S2:E14 IWD with Dr. Shirag Shemmessian

Uh, we've been on the road. We've been boondocking for about a week now, which means no electricity, no power, no water, uh, no sewer. Uh, we've just been living in the woods, uh, moving around all around Wyoming, kind of with some friends, kind of roughing it. Uh, so I haven't been connected to the world for a while.

Okay.

Which means I, I did not prep for this at all. So that's okay. I know I was sent some of your information, some of your bio, and I have not read it at all. So, okay, so, so start me out. Tell me, uh, tell me the basics. Go. So go ahead and introduce— podcast is 100% Dad Interviews with Dads. So we're interviewing dads and you're going to have a unique take on it. And, uh, so let's just go ahead and here introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about you and what you've got going on.

Yeah, so I'm, uh, Dr. Shamassian. You know, I live in San Diego with my wife and my 3-year-old son. He turned 3 about 2 months ago. We're in the middle of potty training, uh, and I'm a Southern Californian, born and raised. I grew up in Los Angeles. And for work, what keeps me busy is I help people get into medical school. So, you know, I help people, uh, you know, participate in the right extracurricular activities, do well on their MCAT exam, which is the standardized test for med school, you know, prep them for the application process. And between family and work and all the things to do in San Diego, you know, that's Pretty much sums up my life.

Okay, uh, so we were in San Diego for a little bit back in February, I think. It's a fun little town.

It is.

It's not little. It's not little at all.

But it's funny you say that because people here, um, you know, behave like it's tiny. You know, our airport's not very big. There's a very small town feel, even though I believe it's like the 9th biggest city in the United States. But the, you know, the culture and the vibe and the mentality is of a much smaller town.

Yeah, it's definitely a nice, uh, not Southern, but this— it's, it's true, it's, it's what SoCal is. I mean, it is definitely laid back. Your airport is wild. Yeah, the planes just come over like the top of houses and graze the roof of houses as it comes in and lands.

It is absolutely the case. Yeah, you basically fly next to the skyline. Um, and then land.

So, so do you run— so is it like, uh, so I've seen this before in St. Augustine where we have University of St. Augustine, it's a physical therapist, it's kind of like a specific school, um, for that doctorate route, I guess. Now, and they have, uh, there's a few private businesses where they have like study halls and you can do study groups and things like that, and you go there and you, I don't know, you meet up and you train for these exams. Is that what you're doing?

So this is a bit different. So with medical school, usually you're planning out years in advance, you know, taking certain courses at the university level, maybe even after your undergrad is done, and you participate in various extracurricular activities like physician shadowing or community service or research and all this kind of stuff. And a lot of people get involved in the wrong activities, quite frankly. When I say wrong, I don't mean they're bad, but they, you know, they're they're big time commitments and they don't really move the needle for you. And, and so our part of our job is to make sure that students are, you know, spending their time in the highest return activities that they also are very interested in. And doing that alongside, you know, coaching them on whom to build rec letter relationships with and prepping for the MCAT exam, which is sort of like the SAT or ACT for college, but this time for medical school.. And so there are a million different pieces. And then when it gets to the application part, you know, helping people tell their story across their application essays, making sure that they're, you know, getting proper interview coaching so they go in there and they can ace it. Because a lot of times our students are asked to do stuff that they were never asked to do in school, right? Write these narrative essays about, you know, about themselves and, you know, interview for these high-stakes admissions processes. And they're sort of thrusted into these things without really the proper background. And our goal is to help them do that.

So at what stage of the education process is preparing for, for med school? Is this, is it post, what, bachelor degree?

So no, it's actually during, I mean, ideally it's during. So we have students who begin working with us as early as their freshman year of undergrad. And, you know, and then all the way through undergrad, there are some people who are considered, you know, non-traditional students. So let's say there's a 28-year-old accountant who was like, you know what, I want to actually go into medicine. That's been my lifelong dream. I never did it. And so those folks will come to us too and say, well, help me get there. And, and everything in between. So really at any stage post-high school, you know, when people approach us for med school admission support, we do that.

So really it could be up to what, 4 years? A client could last you 4 years?

They could, yeah, they, they totally could. And then sometimes, you know, they finish medical school or they're on the cusp of that, and then they come to us to, for assistance with their residency admissions process. So we have We have repeat, you know, students too. And it's a treat to sort of see. It flies by every time. It's crazy. It's like, you helped me 3 years ago. I want to, you know, I want to do this again. And I'm like, oh my gosh, has it really been that long? I'm like, yeah, I guess I did have a kid. I, you know, all these things that happened between then.

