S3 E20 Porn to purpose founder Matt Sinkovitz

This will be season 3, episode 20 of the 100% Dad podcast with Townsend Russell. We got, uh, Mr. Sinkovitz, which is, uh, this— what is that, Russian?

Hungarian.

What's Hungarian? I was, I was way off. That's not even close. You're in the right region, I guess, in Europe.

Yeah.

And, uh, tell us a little bit about yourself. You reached out to me, um, I thought it was a good subject and, and something that, uh, we really haven't covered in depth. So, uh, uh, why don't you let the audience know who you are, what you do, and, uh, your background?

Yeah, my name is Matt Sienkiewicz. Uh, I'm the founder of the Porn to Purpose community. Um, I'm a coach, and, um, our community is designed, uh, and to serve, uh, husbands and fathers and men from all walks, but specifically husbands and fathers we focus on. In ending their habit of watching porn so they can reignite the passion in their marriages and relationships and ultimately be better role models to their children. So that's me. My background is interfaith chaplaincy. I'm actually an ordained Buddhist minister, and I've spent time in prisons and hospitals, and I've been trained in mindfulness counseling and been involved in personal and spiritual development for many years and actually had my own journey with, with pornography for 20+ years of my life. It was a big issue for me and couldn't get it resolved and ended up, you know, kind of recognizing all the ways it was detrimental and impacting my life and, um, ended up hiring a coach and getting help for it. And, uh, all my work kind of coalesced into this recognition that, uh, a lot of men are dealing with this and a lot of men are dealing with, with this privately. And so I decided to kind of bring my journey to the forefront and share and, yeah, make this my work and begin to build our community. So that's what we're doing.

So you're— let me get that. So aside from all that, here's what I got stuck on: an interfaith— did you say minister? Yeah, interfaith theologian. What did you say? I missed that.

Interfaith. I'm an interfaith minister. I'm a chaplain. Yeah. Yeah, well, yeah, I was raised Christian. I was still very much rooted in Christianity, but I studied, I studied Buddhism heavily and actually went and went to seminary and became ordained as a, as a minister. And then that work opened up the door for me. You know, as a young kid, uh, I was heavily involved in prison ministry and missions work with my parents, um, and my parents are still heavily involved in that work. And so I kind of got an exposure to that at a very early age. And, um, and so after I, after I went through, um, my seminary program, uh, I began to receive opportunities and look for opportunities to, to be of service, uh, to others. So I began, uh, doing, you know, teaching meditation and doing like an interfaith, uh, service in our local county prison. And then I went and spent time in, uh a big level 1 trauma center here in the area, Hershey Medical Center, serving as an interfaith chaplain. So my roots in Christianity and Buddhism kind of allow me to kind of serve in this interfaith capacity. I, I work with, you know, people that are super Christian and people who want to have nothing to do with religion at all, you know, kind of allows me to ride that, that middle line and work with anyone.

So So, okay, so you're, I guess you're in the religious space, just more about goodness and less about baptizing in a specific faith.

Yeah, brother, I'm about, you know, I think we're all, to me, you know, I got a very close relationship with God. I pray every day. I think we're all, my opinion is we're all praying to the same God when we look up to the sky and say our prayers, man, you know. So I just, I honor everyone's walk and I kind of look for the common theme, the common thread in, in all the world's faith traditions. I think at the end of the day, we're all really talking about the same thing, man, you know.

Yeah, yeah, I think most— that's what I've heard most people, even when they're specific to one faith, they're gonna say, hey, we're not talking— we're all talking about the same.

Yes.

What is it, deity? Um, yeah, uh, we just, you know, I guess we have different rules and thoughts and documents that we choose to believe.

Exactly. Yeah.

Um, okay, so I guess your parents are in the ministry, and so you kind of followed their footsteps into that, uh, Yeah, what pushed you into the, I guess, the porn side of it? Is that all you're doing now? Are you still in the other aspects of faith?

Mm-hmm. So we asked a couple things there.

Where do I tend to do that? I throw like 15 questions at a time at you. And I say go. Alright, so, so you still do all your faith as you go to your prisons or the trauma centers or wherever you need and you do that? Okay. Yeah.

So I was, because Between— I was in, I was in the, I was in the hospital serving a residency as a chaplain between 20 and 21. And that ended at 21. And since then, I've been full-time in this business doing this work.

Okay, got it. And this is, is this like a big organization? Or is this your baby?

It is my baby, but we're growing, you know, we've got a— our primary hub is on Facebook, we've got about 1,400 member group, men from all around the world. And yeah, we've got, we've got men from all corners of the world, uh, as part of our community.

Okay, is now, is that like a, a free thing, or is, are you, are you charging like a, a community subscription fee, that kind of stuff?

Our Facebook community is totally free, and we offer a lot of support, resources, and value there. And then yeah, we do have, we have multiple levels of, of kind of paid coaching support and community options for men who are looking to dig in and work more one-on-one with myself and really get more accountable to a community of men who are on a path in this work.

