Building World-Class Insurance Producers with Pat Corrigan

Hey. Hey.

Welcome back to Bullpen Sessions. My name is Andy Neary and this is episode 305. Today I am joined by Patrick Corrigan. Patrick is the founder of Palladium Point, a premier recruitment firm laser focused on the commercial insurance brokers industry. With a 15 year track record in talent acquisition, Patrick has spent the last seven years revolutionizing how top tier insurance brokers approach their most critical asset, human capital. At Palladium Point, Patrick and his team orchestrate partnerships with ambitious insurance bro, connecting them with elite producers. I wanted to have Patrick join today's episode because I think he provides a really unique perspective on how producers can up level their game and how sales directors and sales managers can attract the top producers in the insurance industry today. In. In this episode, here's what you can expect to learn. Number one, proactive career management tips for producers, including how to overcome career plateaus, what the best producers are doing to achieve success, the habits, the practices they approach or they use every week, how producers can expand their networks and build meaningful industry relationships, and then the importance of leveraging things like specialization, building a personal brand, all things I am passionate about. On top of it, he shares some golden nuggets for sales leaders who are looking to attract the best producers. You will learn what it means to be a career fiduciary, a word we love to use in the insurance industry. So a lot of great information from Patrick today on how to become a better advisor in the industry, how to stand out to be attractive to some of the best and top firms in the industry, and what you can do as a sales leader today to recruit the best in the game. It's not about hiring 10 people, hoping three stick. It's about trying to hit a home run with everybody you hire. So tune in to today's episode, you'll love the conversation and again, you're going to pick up some absolute golden tips on how you can elevate your career or go find the next producer for your agency. All right, here we go. Episode 305. Patrick Corrigan. Hey.

Hey.

Welcome back to the podcast. Today I have got Pat Corrigan on with me. Pat is the founder of Palladium Point in or just outside of St. Louis, Missouri. Pat, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks Andy, appreciate it. I even got the hey hey intro. I know that's your trademark opener so.

It feels to keep it consistent. We're all about consist here, man. This is gonna be a good conversation because you come from the world of insurance recruitment and you're, I shouldn't say probably you are the first insurance recruiter I've ever had on the podcast. But I think this would be a really, this is gonna be a really fun conversation for our listeners who are tuning in. Because where I want to take this today is not so much how a producer can get recruited. It's more about with all the conversations you're having with the big firms out there, who you are helping recruit for.

What should an advisor do to. To improve their career, to improve their stature in the industry? Whatever we want to, wherever we want to go with that. But I think you're going to offer a lot of good tips, especially for producers who may have hit. May have hit a career plateau, may feel stuck right now. So I'm really excited about this conversation. But before we go there, love for the audience to hear a little bit about your background. You know, I talk to people. Most of us did not get in the insurance industry by design. Somebody said we should give this thing a shot. What was your experience like?

Yeah, I mean it's very similar. I'm a career recruitment and talent acquisition professional. So I've been at it 15 years. The back half of that, the past seven or eight has been in the insurance industry. So I was the first producer recruiter hired at Lockton, so the world's largest privately held insurance broker. Coming into that, I had no idea what a producer did. I barely knew much about commercial insurance. So after spending, gosh, it's probably six, nine months interviewing with them, meeting executives, meeting the big producers here in St. Louis, I got really in depth understanding of what this industry is all about. It totally changed my perception of what I thought it would be. And so after going through a long journey with these guys, I said this is something unique, it's different, let's give it a shot. And so I spent a ton of time getting to know these guys. I ended up spending five years at Locked In. So I worked under some of the best producers in the industry, grew a total affinity for the industry as a whole. The level of talent that I was engaging with every day and then so rewind two years ago, a lot of soul searching and a lot of kind of self discovery to think what's my long term vision here? And it's a lot of what I do as a recruiter is help people think about what is your long term game, what's your why, what's your driving force, all that. I realized I had entrepreneurial spirit in me that I think I just needed to come out and so launched my own search firm two years ago. We've been growing really fast over the past two years. Built a big team here, working with some great clients and great people over the past few years, are having an absolute blast. And everything we do is in the insurance industry. Both PNC benefits and almost everything is directly with producers, advisors and sales consultants.

