S2: E 12 IRONDAD joins the 100% Dad Podcast for Dad.

100% Dad interviews with dads. Uh, Iron Dad, we'll let you introduce yourself here in a second, but we met, what, over in Palm Springs? Uh, I think I was out and actually flown out at the time when you came in. You stopped by. I was in Maryland. I flew back in. We caught up, uh, just real quick before we had to pull out the next day. Uh, we had a pretty good talk. I thought— I felt like you had a really interesting story. Uh, Had no idea where it was going in the beginning, and then, uh, you know, it all came together.

Uh, I barely knew where it was going in the beginning.

Yep. So, uh, we should have recorded that. I mean, that was what, an hour and a half, maybe 2 hours?

We were sitting down there on my, uh, on my patio for quite some time.

Yep. So, uh, introduce yourself, who you are, what you do for a living, you know, the whole— the— all the basics.

Yeah, for sure. So, um, I go by Iron Dad. Um, my given name's William, uh, but nowadays more and more I use Iron Dad. That's what people know me by. Um, and I call myself Iron Dad because I do triathlon, uh, long-form triathlon, and I'm a dad. So, um So basically, uh, my son is 16 years old now. My partner and I separated when he was, um, 12, uh, actually 11 at the time, and it was not a particularly amicable separation, and, um, I have my part I actually was getting sober at the time, so it was a lot of changes all happening at once. And, you know, she's a good woman. She took care of my son, you know, when I was in the disease. We say I'm a 12-stepper. That's what we say, in the disease. And, you know, she did what was— what she thought was best for my son. Didn't always agree with her on what was best, and one thing I still don't agree with her on is that she decided that it was best for my son to have as little contact as possible with me. So there was a legal, you know, back and forth, if you will, for 2 years. And then it became very difficult. She moved to France, and to be honest, it's hard for me to say, but my son told me that he never wanted to speak to me again at that time. So that was 2017. And honestly, I was pretty devastated at the time. I really didn't know what to do with myself. But soon after that, it occurred to me that, you know, I could do pretty much anything that was difficult and make it clear that, you know, I was doing this to be the best dad that I could be under the circumstances. And just the first thing that popped into my mind was an Ironman, because I don't— I've never heard anyone say, oh yeah, an Ironman, that sounds pretty easy. So, uh, so I signed up for one. Um, I went to their site and, and, uh, and saw that they had, uh, they were running an Ironman in, in Cozumel on his birthday into, you know, a year, almost a year later., in 2018. And, um, and I signed up for that on the spot. Uh, I only found out later that most people would say that you can't do an Ironman after one season of training, but, uh, I wasn't about to lose $1,000 that I put down on it, so I just trained like hell for that year, and I ended up, uh, running, um, Cozumel 2018, on November 18th. That's myself.

I didn't realize you had to sign up and pay $1,000 to run those things.

Oh yeah, and that's of course before travel costs.

Uh, sure.

And I found out afterwards that they were running an Ironman in, um, Arizona on the exact same date. But honestly, it was, it was just a beautiful experience.

Like, uh, So, so this part— so we're, we're 2017. You— are you sober at that point or not sober?

I got sober in 2016. Okay, early 2016. And then we're talking about late 2007.

That was still post-separation, post, uh, uh, I guess custody battle?

Yeah, it was post-separation, pre-custody battle. Yeah.

Okay. Uh, and so you left this part out when we were talking too. We didn't find out until an hour in the conversation. How much did you weigh at that point?

Right, right. Well, before I got sober, um, you know, one of the things— there's just, you know, when you get sober, there's just so many changes that happen in your life. And for a lot of people, they're actually physical changes. Like, nobody— like, it's— it is so apparent that, that they've changed. It's not just a change in, you know, the way they feel or their, their outlook on life. For me, I weighed 300 pounds and, um, I couldn't run down my driveway, and that's downhill. So, you know, now it's, it's a bit different.

Okay, so, so at 300 pounds, you commit to it, to an Ironman, freshly sober.

At that time, I had been sober for almost 2 years, so I was already— the, the weight—

you had some physical changes. Okay, good. Uh, and you— all right, so you sign up and you did the first Ironman 2000. How many have you done so far?

I've done 2 full Ironmans that are like Ironman branded, and I've done 2 halves in that first season. So that was to work up to the Ironman. And then I did Ultraman Israel, which is, uh, like 3 days of, uh, swimming, biking, and running.

Okay, that sounds super fun. Uh, we're up in a town— they just didn't— I think might have been an Ironman. It was something that you probably know of it, but we're out in, uh, Zion National Park. And so I think St. Is it St. George, Utah? Yeah, because I think they had a big statue or like they had a world championships or something there. And, uh, uh, but I think they just had one this past weekend, so, or some sort of competition.

They run a half there. I've had friends do St. George. Um, I'm not off the top of my head, I'm not sure if they run a full there. A half is basically half the distance of everything, so half the bike, half the run.

So what is the normal length, uh, for an Ironman?

It's a 2.5-mile swim roundabout, it's, uh, uh, 112-mile bike ride, and then a marathon at the end, 26.2 miles.

Okay. And so how long does it like do the best, the best of the best finish that in?

Uh, people are pushing like 8 hours. 8 hours would be— yeah, it's a pretty amazing— like, you know, you look at some of the times in Kona, which is where the world championships are, and, you know, people are finishing the bike. They just had a world record this last year. I don't follow that all that much because it's not really about the times for me and competition, but, but, you know, he was doing the bike in like 4 hours or something. I mean These people, they're no joke.

Yeah, because that's what, 25 miles an hour the entire time plus? Yeah, yeah.

And, and Ironmans aren't draft legal, so he— that wasn't in the middle of a peloton, that was one dude, you know, versus the wind.

Huh. So what does that mean, draft legal? Like, you just can't, like, sucker up behind somebody?

Yeah, yeah, you have to stay a certain distance away.

Does that really help that much on a bike?

Yes, that's why, uh, in, in bike races, you know, like the Tour de France and so on— now I don't know that much about it, a lot of your listeners probably know a lot more than I do, but I know they do.

I just figured at that, you know, when you're at that level of competition, like, every fraction of a second matters. I didn't know it was, you know, that big of an impact.

Yeah, it's actually pretty different discipline, like, uh, triathlon bike riding and, um, and normal cycle racing. When I'm in a peloton, it's like, I, I try, I haven't really done it all that much, but people get aggressive in those pelotons. Like, they're riding right next to you, they cross, you know, in front of you. A lot of it is just kind of to to, you know, get you back on your heels and, uh, a little bit, um, a little stunned.

Interesting. Yeah. So your first one, uh, so how long did you time your first one?

It was, um, 11 hours 40 minutes, I think.

Oh, better than I would have thought.

Yeah, I did, I did all right. So going in What's that?

