S3:E7 What is Masculinity with The Fallible Man Brent Dowlen

100% Dad Podcast interviews with dads. We got Brent Dowling, is it?

That is, very good.

Perfect. At The Fallible Man, uh, tell us a little bit about yourself. What are the basics? How long you been married, how many kids you have, and what The Fallible Man is?

Oh, you want the whole ball of wax. Um, I've been married for— it will be 21 years this April. Uh, yeah, 21 years this April. And, uh, with my wife, we've been together for 23 and a half, but married for 21 now. We got married— I was 21 years old when she married me, she was 19. We were kids, man.

Nice.

And, uh, we have two beautiful little girls. I have a 10-year-old Abby and a 7-year-old named Henley.

Oh, you guys were married for a while before you had kids?

We were, uh, I was 31 or 32 when I was born.

So yeah, like a decade just, just the two of you.

Yeah, yeah. I, uh, I come from a— my father was a minister and I'm a former youth minister, and so I just— my experience with my dad counseling, uh, doing marriage counseling and growing up with my dad doing that kind of stuff is that most couples— one of the biggest mistakes, one of the top divorce rates is that age group in the 40s right after the kids leave home. And it's because people rush into kids and don't take a couple years to really learn who they are as a couple. And my wife and I both very felt very strongly about that initially, like, okay, we want 3 to 5 years where it's just us to establish who we are, to establish our relationship, what life is going to look like for us. And then we'll talk about kids. But we both wanted kids, and then that turned into, well, we're taking time to get to know each other too, we can't afford to eat, so let's wait a little longer. You know, the typical young couple things, hot dogs and Top Ramen. And then that turned into more procrastination, procrastination of just like, well, one day we'll, we'll make enough money where we can afford to have kids, right? And all of a sudden, 10 years has passed by and we're like, huh, I'm not sure we intended to wait this long. Uh, so we didn't really like actively try, we just finally stopped trying to prevent a pregnancy and just left in God's hands after that. So I have two beautiful little girls that are just the light of my world and the cause behind a lot of what I do. And then, uh, yeah, here we are. 21 years later, still trying to figure it out.

So, so it's great advice, the whole get to know each other for a few years. Um, that, that is something that not a lot of people, um, live by or, or even told. So, and it's something for our audience, they're probably, uh, we're a little late on that. You know, most dads are usually married, but this is a great thing. Um, you know, we hit back a lot on our platform is, you know, how are we raising the next generation? This is a great thing to teach your sons and your daughters, right?

Uh, as a former youth minister, I actually used to do a lot of marital counseling for young couples, and that, that's— I mean, and like, my wife's got younger siblings. I told all of them, it's like, wait, wait. She's, she's the oldest. I was the baby in my family. And so I told all of her siblings, they were getting married, it's like, wait at least 3 years.

Just— so I think, so I think it's, you know, if you're a youth pastor, it's even biblical. Um, I can't quite remember where, for it says in the Bible, wait one year pretty much before you do anything. It's like before you move, buy a house, you're not allowed to go off to war in those days for the first year of your marriage. Uh, that is a time of getting to know, uh, your spouse and enjoying each other. Um, and, uh, yeah, so it has a foundation in that. And then you mentioned the you know, the divorce rate in the '40s. So I've read those same studies where it's usually around the, uh, the 7-year mark is a high— is a peak in divorces, right? Where people are just, you know, the things that were cute when I first met you now irritate the hell out of me. Um, and then, uh, and then you're starting to have kids and things like that where pressures increase. And then that 25-year mark where kids are leaving the house And then you're looking at that person, and where the mistake— the additional mistake on that, I believe, is, uh, you spent all that time— in some families, life is all about the kids, kids, kids, kids, kids, kids— but you weren't taking care of the marriage. You weren't putting your wife first. You weren't making sure that relationship is evolving. And then you're 20 years later and you're looking at each other and you're two entirely different people because your life has been about something else other than you two.

Oh yeah, you got a stranger in the house, man. Once the kids leave, it's like our whole life has been for 20 years about these young children, right? Raising them, protecting them, teaching them. God, just making sure they live through the first couple years, right? And, uh, then all of a sudden you're— you've got no kids at home and it's like, I kind of remember you. Yeah, I don't remember what we were like when we didn't have children.

Sure. And it's a grave mistake. I mean, you've gotta, um, you've got to put the effort into that marriage even when there's kids in the house.

Yeah, that's one of the things I, uh, I try and share out in The Foul Old Man is, uh, I, I talk about tending your marriage as a priority even over your kids, right? I actually set my daughter straight, my 10-year-old straight one day. I was like, look, your mom is my first priority, period, dot, period. That's it. You and your sister take two because she was here before you. And when you leave and go off on your life one day, she'll be here after you and it will just be us. Yeah, your mom is number one.

Yeah, I once used the term, uh, gosh, I think it was some sort of meme where it's basically like, uh, you know, I can get rid of you and make another one that looks just like you. Your mom's here to stay or something like that. And the comment section, there's a certain segment of it knew what I was saying. The other, the other section was very disappointed.

You got lit up.

Um, there's something else you just said I wanted to comment on. Uh, oh, the waiting for kids so you have money. Uh, which, I mean, you're a man of faith. I mean, I'm sure you, you, you're, you're right there of you're going down the path that God led you down, and everything's the way it's supposed to be. If someone had come to me and been like, hey, you know, we're 25, we don't think we want to have— we're holding back on having kids right now because we're not sure we can afford it. Um, you know, I, I appreciate that because we— I think we have enough kids. Uh, you know, we have households that are just completely dependent on welfare and they just keep popping out kids. But I've always been the, the thought that you really shouldn't You know, in a sense, kids don't cost that much. You know, it's some formula, some diapers, like they're not massively expensive. It is a cost to there, but, um, and there's a lot of assistance nowadays. I'm not that you want to be on the assistance, but, um, they're not super expensive. Uh, now if you're struggling and you have your like 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th kid, we're talking a different story, but I've, I've always been, I've always been of the mind of like, maybe don't not, don't not have a family because of finances. Like you can get there on finance and that might even be the motivation you need to maybe excel in your career a little bit more, uh, to make the income.

So we, we actually waited longer than we intended on and, and that was part of it. It was just fear. Uh, I'll flat out admit that we actually waited longer than we intended because first it was get to know each other, then it was we can't afford to like feed ourselves. But then after a while, like, I was making decent money. We were making a living. I mean, we weren't rich by any means, but we were making a living. And it's like, oh, you know, why are we not having family at this point? And we realized that we just kind of got into a habit and started living our life, and it was more fear than anything, honestly, because like I was raised very much, and so was my wife, to take care of our own responsibilities, right? We were very independent, uh, and, you know, I, I know a lot of families who have lots of kids and no income coming in. I see how hard it is on the marriage. I've seen how hard it is to struggle as a parent, right? Because you're constantly stressed out. And so part of it just became fear after a while, honestly. Um, it's like, well, we're doing better, but— and then it was like, yeah, but when's enough, right? My wife and I actually sat down and had a straight-up conversation about, yeah, but how much is enough? At what income level do we say we trust God and we're just going to go forward with our family, or we're, we're hiding because we don't trust that God's going to take care of it?

So there was a study done It was by one of those big banks or investment firms like Charles Schwab or something like that. Um, I want to say it was about a decade ago, but they asked that question of an entire spectrum of income levels and, uh, success and wealth. They said, when, like, when will you— and I think their terminology was, when will you have made it? Like, when will you have been like, this, this is what I've wanted all along? And it was almost always double wherever they're at right now. If they were making $200,000 a year, it was about the $400,000 a year mark. If they were making $30,000 a year, it was $60,000 a year. $61,200. Um, and so it was almost, almost entirely across the board double what's right now, just more.

It's amazing where we just kind of reach into this mat— well, uh, uh, this number, right?

Yeah. And then when you get there when the $200 person gets to $400, it's not, we've made it, it's $800.

Yeah, yeah.

So I mean, it's, it's a, it's a lack of, I guess, contentment, or not realizing it maybe.

But well, I mean, I know with most of us, right, as my income went up, I, I wasn't taught anything about money growing up. My dad— and I don't blame my dad because my dad didn't know jack about money. Like, he was the worst money manager I've ever seen. My dad was horrible with money. It's something I am trying to correct in my life and teach my children at this point. But, you know, I wasn't taught anything about money. And so it's like, as my income went up, well, so did my debt ratio. So it's like, yeah, I know on paper I'm making more money, but my living is only getting so much better, and there's still only so much left after I pay the bills and Um, I, I blame honestly just the lack of financial education that's being taught to the next generations.

Is that— I feel like that happens a lot with, um, with church folk is there's a lot of— I don't want to say this wrong, but this is kind of the, the feeling I get of we don't really have to worry about the income, we don't have to worry about this and that because it's in God's hands. And he will provide, he'll take care of us, and what is meant to be will become. And so that's almost used as an excuse to be reckless.

I don't know that it was so much that— I mean, so my income was entire— or I should say my dad's income was entirely based on whatever the church was paying him, right? Uh, my father worked for a non-denominational Christian church called the Churches of Christ. They're all independent. And so it was— I mean, I'm not sure my dad ever made more than $40,000 a year in his lifetime, like ever. Uh, we, we still alive? No, my father passed, uh, in May this last month. Um, but I don't think he ever made more than $40,000 a year in his entire life, no matter where we lived. And we lived like in the Seattle area at one point, so like if my grandmother hadn't lived with us, honestly, like, financially, we, we wouldn't have eaten part of the time. Um, and so it wasn't that. He came from, like, his parents were very frugal. Uh, my grandfather was a high school principal and history teacher. My grandmother was a charge nurse. And so, and they were raised during the Great Depression and World War II, and so they were very frugal with their money and their spending. Um, so I'm not sure it was connected to that so much, but I can't remember— I remember one, one class in all of high school and all of my years in school, public school, right, that we actually talked legitimately about money. One class where they actually taught me something that was relevant to balancing my finances, and that was after I went to a private school for my senior year. That I paid for. But other than that, I think I had like one quarter where we had a substitute who was big into the stock market, and so he taught us the basic principles of the stock market for math. But it was only because we had a substitute teacher who liked the stock market. Otherwise, yeah, I had like one semester in a private school that taught me like how to balance a checkbook.

