IWD- Kyle Mitchell Discusses Social Anxiety with Dads and Kids S2:E2

I am at NASA right now, so I am on their Wi-Fi, bad cell signal. So hopefully if you see any freeze-ups or anything, just let me know and we'll, uh, we'll go back to it. Sound good?

Did you say you're in NASA?

Yes, in Houston.

Oh, okay, cool.

All right, cool. Uh, go and get started. Uh, introduce yourself. Uh, if I remember right, mental health coach, uh, 27, 3 kids, and that's about all I know. So introduce yourself to the podcast world.

Yeah, so my name is Kyle Mitchell. Kind of like you said, I'm, you know, I'm a mental health coach. I think I'd more classify as like a social confidence coach. I help people with social anxiety go from socially anxious to socially confident. That's kind of my background is I struggled with social anxiety growing up. Ever since I was a little kid, all the way up into the early college years before I learned some different ways and techniques to help myself to overcome social anxiety and keep that from being the, you know, the director of my decisions in life. I, you know, I took back control.

Social anxiety being what, hanging out with other people, introducing yourself to people? That kind of thing?

Uh, the most basic way to, you know, define it is just being anxious in social situations. So yeah, I mean, really anytime you're, you know, just around people in general, whether it's just talking people, but it could also be as simple as like standing in line at McDonald's or something too.

All right, how many kids you got?

I have 3 kids.

3 kids. Uh, ages?

Uh, 6, 5, and 2.

6, 5, and 2. Married? Yes. Uh, how long you been married?

Uh, almost 4 years now.

Uh, is that wife, uh, mom of all 3 kids? Yes. Okay. Yeah. Uh, so 2 kids and you got married and had a third?

Yes.

Okay, you're 27, so you guys met when you were what, 20, 21? I guess started having kids around that age, or got married. Where am I at? You started having kids about age 21, right?

That's it. I even have to think. Um, uh, we met— first met when I was 20. I think it was right before I turned 21. So yeah, yeah, I was 21. That was when I had my first kid. Not a whole lot of bars for me.

Okay. Um, did you say you guys met when you were 20? Yeah, so that was quick.

Yeah, yeah. Um, that actually— my, my first daughter is not biologically mine, so I— yeah, I met her, my first daughter, when she was 3 months old. Uh, I guess luckily for me, the, you know, the biological father was never in the life, so I kind of have just been the father the whole way, and I kind of don't see her as different. Just kind of, oh, it's my daughter. I kind of forget sometimes.

Yep, just interviewed that, uh, a couple days ago in the exact same spot. You know, I think they met while she was pregnant, right after she had delivered, and, uh, we basically raised the kid as, as his, although he never finalized the adoption. Um, and now the girl's 18 years old, uh, but still, uh, you know, they're close as ever. But, um, did you, uh, do an adoption?

No, we didn't do an adoption. I mean, we did get her name changed, I don't remember all the details, but I remember we didn't need to do it, there was no necessary reason to do so.

Okay, and the other dad's not there, not involved?

Yeah, not involved, that's how we keep it.

Okay, cool. Did you guys choose to go after or accept child support, or are you just letting it all, let him not be a part of it?

No, no, yeah, we didn't wanna do that at all, yeah.

Cool, smart move. Okay, 6'5", 6'5" and 2, right?

Yeah.

All right, you've been married a couple years now, but together for about 5, 6 years. All right, did college, did you go to college?

Yeah, I did.

What college did you go to?

I went to Indiana University Southeast.

Okay, what part of Indiana are you from?

Uh, Southern Indiana.

So I've got grandparents in Indianapolis, that's what I was asking. So I know, like, I know the northern part of Indianapolis, that's about it. That Carmel— Carmel, I think it is. Carmel. Carmel. Um, all right, and, uh, what do you do as a career?

Yeah, so my 9 to 5, I do marketing.

Okay, any specific type of marketing?

Um, I mean, I guess I would say digital marketing, but I'm pretty sure that's all marketing really is now. But, uh, yeah, I do a lot of stuff with the Facebook ads, um, social media, email.

Yeah, cool. Uh, is that on your own or, uh, for a company?

Uh, that's for a company.

Cool.

Yeah.

All right, um, and so you're trying to, uh, or I guess you're in the, uh the social anxiety space.

Yeah, social anxiety, mental health. Yeah.

All right, so why don't you elaborate on that? Just tell us, I guess, what it is, um, or what you're seeing most often. I would think either as it relates to dads or, um, as it relates to kids, uh, because I mean, that's definitely a space that's growing in the kids' world, at least it seems in the social media, uh, life we live. Where the online bullying and the constant comparisons and things like that are, seem to be crippling some kids. Other kids seem to be doing just fine with it, but a rise in suicide rates, and a lot of that is just, you know, being bullied, being picked on, and not feeling content with their lives and happy in their lives, and that they can always be better or look better or sound better, I guess, whatever it is. So What are you seeing out there? And I guess what are the treatments for it?