I thought you're gonna tell me like 36 hours.

No, the, the cutoffs, um, is it 17 hours or 19 hours? Um, has a cutoff, but I have like these parameters going into it. Uh, I, you know, I wasn't— I was gonna do the freestyle stroke, the, um, what is that called, the, uh Breaststroke? No, the freestyle, you know, like the, the normal stroke that people do in, in freestyle swimming. It isn't called free, it's the crawl, I think. And then, um, most people just call it freestyle. But, uh, but I wasn't gonna do the breaststroke, which is easier for— was a lot easier for me at the time. And then, uh, during the bike, like, I wasn't gonna walk on the bike um, but that really— like, Cozumel is pancake flat, so that was never gonna happen anyway. Uh, the really difficult one was I, um, decided from the outset I wasn't gonna walk on the run, like, at no point. And, uh, that turned out to be considerable— considerably difficult. Things got very real on that run.

I bet. And so, and you finished with the run, right?

Yeah, yeah. You have this moment of just bizarre psychology where you get off the bike and you're like, oh, I only have a marathon to do and then this whole thing is over.

Yeah. How'd that feel?

It honestly, like, at every stage it feels so good to like you know, do the transition because it's like, okay, now I've, you know, like it's a sense of completion at every stage. But getting off a 112-mile bike ride and running a marathon is, um, it's a whole nother world.

Sure. And you know, a lot of people don't finish those, you know, whether it's, whether it's, you know, psychological or, or just an injury somewhere along the line. I know I've had a few friends attempt it and like go out to Hawaii, and I know they didn't finish. I never asked the story, but I know it's not easy.

Yeah, I mean, I, I, I can tell you, Townsend, for me, um, I use the principles of the program, and by program I mean Alcoholics Anonymous. Uh, there— it's a spiritual program. It's It's a very simple spiritual program, and that seems to be why it works for me. Because, you know, religion, etc., hasn't worked as well for me because, you know, it's, you know, AA just boils it down. And I use the principles of AA to, to deal with like the stressors on my body, to, you know, motivate myself as I'm training. And one of the biggest things is You know, in AA, the idea is that you give up control, that you're powerless over alcohol to begin with, and then you find out that you're powerless over lots of things, and you give, you give up your will and your life to the care of your higher power. And the way that it works in an Ironman for me is, you know, I'm going along and it's like, you know, getting towards the end of the marathon, my higher power is speaking to me and it's saying, I brought you this moment, but I'm not carrying you across the finish line. So you're gonna have to do this shit on your own. But, you know, we were together this whole way. And, uh, and that's, that's the thing. He gives me a chance to, you know, show— it gives me a chance because I usually consider it kind of the universe and, you know, it gives me a chance to show, like, you know, that I, that I can do the last mile.

All right, so you wanted to do something hard, you picked Ironman. So now we fully established that, yes, an Ironman is incredibly hard. So what was the desire to do something hard? What were you trying to prove? What was the— I guess, what was the catalyst that, that brought you to that?

Well, the main thing was, um, despite the fact that I was really not a great dad when I was in the disease, um, it was probably the most— it was definitely the most important thing to me. It was the, the biggest part of my identity, being a dad, and I was very proud of being able to connect with my son, and we were very close. Um, so when I lost contact with him, I didn't really know how I could be a dad anymore. And then I found a way.

So then, is this, um, is this just in his honor? Is this to prove to him you've changed? Is this to prove to yourself that you're better? Is this just to keep you from going back to your old ways? I guess, like, what's the— what's at the heart of it, the crux?

I mean, first off, all of the above. Okay. Yeah, there, there's so many— for me, there are so many reasons to do this, you know. Probably, you know, the thing that, uh, that's driven this all along is to show my son that I'm never gonna give up on him and Honestly, I'd, I'd swim, bike, and run, I suppose, to every corner of this earth to leave absolutely no space for doubt in my son's mind that I love him.

Okay. And, uh, if I remember right, you're not allowed to have contact with him.

There is, uh, so basically I don't have any rights to have contact with him, um, and I allowed my ex to move to Paris. Um, we had this discussion before, uh, and, you know, when— after we had that talk, I did think about it a little bit more, and, um, I'm starting the process of at least making it clear that I'm available if he wants to reestablish contact. I've always respected his desire to— the last, you know, desire that he expressed to me was he didn't want to talk to me ever again. So I respect that. Um, but my, you know, his grandmother is telling me that she's reaching out, and there are certainly no, uh, that's my understanding, and there are certainly no Okay, there's nothing preventing his grandmother from re-establishing contact with him.

Yeah, because I think, well, a, you know, 12-year-old, 13, 14, 15, 16-year-old, any teenage or preteen kid, uh, doesn't always mean what they say, um, isn't always, you know, the reason they say things isn't always because it's true. Sometimes they're being motivated by outside forces, sometimes they're just kids and, you know, they really don't know what they're saying. Um, so that could change at any point in time. Uh, but yeah, I think— I mean, because I think we talked about this— it'd just be great if he knew, even if he still doesn't want to talk, if he just knew that there was— that his real dad does actually care that much. And just, you know, knowing that in his heart, I think, is a— it's just an important aspect.

Well, maybe you're doing a little bit to help you out with this podcast.

Hopefully. And, uh, and Joe, you also had, uh, because you showed me some letters, you had those on your website, right? Where you kind of like journaling and, uh, and it's I guess maybe your way of communicating with them.

Yeah, yeah, I have a woefully out-of-date website that, you know, I never take the time to update. Uh, do you mind if I, if I, uh, say the URL? Yeah, it's iamirondad.com. Okay, and letters to my son. I write my son letters. I used to write him every day. Um, I don't do that anymore, mostly because, you know, that was preventing me from doing other important things in my life. Like, you know, the— again, AA is a huge part of my life, and I really, you know, if there's anybody out there, you know, who is struggling with anything like that, then I strongly recommend you give it a shot. Nothing else worked for me. AA, uh, didn't just, you know, help me with alcoholism, it helped me with life. So, um, so, you know, part of that is it's a program of action. So, you know, I have to do things like do my step work and stuff like that. So, you know, I write my son, you know, when I have something that, that, uh, I'd like to tell him. And it's my form of journaling, and I suppose it's my form of documenting this journey. This, I'd say, pretty crazy journey. It just keeps on going somehow.

It's certainly pretty interesting. Yes, thank you. Um, sorry, it's getting dark out here.

No worries.

Um, Okay, and so, uh, California courts, right, is what you guys were going through?

Yeah.