So is this your business or is this like part of— okay, so how did you get started in that?

You know, kind of organically and out of necessity. So I went to a small high school in Los Angeles where we didn't have much in the way of college admission support.. And I was self-taught in that process because I wanted to go to certain good schools. And when I was in college, was studying, you know, on how to get into medical school, and along the way assisting other people. And over time, you know how it goes, you know, one person tells another, you know, I got into this school, this person helped me, reach out to them. And it was all word of mouth, and it just grew from there. And over time, I started, you know, I wanted to share more resources. I was realizing that, you know, a lot of the advice I was giving was, you know, applying to a lot of students. And so I started looking for resources online, didn't quite find what I wanted to send people. So I started writing myself and, you know, through that sort of blogging effort, random people started reaching out to me, Townsend. So people would reach out and say, hey, I saw, you know, I wanna work with you. I'm like, I don't, I don't know who you are. I remember realizing the first time I'm like, okay, now random people are reaching out to me and I'm like, how did you find me? And they're like, oh, online. I'm like, oh my gosh. So this is how. Things get on Google. Um, and so I started, you know, learning more about that, and just one thing led to another. So it was a, it was a fortuitous, unplanned snowball, um, and, and here we are today.

So, so for the dads that are, you know, working their job and kind of have some sort of side job or little hobby that they'd like to see built up, um, at what stage were you that you decided you needed to put more effort, more time, more money into building this new business that maybe isn't so fruitful, uh, versus keeping it as a hobby and sticking with your, uh, your main source of income?

Yeah, I have a lot of thoughts on this. Um, so I, you know, in full disclosure, I, I think I made this my full-time work a little bit too late. Like, I could have done it way earlier. Um, and I think that was part of it, was my own anxiety about like you know, letting go of the sure thing and all this kind of, you know, with a salary and benefits and all this kind of stuff. And I totally understand the challenges of doing that as a father, you know, you want to take care of your family. At the same time, you know, all of the signs were, hey, you could totally do this full-time and you're just, you know, sticking with, you know, full-time job out of anxiety and whatnot. And so, you know, I think that it's wise for people to, if there's something that they're interested in doing, to do it on the side while working until they've built it up to a certain level where you know, it can replace their salary at least to an extent. For me, you know, I actually years ago when I started, when I was saying, you know, I started blogging heavily and developing materials, it was pretty funny. We barely had like anybody on our newsletter and we probably had, you know, I probably had only a handful of students I was supporting at a time, but I remember distinctly There were like, you know, Tuesdays, Wednesdays, late at night, uh, writing these large resources, um, for like the 12 people on my newsletter, right? And my wife would say, you know, just come watch this movie, you know, um, whatever, you don't need to publish this thing, um, today or tomorrow. And I said, no, no, no, there are people that I, you know, that I told them I'm gonna reach out every Friday with something. And I'm gonna do that. I can't let them down. It's really funny. Now, our newsletter has way, way thousands of people reading it every single week. And back then when there were 12, I still treated it like it had to be done, even though it didn't have to be done beyond the commitment I had made in my head to these readers. And so I treated it that way. And I, you know, it's worked out very well. And, you know, people always tell me like, hey, I really look forward to reading your resources, like keep them coming, or I learned so much from this. So my advice to people is, don't start taking it seriously when you see traction.

Right?

I think that people who are really successful with their ventures take it very seriously, even when they don't have you know, some big following or massive traction or anything like that. Because if you, if you wait until that happens, A, it's going to be way less likely to happen. But B, you're not going to necessarily have the tools and the skills to, you know, to deliver what you need to deliver. You know, if you waited until you have, I don't know, 5,000 people on your newsletter, you might not have the writing skills necessary to, you know, to take full advantage of those. Eyeballs essentially, and to give those people what they need, you know, from a value standpoint. So yeah, my advice is even if you're just starting out, you know, obviously you should try what the different things that you like, but once you decide on the thing you like, you really have to commit to it. Don't do it half-baked because then you're going to, it's going to be a self-fulfilling thing where if it doesn't work out, you're going to say, well, that wasn't, you know, that wasn't a great idea anyway or whatever. So it didn't work out, I'm going to move on to the next idea. I don't think you gave it your full effort. So, so yeah, treat it ultra seriously from day one. And when you start to see the snowball and, you know, all of the signs say, hey, look, this is actually yielding the fruit, you know, that you're hoping for, it's going to be time to, you know, consider maybe doing it full time or half time or whatever the case might be for you and your family. Every business is different. Some people's goals is, you know, to make an extra $1,000 a month. You know, an extra $10K or whatever. Other people, it's to replace their job. And for me, I didn't have that specific goal. I wasn't like, oh, I'm building this to one day do it full-time. Not at all. But it was more so like, let me take this very seriously, see what happens, and, uh, and we'll take it from there.