Yeah, so this is something I like to talk about. Just growing up, you know, I didn't know what even mental health was. I remember that being kind of a big thing for me. Just kind of looking back, kind of where I'm at now and all the stuff that I do in the mental health space. And like, I didn't even know what that stuff was in high school. And so I like to talk about this, you know, and kind of educate the younger generation, speak in schools and stuff. And I love working with my kids on kind of making mental health a priority. But yeah, you're right. I mean, there's definitely an uptick in just depression, anxiety, you know, all that stuff. And I mean, it makes sense, right? Because we're all kind of locked in our houses. We're doing a lot of virtual learning. I mean, I've been doing virtual learning with my daughter all day today. So glad that's over. But yeah, I mean, it takes a toll on you when you're just stuck at the house. So what I like to do, and I don't know if there's like a certain sort of like cure or anything like that, but I mean, my whole message is just make your mental health just as much of a priority as your physical health. So I mean, just like we, you know, go to the gym, try to get stronger, try to, you know, stay healthy, we also want to take care of our mind just like we do, you know, just like it's a gym. So, so that's— I do some things with my kids to make sure, you know, they, they are keeping their mental health at an optimal level and they kind of understand growing up from a young age, like, and seeing this, these practices and stuff that we do is like something that's normal. Like we meditate before we go to bed and when we wake up we do gratitude. And that's just stuff that I didn't, you know, grow up on personally, but it's super helpful for them. And I wish I would have had that experience because it would have made my life a heck of a lot easier.

Okay, so, um, so those are two of the exercises you do, um, where it's meditation in the morning and then gratitude. What, saying out loud or keeping a journal, or, or what are you talking about there?

Yeah, so I mean, for me personally, I do gratitude in a journal. I mean, for my kids Yeah, only one of them can really write. So yeah, we just do stuff out loud. One big thing I like to do is keep it relevant to the past 24 hours. Because if you just start, you know, labeling off stuff that you're grateful for, you know, grateful for my house, you know, for my kids, you know, it's not that we're not grateful for this stuff, but it comes kind of stale because it's just stuff that, you know, we're kind of used to every day. So if you keep it, you know, relevant within that past 24 hours, like, you know, I'm grateful that today is the last virtual day of the week for my daughter. You know, I'm grateful that, you know, it's the weekend tomorrow. And, you know, just trying to keep it relevant and it gets your mind in that, that mental space to kind of retrain your mind to think in a gratitude mindset instead of kind of what we typically go for is kind of like, what's the bad in this situation? And by doing that gratitude, it helps you and kids, anybody who's doing this, you know, look at the— I don't want to say the positive side, but have more of an attitude of gratitude type of thing.

Yeah. And the meditation, what does that involve?

Yeah, so I mean, that's something we do every morning, every night. Um, super simple, you know, they have kids meditations that are anywhere from 1 to like 5 minutes long. I mean, with my oldest, who's 6, we usually do like a 3-minute meditation, and, and then my, uh, second child, we do, you know, like a 1 or 2-minute one. But I mean, just for kids, like, it's really just like simple breathing techniques, really just like focusing on your breath. Putting your— I know the one my daughter likes to do that helps her calm down when she starts getting kind of riled up is what we call the calm meditation, where it's just putting your hand on your belly, closing your eyes, and just focusing on your breath, taking a deep breath in, feeling your stomach get up like a balloon, and then exhale and just feel your hand go back down. And that's been a savior for me because my middle child, She definitely has some episodes, I guess you want to call them, where she's kind of, I don't know if she's having anxiety exactly or not. She just turned 5, so it's kind of something that we've been working on with her to try to express her feelings with kind of what's going on. But sometimes she kind of gets out there and needs some help coming back down to level. So that really helps her a lot.

Sure. So I do a similar thing with my oldest because he's got OCD-style anxiety. He just gets real high real quick because he's OCD, wants everything to be perfect, and when it's not, he just goes crazy. But when I wrestled at WVU, we had a— I think it was a sports psychiatrist. The guy was like an Olympian rifleist, gold medal winner sometime in the '80s. And so he would come in like once or twice a week to practice and, you know, there's a lot of things he taught, but one of them that stuck out for me was a breathing exercise. He'd get all the wrestlers, we'd sit against the wall, they dimmed down the lights and we'd run through some breathing exercises. And one of them was you take a big deep breath tense all your muscles to the point and just hold your breath as long as possible, uh, while clenching all your muscles. And then when, you know, he would say so, you would let go slowly and then breathe out slowly, and you just like feel everything kind of melt away. And we would do that in a series. So that's one of the things I've been working with him of doing. Of course, he's 10, so he purposely does it wrong sometimes when he's getting all worked up. So he'll just go do some stuff to irritate me, but for the most part, it seems to work when he does it right. And there's something, you know, I only— back then, I just didn't care about, you know, sports psychiatry that much. I thought it was cool, but I never practiced that in my outside life really until I had a kid that I saw was going through some extreme stressors and figured, you know, maybe that's something that'll help him. Is that, is that a technique you've implied, or I guess applied before, uh, or are you just— when you talk about meditation, are you just talking about, uh, and focusing on your breathing? Are you just like, clear your head, you need to focus on something, so might as well focus on the breathing, that way you can just clear and get into that calm space?

