S2:E6 100% Dad Podcast Redefining Manliness

Jonathan and Thomas from Redefining Manliness podcast, welcome to 100% Dad Interviews with Dads.

Thanks, thanks for having us.

So start out, tell me a little bit about yourself. Jonathan, go first because you're in the middle of the screen. And, uh, so give me a little background on you, and then, uh, Thomas, a little background on you. And then one of y'all take the lead and tell me about this, uh, Redefining Manliness podcast.

Yeah, man, absolutely. So like I said, obviously my name is Jonathan, uh, 29, going about 30 this year, so super excited for that. It'll be a big year. I got a whole bunch of big stuff happening this year— hitting 30, having my first child in June. So my wife and I are excited for that. I've been married for 7 years now, together for 10. I'm currently a worship pastor here at a church here in Colorado, but before then I was in the military, did 6 years in the Army as an MP. So a little bit, a little bit, a little bit of different worlds, and yet surprisingly so, there's so much that intertwines and comes together uh, in, in clergy and military police, which was, it was fun to find that out. Uh, but we know Thomas and I, we've met what, 5, 6 years now, like 4 or 5 years ago-ish. Uh, talked about putting together a podcast. We had some, some content that we wanted to share with other men, dads, fathers, husbands, brothers, all that good stuff. Uh, so we started putting that together about almost a year and a half ago, but we actually started what, 6 months ago that we actually started putting content out. But it took us about a year of talking to get us convinced ourselves to do it and get on the same schedule. And I mean, obviously last year was ridiculous anyway, so it kind of threw everything for a loop, but here we are now, man.

Cool. And Thomas?

Yeah, so me, I— Jonathan and I actually met working at the church. I was working there in the accounting department, and, you know, you kind of wonder how a worship guy and an accounting person come together, that's it. You put them, you know, working together at a church and, uh, you know, the, the friendship blossomed and, uh, you know, we started the podcast. But, uh, for me specifically, uh, I am married to my wife of 14 going on 15 years this September, um, and we've got 3 kids. I've got twin 7-year-old boys and an almost 2-year-old daughter. She turns 2 in about a month. And so we put about a 5-year gap in between because when you have twins the first time around, it takes a little time to recover and, and see if you even want to have any more. So we did, and we're actually planning on trying for more. So, you know, we're in this for the long haul. Right now, currently, I work as a personal financial coach, so I help people in their personal finances to create budgets, uh, get out of debt and save for their future. Um, but yeah, that's, uh, that's me. Uh, and then, you know, the podcast, uh, like Jonathan said, we met at the church, you know, we had a great friendship, and, uh, then, you know, we started thinking about this podcast. And, you know, it took about a year of planning and kind of getting ready to get ready before the first episode, uh, actually came out. And, uh, and then, you know, the rest is history. We've been doing it since, uh, what, November, October, November?

Yeah, 2020.

Yeah. So yeah, cool.

Uh, which church is this?

Uh, Victory Church in Westminster, Colorado. So whenever you're in Colorado doing the 100 Dad Tour, come on by, man.

Big Creek, Westminster.

Victory.

Victory.

Yeah.

So Victory Church, where's Westminster?

Uh, so it's about— it's a suburb, uh, north of Denver. We're about 15 minutes north of downtown Denver. So I mean, honestly, we could call it Denver, but you know how they like to do— we have to break it out into suburbs and counties and stuff, but it's pretty much Denver.

I think Colorado is the state we, uh, we have stayed the most in. Uh, really? You know what, it's probably Texas now.

Okay.

Um, but we did, we did two legs of Colorado in the beginning where we kind of came across from Kansas. We did, uh, Eleven Mile State Park, uh, which is about an hour from Colorado Springs. Then we went to Navajo State Park in the southwest by Durango. Then we went over to Rifle. Yeah, which is what, west of Denver? And then when we got done with all the Utah, Idaho, Montana, Dakotas, Minnesota, all that, uh, we came through Wyoming. We did Denver and we stayed in, uh, the Cherry Hill— Cherry Trees State Park, South Denver.

Yep, yep, South Denver, Cherry Creek.

And then, then we did— was south of, uh, Denver, Colorado Springs we stayed in. And then we went over to the Great Sand Dunes. Yeah, so we've done 6 stops in Colorado. So unfortunately I've already missed you.

Well, next time.

I didn't know. We like Colorado though. We like the, uh, it's a very active city. Or not city, a very active state. And we like that. We like hiking, we like getting outdoors, and that seems to be something everybody in Colorado has in common.

Yeah, one of the cool parts about living here, that everywhere, whether you're on the, you know, the East Coast, East Plains, or the west on the mountains, or down south, you got, you know, Rifle and Durango, and you're like everywhere, there's something, whether you're skiing, snowboarding, sand dunes, the Cherry Creek Lake reservoirs. Fishing, hunting. I mean, we've got it all, so it's so much fun. Which, surprisingly— I mean, Thomas, I gotta tell you, under those here, buddy, uh, Thomas does not like the outdoors, which is probably why he moved to Florida. He's like, you know what, nah, I'm not gonna do all that, so I'm gonna head to Florida instead.

Uh, so you left the church and moved to what part of Florida?

Uh, we moved to Orlando, a suburb right outside the Orlando area.

Uh, I know real well.

Which part? Uh, Apopka.

Yep, yep, know real well.

Yeah, yeah, we moved, we moved here. All of my wife's family and my family is in this area. We're about 20 minutes from everyone. We had moved out to Colorado originally in 2008 to buy a business, and, uh, we were there for 12 years, uh, you know, continued at the church, serving in the church, working at the church, uh, and then just kind of got to the point where we felt like our kids just needed to be able to grow up around cousins and grandparents and things like that. We had no one out in Colorado, um, family-wise. And, uh, and so, um, we decided to head back to Florida and did that about, oh man, what, 2 weeks ago, 3 weeks ago? Yeah.

So, yeah, still getting used to it.

Yeah, yeah.

All right, so, uh, what, uh, so business and finance is a natural, um, attraction to me because those are some of my favorite topics. Uh, so what business did you go out to buy in Colorado? Or attempt to buy?

We moved out to buy a franchise. It was a children's gymnastics facility. And, uh, my, my wife was more of the, the gymnast than I was, but I was, you know, I had— we had worked at the company for, I guess, 5 years before we bought the location. They contacted us and said, hey, we've got 2 options, uh, one in Colorado and one in Syracuse. And we said, no question, we're going to Colorado. Yeah. And so, uh, we went to Colorado and, uh, and ran that business. We owned location down in Colorado Springs during that time. Uh, we owned them for overall about 8 years, uh, got out of the business, and then, uh, that's when we got— we started working at the church. She started working there before I did, and then they recruited me on the accounting side. Uh, then, you know, the rest is history. You know, she, uh, she still works there. I branched out, you know, and opened my own business as a personal financial coach in the last— during COVID in the last, uh, a year. Um, and so I started doing that, but she's still working for the church now, and she's just doing her job remotely. They're kind of forming a position.

Are you, are you like independent on your own, personal advisor? Are you like through a program or another, uh, I don't know, what, a company or whatever it is?

So kind of yes to all of it. I, I own my own business. It's, it's my practice and everything, but, uh, I got certified through the Dave Ramsey organization and, um, you know, got all my training there. So I come from that school of thought, but I, you know, implement my own style and philosophy.

That's a good school of thought.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you always ran the financial piece stuff here as well, and I know— I think you're probably still doing that remotely and stuff, so, uh, it was a good segue, good tie-in. And now, now he's helping me out with my finances, make sure we're all set up for, for the baby and for the future and all stuff, because, you know, apparently now I got to stop spending like crazy and start thinking about, you know, the next 20 years or so.

That up— I'm telling you, being not having payments and being debt-free is like, it's a really cool, amazing thing, um, to actually be in, especially when you get to the point of house paid off. Yeah, because I mean, at that point, you just— it gives you so much peace of mind and freedom to kind of do whatever you want, because if you screw up, if you blow everything, you still got a roof over your head. You're better than 98% of the population. All you gotta do is get to the grocery store and buy a few things.

Yeah, so that's the goal and Thomas is helping us out step by step, right?

Yeah, for sure.

Good, good, good. So another question, so dads that are looking into franchises and franchises are a big thing. So my natural personality, I like the franchise idea if I'm the guy with the franchise and selling it. As a franchisee, I like it in my head for like the first year. And then after that, I never want to pay that, you know, that ongoing 6% or whatever it is. It just, it hurts me inside. But I mean, that's the exchange for franchise. They give you a system, they give you a process, they, you know, they get you going. Um, so what's your opinion on that for dads that are looking into it? Good thing, bad thing? Um, obviously a little bit of both, but what was your experience?

You know, in terms of the franchise, um, model, I think that I overall had a pretty good experience. We got what we paid for in the royalties, you know, we were getting that support from the corporate office, we were getting their marketing and their brand, you know, pre-set up, you know, the company had been around for 30 years, so it was good for us to kind of get on at that point. I don't know if it's worth 6% of what your income is because it's 6% of your income, not 6% of your profits, or at least in our model it was because because they want to make sure they get their money off the top.

Yeah, that's pretty normal.

Yeah. And so, uh, you know, there are certain models that I would definitely go into. I would probably go into a Chick-fil-A, uh, type of model that, you know, I mean, you're not gonna not make money with Chick-fil-A. And so, uh, you know, but what we were in, it was, it was a niche, uh, you know, a small niche. Um, and so it was good.

We loved it.

We made a living out of it for 6 years— sorry, 8 years. Um, and You know, if you want to go that route, you know, there's pros and cons to everything. I mean, obviously you're going to get that support and that backing and you're going to get that, that marketing and branding that, you know, you wouldn't have on your own. And it's going to be, if you go out on your own and try and go toe to toe with that franchise, overall, you're probably going to lose. But, you know, there are certain things you can do independently, you know, and separate. You just kind of have to know your market. And do your research as to what you're getting into. You know, I mean, if you put up, you know, an independent burger joint right next to a McDonald's, maybe you succeed, maybe you don't. You know, if you do, you know, a kids' gymnastics facility like I did and you're separated, remote on your own, and there's nothing in the territory near you, you're probably going to succeed. So I think that you just have to do your research and be smart about it.

Well, I don't know anything about business, but I would assume it's probably a good, uh, good leg up, kind of a good starter point for anybody that wants to start, right? You got, you know, you got the brick-and-mortar building, you got all that figured out, and I would imagine so somebody that wants to get into business, they're like, okay, maybe I'll start off here, kind of learn the ropes, and then jump into a whole business thing. But even now, right, that was brick-and-mortar, that almost feels antiquated in some instances, right? We have so much online business, so much kind of what you're doing, helping out people at home and stuff.

So Yeah, and, and the, the difference is, is we didn't start a brand new location, so ours was a resale. And so the— that was turnkey for us. We had to have the capital to go in and start working, and we were able to get to work right away. We didn't have to wait for the building to be built or anything.

That's always nice. So you already have your customers.

Yep, exactly. We didn't have to go find anybody. So, so that was beneficial for us. So that's— I liked that route in terms of it. I mean, if you're gonna go into a franchise, maybe you can find one for sale if you're willing to relocate to an area that someone's trying to get out of the business. And we got ours at a deal. It was failing at the time we took it on. And, you know, we took it on and increased it. And then we were able to—

So what percentage of customers did you lose because of an ownership transfer?

Oh, percentage-wise, I'd say probably less than 5%.

Oh yeah, that's real good.

Yeah, it was good. The, the previous owner did do a good job setting us up well with the customers. Um, didn't necessarily do a good job with the business himself, but he did a good job making sure that everybody stayed with us and didn't leave because he was leaving. So, so that was nice. I don't think that's going to be the case for everybody, unfortunately.

But I've heard some horror stories about, you know, you're dropping big bucks on a company and then all of a sudden half the customers leave because they like Johnny.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Um, all right, so Jonathan's having a kid, uh, first kid, age 30. Uh, any nieces, nephews? Did you have little siblings or anything, or are you going into this totally blind?

Well, not totally, but I've got two nephews. Uh, one is 6 and one is about to be a year old. Um, but I mean, they were all living out in New Mexico while I was here in Colorado, so I didn't really I wasn't really around for the baby stuff.

So you haven't changed a diaper?

No, not in 15+ years. No. So I think I was 15 when my sister, my youngest sister, was born. So yeah, it's been about 15 years since I've—

okay, so you have— so at that age you have a little bit— you've seen your parents deal with it?