So I just had someone reach out on the comment section there. I think they were coming out of Orange County, California. I don't know which part you are in, uh, but at that— because they, they even named the judge in the comments, uh, but he had a guy slapped with a lifetime restraining order, um, and it was something along the lines of he's never been violent Um, but you know, she just— I guess he says the mom just started lying and, and, or grossly over-exaggerating things and just claiming severe emotional abuse. Uh, and we don't know what story's true. This is the comment section of my page. So, uh, uh, but he's got slapped with a lifetime restraining order. Yeah, I don't know, you know, comment section, I don't know how old the kids are. I don't know if this is a 17-year-old we're talking about or, uh, or a 4-year-old. Um, but man, the more stories I hear coming out of California, the more the family courts there seem to be crazy and, and just, and, and ruling against fathers incredibly harshly.

I've heard, I've heard a lot of fathers say that. Um, you know, I've had my own experience, uh, Unfortunately, most of these cases are he said, she said. Like, that's, uh, just the nature of it. You know, it's rare that there are witnesses or any real evidence, uh, beyond he said, she said.

We err on the side of caution and get rid of the father.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's a common outcome. Uh, you know, certainly There are ways to get what you want in family court, and if you are not concerned about the negative impact on the opposing party, they're very effective and very— I'm just gonna put it out there for your listeners— hurtful things that you can do. You know, but if you're not too concerned with hurting the other person, then, you know, especially it seems like women often avail themselves of these laws. California has a lot of laws to protect people who are being abused in relationships. And, you know, one of the things that I've heard a lot of frustration expressed around is is that abuse in California— well, domestic violence specifically in California— is not— it does not require physical violence to establish. So it can be as much as raising your voice. I don't— I can't quote you the law right now, but the fact is that um, there's a very low, um, low bar. Low bar. Yeah.

So which is crazy is that that can be played in any circumstance, and there's not a married couple, uh, that I've ever met that has never had a fight, and it went both ways. And so if we're talking, you know, raising your voice and, and arguing and yelling is a, uh, a plausible trigger that, that the judge will accept that, but then they're only accepting it on one side. They're only accepting it when it's the father. If the mom raises her voice and yells, it's, you know, that's okay.

I mean, that's this—

that's the thing I am struggling with. And I've, you know, I haven't dug deep into, uh, you know, California law or even dug deep into some of these stories I've heard yet because, like I said, they're in the comments section.

Um, yeah.

But it's eyebrow-raising for sure.

Yeah, I mean, and California Family Court doesn't really have a way to easily, you know, kind of implementable way to end legislation if one of the parties has enough money to continue it. So a lot of times it really just comes down to whoever has the most money, because you can continually— you can always renegotiate child support. Like, you can just wear people down.

And that's, that's every state. Every state, if you know, the one who has the money can just— they can stall, delay, continue to bring things to court. It just costs the other person so much that they can't keep up. Um, yeah, I will say most of the time you see that from the reverse. You see that from the dad's side, not the mom's side, because it's a lot of times it's, you know, the fathers are the, uh, the higher earner. Um, so it's more of a rare circumstance for the mom to be the higher earner. Uh, not that it doesn't happen, it's just less likely. But I know the, uh, whole child support system is fundamentally flawed because the more— and this is every state— the more the state collects in child support, the more federal money that they get. So they are, in a very real sense, incentivized to collect a huge amount of child support, rule in the favor of moms or whoever the higher earner is, um, to have that child support money coming in because then the state will get more money. And just legislators are addicted to federal money. I mean, they just go crazy for it.

Uh, we, we touched on that before. I don't know that much about that. Um, my whole take on this, to be clear, is, um, this is a, a really good example of something that is out of my control. Like, I cannot control, uh, state laws. I can't control a family court judge. If my higher power, you know, made it clear to me— my higher power, you know, I don't necessarily believe in like an interventionist kind of higher power, like maybe like a more classic conception of God. But if my higher power through serendipity made it clear like I'm supposed to somehow, you know, you know, get involved as an activist, then, you know, I would do that. I'd listen to my higher power on it. Right now, uh, you know, the focus is kind of on, you know, my son. And, um, one thing that, uh, and that doesn't mean that it's, you know, that other fathers shouldn't get involved with this or that the system isn't abused. I mean, it is very frustrating to see laws that were meant to protect abused partners, uh, get abused themselves to hurt partners. And, uh, that you can do that for financial gain, you can do that out of resentment. Like, you know, it's, it's something that is an unfortunate thing, and humans are humans. So, you know, there's, you know, people get hurt and then, um you know, they, they sometimes want the person who they see is hurting them to hurt as well. That's a natural thing. So I look at it like, you know, what, what can I do? Like, what positive thing can I do, come, you know, coming out of this? Because the work— the, the last thing I want to do is get like locked in a court battle with my son's mother and just like throw all of our money at attorneys who honestly aren't producing a damn thing, right? Aren't like— for the money that they take, don't actually hand society anything of any value. One might argue exactly the opposite. So, you know, like, I, I do not want to be in a situation where I have to take my hard-earned money and then put into generating a bunch of resentment-filled documentation for a judge who doesn't want to read it in the first place to have to go through and make some sense of. Like, I've got better things to do. My son's mother has better things to do. And the one who gets hurt the most out of all this is my son. I'm not— you know, the, the point— there's another thing that happened during that time where, um, my son was going to be brought into the case, and that was something that was extremely unpalatable for me. I just did not want him brought into this, what was from the very get-go a very ugly matter.

The, the people— I mean, you see it a lot. Parents will weaponize their kids. They will feed them— they will feed them misinformation, and they will kind of coach them on what to say and how to think, um, because they are pliable at those younger ages. And they will bring them into the courtrooms and, in a sense, in a very real sense, weaponize them. And it's, it's, it's wrong. It's genuinely wrong.

Yeah, well, to be clear, not everything I did was right.

So, no, and you made that clear. I mean, you said, you, you know, you were, you were not sober and you were not being a great father at that point. Um, and I get that. I'm just talking about the general— the whole— the system as a whole, or that whole, uh, process of divorced parents doing that, just in my opinion, is just incredibly wrong. Um, yeah, especially when it's, it's, it's, it's false information.

Yeah, it's, it's— I can tell you it's frustrating. I can tell you that it's a resentment that is, has been very difficult for me. And, um, you know, again, part of my program is— a big part of my program is dealing with resentments. So, so, so we're— a lot.

So you were saying, you know, you, you, you know, you were having problems with drinking, obviously you were in the disease, you keep saying. Um, was that, was that for the entire, uh, length of being a father, or was that just like those later years before things, uh turned south?

Well, like a lot of alcoholics, my disease was progressive. So, um, you know, it was, it was a lot of drinking beer and wine when I started, and by the time I was done, I was staying in motels, filling them up with empty liquor bottles because I couldn't get drunk off of beer and wine anymore, and waking up in the morning early in the early hours of the morning and drinking so I didn't have to wake up and stay up sober.

