S3E18 How Being an Entrepreneur almost ruined his family with Jim Sabellico

All right, this is the 100% Dad podcast with Townsend Russell, season 3, episode 18, with Jim— should have asked how to pronounce the last name a few seconds ago— Sibelico. Is that right? You—

yes, you nailed it.

Sibelico. Well done. Perfect pronunciation. Enunciation. I'm not sure what the— what the proper way to pronounce or enounce. You're a father of, I'm guessing, 2 based on the picture behind you.

Confirmed.

Is that a boy and a girl?

Boy and a girl.

All right. And you're from New York. Is that the city or upstate or somewhere in between?

I'm, uh, I'm actually from Long Island, pretty much smack dab in the middle of it. And, uh, yes, isn't it? No, it is not.

Okay, so Long Island, where is that? I should know this.

Uh, east of the city. Uh, so, you know, you have like quote unquote mainland New York, and then there's Manhattan in the city, and then To the, to the right of that, east of that, you have Loyal. Okay.

You sent me a message, uh, it sounds like you're an entrepreneur. You had some success early in life, uh, sold some businesses. You're in a few of them now. And, and, uh, that constant work, I guess, became a problem in your relationship with your spouse, and, and you realized maybe you weren't being there as much as you should be or could be for your kids. Is that sound about right?

That sounds, yeah, very accurate. That was, that was a, a trap I fell into early, you know, having early success and like winning at the quote unquote business game and, and making money and having all the things that kind of come with that gave me a very bad sense of what success really meant.

So today, how old are the kids today?

8 and 5.

Okay. And you've been in business for how long?

Um, I mean, I started my first when I was 8 years old myself, uh, and then there's been a variety of businesses since then.

That's right. So you did lawn mowing when you were a kid, which I did the same thing, which, by the way, I think is a great way for kids to learn, you know, some business skills and just some responsibility. And I've been disappointed in my own neighborhood that there's been not one single kid that's ever put up a flyer or come by and offered to mow my lawn, because I'd hired him in a second because I hate doing it. And yeah, but yeah, not one single kid in the, what, 12 years I've lived there has ever stopped by. And I'm not sure what the reason behind that is, but I feel like when I was a kid, I had a competition in the neighborhoods for, for mowing lawns. But all right, so you started at 8, but so you went to college, I assume, around 18?

Did—

okay, did you have any like real businesses going on there, or were they just kind of side projects?

Uh, I did have two real businesses when I was in college. I had I was in an automotive accessory store that I was a partner in, so like car alarms, wheels and tires, that sort of thing. And then I had the web design business, which was kind of a side hustle at that time.

Okay. So how do you become a partner in an auto parts store?

I was actually a customer there originally, and then they needed some help with their web stuff. And then I started kind of helping them just as this weird mix of a customer and a friend and then developed some friendships. And then opportunity arose for them to kind of start up a new store and they were looking for someone to help with that end of it. And it was a nice mix of a passion/business opportunity where I kind of just jumped in.

Okay. So you brought some knowledge and skill to the table and they gave you some equity in exchange for that. You didn't have to bring money to the table.

In that case, I brought both actually. That was a financial investment too.

Oh, how much did you put into that?

Um, I think it wasn't much, like $15,000 at the time. Nothing crazy.

$15,000 is pretty good for an 18-year-old. Yep. Uh, and what was that? Is that all from lawn mowing, or were you doing other things before that? Or you're—

um, yeah, other stuff before that. Um, see, at that time I was working in a drugstore I was a busboy. There was always like very weird random like side hustles. Like I used to bring people back to my house on lunch break and install wallpapers and ringtones on their Nextel phones when that was like a big deal when that first came out. So you pick up $20 here and there doing all sorts of odd jobs. But there was always, always something cooking for me.

You diagnosed with ADD?

Yeah. Uh, not officially though.

I've never tested, so, but probably most likely unknown.

I'm sure on some level. Yeah.

Okay. Uh, all right. So 18, you go to college, you have a couple side hustles. Uh, uh, I guess, do you graduate college?

I do.

Okay. And then are, are you just running those businesses through that or do you sell them or, or exit them and, and do something else? Um, I'm just getting some background here just so I know where to go with this.

Yeah, absolutely. So my college degree was really out of obligation more so than need. I didn't really want to go. I got a great scholarship, got into like the honors program and just went with it because there was an expectation that that's just what you do. I didn't really necessarily have a need in my opinion to have that college degree and it's not like I I said, hey, I'm gonna go get an MBA and then I'm gonna go start a business with that MBA. Like it wasn't a stepping stone for me. It was just something that I felt like I had to do family-wise. Um, so I did, but during that time I already had businesses in motion and then other ones after that.

So was that the same expectation or was that put on from, uh, mom and dad?