Yeah, yeah. Luckily I got introduced into that in my family, um, There, I'm trying to think. High school, I had an economics class, and I remember we like pretend played the stock market, but I don't remember much about personal finance. And I, I think it's weird, like, people who talk about that, I mean, almost everyone is in unison of agreement of why don't they teach this real-world thing in schools right now? Better question, and more that I'm online with, is I don't think schools need to raise kids Why the hell are parents not teaching their kids this?

Because we've been taught to trust the schools to do it. We made a big change this year after, after the whole— that shall not be named. We, uh, after a half a year plus of the kids being at school and homeschooling basically from the public schools, this year we actually moved our kids to public, uh, to homeschooling.

Okay.

And I—

what curriculum do you guys use?

We use, uh, Abeka.

Okay.

Um, my wife actually went to a private school when she was in elementary school, and they used— they taught with Abeka there years ago. And the— since last September, my kids being in this, my kids are light years ahead of their classmates already. Um, they're behind for Abeka because they were in public school for the first several years, but they are light years ahead of their former classmates now.

I, I've been pushing out more and more, uh, content about schools and homeschool, and I'm, I've been a little bit more vocal on it of, uh, of how effective homeschool is now. Um, it's really, it's head and shoulders above of their peers in public school, um, and way more social, which is usually the reason people are thinking of not doing it. They're afraid of social awkwardness. Now, I don't know what it's like in Washington, but in Florida there's a massive homeschool community. I mean, these kids stay busier and do more stuff in a quarter than I did my entire life, ages 1 through— ages, you know, grades 1 through, uh, 12. I mean, it's, it's insane how active and involved they are. And how much time is not wasted where they actually get to go out and do stuff, um, instead of just sitting in classrooms waiting for people to catch up or waiting for the, uh, the bell to ring or waiting for this and that.

Well, that was part of the problem is my, uh, 10-year-old has my, some of my habits. She has been in advanced classes since kindergarten and, and there's only so many advanced classes in elementary school, right? So at first grade, she was already doing the, you know, third grade math and stuff like that. And my wife and I saw it coming. It's like, oh gosh, she's going to be just like you. And I was, I was horrible in school, not because I couldn't do it. I actually had— probably should not say this for recording sake, but I had like 6 people who did all my homework. I didn't, I didn't pay them to, I didn't force them to, I wasn't a bully. But I had like 6 friends who did all my homework because I just wouldn't do it. I could walk into class and take the test and pass it and walk out of the class, not pay attention.

Um, so I did that, but I, I never did the homework and I never cared. I just took zeros on homework. I took zeros on attendance. My last 2 years of school, I barely stepped foot in there. I just— I got the curriculum on day 1, or what do they call it? Not— they call it curriculum itinerary. Syllabus on day one. I would be like, all right, test day, test day, test day, got it. That's, that's when I would be there. Um, and that was it.

I, I went and listened, but I listened the first time he said it, or she said it, and then sat there for a week and a half while they said it 100 more times.

You know, so you were in Washington?

Uh, I schooled all over. Uh, my father was a mission domestic missionary.

Got it.

And so I've, I've lived in Florida and Texas and Virginia, Oklahoma, and Missouri.

Well, I was in St. Augustine, Florida, so we, we just wouldn't go and we would just go to the beach all day. I mean, it's legitimately what I did for 2 years. And then, yeah, I had to show up at, so 7th period, the last class of the day was, uh, weightlifting. Mm-hmm. And weightlifting. 7th period was only varsity football players, so I had to be there. So I just had to be there by like 2 o'clock, and then, you know, did weightlifting or film study, whatever it was that day, and then, uh, uh, had practice. Rinse and repeat. Yep. I think I graduated like a 2.5. I didn't have any glandular or anything when I graduated, but I think it was even close to like falling below 2.0 or anything like that. But it was a joke. I mean, there was It's so easy to game that system.

I, I graduated from somewhere I've never been to. So what? We, we moved between my junior and senior year. I went to high school in Wyoming.

Okay.

And we moved between my junior and senior year, and I went to enroll in the new public school in Missouri where we moved to and found out I had like a credit and a half left to graduate. Like, I stacked my early years of high school. By my junior year, I was only at school 3 hours a day.

Oh geez.

Yeah, I was a TA in a 4th grade classroom the first part of the day, and I was on work study the last half the day. So I had like 3 hours of classes and that was it. And so I stacked my— because I had no intention of being there my senior year. And then I got there and they're like, oh, we don't do homeschooling in Missouri.

I—

so I was like, well, I can just take a class. And they're like, no, you either take a full day all year are half a day all year if you find a job we approve of. And I told my mom, I was like, look, I can homeschool and be done by Christmas. My mom said, well, you got to pay for it then. Uh, so I went to a private school, and I mean, I knocked out my first semester in a week and worked a full-time job in construction. And then halfway through the year, they sold out to a school, a Christian school in somewhere in Mississippi. Well, okay, they just moved me to that school, right? The problem is it was a Christian school, so I had a backlog of 4 years worth of religious classes, uh, or requirements for that school that I had to make up my second semester senior year on top of the 2 or 3 credits. Because I had 1.5 by Missouri standard, I had to get like 4 more credits by their standards.

Did they force that, or did they just grandfather you into the previous school's requirements?

They took— and no, all the previous school, anybody who got moved over just had to take the new school's requirements. So I had to pick up more classes, and I had to do all the religious classes for 4 years. Fun. I mean, they had stuff— my dad had been a minister for 30-some-odd years at that point, and they had like an Old Testament survey course that my dad was struggling to help me with because they picked every absurd little one-off mention in the entirety of the Old Testament It's funny, this person who was in this person's lineage one time in the whole Bible. Who was this person?

I get so bored. I get so bored when I read those sections. It's like, son of blah blah, son of blah blah, son of blah blah, son of blah blah, son of blah blah. I'm like, ah, skip, skip, skip, skip, skip, skip, skip.

Yeah, it's— so yeah, I graduated from, I think it's Coisco, Mississippi. Or Kosiko, or I, I can't pronounce it. It's a really weird spelling.

I got— I, so I had wrestling practice, and then we got to get to the Fallible Man. I had wrestling practice, uh, it was like 5:00 AM wrestling practice, then I had football practice at the end. So I was at wrestling practice, uh, sometime in my junior year, so it's tail end of football season or after football season. And, uh, I was taking a shower, uh, because after practice, and I heard over the PA system, no one's in school yet. I mean, you know, no one's even like— the lines aren't even forming yet. I hear the announcement call that I need to go to the principal's office. Townsend Russell, principal's office, blah blah blah. And, uh, they had formed an intervention in there, like all my teachers, the guidance counselor, the principal, the deans, and my father, who is— I think he was the wrestling coach, uh, or the assistant wrestling coach. Um, and they were like, okay, there have been like, I don't know, 170 days of school and you have been absent for 151 of them. Like, how is this possible? So like, the teachers were kind of in trouble for not, uh, you know, for somehow passing me along. And it was a— it was just a very funny moment for me, uh, less so for everybody else. Um, it was one of those moments the teachers also stood up for me because my dad was like, you know what, he's gamed the system, he's figured you guys out, I'm moving him schools, he's going to the rival school, Pedro. And one of the teachers was, uh, smart enough to speak up and was like, that's not going to do anything. I mean, obviously, like, you can tell Townsend's reaction, it's going to piss him off. Um, but, uh, you know, he's a smart kid, he's gonna figure that system out too. I mean, just because it's a new school doesn't mean everything's gonna fall in line all of a sudden.

Race against the clock at that point.

Yeah. Um, but, you know, my grades were decent. I had, like, I mean, you know, Cs, Ds, couple Bs. You know, an A in weightlifting. Um, so, you know, I wasn't in danger of like failing or not being eligible for sports or anything like that. Um, I just didn't go because it was boring.

Yeah, exactly.

Uh, all right, Fallible Man. So what is the Fallible Man? Is, uh, no, you know, I have another question before that because I don't want to forget about it. Um, youth— you were a youth pastor or you still are a youth pastor?

I was several years ago.

Okay, was that in your 20s when you were struggling to make ends meet?

Uh, that was one of the points, yeah. I was, uh, 24.

I've always been curious—

paid ministry.

I've always been curious why, because I, I feel like I've talked to a few youth pastors in my life and they're always in that situation. I feel like— I don't know this, but I feel like they're very, very underpaid. Always.

It depends on the church you're at, I'm guessing. Um, like I said, I was a youth pastor in the Churches of Christ. Like I said, they're independent there's no like head body or anything. So whatever that church can afford is what they pay. So if you work at a big church, you do— you have a better chance of surviving. If you work for a small church like I did, yeah, I mean, they officially hired me part-time, um, and then said, well, get a part-time job. I was like, yeah, okay, you know, I've been working a full-time job and spending 40 hours a week doing youth ministry at the church I was at anyway. Where I was part of a youth ministry team. And, uh, so I took the job, and I mean, I was doing 60 hours a week with the kids, getting paid for 20 hours. Yeah. So there was no getting a second job. I had one for a little while, and it just— yeah, that, that didn't work because I was doing the after-school program in the public school system, and I did not jive well with the— this is how we're doing this. This is, this is dumb. I thought you wanted the kids to learn something while they were here. Uh, so that didn't last long, but I ended up doing like 60 hours a week. But I mean, I had kids— I've always— there's always the core group of kids in a youth group that's just, you know, their parents go to church there, or they've been there most of their lives. And then you have the fringe kids, and I was that youth minister. I had one kid who lived on the streets. Um, like, he'd come to my house and take showers, sleep in my house every now and then on cold nights, but he was 17 living on the streets. I actually had to remove him from the group because he started dealing drugs to make money. And it's like, man, I love you and I'll still— I'm here to talk to you, but I can't have you at group stuff because they just can't have you bring that into youth group.