I'm curious, I took that same leap, you know, in 2021. Even before 2021, it was kind of a side hustle, but I went all in on it in 21, going out on my own. Since doing that yourself, what are some of the biggest lessons you've learned? Starting your own business versus doing what you do for somebody else?

Definitely there's a lot of great question, there's a lot of parallels with, I think what a good producer does. And so I've realized the value of coaching, mentorship, guidance, outside advisors. Like, I knew I was a good recruiter, but I had never owned a business. I was an okay manager, an okay leader, but I was really good at working with clients, recruiting candidates, like guiding them through the recruitment process. But what I didn't understand was the big picture of what it really means to be a business owner and an entrepreneur. So I've relied heavily on like outside guidance. And I think a lot of the best producers I've ever interacted with have coaches, they have sales coaches, they have executive coaches, leadership coaches. And so I kind of took what I learned at Lockton and said, I gotta apply this to my own business, my own life, to really become the best I can be. So my number one thing was, is the outside guidance and coaching. I know obviously you know that from your profession and the importance that that can bring. And so that was number one. Number two, it ain't easy. Like, I've got a young family, my wife was a part time nurse. At the time, I knew there was no plan B, there was no going back to what I was doing. I had to make this work. And so it just took a lot of grit, tenacity, resilience, all the thing. I think a good producer and an advisor has. I had to really embody that and every day kind of show up, be disciplined, lead by the front with my new team and stuff. So it wasn't easy. And it's not easy every day brings new challenges. But I think, you know, surrounding yourself with a great team, having great, great outside counsel and coaching and expertise and peers has been absolutely huge. And then just showing up every day and working hard and trying to, you know, bring value and help people and help the companies that we we represent.

It ain't sexy, is it? It's, it's, it's showing up every day and putting in the work most people don't want to.

That's exactly right.

I, I'd be curious, you know, the way you just described yourself and, you know, you recruit producers or help. Help firms recruit producers. Do you often see a lot of those same characteristics in the producers that you see often recruited at the highest level? For example, when I, we work with advisors, I, I often look and say, okay.

This person, though they may be a producer for somebody else, they think like an entrepreneur or a term we use today, Intrapreneur. Right. You're still an entrepreneur, but technically working for somebody else where they invest in themselves. They are looking for that mentorship, that coaching. You know, it's not uncommon in our industry for people to be like, well, I'm going to see if my boss will just invest for me or pay for me. Do you often find those same traits you see in yourself apply to the best producers that you're often recruiting for the big firms?

Thousand percent? Yeah. I mean, I look at us as a producer. I think they're entrepreneurs, you could say intrapreneur entrepreneur. But at the end of the day, they should be building and managing their own business within the platform that they represent. Right? So they're part of the greater culture and accretive to the brand and the broker that they represent. But really, at the end of the day, it comes down to them building and growing their own practice within the consultancy or brokerage that they're, that they're a part of. So, absolutely, I would say in the top three to five traits I think a good producer has to embody, I'd put that entrepreneurial spirit up there at the very top. You know, taking calculated risks, being independent, being accountable, you know, all those things, you have to, you have to have it. I mean, being a producer, it's the hardest job in insurance. And so you got to, you got to be able to show up every day and do those things and have that kind of mindset that that's what the elite have. And if you don't, you don't have that, this industry can chew you up and you'll be out pursuing something else. So you almost have to embody that, that entrepreneurial spirit, the grit, the tenacity to show up every day and make it happen, despite it being very challenging.

Talk about that a little bit. You know, the best producers, I, I look at it from our end. We get to coach some of the best. And I can tell you real quickly, they, there's some pretty common traits between habits and, and, and things they're doing that separate them from the best. I always say, you know, a lot of our best clients, Pat, are former college athletes, sometimes pro athletes. And I think what separates them is the discipline. They don't need to be told to work out, they just need to know what the workout is. They don't need to be told to watch game film. They just need to know what to look for. For when you look at the best that you recruit. What are some of the common. I know you mentioned on some of them already, but what are some of the common habits or traits you see in the top producers?