Um, it was definitely more mom and dad. Not like they outwardly said, hey, we expect you to do this, but it was just what everyone did. It was, um, you know, my brother and sister had, had done it. And, uh, like I said, I got a good scholarship and a good offer. So, um, why not at that point?

I mean, you know, I, I, I don't love college. I'm not totally diehard against it. Um, I'm, I'm kind of against going into debt and going to like the big cool party school just because you want to. And you get a 4-year, uh, you know, you get a 4-year degree and 4 years of partying, or, or a 4-year degree and 5, 6 years of partying in some cases. Uh, I dropped out after my sophomore year and I was doing pretty good, but I, I learned more in the real world than I did, uh, in actual college. So I don't love it in that sense. Um, but I think that's a great— if you do want your kids to go to college and you're willing to pay for it and you have the money for it, you can afford it to lay that expectation down early, to kind of— you're just kind of raised like you said, you— it was just kind of expected the entire time, you know. If, if mom and dad kind of create these expectations that this is, this is what you do, this is what we live, you just, you kind of go along with it because that's what you know. And so that can, I think, can be parlayed into a whole bunch of different, uh, into a whole bunch of different topics on how you feel about drinking, drugs, sex, religion. Uh, you know, politics, uh, you know, just family values, um, in addition to college, you know, what are the expectations? What is the life we live? And then, you know, the kind of the normal we set for our kids. Uh, sorry, that was a side tangent I just jumped off on. But all right, so you're in college, you graduate, you do it out of obligation. Um, I assume mom and dad paid for this?

Uh, yeah.

Oh, you scholarship, you said?

Yeah, it was a bit of a mix, but yes. The additional part was, uh, was taken care of by them.

What'd you end up getting your degree in?

Uh, marketing.

Well, that worked out well.

Yeah. Uh, I don't technically use any of the things I've learned. Um, most, most people— I didn't make a single friend in college. I couldn't name one person. Um, I could actually only name one professor I ever had who was the one who laughed at me for, uh, never paying attention in class and told me that I was gonna fail. Yeah, because I would, you know, I would go to the school. I was still— I had the business at the time, which I was working as many hours as I could. I commuted back and forth to college, so I would always show up, take the class, leave. I sat in the back of the class, hardly ever took out a notebook, just observed. So she pulled me aside one day and told me that I was likely to fail the class because I wasn't paying attention. And I'll never forget getting a perfect 100 on that next final exam. The face that she had when she handed me that paper back was satisfying.

That's funny. Well, hey, props to you for actually going to class. I almost never went to class unless it was a really tough one. I loved college because I could show up, I could take the midterm, I could take the final, and I was good at taking tests. And I was horrible at attendance. I was horrible at homework, those kind of things. But yeah, give me a midterm and a final and I'll get an A. Both. That's what I loved about college. So props for you for actually showing up. But so you're in the marketing world now, you have been for a long time, and you know, straight from the horse's mouth, what you learned, uh, in getting a marketing degree has not been applicable to the marketing world.

For me personally, yes. I wouldn't say that's, that's a, you know, 100% applicable to everyone. There's definitely some people who are going to learn better from a book. You know, I happen to have been doing this in various side hustles and finding ways to make money and sell stuff to people since I was a little kid. So it was more validating the things that I knew, maybe having conversations, rather than learning it for the first time, which is what some people might do in that scenario.

Okay. Sounds like you came from a home with mom and dad, kind of a normal upbringing.

Yep.

Siblings.

Okay.

Uh, so you graduate college, so 18, 19, about 22 years old. How long before you get married?

I got married when I was 27.

Okay. So you've had lots of years in business, lots of years making money independently. You go to college, you're still off by yourself, solo, making it happen. I assume you have some success there. You get married. Uh, how Was that a big shift for you of reprioritizing how you spend your time and how you do your businesses, or was she just kind of joined you and went along for the ride and you just continued to do your same routines and schedules?

Yeah, it was definitely more of the latter. So she kind of, she at that time, Cassandra is my wife's name, had her own pursuits career-wise at the time. So she had her own priorities, I had mine. So we, we were, uh, sort of side by side in that process of we each have the thing that we're focusing on. Um, and it wasn't necessarily like we had to dramatically shift anything. We had been together for a while before that. Um, so we were supportive of each other in that process.

Okay. And did you guys keep normal schedules or were you just all over the place, both of you?

Um, pretty normal schedules.

Uh, the reason I ask is I never had a normal schedule. I just— mine was just like, whatever, whenever the business needed me. It wasn't a 9 to 5. Sometimes I had to be there at 5 AM for shipment. Sometimes I was there till midnight because stuff had to get done, and I was, I was, you know, in the end, the person responsible. So, uh, it was always chaotic. And then sometimes I was home breakfast, lunch, and dinner with the kids and family. So, but I know different businesses have different, you know, ebbs and flows and structures. Okay. So you're married at around 27. Uh, things are going good. How long before you guys have kids?