Okay, so anytime you discuss anything, no matter what it is, whether it's porn or Hitler, the Earth is round, there's an opposite side to that. Yeah, if you say the world is round, there's going to be a segment of population that says, well, now we got to say it's flat. And if you, you know, if you say Hitler's bad, there's going to be a segment about, what, what, no, no, no, he's actually pretty good, or right there's always going to be a counteract. So on the porn side, so what are your— what do you call them— your critics or, uh, the people in the porn community saying? What would be the benefits of pornography in your life?

Oh man, the benefits. That's interesting.

Um, you know, what are they saying? Not, not saying they're actually benefits because you're obviously on the other spectrum of it, but, but what's being said out there that someone who's listening right now might be believing or thinking or justifying?

Well, first of all, there are a lot of people out there that, that think that porn is fine. And, and you know what? Good for them. I don't really argue. I'm not here to condemn pornography and say it's, it's completely bad or someone that does it is doing wrong. I do have my kind of opinions about the effects on it. I'm here more, Townsend Russell, for, for the men who recognize it is an issue, recognize that it is destructive in their lives, and You know, it's just like, it's like some people can drink alcohol like myself and can have a couple beers at the bar, drink maybe, you know, once a month, couple times a month, whatever, and it's no problem. But some people have one sip of alcohol and it's, it's complete chaos, you know, it's destruction. And so, so, so a lot of people have relationship like that with pornography. Some people, they're like, I don't really get it, I'm not into it, or hey, I enjoy it, I enjoy it, it's, it's fine, it's a My partner and I, we use it together and it's not a problem. Or maybe I just use it once a month, but I feel like I have a healthy relationship with it. So don't try and take it. So I'm not trying to— I, I'm not the guy— there are people out there, but I'm not the guy just saying it's all wrong and no one should do it. I'm here, I'm really here to support the men that recognize it is an issue. Um, so I'll start there because I think that's a good balanced approach. Um, but I'll say that, hey, on the positive side, some people, again, Some couples, uh, use it within their relationship. Um, they stay— they say it's good, they say it's healthy. I talk to a lot of women who use it, and they seem to have a different kind of relationship with it. They don't have this addictive kind of— it takes a really dark turn for a lot of guys, and with women, it doesn't seem to really do that as, as often. And some people, you know, it's, it's a part of them, like, exploring their sexuality and being in touch with them, with them sexually, with themselves sexually. So If that's the case, then good for you. You know, there are people who— and also, we do recognize, and I think it is true, that pornography is oftentimes a very predatory kind of industry, and it relies a lot on people taking advantage of others. But there's also like porn stars who seem to be taking a conscious approach to it and You know, I'm not trying to paint a picture that it's all wrong.

I mean, we, we've had this on the podcast before. We had a guy in here who, uh, he runs an organization that, um, intercepts trafficking. Um, yeah, and that's, that's all they do. It's pretty substantially sized organization, and they rescue women from trafficking. Is, uh, you know, after that podcast, I had— I just didn't realize— I thought that was a third world thing. Like, I thought that was in other countries, other places. I didn't realize how prevalent was inside the United States, inside neighborhoods that I would live in. Um, and he said one of the biggest, uh, that was one of his arguments was like, listen guys, you don't understand how much you're watching pornography and you're clicking into those websites is driving some of this trafficking, because a huge majority of those trafficking victims, um, are being forced into pornography. Like, that's where they're getting their footage from., and they are not willing participants. They are, you know, forced into it. And, you know, his, his theory was if we can curb the sheer volume going to these websites, uh, that is somehow financially providing for them, uh, then we could reduce trafficking significantly because that was just a major driver in it. Uh, so something, something about that was a previous— gosh, I wish I could remember his name off the top of my head. I cannot, but that was a probably about 5 or 6 podcasts ago, I think we did it. We recorded it back in March in Houston. And that was eye-opening for me because I didn't realize trafficking was that prevalent in the US. I just thought it was, you know, occasionally a US citizen gets kidnapped, maybe like in the movie Taken, but apparently that way. So I was— the movie portrayal of trafficking is way different than the reality of trafficking.

Yeah, a lot of exploitation going on.

Yeah. Yeah. And the other thing, we're getting away from pornography now, but the other thing in that one was they're not kidnapping. These aren't you're getting dragged into a white van. These are you're being, in a sense, seduced. They're going after kids that don't have a good father, that don't have a father present. Another example of why men need to be strong leaders in their family and be in that role and an active participant.

Yep.

Because that's who they target, and they're getting them through Snapchat and video game consoles and anywhere they can start a conversation with a child. In the chat sections of, you know, games on your phones, uh, you know, actual phones, uh, little video game communities, chat forums, things like that. And they just develop a relationship and kind of gain the trust. And eventually they get these kids that don't have a family to, uh, basically willingly go with them at first. And then they kind of teach them that, that, you know, love is you're forced to stay here. Like, like it's, it's a psychological play, not a physical kidnapping, that kind of thing.

Yeah, manipulation.