Um, peddle some potato chips or candy bars, right?

I had one couple who got pregnant as teenagers, and so I, I worked with them all the way up through them getting married. They, they wanted to get married, they wanted to keep the baby, and so like, I, I'm still friends with them.

And how'd that story work out? Are they still together?

They are. Their kids are teenagers now. They have 3 kids, and they're a healthy, thriving young family.

That's a rare story.

Right. And there, there was a lot of handholding the first couple years. Um, I, I stood in front of the church when they got pregnant and I said, look, this is what's gonna happen and this is what you're gonna do as a church. You're gonna embrace these young kids. They want to hold on to this baby. They want to make it right. They want to get married eventually, just not rush because of the baby. And, but they wanna take responsibility for it and you're going to love them and you're gonna help them and you're gonna support them. They are great.

What a great thing to do for them. Uh, so I always felt like, like, if my kids get in that situation, which I hope they don't, uh, but if one of my boys gets a girl pregnant, it always— I feel like I would react that way of like, listen, this was a stupid thing you did. I warned you about this stuff. This is not in line with our family values. But you know, that doesn't mean I don't love you and I'm not going to love this grandkid. And we're not going to help you. So I'm disappointed in you, certainly, but, you know, at this point it is what it is. I still love you and we're moving forward.

They, they had to tell me, right, which was hilarious because so I'm at church one day and her mom walks over because she was— had grown up in the church. I'd known her since she was a baby, actually, and he was the boyfriend who came to church with her. And so her mom walks over one day and is like, you need to talk to the kids now. And I looked over behind me and I saw them sitting on separate pews, like separate rows. And I walked over and they looked like they were waiting to be executed. And so I sat down on the back of the pew in front of them, facing them. I said, so you're pregnant? Where do we go from here? And they're like, oh, Mom told you?

No, it's obvious.

Yeah, I wasn't born yesterday, so yes, I know what's going on. They're like, you're not going to yell at us? I assume your mom did that. This is why you look this way. So the question is, where do we go from here, right? Because you already made the choices. Now what's important is what choices are we making from here. And so, yeah, no, that was, uh, that was a very happy story. But, uh, that's impressive that, you know, 20 years later they're still together. And I actually left the ministry partially because I felt like a hypocrite, right? I kept telling kids in class, it's like, God wants you to prioritize your family. As a husband in your household, God wants you to prioritize your family. Full-time job while I'm working 20 hours a week, or getting paid for 20 hours a week. And without her support, I mean, we would have never would have survived.

Sure.

Okay, I feel like a total hypocrite, and I was volunteering 40 hours a week without getting paid while working a full-time job.

So were you talking to the church about that? Were you sitting there saying, hey, you hired me for 20, I'm working 40, so like at some point I either need to go home at 20 and leave this incomplete, or You guys need a bag.

They were in a tailspin, um, they were infighting among the leadership, and we actually had a split in the church. And so between two of the leadership of the church, and it split the congregation. And so we lost half the income, which then led to them creating a finance committee who then regulated everything. Uh, but ultimately, actually, I, I lost my job because I pissed off a parent.

Who has probably the best thing that could happen to you, to be honest.

Part of— partially because I, uh, I— he was one of the leaders of the church. But after his daughter called him out for misquoting the Bible, like, my job was done. It's like, well, I told you I teach Bible. That's what I will teach your children. So don't misquote the Bible.

Yeah. You can't, uh, can't be too disappointed when you lose the job that you work, uh, 60 hours for but pays you 20. That's, that's used— that's probably a good thing in hindsight.

In hindsight, it probably was. Um, I still, I still do some youth ministry work. I, I still help run— I'm a co-director on an event, youth event, once a year. But my kids have taken front and center. The church I'm at now asked me if I wanted to volunteer and help with youth ministry, and it's like I, I've got a full-time job and I'm building a business and I've got 2 kids. It's not happening.

So what, so what do you do now?

Um, I'm an IT worker.

Okay, what does that mean?

Yeah, yeah, that's why I get paid well. Nobody knows. Um, I work in data center operations.

Okay, so you keep data centers up?

Yes, I, I work at a large data center keeping servers up.

Cool. Um, and you're doing The Fallible Man. And what is The Fallible Man?

One of these days I think I'm gonna figure out exactly how to answer this question, but I'm not entirely—

I feel the same way when people come up to me off the streets, uh, or up on campgrounds like, hey, what is this? What is 100% Dad? And I usually tell them it's a mobile hot dog stand, and then you'd be surprised how many people leave me.

The Fallible Man, um, started very differently than it is now, but it all boils down to after so many years of experiences with teenagers, uh, both the girls and the boys, right? Seeing, working with the boys, listening to girls get their hearts broken. I have 7 nieces and I look at the guys they've dated and I mean, some of them are just not adequate. And it's not that the kid didn't try, it's they didn't have positive male role models in their life, so they, they don't understand basic things that I would relate to just being a male, right? Some people would say being manly, but just simple things, right? My nieces can change tires. They shouldn't have to on a date because their boyfriend can't. Right. I mean, that may be a little chauvinistic, but it started there, right? I started seeing— and this is like, well, you know, I have two daughters, but what can I do? Because if they're this way already, right, all these young men without positive male role models and like our schools here are begging to get men to come in and like read to the younger grades and stuff like that because they recognize the fact that there is a lack of positive male role models in the homes. And so I started thinking about what, what can I do? What, what can I do about this? Because my children are little now, so what can I do to help fix this? Because one day some little boy is going to come calling, right? And so I wanted to create something to start men mentoring men to some extent. To start sharing wisdom and knowledge and experience with young men who don't have that, right? They tell you if you want to get— like, if you want to be successful financially, you hang out with people who talk about investing and about making money and about starting businesses, right? If you want to be a good businessman, you hang out and talk to people who are in that world. Well, if you want to be a healthy male, right? A man, so to speak. How do you, how do you have that conversation if you don't have anybody to have it with? Who do you talk to about that? I had a conversation actually with a UPS driver the other day at work. Um, he asked about a shirt I was wearing because I wear all my own merchandise. And so we started talking, and this young man's got to be maybe 24, right? He works for UPS, like not part-time, like he's a full-time UPS driver. Good job. Yeah. And we started talking and he started asking me about what I was doing with it. When we started talking about side hustles, and he was so excited to have somebody have a conversation about starting a side hustle and developing himself. He told me the saddest thing. He said, my father told me the other day he's proud of me. I was like, that's awesome, man. He's like, Yeah, but he's not proud of me. He's proud that I haven't lost this job. Yeah, I've kept this job, what he considers a real job now, for 3 years. And he's proud of the fact that I'm still employed in a real job that real people do for a living. This kid, this kid's already flipping shoes on eBay, right? He's buying rare runs of shoes at, you know, $150 to $250 a pair, but he's flipping them online for $600 to $700 a pair sometimes. Yeah, he's making money doing this.

That shoe industry is crazy.

It is. His dad doesn't care. His dad thinks it's stupid. He's actually making an income on this. Not enough to replace his UPS job, but he's making headway on that even, right?

Right.

It's a pretty good take. But he was so excited to find somebody to talk to because none of his friends want to get better. None of his friends are talking about self-improvement or personal development or growth. And his dad apparently is very disconnected. Uh, I'm sure there's a better term for that, right? Uh, absentee, even though he's in the home. As far as his son's development, right, he's met his dad's requirements. He grew up, he went to school, he didn't go to college, but he got a real job. That's it. His dad's done. I did my part. And so his dad has no interest in this personal growth journey and the fact he's trying to build a business and everything else. And so I started The Fallible Man to start having a place where men could share. And right— I mean, right now it's me. Every now and then I got a friend or two, and I've had some great guests on. I've got a couple friends who pop on every now and then to help me do a video. But it's about men mentoring men and encouraging men to be just a little better, right? My motto is be better tomorrow because of what you do today. I, I, I'm also working on— I'm almost done my certified personal trainer, um, because I've been doing it for years without any paperwork. And so I, I believe in incremental growth, right? You're a weightlifter, so you understand, right? No, you don't, you don't get it.

So, oh, I know, I know what it is. I'm not a weightlifter though.

Oh, okay.

Well, you were too round to be a weightlifter. You were in high school, so, so I lifted weight and I was an athlete and we were in the weight room, but I never did like the bodybuilding or competitions of weightlifting or anything like that.

Yeah, no, that's too deep. What I'm talking about is everyday growth, right? So if you go into the gym and you're doing 5x5 with 225 on bench press, right? Well, if you do 5x5 and next week you do 5x5 but you have less rest time between those sets, you're better than you were last time. If you can add a half pound or, you know, you, you put a little, the little half-pound plates, incremental plates on each side and add 1 pound of that bar, you're better than you were last time, right? It's incremental growth. As a lot of people don't see that until you're in the gym for a long time, or like you train people like I do on the side. Right? I see that with a client.