Yeah. So, uh, you, you said you, you very much identified like that was your identity as a dad. It was very important to you. Um, were you more involved in those younger years?

Yes. Okay.

Yeah. Okay.

Yeah, it was, um, I mean, I always was involved Um, you know, I always showed up for the nice fun things. What I wouldn't show up for— I don't— I'm incredibly ashamed to say that I don't think I changed a single diaper. Okay, I'm proud of that.

You're not alone in that. Uh, and so, and you guys live, you know, you said partner, so I'm assuming you guys were never married?

No, we never got married. We called each other husband and wife.

Okay, this is like a common law situation.

Yeah.

Yeah, you all lived in the same house the entire time?

Yeah, we had a house up on the mountain. Uh, my ex-partner, well, she's a very talented woman, she's very smart, and she, uh, happens to be a very successful technology executive.

All right, so we've kind of talked about your progression in fatherhood, how you were involved more in the younger years, and, you know, as the disease took hold, I guess you became still involved, still there, just maybe less quality of father. Um, we've gone through the split, we've gone through the, the, uh, is it a restraining order?

Yeah, there was a temporary restraining order. Never— and, uh, what happened is it got encoded in the stipulation because she threatened me with financially. Okay, just go with the stipulation because she's gonna go for the permanent one, uh, and we're gonna have to pay to defend that, and then she's going to go after you in civil court if you don't agree with this.

Okay, uh, so we've gotten through all that. We've gotten behind your motivation for starting the Ironmans and your, uh, your successful soberness and through AA and how important that is to you. Um, what, what do you do for a career?

Uh, so I'm, um, a technology leader. Uh, so I manage some teams, uh, building software, uh, in the edtech space. So I consider that you know, a blessing. I'm— I have a lot of gratitude around that, okay, that I get to, you know, help kids learn and I get paid for that. I mean, what could be better, right?

It's always nice. Um, and so we met in the campground, uh, and so you obviously— your work can be done remote. So, uh, if I remember right, you're you're just a few months into, uh, making the camping, uh, and, and RV full-time lifestyle, uh, permanent. Is that accurate? Did I remember that right?

Yeah, this started, um, well, I got the RV in January, the trailer, and, um, and I, I've been working on it to get it kind of, you know, retrofitted to to work in and, uh, and sleep in. It's a small trailer. And, uh, since then, you know, I've, I've been traveling around now for 3 months. It's been on the road.

Where, where are you now?

I'm in, uh, Gold Country. I'm between, uh, basically I'm right next to Coloma, which is where, um, there was the first gold discovery that, uh, kicked off the California Gold Rush in 1849 was at Coloma. So it's, uh, along the American River in between, uh, Placerville and, and, uh, Auburn in California. It's a river.

Could you tell me—

hear the river from here.

Could you tell me one place that I would recognize? I knew none of those locations. Um, are you Northern California, Southern California?

Coastal California, about maybe— boy, I don't know, I'm gonna spitball 100 miles from Sacramento. It's in the foothills of the Sierras.

Okay, got it. Um, are you just kind of hanging out up there for a while, or are you, you progressing, uh, somewhere else soon?

I'm here for— I'm, uh, one week into two weeks stay. And then when I'm done here, I'm hoping— I, I need to kind of come up with firm plans, but I'm hoping to go up to Provo, Utah. And, and, you know, I, I'm trying to convince the Iron Cowboy, who is currently running 100 Ironmans in 100 days, to maybe let me do just one of those with him. But, uh, yeah, he's up there in Provo doing that, so that's kind of my next, my next move.

Cool. Uh, yeah, we're over in— we're in Utah right now. We're in southern Utah by, uh, Zion, and we're kind of hitting all the parks. Gonna do Moab and then out to Vegas and then back up, um, uh, all those California national parks. You kind of get all those before getting into Oregon, Washington. Uh, what made you— what's that?

On the Eastern Sierra, the eastern side of the Sierras. Uh, yes, go up to Mono Lake.

We're gonna hit— we're gonna skip Death Valley because its name is not, um, it's not exciting. Um, but we're gonna hit like the Sequoia National Forest and, uh, you know, the redwoods and, uh, hope all, all of Eastern California is like beautiful national parks and things. So I think we're just kind of coasting our way up there. My wife's gonna fly into a family event sometime in July, so I'll be in San Francisco or near San Francisco for that, so she can fly out of San Francisco.

Um, yeah, you should see if I'm around. The Bay Area is my home base.

Oh, okay, cool. Yeah, totally. Um, Uh, what made you want to go this, uh, this lifestyle into the RV world?

Well, you know, recently, like, every time something, you know, I, I meet a challenge, one thing I've learned is to kind of pivot and, you know, turn it into the next adventure. That's exactly what happened with Iron Dad. And then recently, you know, there was another situation that You know, like basically a person I was with, you know, basically ended the relationship very suddenly and I found myself without a home and, you know, I just decided I'd give this a shot and basically, you know, I just go around and I run and I bike and I swim. I got myself an infinity pool right next to me, like in my backyard here. Yeah, you know, it's, it's, uh, it's been really nice. And, you know, at the end of the day, um, man, I like lemonade. Okay, um, if that makes sense.

Yeah, it does. We'll see if it resonates with everybody else or not. And so you're just going to kind of go until you don't want to go anymore, I assume, right?

Yeah, that's the idea. Um, you know, at some point they're going to call us back into the office, but, uh, there's always going to be options to, uh, to work remotely for techies. So sure, I may have to change jobs. I hope not. I love my job right now, but You know, at the end of the day, you know, what I'm doing is Iron Dad is going to come first. And, you know, one of the main ideas here is, um, going to different endurance events. Uh, of course they haven't been, you know, there haven't been a lot of them in the past year, but they're starting to get scheduled again. And, and, uh, I like triathlon. I also do ultra marathons. Uh, so, you know, there are lots of ultramarathons up in the hills here, like Western States, uh, is like right near here. Um, and, uh, and then the other thing I like to do is go to festivals. So, you know, I'll, you know, I'll be taking the trailer to different festivals and, and enjoying that.

So yeah, because when we were talking last time, you mentioned Burning Man. Um, did you work for him? Yes, that's right.

Okay, yeah, I've been software engineering at Burning Man. Uh, that was my full-time job. A lot of people work for Burning Man, but, uh, when they say that, a lot of times— when I say that, rather— a lot of times people think, well, you know, I volunteered at the event or whatever. Um, but no, I, I somehow I get very lucky in my professional life. Uh, I was actually paid, you know, full-time to run software engineering at Burning Man. I went into the office every day. The office was kind of a little bit wilder than most offices. And, you know, I was on the playa for about a month. And when Burning Man— so they just recently canceled Burning Man 2021.

Oh, really?