Yeah, I mean, so we do lots of different ones. I mean, that was just an example. Um, I do like that. Tense enough, I've never heard of that exact kind of breathing technique, but that is interesting. But we do some ones where we kind of, like the one in the morning that we do a lot of times is like made to wake you up. So we lay on the floor and you know, you start with just like some few deep breaths and whatnot. And then you kind of start just kind of going through each part of your body. So it'll say like, you know, wiggle your toes, start to feel them get active and then, you know, kind of wiggle your legs and then just kind of like works all the way up through your body. And so you've kind of slowly but surely got all your muscles moving and, uh, twitched up a little bit. It's where you're kind of up and ready for the day, and you've got more of a, a presence mindset on what's going on with your body instead of just waking up unintentionally.

So it's kind of like a little yoga session.

Yeah, yeah, we've done yoga too before.

Alright, so outside of those things, I guess, let's break away from the kids and go to like on a dad, a dad that's facing anxiety, whether it's in his job or his marriage or his whatever in his life. I guess, do you see anything in that space that's been more frequent than others? And I guess, how are you treating it?

Yeah, so I mean, for me personally, and what I help people do is create a morning routine. I think that's such an important thing to do to kind of help you get your brain kind of mentally charged for the day. And just like you charge your phone in the morning, you want to make sure it's, you know, good to go before you go off and do whatever you're supposed to do. I think of my, you know, my brain is the same way. It's like a battery. So you want to make sure that your mental health battery is completely charged so you're ready to face, you know, whatever challenges you might come across, whatever anxieties you might come across. And for me and for the people I've helped, it's, you know, helps you decrease anxiety. You feel, you just feel better about yourself. You feel happier. You feel, you feel more confident. And kind of like I said earlier, just doing these morning routines is where you're not waking up kind of— maybe not waking up unintentionally, but you're not starting your day unintentionally. It's not just like waking up and going and, you know, getting in there, eating breakfast, getting in the car and going to work or whatever, but you have some time to yourself to really just like mentally prepare yourself.

So it's kind of you taking control of the day versus letting it happen to you. I get that. So that— so that's like, um, for someone who has anxiety, you you know, how to kind of prevent it, I guess, or take control of it. What about the dad who doesn't really get anxiety a lot, just every once in a while, he's just got a situation, maybe work or the marriage, and it's just, it's kind of, it's just peaking. So it's not a normal thing, he's not looking for like day-to-day advice, but like he's just got high anxiety right now 'cause he's in a situation. What are some, I guess, tips you could give him to, to deal with it.

Yeah, so my first question would be, what's triggering that anxiety? I mean, a lot of times we think of anxieties as a bad thing, and really its job is just— it's just trying to protect us. It's just trying to protect us from harm. That's, that's literally its entire job. So a lot of times we have anxiety and it's completely warranted. Um, just an example that comes to mind, a couple months ago over at my neighbor's house, we were outside and they, uh, one of their kids got lost, or they couldn't find them for about 10 or 15 minutes. So, you know, her mother was kind of, you know, she was definitely getting anxious and kind of freaking out. Um, ended up finding her, and she came up to me and was like, sorry, you know, I just, I got, I got really anxious about that, and I need to work on that. And I was like, I mean, seems like a perfectly normal reason to get anxious. I mean, that's a That's just something that's there to protect you. So, um, yeah, that would be my, my first thing is, you know, this anxiety might not be a bad thing. It might be there to protect you, and, you know, you might actually need it. I mean, she needed that anxiety. If she didn't have that anxiety at that time, then she would be, you know, not caring about where her daughter was. So that would be the first thing. But, um, if you are, you know, experiencing anxiety you know, in a situation, and it's, you know, it's not really warranted. You know, there's several different things that you can do. But for me, if you can just go and do some box breathing, I don't know if you've ever heard of that or not. But just me personally, that's something that I like to do a lot.

Box breathing? Yeah.

Yeah. So they call it that because it's 4-second breaths. So you like inhale for 4 seconds, hold that breath for 4 seconds, exhale for 4 seconds, and then hold that exhale out for 4 seconds. And then you do that for like 4 or 5 times, and that just like activates the parasympathetic nervous system, which kind of decreases your blood pressure and just your, your stressors going on in your body and just like naturally relaxes you. So yeah, that's, that's kind of like my go-to technique if I'm feeling anxious in a situation like that.

Going back to breathing again.

Yeah, breathing is powerful, man.

Yeah. Okay. I guess the same thing will play out the kids if you got a kid who's like, you know, just in one of those high intense anxiety situations, the practice breathing techniques.