My—

I had a friend who was like, I'm not getting any better. I was like, yeah, you are. You didn't die between sets. That's huge improvement. You're actually taking regular rest instead of looking like you just died. That's a huge improvement on your part. You're getting stronger, you're building up endurance. And so I, I try and advocate for the same thing with the Fallow Man, is, you know, pick one thing today, just one little thing. It doesn't— and it can be— it doesn't have to be the same thing every day. Today I'm going to read 5 pages of a book that will help me grow, right, on business or personal finance or languages or whatever I'm interested in. And it's not measured by this is what growth is, it's what can make you better. Read 5 pages today, you, you did something to make yourself better. Can you imagine what it's like if people take one little small thing Instead of sitting on my ass the entire— oh, sorry. Instead of sitting on my ass during lunchtime, right, it takes me 5 minutes to eat my lunch. Now I get up, I go walk around my building during lunch. I'm doing something because I sit at a computer all day. So now I'm getting up and walking for 15 to 20 minutes every day, right? That's something small, but it's incremental growth. And now I listen to a podcast or an audiobook while I'm doing it, right? I'm— and I, I don't listen to like fiction books. I listen to books on business. I listen to books on finance. I listen to stuff like that, right? So I'm feeding my brain, I'm feeding my body at the same time. That's a little bit of improvement every single day. And that's what The Fallible Man has— it started as let's start this conversation and have a place where kids can have this conversation, where young men can have this conversation. And then it's expanded to, let's be a place where men at our age can have that conversation. I don't have a whole lot of friends who talk about building their own business. I don't have a lot of friends who are interested in investing in personal finance, right? That's not something I'm surrounded by. So I want to have— be a place that provides that kind of insights and look and information and a place to have a conversation with men who just go, you know what, I want to be the best version of me. I think everybody owes it to themselves to try and live up to their full potential, not for the world at large. I mean, yeah, that it helps the world at large, but for yourself, just to see, right? Socrates said a long time ago that no man has the right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training. It's a shame for a man to grow old without seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable, right? I love that quote. I have it written down over here. That's why I was looking over there. Um, but I think Socrates missed it. It's not just physical. I think every man owes it to himself to see who he can truly become. First for himself, then if he decides to have a family, for his family, right? Because we're setting the example for that next generation, right? I want my daughters to see me working on myself. I want my wife to see me working on myself because she believes in me. And then it helps build our community. Michael Jackson said, if you want to make a difference in the world, take a look at yourself and make a change. It's what you can control.

I think he's saying that.

He did.

Hey, you've got a great cadence. You've got— you craft your words well and almost a story, uh, framework. You clearly were a youth pastor.

Thank you, I think.

No, no, it's good. I mean, like I said, great cadence, great flow. Um, uh, you delivered that message well, and it's one that I really needs to be heard. Incremental growth, it was, it was, that was beautifully said. And my gosh, if you ever want to talk about those subjects, call me, man. Favorite subjects in the world: small business, personal finance. I love that stuff. And I do have a, I don't know, I had a, we had a group here in St. Augustine, it's called Young Professionals Organization., and so I just kind of surrounded myself with those kind of people. Um, and so I've got a lot of friends that are in that small business world and invest and all that kind of stuff. Uh, but now, you know, now that I think about it, it's from that group. It's from me going out and joining that. We just met once a month and, uh, usually I think it was the second Thursday we'd go to a bar and, uh, I think we paid $100 a year. We made it a nonprofit. It was, uh, $100 a year. And then we would negotiate with the bar ahead of time and we'd get like $1, $2 beers or something like that. And we're like, hey, but you know, it's gonna be a Thursday night and, uh, we're gonna make your place like the happening place. You know, we'll go out front on the patio or in the corner and it's gonna be a whole lot of people, a whole lot of cars. We're gonna bring attention to your restaurant because yours is the happening place. Now we'd have like 30, 40, 50 people show up, um, and we just, you know, as members we drank for free and it was just on a tab and You know, no one drinks more than 3 beers, so we'd have to pay like, you know, for 150, 200 beers, but at a buck or 2 bucks a piece, it wasn't so bad.

Mhm. Um, made yourself a group so you could do that.

Yeah, so someone else actually made the group, but that's the group I joined, and then I became in the board, went on the board, became president of it and all. Um, but that's where like a lot of my friendships to this day, uh, are from that group. Uh, which is kind of what you're forming there, you know, trying to get like-minded people together that want to work on themselves, um, you know, have similar goals and interests. Yeah, that's, that's— so in what methods is The Fallible Man doing that? Like, so, so we get— I get the goal, I get the, the point of it, it makes a lot of sense. So what practical, tactical ways are you doing that? Obviously you have the podcast, Ironically, this started out as a book.

I actually started writing a book, um, and then I realized it's like, well, I want someone other than my mom to read it, so I should, uh, start social media, right? Because that's what everybody does now. I didn't know anything about social media. I didn't have a single social media account before I started doing this. Um, I thought, hey, that's right, everybody goes to social media and go crazy. And so I'll build a following there so when I finish writing a book, there's somebody who actually wants to read it, right? And then I started writing, doing social— I hate social media, dude. Oh my God, I hate social media. It is agony. I have 9 social media accounts and I hate every single one of them.

You still have them today?

I do, I do. And I still update them all regularly. And I hate it.

Is that— is there one— is there one platform you're doing better on than others?

Uh, ironically, I found a new platform that's only on Apple called Wisdom.

Never heard of it.

I was invited last winter. Yeah, last winter, last spring, I was actually invited by the creators of the platform to be on there, and it's a mentorship app. People go on there and basically it's a podcast. Like, you just go on live and do a podcast. You can even download it. But like last weekend, I, I had 80 people for an hour and a half listening to me, and, and it was an off-the-cuff Q&A I did on parenting and, uh, marriage. And I, I've had more traction there. I actually had to switch from Android to iPhone to be able to do it.

I know, I don't even have Apple.

And yeah, I, I was an Android guy entirely. I, I've been off Apple for years, but I actually just went back to Apple so I could be— and I mean, it's paid off. I, I had 180 people on one chat and stuff like that. I've only done like 9 since I started.

Those smaller, more intimate things tended— they just hit deeper than broadcasting to a bunch where it's kind of like—

they do. And that one, like, listeners can click and queue to come on the show. So there's a lot of interaction with the people, listeners.

That's good.

Which is very cool. So that's my favorite one. Um, but I've got— yeah, I'm too many, too many, too many.

We did really well on Instagram, and then Instagram changed their algorithm. Um, so we— like, what I was good at was memes. We would make a bunch of memes, and because I'm traveling, I don't have a lot of, um, uh, it's, it's, it's too chaotic to get into a rhythm because we're always moving. Um, and then when we get somewhere, we're doing a bunch of stuff, and then we move and we— it's a whole new place and we're doing more stuff. And that's been like 2 years straight. Um, so there's been no rhythm of, of, uh, work. So, but we built up good on, uh, Instagram. They changed their algorithm from a photo platform to a video platform because they're trying to compete with TikTok. Yeah, they are competing with TikTok. And so like our— I mean, we got up past 40,000 followers. You know, it was doing great.

I got like 60 or something.

Yeah, a lot of engagement. And then they switched to video and all of a sudden my engagement was going— here, I'm in the camera. So numbers were fine, like we saw the pilot, just like engagement went to crap. And I'm not a social media guru or anything, uh, you know, I'm kind of like you. I don't— I just— I didn't use it a lot. It wasn't my thing. I'm not artistic and creative in that kind of way. I, I can put out good content. I'm just not good at, uh, the, the aesthetics of it.

Um, I told my wife, if we get to a point where I'm making money with this, the first thing I'm— I'm high— the person I'm hiring is a social media person.

And so, yeah, so they switched the video. So now we're starting to work on some video to get that engagement back. And if I put out a reel we get decent engagement, and that kind of depends on the song I used and the, you know, what image and what message it was. So some do better than others. My best performing one is one where I kicked my family, um, like they were on a swing. It's a really cool swing, but you know, I kind of like do that, um, this is Spartaca kicked, um, not a real kick, it was like a push with my foot to their chest while I'm holding the camera. And so they go on this like roller coaster swing, and then it went to Incubus That was my jam in high school. Uh, I forget what song it was, something like Goodbye. Oh yeah, Goodbye, Nice to Know Ya, um, was the song. And so every time I kicked them, it like, it just happened to line up with goodbye, nice to know you. So that's probably my best moment. It was like, like 50,000 people, uh, or 60,000, something like that. So that gets engagement back, but it's a pain. They're going to change it again. Oh yeah, so that was so, that was so disheartening. It was so disheartening to, you know, build something up and then like one change there and all of a sudden like you don't have that deep impact anymore. So that's where that Wisdom one interests me, because that's what I'm more interested in now, is how do we get, how do we get smaller groups and just be able to dive deeper and have real engagement and conversations? Because the whole— not that I don't mind having a big presence and being able to broadcast that, it's just when you have it and then it's ineffective, it's— what's the point? Like, yeah, so—

oh yeah, and it changes all the time. Like, I see it, I, I follow a couple professionals on YouTube who do, uh, social media consultants, and I look at them constantly putting out— and they made a change and they made this change and these new rules, and it's like, oh God, now I should probably follow those people so I know what the changes are.

It took me like 4 months and I'm like, why are our numbers going down? And I start Googling it and I'm like, oh What was that?

I'm spread way too thin on social media though. Like, it just— I, I went too broad. I got too many to be efficient on any of them, really.

I, I create for Instagram, uh, I always have, and then I just— it goes to everything else too. So whatever I created for Instagram goes to Facebook, goes to Twitter, goes to— uh, can't really go to TikTok unless it's a video. Goes to LinkedIn. I think that's really about it. I was on MeWe for about 5 minutes. I got bored with that because that did nothing.

My platform other than the podcast, right, is YouTube. And I'm working on growing YouTube. I have— so I have a live stream every Monday on YouTube, Facebook at 5 PM Pacific. And I love that because A, I don't have to edit it afterwards, and B, it gives me a chance to interact with people, which is what I really want to do, right? And then my podcast is released on all platforms and YouTube on Wednesdays, and then I have usually a one-off video I do on Fridays.

Okay, so the format, uh, of the YouTube, so it's a live, like, Q&A type thing?

Yeah, yeah, I do a live stream, uh, every Monday night called Manly Mondays.

Okay.

And we'll talk about something specific for 15 to 30 minutes, and then I'll open it up for Q&A, and anything that falls under man, husband, and father is fair game after that.

Okay, so you have like a something prepared, like a speech or sermon or whatever it is, and then there's follow-up afterwards?

Oh, let's not call it a sermon, but yeah, no, I, uh, I usually have a specific subject, and I've had, uh, I've had guests on. Like, I had— I just finished wrapping up with a group called Saving Innocence, uh, for an anti-child sex trafficking group out of LA. I actually did a 3-event series with them. I interviewed They wrote a book. The executive director and one of the counselors, also a sex trafficking survivor, wrote a book together called Men Fight for Me. It's an excellent book. I can get you their contacts if you want to talk to them. Um, but I interviewed him, did a livestream Q&A with both of them the following Monday, and then interviewed her on the podcast that next week. So I had podcast on Wednesday, live stream on Monday, podcast on Wednesday. I did a 3-part series with them. And then I've had like a marriage counselor on for my friends over at Genoli LLC. And I did a men's mental health Q&A with an award-winning psychiatrist out of, uh, Australia that I've gotten to work with a couple times. So I try and mix it up sometimes. A lot of times it's just me, but I try and bring in guests to answer questions I can't and stuff like that.