Yeah, it was pretty eye-opening to me. I just, I didn't realize that. And then they stay in the United States and, you know, they live in normal neighborhoods and, you know, they're working in the massage parlors and, uh, you know, being forced to do those kind of videos. And, um, you know, they're not chained to radiators and drugged. They're just, uh, you know, kind of taught that, hey, we love you, this is what love is, and if you leave, we'll kill you. So yeah, That's just— and that's their normal. But anyway, we've gotten away from— well, it's relevant today.

It's relevant, man.

Yeah, yeah, I guess it all plays. All right, so, and I did some research into this, gosh, a few years back, uh, and I think— so some of the negative side effects to it. So one, you had the— it's driving trafficking, and, uh, you know, some of those videos are genuine rape at that point, which now you're just watching you know, some, some, some dark and creepy stuff. But I think you started to touch on this, that your pornography addiction will go from something maybe nice and quaint to it, you know, just like drugs. If you get a little bit, you get that high, you get that sensation. And I guess that's what, you know, pornography does for you. You get that— I think it's dopamine flush to the brain. Your brain becomes addicted to it. You want that You want that chemical rush. And so, just like in drugs, you're going to need to use more and more to get that same high that you once got. Your brain's just— your body basically just kills itself trying to get this high because it feels good to it. And just like you need to use more drugs, you got to use more and more pornography, the more and more aggressive pornography. And then you just— it kind of evolves into this point where you're having to watch beatings and, and, you know, the, the rape scenes and I guess whatever else there is out there, you know, you just become one of these guys that's gotten really dark and twisted in order to get that dopamine rush. And that's, you know, long-term vision, I wouldn't think anybody would want that for themselves or their kids. I'm trying to think what some other negatives were. Actual sexual performance going down. Having more erectile issues, uh, because, uh, the sheer volume of stimulation from pornography just stops matching up to the real thing. So then you've become unable to do the real act, which, boy, that, that would get depressing real fast. Um, trying to— so what, what else is there? That, that's just off the top of my head from, uh, I think some writings I did a couple years ago.

Yeah, man, the, the impacts are vast. And, you know, you mentioned a couple there. Yeah, it has a way of distorting our sexuality, our sexual tastes, our sexual preferences. A lot of guys, um, will speak to the way in which— and, you know, I experienced this as well— like, the stuff you, you watch needs to be more and more extreme, more and more graphic to kind of to hit those mechanisms. And Yeah, you're looking for that dopamine hit, just like, just like with a drug, man. It's, it's very similar. So we need more and more and more darker, darker, darker, more twisted. And what a lot of guys I think wake up to one day, and what I think begins to call a guy back into integrity around this is, hey, like I'm watching stuff, I'm viewing stuff that really doesn't align with my natural taste, my natural preferences, what I typically want. I'm feeling shame, remorse, disgust around what I'm viewing. And, and, uh, and I don't, and I don't like kind of who I'm becoming or what I'm desiring or what I'm needing in order to get off. So yeah, that's a big one. Obviously that feeds into relationships and then, you know, sex and intimacy. ED's a big one. You know, a lot of men, um, they're viewing pornography and then, then they don't really have the interest or the desire for their partner. So there's an effect there, or they're comparing pornography to their partner, you know. And, um, let's, let's, let's be honest, it just doesn't match. It doesn't match up. You know, in, in, in certain ways, you know. Um, so those are, those are some impacts, but, but I think beyond that, I mean, there are mental, emotional, physical, uh, spiritual, um, impacts, which, you know, uh, pornography for a lot of guys creates a lot of shame, a lot of guilt, a lot of remorse, a lot of heavy emotions. Um, men a lot of times want to quit but can't quit. So they kind of grow out of integrity with themselves and they don't trust themselves anymore. They don't— it creates a social awkwardness. A lot of guys that view pornography a lot, have a hard time in social settings and looking people in the eyes. We've seen productivity and work is a big one. You know, guys are supposed to be— a lot of people working at home now, they're supposed to be working and they're spending several hours a day, you know, surfing, surfing porn and browsing the internet. So huge relation, huge impacts all across the board, Townsend.

And how so? You know, we're talking addiction at this point. So I guess, how do you define Um, how do you define what an addiction is?

Yeah, that's interesting, man. I was talking to my teacher a couple— a month or two back, and, and, you know, we were kind of having the conversation, what really qualifies an addiction? What, what qualifies as a compulsion or even an attachment to something? And, and maybe addiction's not— you know, I think all these terms are debatable. You know, some people would say that because of the way that pornography affects the brain and, and the kind of the chemical, um, the chemical, um, situation going there that, that it would be qualified as an addiction. Um, but some people might say an addiction is something that, hey, if I don't get it, I'm going to have an adverse physical reaction, like someone like alcohol or heroin or something like that. Like, I need it or I'm going to go through withdrawal. So porn doesn't really qualify in that way. Some people would qualify porn, you know, the relationship with porn as a compulsive relationship with porn. Whereas you might, you might see a compulsion, like someone like needs to touch the doorknob 7 times before they go to bed or something like that. Like there's, there definitely seems to be a compulsive type quality to porn addiction. Like we feel this, this urge, this impulse in the body, and we can't control ourselves. So we have to, we have to do it. Like, uh, there I was just on the, uh, on a call with a guy before I jumped on here today. And we were talking about, it's really interesting with porn and maybe different, different substances and different, different things we have relationship with. It's like it takes over the body. It's like we almost lose control of ourselves. We know we don't want to continue to go back, but it's almost like something else is in the driver's seat and we can't control our behavior, even though time and again we've told ourselves we want to quit. So that's another one. And I think, I think another way we could also qualify it is it's this attachment. Type relationship, like we need it in order to feel a certain way. Um, and, and that might be a good definition or explanation of, of it as well. We've kind of got this attachment to it, just like some people have an attachment to cigarettes or food or, uh, or social media, for instance.