Good tips. How long have you had this business?

Well, the business as it exists today, like with its name and all that stuff, um, since 2013. But I've been doing this work for nearly 20 years.

So you did this well before you had a kid?

Oh yeah. Okay, for sure.

So you, uh, did you say your son— was it a son?

Son.

3 years old?

3.

Okay, so you're an older dad if you've been doing it for 20 years.

I guess so.

So, uh, 40-ish?

No, not, not quite 40-ish, but, uh, in my 30s. Um, so how do you—

how have you been doing it for 20 years?

Well, nearly 20 years. I mean, so ever since I, you know, ever since I wrapped up my, you know, my high school and was going deep, you know, starting out college, got it, really helping people. And obviously, you know, the number of people I've supported over time has grown quite a bit. But as far as, you know, seeing a lot of trends and helping a bunch of students, you know, thousands over the years, okay, seen a lot change.

So I just put 20 on top of what somebody would get out of med school at, which is what? 26, 28 or something. I figured, well, 20 plus 28 is like 48. So, all right, so that's, that's where I went with that. I wasn't, you know, looking at your hairstyle and saying, well, this guy's ancient.

I know, it's the, it's the gray streaks, you know, that's what's, uh, getting you.

Metal, I was just talking with a friend about this. So I have a friend, um, that I'm hanging out with here at, uh, Rapid City, and he's in the Air Force.

Yeah.

And, uh, he's a PA.

Okay.

And so we're, we're just kind of talking about this the other day. Like, I don't— I'm big against debt. And so a lot of— some of the biggest debt in America is, uh, student loans, as you probably deal with all the time, especially in medical field, because it's not cheap to go through medical school. Um, so you're talking hundreds of thousand dollars of racked up before you've really made your first dollar.

Yeah.

And it puts you in a hard hole. Um, of course there's certainly opportunities to make a lot of money, but, uh, you know, not every doctor goes on to make mega bucks. Some of, you know, pediatricians really don't make the big bucks that people think about as far as doctors. Sure. Um, we're small town docs, things like— I'm sure there's other examples. Um, do you counsel people on, I guess, how to get loans or other strategies? Cause what I was talking about with my friend was the military. If, if, if we couldn't afford to pay for medical school for my kids and it was a student loan issue, I would almost encourage them to consider the military because that's a place where you're going to get paid. They, you know, they will pay you, they will give you the education. Uh, and I think you have to, I think it's a stepped up commitment. I don't know if you know more about that than I do. Uh, but they're gonna pay you. To go to school, essentially, which is a whole different game.

Sure, sure it is. Um, but like, so we, we do, you know, assist students with answering questions about loans and, you know, securing scholarships and all this kind of stuff. I mean, unless— I mean, there are some students we work with who their families are very well-to-do, and, you know, their parents just basically write a check, um, you know, for them to go to school. But the majority of our students are going to take out some amount of loan, whether for the full amount, like, you know, my brother did when he went to medical school, but also, you know, when, you know, when they're going to, or taking out a partial loan, whatever, maybe half of it, three-quarters, whatever the case might be. And so that's sort of an expected part of this process. And you're right, like, you know, the promise, I think, to a lot of people is, you know, you're going to go to school, you're going to do residency, during those residency years, you're going to make like $50,000 to $60,000. And then after, you know, that's when you're going to cash in or whatever. But, but then there's a lot of, you know, there isn't a lot of financial education for physicians. Right. So a lot of people will have these loans and then all of a sudden they're getting a $200,000, $300,000 salary and they're spending more than they—

they buy a couple of Mercedes, they buy a mansion.

