and dinosaurs and things like that. You know, that'll help offset it. But they reflect you. We are the role model. So if we are on our cell phones all day long, you know, kids are going to grow up to be on their cell phones all day long. We're on our computers all day long. Kids are going to grow up. So we have got to be able to set that example. You know, we've got to be able to step back and show them different ways to do things besides what they learn on television and the internet.

Well, and I like that you guys got to a point, if the story correlates true to what happened in the book to what happened in real life, that they wanted to give to an organization and give to charity. And so we get into the foundations of, of giving and what that does to a person and how it makes them feel, which is to some people a whole new world. And we've always kind of said on 100% Dad platform, if you're really looking for to find a way to teach gratitude and, you know, contentment and things like that, helping other people is a big way to do that. Being charitable is a big way to do that. Volunteering your time is a big way to do that. You know, volunteering at a nursing home will give you a lot of perspective in life as you meet with older people and you see how some people are lonely, some people are miserable, some people have lots of regrets. It can really change your perspective on how you think about life to see someone who's in those end stages. So when you guys, or when your grandkids got to the decision where they wanted to donate their choice to charity, was that something that was influenced by past behavior? Was that something that was being influenced by the grandparents or parents, or is that something they were able to come with on their own?

They came up with that on their own. It came from the, the oldest. She was 8 at the time, Olivia, and she's the one— she saw all this conflict with all her little cousins, and she saw that it wasn't going to probably get resolved. And it happened at her school that week, they were having a drive for the homeless kids downtown, and she says, that's what we have to do. And she's the oldest cousin, and the younger cousins kind of looked at her and they didn't understand it. The ones that are, you know, 2 and 3 didn't really understand too much of that. But as she said and told them, what it, you know, it tells you about peer, uh, you know, she's a peer and she was able to convince them. You know, obviously the father drove that, you know, he's the one that gave, gave her permission to kind of like, let's go do this, backed her up. But it came from one of her, one of the kids. And, you know, if you can step back and think about that happening in your family, And that'd be great if it could, but—

And so how did the kids feel during that process and afterwards?

At first they didn't want to do it. They didn't understand it. You know, they, they look at their dolls and their toys and their dinosaurs and, "This is mine. This is my thing. You know, I'm not sharing with you. I'm not going to give it to someone else." But as Olivia kept talking and she was saying, you know, helping others really helps us. So they reluctantly did it, and I think after they did it, when you saw them putting these toys into the box and getting them ready to go, I think they finally realized that they were helping someone else.

So were they present when they actually handed them over?

Yes, yes, yeah, they were, they were present when they, when they actually, they gave it to them. Obviously it was during COVID So, you know, one person got out of the car and brought it over, but they were there.

So was that like a time of like regret? Was that a time of excitement? How were they at that moment of transaction?

I think they may have been a little confused. Okay, it's my toy today, it's your toy tomorrow. Um, but once they kept talking about it, and once the older kids, you know, the ones that were 6 and 5 started to support what Olivia was doing, the 2- and 3-year-olds kind of started to understand. So it just shows, you know, it takes— to raise a child, it takes a village, okay? Especially with families that may be just single family, it's a dad or mom that are raising the children. It takes a lot of people to influence and create the morals and the beliefs what a child is. You know, it takes the aunts and the uncles, it takes the cousins, it should take the grandparents, you know, and that's why us baby boomers, grandparents, have got to get involved with helping to raise these kids. Because, you know, number one, you know, we're older, we've got a lot of experience. You know, what happens, you know, as you grow decade after decade, you become wiser, you become more experienced because you make a lot more mistakes. So by making those mistakes, you start to learn how to deal with them. So that's why we as grandparents have got to be part of the village raising these kids. Because all these experiences help mold a kid to what they're going to be tomorrow.

Okay, so there's a lot of tangents off of that one, uh, so because we've written on the past about that whole village versus independent mentality, because I am definitely of the mindset where I like to be independent, I like to be left alone. I listen, I have my family we created over here, we don't need anybody else, and that's kind of always been my way of thinking, which I very much disagree with now. I still like the fact that we can be independent and we can make it on our own, but at a very real sense— and that works when everything's going well— but at a very real sense, it's nice to have grandparents nearby. It's nice to have family to lean on, not only just for like the, the easy things like babysitting so we can go on dates as mom, dad, husband, and wife, and that, you know, family events are more fun, you know, Easter, Christmases, Thanksgivings, things like that. Um, but really, if you get into analyzing the data of when a family has some sort of traumatic event— a layoff, a death of one of the parents, uh, some sort of real strong stressor— having that village, having a support network around you, both family, church support, community, that kind of stuff, uh, it makes a big difference. Because that independent family who might be able to do well on their own, the second something goes wrong can really unravel and falls apart. And then there's not the emotional, the financial, the, you know, spiritual, the every, every level of support there. So I'm a big believer in having that village now than I was before as a younger, overconfident 20-something-year-old that didn't really come from that type of family. And, and then on the outside, you talk about grandparents involvement, where I do think they should be involved. I, I'd want to stress, um, that they're the grandparent, not the parents. And so there's a— I think there's a balance there, being involved and utilizing that wisdom versus crossing that line, overstepping, and trying to dictate parents on how to raise their kids, because it's probably not going to be received well if you do do that. But so while the wisdom can be nice, the counsel can be nice, Um, the dictating and trying to raise grandkids as your kids is probably not going to be the best, best path that works out for you, if that makes sense.