Huh, okay. Well, and those things are— I mean, those things are being classified as addictions now. Now, I don't know if it's being classified in the scientific community or just, just talking generally, but, you know, sugar addictions, uh, you know, very real things. Um, screen addiction, social social media addictions. Again, they're all, I guess, relevant to the, the chemical release in the brain.

So I think addiction works for this, you know, in describing this.

Yeah, you know, I've never, I've never heard or thought of that before. Yep. But you don't have— I guess if you don't have the shakes and everything afterwards, right, you know, of trying to detox from it, then— but maybe that's just drug and drug addictions.

But, but this inability to con— to control your behavior, and that's what a lot of guys experience. They Like, how many times— like, guys listening, you know, how many times has a guy said, I'm done, this is my last time, I'm not going back? Maybe he can go a couple days, a couple weeks, maybe a couple months, but he continues to return to it, man. Like, there's definitely something there that he cannot control his behavior, you know.

Sure. Then, you know, uh, I think you— did you briefly touch on this? Uh, it came to my mind, uh, but, you know, negatively affecting your relationships, especially when you're hiding it. When you're— when you're— because it forces you into lying to your spouse. It forces you into, uh, I don't know if that'd be considered manipulative behavior, but, uh, certainly dishonest behavior, um, you know, things like that. So, uh, and I'm sure you've seen plenty of that where it's just— it's detrimental to your marriage or to your relationship.

Yeah, I think anytime you're hiding, you know, like, just— just like the general energy, that— that— that's one of the That's one of like when we talk about what are some of the common signs that someone might be able to recognize whenever if they do have an issue with porn. One of those is, yeah, is it something I've got to hide in my life or keep a secret? You know, anytime we have to kind of carry this energy of secrecy or hiding in our life, like, that's not a great energy, man. So yeah, bringing that into a relationship was never healthy.

Yeah. Now you mentioned earlier, so, uh, you know, guys I guess struggle much more than women there's a small percentage of women that do struggle with it. But you said the relationship's different there, so could you go into that? Because I, I've always heard that it's, you know, it's a guy problem, not a woman problem, but I've never heard anybody say they have a different relationship with it. So I'm curious on to what that is.

It seems, it seems so, man. And, you know, I'm not sure if I can really do it justice, but, but just, just, just from what I've observed, you know, um, Uh, first of all, I'll say that, yeah, there are women that definitely have a porn addiction and they'll say like, I'm addicted to porn. I'm not sure what that experience is like for a woman though, you know, cuz obviously we just, we can't know. There are also women, I was, I was just with a woman this weekend who's like, she's like, porn's fine. She's like, I use porn. It's not, it's not a problem. So women, there are some women that just, it just not, it's, it just doesn't have the same impact. But there are some— but, but for men, I think it might be the visual thing. It might be the visual thing. Like, you know, um, men are visually stimulated. Yeah, men are visually stimulated. I think that's a big one. Like, women are visually stimulated, but women are also stimulated by touch and connection and intimacy and closeness, you know. But for a guy, it's very transactional a lot of times, sex, you know. It's like, it's, it's the stimulation and then the ejaculation, you know. It's like, that's really all they need.

Um, so I don't know, I mean, if you, if you look, if there's a picture of boobs, a guy's going to get all excited versus, you know, when you send a dick pic to a girl, they're like, why the hell would you send that?

Exactly, great example.

I mean, great example. Um, yeah, so you learn, uh, you know, nothing to do with porn, but like if you go like marriage classes and things like that, how to improve your relationship, guys, you know, they, they reference are like a microwave, you know, you can just you can get in the mood right away, where a woman's, you know, a slow cooker. You got to kind of— you got to work the whole day. You got to be nice, you got to get compliments, you got to do some nice touching or a back rub or, you know, get the dishes done. And, um, you know, an unsolicited text saying a nice thing or some flowers, like, it— there's a process to it. It's not that immediate, uh, gratification. And that, you know, guys genuinely husbands genuinely struggle to understand, uh, about their wives. Yeah, I think gambling was the second fastest growing addiction in the United States, and this is probably 2015 or so that I was looking into this, and I think pornography was number one. Is that still similar? I know if you look at like the, the website, like top 10 websites, uh, by traffic volume, I know porn sites are like 5 out of the 10 or something like that.