Yeah. Yeah. So, but That said, there's something that people call the Free Burn that's happening, you know, at the same time. It's just not going to be the organization— what they— what the Burning Man community calls the org— that puts it on. Uh, and it's honestly a lot more like what Burning Man was, you know, in the early days, which is just a bunch of weirdos going out to a really flat and desolate place to have a lot of fun.

Yeah. Uh, you mentioned earlier, uh, I can't remember, was it Saudi Arabia?

Israel, I think. Israel, we're talking.

Yep, yep. Uh, so that's your only international? No, you did Mexico as well, right? Yeah, so is that kind of your plan, is, you know, to keep doing international competitions and see the world that way?

Yeah, I mean, so far it's been one a year. Um, I had planned to do— so we can, we can touch on Ultraman Israel, uh, but, you know, for this year in, in 20— so that's what I did for 2019. So 2018 was Cosmo. 2019 was, um, Ultraman Israel. 2020 was going to be, uh, what they call Patagonman. It's a, it's an Ironman distance triathlon, but they call it extreme triathlon because there's lots more hills and it's just a much more rugged terrain. What country was that? Patagonia. Uh, so that's in Chile, I think, is where the race was run. Chile and Argentina. Um, and there was also, you know, an eclipse around the same time, and they had a big festival down there. So the idea was, you know, I'd go to the race, then while I'm recovering, you know, for a week I can't do any kind of workout. So, uh, so I was just going to spend my time down there, you know, at the festival. You know, I have friends in that community and And that's the kind of, you know, my, my vacations always involve some, you know, big endurance feat followed by, you know, just relaxing and actually enjoying the, the place like a normal person.

That makes sense. Uh, where are you going to try and go this year, or are there intentions to go anywhere this year?

Well, they bumped everyone from last year for Patagonia to this year, so I'll probably be running Patagonia.

Okay, uh, so Israel, uh, tell me about that experience.

Yeah, that was really, uh, amazing. I mean, these— all of these races are epic. That one was biblical because we started, uh, by swimming across the Sea of Galilee. We actually didn't get to swim all the way across it because it was choppy, but we swam kind of on the side. The course was all the way across it. They had to stay up overnight and switch the course around because the, the authorities wouldn't give them the, the permit to have us swim all the way across. I'm glad they didn't because there were— it was like waves. It's a big lake. Um, and then, uh, we biked up to the Golan Heights. So the first day was swim across the Sea of Galilee, bike up the Golan Heights, Um, and, you know, that's a big climb, uh, into what still looks like a war zone. I mean, that was intense. Um, and then we came down, slept a night. So you, you know, you get to sleep in between the, the, you know, different legs, I suppose. The next day we biked the length of Israel. So basically down from near, uh, the Sea of Galilee down to, um, 50 miles away from Eilat, uh, which is the very southern tip of Israel on, on the Red Sea. And then we stopped and got some rest, which was a good thing because the last day was a double marathon into Eilat.

Wow. Okay, so I didn't realize that this thing was this involved, uh Yeah, so what are these distances you're, you're doing? Uh, I thought it was gonna be an 8-hour competition, then you start telling me you're spending the night places.

Oh no, this happened over the course of 3 days. You probably couldn't do this without sleeping. Uh, it certainly— they have, they have ultra marathons that involve like sleep deprivation. They don't do that so much in triathlon because it really probably wouldn't be so safe on the bike. So, um, so basically, you know, the Ultramans are done over 3 days, and it starts with a 10K swim, so that's like 6.1 miles. Uh, it's followed by, I think it was a 90-mile ride up the Golan Heights, but that was almost all climb. That was just this relentless climb. Um, so that, that was an interesting 90 miles. So that was the first day. The second day was from the Sea of Galilee past the Dead Sea, past Masada, uh, down to— and, and every night we stayed at a, uh, kibbutzim, uh, well, a kibbutz So we stayed at two kibbutzim. So, you know, those are the, uh, Jewish, uh, communal, um, uh, they're kind of like towns, kind of like little planned towns. They're really interesting. They have a lot of shelters in them.

Okay, I got—

I snuck into a bomb shelter and took these pictures. They're just absolutely fascinating, like a bunch of paintings that children did on the walls. It's a little sad in a way, but, uh, but really kind of, um, I don't know, it's like one of those places that just tells a story.

Sure. You know, interesting.

Yeah, so, so, you know, like, um, going past the Dead Sea and Masada, like That's all like— all these places are talked about in the Bible. Like, this is where, you know, a lot of the Bible happened. So, um, a lot of the stories in the Bible happen. So, you know, I tell people it's biblical because it is.

Joe, I, I think there's— I think I've had friends that do tours, like, you know, like almost touristy tours where you can like walk the paths that like Jesus did. And then, oh yeah. I, you know, kind of trace his footsteps in a sense of, you know, where he's been and what he's done.

Um, I saw some tours like that. Oh, and I was gonna mention, uh, I forgot the distances because you asked about that. Yeah, 190 miles for that second day of the bike ride.

Okay.

Uh, the last— the run was, uh, 2 marathons, so a double marathon. That's 52 2.4 miles.

So almost 3— it's almost 3 Ironmans in a row.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then the 2, uh, marathons. So that's what, 50 miles of running about? And that's all in one day?

Yeah, yeah. It's, uh, it was in November there, but, um, it was really hot. I mean, to be sure, uh, that run got really interesting. But I have, you know, certain techniques, and I trained in the heat. So, uh, I mean, how does your body, your body parts handle that? Not well.

Yeah, but so like my, my feet, like, it's— I feel like it's, it's got to be beyond willpower and everything because I feel like my feet would just fall off and my butt would be sore from the bike ride.

Well, I mean That— so I've lost most feeling in my butt, so that's just— is it even a thing? You know, when I, I will make a valiant effort to get all of my friends into endurance sports, and I've had some friends who have started biking with me, and, and they complain a lot about how their butt hurts after a— they're literally butt hurt after like, you know, 20 or 30 miles. And I just, I can't feel anything down there anymore. So, um, so, so in any case, yeah, the, the, that wasn't so much of a problem for me. What was a big problem for me was keeping my core temperature down, uh, because if it gets too high, you're gone. Like, you start throwing up, you know, your body starts shutting down, um, you know, And I had a technique for that because they had ice at the aid stations, and I had this vest, running vest, with 2 water bottles on the front and then the bladder on the back. And I put ice in all of them when I hit a— when I had an aid station. So basically, like, it was like a, like a cooling across my chest. Yeah, you know, when I was running. And it would always just be like warm water before I got to the next aid station.

Station. Yeah, that'd be, that'd be tough. Um, how far do they space those things apart on the run?

It's, uh, like 10 kilometers apart.

Okay.

Yeah, it's like 6 miles. Uh, they had roughly like a little less than probably 8, 8 stations.

And I assume you're all like—

what's that?