Yeah, yeah, it really does work. And I'm not going to say it's 100% though, either. For example, yesterday, my, my daughter was— I mean, she was tripping when I picked her up from preschool. And we tried to do box, or we tried to do some, you know, breathing techniques, and she just wasn't having it. She would not, you know, listen to anything I was saying. And I was just trying to figure it out. I'm like, I mean, I have no idea how to help her. I'm like asking her, like, I want to help you, like, how do I help you? And she's just kind of, kind of in that zone. And so what I asked her is like, you know, how are you feeling? You know, like, what feeling are you having? You know, she wasn't able to answer me. She was way too upset. And so I was like, are you feeling sad? And she was like, no. I was like, are you feeling angry? And she was like, yeah. I was like, okay, cool. Now we've I was able to help her identify what this feeling she was having before, 'cause I mean, just before that, she just kept telling me, "Help me, help me, help me calm down." I'm like, "I don't know what to do." So yeah, we identified that feeling and then I was like, "Okay, so why are you feeling that way? Tell me what's up. What's causing you to feel angry? What's going on?" And so, you know, kind of long story short, my, my dad, her grandpa was supposed to pick her up from school, and he ended up not being able to. That's why I went and picked her up. And, you know, she was upset about that. And then that was the next thing. I was like, it's all about validating that emotion that she was feeling. So I said, yeah, I would feel angry too, if somebody said something to me and then didn't come through. That would make me feel angry. I feel angry when people do that. And she like, you kind of like start to see it on her face. Like it almost was like, you know, she was starting to calm down and kind of realize like, oh, I'm not alone in this feeling. And so yeah, we came up with a plan to, you know, call him up and she was able to tell him how she felt, why she felt that way. And yeah, and then it completely resolved from there. So that was, It was one of those moments as a dad, you're just like, ah, yes, like you just feel really good about it. It was like awesome to see her identify her emotions like that. Like, that just kind of psyches me up because I was like, I couldn't have done anything like that when I was a kid.

So none of these tips are, um, run away.

Oh no, no, I mean, we're all different human beings, right? Just like, just like no diet, you know, works for everybody. I mean, keto works for some people, vegan. I mean, there's no one-size-fits-all diet. I mean, there's all sorts of things that you can do. You know, meditation, you know, it doesn't work for some people, other people it works great. You know, gratitude works for some people, other people, you know, not so much.

Well, so what I was getting to a point was, uh, was none of the examples you're giving are, are don't deal with it or run away or avoid. It's more take it head on. Like, this is something that you need to confront, you need to deal with, whether you're a kid or an adult. You need to, you need to, I guess, step up to the challenge. And when you feel anxiety, not try and run from it, not move away so you don't feel that, you know, not, not quit the job or quit the marriage so you don't feel anxiety. Because we all know that's not going to solve it. You'll just feel it somewhere else or with someone else. That you need to be able to identify and handle it. Yeah, and that's what I think a lot of dads go to is, you know, you gotta handle like a man or deal with it like a man. And a lot of people I know will think meditation and breathing is not manly. You know, Division I wrestler, you know, that's what we were doing in a very, you know, violent sport. So you know, breathing exercises, you know, I'm 100% okay with. I don't do a lot of meditation. I definitely do a lot of thinking. I definitely do prayer time, just because I'm Catholic. And that's probably very similar.

Yeah, that's a form of it.

Yeah, for sure. But definitely, I, you know, you got to confront your anxiety, you got to deal with it, you got to plow through it. And, you know, I think I put out a meme not too long ago that sometimes the best treatment to your anxiety is just to keep pushing forward. You know, if it's, you know, a presentation you're nervous or struggling with at work, you know, to be able to push through that, to not cower and hide and, you know, stop working on it. You know, if it's in your marriage, is to push through and confront it head on. You know, avoiding conversations, I feel like, is stupid sometimes because that's what a lot of place. A lot of what I've seen with anxiety is it's with another person. You're nervous about another person. You've gotten in some sort of, uh, fight or some awkward situation. And often it's best just to, you know, call out the white elephant in the room, deal with it. It's that tiptoeing, or it's that tiptoeing around and trying to avoid it that I think, uh, fuels some of that anxiety. Whereas if we just punch it in the face and deal with it, it's almost a treatment for it.

Yeah, I mean, the confrontation part of it is hard. I mean, that's something I struggled with a lot growing up, whether it's confronting my anxiety or, you know, confronting, you know, people in my life. Yeah, that's something that was very uncomfortable to me. And then that was something I did for, you know, my own anxiety and social anxiety was I confronted it. I consistently put myself in situations that I knew would cause me to feel that. So I mean, I would, for example, I mean, I would do what I, what we call baby steps. It's just like dipping your toe in the anxiety water, so to speak, you know, doing little things that, you know, make you anxious. That, you know, you really don't have any reason to be anxious for and just doing them consistently over and over again until you no longer feel it. First time I did this was in college, I think it was my sophomore year. And I was, you know, I was struggling, I was still having a hard time. And I got to the point where I was like, screw this, I'm gonna figure this out. And I'm just gonna confront this, I'm gonna do it every single time. And so I came up with this plan where it was like, okay, in every single class, I'm gonna raise my hand, I'm gonna participate, answer a question, I'm gonna, you know, participate somehow one time in every single class, because I was, you know, that person that tried to hide under the radar that made me extremely uncomfortable. I felt like people were judging me, and they were going to think what I was saying was stupid. And so I wanted to confront that anxiety that my brain was putting out there telling me not to to it and say, okay, I'm gonna do it every time.