Porn's way up there, man, for sure. And, and what I What I'm quite certain of is some of the statistics are— it's like this thing is like almost like moving faster than the statistics are coming out. Interestingly, you know, some of the statistics that you look up there, they can be anywhere from 5 to 10 years old. Um, and there's some newer studies coming out now, but what I'm, what I'm seeing is you've got, you know, whenever I was a kid and I was first introduced to porn, like getting your hands on a Playboy magazine was exciting. Like getting a friend's DVD was exciting. Like, if you could like, uh, watch a— the fuzzy, uh, Spice Channel, you know, like, that was like exciting. That was a score, you know. Um, and, and it— for me, it wasn't till I was like almost out of high school till we had, you know, the internet in the house. And then a few years later, like, high-speed internet. But now— and, and it was all like— the porn was just more vanilla. It was just more basic, you know. And Nowadays, you've got high-speed internet at everyone's fingertips at all times. You know, kids are having phones younger and younger, and they're getting access to it younger and younger. I've, I've got to suspect that there's going to be like this, this surgence of, uh, of, of guys, kids having access to porn and porn addiction. I mean, it's got to be. Because of the access to high-speed internet and the fact that everybody's got phones in their hands these days.

Yeah, it's the phones. I mean, that's my biggest concern with my kids, um, too seductive. And, and, you know, I'm not worried. There's protections against like Googling that and, and directly entering a website, but there's so many backdoor methods to it. And you start looking at the apps and all the games and everything and the chats within those, the communications within those games, within those apps, and man Just how we were talking about trafficking, I mean, you are so exposed and you can only protect about so much. Like, my kids' phones, they do not get to hold them all the time. I give them, you know, whenever I want to them. I can see what they are doing on their phones. It is highly restricted. They cannot go to any website. But they found backdoors, and I, you know, I can close some of them, but even like, you know, games like word games, or like you are figuring out words, like WordSearches, Wordle, that kind of stuff. You know, they have like, you can join teams and have chats within those, and those find ways to bypass those filters.

Yes.

Which is, it's maddening as a parent trying to control that. But yeah, I mean, that's a, that's my biggest fear is that they're gonna stumble upon that kind of stuff. You know, it kind of just robbed them of their innocence because, you know, I guess once you see that, it's, it changes your view of the world.

Yeah, man. Like I said, it's too seductive. It's like for a young kid It's like too good of a drug, man. For a man, it's too good of a drug. And the problem is it's always available. And as we talked about, it's just there's always more and more and more and more.

And yeah, so how do you, you know, you have kids that are, you know, obviously do as much actual protection as you can, limit the access to it, have the filters, have the controls, you know, those kind of things. Yeah, but I guess you have to have conversations with your kids once they— once you're going to give them more time on the internet, more, more phone time, those kind of things. You just have to have the conversation. My biggest fear is they're going to be hanging out with a kid at the playground, he's going to pull out his phone and be like, "Wow, check out this video." Yeah, because he's a 9-year-old, he's seen— maybe his family has less values, or he just has an unrestricted phone. And, uh, like, that's my biggest fear is like, no matter what I do that, uh, you know, some, some kid at the playground or a school or wherever is gonna, um, you know, expose him before I've had the ability to have a conversation that I genuinely don't want to have, at least right now. So like, I don't want to introduce it too soon because like I said, it's protecting their innocence at that level.

Yeah, you know what, man, I was just on a conversation with another gentleman who runs a large men's community, and we're going to be doing a joint training on this conversation. And we're going to be doing the training in November. And it's going to be all about fathers addressing this conversation with their children, how to have this conversation and what are some of the safeguards we can have in place? How do we, how do we address this? And, you know, we are actually just talking about some of the points. I've got a great podcast. I had this gentleman, his name is Larry Hagener. I had him on my podcast in our community. And we're having this conversation, like, and, and he kind of walked us through, um, you know, some of the, some of the basic, some of the basic points. And, you know, one was, yeah, normalize the conversation. Like, don't make it such a taboo conversation. Like, the kids, like, now their curiosity is piqued, you know? Like, how do you normalize that conversation, even if it's a conversation we don't want to have? How do we bring it into the home and make it comfortable and not awkward? Because, like, I know as a kid that was like an awkward conversation for me to have with my parents and to bring up. So how do we normalize the conversation of sex and sexuality and pornography, you know?

And, and to elaborate on that, um, my feeling is it's very important not to make it a one-time conversation, not to make the talk a one-time thing that you got through because it was awkward, or, or you brought humor into it, however you did it, uh, not to make it a one-time thing. So like you said, normalize it of like, hey buddy, you can come to me at anytime with this. I'll take it seriously. It'll be a man-to-man, or it'll be a, you know, woman-to-man, father-daughter talk, whatever it is. Or you can come to mom and have that talk as well. Like, we're not going to make a joke out of it. We're not going to blow it off. We're not going to make fun of you or mock you for it. And we're not going to make it weird. We'll just have a real, you know, I don't know, grown-up, grown-up type conversation. But that— not have it one time. Like, needs to be a continual conversation. That way, because it's going to evolve. I mean, it's going to evolve from age 11 or 12 or whenever you start that conversation to, you know, 16, 17, 18.