Exactly. Exactly. And now they're, you know, their, their loan paydown rate has slowed down. And sometimes they end up, you know, they wonder like, where's all this money going? I'm making but they don't understand taxes. I get questions sometimes from, you know, I've gotten questions from advisors on our team about what's gross pay and net pay, you know, questions like this, like, I thought I was gonna, you know, all this kind of stuff. So there's a lot of financial education, and I think that it starts early or should start early. And unfortunately, our, you know, schooling system isn't educating people about this kind of stuff. And so as far as, you know, opportunities like going to you know, if you go to ROTC in college, you know, they can pay for your college. If you join, you know, uh, the uniformed, you know, services, and, you know, they'll pay for your medical school as well and all this kind of stuff there. You're right though, there's a commitment even after residency. So when you, when you actually do the math, Townsend Russell, like the, you know, your earning potential, uh, you know, in the forces is probably going to be lower than what it would be if you weren't in the forces. So actually, um, So that kind of also slows down, you know, the time.

But then you don't have to necessarily stay in the forces forever. I think there's an extended commitment you have to make, correct? But you can go into civilian life afterwards.

Yes, but I'm saying that extended commitment, when you pit that and the lower salary associated with that against people who took out the loans and got the pay, it doesn't shake out that different. It's not as great of a deal financially as you would think in the long term. Now, if someone wants to join the services, of course they should, and we assist students every year with joining, you know, those programs. I'm just saying that I don't think that finances should be the primary driver of someone joining or not joining, um, you know, the services, just because of the way the math shakes out.

I agree with that. So yeah, we don't want, you know, half-committed people serving. Yeah, not even that.

I'm not even talking about commitment, but I'm saying like if did it because like that was the driver. I'm just saying from a— even from a math standpoint, it's not as great of a deal. So I, I encourage students to do what they want to do career-wise because the math like sort of shakes out the same.

Well, it— so I guess it depends what the income is, right? Um, yeah, because some doctors make more than others and, you know, it might be geography, it might— but then I think there's a factor of not everyone who starts college finishes college. Not everyone who starts medical school finishes school. Sometimes people rack up a ton of debt and they don't have a degree to show for it.

That also happens. I mean, the, the thing is, you know, a lot of, at a lot of high, you know, high-achieving, you know, colleges and stuff like that, the graduation rates tend to be higher just because of, you know, who was going into those schools in the first place, right? So, um, and then in medical school, it's also the case where graduation rates are actually really high. With medical school, it's Essentially, if you want to graduate, you will, right? Like, there are so many support systems in place, uh, it's, it's hard to fail out of medical school. Um, you know, it's a— it's, it's not a very common thing. Now, I do know some people who finish medical school and they're like, I don't want to practice medicine. And then there's, you know, they're gonna have to, I don't know, do consulting work or something entrepreneurial. That happens all the time too. So yeah, I mean, I think it's an important part of the discussion, and that's why, you know, our goal isn't just to like me, you know, help people get in, but it's also to mentor them, you know, through the process and answer questions, any questions they have along the way. And consider these kinds of things because, you know, when you're 21, 22, 23 years old making these decisions for your 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, you don't— I know that I didn't have the full picture when I was 22. Heck, I— who does, right? It always changes. And but the thing is, you know, you got to be a little bit of like voice from the future. You know, when you've seen a lot of students having gone through it and being a mentor to them.

So, so do you know what the graduation rates are for med school across the board? Not necessarily, you know, the Ivy Leagues and the prestigious ones, but—

I don't have the specific number. I would, I would wager they're well into the 90s.

Oh yeah, that's really high.

Yeah.

Interesting. Things I did not know. Yeah. So, and then, so I was just learning this week as well. So family practice doctors, a lot of the times, Um, so I don't know if you've ever, uh, heard back from students or anything like that. It's not exactly what they thought it would be for, for family practice specifically. Um, and so what I was hearing was it's a lot of complainers, and that kind of drives the spirit out of a few doctors of, man, all day every day it's just someone complaining. It's over things that maybe aren't really valid. It's just trying to get insurance to pay for things or trying to get out of work or you know, somehow making an excuse for something. It's just a lot of whining about things that aren't really, uh, uh, I guess it feels like you're not actually helping people because you spend so much time with people that don't actually need the help.