Definitely. So we kind of hit, I think that the intangibles that everybody knows, I can breeze through. It's the stuff you've mentioned, discipline, grit, resilience. You have to be able to roll with the punches in an industry that's really tough. It's extremely competitive. There's market conditions that fluctuate all the time. So you have to be able to get back up if you get knocked down. Outside of those. I look at people and you preach this all the time with your content. It's how can you be a consultant, an advisor, the antithesis of the transactional salesperson. So somebody who's got emotional intelligence, is good at storytelling, solving problems. Being super curious, I think is one of the most important traits, is genuinely being curious about somebody's business, like what's going on, what are you experiencing, what are your three to five year goals, how can I, or if I can potentially help you accomplish those. So if you come into it with that transactional mindset of hey, I've got to drive this much revenue and hit this quota, I think you're missing the mark. I think the best have that consultative advisory type DNA and be able to sort of attach from any outcomes, knowing that I have to do it's in the best interest of my clients and the prospects that they're pursuing and that's how you ultimately stand out. So, you know, again, self motivation, independence, I think a big one these days and I know you've had previous guests on that talk about this and I talk about it all the time with my team and clients we work with is specialization. So whether that's industry specialization, it could be products, it could be on the benefit side, cost containment, different funding arrangements. On the PNC side, it could be verticals or products. But being an expert at what you do is so important. I look back at my own business like two years ago. If you looked at a business plan that I had, it was laughable because I was thinking, oh, I can chase all these different relationships, I have all these different industries. But I'm thankful every day I didn't because I said, no, I'm going to double down on what I know and the network that I've built because I love it, I know it, and I think there's a huge opportunity. So I took that into practice. I said, all we're going to do is this and we're going to be the best damn recruiting agency out there for people who need our support doing that. And I think the same goes for producers. Like being an absolute student of the game. Trade publications, conferences, seminars, webinars, like doing all that to put yourself out there as a real thought leader and advisor. I see the really, really good ones are doing that at scale instead of just like being a generalist and kind of chasing the next bor.

Yeah. You know, we get messages all the time from people on LinkedIn that are like, hey, I know I'm not in the insurance industry, but I really think what you do could benefit me too. Do you work with people outside the industry? And like you, we could easily transition outside those lines, but we don't feel that there is a need. You know, specialization, I think it really gives you an advantage, especially when it's an industry we come from. And I had likewise. I had a client on a few episodes ago who is a regional sales director and he said the same thing. When they're looking for producers, that's one of the first things they look for is does this person have a specialization where they can become a subject matter expert in a certain niche. So I think what you just, I want everybody to hear who's listening. I hope they heard that because the days of being in the jack of all trades are, I think are done.

Yeah, I mean I can give you a direct example. Just two weeks ago I caught up with an old mentor of mine. He's got a eight figure personal book of business. And I said, how in the world have you grown? Last year's 20%, it's always double digit growth year over year. And he's been at it for a long time. But I asked him that question. I was like, what are you doing to grow at this clip and retain your, your block of clients? And his answer was so simple. He's like, I know my stuff. I just know the industries he serves. He serves two industry verticals that's it and knows it inside and out. So if he's paired up, I said this example recently on a LinkedIn content I put out. It's like if you're paired up on a golf course for somebody going 18 holes and they're a CFO of a vertical that you pursue and know you should be able to talk to that person for five hours about everything that's going on in their life and their business. And this guy knows that extremely well. And it's what's enabled him to grow so fast and so long is because all of his contacts are in that space. All of his cois kind of touch that space. And therefore it's just every single year contributed more and more growth. But he's invested decades building this knowledge base. So it's not a quick fix of like all of a sudden I'm going to be the next private equity or health care or, you know, manufacturing producer. It's studying it and putting in the reps every single day, week and year. Knowing that. I love the book by Simon Sinek, Infinite Game. I always apply it to what we do here and what I think a producer does. Like, you got to look at this as a long game. Establish yourself as the best out there and know that in 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, it's the best gig you can possibly have. Because all that's going to come back to you and you'll find yourself living a lifestyle that not every sales position can enable.