Um, we had our son in 2013, so 2 years.

Okay. Married for 2 years, have a son. Uh, all right. So we'll kind of let you jump it from here. Uh, tell me about what's going on. Uh, you know, what was family life like? What were some of the problems? What were some of the excitements? And then I guess, uh, you know, you've already let us know that it kind of came to a, um, a head where you realized there was a problem. So walk us through this.

My wife was born to be a mother. Like, mothering is really natural to her and, and she shines at it. And I, I'll not forget right before she gave birth, her coming home from work with a bag in each hand and saying, "I don't care if I have to eat peanut butter and jelly the rest of my life. Once I have this kid, I don't want to work anymore." Like, she was working up to the end of her pregnancy, and she was just done at that point. So in my head at that point, I'm young, about to have a kid for the first time, like, pretty newly married. I don't necessarily have a lot of an idea of what's going on. I'm like, "All right, my wife doesn't want to work. I want to support her. I want to support this new family I'm going to have. I'm going to work my face off to make sure that that's possible for her, right? I want to provide. And the problem that became— she's a very natural mother, so there wasn't a lot for me to do to like fill in on the mothering part. Like, you could hand her a kid and she's got it. So for me, I had a lot of trust in the fact that she had everything under control and I didn't need to necessarily help so much because she's just a natural at it. That allowed me to get deeper into the 'all right, let me go work' part. So what wound up happening was I made the decision to work as hard as I possibly could during the first couple years of, of my son's life, figuring, let me build up a, a quote unquote nest egg, build up some businesses, sell 'em off, let the royalties from those provide an income so I can then take a lot more time off when he's 3, 4, 5 years old and spend more time at home. So that was my idea at the time. Which wound up in retrospect being a terrible one because ultimately what it wound up being was way more than just those first 2 years. Uh, and it, it got to the point where I would leave work, leave the house to go work at, you know, 3:30 in the morning, come home 8 o'clock at night. And for all intents and purposes, she was acting as a single parent. I was—

sounds, sounds like you put everything on mom, right? The entire—

so Yes. And, uh, and that created problems, as you can imagine, right? That's not an ideal scenario for everybody. And, uh, I think that, that to me really inspired me to have these conversations where, like, as a father, as a dad, as a husband, you want to provide. And I think there's a— it was like a prideful expectation that you have to provide and take care of your family. But it's not just financially, it has to be leading in the home as well and being present, being intentional with your time. And I feel like not enough people are having that conversation where being a successful dad, being a successful husband is more than just how much you're able to financially provide, but being there emotionally, being there, um, with your spouse, being there with your kids to, to be leader in the house.

Oh yeah, there's tons of rich kids with daddy issues, that's for sure. Yeah, it's not about money. It helps though. It can help. It can also amplify and magnify problems. All right, so how long did it take— how long did it take for you to kind of realize this? You know, I— it sounds like it was already a couple— your plan was a couple years, but it went beyond that.

5 years. Exactly 5 years old. Yeah.

He, um, what, what was the catalyst there?

His 5th birthday. Uh, I came home from work at 8:30 at night and had one of those days where like you have expectations to leave early, but nothing goes right. Right. So you are the person who has to put out the fires and it is what it is. Finally make it home at 8:30 and, and wanna sing happy birthday. Uh, my wife pulls out the birthday cake and half of it is already gone. So she's like, oh, sorry, he wanted to sing happy birthday with his friends after school, but you weren't here, so we did it. And I have a picture, which is the wallpaper on my phone, of singing happy birthday over that half cake, and it's pitch black outside. The two kids are like barely awake, singing happy birthday over a cake that's half gone. And in that moment, I realized this is not it. Like I don't want to be providing financially but missing this stuff. Like, this stuff I think is way more important than all the other things combined. Being able to have comfort in knowing that there's extra cash in the bank to pay for whatever you want is cool, but like, I'm not there for the important stuff in the formative years, these core memories for my kids, for my wife, that I now have to have this picture on my phone of a half-eaten birthday cake. And in that moment, I realized that I don't want to have any more of those half-eaten cake moments. And that's become kind of like a personal motto for me. No more half-eaten cakes. To where it's, it's when your kids want you to come play and you're like, I have this important thing that I have to do for business. Is it that important? Or should I go play with my kids? Like, which one am I gonna prioritize? And in that moment I think about, is this gonna be a moment that I look back on in 5 years and say, that stupid thing that I thought was a priority in my business at the time, which ultimately no one really cared about, led me to not spend time with my kids, right? And, and just giving yourself the perspective of what's really important and, and just prioritizing being present and intentional with your family.

So I have a no half-eaten cakes motto too, but it's just because I'm a fatty. So you realize on that 5th birthday something needs to change. So what do you do to change? I mean, what's— what actually happens, you know, the day after the 5th birthday and, you know, the weeks and months following? What did you actually change?