And once you put yourself out there, then you realize it's not end of the world. It's not as scary as you made it up to be inside your head.

Oh, exactly, 100%. I mean, the first time I did it, I was just sweating, my heart was beating out of my chest, you know, my foot is tapping. And probably like a month, maybe a month and a half later, I was raising my hand, probably, I was probably the most participative, you know, student in the class. I mean, I was raising my hand out of pure, you know, because I enjoyed it. And I wasn't anxious about it anymore. And that's what, you know, really sparked my journey of kind of doing uncomfortable social challenges to really help me with my social anxiety. And, you know, that's what did it for me in the long run.

Alright. What else do you have to say on the mental health space?

Yeah, so I mean, since we're two guys here, I feel like I've been talking about this a lot lately. Just in our culture, kind of as men, you know, we're kind of like trained to not, you know, express feelings and feelings are kind of seen as weak, and, you know, we're supposed to just hold it all in, and we have to be, we have to be strong and all that stuff. And honestly, I think all that stuff is weak. I, I think not expressing your feelings, I think that's weakness. I think not, you know, being able to cry if you feel like crying, I think that's weakness. Uh, I think the real strength is just being vulnerable. If you can express your feelings, uh, if you can feel when you are feeling, you know, and when you can cry in front of people, when you can, you know, talk to your wife about what's going on inside you or talk to a friend about, you know, how you're feeling inside. Like, that's not weakness. That's complete strength. What we always say is vulnerability is a superpower. So, and use it. And not only is it a superpower, but it actually helps you, you know, being vulnerable with other people I mean, that was one of the things that helped me so much in high school was I bottled up everything for so long and I eventually got the courage to go speak to the counselor and I just told her how I was feeling. And while she didn't really do anything for me, I felt so much better afterwards just because I finally was able to tell somebody what was going on inside for me. And that was such a big thing. And that's something I've been really trying to drive home.

Now, are you saying that men need to drop their masculinity, or they just need to— or they can like still be men and do man stuff and still have, you know, a flowing amount of testosterone, um, and just to have a more vulnerable side with those we love? Are we saying we need to drop some of those, uh, more masculine qualities and change them out for, uh, what a lot of people would consider, uh, softer, uh, character traits? So are we introducing some, some, some of this quote-unquote softer, more vulnerable traits, or are we having to exchange them out for, you know, the masculine traditional ones?

No, so, uh, well, what I'm saying is I don't think we should try to be something we're not or try to hide something that we're feeling. Like, if we're feeling You know, if we're feeling scared or we're feeling anxious, we should be able to express that as men and not feel shameful about that. No, I definitely don't think we should be, you know, trying to change masculinity and, you know, adopt or switch out different parts. My whole thing is just we shouldn't feel shameful for, you know, expressing how we actually feel. And, you know, nobody should actually make you feel bad for that.

Sure, because I am all for— so I am all for that. And at the same time, I'm almost re-embracing masculinity and getting out into like a field and hunting. I'm almost to the point where I want to climb a tree with a knife, wait for an animal to walk underneath me, and drop down on it and kill it that way. Like, not even with a gun anymore, just go like true old-school caveman, you know, make a knife out, you know, from, from you know, a fire pit, um, you know, banging out like a blacksmith would. Uh, I hate having— I hate having a beard. I think beards are stupid. And I know, like, the, the trend right now, um, just because it's a cool thing, is to have beard. And you go to all this man shop and they have beard oils and everything. I hate beards. I just also hate shaving. Um, but, but I know that's like a cool man thing to do right now. Um, I mean, I just, I, you know, I can't even think of some other things. But like, I am all for promoting those old-school masculine traits and almost coming back to our roots in that sense. But at the same time, being able to, uh, you know, open up and be— especially to the ones we love most, especially to our children. They need to be able to see that Dad has an open and vulnerable side because that's going to help you connect deeper with them. Same thing with your wife. That's gonna help your marriage in the long run. You know, I don't necessarily think you need to be crying on the shoulder of every neighbor you'll ever have. Right. But, you know, having a few good friendships, like genuine friendships where you can actually open up and talk about things you wouldn't talk about other people with, 'cause, you know, guys typically have their guard up for a while. You know, most friends, for men are, are more acquaintances instead of like real friends, which I think is a normal thing. But I think having a couple close ones— and that helps when you have childhood friends that really know you well. But, you know, certainly opening up to spouses, opening up to kids, letting them see that vulnerable side, I, I think it's, it's, it's huge in that bonding aspect with them. Oh yeah, but don't take away them, but don't, but don't take away masculinity. And I don't think it's one or the other because that's what we see a lot, um, you know, in, you know, in my inbox for messages and in the comment field is, you know, if, if a man does anything that's, um, thoughtful or kind or, or interpreted as soft, then he can't be both. So he's just a complete pussy and he's soft and he's a wuss and he's the problem with America and America's men. And in reality, he can be both. He can be the hard-ass dad and he could be kind and caring and loving. He can be both.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. And that's, that's, you know, something I felt growing up. I felt kind of shameful of myself because I felt like, you know, I wasn't, you know, like, like all the other guys because I had a hard time sometimes, you know, controlling my feelings and how to express them and stuff.