Yeah, yeah. So I've got, you know, history, uh, nothing recent. You know, my— up until this point, my experience with kids was let me hold it for 5 minutes, All right, that's cute, it's crying, you can have it back.

Yeah.

And in this case, I don't, I don't get to do that anymore.

You have it back.

Well, I mean, you know, you can have your child back.

Uh, yeah, I mean, the infant stuff is, it's fatiguing. I mean, that's really, that's really all. Um, and usually the hospitals, especially for first-time parents, they usually have classes and things like that on just the basics, you know, how to swaddle, how to you know, feed, um, you know, breastfeeding classes. And I mean, really, your job is mostly, you know, the burden's really on mom, and our job's kind of to support mom, um, you know, because honestly, especially if you're breastfeeding, I mean, yeah, I can't do it for 3 months, right?

I can change a diaper and burp at night.

I mean, you can, you know, you know, you'll, you'll get into pumping and things like that to where you have a bottle, and you can figure out how to like get ahead on that so mom can skip like and get 4 hours of sleep, and you can take that one in the middle. But Um, you know, moms are so sensitive to the crying and everything anyway. They're still waking up, but at least they get to roll over. Yeah, you know, go back to sleep. Um, also, I think they have to pump every— it's been a while. I mean, it's been, I guess, 4 years. Um, but I think they have to, they have to pump every, you know, X amount of time. So sometimes they have to wake up regardless just to pump. Um, yeah, but, you know, diapers and all that, I mean You figure that out. I mean, it's not that hard.

Yeah, when I figured it out, and whatever, I've been telling everybody, I'm like, listen, I have no choice but to figure it out, right? I'm not going to go anywhere. Oh yeah, I'm not going to dip out and say, well, you know what, figure it out yourself. Good luck. Like, that's not going to happen.

You know what I did? Um, 100% that, um, I really like kids, and so I was pretty involved. But, um, looking back, I realized I started a business every time we had a kid. So that meant, you know, when you start a business from scratch, you have to put a lot of time and effort into it. And, you know, so it'd get to a certain point like that 6-8 week mark of infancy and be like, listen, you know, I got to make sure I get some sleep because I got to go get customers in the morning. I gotta, you know, this thing is tinkering on the brink of whatever. So, you know, I was, I definitely did, I definitely did plenty of feedings. I was always there, but I definitely made sure, looking back, I didn't know it at the time, that I would— I started a business with every kid.

Wow.

Yeah. And that, that, that probably came from fear of I've got to provide for another mouth. So it was kind of like, this is how I provide. I got to create a new income stream. Right. But my wife's argument is that it was a way for me to get away. So, so I don't have to deal with the baby. She may not be wrong, but it might have been something.

You were both right.

Yeah, subconscious truth, which I can't control. Yeah.

You know, something I'm, something I'm learning now, and I had a really good friend of mine, a good mentor of mine speak into my life recently, said, you know, slow it down. I'm a really, like, I'm a really high-performance kind of guy. Like, if something needs to get done, I'm gonna jump in and do it, especially in the church role. I love being in ministry. I love being involved in that. And there's— and I always feel like, hey, if I want to be working in ministry, if I want to be serving, you know, God in my community, I want to do as much as I can. I want to extend myself to the full of my capabilities and take on every role that I can take. For example, now, you know, I'm doing worship, I'm doing online, getting ready for a new location. Like, I'm getting involved as much as I can. And I came to our senior pastor, who's a good mentor of mine, and I said, hey, I want to do more. And he realized, he said, listen, that's great, I think you can. You're about to have a baby. Learn to slow down, learn to figure out, like, this is work, this is home. Where does it intertwine? Where do you need to separate it? And learn to just— you're about to go into a whole new role and learn to kind of slow down, slow it down just a little bit. Uh, so it's something I'm learning now. I'm like, okay, cool, I want— because I'm with you, I'm like, I want to provide, I want to make sure that we're, we're, we're meeting our needs, uh, spiritually, physically, financially, emotionally, all of that stuff. But I also got to figure out, okay, slow down, enjoy it, enjoy the baby, enjoy the crying and all of that stuff, because it's gonna pass. And then I'm like, all right, let's do another one.

It's very true. It's certainly easier said than done when that thing is colicky.

Yeah, yeah. Well, when you got two of them at the same time—

oh yeah, I wouldn't even—

you're a champ, bro, you're a champ.

So we, uh, you know, going back to the classes, the hospital having classes, we were in one of those parenting classes and we made it like to like 3 of the 6 classes before my wife went into labor early and we were like, well, I guess we're not going to learn anymore from those because we're going to get the real deal to learn from. So, so yes, our boys were born 10 and a half weeks early and so we spent 6 weeks in the NICU. But the good news coming out of the NICU is they had them on a perfect, fantastic schedule when we came home. And so they ate, slept, poop, ate, slept, poop. Like it was just, you know, like clockwork.

So that's a controversial subject, um, in the, in the mom world of, um, sleep training and scheduling your children. And I am a, uh, I'm a big fan because we didn't do it for our first one until about 6 months in when it was just driving us crazy.

Yeah.

And then after that, it, it, it is amazing. And we've got, we've got great kids. They've turned out well. We did not destroy their, their psyche or their subconscious. They're not evil. Um, But sleep training was big. You know what? You know, you mentioned not being able to finish the classes and spending so much time in the hospital. I assume your story is similar of those nurses in the delivery area are freaking amazing. Oh yeah, they teach you so much. Like, they teach you the real deal. Yes. Like, everything is kind of theoretical in the classes, and then like they show you, they teach you, they, they have such a wealth of experience and you know, lean on them heavy.

Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely.

You know, and you know, I mean, we had two totally different experiences with the twins on one side and having the NICU nurses there to care for us, you know, and, and the babies, you know, around the clock, uh, for 6 weeks. And you know, to see— if you ever want to get, you know, kind of freaked out about something, you know, take a 3-pound baby and watch a nurse just go scoop and, you know, change their diaper and bathe them and, you know, put them back in the little, little bin, you they do it all the time, so they're not even worried about it. But man, I was like so gentle and, you know, trying to figure this out. And, you know, so that was interesting. And then when we had our daughter, she was born about 5 weeks early, but she didn't have any NICU time. And we got maybe 2 days of in the hospital and they were like, all right, you know, you're out on your own. So, you know, they were still helpful, but it's a lot different of an experience from a NICU to a labor and delivery.

So, so as a small business owner, did you, um, did you just prepay in cash or did you have insurance that covered it?

No, we had, uh, uh, we had insurance and, you know, so we had a deductible that we had to pay. Um, and at that time we weren't set up financially to be able to pay it all outright in cash. So we set up, uh, we had an HSA, uh, and so we set up payment plans through the HSA. So it was all paid through there. We just had to do it over time.

Jonathan, I see you have insurance through the church, I assume?

Yeah, and we're actually doing prepaying like a lot of all her doctor stuff now because there's some stuff obviously the insurance covers the majority, but there's a few things like specialists and stuff. So we're like, let's just prepay now whatever we can before—

whatever, whatever you're— so this is great advice for, um, new dads. So there's a couple things I think that's just good little hot tips, uh, whatever your insurance will do, and we prepaid for ours, um And so they would cover like up to, I think it was 4 days or 3 days, one of those two, for a C-section. Because all of them— our first baby was Breeze— in the hospital we went to, once you've had a C-section, uh, you have to do C-sections after that. So, so I think the recovery time, what we prepaid, was like 3 to 4 days. And they would always try and release us early. And the first time we did that, and we just— oh, we're ready to go home. So we did. Um, second and third, we put our foot down and said, no, we're staying. Yeah, but 4 days is covered.

We're staying 4 days.

Well, we're staying, and you know, it's, it's kind of like what Ross Geller in, uh, in Friends, like, we are staying till 11:59 because we get kicked out at noon. Um, uh, for a few reasons. The first one, we went home early, and then like my wife's milk hadn't fully come in, and that first night was, um, tremendously difficult. Um, and then he ended up like— they were kind of wondering, he might have been jaundiced, might not have been jaundiced. So we ended up having to go back for another day, and then they were trying charge us for that day even though we had prepaid for 4 days, left at like 2, and they came back for 1, and they were questionable in between. They're trying to charge us for another day. We're like, yeah, well, we paid for 4. Um, so we ended up settling with that. But, um, yeah, after that, so we, we just stay. It's good for Mom, especially if the hospitals will, um, um, like they will take the, um, babies into the baby room so Mom gets a little bit more rest. Um, I, you know, I think the hospital where— so we had, we stayed, we had a kid at the same hospital um, about 2 and a half years apart, the same hospital. The experiences were much better each time we got there. I mean, this was what, 2010, 2013, 2016, and it dramatically improved each time, which is weird because, I mean, those are pretty modern dates. You would think they'd had it figured out by 2010. Um, but there was a couple things I remember getting advice or, or that we definitely try to do the second or third time, making sure the baby latches on right away. You know, with regular delivery, you know, mom's right there. With our first C-section, they whipped the baby out. They said the hospital or the surgery room's too cold, so they whipped the baby out there real quick. And it's, you know, medically and I guess bonding-wise and like how the baby thinks and reacts, it's important to get latched to the mom's breast like within an hour. Of being delivered. And so like, that's something like, that was my goal, you know, because dads have to have goals, right? Right. I'm like, within an hour, like, she's— get her, get that baby to mom, get the baby here.

Yeah, 60 minutes.

Yeah, because dad, you know, in that situation, dad stays with the baby and mom stays in the, the surgical room. So that was something we pushed hard on, was getting the baby on there. But the second and third, they let us stay in, um, and they let the baby stay with mom. So I don't know if they raised the temperature or what, or they just, you know, did enough studies where, you know, it's fine.

Yeah, yeah, we were, we were taking through it and talking through it, and we, we thought for a second about doing natural birth, right? Having a home birth and having somebody come here and get a midwife and stuff like that. Uh, we still haven't fully settled on it. We're actually looking at a kind of an in-between place, so it's not a hospital but it's not here at the house. Like, we'll go to them and they'll do the natural birth and stuff, but like, like, Yeah, you know, she'll have a midwife and all stuff, but I was like, you pick whatever you want. Like, I'm gonna— this is— this is you, you're the one pushing the baby out. Like, you do whatever you want to do. I'm there, whether— whatever we have to pay more or less or whatever.

Those seem— those seem pretty cool. We couldn't do it because our first baby was breeched, so. Right. Um, because we were— I think we were— my wife was trending in that direction. We went to some birthing centers and checked them out.

Yeah.

Um, and basically the thing is, you know, it if something goes wrong, you know, it's, hey, how close are you to the hospital? How fast can we get this taken care of? Um, but they're usually pretty knowledgeable. Um, gosh, there's a few other things, you know.

I'm surprised you say that there was controversial on the— I'm going to push back a little bit, or pull back a little bit, to the sleeping schedule, because we have a friend of ours who's on the quirky side. But his kids are the best behaved kids I have ever met, like, in my life. And him and his wife, they swear by this book, uh, Becoming Babywise. And it's all about that, about like the sleeping schedule and really having the baby adjust to your schedule versus you making a schedule for the baby.

Um, and yeah, that book is controversial.

Yeah, is it? And yeah, but I'll tell you, I'm on board with it.

We did it and it worked well. The kids have turned out great.

I've seen all— he's got like 6 or 7 kids now, I lost count, but all of them are phenomenally behave. Some of the best kids I've ever met.

And especially when they're— especially when they're younger, like toddlers walking, like, they'll tell you when nap time is. Yeah, they'll go to their grandparents' house who try and spoil them, and they'll be like, no, I can't stay up anymore, you know, it's time for bed. And they'll just grab their blankie and walk off to bed. Yeah, so I mean, it really is nice. So another thing at the hospital I just thought of, um, was, uh, the first time we went in, um, uh, they're always taking blood and things like that, um, and, you know, checking levels. And they'll come in all throughout the night. And if you ask, you can request, you can try and get them to sync up that for when they're waking you to take pills or give drugs, or you can get it all done at the same time, or they can make their best effort that way. Because I think our first time in there, again, it was only 2 nights, I think. But yeah, she never got any sleep. Like, it was every 30, 45 minutes somebody was coming in. It was either the baby coming in to be fed, or somebody going in to take blood, or, you know, getting poked, or just checking on things. And You know, we were told that we can, we can request that all those things kind of line up more. Um, uh, you know, they make an extra effort to do that so Mom can get some sleep. So something to kind of, you know, okay, keep that in mind too. It, you know, it always made me feel good as a man when I had a job to do and like there were some specific things that I could control and, you know, I'm the gatekeeper and whatnot. So, um, you know, yeah, I'm with you. It works for you.