Just taking a look at all the places I was spending time and spending energy that wasn't necessarily returning a dividend, so to speak. So I'm pouring into businesses that may not be fruitful in all areas of life. I'm working with other businesses, other people who may not necessarily value me for my time or the, the ability that I have to help. So just looking at Where am I spending my time and where should I be spending my time? And really trying to figure out how to harmonize work and life.

Okay. Can, can you give us some specific examples of that?

Yes. So a lot of people talk about work-life balance. That's like a, right? Everyone's like, oh, I wanna have good work-life balance. But the problem with balance is you need to often shift the weight from one side to the other to try and keep the scales balanced. And it's this constant act of juggling from one side to the other where you're always ignoring the other thing. And instead, so what I started to really do there is figure out ways to bring everyone into the fold, or it wasn't just Daddy's, uh, going to work and then you leave Daddy alone. It's the family understands what Daddy does, the family understands why I do it, and the impact that it has. So it's not just the understanding part, but getting everyone on the same page to where we can have conversations about the impact of the things that I do in a day. And it's an entire team effort. So it's, it's bringing the family into the loop on the decisions that I make and how it impacts all the rest of their lives as well. So really just the best way to sum it up, I think, is getting everyone on the same page.

Yeah, so, uh, so I, I worked a lot. I'm very much a work addict, and it's, it's not so much out of a need to provide. I guess it was in the beginning, uh, there's more— I just enjoy work. I'm fulfilled by work. I like going to work. I do not like not working. Like, I just, I like the process of building something. I like putting out fires. I like, uh, I don't know, I just like the challenge and the, the conquering. Of the business world. Uh, so, so I genuinely enjoy it. At the same time, you know, in small businesses, as you know, you're kind of— you're the last resort. You know, you hire people, you hire staff, but they go home. And that's, you know, one of the benefits of being an employee. You can kind of just— doesn't matter if it has to be done, you get to leave. You just be gone. It'll, it'll just be something you have to do tomorrow, or, or the next person has to pick up. Uh, but as the owner, as the operator, That's just never the case. You know, it follows you home and home follows you to work and vice versa. Uh, you know, the way you said that was kind of how we lived. It was, uh, you know, the business and the family were almost intertwined, if that makes sense.

Right.

And, and though I worked a lot, we always kept the warehouse and the offices near the house, so we were always like 5-7 minutes away. So it's always easy to go there and go back. So there were some days I did leave 4 or 5 o'clock in the morning, was going to work, but I'd swing by 9 where I'd be going to run an errand or go to a customer on a sales call or whatever. I could swing by, say hi, talk to everyone, check in on things. So it's kind of this, this ebb and flow of, of, you know, weaving in and out. And then vice versa, they could, you know, we also homeschooled, which was a benefit. Because it, it fits that small business world, uh, lifestyle where it's just, it's chaos almost a little bit, uh, because they could stop by anytime though if they wanted to have lunch with Dad. They could if they were out running errands or, or going to go, you know, hang out with another family or go to the beach. They could swing by the warehouse in the office first. And so you always kind of saw Dad, you're always kind of talking to Dad. He was never just completely gone, uh, away at work. And, uh you know, that, that being on the same page. And it was just— it wasn't intentional for us, so it was just the way we lived. It was, you know, the, the business and the family, like I said, were kind of intertwined. And so there was always that communication, and, you know, dinner table talk was often about the business. And so that's how the kids grew up, uh, and it was just like— it's just what life was, uh, which I think was really helpful. And that, you know, as a father, that kept me super involved. I was always abreast of what's going on. I was always aware you know, if there were ever any fights or discipline issues or successes and excitements, you know, I was always aware of it. I was always kind of involved. And I just, as a father, I think that helped me, helped me with the bonding, helped me stay connected, helped me with the relationships, and just keeps your, you know, kind of keeps your pulse on the family and seeing where we need to correct, you know, where we need to focus on, where we need to improve on., what we need to lay back on. So, uh, 100% agree with that method of just—

what?

Yeah, I guess what, some constant communication?

Constant communication, um, open and honest communication, not hiding things or sugarcoating things from each other, I think is really important. Um, and really, you know, one of the biggest things for me, I think, is like a lot of lessons that your kids are going to learn in life, they are caught, not taught. So it's, it's the things that they see you doing as a dad. That's what they emulate. Like, it's not necessarily just because they, they learned in a book they're supposed to do X, Y, and Z, but when they see the way that you interact with people, when they see you carrying out your commitments, when they see you doing the responsible things, that's when they learn, I should do that, I should do that same thing that I, that I model after my parent. So I think being able to kind of get everyone on the same page and them understanding this is how you operate, this is the way that I, I treat my business, this is the way I treat my household, gives them a positive example to follow after.