Yeah. You know, for those who haven't read the book Infinite Game, I mean, what he's saying is the finite game has rules, it has players, it has a beginning and it has a, has an end. And I think a lot of people in the industry play a finite game. Right. They're looking every year, they have a sales goal, they have numbers they have to meet. Where the best play the infinite game, where there's one rule, keep the game going right. And the best think in terms of years, not weeks. And I think that's a big, big lesson I wish more producers could learn is when you're thinking in years, your strategy is going to be very different than when you're trying to constantly create short term wins.

Yeah. And, and it's damn hard to do. Right, because.

And it's hard to do in our industry, especially if you're selling commercial or employee benefits. The sales cycle isn't short.

Right.

If you're spending all your time trying to create quick wins, man, it can become a very frustrating career for sure. Which is a good Segue to. You know, I have to imagine when you're working with your clients who are trying to recruit producers, you may find a producer who is stuck in their career, maybe thinking a change of environment is going to.

Change their fortune. What are some of the telltale signs? Like, do you look for some warning signs? You know, I always talk about the producers who jump to the new next salary guarantee every two years. Do you look, what are some of the warning signs you look for as a recruiter where you're like, yeah, I don't know if this producer is the right fit.

Yeah, well, here's where I go with that. So if I'm thinking from the lens of the producer, some of the plateaus that I think people should be thinking about are the most. Number one is revenue stagnation. Right? So if you're just like steadily growing, but you think your potential could be significantly higher, well, it's probably a good time to pop up and have a conversation or at least even think about like, hey, am I in the right spot for the next 1, 3, 5, 10 years, whatever your Runway is? So if you, you know, if you've got these big aspirations yet the team that you're with or the resources or the depth of the brand can enable you to hit those, well, that's probably a sign it may be time to kind of move up or think about is where I'm at junior varsity and I need to be on the varsity. Well, what is varsity? And that's where working with a specialist can help you think through some of those things. But number one is revenue stagnation. Number two, some of these things we call internally triggers. So we call them like, hey, if these things happen to a producer, oftentimes that, that leads them to at least evaluate where they're at. And you see a ton of consolidation in the industry, a lot of M and A activity. Sometimes those are good for producer, sometimes they're not. So you always got to be aware of like, hey, what does this mean for my long term potential? We always hear about client service support. Obviously bringing in new clients is so damn hard. Retaining them with great bench strength behind you is a extremely important thing for producers. So always evaluating, do I have the right team behind me to service the accounts that I'm out winning? Right. Sometimes there's leadership changes, there's cultural changes where you may have joined a firm because of this culture, this team. Well, if they leave, the ownership group changes. Well, all of a sudden that can change. And you might need to pop up and say, Is this what I signed up for or is there something that might be aligned better to my philosophies and my values and the vision for where I see myself and my team and the industry going? So to me, it's all about like the term we use, we call proactive career management. You always want to be proactively thinking, is this the optimal place for me to build my career? You know, I always say to candidates you work with, you owe it to yourself, your clients and your family to pop up every now and then and just do some self reflecting. And, you know, there's never any. It's one of those industries where it's an ongoing thing. There's never a pressure about this broker needs to fill this one producer role, then it's closed, then they kind of move on. No, it's an ongoing thing. And so for the producer, it should be the same thing. You should always be evaluating every quarter, semi, annually, yearly, do a reflection saying, am I, Is this optimal in every aspect of where I want my professional career? And if not, there's a lot of shifting in the industry. There's a lot of agencies and brokers and consultants doing some really cool things that, yeah, we always encourage people, just pop your head up every now and then, have a conversation and explore the market. You're not being disloyal. You know, just because you take a call doesn't mean you're unhappy or you're looking to move. It's simply market research and professional networking.