Yeah, I mean, to me that would come down to just cultivating a healthy relationship and open lines of communication with your children, which I'm sure is a lot of like what you focus on in your, in your community and your work here. And, um, another one that, that, uh, this gentleman shared was Yeah, like also talking to your, your kids about like the dangers of it. Like, hey buddy, you know, um, first of all, it's like, okay, like we're all drawn to this. It's like normal that you're, that you're attracted to this stuff. And there are some things that you can't see from your seat that are really important for you to know, such as, yeah, the, the potential for, you know, erectile dysfunction at a very young age. Like kids are seeing like, like having ED issues, like late teens, early 20s, uh, like because of all the stimulation due to pornography, also the stimulation to the penis, like they're damaging the nerve endings in the penis and it's like less sensitive, you know. So like having these conversations with your kids, like just helping them see the, the dangers and the pitfalls, uh, like before they, before they encounter them on their own, uh, that, that was another big one. And, and I think the biggest thing, Townsend Russell, I was— I would like to just say is It's a call for the men to be in integrity in this area in their own life so they can speak to their children about it. Because if they're not, then how do you really model and be the example and guide your children through this?

Yeah, and I would think the conversation obviously is one I haven't had with my kids yet, although the oldest one, like, we're there, and it probably needs to start soon. Yeah, I would think it's something very, very, very much along the lines of alcohol, drugs, things like that, of like, hey, I guess depending on your viewpoint of it, of whether it's okay or not okay, or just like an absolute abstinence, or, you know, forming that discussion of like, when you start these things early, it is way more damaging, it is way more addictive, it is— it causes way more problems we can, if we can at least push this thing down the road as long as possible. I mean, there's, there's so many studies with, uh, alcohol. I don't know that there's any with pornography, uh, but alcohol or drugs, like, if you can get past— I think last one I read was like age 25 is when a, a man's brain stops developing. So if you can withhold alcohol use until 25, tremendous benefits versus starting earlier, which huge percentage of the population, uh, obviously does not do. Um, yeah, even me in high school, I think— gosh, a friend offered me my first drink when I was like 13 or something like that, right? Uh, so the longer you can, uh, you can, I guess, keep those things from, uh, sinking their tentacles in, uh, I guess the less likely you're going to be addicted, less brain issues you're going to have, the you know, I wish I could remember what they were, um, but they're probably along the lines of what you were talking about— attention span, uh, you know, ability to complete tasks, uh, you know, sexual side effects obviously for pornography, uh, maturity, those kind of things. Just, uh, it genuinely at a physiological level affects brain development. Uh, that— now that's on the alcohol side. I assume it's very much the same on the pornography side because anytime you overload you know, you start getting into anatomy and biology. Anytime you overload sensors, uh, you know, receptors, that causes damage, which is the— you just— that's why you need more and more and more, and you never actually get it again. Um, yeah, uh, you know, you're doing damage there. And so the, the longer— at the very least, the longer you can push that off. But I guess you got to figure out a way to have that conversation with your kids of like, you know, I really want you to stay away from this. It's, it's highly addictive. Like, If you see it, you're gonna want to see it again. Like, there's almost no doubt about that. So, and your friends are going to— like, you're going to have friends that are going to have seen it and liked it and want to show you. You know, doing drinking, you're going to have friends that drink. You're going to have friends that are going to offer you a drink. You're going to have friends that get drunk. You're going to have friends that do drugs. You know, we want to limit those relationships. We want to be able to say no. We want to be able to have that self-control, that impulse control, because those are all good skills to develop as well. And then, you know, you have your moral and, you know, what are our family morals? What's integrity mean to us as a family? And, you know, let's live by that the best we can. While simultaneously, if you do see it, if you struggle with it, if like, if it's something like, I don't want you to be scared. I don't want you to be embarrassed or nervous to come to me to talk about it. Or if you need help, because we can always find a guy like Matt Sienkiewicz or another side that says, like, like, I want you to be able to come to me and say, Dad, listen, I've seen it, I like it, I can't stop, I want to stop, let's find, let's find a resource for help.

Exactly.

And even if that's— I'm assuming that's okay even at the age of, I don't know, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18. I'm assuming your, your group doesn't have an age limit, or maybe it does.