Uh, when you made that shift of more communication of re-prioritizing where you spend time. Did you shut anything down?

Yes, a lot.

What'd you shut down?

Um, I think at the time I had 4 different businesses operating. I shut down all of them except for one.

Okay, so you re-honed all on what— the best one, I assume? The one that made the most sense? Uh, any regrets about doing that?

No.

Do you think if you had continued to ignore your family, you know, maybe if that leads to divorce or whatnot, uh, do you think you could have driven those other 3, uh, uh, with that 4th one and been successful in all 4 of them long term?

Depends on your definition of success. So financially, yes. Could I have made lots of money with them? Yes.

That, that's what I meant.

Yeah, but ultimately—

so you were willing to make that sacrifice of some dollars in that thing to make, uh, to be a better family man, to be a better father, and to make sure your kids don't grow up with daddy issues and, and you have a relationship with them and, and your marriage stays strong. And you're willing to make that financial sacrifice, uh, even though it was just potential at the point? Yes.

Yeah. And that's a, it's honestly something that I continue to do. Just as an example, I did something fairly similar about 4 months ago. I wound up firing a bunch of clients that just didn't align with the core value of the company. So those were clients that were paying a good amount of money to be clients, but ultimately I didn't see them as having the impact in their communities. That I wanted to be associated with. So the way that I structure this would— okay, let me explain further.

Okay.

This is not necessarily normal, so to speak, but it's something that I really wish was more normal in that we don't look at running a marketing agency as we want to just get clients and get paid. That's one version. You have a successful marketing company when you can make a bunch of money. Version A. Version B is when your customers can make a bunch of money, right? So your customers are doing really well, they're happy, that means you quote unquote doing a good job. Version 3 of that, which is what we really moved to, was the companies that you serve are benefiting the lives of their customers and everyone that they touch is also being benefited. So it's, it's more of this trickle-down effect where I'm not pouring in my energy into a company that is negatively affecting their customers, whether it's quality of life issues, whether it's just they are not modeling success in their households, their families. But what we are focusing more on is impacting our customers' customers and everyone who touches that business. Does that make sense?

Okay. Yeah, yeah, a little bit. You just— so I guess the intent behind your customer's business model, you just, you only want to be involved with certain ones that I guess have a positive impact on the world. Is that correct? Accurate. Okay. So that's, that's interesting because when, when you first started talking, I was thinking, because we did that quite often, every few years we'd kind of look at our client list. I had nothing to do with positive impact on the world. But we kind of just looked at our bottom 10% and just said, you know what, we're gonna kind of move away from these bottom 10-15%. You know, although they bring in a little bit of money and collectively they bring in a decent amount, you know, there's a lot of time and effort and workload that goes into maintaining those. And those are kind of the ones— we were in a service-based industry where you kind of have one thing that goes wrong and all of a sudden that customer is not genuinely profitable. Able anymore. And so you could cut away kind of like the bottom 10-15%, and it freed up a lot of time, a lot of resources, and allowed you to better focus on that, that top 85%, which always kind of kept us lean and, and, and strong. So that's where I thought you were going to go with that, but clearly that was not the case.

Yeah, I mean, it's It's similar in a way, but I guess the metric we're looking at there is not necessarily how profitable we are on them, but how impactful they are in their community.

So, so in that sense, how does that impact, you know, you as a father or a family man or a husband? Does it not? Is it just a way of cleaning up your time and that's, that's the criteria you use?

Um, I think from, from what I can tell The impact that it has is, is really setting the expectation that we don't invest our time or our attention or energy into things that aren't producing positivity in some way, shape, or form. Okay. Okay.

So trying to set that tone as dad and kids are just watching and seeing this, that it's not just about chasing money, it's not just about numbers, it's about Uh, you know, I guess making the world a better place, right? Even though—

impact through marketing legacy, right?

Right.

Yep, absolutely.

Interesting. Uh, uh, I forget, I know you told me how old your kids were. I think it was 8 and 5.

Yep.

Okay, so on your 5th— so on that 5th birthday, you already had a second kid, correct? Okay. Are you guys gonna have any more?

I don't think so.

All right, is it a boy and a girl?

Boy and a girl, yes.

Okay, fun. Uh, how long you been married now?

Uh, 11 years.

And, uh, is everything— is, is our mom and dad's relationship good now? Now that we've adjusted how we spend our time and reprioritized and made some financial sacrifices, uh, I guess potential financial sacrifices, but focus more on the family, is everything going smooth, or is there— are we still working through difficulties?

Uh, let's see how to answer that question. So the, the initial answer is yes, everything is going smooth. But, uh, you know, I think in a relationship there's always areas of opportunity, and having those open and honest conversations— we had one yesterday— was, hey, this is how I'm feeling, let's talk about it and let's improve it. So I don't want to say yes, everything is great and just whitewash it and say everything is awesome and there are no problems, because we are human, we are in a relationship, we have like a lot of responsibilities, so problems are going to creep in.