So yeah, what else you want to talk about?

How many kids do you have?

I've got 3, uh, 10, 7, 4, all boys.

Gotcha. Do you— I'm switching over, I'm the interviewer now. But, uh, no, do you do any, uh, mental health practices with them, or do you do any kind of rituals or anything like that? I know you do the breathing stuff with your son.

Not day-to-day, Rich. Not things that are intentional as mental health. There's probably things we do that could be, that you would say are, and we just don't know. We are a praying family, so we pray most nights. You know, we do, we live together because we're touring for 2 years. So we live together in 420 square feet and we have the one vehicle. So we are together 24/7. So there is lots of time for communication. Lots of time for talking and bonding, way more than nearly any other dad, especially since I don't work anymore. This is my job, you know, so like being in a family is my job in a sense. I mean, we just have an inordinate amount of time together. And so all those things, you know, the way we wake up and spend time together are probably things you might incorporate into somebody else's life Where if they're having day-to-day anxieties, then maybe, hey, we need to spend more time with this kid. We need to wake up together, have breakfast as a family together every day, start the day off right, or, you know, pray together at night, or, you know, have, you know, game nights or things like that. All things that kind of help address those— the whatever area of life we're trying to address. And those are things we just do all the time because we're on top of each other all the time. I just got delivered some astronaut ice cream.

Astronaut ice cream, wow. I think I had that one time when I was, you know, a long time ago.

It's not great.

Yeah, see, I don't remember it being very good.

It's not. Um, so, so we really don't do anything super intentional. Um, we're just, we're just a good family that's stuck with each other all the time. So I think some of those things just naturally happen because there's really no other choice when you're together as, as often as we are.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, just, you know, being with them like you've been saying, just having that, that bonding time and really creating that connection, you know, with your kids. Um, that's Yeah, yeah, we—

so we, we actually need to find ways to create the opposite. We, we need to find ways to create separation and, um, alone time and things like that, um, which is difficult to do when we're in a new city every week or two, um, you know, in a new home. And, uh, you know, it's not like we have babysitters that we know nearby or we have family nearby. Unless it's a COVID world. So, you know, those are probably— if we have struggles, those are, those are our struggles, is how do we get our kids kind of some time apart from each other, or even us apart from our kids, and giving us, you know, time to breathe and not be on top of each other. So it would be the opposite. We're trying to find ways to incorporate things you would normally struggle with at home and bring those into our life. But we're just running opposite of the rest of the world right now, so it's, it's not a, it's not a thing that most people can compare to.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. When you're torn, you know, that's, uh, stuff. Yeah, it made me think of, and like I said, this probably wouldn't work for you just because you are moving around a lot, but yeah, we always do try to have our kids just— they like to have them in some sort of extracurricular activity A little bit harder with now with COVID but like my daughter into gymnastics, my oldest one. But yeah, she tried a bunch of different little sports and just different things. And now she kind of has that thing that's, you know, that's, that's kind of her thing. And she has a lot of, she has a lot of pride and confidence in that now. And that's, that's something that's really cool to see.

So we ended up, obviously we're not doing that now. Um, but we were, we were a baseball family, basketball. Um, you know, we never did gymnastics. Well, actually, I think the kids did gymnastics every once in a while. Um, we actually had to be careful with extra because extracurriculars can take over your life, especially as the kids get older and you have 2, 3, 4 going in all separate directions. And really, um, it got to a point where we were not enjoying life anymore, uh, because we were all, you know, schedules were always changing, practices were getting moved around. We just had to be at different places at different times, and, you know, we had work to contend with, and, um, you know, we just— we weren't even eating together at, um, for dinner anymore. We were always just scrambling. And it, it gets to a point where it's so enjoyable. Like, you're doing all these things so you have a better life, being these extracurricular activities, and so the kids have a better life and more exposure. And then life is just miserable because you're just running around, and life is always chaos, and So what we ended up doing is taking a season off. So I think it was normally our fall season, um, was it fall or spring? I can't remember. But we would take a season off and just— there were no extracurriculars. We weren't doing anything. We just lived life as a family. You know, after work I'd come home, you know, family would always be there. Uh, we had nothing to do in the evenings. And so that was kind of our, um, our break, I guess, if you could say, just because You know, especially as kids get older, it just gets crazier and crazier and crazier. And we as a family just made a decision. We didn't enjoy it. So, so we were gonna every once in a while just take a break off of extracurriculars, um, to enjoy life a little bit more. Doesn't mean we gave them up completely, you know, we still did them the other seasons, but it just, it got old running around everywhere all the time.