That was, that was one of my concerns. I'm like, listen, I want to be as helpful as I can. Like, I'll, I'll go get you whatever you need, but I feel like I'm going to be useless. Like, I'll be here to hold your hand and, and take pictures if you want me to. Uh, but so knowing that, I'm like, okay, cool, I can, I can have some goals. Like, well, I can tell the nurse to sync stuff up. I can put my foot down for the 4 days. Okay, well, that gives me a little bit of—

no, so you just put the good— so you can do all the, um, I think, you know, I, I did probably all the diaper changes in the hospital.

Okay.

Mostly because my wife was cut open, so her abs were like sliced in half, so she couldn't even sit up.

Yeah.

Um, I think I did all the, all the swaddling. Swaddling is like my favorite part of an infant. Um, oh yeah, I don't know, a little burrito thing, right? Yeah, you make them a burrito and like, you guys are in Colorado, you probably had some rodeo competitions. I mean, it's very similar, like how fast can you wrap that thing up? Uh, and I mean, nobody could break out of my swaddle. I mean, I was an expert. It was, it was, it was a world-class swaddling.

I have a— I've wrapped, I've wrapped a number of burritos in my day, so I hope I got some sort of training.

Yeah, no, it's fun, it's, it's good. And I mean, so yeah, I did all the swaddling, um, and all the diapers, and that's about all you can do. I mean, she has to do the feeding, um, but you know, you can take baby from mom to the carriage, crib, whatever.

Yeah, good. Well, that gives me— that gives me— they give me some ease knowing like, okay, cool, I can still help, I can still do something, because obviously coming home, I know, like, I know here, cool, I can do the night feeding, I can obviously change diapers here at home, I can help the baby upstairs, get the room ready. Like, I'm doing a lot of pre-stuff, like I'm getting the nursery ready, I'm painting, I'm building out the, the, the crib, building out the, the changing station. Like, I feel like I'm doing a lot pre, but I'm like, what am I gonna be able to do post? Um, so let's get some others. I can still help.

There's always diapers to change, like every 30 minutes.

Yeah.

And those first ones, I mean, those— that first few days is just— it is nasty tar. Yeah, I mean, yeah, you need it. You need like— you need a good like 12-grit sandpaper to get through that stuff.

So maybe we'll use disposable to start off with before we start with the cloth, because if they're going to be that bad, I'm not saving those.

We used to— we— when we— so when we first had a kid and we did like the baby registry and all, we went to, um probably Target, um, and we saw video monitors and we're like, what kind of parent, paranoid parent, you know, we were '80s babies, we need a video monitor? I mean, that's ridiculous. And so we didn't get one. By our second or third kid, we had video monitors. So we got tired of like military crawling into the, uh, into the bed just to check on the baby. So then you could just have the visual. So there were a few video monitors, definitely where it's at.

Ours We still have ours. Only one of the two cameras still works. The microphone stopped working for a while, so I had like taken a drill to it to try and like— it is, it is running on its last legs. The battery doesn't charge, you know, you have to kind of set the cord at a certain angle so that the wires inside actually touch. And you know, that's the finance in me, like I don't want to spend it. I know the ROI is not going to be as good on the third one because— or on fourth kid, the third pregnancy, because we're only going to get to use it for probably one. And so then, you know, what's the point? So I'm trying to make it last through one more, but my wife's got it on the list already. We're gonna have to— we're gonna have to buy another one.

So, dude, Facebook—

so, and get one with solid range. I don't know what size house you have, but, you know, the better range the better, because those walls and things really cut it down.

Okay.

Um, well, yeah, video monitors are— I just remember we made fun of people so hard, like, that's so ridiculous. And than, you know, second, third kid. It's a necessity.

You learn, right? I mean, that's, that's, I guess that you hope, you hope to learn. That's the whole thing, right? How hard could this be? This will be easy. But now I'm like, oh, okay, maybe it's gonna be a little harder.

I'm learning. We, we make fun of ourselves so hard for things we did with that first one, just stupid things that by the time you have your second and third, you're like an expert at it. You just don't even care. Like the way we would rock the baby and like slowly rock and try and sit down. But keep the motion going so we didn't disturb the baby. And by the second one, we're almost tossing like a football, like a nap.

Nice.

But yeah, no, it's fun. And the, the whole experience is— you'll look back on it and be fond of it. But, um, I mean, yeah, I don't know if you guys will end up doing formula at all. We didn't want to, but mom didn't make enough milk, or the kids are just stupidly hungry. Um, yeah, so we would you know, breastfeed and then feed with the bottle. So I guess there was always a, um, an option for me. But, you know, there's ways to get involved.

The more conversations I have with other dads, the more I realize that my wife and I probably haven't talked enough about what we're gonna do with this baby. Because you just asked, are you gonna formula or breastfeed? I'm like, I don't know, that was two things. Like, I thought you would just— I thought it was one or the other, like just breastfeed or do formula. So now I'm like, okay, hey babe, what are we gonna do? Which formula are we gonna use? So I'm always like I try to find dads now. I go out of my way to find dads and just, just have conversations with them. And because something will come up like, oh my gosh, is your wife gonna go back to work after she has a hit, or does she want to stay home with the kid? You know what, no idea. We should probably have that conversation. So yeah, it's opening, opening up new combos for us, uh, new, obviously new things for us to figure out. So it's all, it's all kinds of fun.

And that kind of stuff, I think, you know, you should try and, um Yeah, the financial situation might dictate it, but be prepared, uh, for it to change afterwards because there'll be a lot of hormones, a lot of emotions, um, you know, attachment, things like that. Yeah, you know, your wife may decide, hey, I wanna, I wanna go back to work after 8 weeks, and, and come 6, 7 weeks, she might be telling you, um, I want to stay longer, I don't want to leave. So I, I'll be prepared for that because you can't You can't script it too hard. Yeah, because you just don't know what those feelings are going to be, right?

Yeah.

So at this point, you know, we're— thank, you know, thank God that we're in a good place financially, and Thomas is helping us get to an even better place. I'm like, hey, listen, if you do want to stay home, cool, we can do that. You know, we'll have to adjust a few things, but we can make that work. So we've got a, we've got a little trip coming up, little babymoon, and we'll kind of spend some time to kind of get our heads together, put our put our plans together and figure out what's gonna— what, what at least is gonna— what are we gonna put on paper? And then, you know, obviously that can change and stuff.

And it's good to have a plan, but it is all going to change. Yeah, especially with the first kid, it's all going to change.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. My wife, you know, here's the prime example of it's all gonna change, is, you know, my wife went into labor 10 and a half weeks early, and, uh, so that was at 29 weeks in 5 days she went into labor, and she was gonna pack the hospital bag when she hit the 30-week mark. So she was 2 days away from packing the hospital bag. That's a whole different story in its own, you know, Jonathan got that story on our podcast. But, uh, you know, the, the night my wife went into labor with our kids, not, not so good, not a very bright, not a great dad moment for you.

No, no, no, you learned, you learned.

I learned. Yeah. So So what happened is I'm like a night owl and I tend to stay up later and go to bed long after she does. And, you know, she was pregnant and so she was going to bed even earlier because she was exhausted. So she went to bed and I strolled into bed at about 12:15, you know, and laid down, fell asleep for about 15, maybe 30 minutes, and she rolls over and touches me and she's like, "I think my water just broke." And I was like, "Okay, well, 30 minutes of sleep, here we go, let's do this." So we get up and we're waiting for her to call the doctor and she calls the after-hours line and she's sitting in the bathroom and she's waiting for them to call her back and probably my least fine moment, I said, okay, well, if you've got this under control, I'm gonna go lay back down for a few minutes.

You live and you learn.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it gets, it gets worse. Okay, so, so she says, so I couldn't actually end up falling back asleep. I was, you know, too excited at that point. So I go back in a few minutes later, um, she's probably already fuming at me at this point, and, uh, she says, okay, they said go ahead and come in, you know, my water definitely broke, so we need to go in. Um, and I said, okay. Uh, she said, we haven't packed the hospital bag yet. I said, okay, well, you know, if you want to work on that, I'm going to take a shower real quick and then we can go.

Her water just broke, she's covered in body fluids, but You need the shower. I needed the shower. Oh man.

Oh yeah, yeah, that was—

you know, it gives me hope because I know I'm not gonna mess up nowhere near as bad as what you did. So I'm like, you know what, I— yeah, it's all right, I got good.

Yeah, yeah, you're, you're good to go. So just if, if you ever do anything wrong, you should just tell Kim, hey, you should hear what Thomas did.

Yeah, that's right.

And I mean, to be fair Even, you know, you should help pack that bag, but you really— I mean, me, I've had 3 kids. I don't even know exactly what she would— obviously some socks, but she probably has some more comfortable socks she wants, you know. I don't know exactly what clothes she wants. I don't really go through her drawers and which shorts and shirts she likes better. So I mean, it would be pretty difficult for us to, you know, pack that portion of it. But certainly you could have grabbed her a phone charger.

I mean, yeah, I could have done something other than taking a toothbrush and toothpaste.

See, that's another thing I learned. Like, I, to this moment, I figured we'll just go to the hospital and she'll just wear a hospital gown for 4 days. Yeah, yeah, there's some truth to that.

But she's probably not going to wear that hospital gown home. So that's true.

That's true. Good to know. Pack a bag.

Yeah, bag helps. Yeah, I'm trying to think. We were, you know, we had a scheduled C-section, and I think we had to wake up at 6 AM to get there by 7. C-section was at 8, and around 4 o'clock, uh, her water broke 2 hours before. And so that was our kid's way of just letting us know, um, we never sleep again. So we had to wake up 2 hours earlier. So Thomas wins, 10 weeks earlier. I've got a meme coming out probably in the next month or so, uh, about how men keep score.

Yeah.

And, uh, way to go, Thomas, you win.

You know what, you can have that win. I, I don't, I don't want my kids coming out there.

Yeah, you didn't have no 10 weeks early. That's— but I, I think that's common with, um, uh, multi, you know, twins and triplets and all that.

Yeah. So, you know, 40 weeks is full term for a singleton, and then they were calling us for 36 would be full term for twins.

Okay.

And so, you know, then we were still, uh, 6 and a half weeks earlier than that, um, which was unplanned, but they were totally fine and healthy. They just had to, you know, learn to breathe in the NICU and, you know, have the, uh, the ventilators and CPAPs and stuff like that to, to help them out in the beginning. And, um, then—

now, were you guys on, um, fertility treatments or anything like that, or was that just twins that just happened? Did they run in your family?

Nope, just a fluke first time around. So we had no idea to expect that, you know, or anything. So just so happened that, uh, that's how it went.

Well done.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and so then we thought, well, if we can— if it can happen once, it can happen again. So we saved everything, two of everything, for 5 years going into the second one. Then we find out it's a singleton and a girl, so we have nothing.

So, you know, Yeah, but now that Amber's nice and big, you can give me all that gross stuff and I'll use it. Yeah, I mean, I'll give it back to you.

I will say that's one thing, there's really no need to ever buy, um, yeah, like, so buy some stuff, but, uh, like kids clothes and toys and books and things like that, like buying them new is ridiculous. Yeah, there's no need. There is so much baby stuff out there and available that people, A, just want to get rid of.

Yeah.

And B, that are just selling cheap at garage sales and thrift stores. And yeah, we've got a— baby stuff is way oversupplied.

Yeah, we've got a couple friend of ours that, uh, excuse me, they're preparing to be foster parents, uh, and so they don't know, you know, babies to teenagers is what they could get. And they're, they're just about done with that, so they'll be foster parents here coming up soon. But the girl, she's, she's gone all out. She's like, she's found baby, toddler, kid, middle school had like all, all this stuff, and she got extra. So she's always, hey, I got a crib for you guys, hey, I got a baby toy, hey, I've got clothes, like, come pick it up. So we've got— I mean, we've got pretty much all the big stuff we need, and we haven't bought a single thing. Uh, so that's been super awesome.

Yeah, that's great. And for dads that don't have that friend that can supply them all, I mean, it's, it's everywhere. I mean, get on Craigslist, go to garage sales, go to thrift stores. It is so— paying $10 for like a onesie or a shirt for $8 is just ridiculous. You can get, you can get 20 for $10 at a garage. I mean, people just, they're trying to get rid of it.