So, so you've got the social media platforms, Wisdom being your favorite. Mm-hmm. You've got the podcast that comes out once a week on Wednesdays. Mm-hmm. You've got YouTube on Mondays. It's a live Q&A format. Yeah.

Mondays and Fridays.

And then was, what else are you doing?

Oh man, that about spins it.

I'm okay. And then eventually the, I'm assuming the end game is a book.

You know, eventually. It's, it's on the back burner at the moment. Um, I feel like I can engage people more on YouTube, right? I feel like I have more control over that as far as being able to engage and kind of control building an audience.

Well, you don't have to stop doing that stuff when you release a book.

No, no, I, I have no intention of stopping doing it.

Yeah, it's not, hey, I have a book, I don't need you people anymore.

Right now I'm solo producing a live stream, a podcast on audio and video format, and another video every single week. I'm doing all my own business stuff. I'm usually reading 4 books at a time, uh, for upcoming interviews. I won't interview an author without reading his book first or her book first. And so I've got multiple books on the back burner for that. I'm actually working on not only my NASM Certified Personal Trainer certification, I'm also working on my NASM Behavioral Specialist— Behavioral Change Specialist. And nutritionalist and recovery specialist at the same time. So I'm working on a total of 6 certifications through them. Uh, I design— I have an entire line of clothing on the website and doing all the business administration stuff. And then I'm also a father and a husband. So, and I work—

what's one more thing to that list, right? Right.

Wisdom is actually the newest thing on that list. So it's, uh, well, you're smart.

You're smart to livestream. Uh, that's what I, that's why I should probably start doing the podcast livestream because here's what happens, like with this podcast, we end it, you say, hey, that was a great podcast, can't wait till it comes out, and I have to rewatch it 3 times while I edit it. We gotta watch it through at least once and then I'm making cuts and, you know, making it pretty and stuff. Uh, uh, which sometimes depending on how the conversation went is way more difficult than it should be.

Oh yeah. Yeah. No, I, I don't do my live. I do my livestream. That's a livestream show.

Mm-hmm.

The podcast I record just like you and I are now. So I do all my own post-production on all those things. I don't have any staff. I don't have any employees. So I'm doing post-production on 2 videos every week and the podcast. And my social media and blah blah blah.

Listen, I feel you, we're in the same boat.

Exactly. So you get it. I don't think we've even started tackling why you had me on here originally.

So masculinity, so how, you know, defined differently by a lot of people. So how do you kind of define masculinity? Uh, what does it mean to you?

Masculinity is an interesting question. Like, I, I actually spent some serious time in reflection getting ready for this podcast because it's like And really, masculinity is kind of a bastardized term. Like, there isn't even actually an official definition in this, like, in the dictionary. If you look at the dictionary in the— or if you look in the dictionary for the definition, it refers to possibly inherited or socially learned traits of being masculine. Right? There's— it's a non-committal kind of answer. Um, so to me, you almost— you got to kind of back it up, right? So what, what is being masculine? Well, well, being masculine is a cocktail of hormones, right? There are women who have masculine traits, masculine features, right? They have a harder jawline, or they have a little bit more testosterone, so they build muscle easier, right? Those are quote-unquote biologically masculine traits.

Right?

Then there are biolog— there's males, right? And I'm old school, so that's biological males, okay? You, to me, I'm— that's what you're born with, that's what you are. You're a male. Being a man, it's a choice in the way you live. There are a lot of little boys, there are not a lot of men in the world. Um, and then masculinity is kind of like this crazy combination of all three definitions and terms, right? Masculinity has a lot to do with the traits that we're taught, both as we're raised, the fact that we are men, the fact that we have certain biological tendencies, and by how society shapes our role. That's where you get into masculinity, right? So we argue about toxic masculinity. To me, I, I hate the term. I'm utterly opposed to the term toxic masculinity. I actually make a shirt that says toxic masculinity and the toxic's crossed out and says essential over the top of it, because the things that people generally define as toxic masculinity I would define as a lack of masculinity, right? I, I would not call that toxic masculinity, just a lack of masculinity and manhood. Um, but we, we throw the context around, but we don't really have a solid definition. Now, I have how I would define being a man, but masculinity is just a cocktail of several different components of our life. It's— we're born men, we're, we're born with masculine biology, we're born with masculine hormones. And then you can choose to become a man. You can choose to grow up and mature and become a man.

And so I feel like mature masculinity— I feel like maturity is a good word. Um, certainly, uh, learned behaviors, uh, was a good hitting point. It's— we put out a meme probably last year at some point. We're like, So what do you know? We hear this phrase all the time. Uh, you know, people say it to little boys or kids or anybody, but man up. We hear that phrase a lot and it doesn't mean grow testicles, but what does it mean? So when someone says we need you to man up right now, what does that typically mean? And so we have a lot of great responses. Um, I'd be interested in what what you, uh, would be thinking that means. If you're telling someone to man up, what specifically are you requesting of that person?

I am requesting that person to take a breath, control his emotional state, and then lead with his abilities. His mindset.

Okay, so a calculated response, right?

I, I think so. You know, we were talking about, uh, differences in our emails back and forth, and one of the things is, is some women say it's unhealthy, and I, I think it's right. People, people accuse men of trying to be emotionless or are trying to be too stoic, right? I think there are some good points to stoicism. And I think you can take anything to an extreme. But one of the incredible things about the way our brains are wired, men's brains are wired as opposed to women, is we have the ability to separate emotion from a situation or from facts more easily. Women can do it too, but it takes a lot more effort because it goes against their hardwiring in their brain. Um, And so that ability to step the situation, the emotions around the situation, to the side. I'm saying I need you to put your fear or your concern or whatever to the side. I need you to logically look at the situation, process the data, and then step into what is necessary at the moment.

Because that's compartmentalizing.

Right. But that's what men do. If you look historically, right, I am— the military is near and dear to my heart. And I've never met a soldier who wasn't scared to run into guns, to run into gunfire, to run into explosions, to run into battlefield. I've never— I've known some of the most badass Special Forces soldiers in the world. I grew up knowing a guy who was Mr. Army 3 times. Had more medals than he could talk about and was the head of the Rangers in the western United States. Jack was one of the scariest men I have ever met in my life. He did not love war. He did not want to run headlong into gunfire, but he would do it absolutely without question if that was the initiative that he had to follow. If he needed to do it to protect people, there was no question, there was no hesitancy. It was always I will serve to the greater good.

Right.

And so that's what I'm— when I'm telling someone to man up, I'm telling them to step out of their emotion, process the logical facts, and step up to what needs to be done. Not what you want to do, what needs to be done.

Um, so yeah, I think that was some of the responses we got was, um, remove emotion from the equation. Um, and sometimes that was like, uh, I don't want to say crying because, you know, certain people take that different ways, but, um, remove emotion and just deal with what it is right now. We can, we can deal with the emotion later. Sometimes the urgency is more important. Um, what else did they say? I need you to man up right now. Um, if it would be like an example you gave earlier, if two teenage, uh, kids getting pregnant. And that kid, that 17-year-old kid who's now gotten a girl pregnant, we might be telling him to man up, which is going to mean assume your responsibilities, um, take, take control, you know, be that calm presence like you were talking about. But yeah, now it's time for you to probably produce an income, um, make sure you're creating a good safe home, uh, make sure you're not running around and trying to date other girls, that you're doing the honorable thing and, and and staying with this girl, um, marrying her, um, forming a life together, um, not worrying about, uh, you know, what was me, instead building something.

Ownership of the situation.

Mhm. Absolutely.

Extreme Ownership by Jocko Willink. Ah, uh, do you know who Jocko Willink is?

Nope.

Okay, Jocko Willink, he has a podcast called the Jocko Podcast, but Jocko Willink was— did you see the movie American Sniper?

Oh yeah. Yeah.

Jocko was his boss. Jocko was one of the Navy SEALs in charge of Operation Bruiser. Um, he was an instructor for now Congressman Crenshaw. Jocko is a legend in the teams and just an incredible individual. Him and a buddy of his. Teach businesses actually like extreme leadership. And he wrote a book called Extreme Ownership, which just really summarized a lot of what I believed about that aspect. Right. It doesn't matter if it's your fault or not. If I take ownership of it, if I go, well, I know this guy did it, but if I, I could have possibly communicated better or I could have interacted with him in a more positive way, or I could have. Right. If you look at what I could do because the situation is ultimately on me, that gives you power, that gives you strength, control. So I think ownership becomes a big part of that. It's a— it's become more of a hot word recently, but I think that falls into that responsibility, right? We grew up with the term responsibility, but ownership, I think, really kind of takes responsibility And wraps it to a whole nother level.

Yeah, we, we put out that message quite a few times of, uh, uh, dad's a good dad. Well, it's not always dad. I tie it a lot to small business a lot because it's, it's very relevant in that situation as a leader. Um, but to be able to shoulder the burden of all the responsibility, take all the blame, take all the fault, and here's the key thing, and not let it crush you.

That's very important.

Yeah. Um, but yeah, I mean, and, uh, that's why my customers liked me in business. I mean, it— the buck stopped with me in a very real sense. You know, if they called, it wasn't me saying, oh, an employee did this, or hey, the machine's failing, or hey, no, one of your— one of your employees told us to do this or that. It was, I'm gonna fix it, that's my fault, I'm sorry. Um, and we move on. And it's just shoulder the blame and keep going. It's a very practical, uh, way to live. It's, it's, it gives you a better quality of life, and I think it just makes you happier. Because when you're not running around blaming people and everything is everybody else's fault, and you just say you're a victim, I'll take it and I can fix it.