Yeah, I mean, so there are, you know, I, I hear this, um, you know, I hear this at times, you know, when people get— go to school, you know, 4 years, and again, we're always looking ahead when we're doing these long You know, when we're going through these long educational processes, we're always looking ahead, right? Like, ooh, it's okay. You know, med school, ah, it's maybe a bit of a slog and I'm just ready to go to residency where I'm actually gonna be doing the thing I wanted to do from the get-go. And then you get to residency and you're working 60-hour weeks, maybe 80-hour weeks and getting 50, 60K and you're tired. And it's, you know, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 years. And that can be, you know, it could sort of drain you. And then you become an atten— and it's like, no, it's okay, but once I make an attending, you know, position, and once I get to call the shots and I'm making $300K, like, that's when I'm gonna— but then, you know, there are a lot of physicians that I see, you know, who say, oh, they get into their job, literally into year 1, year 2, they basically look to their left, look to their right, and say, this is kind of it. Like, I come in, I do my shift, you know, I come into the office, but I'm, you know, I'm seeing patients. And yes, every patient is different, but I'm doing similar procedures, seeing similar things. Is this what I'm going to do for 10, 20, 30 years? And so that, you know, people come to terms with that. Essentially, they've been looking forward to something, but once they get to that attending position unless they're, I don't know, going to rise up to be chief of the hospital or, you know, do something else, entrepreneur, or whatever the case might be. A lot of folks, I think they're, you know, it's this— it seems a little bit repetitive, but you're also getting a nice paycheck. We all know it's harder to leave a job with a bigger paycheck than a job with a lower paycheck. And so these are kinds of things that, you know, people— you have to really love the work. And you're right, it's not glamorous, right? It's not, you know, I think it's like people see people in scrubs and their stethoscope and, hi, I'm Dr. So-and-so, and, you know, I'm, you know, thank you so much, doctor, you did X, Y, and Z. But a lot of times it's not that, you know.

Well, and the Grey's Anatomy TV show just makes it seem so exciting every day.

It's not all janitorial closets is what you're saying, Townsend. But, uh, no, I, I, I see what you're saying. But yeah, I, I think people have to contend with that, you know. People have to contend with this idea of it's not just the fun parts. The same way, you know, if you become an investment banker, it's just woohoo, you know, $10 million paid, all this kind of stuff. There's a lot of the time it's, you know, there are difficult moments and you have wins along the way, of course.

Sure.

But it is a job like other jobs, and you have—

there's a drudgery to it.

Yeah, you— but you have to be into that. You have to be into serving patients long-term. You have to realize people only come to you when they're upset, right? Like, like a divorce lawyer doesn't, you know, doesn't just see happy people every day. They're seeing pissed off people.

People.

And you know, when people are coming to you as a physician, they're not coming to you like, hey, what brings you in today? Nothing, doc, just want to tell you that I'm doing great. Like, I don't know that anybody says that, you know.

Uh, I'm gonna do that, I'm gonna do that one day.

You should, you should make a good story. He's gonna say some dude came in and told me this thing, right? Um, but, but you have to, you have to consider these things.

So we don't know the percentage, but I'm not— man, I really would not have expected that.

So I did a quick Google search, and between the mid-'90s and about the mid-2010s, the 4-year graduation rate was in the low to mid-80%. But if you did 6 years after matriculation, so within 6 years of starting, it was actually 95.9%. And this—

so you don't necessarily fail out of med school, you just have to repeat.

Yeah. So people who do have academic struggles, there are many systems in place to get back in it. You retake tests and stuff like that. And so, yeah, again, most people who start med school and want to stay in it, it's a fairly high graduation rate.

Gosh, man, that's something I guess I need to start asking the doctors that I go see. Hey, how many years did it take you to get through? I know they'll shovel all you guys through.

Yeah, yeah. Uh-oh. Were you a 4-year person? A 6-year person? Yeah.

I'm going to start asking that.

You'll be a popular patient.

Yeah. Um, I can't remember the last time I went to go see a doctor. It's probably not a good thing.

Yeah.

So, uh, are you married?

I am.

How long you been married?

Married 5, 6 years in, uh, in a couple months.

Okay. You got a kid that's 3, living in San Diego. Um, what was, uh, you're an— are you an MD?

I'm not. So I did my PhD in psychology. Um, I was pre-med all through college, did very well. I just I was doing a lot of mental health research and was always drawn to, to that world. I always told people, hey, if I'm gonna go to medical school, I'm gonna become a psychiatrist. So I just, I think, took a detour, um, and did similar work.