But I think opportunities for improvement, is that what you said?

Yes.

It's a very positive outlook way of, of saying that. Yeah, I, I don't think I've ever met to even, you know, uh, you know, quote unquote happily married couples. It takes work, you know. There's usually some friction somewhere on something. There's times where you're running on all 8 cylinders or firing all on all 8 cylinders, but You know, two individuals, you know, there's going to be conflict, there's going to be some tension sometimes, there's going to be things you don't agree with, or there's going to be aspects of the relationship you neglect that you need to start paying more attention to. And, you know, I don't think the goal should be that, that we can just coast and everyone's just happy. You know, I think that's, that's a fallacy, right? You know, a good marriage is going to take constant work and constant, uh, attention. And like you said, communication. Yeah, uh, because what, what do most couples do, I guess, you're saying, that are, that are struggling?

I mean, right, ignore it, and they just want to become roommates.

Everyone gets quiet, they stop talking, they ignore each other, give each other the cold shoulder. Dad buries himself in work, uh, you know, mom buries herself with friends, uh, or work herself. Yeah, there's— that's usually the, the status quo of let's just ignore each other and that way things get better, right?

Or we put it off until, hey, we're busy because we have kids and we'll deal with it when they leave the house. But then you find out you were roommates for 18 years and you guys have nothing in common anymore.

So that, that's a real thing, not only with that, but, um, when mom and dad— you see it more with, uh, when you have one kid But sometimes when the whole life is about kids, mom and dad start— stop working on mom and dad's relationship, on the marriage. You know, they don't make time for date nights, they don't really communicate as well because all of life is about the kids. It's almost like we love the kids more than we love each other, and it wreaks havoc when the kids leave the home. And those, those parents usually end up getting divorced, and, and it stems beyond just that because you think And, and we've seen it before where people say, I'm going to wait till the youngest kid's 18 and then we'll file for divorce. It's for the kids. That's what they always say. We're going to do this for the kids. And, uh, it really messes with those adults that you've now raised because they realized their whole upbringing was a, was a fraud, was a fallacy, was a ruse. And it really messed some up. I was reading the study, this is a few years ago, and I wish I could remember who. I think it was some political family where the mom and dad who have been married for like 40 years at this point, maybe even more, they get divorced. And then all the kids, I think there are 2 or 3 kids that were all married, you know, 10+ years, they're all divorced within about 2 to 3 years after that mom and dad get married or get divorced. So I mean, it has real effects. And I think pushing it off until they're 18 is massively a mistake. Putting on a ruse, putting on a show is a massive mistake. And, and, uh, to think that's not going to have an impact on 18, 19, 20, even 30-year-old, uh, it's— you're wrong. It's going to have an impact.

Yeah, you know, when you're saying that, I think it really inspired me to talk about failure as a dad, as a husband, as a father. Like failure is not something I think a lot of men want to face, whether it's pride, ego, whatever it is. But they want to pretend like, hey, I can't feel awful, I can't cry in front of my kids, I can't be emotional, I can't look like I failed. And I think that that's something that I really want to make whatever effort I can to normalize the fact that that's really okay. And especially when your kids can witness you took a risk on a business thing, it didn't work out. Okay, we're not out of business. We're gonna figure out what went wrong, try again. You can have a conversation with your spouse about, hey, this is a thing maybe we need to improve on. Not argue and blame, but figure out how do we move forward.

Sure.

And I think you're dealing with—

didn't crush you, right? I, I think I would call that more— well, you know, I guess there's a failure aspect there, but, um, You know, you're talking about being more vulnerable, uh, and being able to show, uh, I guess the softer side of Dad that, that a lot of men will hide from the world, including their own kids and sometimes even their own wives.

Yeah, I mean, it— I've seen it a lot, and I've seen it with people that I'm very close to where they, where they pretend everything is great, and ultimately that's when they develop their dependencies outside of that in their private time by themselves because they feel like they have no one to talk to. They can't, you know, voice the fact that they need help, they need support. But yeah, it shouldn't be that way.