Yeah, I think the, the crib she gave us, I'm pretty sure she got it for free because somebody was like, it's been in my garage for 6 years, I just want to get rid of it. I thought about building a crib, and I trust my building skills enough to build a crib. My wife didn't trust my building skills enough to build a crib. She's like, let's, let's get one. You can build it.

Yeah, that would have been cool though.

Yeah, so, so we do it again.

We, we use my crib that I used when I— like, my sister had it, I had it, my little brother had it. Um, so it's from the '80s, and when I, um— my mom keeps everything, and so we actually use that for all three of our kids.

That's awesome.

And when we got the first one, my wife didn't want it because it had, um— I forget what style it was called, like queen something style, but it has like a rail that slides down so you can get your kid out easier. And apparently in the '80s and '90s, that style, you know, killed some people. Um, and so it was like a death trap. Yeah. And so, uh, what we— I ended up just like drilling a couple holes through the wood and through some metal framework and locking that in so we never brought it up and down, just so, uh, I would be allowed to use it. Well, it was very clear if I didn't do something to secure that, that—

yeah, you're not—

we would not that would not be in there.

Yeah, yeah.

So yeah, we got a free crib that way. And then yeah, clothes are just— and baby clothes, like, they just, they don't get worn out. The babies just lay there.

Yeah, and they grow out of them so fast.

That's exactly worth the money. Now I will say the age group we're in right now has been more difficult because boys wear out pants and shorts like crazy, especially like the knee area. Yeah, it's insane. So we've actually struggled finding lately, uh, secondhand, uh, clothing. So we've been hit— every time we go into a Sam's Club, we end up buying like a pair or two of kids' pants, and you know, within, within a couple months, knees have holes in them. It's super irritating. I'm gonna go back like those '80s, '90s style patches and just start like ironing or sewing.

There you go. Ripped jeans are in. I mean I'm pretty sure I'm wearing some ripped jeans right now. They'll be fine. Yeah, yeah.

And maybe we can resell them for a profit.

Dude, you, you care, but I've seen like jeans with oil stains and grass stains go for like $200, $300. I'm like, you guys gotta be kidding me.

They make them like that on purpose now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I saw some sort of documentary or show on them, like they show the factory in Thailand and like they're just like destroying the jeans on purpose and then putting them up.

I might change the oil in your car, rub your hands on your pants, roll around in the grass, and then sell them for $200. I— you know what, I think I'm gonna start a business too. Just kidding. Yeah, go buy Walmart jeans and run around and roll around in the grass and change my oil.

Listen, if people are gonna pay, let them. All right, cool. Um, so your twins are 7? Yeah. I forgot if you said you had girls or boys.

2 boys.

And so, so sports, baseball, any of that stuff?

Not yet. We did a little, uh, mini sports camp with them a couple years ago to kind of introduce them to a few things. Um, but in Colorado it was so hard to be able to get them involved in something because it's cold 6 to 7 months out of the year. And so, you know, to, to do something like that, it's hard to keep something going. So we're really looking forward to that here now that we're in Florida. To be able to get that going. And you know, when you have twins, you know, there's nothing to do but to compare them to each other. And so growing up, as they started growing up, we thought, you know, our oldest, one minute older, was going to be the more athletic one and that the youngest was, you know, kind of more gravitating towards creative stuff, music, art, things like that. Well, that seems to be switching as they get older. Our youngest, Matthew, he can— he just wants to play football all the time. He found a basketball in the garage. We didn't even have a basketball hoop, but he's out there dribbling and, you know, pretending to shoot and, and stuff like that. And so I can't wait to get them into stuff. I don't know where they're gonna end up, but I'm looking forward to doing that. But, you know, we'll see how it goes. Our oldest, though, has the personality where if it doesn't come easy to him, he gives up just like that. And so, uh, you know, he's, he started kind of doing that recently with a few things, and I'm like, that's, that's okay if you don't like it, if you don't want to do that, but just because you're not good at it from the start doesn't mean you should give up. So there's two totally different personalities to work with in the same household. That's a very interesting situation to be dealing with right now.

Yeah. Oh yeah, I would think as a dad you treat that, um, at, you know, as if they weren't twins. Yeah, like these are your talents that we foster. Like, we're not trying to have you guys turn out to be exactly the same. We're not trying to have you turn out like how Dad was in school, right? Um, you know, what you're good at is what you're good at, and what your personality is is your personality. You don't have to act like your brother and vice versa. Yeah, I think it's very important that they clearly had— know that expectation from Mom and Dad is you are two completely separate people.

Absolutely, absolutely. That's vital. And You know, in the beginning we, we had them do a lot of things together and the same because we didn't— you know, you don't know as they start growing up what they're going to be into and what they're going to be good at, what they're going to like and things like that. And so now we're kind of starting to— that picture is getting a little more clear. And so we're able to kind of make that, make those decisions and, and decide like, okay, they don't have to do everything together. Would I like them to try everything once together? Sure. I think that that would be that would be great. You know, if they, they want to do soccer, okay, maybe they both try soccer, even if one of them doesn't want to the first time around. Then we switch the sport and do something else so that they can try basketball, and then we kind of land. That way they're exposed to a few things. You know, unfortunately with that, you're gonna get that competitive spirit, and you know, that can be a really negative thing for twins. I mean, I think it's good for brothers to be competitive, But with twins in the same age, you know, you don't have that capability to be like, you know, with, with, you know, your boys, you have 3 different ages. So it can, you can say, well, you know, you're not as good as your older brother at that yet, just because he's naturally bigger. He's been doing it longer. He's, he's older. He's learned more things. I can't do that with my boys. And so, uh, you know, it's, he's had one more minute to learn. Exactly. That's it. And so, uh, there's something to that. You just have to be sensitive and mindful about it. To make sure that, you know, you're not forcing them to do something, but also letting them know like, hey, you need to try your best. Even if you're not as good as him, that's okay. It doesn't matter. We're not comparing you to him. You know, we're not proud of you less because you're not as good as him or because he's maybe better at this one thing. We just want you to try it and find what you like. And that's okay. It doesn't matter. You know, there's going to be other kids on the team who are better than you and who are not as good as you. And so, you know, in terms of that skill, uh, you're trying to instill the—

instill those characteristics, work ethic and putting the effort forth. And, um, I would hope, you know, commitment. You know, you, you made a commitment to this team for the season. You're not quitting early. You're going to finish out the season. You'll never have to play it again, right? Um, you know, and whatever else. But yeah, I, I would— I would agree with you 100%. Um, it's probably be awkward if one of them is a star athlete and the other isn't quite as a star. Um, but hey, you're not identical people. So like, there's other 7-year-olds in the world that were, you know, born on the same time that are way better than your brother, who's really good. So you're entirely different people. Totally. Yeah, that is an interesting dynamic.

Yeah, it's, it's tricky.

Luckily one I don't have to deal with, right?

Yeah, it gets tricky to navigate sometimes.

Yeah, yeah. My wife, she always wanted— she always wanted what you guys have, twin boys and then a girl, um, which obviously now we're having a girl first instead of twin boys. So I'm like, well, I'm glad I don't have to deal with that because I, I wouldn't— I wouldn't know how, right? Like, I'm obviously, you know, you learn and you figure it out, but I think like just even looking at it from the outside in, I'm like, how do you— how do you separate that enough? Like, obviously, like me and my brother We're not even the same age, and yet we, we follow very similar life paths. We did same sports in high school, uh, you know, I went to— he went Navy, I went Army, but we did— we followed very similar things. I would imagine, like, if we were twins, it probably would have been even more so. Um, so, you know, kudos for you for seeing that and being able to separate that out and distinguish between them. I mean, I can't— I'm like, hey, what's up boys? Because I don't know which one's which. They helped me out.

Oh, so, so they're identical twins?

No, they're fraternal. Jonathan's just telling the difference, dude.

They look, they look identical. Like, there's totally tiny, tiny little differences. I think one time one of them was missing a tooth, so I was like, okay, cool, that's the one missing the tooth. I've got that figured out. And I had to like stare at them for a good— okay, your nose is a little bigger. But then, then COVID happened and I didn't see them for 6 months, so I was like, oh, that's true, you guys all look the same again.

Sorry, guys. Well, that's fair. You haven't seen him in a while.

Yeah, so, so, but whenever I get it right, I'm like, yes!

I mean, it's 50/50 odds. Don't be that proud of yourself.

Hey, but Uncle Jonathan's got to get it right.

Yeah, so, um, all y'all are in young stages, um, so there's no fun teen stories to talk about.

Not yet.

So this— yeah, we'll get— so I will say, like, the ages you're in, like, this bonding time from this infancy to, you know, 13, um, that's where I think a lot of, a lot of fathers have dropped the, the ball in the past, is they kind of sit there and say, you know, I'll get more involved when the kids are older because that's when they're more important, and that's when they want to go camping and do stuff with Dad. And, um, you know, they're easier to interact with because they're more adult-ish. And I think it's a critical mistake not to have that strong bond from the very beginning. So when you get to those, uh, those difficult teenage years, uh, you have the kind of relationship to where, you know, that girl can come to her dad and talk to him about awkward things. And I'm going to—

I'm going into it almost aggressively, uh, because I grew up in a single-parent home. So my mom did all the raising and stuff, and my dad, my dad was back in the picture around that age, around the 14 or 15 years. But at that point, I didn't want anything to do with him because, like, you weren't here, you know, up until this point. You can't tell me what I can and can't do or how I should do these things. So I'm, I'm concerned that I might be a little too aggressive on it, but I'm like, I want to be— I mean, I want to be in it, in all of it, because, because I know what it's like to have Well, and just keep—

and it's keeping that mindset of what do you want them to turn out to be? What do you want your daughter to be like when she's— when she's 20, 30, 40 years old? So, um, we, we want them to be self-sufficient. So, you know, we do have to foster an environment of some independence and freedom.

Yeah.

And, uh, yeah, I don't want to smother her. And you make your own choices and there's consequences for those choices. At the same time, you live in my house and you're going to follow my rules.

Yeah.

Um, and at the same time, well, those I might be mad at you, that doesn't mean I don't love you. Yeah, right. You know, there will never be a time that you cannot call me and say, Dad, I'm in trouble, come help me, and that I won't— no matter how pissed I am, no matter how stupid of a thing you did, that I won't come help you. Yeah.

Um, doesn't mean we won't be having a long discussion later, but I'm not just sitting in the jail cell a couple hours just to really let you sit on it, and then, you know, come pick you up.

Okay, so now we're getting into a totally different discussion. But, uh, I do think it's a critical mistake for parents to bail out their kids too soon. I, I think, I think kids need to sit there. And, and for mom and dad to panic and say, we got to scramble to, uh— and divorced parents will do this a lot— and to see who can get them out faster. Um, or if one parent wants them to sit in there to kind of learn their lesson. It's freaking county jail. They're not in prison. They're not going to get stabbed in the yard. Yeah. Um, but they are going to get to sit there and think for a little bit. Yeah, and to get them out too quick— I, I, I am a proponent of if your kid's going to do something that stupid or get caught in that kind of situation for being in the— whether it's wrong place, wrong time, um, you were in the wrong— you were hanging with the wrong crowd. You don't need to be out at 2 AM in the morning. So whatever it is, uh, yeah, I'm so— I am so okay with sitting in a cell for a little bit.

Yeah, my mom let me stay in county jail a couple nights. She was like, I'm not— no, I'm not gonna come pick you up till tomorrow. So no, I'm sleeping on the floor. And it worked, you know, it worked. I didn't go to prison.

Ideally, you foster an environment where that's not even a situation.

Yeah. Yeah.

Ideally, that would be winning. Yeah.

Yeah. Unfortunately, you still can't control their actions and decisions and their friends and who they're influenced, who they allow themselves to be influenced by. All you can do is, is teach them and then hopefully it sinks in. And when they're about to make that bad decision, oh wait, I remember Dad saying something about this. And, you know, maybe they get that check in their spirit about it.

And you can certainly influence them, uh, heavily. Yeah, I mean, you can certainly sit there and say, hey, you know, I had my own father did this to me, and this is the time we weren't getting along. I think I'd even moved out by then. He pulled me aside and just said, the people you're hanging around with, I don't want— I don't want that life for you. Like, do you see their life? Like, I don't want you in prison. I don't want you getting busted for drugs. I don't want, you know, I don't want any of, you know, you to be a problem with the law. And even though we had a contentious relationship, and I don't think I was living there at the time, like, those words still hit home. And I played it off as a 17-year-old would of, don't talk to me about this crap. Yeah, whatever. Um, you know, whatever I could say to get under his skin at the time. Um, that's still something that kind of stuck. And while I still kind of hung out with those people a little bit, I did kind of, uh, back off a little bit and rethink my trajectory. Um, and so I think that's certainly something that could be said, even if it's not going to be received well.