And so, so how long, uh, so you were married for about 3 years, and you were in your, what, uh, early 30s when you had your first kid? So how was that shift? So walk me through that, if you can remember it. From going from, uh, I guess single life and then doing the doctor thing and, uh, getting to live life on your terms to then being married and having a child. How did that experience, uh, realistically, uh, go for you?

Yeah, I mean, there are so many angles to think about. There's my life, you know, my general life and personal life, romantic life, whatever. There's also the, you know, how it impacted my work life, right? And the, and the changes I made to that. I mean, so obviously being single to being in a relationship, you, and certainly being married, you, you don't, you just don't like make decisions shooting from the hip anymore. You don't just say, all right, I'm doing this thing tonight. Uh, you don't just like get in your car and leave. Um, and what maybe some people do, I don't, but you know, you shouldn't.

Let's go and put that out there, right?

Right. Um, And so obviously being in a relationship was like, I know that I would, you know, I go to bed earlier with each progressive step, you know, being married, having a kid, etc. Um, that's definitely changed. I mean, with the kid, it's, uh, it's just, I mean, there are just so many more constraints. And I don't mean that in necessarily a negative way, but, you know, there are sleep times and nap times. There's, you always, I think you think a lot more about everything you're gonna do. Like, uh, you know, I want to run to the store and grab bread. And when they're really, you know, when your kid's with you, you don't just like grab your key and run out of the house. You got to get your kid ready, you got to put them in the car, you gotta, you know, in the car seat. And then you, you have these— how many times have we had these questions to ourselves, Townsend? Like, do I really want bread? Like, uh, you know, and you might not do certain things. So I feel like you do things more like you, you really want the things you do, like more and more, like when you have, you know, wife and kid and all this kind of stuff. And so work-wise, it was actually really interesting. My— we were at a, you know, the business fortunately has grown every single year. And I remember, you know, I was seeing this trend, and when my wife got pregnant, or, and told me that she was pregnant, I had a moment where I was like, oh my gosh, like the business can't operate the way it currently does with a baby. And that was sort of a triggering event for me where I was like, you know, all these things that I sort of do out of, you know, institutional knowledge and memory and, and also being like, uh, you know, day-to-day, uh, you know, management of our team and all this kind of stuff, how do I, you know, remove or, or reduce the reliance on me I think that was really critical for our business. So I got to writing, you know, manuals and procedures and developing systems and all this kind of stuff. Because, you know, this is— it's a situation where sometimes when you develop a system in a business, it oftentimes works when you have, you know, 1 person, 2 people, 5 people, whatever. But then when you do times 10, it's a completely different thing. You know, if you have 5 students versus 50 students, it's a completely different thing. And then, you know, if you go from 50 to 500, 500 to, you know, 5,000, whatever the case might be. And so you always have to be honest with yourself, like, okay, the system I put in place, would it work if it was times 10? The answer might be yes, and that's great. And the answer might be no, and you might say, okay, well, that's okay, I'm going to use this until that next step. But I remember thinking you know, when my wife told me that she's pregnant, like, okay, I need to think about, um, even if, you know, we don't have times 10 the students, what if someday because of a family commitment I have 10% of my bandwidth, you know, and, and how do I empower and train people, um, to basically do what we do and experience no loss in quality, um, even if I'm not, you know, touching everything, right? And so that was a big, big shift for me.. And I think that was actually— so I'm very grateful, you know, even for— I mean, I love my son, I love my wife, I'm very grateful for them in general. But from even a business standpoint, I'm very grateful because those events forced me to rethink the way we do things. I don't think the business could exist the way it does today if I didn't make those decisions that were essentially forced upon— if I was a single guy and I can work, you know, 16 hours a day and not care about it, you know, you know, pleasing or upsetting anyone, all this kind of stuff. I would, I would just do that, you know, pedal to the metal. But I've had to rethink systems and growth and all this kind of stuff. And it just also, it also forces you to think about what's necessary. You know, like, people always say stuff like, you need a bustling social media page or whatever. It's like, I don't know, actually, that I do, you know, if certain other things drive your traffic, maybe you don't need it. And you say, well, I could spend more time on this with unknown returns, or I can spend more time with my family. Is it is that thing really going to move the needle? Do I care if it does?

Right?

It sort of forces you, going back to that car example, to go get bread from the store. You really wonder, like, do I really want to do this?

Do we?