I assume you're all having to do that. I mean, everyone's just trying to find ways to get cool.

I don't know if other people were doing that, um, but a lot of, a lot of them were from Israel, so, okay, they were acclimated, like they were used to training in that kind of heat. But, you know, for me it was a dry— and I do okay, I just need to make sure that I'm hydrated. I happen to sweat a lot, so when you're in a dry desert, that's great because it actually is working. The evaporative cooling is actually working. When you're in a high humidity, high temperature place, it doesn't help at all. So, um, so fortunately it was a dry desert. That helped. And, and I'll tell you, I didn't run that entire run. That was a considerable amount of walking. I, I ran most of it, but, um, but there was one part you have to be careful. I didn't know the route all that well And I, you know, my ego gets the best of me a lot of times in this. Like, that's like your worst competitor sometimes. Like, your worst foe is your ego in these things. And I decided to run past an aid station because it was like 10 miles away from the end. I was like, oh, I can just run through this. And right afterwards, I dipped down into a convection oven of a valley. And it was just awful. Like, I barely got out of that valley. It was the worst heat. So yeah, you have to be real careful.

Sure, sure. I mean, that's, um, you know, we had a Navy SEAL on not too long ago, um, and it was kind of saying going through BUD/S, he was intimidated by all the people around him, uh, you know, because they're all just jacked up muscle guys, uh and he was kind of scrawnier, and he's like, he just couldn't figure out how he was gonna be better than all these people. Uh, and he was saying they ended up being the ones to drop out. Uh, and he, you know, he learned really quick it's not him versus them, it's just him versus himself. So as long as he can, um, you know, stay good in the headspace—

I mean, I should make it clear, I'm 46 years old. I didn't start this until I was 44. Sure. And I didn't exactly live a healthy lifestyle before, you know, for most of my life going into this. So, you know, what I found is that at the end of the day, it's, uh, it's more of a mental game than a physical one. I mean, believe me, like, when you're at the end of that marathon, at the end of that Ironman, you're absolutely convinced that your body's done. That it's not gonna make it, and you can quit then, or you can just, you know, keep in mind, you know, how you got there and that this is where the actual race begins.

So as you're going through all that gruelingness, are you, um, are you just coaching yourself up the whole time in your head, or do you just get lost in thoughts of other things, of like, um, you know, the computer code you need to write next week, or uh, you know, things about your family or just stuff you want to do? Are you just sitting there like, all right, one more step, you got this, you know, you've done this before? What's the, uh, what's the thought process like?

Well, it's funny that you said like you've done this before. Um, it depends on the part of the race. Uh, you know, you kind of hit the nail on the head. Like, when you're— there's a point at which it is like just putting one foot in front of the other. And every step, like, you don't want— you don't want to take another step, and then you have to do it over and over and over until you cross that finish line. And, um, in those times, I remind myself that I've felt this way before, I'm gonna feel this way again. As long as I don't give up, everything's gonna be okay. That's my mantra, and I'll just say that over and over in my head.

Now, so overcoming those physical challenges, has that, um, has that helped you overcome, uh, you know, any other mental barriers in your life when it comes to like work or family stuff or, uh, you know, non-athletic, uh, I don't know, stressors, frustrations, trials?

It's made dating a lot easier. Beyond that, yeah, I mean, you know, I meditate in motion. So I meditate when I run and I bike and I swim, which is, you know, it's something that if I— if for whatever reason I don't get my run in in the morning, it has a dramatic impact on my day. Probably also has something to do with, you know, being something of an exercise addict at this point too. So, uh, so yeah, it's, it's impacted everything. When I feel, um, frustrated, powerless, resentful, um, well, I feel like the day is just, you know, like the day has something against me, you know, and decide— and has decided that I need to be punished that day. When I start getting those kinds of thoughts, that's when I go out for a run or a ride or occasionally a swim. And, uh, I don't feel that way when I'm done. I mean, I can't really describe it. It's not like the actual problems have gone away. I just don't feel— I'm just like, yeah, everybody has problems, you know.

Well, that's for everything, isn't it? It's, it's— we don't, we don't always get to solve the problems. It's just we've learned how to deal with them.

Yeah, that's exactly it. Because— and this is where, you know, the program comes in, uh, for me as well. You know, I'm powerless over so many things. A lot of things are outside my control. I had so little control in that family court, for example. And, uh, what really counted was, you know, how, how I— what I did, what I did with what I could control. And that's, you know, what I've tried to focus on.

Yeah. I, I, you know, I very much feel the same way in, in how I act. Like, it kind of— I fight for what's right, certainly. I give my best effort, but in the end, the chips kind of land where the chips land. Um, you know, it is what it is. You know, sometimes it goes your way, sometimes it doesn't. Um, I'll certainly try and, uh, try my best and, and do what I think is right, but I can't force everything to be exactly the way, uh, I would want it to be. And honestly, it's probably better that that doesn't happen because every year I get older, I can kind of look back at my younger version of myself and say, man, you just, you just don't know what you don't know. It's just, if I'd gotten everything my way, yeah, idiot.

Like, what an idiot.

And you don't know it.

I think when I look back at myself, it's like, oh my God, if I only knew what I know now.

And you're so sure of yourself in that moment though, and you just know if, you know, you just know you're right, or if it just happened that way, it'd be perfect. And, um, and that's so—

what my 80-year-old self is gonna think of me now.

That's what, that's what I'm constantly telling myself is, man, in 5 years, this isn't gonna matter. Um. Oh, that's good, uh, because we get a lot of— I, I get a lot of, uh, dads that reach out that are, that are struggling in that space, that they're struggling in their marriage, they're struggling with a kid, they're struggling in their career. There's a lot of guys out there that struggle. They're highly stressed, dealing with anxiety, if not outright depression. And, you know, so anytime we can have a talk like this where we can put it out there that we're all feeling those things, some of us feel it more than others, but there are ways to handle it. And it's not the same way for everyone. You just kind of find what works for you, you know, but it all kind of comes down to the same thing. It's out of your control. You do the best you can. And it's, and, you know, for you, it's the higher power. For me, I just say it's where the chips, you know, that's just where the chips are falling, where they land.

A lot like what my higher power is. My higher power is the universe, and sometimes the universe has things to say to me. And, you know, ultimately, I— my mind— there's cause and effect that happens in a system that's so complex my mind couldn't even begin to understand it. And I understand that. The only thing I get little glimpses of it in the form of, like, serendipity. And I just try to listen to what the universe is telling me. But, you know, the problem for me is that it's always telling me these crazy things like go live in a trailer and travel all over the place and go call yourself— make up an alter ego. And yeah, and like ultra endurance events.

And in 10 years you're going to look back and be like, man, I'm so glad I did that.