I mean, I guess you could probably argue that the best time to take a conversation is when things are going well, you know, because if you're a producer behind your sales goals, feel like you're caught and stuck in a corner right now, your career, you're stuck. That's where you're probably more apt to make an emotional decision that, say, in a rational decision just to get away from where you are and it might appear that the grass is greener and then you get to the other side and you're going, wait a second, this grass is just as brown as it was over here. And I've seen that happen time and time again. You know, I've been part of those agencies, Pat. And one thing that I find interesting, you know, I've had this conversation before with producers. I've had people say this to me. I'm afraid to make too many changes because I'm afraid of what it's going to look like in my resume, in my view on this. And I know it might not be the popular View is whenever I hear that, I say, listen, let me ask you a question. If you're a sports fan, could we argue a guy like Nick Saban is the greatest college football coach ever? Yeah. I said, okay, how many jobs did he have before he became the head coach at Alabama? If you go look at his resume, he probably had 12 different coaching stops before he became the greatest college football coach anybody has ever seen. And I say that I share that because I'm like, listen, if every move you're making in your head is a move that gets you closer to where you can achieve your greatest success, honestly, I don't care how many changes you make to make that happen. But don't be afraid to make a move if you're too afraid of what it will look like on the resume. If it's a move you think that's going to get you closer to optimizing your full potential. What are your thoughts about that?

Yeah, I mean, you absolutely nailed it. I was smiling because a lot of what you just said, I use the exact same vernacular and verbiage with my team and the people we talk to. Yeah, I mean, I think you absolutely nailed it. Because when we look at somebody's career journey.

Every move, like as long as you're doing your diligence to the best of your abilities, you're not going to nail them every time. If everybody did, I wouldn't be in business. Right. So there's always going to be those where, you know, you go somewhere and something changes, right? You may lose your best ae, you might get a new leadership, you might, your firm might get sold to, you might get merged. There's so much changes happening that you should never be worried of, like what the image of your resume or the moves you've made is, because it's simply not. I'm not going to flip flop here. If you have a track record of doing it every year for an extended period of time, you may need to kind of look in the mirror and say, all right, is it me or is it the firm? Right? Because at some point it becomes, well, you know, are you rushing? Are you not evaluating things thoroughly? Are you jumping for a higher draw or base salary? So there's always those kind of things. But if you can talk through your story and say, look, I joined this company, I grew my book from here to here. This happened. I needed to evaluate things to put myself in the best interest of my clients. So I made this move. Then this happened. It's just a story, right? Like nobody's story is going to be this perfect.

You know, hockey stick, like, linear, perfect growth, and nothing ever happened. That's just not the reality. And especially in this industry that is changing so much. So I always encourage people and the term we use, you'll see it on my LinkedIn content all the time. It's a career fiduciary. So I don't look at us as like a headhunter. You know, a transactional recruiter is just trying to make a placement fee. We're guiding people through what's in their best interest and in our client's best interest. And that means that we drove revenue and made a placement and everything worked out great if it didn't. And I encourage somebody to pursue something that didn't have my best interest or my client's best interest because I think it's in their best interest to say, hey, go here for a couple of years, gain some more experience, work under some great mentors, and then let's, like, come back, because then you're kind of ready for the next step up. Then that's great. And it goes back to the infinite game thing of, like, I'm in this forever. And I think everybody should be viewing their career as forever. It's like you might need to make some moves to put yourself in a position to really hit it big. And that might take, you know, changing business cards and wearing different jerseys to get yourself to that point where you're. You're really ready to thrive and kind of max out your potential.

So I've got two questions there I'd love to ask you. One is for a producer. One is for the agent, the sales leader. So with that being said, I love what you just said there, because I think, unfortunately, what you see happen from time to time from the recruiting side of things is an agency will bring in 10 producers, know that three will succeed, and then they'll just keep running that process over and over again. Bring in 10, three will go, three will succeed, seven will leave. Do it again. You said career fiduciary, which tells me, no. My goal is every man or woman I'm trying to recruit. I want to make sure they're a success. I want to make sure they're going to become a successful piece of. Of this firm I'm recruiting for, because that firm's probably paying them a nice chunk of money to come work for them. And I think that's important for agency sales leaders to hear. This isn't a cattle call of how many producers can we bring in, Knowing the numbers are just going to say so many will succeed. How can sales leaders. That's what I wanted to ask you, Pat. What should sales leaders look for when recruiting a good producer so they can try to hit as many home runs as they possibly can with each new recruit?