Yeah, as your grandparent, you have to believe that you raised your kids to be smart enough to take care of their kids. So you're just an advisor.

And, and, and, and, oh, attention of that, and if you didn't, then you probably don't have a strong enough role to then raise the grandkids.

Yeah, I mean, the great thing about being grandparents is you give the kids back. You know, they come for a weekend, they come for a few days, you give them back. You know, you don't have to deal with them for the day-in, day-out kinds of things. But going back to, you know, why grandparents really do need to get involved, you know, during COVID people 65 and older, they're 16% of the population, but during COVID they were 75%— are 75% of the deaths. So, you know, I read last week that because of COVID you know, the average lifespan of an American today is 2 years less than before COVID because of all the new numbers coming in. So, you know, we are all here today, gone tomorrow. So as a grandparent, if you have any grandparents listening to the show, get involved because you may not be here tomorrow, you know, and so your influence could be limited. I mean, we all can think of things that our grandparents did with us that we remember today, the good things and the bad. And so those are the memories we've got to create so when you're 40 or 50, that you remember your grandparents, you remember some of the major influences they had on you. And you're right, you know, grandparents aren't going to raise the kid day in and day out unless they have to. And but we've got to create those memories that you think back that help think that family is great.

Yeah, so you can flip that from the other side, from the dads that are listening, to, you know, especially if you're not close to each other in terms of geographically, if, if, you know, your parents live or grandparents live on the, uh, other coast or just far away, states away, uh, and you get together and you see them for Christmas or you see them for Thanksgiving, you know, maybe not both you really start to think, you know, hey, even if we got another 10, 15 years with them, really, you might only see them, you know, it's not that you have 10 or 15 years, it's you really are only going to see them maybe 10 or 15 more times. And if you're seeing them every other year, you know, it's like you're going to, you actually visit with them 7 more times before they die. It might be 15 years, but you're not together for that whole time. And so it's, you know, it's certainly a different way to think about it.

That's a very heavy thought. I never thought about it that way, but you're right, we do have limited time.

Yeah, no, it gets real. Um, all right, uh, is there any other messages out of that book that you wanted to talk about? Anything you wanted to, uh, connect with the, the listeners about?

Well, if I was to leave you with one thing, it would be when you love you will teach others how to love. And again, our job is to teach our kids how to think. So show that love. You know, let's, let's, let's just make sure that we are teaching these kids how to love, because in this world, in today, if you read the headlines, that's a tough thing.

And, and, uh, I got a follow-up to your, to your close-up. So how do you show that in your family? How are you making sure that translates?

Well, either, you know, we talked about questioning, you know, questioning whether we're reading a book or questioning what we're doing day in, day out. There's one question that I wish that every family would ask all their kids every day, and that question is, "What did you do today that was nice to someone else?" Think about that. If we had— the first time you ask your 3-year-old, "What did you do today that was nice to someone else?" They really don't understand it, you know. I shared my trucks with my cousin. You know, that was a nice thing you did today. But if you start to ask that every day, what did you do today that was nice to someone else? You know, by the third or fourth day, they're going to say, I've got to come up with an answer because they're going to ask me this. So, you know, maybe they'll help an old lady across the street. Maybe they'll open up a door for someone else. But we want to get that into their thought so that, you know, they're thinking, what can I do to help someone else? So I would encourage every family to ask every little kid this question every single day. Can you imagine how that could change this world, this United States, in another 20, 30 years if this whole generation is asking themselves, what did I do nice to someone else?

Yeah, that's something to really think about. Uh, where do we find this book?

You can find it on Amazon or Barnes Noble or about 100 other sites on the internet, or come to my site, it's grantsjeffrey.com. And, uh, or if any of your listeners want to continue this conversation, please email me. I'd love to keep talking. It's grantsjeffrey@gmail.com.

All right, beautiful. Well, we appreciate you coming on. Hope you have an awesome day, and, uh, we'll be sure to stick in that link on this feed so that anybody who's interested can, uh, go check out that book.

Thanks, Townsend. Appreciate you inviting me.

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