Yeah. So let me ask you something. Obviously now, different— similar topic, talking about the influence on the kids and all that stuff. Now you guys are obviously traveling right now and doing the promos or Are you guys doing— right, obviously COVID, homeschool— but did you guys do homeschool before then, or did you start this year and you're like, hey, now we're gonna do it? Or what kind of was the case? What do you think about it now?

We were already doing homeschool. Yeah, uh, Florida's got a huge homeschooling community, um, and so I know a lot of people when they think homeschool, they think kind of a weird family, um, you know, socially awkward is a concern. And I— and in Florida especially, we lived in St. Augustine, Florida, um, it's a It's a beach town. Uh, Florida in general has a very large homeschool community, and we just had a massive one. Um, and I, I swear our kids were probably 10 times more social than any public school, any private school kid.

Nice.

I mean, 10 times more social. Um, and, and because the homeschool groups are so big, so there wasn't a day they weren't going to the beach with, you know, 30 other boys that are homeschooled, or, or going on a nature trail with some dad, and they're learning about plants or insects. They, you know, I forget what that was, Wildlife Fridays or something like that. And they, they, you know, another homeschool dad did like basketball once a week where they would come in and they would, um, they would run basketball practices in the middle of the day.

Yeah.

Um, you know, and then all the other kids in the neighborhood come home and they tell us how, oh, they're not allowed to speak in, um, during lunch anymore because the principal said no more, it got too loud. So now they don't even have PE anymore in that school. But now the kids can't even talk during lunch.

What?

I'm like, okay, so, so you have to sit there in class for 8 hours, we get homeschooled done in 2 and a half hours, and you're not allowed to talk during lunch, and you're— you guys don't have PE anymore.

Yeah.

So you get no physical exertion, you get no social interactions, very limited social interaction.

Those kids are going to be weird.

But, but we're the weird ones.

Yeah. So yeah, and it's just—

and in Florida, you're not weird if you homeschool. Florida, it's, it's, it's a lot more common. Than I think a lot of other states.

Yeah, it's something that more and more I think we're starting to lean towards, just because, just because the way— I mean, obviously my values and our values as a family, I think, are, are, you know, different than something I would find in public school and private schooling. Even then, like, I don't want to go down that route. And talking about that influence, right, like, I want to be the biggest influence in my child's life. I want her mom, my wife, to be the biggest influence, you know, besides obviously our faith in the Lord. But, but like, I want to be they're teaching and, and spending time with them. So I think, I think more and more we're probably living, leaning towards that homeschool. So I just want to, you know, get you—

and you get, and you get involved in communities. Like, there's homeschool groups, and that's what I'm saying. Like, we were a member of so many of them that, yeah, they were insanely social.

Yeah.

And, and homeschool boys are, you know, they're not, um, at least the ones we hung out with, um, they're all— it's interesting, they're all very respectful. Like, they've been they've been raised well, but at the same time they're wild. Like, I mean, these are kids that'll catch snakes and climb trees, jump over fences, and, you know, God forbid we see an alligator in a pond, that poor alligator is going to be in for a scare.

Gator bites for lunch.

But at the same time, like, you take them into a setting with adults and they'll be respectful. And, yeah, you know, most of the time, obviously they're kids, there's times where, uh, you know, they don't do the right thing. But yeah, so there's a lot of bravery in those groups, a lot of confidence, a lot of, uh, uh, you know, I don't know what your podcast is about, but a lot of qualities you would probably, um, attribute to manliness, you know, as, you know, certainly a sense of adventure and accomplishment and challenges and, you know, outdoor life, things like that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And You know, just to tie into the homeschooling for a second before we jump to the manliness thing, uh, my, my wife was actually homeschooled, and, uh, in her later years of homeschooling, there were some hybrid options that she took part in where she was primarily homeschooled, but then she would go into a school, like a classroom setting, for like one subject or something like that. And so, um, so there's, you know, in those groups, there's, there's big benefits.

Yeah, so you can do that, you can do that in Florida as well, and you can still do their Bright Futures programs and things like that, and you can do all the extracurricular activities at public school. So, so I had quite a few, um, friends, uh, in high school that were homeschooled, but, and we played football together, we wrestled together, and it got to the point I, I was not a great example for high school. I passed barely. Um, yeah, well, so I think at one point my junior year I got pulled in. Uh, we had, we had like a 5 AM wrestling practice, and while I was in the showers I heard my name, you know, Townsend Russell reports to the principal's office. It was like 30 minutes before school started, and like they sat down with a bunch of my teachers, the guidance counselor, my father was there, and, uh, you know, they're like, so there's been like 140 days of school so far and you've been absent for 132 of them. 'But you're here at 5 AM for practices, and you're here after school for practices, and you're always there for 7th period weightlifting.' So, uh, that was a weird— that was a weird conversation. So I would go— so I would go to my homeschool friends' houses because, uh, you know, they would maybe start homeschool around 11, finish by 1. So I would go over there. I had one friend, uh, they were a farm family And they had like a picture-perfect life, like white picket fence, you know, like 6 kids, and you know, dad's a farmer, mom's a stay-at-home mom, like picture perfect. You go there, it's Leave It to Beaver, stacks of pancakes, bacon, sausage, eggs. And so, uh, me and my buddy Joe would go over there and we just feast on breakfast, then we go down to the beach with our friend, and then eventually we'd get to school.

Sounds like, sounds like a dream, man.

It was actually a lot of fun, uh, and we, we knew the school. Like, the, the trick back then— it's weird saying back then because I still feel very young, like it was recent, um— but as long as you had— as long as you were like, had a good relationship with the teachers, you could get away with this stuff.

Yeah.

So you had to like know the curriculum. You, you still had to like study on your own and, and be able to take the tests Yeah, but I would get zeros on attendance, zeros on homework, everyone. But I would show up for quizzes and I would show up for tests, and that pretty much got me through, which made me excel in college. When I got to college, I was like a 3.8 student because they don't care about attendance. There is no homework. You have your midterm and your final. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. And so it, so prepare me well for college. But yeah, I think I barely, I barely got through.

Well, see, and Liam, for me, I think I had the similar same experience, right? It was, at least from my experience in public school, was let's memorize it, learn it, memorization, pass the test, good to go. Uh, which is like, you're right, college, huge. Kids-wise, no, I want them to, I wanted to retain, I wanted to learn, I wanted to enjoy learning. Yeah, so, and we'll see.

Well, I mean, I went to public school as well, and it's the The whole entire public school system is based on memorize it, pass the test, so funding can go up for the school from the state. I mean, that's, that's the whole model, you know. I mean, yes, kids are getting some education, but you know, is it, is it— everything's a business. There's a business side of everything. If the school gets more money, they can do more things. You know, and so on.

Well, more than that, it's about moving a large amount of kids through the grades. And so that your top excellers, even with all the different AP and ACE programs, your top excellers, unless they are very self-motivated, the parents are involved, um, you know, they won't get pushed as hard as they could be, and they won't excel as fast as they could. Yeah, uh, you know, the lower ones, everything kind of gets scaled down. So, you know, even your mid-tier and your upper-tier, um, education-wise students, uh, You know, they're sitting around half the time because they can finish earlier, they already know the materials, or they're kind of daydreaming. Uh, and there's just so much wasted time, um, and pointless crap going on. So, uh, which I, you know, I, I'm not proposing any solution for that. I don't have one. Um, you know, our solution for our family was that, um, we went the private school route, and then we didn't even like that so much. So we started homeschooling. And so we— this all circles back, I guess. So we were already homeschooling, which made the decision to jump out and tour a lot easier because we didn't have to make that adjustment as well.

Yes, that's awesome.

Yeah, how do you like that for reconnecting the circle?

It's good, man. Yeah, I was like, I was— I don't know where we're going with this, but eventually we'll get to our destination. And then we made it right back and I was like, look It's good, it's good.

All right, so the podcast, um, what is it?

Yeah, I mean, I think— you mind if I take this one, Thomas?

Go for it.

I think for us, honestly, uh, when we, when we got— we were like, hey, let's put a podcast together. And, you know, we could have easily got put on a camera, get a couple microphones and just talk as guys and have fun, and that would have been well enough for us. But we figured, hey, we're going to be putting content out, let's let's provide something, something of use for somebody, something that's going to help somebody. So we put our heads together and we came to the conclusion that from our point of view, from our perspective, men, fathers, husbands, dads, brothers, men in general are lacking. And you can go as far as, you know, there's a war on boys and everybody's telling men that it's bad to be masculine and You could go that far under. You could say just in general, even you don't have to go that, that off base, and to see that we've, we've lost what it means to be, to be a boy, to be a man. Um, so we wanted, we wanted to speak into that and say, hey, here's, you know, here's what we've learned. We're obviously not perfect men. We don't know everything, but here's what we learned in our 30-plus years of life, 60-plus years, uh, together. Me being in the military, Thomas being in business, both of us being in in religion and fatherhood roles, husband roles, as friends, brothers, men. What can we share? What can we provide to young men that are coming up? And, you know, maybe it's a young man that's in the same position that I was in, that grew up without a dad, so doesn't really have that, that voice of, hey son, you know, you need to, you need to be respectful, you need to also stand up for what you believe in, all that stuff. Like, maybe they don't have that. Or, you know, maybe it's a single mom raising boys and she's like, I don't I don't know what to teach them because I'm, I'm a mom. Like, I can do the job, but there's things that, that a dad has to speak into and that a man has to speak into. So, so that's kind of, that's kind of what, what birthed, what gave birth to this idea. Like, cool, let's, let's share what we know and learn through the process. And, you know, hopefully we make, we make better men. We make better men for the upcoming generation. Um, I'm of the opinion that a lot of the problems we see in, in our country, in the in the world, from racial problems and whatever, whatever you want to say. Like, I, I really truly believe that a lot of that stems from a lack of good men. So we decided to— let's speak into that, and hopefully we can make a difference, make an impact, and, and change somebody's life. Yeah.

And, and we went the route of, you know, when we, when we were really looking into it, manliness was the, the key for us. We didn't really know how, how to get there. And then we kind of stumbled across, you know, we looked up the definition and we stumbled across the definition of it. And, uh, you know, I think the definition of manly is to be brave and strong, and that's basically it. End of definition. And so we were like, that's where Redefining came in is we were like, there's, there's more qualities and characteristics for a man to be manly in our opinion that we're missing.. And so that's, that's kind of where we honed in and decided that, you know, we need to redefine this term because those qualities, those characteristics are missing from a lot of men in society today. And like Jonathan said, we're not perfect in any of those.

Um, just ask our wives and they'll tell you.

Yeah, if we can, if we can get better and people will just join us for the ride, then, you know, we're trying to make ourselves better. And if people want to join for the ride and and they can get something out of it too, then that's, that's what we're trying to get done.

Yeah. So, uh, I guess what's the, uh, what's the company line? What's the, uh, the definition, the, the new definition of manliness?

So I've actually got that pulled up. Let me just put on my old man reading glasses because I can't see.

I just gotta memorize that, dude.

I know it's a long one, and I wrote it out myself too, but I was like, I gotta get And, you know, we kind of shifted away from manliness to be manly is to be a good man, right? And we say, you know, to be manly is defined as being brave and strong. But to us, to be manly is to be a good man. To be a good man requires balance within ourselves and values that push us to go further and to go and be better. A good man is one who is brave, who can stand against the fears and dangers in life and say, I will not be moved. I will not be shaken. A good man is one who is loyal to more than just himself. Who is honest with others, and who has the integrity to do the right thing when no one is looking. A good man treats himself and others with the respect that every person deserves and has compassion for those who are suffering. A good man has the strength to be self-disciplined. He knows when to stop and think before acting or speaking, and he has the wisdom to live not out of impulse but out of structure. A good man is strong, strong enough to protect himself and those he cares about, but also strong enough to face emotional distress as well as offer support to those who need it. A good man is one who fulfills all of these values to their fullest extent— rather, is not one who fulfills all these to the fullest extent, rather one who strives every day to be better today than he was yesterday. So that's kind of our thing, right? Be better, be better today than you were yesterday.

Well, I see why you haven't memorized it.

Yeah, you know, it got long and we should probably compress that down, but I was like, ah, there's, there's so much that that we wanted to touch on.