So, I mean, I, I have to say, like, this is, you know, I, I always wanted to go, uh, to Burning Man. That was one of the things where, when I was 40 years old and, you know, obese from drinking and it just pretty much given up, you know, William had given up at that point, um, that was one of the things that I looked back and I was like You know, that one of my biggest regrets in terms of what I would have liked to have done in my life and I didn't do. And that's just because, you know, that, you know, everyone has something that, you know, that they might regret, right? With a path where they chose one direction and, and, uh, and they always wonder what was down that other, that other path. And, um, and I got, you know, by just listening to the universe, my higher power, you know, the higher power that, you know, can, can sit with an agnostic like me, um, you know, I got to go to Burning Man in a very special way. You know, I had never gone before, and I've been running software engineering there for 8 months. It was a pretty unique situation for everybody. So, you know, that dream got fulfilled when I was on the Playa. I also trained and I had, you know, my little art thing, and I had like wings I had built that lit up, and then I had like hundreds of bikes following me across the Playa like some kind of weird effed-up Burning Man Forrest Gump thing. So, uh, you know, those kinds of experiences, like, those are the things I cherish most. I started doing that when I was, um, 44. I started living my life like that, and all it all just came from whenever my higher power came up and, you know, okay, something that I really like— didn't like happened. Like, it happened, you know, recently with, uh, my relationship and my home. I just sit there and I'm like, wait, you're telling me to like buy a travel trailer and just like live on the road? Okay, I guess we're doing this now. And it's been awesome. Like, it's been unbelievable. You know what it's like to live on the road. It's unbelievable.

I enjoy it very much. At the same point, like, and, you know, for other guys that are listening, um, You know, when you get into those situations, like, you've got to do something. You've got to move forward some way. I mean, you can't just sit there and, you know, woe is me. It's not going to accomplish anything. So you have to, you know, whether it's some sort of inspiration like you received, or, uh, you have to trudge forward. You have to go through the muck, I guess, if you have to go through the muck.

It's funny that you use that word because, uh, when we're describing Like, life and sobriety in the program, we say trudging the road of happy destiny. Trudging the road. That everybody says, oh, that means walking with determination. And I always say, no, it doesn't. It really doesn't. Um, yeah, it's, it's funny. Uh, and I would say, you know, one thing I would say to somebody who is listening to this and thinking, you know, like, I feel trapped where I am, and I feel like I don't have, uh, you know, that this isn't who I am, or, you know, that, uh, I feel like I could be better. In particular, like, I feel like I could be a better dad, and I don't know how to do it. Um, what I would say is, you know, a lot of our lives and a lot of the reasons why we don't self-actualize is fear and The antidote to fear that I've found is faith. And before, you know, like, you have a big reaction to faith, like, oh my God, you're talking— you're softballing religion to me now. No, we are— it doesn't matter if you're the staunchest atheist, you practice faith every day. You walk into buildings that, you know, you didn't consult the architect before going in that thing. You didn't check to make sure that the builder's license was current. You have no idea walking to a new building if it's going to fall down on you or not. The only thing that you know is everyone who walked in there before you, it didn't fall down on them, so it's probably not going to fall down on you. Now, could you imagine if every building you looked at, you were terrified of going in because you couldn't have faith that if it didn't fall down on thousands, if not millions of other people in front of you, that it wouldn't fall down on you. You'd be terrified. You wouldn't enter any buildings. And that's just not how we live our lives. We live our lives in faith. What I choose to do is practice a faith that works for me, because whenever— it's not like I don't have fears. The difference for me that helped me, you know, kind of do some of the things I've done is I don't fear fear. When I do experience fear, I know how to handle it, and it doesn't dictate what I do with my life.

Would you say faith is action?

I would say that— what's the saying? Faith without action is dead. Like, if you want— so here's, here's a way to put it, okay? If you find yourself coasting, this is— the, the program has some really choice sayings, um, and, and one of my favorites is, if you find yourself coasting for long enough, it's because you're going downhill.

That's a good one.

So the, you know, you, you hit on something like You know, it's not enough to just say, oh, I believe in this. You've got to turn that into action. And, you know, I don't want to make this all about AA, but AA is a program of action. Like, it is. Yeah. I mean, I never would have had this life without it. Sobriety is my superpower. And, um, and, you know, maybe, maybe others who are listening to this will find that to be the case, or maybe they'll just You know, the, the stuff that I've learned in that program is kind of universal in terms of handling things like, you know, crippling things like resentment and fear, you know, those things that, you know, and leave us, you know, doing things that we're not proud of or, you know, living lives that don't feel like us, you know.

So I've always kind of sat there and said faith is an action verb because you have to take— you have to do the steps. You can't just sit there and have faith. You have to have the faith to do the things.

Um, yeah, in AA you literally do the steps.

And then with fear, the kind of same way. I like pushing forward. Like, I, I, it, it satisfies me at a cellular level, I think, uh, because I know when I have fear, anxiety, things like pushing forward through an obstacle, um, helps calm those fears. It almost gives me something to focus on instead of sitting there, you know, wallowing.

I have an idea to suggest though around that.

Okay.

When I— because this is something I— another mantra that I follow, uh, sometimes when you hit an obstacle, it's a lot better instead of trying to break through it to flow around it.

I 100% agree.

Is flowing around obstacles. I, I don't Go with the flow.

I, I do agree. I don't, I don't necessarily believe in like, uh, stubbornness and, um, uh, yeah, whatever else, whatever other good choice word to fit that, you know, uh, you know, enforce my will upon others or situations. Um, yeah, but you saw, you just still have to move forward, and maybe it isn't the path you thought or the path you wanted, but you still have to keep going forward. But yeah, that's a, that's a good, uh, that's a good little add-in going around. Just okay, you know, sometimes a lot easier and better than going through.

Yeah, yeah, that's why I had to come knock on your trailer door, because I looked at your trailer and I was like, oh look, here's another guy who's all in.

Yeah, that's for sure.

I respect that. I can understand that.

That was Uh, yeah, we hit this.

A lot of courage to do what you do, to wrap a trailer with something that says 100% Dad. Yeah, like that. And that's not the only thing. I'm just saying, like, I was— I looked at that, I was like, oh my God, I already love this guy.