Well, I mean, like, right now we don't have anyone under 18, um, you know, but I mean, I really think there's like a call for Yeah, like, uh, a community that can address this, like, that young kids could be a part of, because it's definitely creeping into kids' lives at, you know, 10, 11, 12, 13 on up, I'm sure. So, man, even if it's—

even if it's accidental, I mean, even like, I, uh, I have a Snapchat account I almost never use. Uh, you know, we use it for the face filters and everything. For the longest time, I thought it was a cheating app, and so I stayed away from it. Yeah, and then like, I really thought it was just for— it was like, uh, how people cheated. Like, that's how you have an affair with your spouse or whatever. Like, I thought it was a connection site, um, uh, which I was so wrong. So one of our neighbors showed us like you can do the face filters, so that's what we used it as. Like, me and my kids, we just do the face filters and have fun with it. Um, but I get messages all the time. Like, my username's not out there, no one knows what it is. It's just, uh I get a ton of messages, you know, "I'm Russian, I think you're cute, click this link." You know, those kind of things. I mean, just, I don't open the thing up, but I probably have 10 at any given time, you know, every month or so. And so, you know, if my kid's on Snapchat, if my kid's on, and I've gotten them through Facebook and email and, you know, who hasn't? You know, those opportunities are there, even just for an accidental click or a kid who just doesn't really know. My thing is with my kids is never click a link. Like, I don't care what it says. I don't care if it says free video games, free money, whatever it is. Never click a link. That's how you get viruses and don't destroy our— don't destroy our technology. The penetration into the kids is my biggest concern. So far I've been able to stop it. I mean, there's a genuine innocence that we've been able to keep there so far. I don't know how long, I don't know how long I'll be able to fend that off. It takes active, active intention and effort.

Absolutely, brother. There's an app that was recommended to me by, by this gentleman I was just talking about, Larry, and he uses this app called Bark with his kids. Are you familiar? Bark?

Yep.

He said that's been really helpful in helping him kind of just stay— yeah, to what his kids were looking at and conversations that were being had and stuff like that. It helps him be proactive around it, you know.

Yes, uh, I think Bark might be the one. One of them is really good for bullying too. Um, like it monitors all the messages going in and out, uh, I think even through the background of games and things like that. And it monitors for certain keywords, and the intent was for to figure out if kids are being bullied or not being bullied, and or they're being the bully. And to notify the parents so we can get ahead of it. And I'm sure that could work other ways. I'm sure in the keyword, whatever the algorithm is, I'm sure they have it for sexual content and violence and language and things like that. Self-harm. Yeah, exactly. I know, you know, technology is always evolving, so they struggle, you know, everyone struggles to keep up because, you know, you have all these different firmware variations and, you know, updates and things like that. And it's tough to keep up with all of it. But yeah, Bark's a good one. I think we've talked to them in the past. We didn't have a need for it. We were going to do a run with them, but my kids don't have that much access. We use Canopy. I don't even know what it's called. It's not even an app. It's like through— I think it's through Google. So it's like Family Link or something like that. And so their phones are just highly restricted. They can't get— they can't download any apps. They can't go on any websites. It's like the most restricted you can be. So, you know, if they want an app or a game or something like that, you know, they have to come ask me and I can put it on their phone. I can see what they've done. I shut down, I can monitor their time. I shut down when they can use it. You know, we physically have their phone. We give it to them for the hour or two they want to do it. And they mostly just do video editing. They like to make little videos, record themselves doing stuff and edit it down. Cool, man. Yeah, but you know, like they play Wordle and I know Wordle's got chat features on it. You know, that we just kind of stay on top of and just manually check every once in a while. Eventually, you know, as the oldest one becomes a teenager, we'll probably give him more and more freedom in that, still monitor it, but then we'll probably look into a Bark or something like that.

Yep. There are a couple kind of key indicators that we often, you know, sometimes the guy might say, hey, uh, you know, porn is, uh, I'm not sure if it's a problem for me. You know, we're all kind of like on a path of awakening around it. When we're younger, we don't see the harmful impacts, but as we kind of grow and grow in awareness, we, we kind of begin to wake up and see the correlations and connect the dots and see the ways that it's impacting us. So I, I could share a couple, um, kind of ideas, a couple things that we look for where you might be able to use as a listener to kind of gauge whether or not porn is healthy or unhealthy for you. Sure. Would that be— would that be helpful?

Yeah. Now, um, yeah, and before we do that, this question, because I'm genuinely curious: is it the pornography or the actual masturbation that's, that's the target here? Like, are we, are we trying to kill the video, the visual stimulation, because it's too much, or are you trying to kill the act in itself?

No, for me it's— for us it's, it's pornography. That seems to be the toxic piece. And then once we isolate the pornography, you know, like I think masturbation can be a healthy thing if it's not done compulsively and you're not just using it to check out and all these different things, you know. But, you know, masturbation is its own thing. And of course, healthy sexual intimacy and connection is really the ultimate. So we really just isolate the porn and really work to remove that, and everything else seems to kind of follow on its own.

Okay, got it.

Yep.

All right, so I interrupted you, so finish your piece because I think those— that would be good. Uh, yeah, that's a good topic to dive into.