That's also a discussion I think, um, you know, I'm starting to have with, uh, my preteen. And I think really in that, in that age and then through the teenage years, and, and geez, probably even through adulthood, when you'd be discussing of that image people present is not reality, uh, you know, what people— and this for kids, it really ties into social media, you You know, what you see in that picture, what you see in that little short video, you know, that's not really reality. That was— that's staged, that's filtered. That is— that is this little tiny snapshot here. So let's look beyond what that actually was. Let's think about how long it took, you know, to create that shot, to create that— to create that picture, to write that caption and write it this way. And is that their reality? And so often it's not. That's something we really talk about because we travel. We've traveled crap all over the last, uh, the last, what, 2 and a half years? Uh, and there's people who do that for a living, um, that spend a lot of time staging shots and making sure it all looks pretty and, and doing social media posts of all these beautiful places you've been to. And we don't do that. We don't We don't care what our hair looks like. We don't care what clothes we're wearing. We don't stop our hikes to take— well, we do take pictures, but they're not like— we're not trying to create all these picture-perfect moments. We take pictures and we post pictures and video of just our reality because so our kids know that's what we really did, and they know they experienced it. And we're not trying to present this facade that we're prettier or cooler or, um, I don't know, or trendier than anybody else. We don't really care about keeping up with the Joneses. We don't care about, uh, you know, the attention so much, you know. We just want to be happy and live our life our way. I mean, we don't care if the rest of the world hates it and disagrees with it, but we like it. That's fine, right? And so that's— yeah, I mean, so it's one of those conversations to have where you were kind of talking about, um, you know, people present present that they're happy, present that they're living this great life, but it's all, it's all a ruse.

Yeah, and ultimately, exactly what you just described is why we stopped working with a bunch of those businesses, because those businesses are putting on facades and trying to pull people into this fake reality to buy something that's going to make their life better. What's a lie? It's not going to improve their life, it's going to take $20 out of their pocket. And as somebody who does marketing, You have this ability to sell people stuff, and I think you have to be responsible with the fact to not sell people stuff, to not use your ability for harm. So that, to me, to really put it full circle, helps to teach my kids, we don't encourage that behavior. And if our client, our customer is gonna do that sort of thing to try and milk people outta money for no benefit, we don't associate with that cuz that's not helpful to our community. That's not how we lead in our house.

That's fair. Okay, so how has your relationships changed? Uh, how we doing on time? A few more minutes. Uh, how have your relationship— how has your relationship changed with your kids, uh, since you've created that shift and how you spend your time and, uh, at work?

Um, I mean, it's really night and day. Like, you know, previously I would see them very rarely during the week, and then on weekends we're usually tied up with activities and whatever else, and you're just kind of like going through the motions more so than creating those core memories. Um, now it's, it's really very intentional about being present in every opportunity you get to do so, whether that's getting them ready for school in the morning, whether it's picking them up, whether it's going to Little League games, whether it's No matter what it is, it's being present in those opportunities that you're creating those moments where even silly stuff like going to the grocery store, you're taking the extra 2 seconds to make a moment out of it and to, you know, teach them a lesson, teach them something, to, to instill a core value with them in every area, not just going through the motions in life.

So give some examples of that.

Sure. So we have a pet peeve in our house where when we go to the grocery store, we always put our carts back. We also, when we're walking into the store, I will park in the parking lot, we'll walk into the store, and as we're walking to the store, any carts that we can pass on our way, we'll take with us and put back. We're going that way anyway, why, why not improve the situation while we're doing it? So We've done that for a couple years now. One time my kids, uh, where we were going into a store, my kids went out, they got a couple carts as we're walking through. Um, someone saw them doing that, gave them each a dollar bill, and that validated the fact that other people are paying attention to the little things that they're doing and they notice. And it might be odd, it might be small, whatever it is, but I don't— when we park it in a store and get out of the car, they look around for other carts. They look around for opportunities to improve the area that they're in. And it's small, but it became no longer just going to the grocery store. It's how can we improve the opportunity that we're in right now by even 1%. They're putting away 2 carts in the parking lot, but they're looking for things that they can do when we've created this opportunity for teaching, this core value, this whatever you want to call it, that instead of just going through the motions and going to the store, it became this life lesson for them that I do hope that they never forget.

Yeah, that's great. Uh, you know, just making community service almost a normal in the family. Uh, but not through, you know, not necessarily through an organization. It's not serving soup, it's not, you know, Habitat for Humanity doing a house build or something like that. Just simple things: putting carts away, uh, picking up trash, um, you know, painting over graffiti, uh, things you can do on your own, not for attention, just because your family wants to make the world a better place. Not because you're doing a post about it to, uh, to get attention, but just because it's good for our neighborhood, it's good for our community, it's good for us. We feel better after, right, you know, making this park look better. Uh, yeah, we've done that a whole bunch. Uh, we keep little, uh, we used to keep gloves nearby because our kids like picking up trash for whatever reason. That's just what, what hung up for us is, uh, picking up trash because we'd go to parks and there'd be, you know, overflowing trash cans, things like that. So we just, you know, take it all out, carry some extra big bags and pick it all up. Uh, then we were in, uh Nevada and Great Basin National Park, which is like the least visited park. And there was this trash in Nevada that gets caught up in those weeds and everything when it blows, and they were picking up, and we ran across like a 12-foot rattlesnake that was mean. And, um, you know, the rattle sounds you hear on TV and movies, uh, does not hit the same when you hear it and it's really close to you. It's like fear-inducing. So now we use those— we go into Harbor Freight and got those like $1.99 little long, uh, what do you call this, grabbers. So that way we're not sticking our hands in bushes and getting, uh, tagged by a, by a rattler. Um, but yeah, no, that's creating community service, and I guess that's clearly one of your values that you're instilling in your family. Uh, You know, one thing we used to do, especially when they're younger, you can always— if you're working on letters, if you're working on reading, uh, you know, as you're going through the store, as you're going through the shopping center, read signs. O-P-E-N, what does that spell? You know, C-L-O-S-E-D, what does that spell? Or what letter is this? Uh, and so you can just kind of, you know, how you said stay present, stay engaged. You know, when you're having a conversation, not just letting them yap and you're not paying attention, but actually listening to what they say and not just saying, yeah, yeah, huh?