Yeah, definitely. So before going to the answer, I use the 10, 30% ratios all the time. And if you think about the damage that that does, it's common knowledge and, but yet we still see firms hire in droves and not assess people and do their diligence, the damage that that's doing in the market is substantial. Right. So you're thinking about who are these people, these producers who are not going to make it? What's the message in the market? What's it doing to our brand from a talent perspective? This is such a tight knit industry where if you're a producer and you see this other broker hiring a ton of producers and they all flame out in a year or two, well, immediately that reputation of that firm is damaged. And well now you've lost that. If that keeps up and keeps going for a while, you, you lose some really talented people. Their, their interest in potentially joining your firm. So getting it right. Obviously I don't say this to a sales error because they understand is of the utmost importance. Is it hard? It's extremely hard. That's why we, we kind of represent.

A lot of firms who are ambitious about hiring and so we're always guiding them through some best practices around how to attract and retain people. Right. So it takes, and my team knows it's like the process in order to run a really good process. I think for a broker to hire a good producer, it's gotta be extremely thorough. Like you have to have, you know, a lot of conversations, lot of business planning exercises, personality assessments, you know, cultural alignment. There's just like if you rush through a process and say, hey, I'm gonna meet this producer for coffee, introduce them to the, you know, market leader, sales leader, and let's, let's roll out an offer. I think you're missing the opportunity to really evaluate who somebody is and make the best bets possible. And that means it's a time commitment. I mean, it's a huge time commitment. I know some of the sales leaders you've had on your podcast, like they have P and L responsibility. They have a huge team of producers. They have a goal of having to grow revenue and grow headcount. So it takes like either partnerships with teams like us who can like do a lot of the front end evaluation and quote unquote selling of their brand to them to kind of get people warmed up. But it's. Yeah, I mean it's, it's a huge time commitment and you have to be doing it every single day. We talked about the reps. Like, I think the best sales leaders are ones that are every day either working with talented recruiters to get access to people, or they're just out there every day themselves. Who's the up and comer at a competitor? How can I get in front of them? How can I nurture relationships with my competitors so they can be on the front lines trying to poach from their competitors? You almost have to map out org charts and say, all right, this is my biggest competitor. Who are their best producers and I need to know who they are and not try to poach them and not try to say, hey, you got to come work for me. But just you get to know them. It's networking. It's what are you all about? What makes you tick? What are your long term goals? If you're content, great. If not, we should keep in touch because things change and would love to maintain this dialogue. And you gotta do that at scale and maintain those relationships, stay organized and every single day, week, show up and try to build relationships with people. Because I just think it's the only way you can possibly grow at the clip you want to grow is by always having a pipeline of talented folks.

That's actually really good advice and I don't want to make you repeat yourself there. But, you know, it's something I didn't even think about going into this episode, which is, okay, we spent a lot of time talking about the characteristics and the traits and the habits of the best producers. But like you just said, as a sales leader, you've got to have a consistent pipeline of recruits. So what is your advice to the sales leader that might be listening into this episode? What can they be doing on a weekly basis to make sure that their, their pipeline of potential recruits is full?

Yeah, definitely it. When I started at Lockton, I made a trip to the global headquarters in, in Kansas City and I. It was an awesome experience. I got to meet all the shareholders and the executives and stuff. And they were still to this day, seven years ago, something stood out that the CEO told me, goes, you know what you. He didn't know who I was or what I did introductory me. He goes, oh, so you produce producers. So that's a great, it's a great term. And it stuck with me as I think of how I embody Kind of like what I do and the value that I bring. And I kind of think a sales leader needs to do the same thing. So if you think about being a producer of producers, we think about what does a good producer do? Well, they show up every day, they're active, they should create content. They should make themselves like an employer of choice or for the producer, a producer of choice, meaning I bring credibility. I have expertise. That sales leader needs to be out in the market pushing out that story every day. And it should be, I mean, you can. I know some that have activity goals where every week I need to send 10 emails to competing producers. So I need to put out two pieces of content. Why? Our firm has a great culture and a great comp model or, you know, whatever those value add kind of selling points are. And so you almost need to like reframe yourself of like. All right, if I'm going to produce producers and I have to build a pipeline, what the heck am I going to do to make that happen? It starts with activity, start to the brand starts with a value prop content. Like all the stuff we talked about, what a good producer does. I think a good recruiter and a good sales leader for that matter has to do the same thing. You have to, you have to approach it just like a producer does with building their book of business. You're building a pipeline of talent instead of building a prospect. A pipeline of like prospects and clients. Same thing.