If everybody else, it's their fault, then you're a victim. You have no control. You can't fix the situation. You can't make it better. You can't get around it. If you're a victim, you have no control over the whole thing. I actually was just talking to a friend of mine. He's growing his hot sauce business. He's starting to distribute around the country wherever he can get his hot sauce, artisan hot sauce, in the stores. His personal phone number is on the label.

Nice.

Not his business cell. His personal number is on the label. And he went on my podcast and went— was like, No, if you don't like my hot sauce, I want you to call me. I want you to call me and tell me why, because I can't make it better without that input as well.

That makes sense.

I don't want to hear why my hot sauce is great. I want to hear why you don't like it.

Okay. I put my cell phone out there. It's always been out there, but I actually did a meme for it. I was like, call me anytime, text me anytime. Um, and it's— so it's my actual phone. It's not one of those like community numbers, uh, you know, where you can mass market. My wife was so mad at me.

I bet.

Because I already— but the truth was, like, I mean, my phone's always on silent because I get so many daggum— that was my work. I mean, everyone's always had my number. It got used for work everything for over a decade. It's been on every marketing list ever. So it's like, I'm getting tons of stuff anyway. I only answer calls that, you know, I know who's calling, uh, and usually I'm calling people back because, uh, it's on silent most of the time, plus I'm in different time zones. Okay, masculinity. So if I had to describe masculinity or draw a picture of masculinity, it's probably cowboys, military, leather vest bikers, a beard, broad shoulders, a square jaw, trying to say, probably a big truck. That would be masculine, which is— because I don't think a lot of guys like sports cars, but I don't think that would be— that would be a guy thing but not masculine. I think most people wouldn't consider that a masculine thing. So I'm trying to find a way to put a definition on it, you know. Maybe chewing tobacco and spitting would be masculine. Um, what are some other things that maybe are, are common perceptions of You know, if you got to create a masculine character for a TV show or a movie, they're always loud and they're always bullies in shows. Are they though?

Uh, okay, I can't say always. You're right. So the ones that they really want to exemplify as pretending to be masculine are always loud and bullies. Did you see the new series Reacher? So the actor Alan Richardson, who plays the character, dude is 6'5". He jacked up, he added 30 pounds of muscle. He looks like a bodybuilder. Like, he's 6'5", he's already a big man, but he got massive for the role, right? And one of the opening scenes, he's walking in, this guy's yelling at his girlfriend and pushing her around. He just stops and just stares the guy down. The guy ends up apologizing, saying he's having a bad day and it will never happen again. All he does is stare at him, right? Reacher is clean-shaved, nice haircut, just dude standing there in a t-shirt. But it was like, that was a masculine look, right? But what made him masculine? It was the way he looked at him, and it was his physical presence, right? So a lot of people translate masculinity as to a physical presence.

So like an intimidating presence, right?

But I don't— that's not accurate to me. Like I said, I've known— I, I was stationed at a special operations base and I, I met some like terrifyingly scary people. It's— there's no other word for it. I mean, but— and they don't look like anything special. Sure, there's, there's, uh, Rangers, Green Berets, Delta. I saw them all. And none of them stick out.

So I would say like the Marlboro Man, you know, cowboy, quintessential, not intimidating, very masculine, right?

Um, and you know, there's, you know, he's got a lone gunslinger kind of hero-esque behind him that we have from westerns too.

And we've seen images of Taliban, Al-Qaeda kind of characters that are intimidating but not masculine.

Right. So I actually get a lot of grief, um, because of the way I look. I actually had one of the guys I interviewed who was like, dude, that's a great persona you got going on. It took me like 10 minutes after I got out the interview to figure out what he meant, because this is me. And for all of your listeners who are listening to audio on this, okay, I have a beard down to my nipple line. I have a French braided mohawk, uh, Viking-esque. Otherwise, my head is bald. My first job, I was a ranch hand in Wyoming. I used to push cattle on horseback, carry a gun, the whole nine yards. I work construction. I'm ex-military. I ride a motorcycle. My youth kids loved me. I have tattoos. I have piercings. I stand a modest 6 foot, but I also squat 500 pounds. So I'm, I'm pretty thick. I'm not like bodybuilder thick. I always train for strength instead of for size, but I'm, I'm thick. My wife will not let me shave my head. That's why I have the mohawk. My daughters put that out actually. Uh, my, my daughters, I, I teased about it and they're like, do it, daddy, do it. So I just shaved it in one day, uh, because my wife won't let me shave my head. I kept my head shaved. Shaved like big smooth for years, and my wife told me I was no longer allowed to do that after I let it grow back because I was scaring everybody. Even one of my mother's friends was like, you look much less menacing with hair.

Yeah, funny, most of the big guys with beards I know are super nice, right?

They are. But when you're a big guy, you also— it's something my father taught me. My dad was 6'5". My dad was a huge dude. I'm only 6 foot because my mom stands like my chest, otherwise I'd be much bigger. But he told me from the time I was little, because I was so much bigger than other kids— I hit 6 between 5th and 6th grade, I grew a foot. I went from an average-sized kid to bigger than everybody. Yeah, it was very painful summer. Um, but my dad told me, he's like, look, you're gonna be big like me. So you have to be very, very, uh, intentional about the way you come across—your physicality, your size, your voice. You have to be very intentional about your physicality. And he was telling me this from the time I was 12, right? He said, your physicality is going to scare people, and so you will have to learn to make sure and defuse that because it will cause even positive situations to possibly have negative outcomes. People may not say they're intimidated, but people who are smaller than you will always be slightly intimidated, except for, you know, you got little scrappy guys that are like 5 foot that would punch a bear in the face, right? Those guys got a chip on their shoulder for their size. Um, but he's— he told me from the day, from early on. It's like, you're going to have to be intentional. I think a lot of big men learn that. But I have a very traditionally masculine look. It's not a, I'm trying to look masculine. It's not a, I'm trying to be big and scary. It's what I like. It's just who I am. I've been this way for a long time. And so, you know, this is the quote-unquote look that a lot of people I get— I pull up on my motorcycle, and I mean, I pull up on a bike, I've got a leather vest, I look like a biker. My first tattoo was done by a Hells Angel. Yeah, you know, I've been around that culture. First impressions. And so I have to be very intentional about it. And you're right, a lot of big guys are very— like, some of the biggest guys in the world, like Brian Shaw, right, 4-time World's Strongest Man, Hafthor Bjornsson, are are big teddy bear guys. They're some of the sweetest people in the world. They could crush you like Andre the Giant or something, but some of the sweetest guys in the world.

So I think that was good awareness of your father to teach you that. Um, I was never taught anything like that. In fact, it wasn't until just recently my wife was having that discussion with me. I can't remember how it got started. I was asking her about something. She's like, Townsend, you're a big dude. I'm 6'2", like 250. You know, broad shoulder and all. And she's like, Townsend, you're like, you are an intimidating presence. Because I think it had to do with women. Like, she was like, like, you got to be careful when you're in a room with girls or in a room like, you know, or in an area where it's just one girl and you, because you are like, you, you will put all the hairs go up when you walk in. Like, it's because if you want to do something, you could, you have the physical ability to. So to kind of disarm the students, also said the same thing about me, like, you know, make sure I don't shoot anybody. You know, if there's a situation of safety, like maybe try and defuse it another way before shooting, because if I go to a courtroom for murder, I'm going to look like the bully. Oh, you just have, you, you have the swag when you walk that you don't mean to, like you just, you walk like that and you know, it's, it's, you your body language and your presence, you look like the bully. And so you're not going to do well in court to a jury. So please don't end up there.

It's funny because that's a masculine trait. That's not that, that swag that, that comes across, right? A lot of, a lot of people talk about the, the swag. Oh, you're cocky. No, that, that is a man who is comfortable and confident in who he is. That is a relaxed walk. That's not a— I'm not military marching. That's a I'm good, I'm on time, I'm going at my pace, and I feel good about where I am and who I am, and I'm confident in myself.

Yeah, that's funny. No one ever told me that. No one ever told me to watch my, uh, you know, I guess control that first impression, or, or, you know, be aware of your size. I think that was really good fathering on your dad's part.

Well, a lot of people don't think about it, right? You know, big guys settle into being big guys.. And once they do, once they, once they've mastered being a big guy without causing problems, it becomes life and you don't necessarily think about it, right? My dad was an absurdly big man and because of it, like, it actually got him in trouble at school because, you know, it's that same idea of you don't ever want to be the toughest guy because somebody always wants to come prove something. Like, guys were constantly trying to start fights with my dad. Sure. Cool. And it happened to me once I hit a certain size. I had guys trying to start fights with me all the time. And so it's just for him, because he saw it with me, right? I'm not even sure he had the conversation with my older brother. My older brother is actually, I think, an inch taller than me. But he also has a much calmer demeanor about him. Uh, his personality type and mine are very different. I, I'm much more— and I, I hate to describe it this way, but stereotypically more masculine. I, I'm the more aggressive, more intense. Yeah, abrasive. I, I had a co-worker say, hey, oh no, you know, you're good after you get used to you. It's kind of like hugging a cactus. At first it hurts, but then you get used to it. I'm very no-nonsense, and so like, I actually expect people to do the jobs they get paid to do. It's crazy, right? I was told I can't expect that anymore, that younger— the younger generation is different, I can't expect that same thing. I'm like, I train people to do their jobs, and they're getting paid to do the job, they better do it. I'm— so I've become a hard-ass because I expect people to actually do what they get paid to do. But yeah, you know, I certainly come across as abrasive, whereas my brother is a very nurturing, very caring individual. He's very— he'll listen to you and wants to have real deep conversations and cares about what's happening with who he's talking to. And I'm, I'm much more loud and in your face. And, and so my dad felt like, it's like, oh wait, yep, that one definitely got my traits. Siddif is mother's, we should, uh, have this conversation.

That, that was really good awareness, um, of even using that as an example of, you know, your kids aren't the same. Just because you, you did this with your oldest doesn't mean that's going to happen with your youngest or your middle. Like, you've got to kind of, uh, be ready to make adjustments on the fly. It's, it's not all going to be identical.