Right.

You know, a very present and involved father, which means your brain's actually active in that situation versus just, I don't know, what is that, getting through it or being numb to it? Yeah, absolutely. So do you— you were working all the time. So what's your schedule like, uh, I guess after that nowadays? Uh, are you working from home? Are you, uh, do you still go to the office? Is it more 9 to 5-ish or mornings, afternoons? Or, uh, I guess what have you found the best rhythm for you and your family to be?

Um, it's— I work from home. I had an office up until, uh, COVID, and then I shift to home. And I haven't had a need to go anywhere else, so here I stayed. But for me right now, the kids are back in school, so I'll work, I'll do my best to get everything done in the time that they're not physically here. That way when they are, I can give them as much energy and attention as I want to. I, like you, enjoy work. It's not really work. I never feel bad about, "Oh, I have to go do X, Y, and Z." I enjoy it. So if I have some downtime, some free time there at a friend's house or whatever, I may work some more, or I may stay up late once everyone goes to bed and have some time to do some work. Because it's not, it's not, um, it's not something you don't want to do. It's, it's relaxing, it's enjoyable to me. So it's, it's very fluid when I will, will work and when I won't. But, um, I think it's ultimately the freedom to work when you want, when you're not. And that ultimately, I think, is the goal that a lot of people are looking for.

Now, have you seen, uh, I don't know if you talk to other dads about this or not, or, or not. Do you give any, have any advice for that maybe isn't the small business owner, maybe works a, a demanding job for someone else, uh, on how they can maybe accomplish those same, those same things when they don't have, I guess, that full control over their, uh, their work and their lives?

So I'll combat you on that. They still do have full control over their lives, but they have an obligation to work their 9 to 5. So what I think is important for them is to really be present in every, in every interaction. With their family and show their kids, show their family what it means to carry through a commitment, even though it might not always be glorious. Like, if you are going to be whatever your job is, you're a garbage collector, whatever it is, you're not going to just go through the motions. You're going to do it to the best of your ability and you're going to take it seriously because that's the responsibility that you have. So I think being intentional, being present, and carrying through your commitments.

Anything you wanna leave up on? We're gonna go ahead and wrap it up. Uh, any, any words of wisdom you wanna leave the dads with?

Um, I really, I mean, to sum it up, I would say don't be afraid to be vulnerable.

Say that one more time.

Really don't be afraid to be vulnerable.

Okay.

To show weakness, to show Sometimes when you're just not feeling it, to have the conversations when you're upset, when things don't go right, not to necessarily feel like you need to hide it and pretend that everything is perfect. Um, to really focus on surrounding yourself with people who are looking out for you and who are looking to help you improve, who are going to hold you accountable, but who are also going to be there when you need them the most. Keeping a close circle of people who actually care for you, who are going places that you want to go to, I think is really important. Because a lot of us neglect the fact that you're gonna— you're going to be a summation of the people you spend the most time with. And a lot of us spend time around people we grew up with or people that we just happen to know from work. Those people aren't necessarily driven the way that you are. They don't share the same dreams, goals, and aspirations. And you wind up short-circuiting yourself a little bit by not pursuing your potential. And, um, just if I had to put one more bullet point on it would be: you're more capable than you realize, and never sell yourself short of that.

Yeah, and tie that into the one you've previously done of surround yourself with people that build you up and start tearing you down, and they'll kind of validate those beliefs of of believing in yourself and encourage you into those things. All right, well, it was a good conversation. Um, I appreciate you coming on. Hopefully some dads that are, that are overdoing it, maybe on work, or, or haven't figured out how to spend their time, will kind of take this as a, as a wake-up call and make sure they're, they're being intentional with their time and focused on, on, on being present and engaged with their family more often. So I appreciate you coming on.

My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Uh, I know you have a marketing company. You want to go ahead and plug that?

No, that's, uh, that's not why I'm here, but I appreciate it. I will plug me personally as not for ego's sake, but if you are going through that situation in your life where you just need a person to talk to, then please feel free to reach out.

Beautiful. All right, thanks for coming on.

My pleasure, man.

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