How much do I need it? It basically makes you think because you're weighing these efforts.

The value of time becomes a very real thing.

Absolutely. You're just thinking about time and opportunity and opportunity costs in a whole different way that you didn't prior to being married or having a kid. That was my experience.

So yeah, for sure. So I did something similar, not when I had a kid, because when I had a kid I didn't have a business, but I launched it shortly after he was born. Yeah, but around the time my second kid, I realized I was an owner-operator and my thing was more about death. If I die, if I get hit by a bus tomorrow, some bad traffic accident, or stroke out, like I've kind of screwed my family. So because like I am the driving force in this business, you're the key man. And if I'm gone, this whole thing's just going to collapse. Yeah, all the customers will flee, you know, vendors will be gone, and the employees are going to go find another job. And so I was too much the crux. And so I wrote, I mean, it was like a couple inches thick binder of like really thinking about the business. And, uh, you know, like you said, it really makes you reassess how things operate. And that was probably the best thing, or the most effective thing I ever did in the business, was really sitting down. It took probably over the course of a couple months to really do it right, um, to really assess how do we operate this business, and being able to put it on paper and verbalize it. And it made all the difference in how we operate. We changed a lot of things and gave me such clarity as a business owner. Yep. And a little peace as a father, simply because I knew then if I died, there was a literal binder my wife could go to, and she knew what to say to the customers, you know, she knew what to say to the vendors, what to say to the employees. I wrote letters to the employees to make sure this thing continued to run, at least until we could sell or um, she could hire a manager to kind of replace my role. Sure. And to not make me the, the linchpin in the entire thing. I mean, because that's not a really— it's, it's not a good way to run a business that wants to grow.

It's also not really a business in some ways.

It's a profitable hobby.

Sure.

Yeah. So yeah, being able to replace— essentially replace myself as the owner on paper And then how to align and flow and how the business operates. Yeah, it, it was the best thing we ever did. Now I did it after the second kid, and then I realized I replaced myself as Townsend the business owner so well, that's when I started writing the content that I'm doing now, which is how do I replace Townsend the dad, which is a little bit more complex and less fixed. And that's the content we're sharing now on 100% Dad, what, 10 years later. Yeah. Which is, you know, same thing. What are your priorities and, you know, what's important?

Yeah.

So it's not a lot of people do that. There's a lot of small business owners, even successful business owners, they've never, they've never really sat there and gone through that process of reflection on their business. They just, they run it day to day, fire to fire.

Yeah. You gotta, you gotta think about how it's going to survive you. Because otherwise, you know, it's you, you know, you're the, you're like you said, the key man. And this isn't just about buying good key man insurance, which is essentially life insurance for business owners, but also thinking about, yeah, all these different scenarios. Or what if you're just out, you know, you have, you don't have internet for a week, what happens? You know, who does what, who's empowered to do what, and you need to train other people to not necessarily know every single thing you do, but collectively, for them to know what you know, right? And, uh, if they can— if there's that brain trust that can come together, uh, during that sort of period, it's, uh, it's really valuable. So thank you for sharing that.

Yeah, no, absolutely.

You're the one that brought it up. All right, so now, so the original question was— and you jumped into kind of how it is now— so what was your perception of what fatherhood would be, you know, pre-delivery versus post-delivery, focusing on those like first 6 weeks of infancy?

Yeah, um, what it was versus what it is. Um, it's, it's— some of it is a blur.

What you thought, what you thought it would be versus reality.