I appreciate that. Certainly, certainly pure faith, uh, you know, that, hey, this is the right thing to do, and, um, you know, that that's what I'm meant to do, and, and that it'll work. Um, and that, you know, that comes down to faith in action. But, um, you know, at the same point, it's the source and the intent is so good, uh, and authentic, uh, and that's where, you know, I, I do think a lot of men and dads struggle is they're posturing, they're faking it, they're Um, they're just not being authentic, uh, or there may be just being part of being a great dad is being vulnerable, right? Humble. Um, yeah, what's, you know, me saying humble? I've got my face plastered, you know, 13 feet in the air on my RV, but Yeah, a lot of comfort in knowing that, you know, this is, this is for good. Um, there's a lot of integrity within this brand. Um, it's not fake. We're not lying. We're not angling for something. Um, there's nothing sinister going on. It's just genuine, authentic, uh, what we believe to be great advice for dads and Encouragement for Dads, and we truly believe the dad space needs to be built back up and is a very, very important space for not just dads, not just the family, but the communities as a whole. And you can make some very real arguments about the status of the country and how fatherhood can really impact that. And that goes into things as basic as drug use rates and prison rates and you know, the healthcare system. And there's a lot of data out there that says when fathers are involved in their families and they are present, that almost everything that's bad in our country that we measure will go down, and the things that we measure that are good will go up. So, and we put out some posts, we put out some posts on that. And I almost genuinely believe improving the father space will at a very real and tangible level improve the world.

Yeah, I have to say, like, it's surprising that— because I know the people who have had fathers in their lives, I know how much they value them. And it's surprising that anybody would have to make a case that fathers are important. But, you know, I think that it's— it stands to reason the more families that you have where the fathers aren't present for some reason, the less appreciation there are— there is for, you know, just across society for what a father can bring to the table. Obviously we can't bring everything that mother can. Like, let's— I think, yeah, there's something that we obviously cannot do that, that, uh, that mothers are going to be doing for their children, but Mothers can't do—

mothers are insanely, insanely important as well. Yeah, and we're not, we're not trying to say they're unneeded, um, we're just saying we spent decades and decades abusing the fathers, um, and taking and minimizing their role, mocking their role, and removing them at a very real sense, uh, from the family and replacing them with checks or government assistance. And, uh, you know, and we can see what that's done in the last few decades. I mean, there's real measurable, um, impacts there.

If you want to be the best version of yourself, you can do worse than starting with being the best version of yourself as a father.

I say that one more time.

If you want to be the best version of yourself then try being the best father you can be first and see where that takes you. Because I've found the best version of myself— I find that when I'm being the best father that I can be. That is, Iron Dad as a father is the best version of William there ever was.

Uh, I speak to a lot of dads, a lot of the best dads, um, I've talked, or, you know, Yeah, a lot of the best dads I've talked to, they, they have a common theme of there was real intent there. They wanted to be good fathers. They wanted to be present. They wanted to have an impact on their kids' lives. They wanted to be involved. And it almost— there might be a very real sound logic to the fact that if you have the intent to be a good father, because of that intent, you're going to be always looking for ways to improve you're going to be kind of internally researching the subject, um, and, uh, and that's how it'll play out. It'll actually work for you. Yeah, because, because that's your goal, and you will at some level be, uh, constantly improving because of that goal.

Well, if it was hard to track on the last thing that I said about being the best version of yourself, my idea of like how to be a good father is to be the person that I'd want my son to want to be. I want my son to be the person that he wants to be, but I'd like to be the person that I would love for my son to want to be.

Sure, set a good example. I think, you know, you're obviously in a very unique situation, um, but, you know, you put it out there, you've made it public, and, and you, you made a huge change and a, a massive commitment, a very challenging commitment And I don't think anybody could go out there and sit there and say you don't care. Um, sure, you've screwed up, you've made mistakes, but, um, you've come up with a very, uh, interesting, very unique way to make up for it. Um, and I think at the very worst, uh, even if your son were to never talk to you, when he finds this, when he finds your websites and reads those letters— because he will, because who could not— and when he sees you know, these kind of podcasts and, and how much you've done all in his honor, that's going to, um, maybe cure a lot of things inside of him, which may be, you know, self-doubt, or, you know, my dad didn't care, didn't love me. And those things can really resonate with people on the inside. Um, you know, the daddy issues are a real thing. And, um, you know, if he doesn't know already, uh, finding that stuff in the future will be a that'll be worth a million times more than 30 years of therapy. So yeah, I, I think it's a great thing. I think, uh, you know, it's remarkable, it's impressive. Um, obviously the ideal scenario would not be have to do that at all, just to be a complete family in my mind. But, um, you know, given the circumstances for what they are, it's, it's, it's It's pretty impressive.

Yeah, thanks. Yeah, and I could just add on to that and say that for me, you know, whether I talk to my son or not is out of my control. I don't know if I'll ever talk to him again, but I don't need to have to, you know, I don't necessarily need to talk to him to be okay. It's okay to do everything I can to show him that I love him and to be the best father that I can be and leave the rest to my higher power. And, uh, and I'll tell you, Townsend Russell, like, this has been an adventure, you know. Obviously, like, I, I want to talk to my son more than anything in the world, but how could I say, like, okay, I want to unwind Iron Dad, and I want to stop, like, living out dreams that honestly I'm only finding now that I had. I'm— this is who I felt like I wasn't being. Like, this, this is the person that William always should have been. And I only— there was only one path to get here. Unfortunately, part of that path was my son, was losing contact with my son, at least for a while.

Sure.

So I'm okay with it, you know. I'll just keep doing what I'm doing and, uh, listening to that higher power, the crazy shit it's telling me, and do some more, like, just keep doing what it tells me to do and see, you know, see what happens.

Well, congratulations on everything you've accomplished so far. Um, it seems like you're in for a wild ride. Uh, I'm looking forward to catching up with you in the future and seeing, and seeing what new stories you have.

Yeah, definitely. We should, we should try to sync up in an RV park again.

Yeah, absolutely. We keep our schedule posted, so, um, Uh, you ever just go to our website, you can kind of see we, we use— we're usually a couple months ahead of it, of where we intend to be. And we don't always get exactly in that way because there's cancellations or adjustments along the way, but, um, you can genuinely see the area we're going to be in.

Awesome. Yeah, I'll keep up with it. Or maybe as a matter of serendipity, we'll just run into each other. It's not like your trailer's subtle.

That's happening. We were just out in Zion. It had nothing to do with the trailer because we were staying in different parks, but, um, Someone just recognized us like while we were hiking, like, oh, you're the Hunter Dad guy.

Oh my God.

And it was from— they saw us, uh, last year when we were in Glacier National Park, um, and they, they never came up and approached or said hi or anything. They just— they've been following along. And so we were hiking and they were like, hey, aren't you— then they saw my hat, they're like, you are, you're Hunter Dad. And I, um, I was in the middle of a sandwich while they were— when they came up. Uh, I wish I had gotten their, their screen name so we could have stayed in touch, but we'll probably cross again.

Exactly, exactly. And I know that you and I'll cross again, cross paths again too.

Yeah, so we, we do, we do recross with a lot of, uh, full-time RVers. Like, we, we stumble upon each other quite often.

Yeah, yeah, I'm looking forward to it.

All right, well, have a good night.

Yeah, you too.

Thanks for coming on.

Thanks. Thanks for having me.