And I don't mean to demean my older brother in any way. Like, more than almost anybody in the world, I don't tell him that enough probably, but like, he, he is my hero, my brother. I adore my older brother.

There's going to be personality differences, that's normal.

Definitely have very strong personality differences. And so yeah, it's, it's— Mike was much likely— I mean, I think he got in a fight or two, but he was much likely less likely to get in a fight, whereas If you pushed me, yeah, we, we're having it out, dude. I ain't stepping down.

So no, I wasn't the biggest in my school. I mean, we were a powerhouse football team. We had a couple big linemen, like, you know, 6'5", 6'6", bigger than me. I could knock them out easily because they were big softies, um, but they were like physically— but no one ever challenged me. I was also a standout wrestler, like varsity freshman year in the big heavyweight classes.

Yeah, you don't want— what's that? You don't want them getting a hold of you.

Um, I would have— I would have probably enjoyed it, to be honest. Um, yeah, no one— I, I just— I didn't have that same experience of, of, of people wanting to challenge me. I, I can't even remember those bigger guys in school, um, facing that either, but that may have been a different— just different, you know, as we've traveled the country, I've learned Um, you know, the cultures are very different around the country. Oh yeah. You know what it's like in this, you know, we're a bigger town now, but you know, 20 years ago, small beach town, you know, coastal beach town with a, with a big football team. Um, it just, it wasn't a really aggressive vibe there. You know, we were good at the sport, but it was very chill because we wanted to be at the beach.

Well, some of my conflicts were my own doing. Like in junior high, I was not only the big kid, I was the big white kid. Kid in a mostly Hispanic school. And I got along with most of those guys, like I was good friends with most of them, uh, until I dated— tried to date a couple Hispanic girls, and apparently that was not cool. Yeah, so, you know, that got me into some stuff. But no, I, I think there's a lot of misunderstanding, and I think that's part of the problem today, right? We have these hyper-masculine pictures we paint of masculinity, like you were talking about, the biker, the soldier, right? Um, I, I know as many soldiers— like, my, my daughter, my 10-year-old, likes to tease me because, like, movies that have, like, uh, major self-sacrifice, right, where someone sacrifices them— like, I tear up in those. It's full circle now because I used to tease my dad about being a crier. So, you know, I— it's, it's come full circle. Because like the movie Acts of Valor, it's, uh, uh, it's the guy who wrote, uh, Hunt for Red October. Um, but like they got the United States Navy to help them fill it. It's a declassification, it's a declassified mission. And man, I was weepy through the whole movie. Like, you know, I, I've known a lot of military people and love them dearly. And so like these guys just sacrifice themselves, right? That tears me up. I, I can watch them like blow a puppy away, I'm like, yeah, whatever. But those deep—

so what is, what is a good, uh, picture of masculinity? An ideal scenario in 2022?

I think a good ideal, okay, masculinity isn't necessarily a physicality thing. I know a lot of physically smaller men who are giants in any space they're in, right? So I don't think we can limit masculinity to a physical form. I think masculinity in 2022 looks a whole lot like men who take responsibility, who tell the truth, who serve their community around them, whether that's a mere immediate family or something larger, right? Who, who see the, uh, altruism— is that the right word? Um, I think so— of serving something bigger than themselves. And that might be something simple. Maybe that you volunteer with the Boy Scouts, maybe you volunteer with your church, maybe you volunteer and read books to the elderly. But I think masculinity reflects in men who see that there's something bigger than them to serve, and so they try and set an example by the way they do that. They try and lead by example with honesty and integrity. Um, I think masculinity shows in a resolve to become better because it's a lot like a weightlifter— there's never enough weight. I think as you grow as a person, you see, the more you grow mature as a person, the more you understand that you will always have room to grow and mature. And so it's, it's not the, uh, picture that we normally see. In fact, in, uh, 2017, Harry's Razors, which obviously you and I are not fans of razors, but Harry's Razors did a one-of-a-kind year-long study in the UK, and it's called Harry's Masculinity Report. They ran for a year and interviewed over 65,000 men. It is, it is the biggest one and only of its kind study ever done in history. And the top 6 qualities that men prized in their report were honesty, reliability, dependability, commitment, and loyalty. Those are— sorry, 5, followed by creativity. Those were the top 6 things that they found after this year-long study of over 65,000 men. They also found men prized jobs that were fulfilling to them, where they felt appreciated and fulfilled, like they had a place in the company, like they actually provided value and were valued in return. Purpose. Yeah, they valued— but specifically in their job, purpose in their job. Um, they found that they valued family and being home and community, like physicality, like fitness, strength, stuff like that. Fell way, way, way down the list. And I think that's very accurate. I think at one time we were called to depend on that physicality more, and so that played a larger role of what masculine was because our lives dictated that was the reality of our life. Men had to be ready to go to war. Now only select men go to war. I listened to an interview the other day And a drill sergeant was complaining that Generation Z is actually getting hurt more in basic training than any other group before them because their bodies are not physically capable or strong enough to handle the rigors of basic training.

I believe that because they're not playing outside and jumping. I just found out the public schools here, I just found out the public schools here don't even do, um, you don't even have recess or much less PE every day.

Ours has, uh, recess every day here, the one my girls were in, but it turns out like the PE teacher has only been in like 3 times this entire year, and they do a walkathon as their fundraiser.

So I think something that was missing from that list, um, and my natural instinct would be to make fun of the UK and say that would have never happened in the USA is there was no mention of, uh, bravery or courage in the top 5.

I think those are important, critically important. But to me, part of that comes from ownership. Not all of it.

The responsibility part. Yeah.

Comes from ownership. Um, I think that's highly underrated because a lot of bravery also comes from ownership. They look at the responsibility and look at who they are. And act in a brave manner because it's who they are and it's taken on.

Certainly it's an action word. It's, it's realizing that this might be high risk or dangerous or whatever, but we are moving forward, right?

And I mean, we've seen, we've seen the damage. So the UK back in the 1800s, late 1800s, actually moved to start feminizing men. It was a big movement in Great Britain back in the late 1800s. They actually were trying to effeminate or effeminize men. Um, yeah, so there was a—

so I think we're still talking classes of people back then in the UK. So I think they're still at that point, um, royal, uh, gosh, what would it have been? Would there have been serfs?

A serf class? I'm not sure.

Yeah, there was definitely a privileged class, a middle working class, and a poor class. Um, I can't— I wouldn't know the names. I'm very certain of it.

But actually, coming down from royalty and Parliament, they were actually trying to make more men more feminine.

So there were rules for gentlemen in the royal class that I don't think applied to the working class and the and the, the very poor class. And I wonder if that's what you're talking about there, is that gentleman standard.

Um, no, it wasn't. It was actually, um, doing, doing research on this, they actually like— it was a movement because they decided that overly masculine men made the population too unsettled, right? There was always a chance of the population rising up. Are not liking something. And so they decided it would be better if they were a little more feminine, right? And it didn't last long because they found out that it hurt their population or hurt their development, and so they moved away from it. China followed suit many years later. And so what's this—

what specific things were they saying, were they, were they doing to accomplish that goal?

They, they were discouraging, uh, like the fights. They were discouraging the more physical education in schools. A lot of things we're doing in the United States, actually. They were trying to discourage the male play, right, and get them to take more interest in things we would associate with feminism, like cooking and cleaning and knitting and creative, right? They started pushing more creative and started moving away from physicality, uh, as an early movement. And it was very short-lived because it did not take long for them to realize that that was not a healthy movement. China followed suit many years later and moved towards the same thing, where now China is actually trying to butch up their men. Uh, in this last year they ran an amazing report where China is facing a crisis because young men have no interest in raising families and having children at this point. They're become more effeminate, they become more— what, non-binary? Isn't that the catchword these days, right? And we have these K-pop stars for— and sorry, that's, uh, another country, but you know what I mean? Is that— is those— that boys who almost look feminine, right? And that has become such a point they've had a population dip in China that is actually really hurting them at this point, and their military is suffering because of that. All politics aside with what China is being stupid about these days, but right, so now China's trying to butch up their men.

There's a country that 30 years ago was still killing children. Right, yeah, exactly.

So it was a fascinating read to see that China is like, oh, we, we kind of screwed this up. And then so we've been moving that way in the United States for years now. It's just been more subtle. Yeah. Where are you getting that from? I, I interview a lot of people and read lots of things because that's—

okay, yeah, if you had— if you have reference points to some of that stuff, I'd love to read. Yeah, send them to me. So So yeah, the show that I had this conversation, I think I was on the Redefining Manliness podcast. It was about a year, year and a half ago. And we were talking about that. And so we were kind of going into the history of like what's happened to manliness. And it resulted in me like I stayed up like 2 AM just writing because it got me thinking. But I was really, what does it come down to? I should have read that before I got here. I think it's I think the blog I did, or what we've done over the past 50 years to destroy either men or, or fathers, or I can't quite remember. Um, but anyway, so there were a few factors because, uh, it was, it was about the impact of fatherhood and it tied into a lot of man stuff in the female influence. And a few of the factors were we went from, uh, a farming society to an industrial. So we had the Industrial Revolution and we needed factory work. And so dads, this is before 9-to-5 jobs, so dads were going to factories and they were basically gone all day long. And then the children were not being raised in a house where they were working alongside the fields with dad. Dad was not as involved in the family. So you have more of an influence from mom. Um, and then we get into a world where, um, schools are becoming, uh, that's where the kids go all day. So we're less learning at home and we're more going to a school. And, uh, in school, in education, teachers are predominantly women. So we have mom being the more impactful person and, uh, teachers, females. So it's a lot of female influence on boys. And then continuing on the work discussion, you know, we went from to industry into then, you know, you get into the '40s, '50s, '60s, a lot of sales. So we go from industrial to sales and that's taking dads away from the home. And a lot of traveling vets and door-to-door sales and things like that. So again, fathers not being around, um, maybe just on the weekends. Uh, what else was there? Then you had the feminist movement, which was, um, a needed movement because women were gen— were in a very real thing, not allowed to vote. Um, you know, they weren't allowed to, if the husband died, you know, take control of the properties and things like that, or handle the banking. Um, you know, if they did go into the workplace, if they could go into the workplace, they were legitimately not paid well because they were a woman, not because of their production. Um, so there were real needs for that movement, but then we were kind of met, and then it went way too far.