What I thought it would be. Um, what I thought it would be, I mean, I don't think those things were super different, uh, to be quite frank. Um, I knew that it would require, you know, I knew that raising a baby requires a lot of time. I didn't quite realize how many diapers we'd have to change. I, um, the, the thing that was wild too, so I thought like, you know, they're up a few hours, they sleep a few hours, and all this kind of stuff, and it's going to be a rough, you know, sick first 6 months. And, and all those things were true from a sleep standpoint and whatnot. Um, but I, I remember thinking I'd have more uninterrupted chunks of time than I actually did. Um, and you know, because if you're— if your baby is up 2 hours before they nap again, they're feeding in the beginning especially. They take so long to feed. Maybe they're feeding for 20 minutes, and then you're burping them, and then they poop, and you change them, and you hold them. It's not like, uh, it's not like you just put them in a rocker and they just hang out there. Like, you're actively doing stuff when they're awake, and then and then they're asleep, um, and then, you know, like 2 hours, 3 hours later they might wake up, and, you know, by the time you're, I don't know, eating or showering or doing exercise or whatever, you only have like half an hour left to do work, and then they're up again, and then, oh God forbid, you want to spend time with your spouse or watch, watch a TV show or something like that. So it just, um, I knew I would have limited time. I didn't realize quite how limited it was going to be. And then you also, you know, you have all these plans of I want to do X, Y, and Z, but then your baby's up and you just kind of want to hang out with your baby. Or maybe they're sleeping. You just kind of want to stare at your baby, like, you know. So I think, you know, we come into it of like, it's going to be these like, that you can almost— you think you can schedule your life the way you do when they're older or pre-baby, but you can't really because you're sort of at the, at the baby's whim. And so you also have to have conversations with your, with your spouse about, you know, who's doing what and when, um, and what are our responsibilities. Because if you just do the, okay, baby's asleep, I'm gonna go do this thing, but your wife had expectations that you're actually gonna run this errand, well, now you're in trouble, right? You're going to have an argument.

That's—

so these things came up all the time.

Yeah, that's a super good tip. Uh, so how, uh, how did you prepare? Uh, because you seem like you went into it pretty knowledgeable. So what was your preparation for fatherhood? Did you have younger siblings or brothers and sisters, other kids that you were familiar with? Or is it reading books and kind of studying? Or do you just have a natural intuition for what this was going to be?

I don't— you know, good question. I, you know, we're— my wife and I, our friends and family members make fun of us all the time, uh, that we discuss serious things too much. Um, so we're the kind of people, even pre-marriage, you know, talking about how many kids, talking about finances, talking about, um, you know, raising them in the church, right? You know, all this kind of stuff.

And, um, wait, you got made fun of for talking about the things that you should absolutely be talking about?

Well, but, but that's not, that's not common, I don't think, in our, in our society. You tell me, right? Like, so, you know, a lot of people are like, man, you guys like have too many serious conversations. So yeah, sure, maybe we, maybe we are too much that way. Um, but I think like having those conversations was really nice because we had the playbook as far— not, not like knowing everything a baby would do or what a baby would be like, but knowing how we were going to be together as a couple and how we want to raise this child, what our values were for parenting. So I'll give ourselves credit for having those grown-up conversations even while we were dating. So that was something that was really important to us. In addition to that, I mean, just, I guess we're fortunate we're both child psychologists by training. Not that being a child psychologist prepares you for raising a 6-month-old or 2-month-old or whatever the case might be. But just as far as the importance of attachment and spending time with your child and building relationship with your child and with your family. Those things really matter to us. And then, you know, we both have older siblings who have kids, and so we're, you know, I'm an uncle and she's an aunt to several kids. And, you know, just seeing that and having that experience was also very valuable to us.

So Surag brought up a really great point about just having those real discussions he said he was getting made fun of for. And those are things I think is top-tier advice for any new dad and new husband, is have the conversations prior the best you can or as early as you can. If you're already married, then the time is now. And if you're about to get married, again, the time is now to have those discussions about finances and in-laws and how you want to live life and how many kids kids you want to have and, you know, how you want to raise those kids, how you feel about discipline, you know, what church you want to go to, do you want to raise your kids in a certain faith and in a certain way, you know, how close do you want to live to your in-laws and the sensitive topics that, that at least in marriages are often the big reasons why the marriage ends. So let's have those conversations and be in a agreement, or at least have the knowledge of each other so we can prepare for it and we have that understanding and it's not a shock down the line. But same thing with having that new baby is, you know, preparing as much as possible and having discussions about what roles are going to be and, you know, what the expectations are. You know, there's— that's an absolutely great, great tip by Chirag. Unfortunately, the, the interview got messed up by me. It's one of the downsides to being on the road all the time, is signal is— signal is sometimes there and sometimes not. And I'm almost entirely dependent on the cellular signals, and everyone knows those are super reliable. So unfortunately, we kind of had to cut that interview up early because it got too choppy and we just couldn't communicate well anymore. But I wish it could have kept it going. It would have been, uh, we had some fascinating discussions. There's a lot of knowledge there in, uh, in Sharog's head. This is 100 Dad Podcast.

This is 100 Dad. Find our current tour schedule on 100dad.com, 100dad.com, on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and more @100dad, 100dad. Email Townsend at 100- www.townsend.com