So yeah, we came out of it with, uh, 9 kind of core values of manliness: bravery, compassion, loyalty, strength, honesty, integrity, respect, wisdom, and self-discipline. And so we're kind of hitting on each of those values in different episodes of the podcast, as long as— as well as talking about other topics, just, you know, in the world, things that are happening and and how being manly kind of ties into, you know, real life things. But we're really diving in deep to each one of those values and, and why we think it's necessary, a necessary part of, uh, manliness.

Yeah, uh, so I don't have that written down, um, so I agree with all of it. I think it's lacking a couple things, uh, and more where I see where you guys are going with it, but that's almost a great answer for, um, you know, when someone says man up, what does that mean? You know, and almost your definition fits it perfectly, um, because it usually has a lot to do with honor and respect and integrity, um, not so much, you know, uh, you know, sexual conquest or, or, uh, right. You know, do you even have man parts? So, um, uh, so the only thing I would think would be lacking out of that was the direction of some of the things that feed a man's soul, um, you know, that sense of adventure, um, that, uh, that need to overcome challenges, uh accomplishment, things like those. Um, yeah, that's the only angle I didn't see in there, unless—

well, yeah, no, I think you're absolutely right. I think man needs conquest, a man needs something to strive for, you know.

Uh, who was it?

Jordan Peterson talks about how responsibility is what gives young men, uh, purpose, value, having something to be responsible for, having a weight to carry. I think for us, we kind of put that under bravery and self-discipline. You have to be brave to take on the conquest. You have to have the bravery to step out of your comfort zone, have the bravery, uh, to take on the weight that you, you don't know if you can handle it or not until you take it on. And then you have the self-discipline to know, okay, I need to fix myself, to work on myself, to better myself. Um, so we kind of tied it into those two things instead of making it a separate thing.

Yeah, because I, I just feel like, you know, when we do talk about what men don't do anymore more. And it's obviously some men, or, or what's gotten lost a little bit is, is some of that, just that camping, that, um, hunting, fishing, getting outdoors. And because it kind of hits those things.

Yeah, right.

I will say, like, for me, business hit those things.

Yeah.

Um, and so like now I'm, I'm craving those things even though we're outside all the time. But yeah, uh, like I want to get a piece of iron ore and smelt it down and make a knife. Like, that just sounds really cool, and like, that would feed me internally.

When I think it just comes back down to that, to the having a, having a responsibility, having a purpose, having something to strive for, right? Uh, and yeah, you know, you're right, hiking, hunting, like that, you're, you're— it's you versus nature. Like, that's a great example. But like, for me, woodworking, like taking a piece of wood and shaping it, molding it, and saying, this is gonna— I'm gonna create something that's gonna gonna fit my purposes and my needs. There's— out of nothing, I'm going to create something. I think starting a business, right, the same thing. Like, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna venture my capital, I'm gonna put my name out there, I'm gonna build something from the ground up. Uh, and I think those are areas where a lot of times we can— we were distracted. Like, well, you know, we're not— we're not hunter-gatherers anymore, so we don't have to go out and hunt, we don't have to go out and provide. So, so we've lost that, and yet there's so many different areas that we can still use that and still apply that as men. And I think sometimes we just don't see it all.

I think accomplishment makes us feel good.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And, and, you know, to kind of— we were kind of laughing when you said that outdoor thing is missing because Jonathan's definitely that more.

Come on, man.

I'm not so much, you know. I, I'm not a camper. I'm not, you know, a fan of outdoor stuff. Uh, I, I'm more of a, a glamper if I'm gonna go. Like, give me some air conditioning, a bed to sleep in, you know, I'll be good to go.

But there's nothing wrong with it. That's a good start.

Hey, and so, you know, that's— but that's kind of where we wanted to come at this from, is that you can come from any different walk of life, you can be any personality, and you can still have these values through the, the life that you're walking through, the things that you enjoy. I mean, you know, uh, like Jonathan just said, you know, from woodworking to starting a business. Like, Jonathan makes something out of nothing with wood. I can make something out of nothing with someone's personal finances. And that's two totally different ends of the spectrum. But, you know, you're, you're working through some of these same values to make that happen. You don't have to be that outdoorsy guy, and you don't have to be that, uh, well, you know, you mentioned Leave It to Beaver earlier. I can't remember what the dad's name was in that show, but Uh, Clive?

No. Walter? Maybe Mr. Beaver.

There you go.

Yeah, but, but you don't also have to be that Mr. Beaver who is just, you know, going to work the 9 to 5, just being the breadwinner, you know, that's it. I mean, or you can be and you can still kind of fulfill these, but, you know, you can, you can kind of hit these from any different area that you're at, and that's, that's kind of where we wanted to come from.

Yeah, I know you're trying to hit an important point, but I think it's Clyde or Clive. Ward. It's Ward.

Yeah, it's Ward. Good job, good job.

I'm glad Mr. Beaver was Ward.

Yes, Ward Beaver, guys. You should have known that.

Good, dude. Great memory. I'm like, I can't believe— I, I need to eat more fish oil apparently because I can't remember.

Uh, so do you have any theories or any studies into what is causing the lack of that manliness?

Yeah, so obviously we have some theories from, from relationships we've had, you know, with other young men in our lives. Especially, you know, me as a pastor, I have a lot of other young men that I speak into and pour into and kind of see their struggle. And whether they're in high school or college, or even some of them are out in the workforce already, um, and a lot of them, from the conversations I've had, have felt said it's bad to be, you know, uh, just a breadwinner, and then, you know, you can't open a door for the girl anymore, or it's rude to call her first, or just all these things that they feel like, I, I can't be what I naturally want to be. Um, so I saw that, and I, I just—

are, are you seeing people are really getting called out on chivalry type things?

Yeah, I know a couple guys that have, um, that night. I know one guy specifically went out on a date, and, you know, he opened up the door for a girl and she was like, what are you doing? Like, I can, I can open my own door. Never mind, she ended up canceling the date. I'm like, wow, that's, that's nuts. Like, I didn't—

what age group is that?

He's 21, 19 to 21, somewhere like at freshman college. Um, and so she can't—

she canceled the date because he opened the door for her?

Yeah. Now granted, we're in Denver, Colorado, Boulder. Like, some of that might have to do with it as well. And who knows, you know, different cultures, different places. And, and I never, I never dealt with that personally. Like, I've, I've come from, you know, like I said, a father's home, but my mom always encouraged me to be chivalrous, to be hardworking, to do all that stuff. And then obviously when I was in the military, it was very much a man's game, um, coming out into leadership. So I've always— I've never really dealt with, with that personally, but I'd seen it in other young men's lives.

Um, sure, but it's— I mean, it's strange. I just don't understand the, um, the thought process behind it. Like, of course you can get your own door. I know that, but like, you're a strong person. I— my wife can get her own door. Yeah, but I just think so highly of you, I wanted to do this nice thing for you. This was kindness. This wasn't disrespect. This wasn't me thinking you're inferior. This is me being insanely respectful and kindful that I went out of my way to to, to show you some sort of appreciation.

Yeah, one, and obviously that makes sense to us because we all probably think the same way of our wives and very highly of our wives. Like, man, I wanna, I wanna lay down the red carpet for you just because I respect you that much. But I think especially now we've gotten to a point where there's a big push for being equal and not having equality. I think there's, I think there's difference. I think we're equal in value I don't think we're equal in roles. I don't think we're equal in responsibilities. I think there's things that shift, um, and we're kind of— we're starting to see that a little bit more, especially on the younger generation. So, you know, I, I saw that and I wanted— we wanted to speak into that and kind of help these guys say like, no, it's good. It's good to want to fight. It's good to be a little aggressive. Like, you're a man. You don't fight for any stupid reason, but be willing to defend yourself. You're going to defend your family. Be willing to, to stand up for your beliefs. Be willing to say No, I'm, I'm right. Like, I, I, I, I have this core belief in me and I'm not going to change it, change it because you disagree with it.

So I, I'm going back to— I'm kind of floored by that, uh, chivalry thing. Like, I just, I want to know the cause. Like, I know that's the effect, but what is— and I don't know how many people this has happened to or if this is a trend that's growing, um, but like what is— what, what are girls being taught, or what are guys being taught, or whatever, or what is happening that makes them feel like somebody opening a door for you is, is—

I'm assuming disrespectful, like you're not treating me well, like I can't do that myself or something. And you know, and honestly, I don't, I don't have the answer for that. I think that's something that we're learning and diving into. I, I have my theories, like I think I think we've seen a growth of, of people growing up in fatherless homes over the last 20 years, and I think that might have something to do with it, where girls aren't— they're not being raised by their fathers, or at least, you know, the last 20-plus years they weren't. So they don't have a healthy relationship with men. Or, you know, we've seen a rise in divorces, so there might be that, some of that, where maybe they're living with mom more.

So it, it almost seems like it's a lack of self-esteem or a lack of confidence. That that would bother you.

Yeah, that, that could very well be the case as well. But then, you know, when it, when it affects— when that lack of self-esteem affects, you know, other, other relationships and it spreads, I think that's when you have a problem. And that's what we're trying to do, like, hey, nip that in the bud. Be confident in who you are, be confident in what you know and what you value, um, and stand up for it.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's what I would tell that 21-year-old boy. She didn't do anything wrong. In fact, you need to be able to sit there and explain to her, yeah, this isn't me—

not—

this isn't me disrespecting you, this is me trying to be insanely nice to you. Yeah, yeah. Otherwise, you drive and pay for my door.

So turn this around. Yeah, redefine.

Yeah, so I've heard I, you know, I haven't studied it too deep, but I've definitely heard some, some different theories. Um, you know, the shift in career path for men from going to farming to, uh, you know, getting to the 1950s, '60s, '70s, where, um, a lot of dads— the, the economy shifted to more of a sales, less man— less factory work, less, uh, farm work, more sales. And so a lot of dads were traveling more, they were away from the home more. So mom has more influence on, on the upbringing of the children. Dad has less influence. A lot of talk about— I just lost my train of thought. Because I know some of it went back to farming as well, but that whole culture moving into cities where the school systems were having more of effect on raising children going into the same era of— and the teaching field being predominantly women, heavy in women teachers. So now we have moms being a heavy influence at home, dads not being there. So even when the kids are out of home, now it's mostly female teachers guiding. And so it's— and, and, you know, women and men are always going to disagree on certain things. And we are two different styles. Women, um, that's dangerous discussion, uh, but to where it's a much more feminine upbringing of those traditional values where they kind of— a lot of girls just don't understand what, what really feeds men at the heart. They don't understand why we pick up sticks and hit other— and hit trees. They don't understand why we pick up rocks and throw them at things, right? Um, it's, it's It's weird to them. Um, and, and so, you know, that was some of the influence of teachers, uh, of so many kids being raised so much time into the school system, uh, that's predominantly female. The homes are becoming predominantly female, and so the male influence and masculinity was being filtered out that way.

So there's a couple other theories I've heard, I just can't think of them I have a theory that I'm, that I'm working on, and I'd like to get some insight into and, you know, figure it out. Uh, it kind of ties back to what we talked a little bit earlier about men wanting conquest, men wanting achievement, with men wanting a challenge. And, you know, I'm thinking through the generations, you know, we've had past generations, you had World War I, World War II, Vietnam War, like all these big conflicts. And then our generation and while we had, you know, the War on Terror, it was different. It wasn't for a big, you know, the world is uniting against one common enemy. Um, it was some— there was very much disagreement on we should be there, we shouldn't be there, we're after the wrong people. So there was, there was a lack of that. And I feel like our generation specifically, you know, millennials and down, haven't had a big, a big conquest event in their life. We haven't had a big something. Not saying that, you know, we all need a big war, but I feel like previous generations had something to unite them, something to strive for, something greater than themselves to reach and to fight for, and we haven't had that. So I wonder if, you know, some of— maybe there's some of that there. And again, it's just the theory I'm working through, but—

well, World War II was probably the last of that. Um, Korea War, I don't think was that way. Vietnam certainly was. Vietnam was incredibly— Vietnam was probably really the downfall of military, um, uniting the country. Insanely divided the country. I mean, those soldiers were coming home and getting spit on. I mean, they were, they were really trashed. I mean, a lot of them that went over there didn't even want to go over there. You know, it was the draft, whereas World War II, World War I, you're volunteering and you're disappointed when you don't get to go.

Yeah.