Um, people missed the second half of that movement though. So the day that the women got the vote from women's suffrage, that also actually enabled an entire class of men to vote who had never been able to vote as well. Colored men? Uh, I think it was colored men and immigrants.

Oh yeah, I didn't know that. Uh, I may have heard that once before.

It passed the same— with the same sweep that women's votes did.

Again, things that needed to happen, right? Um, so then, then we had— then we go extreme feminism of just crushing and saying everything you do, everything masculine is bad. Um, then we have, uh, the government's beautiful roles, which are, um, they did some real— especially in the minority segment, they, they, they've created laws to really, and policies that really take fathers out of the home. Oh yeah, that incentivize broken families.

Um, yep, they're quite literally— say that again. It started specifically in the Black community to steal stabilized the Black community has moved on to all women and just destabilizing the family.

Yeah, I mean, the, the tax laws right now, um, de-incentivize having a family. They pay you extra if you break up the home, if you do not have a father involved, if you are a single mother. And then of course, single moms became heroes. My mom was a single mom. She did a great job. Um, but I don't think that's the trajectory we want for all of our daughters, just because some of our moms were good single moms and had a hard job. I don't think that should be the goal. I don't think that should be—

they did good, it should be the standard.

Exactly. Um, trying to think if there are some other things. So I— it was a conversation that happened like this, and it really got my juices flowing, and I ended up writing a blog on it, and it did pretty well.

I just read only 18% of homes are traditional homes at this point.

I read a book once about, um, how, you know, the whole 50% of marriages end in divorce thing Um, this is about 15 years ago this book was written, um, and they tracked down the, uh, how that number was, how they got to that number, um, and the end result was it wasn't a true number, um, because that's not an actual thing that they can track, um, right, because there's a few, there was a few factors in there, um, and I'm trying to think what they were. But anyway, I, I can't remember. I'd have to reread it. Um, but the premise of it was that when you did the research and you followed the sources that people were citing on the 50% of marriages ending in divorce, the sources were citing an article or a magazine or a book that mentioned it, and that source for that thing was citing a magazine or it like— and it was this endless loop of not an actual factual study. And it's just this thing that, um, gets thrown out there. And I think once you removed, uh, death, so widows, um, I think the second and third marriage equations and something like— I can't quite remember how they came to it, but that author, I think it was a woman, ended up being like, so the real divorce rate is probably about 38, 39% instead of 50% like everyone's saying. What it is today, that was 15 years ago. What it is today, I don't know. Everyone still throws around 50%. And I also took a statistics course in college. And so I know very well that statistics are bullcrap. I mean, you can make them whatever you want and find supporting data to justify it. They're just— now I use them when we need to, when I want to prove my point. But it, uh, yeah, you can really manipulate data.

And so Let me add to your blog there, since you're on that path and you've chased that rabbit. I was, uh, having a conversation with Brett Jones from the Warrior Man Podcast out of Australia, and he explained it better than anyone I'd heard explain it. He said after World War II— during World War II, a lot of women went to work in the factories, and it was a long war. So all of a sudden, women were having to do things around the house, women were having to take factory jobs, women were having to do things that were traditionally men's jobs. Men have always needed a place of quiet at some point in their day or in their life. And so we sent all these men to war for years, and they came home and their traditional jobs have been taken over by women. Their traditional roles in the household— their wife had gotten used to having to mow the lawn or change light bulbs or paint something if she wanted it done. And now she's cooking, cleaning, and she's got a job, and she's taking care of household. It— he doesn't have anything that he's needed for anymore after being gone for years and after being in conflict for years and years and years. Unending conflict, unending warfare, men dying around you. Men were ready to walk away from conflict, any conflict. So they got home and they weren't needed. The same way they were needed when they left. So they lost their purpose. Now they weren't soldiers anymore, and now they're just ready to avoid conflict because they've had years of the horrors of conflict at an escalated level. And so, like, he, he did the research and traces back to World War II, specifically in Australia, but I think it's universal, is that was the first stage in which men started going Oh, we don't really have to do this. Oh, they don't really need us to do this. That's fine. You can step into that. You know, we don't mind you doing this. That's what you want to do.

And okay, so a big, a big shift in the role because, you know, I'm thinking about a lot of those guys that came back and they did— I mean, they, they went back to work in factories, they started businesses, they— and, you know, some of those were, you know, the 1950s and '60s golden era that we think of, right?

Right. And some of us came home and just went, oh, I, I don't want to argue with you. I don't want to fight. Yeah, I'll let you— I'll let you make the rules for the kids, right? It was little decisions to avoid conflict. It wasn't that they came home, do anything. A lot of them—

that wouldn't have been every household. That was just kind of like on a broad thing. There were a lot of those scenarios.

Well, there was a lot of— in a lot of households of men going, oh, well, you've been raising the kids for the last 4 years without me. So, you know, I'll just enjoy my kids. I don't have to put that wall. I don't have to make those decisions. You're already making those. You've been doing it with me, help me for 4 years now. So I can just relax and be the fun dad or hang out with my kids. I don't have to be the disciplinarian necessarily. Not all of them, but this psychological damage of being in conflict all the time, a lot of men were very okay with. And it wasn't that they were bad. But since they became less confrontational, their children then observed that their role was less confrontational, less disciplinarian. Mom had more say, right? And we learned from the generations ahead of us. Sure. So it kept collapsing down farther and further. And then I think we hit a tipping point somewhere, a couple, about 3, 4 generations into that. Where a lot of guys were going, eh, I don't want this anymore. My dad was a bum, you know, he didn't do anything with me. And I think hopefully we're starting to move in a more positive movement.

There's a big shift happening. It's happening. Um, and we also left out that there was a, um, probably starting around the 1980s and definitely the '90s and 2000s, uh, entertainment, uh, and media Dad became the punchline. Dad became the late, so lazy, there for the jokes, there to be made fun of, not competent, can't handle the money, he's a fool. Mom generally does everything. She's the smart one, she's the intelligent, she handles the finances, she's the career woman, she takes care of the kids and everything else. Dad's just an absolute joke.

Yeah, a lot of sitcoms.

Yep. And you start— well, you see that, and then the influence, uh, the influence of how much TV people started watching. That's the father figure they see. It impacts you. Um, you're being raised by a lot more woman influence, feminine influence, um, less masculine influence. And yeah, there you have a, a nice little cocktail for why you're meeting guys, uh, that are struggling, right?

And so we come full circle to why you're doing the podcast 100% Dad and why I'm doing The Fallible Man is we see and know that something doesn't feel right and that it can't keep moving this way. And so now we're trying to encourage other men, we're trying to talk to other men, have these conversations.

Yeah, I mean, it can't keep moving that way. It's just, you know, are, are these people really happier and having better lives? It doesn't seem that way. It seems when you find people who are genuinely content in their lives and happy, um, and they don't have as much drama, there's not as much fighting, there's not as much depression and thoughts of suicide, not as much drug use and drinking to cope, that those families have a, a masculine leader in there Um, they are in intact families quite often, and they're kind of just living these nice normal lives. And the men have a purpose.

Yeah, that is a big, big pusher for men. That's why men die so quick after they retire if you don't find a new purpose.

I was just writing that today.

It's just— it's statistics, right? Uh, back to statistics again, but I mean, that's— men are much more likely just Statistics aside, I used to work in a nursing home. Men are much more likely to pass on quickly if they don't find something after their job. Yeah, because men need a purpose. We're purpose-driven. It's in the soul. Um, in 2017, suicide was the number one cause of death for men under the age of 54. You know, I, I don't know what it is today, 5 years later, but I think there's a lot in And, and now we're—

now I'm starting to talk on things that I've just heard and I haven't read actual, like, studies on, which can be perpetuating something that's not true sometimes. But yeah, I've heard men are leading candidates on a lot of that stuff. A lot of suicides, a lot of depression, a lot of things I wouldn't have thought.

Short, short answer, guys: you need to find purpose. Yeah, find a purpose bigger than you.

All right, we are, we are long in. You know how long it's gonna take me to edit this? Um, all right, so closing remarks from the fallible man.

Surround yourself with people that want to go the same place you do. If you want to be a great father, surround yourself with great fathers. If you want to be a great husband, surround yourself with men who value being a husband and try to be good husbands. If you want to be a good man, just surround yourself with men who are trying to grow and continue to grow and improve yourself. One of the greatest things I've learned in the last 2 years or year and a half of, uh, doing The Foul Old Man— I've interviewed multi-millionaire entrepreneurs to businessmen to, you know, everyday Joes— and one thing I consistently find in everybody who is quote-unquote successful, as a lot of people define success, whether that's money or otherwise successful as in they're happy with their life and where they're going, They find mentors, they find other men who are moving in the same direction because we need that brotherhood. So if you want to be the best version of yourself, you got to find people who also want to grow. If you want to excel, if you want to grow, you have to create the environment where that's possible. No one's going to do it for you. No one's coming to save you. No one's gonna make it better for you. Take control of yourself. Take ownership for who you are and make the choice and go, man. Find, find the 100% Dad podcast. Find any number of resources, whether you're a podcast guy or a book guy or a YouTube guy. Go find something and surround yourself with people who are talking about the things that you want to achieve.

Well said. Thanks for coming on. I do appreciate it. Sorry I kept you up so late. Oh, you didn't. It's 11 o'clock here, but you're like, what, you're just about to have lunch over there, I think.

Here, so you're good. No, man, thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.

Thanks, it was a fun one. Bye. This is 100% Dad. Find our current tour schedule on 100dad.com, 100dad.com, on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and more at 100- 100 Dad, 100 Dad, email Townsend at 100dad.com.