Yeah. I love what you just said there because, you know, we'd say it all the time with our, with content, it not only can become a lead generation machine for sales, it can become the best recruiting weapon you'll ever have. You know, I've been fortunate with the content we've created. Most of the people on my team right now are people that came to me wanting to work for us, not the other way around. And I think what you just said is spot on. We have sales leaders all the time. Pat, reach out and say, well, you know, you know, I want, I want you to, I'd love for you to teach our producers how to use LinkedIn better and create content more effectively. I was like, cool. And. But they, they, they don't put themselves in that same category.

Right.

I'm like, hold on a second. You need to be creating content too and building that brand awareness because that's going to become your recruiting tool a hundred percent.

And it can't always, you'll actually, you'll.

Actually have producers want to come work for you.

Exactly. But if you make it all about, hey, here we just won best place to work and this and that. That's. That's kind of table stakes. But I think the best are the ones that are like telling stories again, going back to producer. I think the best producers are storytellers. I help this client do this. Here's why I can help you do that. But if you could tell a story like, hey, we recruited this producer from this firm. They were stuck here, now they're doing this. Like, those are the kind of stories we tell every day in the market of like, hey, we just recruited this person, they built this book, they got from here to here. And here's what I think we can do for you when you're ready. It doesn't, it's not now. It may be down the road. It could be next quarter, next year. It doesn't matter. I'm not going anywhere. And I think that's what the employer value prop needs to be too of like, there should be no expectations whatsoever in this. It should just be about, I want to get to know you, who you are, what makes you tick and where do you want to go in life and if I can help you get there. If not, then let's stay in touch.

What you just referred to we call the live case study.

Sales leaders should be producing content, talking about the new producers they just hired within the last year or so, why the producer decided to come to work for them. And if the producer is having success, share the success the producer's having. I mean, that kind of case study right there is more powerful than anything a sale, any other thing a sales leader could do right now. Give me an example of what it will look like to be a producer at your agency and I'm going to be pretty intrigued to want to know more for sure.

Yeah. And again, to double click on that. It's not about reposting the corporate posts, right? It is. No, this is authentic. In my own words. I'd rather see typos.

You are producing. Yes.

I'd rather see typos and grammatical errors. No AI, no reposting corporate stuff of just like, I'm going to tell you my own words, what we did and what we're all about. And if that resonates with people, great. They're going to come to me and it's going to be again, the long game.

Yes.

But it can't just be the kind of recycled kind of corporate stuff. If anything, content sides got to be authentic. I mean, you've inspired me a hell of a lot. Whether you Know it or not, with a lot of stuff you've done every day, putting it out there. And I've upped my game over the past couple months of putting out content. I know that it's not about right now, but it's going to be just establishing my team and myself as a thought leader in this space. And I'm going to stick with it. I'm going to be consistent every single day. You're going to see me. And hopefully, you know, down the road it's going to yield some opportunities, but if not, I'm having fun with it. And it's just a new mechanism of, like, developing awareness and, you know, building rapport and credibility.