You know, we had 9/11. That certainly unified the country. You know, everyone came together on that. But yeah, War is certainly different now. Yeah, you know, it's not lining up and taking out a clear enemy. Yeah, it's, um, it's almost like what America was when America was fighting the revolution of like, you got these pockets of people in the woods that just jump out and shoot and then run away. Yeah, so, you know, it's— they're within us. Yeah, um, and so we're fighting, we're fighting a much different war than we have in the past, and that's the way it's going to be probably forever.

Yeah, till AI takes over and there's a whole other—

yeah, till it's all robots fighting. We'll all be dead by then. Yeah. Um, yeah, I agree, there's nothing unifying. I, I think a lot of that is, um, uh, what great societies and, you know, world-leading civilizations— it just happens to them, they get super complacent. Um, they focus on the wrong things. They, they start caring so much about fashion and entertainment, um, sports, um, finances, um, things that, that generally don't matter. Yeah. Um, and they get succumbed to it and they just turn a blind eye to everything else. And that, that's how great— that's how, you know, I, I am certainly not a a history professor by any means, but I know the basic stuff to know. That's how all the, the superpowers have fallen. Um, you know, they, they, they start, uh, bickering about stupid things and they take their eye off the ball. Yeah. And then someone else takes over.

Yeah. Um, yeah, I don't know.

Yeah, I don't know how to tie that into parenting, but yeah, certainly You know, I guess all kids— yeah, all kids haven't grown up. If you're 18 right now, you were born in what, 2003? So yeah, that's pre-9/11 sentiment.

Uh, Gen Z, Gen X, all these guys, they've grown up without, without that.

So they've got COVID.

Yeah, and even that's, that's not a great— that's not a great uniter either.

That's the best they've got right now.

That's a great divider. Kind of thing.

Yeah, yeah, that's been sad. Um, oh, laws. Uh, uh, you know, basically an attack on the family. So laws have changed where they really start— you know, a couple things. Culture, you know, shifts. I don't know them very greatly, but I know there have been laws in the past that really took dads out, especially Black dads, um, out of the home. Um, and certainly political policies that have encouraged breaking up of families, that have financially incentivized single households, um, uh, financially incentivized having kids out of wedlock. And so, you know, those things all just continue to contribute. So on top of the economy shifting and dads being out of the house, moms raising, on top of kids going through the school system that's predominantly female You know, this is where we're losing a lot of our masculinity, you know, and then we've got some political policies and laws going back decades, a long time ago. I mean, probably still continuing, I just don't know them well enough. That takes dads out of houses, puts them in jail, and incentivizes families to break up. So those are my theories that I'm sticking with, that I've actually, that I've heard over some point, but I haven't dug super deep into them.

Yeah, well, again, I think, I mean, there's some, there's obviously some basis to that. Obviously I'm a, I'm a result of some of that. My father wasn't in prison or anything, but definitely like growing up in a, in a— my mom was a big influence and she was the main influence for 13, 15 years-ish. Um, so I definitely had a lot of, of men questions getting to the age. I'm like, what, what am I supposed to do? What, like, I don't even know, like even the basic function of a man. Like, I don't even know how to— like, what is a husband supposed to do? It's just— I'm just supposed to work and, and that's it.

Was there, was there an uncle or grandfather or neighbor that, that filled that role?

No, no, there's my grandma. It was my mom and my grandma, uh, and I don't think I really had— I don't think I had an influence, a male influence that really impacted me up until high school. And I had a band teacher, which was funny because they did band and PE because would do, like he would run like the marching band and stuff. So it was a smaller school, but he was kind of really big influence into that. And like, speaking, it's like, you know, wanting to be physically active and get out of the house and, and explore new things and just the role of a man. And I think that, that obviously kind of set me up. And then going into the military, that had a big influence on my life there as well. Um, so now it's just a matter of like, okay, cool, I— who do I know that was in the same situation? And What can I, what can I, where can I, where can I be that influence?

So military will do that. I mean, military gives you that physical challenges, mental challenges, structure, you know, clear pecking order. You follow orders, you also give orders, you know, an expectation for how things are done and how that provides, I guess, provides continuity. In life. Uh, but I'm sure you could—

discipline, structure, I mean, all of that. I think, I mean, for me, especially at that age, you know, 18 to 24, I think is when I got out. Um, I think that age was very formative. Um, and then, you know, and there's some stuff that I, that probably was— I don't want to use the word toxic, but there were some things that I brought out that didn't really translate well to the civilian life, to to, to work life, to, you know, life separated. But no, I learned and grew out of that as well.

And now, yeah, when you get, when you get into the business world, cursing and, and making fun of their mother and how stupid they are and every physical thing that's wrong with them is really not the best motivational tool in the civilian world. My best friends are some in the parenting world.

Yeah. So I'm gonna have to— I've, I've learned to curb that. It's not good on a you know, church stage either. So that's— yeah.

So, yeah, so because I actually like, I like a lot of military things being brought into the family, you know, structure, discipline, you know, the pecking order, continuity in the day, expectations that are clear and set out. But there is an extreme, and I'm sure some military families do that, to where, you know, they're raising their family like they are the drill sergeant. Yeah, and that is— you, you don't raise children, um, yeah, by crushing them all the time. Like, there needs to be freedom in it because they're kids. Like, now when you're dealing with an 18-year-old that's wild and free, you can do this. Yeah, because you're also going to give them some of that freedom and independence as they earn it. Um, but yeah, just to constantly crush and destroy, um, a child is not going to work out well.

Good to know.

Well, you already knew that.

Yes.

Yeah, I think going back to what you said about the, the laws kind of being formatted in a way to kind of break up families— I mean, just look at divorced families in general. Um, you know, obviously there's two ends of the spectrum. One end where, you know, just didn't work out, parents just worked really well together to still continue to raise the kid. And the other end of the spectrum where it's just a complete disaster. But I think a large majority that kind of funneled down the middle is, uh, you know, if you just look at it from a court perspective, if nothing's really majorly wrong with either side, no one's, you know, clearly addicted to crack on either side, and that I think naturally the courts are just going to favor the, the women.

Hold on a second. I got right after clearly addicted to crack on either side, you really broke up. That's not government censorship, I don't know what it is.

So, you know, if, if you— if there's neither parent is, you know, clearly, you know, addicted to crack or anything majorly wrong on one side, I think the court naturally is going to favor the woman and, the mom in that scenario. And so that's where the child support comes in. And just what you were talking about, it makes it financially impactful and beneficial for the mom to, um, you know, raise the kids and be the one who collects the child support. And it really ends up hurting the dad. I've seen multiple scenarios of this where the dad is just out there, you know, working his hands to the bone just to have, you know, a ton of his paycheck taken away to be sent to the mom to do who knows what with the money. Now, any dad in their right mind is going to say, okay, as long as that's going to them to help the kids, fine, that's, that's all that matters. But if, you know, there are doing that, that creates—

there are many, many states to where the laws, um, regarding custody crush dad. Yeah. Yeah, so Florida, so is Texas. Um, I, I think most of the states are in that way, um, to where custody is barely, um, influence is minimal. Yeah. Uh, you know, really they just look at that for the paycheck, and it heavily favors mom. Um, not that mom's not important, um, right? You know, it's a sad situation either way. Um, and that's what we tell— I mean, we tell dads that are divorced, like, your time's already cut in half. Like minimum, you're already cut in half. So the ability to do everything possible, which is gonna mean humbling yourself, to spend every possible second with your kid. It's gonna be tempting because you have all this new freedom to kind of live, you know, sometimes live the single life and sometimes live the father life. You know, I've said it quite a few times to where you almost need to humble yourself and be so kind to mom that you're like the default babysitter. That, you know, let her live the single life and you become the babysitter so you get even more time, more influence with your kids. Um, and, and I know there's a ton of contentious divorces. Um, very few of them are, are tolerable, and some of them that start nice don't finish nice.

Yeah.

Um, well, I, I think it gets disgusting.

I think you can circle that right back to the, the manliness. You know, boys growing up in divorced homes with the, the single moms. Now, there are obviously certain scenarios where mom's just doing their best, dad dies, something happens, you know, dad leaves the picture, you know, just completely abandons them. There are certain extremes, but in a situation like that where dad wants to be around, that's kind of, I think, what we're trying to pitch with the manliness. Like, you have to— if we can catch any of these kids that have kind of come up in that, you know, setting where it's not necessarily their fault, but they haven't had that influence or haven't been allowed that influence. If we can catch some of them early, and, you know, our whole goal is, like Jonathan said, be better today than we were yesterday. But if we can do something today that impacts, you know, say one thing that impacts one man's life, and that ripple effect we don't know how far that's going to go.

Sure.

So if the ripple effect goes, that's what we're trying to do. We're just trying to be the splash in the water that sets off the ripple effect. And, you know, they can change it. They can, they can go change the world, you know.

Well, and what you said about— what did you said about dads wanting to be there? Like, Dad making that effort to try to make sure he's at every recital, make sure he's at every practice, even the ones that he's not scheduled for, to never saying no, to not being given outs by Mom of, hey, you don't to take her this weekend. She's got a birthday party with a friend anyway, don't worry about it. And just, you know, to be involved as much as humanly possible, that's gonna be recognized by the kid long-term. Maybe not immediately, 5-year-old, 6-year-old, 7-year-old aren't gonna even notice that. But long-term when it matters, they are gonna look back one day and say, you know, my dad had every other weekend or every weekend, and we really didn't do that. You know, I was allowed just to go to my friend's house. And when that's a 16-year-old girl or boy, you know, trying to figure out who they are in the world, those things are going to matter.

Yeah.

And I've heard plenty of stories about dads getting, you know, quote-unquote tricked, where mom gave them those kind of outs where you don't need to take him this time, don't worry about it, I know you need to pick up some overtime, or, you know, she's got a friend's birthday party anyway, and I think it's more important for that dad to forget work. You forget the, I'll take you to the birthday party, or you know what, spending time with me is more important than the birthday party. You don't like it now, but you will in 10 years.

Well, I think something super cool that we've noticed on the Redefining Madness podcast is the opposite end of that spectrum, that we've seen 30 to 40% of our audience is female. It's, it's moms and, and wives saying like, hey, I need my son to learn this, whether, you know, whether that's not in the picture, or, or, you know, maybe that's not at the place they wanted to be. Like, hey, here's some stuff that I think would be great for you to pass on to your kids, which was surprising. Yeah, I mean, my husband has stepped up and learned this stuff too, which was super surprising for us because we're like, it's, it's geared towards men, uh, and yet we had a lot of women come in like that are watching and tuning in and stuff. And Uh, so that was, that was super cool.

We've got 8%, I think 8 or 9% female followers, um, and every once in a while they jump into a conversation and you're just like, you shouldn't be in this conversation. They'll get jumped on too in the comment feed. Like, obviously, yeah, um, obviously you don't have the same thought process. I do have a question for you, uh, for both of you, because I'm interested in your opinion of this. I'm of the theory that you shouldn't air your spouse's dirty laundry out, and my wife has never done that with me. She talks to her friends, you know, so talk about things I don't do great. I've never told a friend anything that I don't like about my spouse. Like, I don't trash-talk her ever. I just don't think— no, hey, I don't think it's anybody's business, and I want her to be held in a very positive light. Um, uh, that's just— that's how I think it should be.

God, I think you're 100% right.

But, but that was— no, so here's her argument, because we were talking about this a couple weeks ago, is she doesn't think you should hide the, the lack of that being spoken is causing problems down the line for other people. Like, they're not speaking out about— they think everyone's relationship's, you know, perfect or just fine, and really there's struggle behind there that's not being talked about. And, and they don't realize that they're not alone in these things, that the problems they're having in their relationship. Other people are having too, even though like our relationship's great, like 99% perfect. We have these 1% of things that are, that are very difficult in our life.

Yeah.

Um, and that— so even, you know, Ken and Barbie, the perfect couple, are not, um, the perfect couple, are not perfect. You know, they, they, they fight too.