Yeah, yeah, I can imagine. Um, maybe I'm learning that lesson before I get there, so thank you for that. But, uh, yeah, that makes me think of, um, like you said, like aligning schedules and making sure everything's like that. Because yeah, if things just is like everywhere all the time and you're, you know, you're losing that, that family bonding time because everyone's kind of separate and stuff like that, um, you know, we, we did that in the past You know, I was working day shifts and then my wife was working pretty much night shift. She would get up at like 3 in the morning. And so, I mean, it was tough because, you know, she's working like 5 days a week doing that. And so we weren't eating dinner as a family and we, you know, we hardly ever saw mom and it was just hard to like be together as a unit. And man, we did that for, for too long, for probably about 2 years. And And we eventually said, you know, we got to make a change here. So the reason she's staying at that job so long is she was trying to, you know, get to another position. And it got to the point where it was like, we kind of sat down with each other and it was like, this is not worth it. Like, we're not happy doing this. We're, you know, we're never together. And so yeah, that was a big change we made probably about a year and a half ago. As, uh, yeah, she got a different job and yeah, now we can eat dinner together just about every single night and just spend a lot more family time together, which is, which is great. I mean, that, that was, that was a tough 2 years. That was a tough one.

Yeah. Well, I mean, and, and sometimes you have to do what you gotta do to survive. Sometimes it's about you have to sacrifice a family for a little bit to bring home, um, a living wage. Um, you know, to provide for yourself. It's when it's— it's— you can be comfortable, you can have that living wage with a more comfortable life, that you kind of have to assess those things. And in the end, you just gotta do what's best for you. Yeah, we actually— we actually— so we did that with church too, now that I'm remembering. It got to a point to where, um, church was becoming a frustration for us. Um, and I feel the same way with extracurricular activities. Like, when you're constantly yelling and fighting to get out the door at a specific time to cram food. Why did you forget this? Why didn't you bring that? Where are your cleats? Why wasn't your uniform washed? It should have been washed last night. You know, we were facing the same thing with going to church in the morning was, you know, where are your shoes? Why aren't you dressed? We gotta get out the door. We're gonna be late. You know, especially when your kids are younger, it's sometimes hard to get them in the car, fed, dressed. Um, you know, by the time you get one dressed, you move on to the second or third, the other one's already stripped down naked running through the neighborhood. Um, yeah, which is, you know, fun if you're not under a time pressure. Uh, when you're under a time pressure, it's a lot less fun. And so it got to the point we stopped going. We made a decision as a family to stop going to church as often, um, not giving up on God or anything like that. Um, it just got to the point we weren't enjoying— like, we couldn't enjoy the church service anymore. We were always fighting with a kid or trying to keep them quiet or calm or getting there. And, um, uh, it became better for us for to make our Sundays about the family, not about stressing and getting to church on time and making sure the kids behaved and making sure we, you know, there's sometimes we got to church and we didn't, you know, one of the kids wouldn't even have shoes. You know, luckily we're from Florida, so that's kind of accepted, but And so we started making Sunday— we would go out in nature, we'd go on hikes and walks together, and it was just— it became a lot more enjoyable for us as a family. And we could still do, you know, some Bible lessons, and we could still do prayer time as a family. So we didn't lose God or anything like that, but we did make sure we were enjoying that as a family. We didn't want our kids growing up in a family to where church became synonymous with, um, you're always getting yelled at. Um, we just didn't want that for them. We didn't want that for us. So we ended up shifting Sundays to be more, uh, you know, more about nature almost. Like, we would just go out and do things as a family, pack a lunch. We wake up when we, when we kind of wake up and, you know, enjoy the, the time together in the morning and, and, you know, get dressed at our own pace and then go out and Um, you know, Florida's got a lot of nature, so we go out to a different park or spring or a hike or the beach or whatever it was, just, you know, just kind of spend time as a family in a, in a, in a much happier setting. It's just something we decided as a family we need to do. And, you know, there were some people at church that were upset with us for that, that felt like we were losing, um, losing our faith or things like that. It was just the opposite. We were trying to preserve it, if anything. Um, uh, And, you know, God's still a very big part of our life, so it's not like it's been forgotten about. It's just, you know, you got to make decisions that are, that are best for your family, not because somebody else tells you to do so, or, or, you know, because you're trying to, I don't know, be something else or, or be like somebody else. Do what's best for you, you know, it, what makes sense for your family.

Right, yeah, I mean, that's interesting. I mean, you've never— I've never heard anybody, you know, doing what you just described, so I can imagine that being very hard just because kind of society tells us, you know, at least in the Christian Catholic kind of society, that, you know, everybody, you go to church every Sunday. There is no every other Sunday or once a month or whatever frequency. But yeah, I mean, that makes sense to me. I mean, I can definitely relate. I remember, you know, growing up as a kid in a very religious family, and our family's religious as well. But, you know, I did not have fond feelings of church. I did not like church at all. It was not a fun thing for me. I associated church with bad, basically, because I just did not enjoy it. And it was from a lot of the things, it was, you know, screaming, getting everybody to, you know, get there on time and getting dressed and, uh, that's real.