Yeah, that's cool. Um, so what I was saying here was sometimes a guy might say, uh, you know, how do I know if porn's an issue for me? And I'll just give you 3 kind of quick, um, things that you could look for in your own journey. Um, one, um, is like a really kind of direct, uh, firsthand experience with, with porn. Uh, a lot of men report feelings of guilt, shame, regret, remorse, low self-esteem, um, kind of these emotional, energetic, spiritual impacts as like in, in close proximity to porn. So I think one thing we can do is look at the way that porn is affecting you. Like maybe, maybe before you use porn, before you masturbated, like maybe you're feeling pretty good about yourself. You're feeling good about your day. Then afterward, maybe you're feeling kind of low, low vibe, low self-esteem, low self-confidence, shame, guilt, remorse, these, these kind of low vibe feelings and emotions. Um, Look for like the direct impact in your life. And then that, that of course translates to every other area of our life. It impacts the way we show up in our relationships. It impacts the way that we show up at work. It impacts us socially. It impacts us spiritually. So look at the direct correlation, like aside from the euphoria of like watching porn and, you know, the, the ejaculation and all these, the orgasm, look for the ways that you're feeling kind of after and the way it affects your emotional state. That's a big one. Number 2 is, I mentioned this earlier today, is porn something that you have to hide in your life? Like, how confident would you be right now handing your phone over to your partner, your wife, your pastor, something like that, or, you know, to view your browsing history? Is porn something that you've got to kind of have this secretive energy around in your life? Is it something you have to hide, keep a secret? Something you have to lie about, right? Anytime we carry this energy of hiding, of lying, of secrecy in our life and in our close relationships, that's an indicator that maybe what we're doing is, is unhealthy behavior. So is porn something that negatively affects you emotionally? Is porn something that you have to hide in your life or lie about? And number 3, a really clear, obvious, um, indicator might be Have you told yourself that you were going to quit? Have you tried to quit? Have you made the commitment, the promise to quit, but you have been unable to quit? Have you told yourself, I am done, this is my last time, I don't like the way it feels? Maybe you made a commitment to a partner or something like that, but you continue to return. You find yourself out of control with the behavior. That would be another indication or sign that maybe you do have an addictive or compulsive relationship with it. And maybe some additional support would be needed in terms of resolving it for yourself.

Okay, and to elaborate on number 2, um, yeah, you know, the, the hiding, uh, yeah, because you mentioned would you be comfortable handing your phone to your, your, uh, spouse? That's something if you're to establish a healthy marriage, you have to be able to— my wife has access to everything. She has access to my emails, she knows all my passwords, she has access to my phone, my calendar, just about anything she wants, and You know, she doesn't search my phone, but she can gladly search my phone anytime, uh, uh, vice versa. And like, you know, her fingerprint, she can open up my phone, she knows the passcode, I can open up her phone. Like, there's no hiding anything there. I think that's how a healthy relationship— actually, I know that's how a healthy relationship needs to work. Uh, you know, if, if you're needing to hide your phone, your apps, your thing like that, or you're nervous about passing them over to your spouse, there's something wrong there, and that needs to be dug into, even if it's not pornography. And, you know, we've had— I've had friends that won't, you know, they won't share their phones with their spouses before, and it's wrong. And those friends have genuine issues that I just happen to know about, that there's reasons they don't want their spouse. And they use excuses like, oh, well, you know, uh, I use the phone for work, and, you know, it would be a HIPAA violation, or it would be right public acts or whatever it is. They come up with some excuse on why they can't do it. It's just, it's usually pretty bogus.

Yeah.

You know, there needs to be full transparency and full trust. And, you know, like I said, I have zero issue. My laptops and phones are always open to my wife and she knows the passwords and can access them anytime. And I think she can even access them from her phone. So Yeah, that's one that— those are signs of that there's an issue in the relationship typically.

Exactly, exactly.

You know, it's a marriage, it's not two roommates living together.

That's right.

All right, well listen, I appreciate you having on. I know we're starting to run a little close on time. Why don't you sign off, finish with your name, the company, how people get ahold of you, how people find you, and—

Sure.

Uh, you know, a little tagline for how you can help them.

I appreciate that. Yeah, my name is Matt Sinkovitz, uh, the founder of the Porn to Purpose community. Uh, if you would like to get in touch, I'm real easy to connect with and, uh, you know, very approachable. Whatever, whatever would be good for you. A couple places you can find us, um, we have a Facebook group. It's called Porn to Purpose. It's a private men's only community, a place where men are getting together and having this conversation and stepping out of the darkness and stepping out all the shame and all the crap and the loneliness that often comes with porn addiction and getting into healthy community and conversation around it. So Porn to Purpose on Facebook, you can also find me there. Uh, you can go to porntopurpose.com and download a free copy of the Freedom from Porn Accelerator, which is a free guide that we have, um, to help you navigate actually the urge to use porn. Um, or you could just send me a direct email at makingpeace withporn@gmail.com. And if, if you're not on Facebook or whatever, you want to connect direct, that's how you can connect with me.

All right, beautiful. I appreciate you coming on, and, uh, uh, glad, glad we finally created a podcast around this. I know it's been touched on in other ones, but we haven't had one that just focused on it yet. So I appreciate you coming on.

Thanks so much for having me, Townsend Russell.

Absolutely. Have a good one.

You too, brother.

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