Well, and I think, I mean, I think it's a double-sided coin, right? It's two sides of the same coin. On the one hand, yeah, you don't want to go off complaining to your boys about your wife whatever, not doing something right, or you don't want your wife going and telling her girls how— what terrible father you are, what's her husband like. I'm a big believer on you, you reprimand in private, you praise in public. Like, obviously, reprimand, reprimand my wife, but like just in leadership in general, like if I'm gonna, if I'm gonna coach you, reprimand you, I'm doing that in private because that's nobody else's business, and I'm gonna put you in public because I want people to see you being praised and being lifted up. Now I also believe that community is super important. You need to have other friends, other couples that you're walking in life with, that you're sharing life with, that, that are as close as family can get, right? Whether they're friends or they are family. And those are the people that you can, that you can, you know, rely on, and, and they can hold you accountable, you hold them accountable, and you have that relationship. But again, that's not with everybody. That's with special people, certain people that you trust in your life. Like, I can go to Thompson— hey man, I'm going through something you know, my wife and I are going through something, he can come to me because we have that relationship. I'm not, you know, I just met you, I'm not going to go to you with that. Hey, you know, hey, here's my wife's doing that, like, that's just not going to happen. So I think having a good balance on, on who you share with, who you don't share with, um, and, and at the end of the day, always, you know, always praise in public, recommend private work on some of that stuff. And not everything has to be brought out. So I do think that there's a fine tension, but I think they can coexist.

Yeah, I think the setting is vitally important to that scenario. You know, like Jonathan said, that's a prime example. If, you know, we both have a relationship where he could come to me and ask for advice or vice versa, and I'm inviting him in. But for me to go to him and be like, "Man, I've got to tell you what Julie just did," like, and just kind of mouth off. Disrespectful to her. That's, you know, but if I'm like, hey, here's the scenario, I know I did something wrong, I feel like she did something wrong, what do you think? Like, the, the tone and the way you're coming about it, I think, can be very different. You can come at it disrespectful, or you can come out of it trying to learn and grow.

So there's a difference between seeking counsel and advice and just whining?

Yeah, it was it. I think Teddy Roosevelt said, you know, bringing, bringing forth solutions— bringing forth problems without solutions is just whining. And that's, that's just all it is. And again, I think it's my responsibility as a friend. Like, if Thomas comes, like, I'm his friend and I'm his wife's friends. Like, we're, we're all friends. And, you know, you can't believe what my wife is. And like, I'm not— we're not— don't talk to me about that. Don't come complain to me about your wife. Like, yeah, if you have a problem, let's talk about that. If you just want to complain and moan, do that. Do that on your own time, man.

I'm too busy to be listening to that right now anyway, so What's the most, um, have there been any complicated situations that you guys have come across? And don't name names or anything, um, were you glad you weren't in that situation on a spousal level, um, that would be worth talking about right now? I feel like in churches there's always a good drama story.

There's always something. But I mean, I think that, right, that's, that's a perfect example because there should be, there should be drama, there should be conflict, because it's not a place for perfect people. It's a place where people come out.

There's a reason, there's a reason people are in church.

Yeah, they, they need the help, they need the counsel. So I'm okay with that. I'm okay with church not, not being a place for saints. Um, uh, let me see, I think of a good one.

What was— so when I started to learn what happens like behind the scenes meetings of churches, um, it messed me up a little bit. I didn't realize there was like— because like even my own church, like there's stupidity and drama going on in those. They're not called board meetings, but they're basically board meetings. Like, you know, well, I've heard some of the things that go on in there, I'm just like, my jaw drops. I'm like, that is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

Um, I mean, I think that happens in any environment, right? Anybody you put you put people in it and you're gonna have clashing— People just not in our church? Yeah. No, no, good thing.

Um, um, so let me throw this scenario to you. Um, so you have a friend, you find out his wife has been having an affair. Do you tell your friend?

I think you talk to the wife first. I think you talk to the wife first, say, listen, I found this out. I know it's true because I have proof, I have witnesses, whatever the case may be. You need to come clean. Like, you need to— one, you need to repent with the Lord and get all that back. But you need to talk to your husband. You need to tell him what happened, what's going on. And if you don't, I will. But I think you have to give the spouse the option first. Like, it's not going to help him— hey man, I just found out your wife has been sleeping around with some other dude. Like, that first— there's gonna be doubt. Like, no way, that's not true. There's going to be questioning. That's those friction in the relationship. Like, it's not— it's not my place. It's my place to say, you need to tell him, you need to be honest with him, and you've got 48 hours, or else then I'm going to—

yeah, tell them or else.

Yeah. So yeah, I've actually heard— not, not from an affair perspective, but I've heard of— you know, since we both worked in the church world, I heard that there was another church that if the husband or one of the spouses that worked there was getting in trouble or was going to get laid off or was getting a corrective action plan, they would be forced to have their spouse sign the document and bring it back to force them to talk about it so that they would know because they had laid too many people off where then the husband or the the wife would come storming into the office like, what? I didn't know anything about this. Why did my, you know, spouse get fired? You know, you know, what's the deal? So they kind of changed that mindset, kind of along the lines of what Jonathan's saying. Like, you've got the opportunity to go talk, and if you don't, this is happening anyway. Um, but you know, you need to go home and sign this. So they're involved along the way, kind of forcing that communication. And you know, when you went back to the, uh, topic earlier have we come across anything like that? I've come across, across, you know, communication issues where, you know, spouses are just not communicating, and, uh, that is— that's what's really the root cause. They won't say how they feel in a certain situation. They're both just—

I feel like that's 99.9% of marital conflict, is there's, there is something wrong in the communication. Sure.

Yeah, yeah. But they— what I think what I'm trying to say is when there is no communication, you know, when they're just not willing to share. You know, obviously my wife and I argue because we're miscommunicating. We're having a problem. We're having a communication issue.

I said something the wrong way.

I did something wrong. Yeah, but you know, we all know that. But you know, I'm saying when, when neither of them are willing to communicate and there's things being hidden over here and there's feelings that just being bottled up over here and there's just no communication and it's just totally surface.

Recipe for disaster.

Those are major, major issues.

So I already know how Thomas feels, and I, I know Jonathan's gonna say too, but I still want to throw the scenario out there. Um, so when we first got married, we were teenagers. Uh, we had this, uh, neighbor family, um, much older. They were like 20, 30 years older than us. You know, the husband was talking to me one day saying, hey, just like you're getting married, just so you know, something I do that you need to do— don't tell your wife about it. Uh, you open up a separate account for a different bank and just, just slide some money over there every once in a while so you can build it up just in case. And, uh, so I went back and told my wife, uh, or not my wife, I guess it would have been my fiancée at the time, or girlfriend, whatever it was. Um, I told her about him. I'm like, you won't believe what he just told me. And she's like, Are you serious? Because his wife just told me the same thing about 3 weeks ago. Of course I'm like, but you didn't tell me, I told you.

Oh, did she have a separate account? Did you ask her about it?

I remember when, uh, one of those weird moments, you know, sometimes just like you have these standalone moments that stand out in your youth. One of them was I got— I was like watching TV at like 11 o'clock at night, my dad came in I was like 9 or 10 maybe, and my stepmom and sister were gone. Like, they'd gone out to Florida on vacation or something, some conference. And just like a midnight run, he's like, hey, you want to go to the store and get candy? Like, I've been asking for candy for my entire life at the checkout. I've always been told no. Yeah, let's go. And we went down to, um, uh, the CVS store, you know, some drugstore like 10 minutes away, and just got like 3 or 4 big bags of candy. And, uh, he told me then, he's like, you know, don't tell, uh, don't— my stepmom at the time, you know, don't tell her about this. This is coming out of my secret account. It was only like, what, $15 worth of candy or something like that? And, you know, we went back and gorged like a midnight candy run. Just never happened again. Just one of those things that stands out. Um, but again, it was a secret cash account. That, uh, yeah, they also divorced a few years later.

Yeah, communication and finances, right? Communication and finance is like the two top reasons for divorce.

So transparency, yep, yep.

Yeah, and I mean, and again, if you know, we can get into the whole financing— like, my wife—

so what is your opinion on, um, having secret, um, accounts?

No, don't have— see, don't have secret accounts. You can have sep— you can have separate accounts But you should, you should know about them. Like, so my wife and I have a joint account where both our paychecks come in there, all of our bills are paid up from there. But then we have separate accounts which we call, you know, our spending accounts. And, you know, every month we'll split whatever, you know, $500, $200, whatever we have left over. Like, hey, here's, you know, that's your spending money, my spending money. She saves it, she'll save it for months, and then, you know, I don't know where she'll have a grand to spend on herself wherever she wants. And I spend mine, you know, in the weekend, and I never have more, never more have more than, you know, $200 in my pocket. Um, but we know about it, we tell each other.

So all your family stuff is paid out of one? You're not running the house split? You're not covering mortgage? She's not doing groceries, that kind of stuff?

No, it's all— it's all together. Because I hate— I've always hated to be in a position where it's like, you know, I'm paying for the house, you're paying for groceries, this is my house, you're just living here.

Like, there's a lot of married couples that do that, and I don't understand it. Yeah, I mean, they do it, and you know, for some of them it works for them. It's weird.

Yeah.

I was talking, I think, because I think my sister does this, um, she was telling me how they do it, uh, and like she does one thing and he covers the other things. I was like, it feels like, well, no, I was like, Hannah, like his piece is like $70 a month, yours is like $600. Oh, have you not figured out this isn't fair?

Yeah, then there's that, uh, you know, and, and I think, you know, for a lot of people money can be such finicky thing, right? Because people don't talk about it, or we're not open about it, or whatever. Like, man, we've been in different positions. We've had, you know, we've been times in life we've, you know, we've had a good amount of money. We've been times in life where we've had no money. There's been times where my wife has made more than I have, you know, I've made more than her, like, and, and we've always talked about it. We've always been open about it. We've always just— here it is, this is ours. It's worked so far.

I agree. Thomas, we already know what you're gonna say.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Don't, don't have a secret account. Separate accounts is also a bad idea because, I mean, from what you just said, that example you gave about your sister, that's a perfect example. And take it a step farther and say the person who's supposed to be paying for the house suddenly decides, you know what, I think I'd like to take up gambling. And all of a sudden you're getting evicted and you didn't know because you thought they were paying the house payment or the rent or whatever. It's just, I mean, there's, there's there's no clarity or transparency, you know, with separation. I mean, Jonathan, what you guys are doing is, is different. That's your, like, money that you guys have decided, this is our personal money, I'm gonna spend it how I want, you're gonna spend it how you want.

Yeah, that's spending cash.

Yeah, that's spending cash, that's, that's fine. But totally separate, dividing it up like roommates, that's, that's bad, dude.

I mean, that's spot on. That was, you know, we actually went through that exact scenario you said, you know, 7, 8 years ago. We were freshly married you know, moves to a place. I was in charge of all the finances. That was my job, to pay the rent, to do all that stuff. And we lived in Albuquerque, New Mexico, next door to a casino. I'm like, oh, you know what, I have $600 for rent, but I could go double it. And I didn't. Uh, and, you know, and it was a whole thing.

Did you triple it?

Yeah, I wish. That would have been fantastic. No, I, uh, how do you— what do you call when you see— I zeroed it. I lost all of And then some.

Yeah, what was the game?

A blackjack. Ah, yeah, yeah. And, and because I had walked in, I think the week before, with $20, $20, and walked out with like $500. So I was like, easy, if I can do that with $20, imagine what I could do with $600.

So you walked in with $600, uh, what was that, how much per hand?

Uh, I think I started off at $25.

Oh, so that was a long, painful journey.

Yep, it took me a long time to dig. I'm like, no, I can, I can, I can win it back. I can dig myself back, so I'm gonna double up on $100 now. And yeah, that did not work at all. So then, yeah, so then we were that same scenario, like, now I can't pay rent. And, and I mean, it was a tough time in our marriage, but we learned from that. Right now we're like, okay, we're gonna talk about finances. I'm not stepping for the casino because I've got an addictive personality. Like, it's just, it's not gonna work.

So, all right, we're not, we're not gonna dive into an addiction subject because that'll add 3 hours.

Yeah, for reals.

Is there any other thing you wanted to make sure that got touched on or you're hoping will get discussed going into this?

I mean, I think we touched on even more so than I thought we're going to, which is fantastic. Yeah, all kinds of topics.

I think as long as, you know, we have a way for people to try and find us too, then, then that's, that's great.

Yeah. Well, so, uh, tell people how to get in touch with you.

So, uh, if you're looking for the podcast you can search us, uh, @redefiningmanlinesspodcast on social media, uh, or on any podcast network. Just search Redefining Manliness, um, and, and you'll be able to find us there. If you want, uh, help on the personal finance side, you can find me @tmhfinancialcoaching on social media. And, uh, I, I do all my stuff remote. I started it during COVID so everything I do is remote.

So If you have a secret account, call Thomas, he'll help you kind of maneuver that back in.

Yeah.

All right, cool. All right, Jonathan and Thomas from Redefining Manliness, appreciate you coming on. This is the 100% Dad Podcast, interviews with dads. Have an awesome day.

Thanks.