Yeah, that's real.

Yeah, I mean, it took me in because of that when I kind of got on my own and was independent and it was, you know, not forced to go to church. I mean, I didn't go to church for, I don't know, 2 or 3 years or so because that was, you know, I associated it with as bad, not fun, not good for me. Why would I do that? So it took me a while to kind of rewire and get back in that mode. COVID's kind of doing that again for me as well with the kind of going from the in-person to online. And just with the online stuff, it's, it's almost like you're not holding yourself accountable as much, or, or like the church isn't holding you accountable. At least that's how it's been for me.

Yeah, in person's always— I would much rather talk to someone in person because the conversations are just better and more authentic than even this conversation where there's a screen and a microphone. It's just, it's different, and it's, it's hard to identify the tangible aspect of that. But, um, uh, you know, when I sit down with somebody, I just— conversations get much more in-depth. It's more real, um, than it is this way. And I'm sure that translates to those church services as well.

Yeah, 100%. I mean, you can feel people's vibes, right? Like when you're in person, I mean, I can kind of feel it, feel your vibe, but it's kind of hard to do that over a screen, especially when I'm looking at a camera right now and I'm not making eye contact with you because then it looks like I'm not looking at you. That's the weirdest thing for me with the online stuff is like it's kind of going off what we're, you know, used to doing. You know, when you're having a conversation, you're making eye contact, but you make eye contact on here, it doesn't look like I'm making eye contact with you. And so you just kind of like feel, you know, you know, that's not like a thing. Like, you know, he's not even looking at me, or he's looking at his phone. But kind of subconsciously, like, you kind of get in there.

It's—

yeah, it's odd.

Just, just so you know, I've been looking at you the whole time. I, I've never even thought to look at the camera. I'd be too distracted.

I try— usually when I talk, I try to like talk into the camera Um, but sometimes I forget. But yeah, I don't know, it's just like a weird dynamic. I'm not sure what's the right way.

That doesn't matter. All right, uh, anything else you want to cover?

I would like to know why you're in NASA. I don't know if this is podcast material, but, uh, because I'm in Houston.

That's what you do, you go to NASA. So we've been here since like, uh, 10 o'clock this morning. Already did one of the tram tours, uh met an astronaut. Right now I'm sitting in the cafeteria. So I think the Space Center is usually pretty packed, and it's not because of COVID So that's one thing we've really enjoyed traveling is the things that are open are just not packed at all. Um, so it's been really fun. So we get like free rein of the place, and, um, you're not waiting in line. I mean, you can see how everything's set up. Like here, like I'm in the cafeteria right now. Yeah, and there is nobody.

Yeah, and I'm sure usually it's packed.

Yeah, normally packed. Um, um, you know, you can see all like the, the lines to the trams and everything. They have all those big fans, it's like Universal Studios or Disney, you know. And we're reading reviews of the places, you know, the only real negative complaints were, you know, you got to wait about what, an hour and a half for everything. Um, we're just walking right on, so it's enjoyable. But yeah, so we're in Houston, um, and NASA's here, so we go and, you know, explore and learn. And how could you skip NASA?

Yeah, I've never been to Texas, but if I ever do, I'll definitely check that out.

I've been here for— since early November. We did a cut now, so we got to Amarillo, Texas, coming out of Colorado. Um, I think like November 3rd, uh, and then we did a couple weeks— now we did like a week and a week and a half in Oklahoma City, uh, and I think we did like 4 days in Louisiana and Shreveport. But, you know, other than that, we've been in like Dallas, Waco, Austin, San Antonio for a month, and now here. And we'll be in Texas probably for another month or so, just kind of riding out the cold and then we'll end up pushing west, do— if New Mexico ever opens back up, New Mexico and Arizona, and go up the West Coast. And then we'll hit the east half and be in your neck of the woods in Michigan and Wisconsin and Indiana and Iowa and all that jazz. Kentucky, Ohio.

Yeah, yeah, better to wait till it's warm for sure.

We'll be doing all that late summer, fall. Um, you know, by the time we get it done, the West Coast and all Um, so it'll be late summer, fall, and then we'll just kind of see what kind of pace— it's kind of wide open out there, so probably be doing bigger jumps. But, uh, we'll probably try and catch the northeast part of the country, um, the tail end of fall, uh, get up into like high New York, uh, Vermont, uh, you know, that area of the country, and maybe ride out winter as far as we can and then slowly come down. And probably call it quits after that. That'll probably be the end of the tour unless we just feel like keep going. We'll just ride out in Florida in the home state and keep going when everything falls out. Yes, we'll play that by ear.

Yeah, yeah, kind of hard to tell what's going to happen, but we'll see.

Yeah. All right, cool. Well, I appreciate it. I appreciate you coming on.