Yeah, it's about building brand and awareness as that sales leader. Right. Whether you like it or not, you are a brand and people just want you to be human. They don't want you to be perfect. You don't need to be perfect. Just let us know. Let us, let us get to know you. Because if you put out that content as a sales leader, what's going to happen is over time, producers, the right producers are going to be, you know what, I can work for this guy. I can work for this woman. She's pretty cool. And before you know it, you have producers reaching out to you. I'll share this, Pat. This just happened to me. I did a workshop two weeks ago and it was for an association of agencies all under the umbrella of one bigger agency. And their whole team was there. And. And two days after I put the workshop on, one of their employees actually messaged me on LinkedIn and said, Hey, I think I actually would like to work for you. Do you have any. Do you have any spots open? And that's what I'm talking about is any sales director could do that same thing if they're just willing to put out content that lets people get to know them and talks about the success their producers are having. What's going to happen is over time, the right people out there, the right producers are going to resonate with that and eventually they're going to want to come work for you, which makes your job of recruiting so much easier.

So much easier. I mean, that's an awesome story. I had the same thing happen to me last week is with a. I got to make sure I scrub this. I'd say a top 15 agency book of business is probably million 5 to 1.7 or so. So really on top of their game. Like, a really, really good producer took a call with me and was like, he goes, I Feel like I'm talking to a celebrity and I think I got a lot of humility here. I go, what are you talking about? He goes, oh, I just see your content on LinkedIn over the past couple months. It's cool to actually talk to you. I'm like, well, that's really flattering. But it's like, I'm just doing this because a, I enjoy it, I know it. I'm hopeful that I can give back and share some wisdom and intel and perspective on what we see because we got a really broad lens on this industry. And so when he said that, I, I shot a slack to my team. I go, this guy just said this, we gotta be always. If, if this didn't reinforce the value of like a social brand or personal brand, I don't know what would because he probably wouldn't have taken a call, may have not responded to an email or LinkedIn DM or whatever, but he'd just seen my face, hit his feet a bunch of times. He's been, now we're kind of building rapport and exploring what's potentially next for him and his, his career. So it just, you know, it takes an investment showing up and doing it, getting a little vulnerable. But, you know, the, the opportunity that it can do just to scale your voice and your, your, your brand is, it's infinite. Who knows?

You never makes life easier if you're willing to put it out there. It makes, it makes your job of growing your business easier.

Yeah.

Whether. Whether that's sales or finding the right producer. I got one more question for you, Pat. You know, we are in an industry that is still pretty old by, by the average age, I think the average age is still in the upper 50s. Push. We've a big retirement in the next few years. What are your thoughts as far as recruiting goes? How do we get younger people, you know, young people in their 20s to get more interested in this industry? Any suggestions?

Yeah, it's a great question and it is, I'd say it's unprecedented where this industry is from a secession and kind of perpetuation perspective. Right. So the bulk of you think you've got decades and decades and decades of revenue, client relationships, leadership, intellectual capital in the baby boomer generation who are going to be retiring soon. And I think if an agency or brokerage doesn't have a plan of how they're going to manage that and get ahead of that, they are extremely vulnerable to their competition. So that's number one. That's not the answer to how do we get younger professionals into this. But it is a real thing. And I see, I work with a lot of organizations, some are really on top of it and have like three to five year out plans of how they're going to manage that and retain those clients and pass on that, you know, that intellectual capital and stuff. But I also have seen some that aren't and I don't know, we'll see kind of what, what happens with those. But it's a huge, huge tipping point right now. I'd say over the next it's called one to five years. It's huge. But from an industry perspective, you know, I think when you think of a millennial, a Gen Z, I think that it needs to be portrayed as. Because the reality is you're a problem solver consultant that has massive financial opportunity if you're successful. So when I look back when I was interviewing at Locton, I had no idea what a producer did. And it's just because I wasn't surrounded by them. I didn't pursue it in college. They weren't in my circle at the time. But once I started to learn about it and what they do and the high performance kind of mindset and just the pursuit of like mastery and the growth mindset and all these intangibles that these people have, I mean it changes the course of my life and my career without question if I didn't find this industry. And I think I'm like the closest producer to not being a producer. So I sort of like bucket myself into being a producer even though I've never sold a bor because it's all I've done for seven years. So I'd like to think I know a day in the life and I know what it entails and what it can bring to someone. So I mean, I think it starts young because you know how it is. It takes three to five years to really start to build up and get some momentum. So I think a broker has to have a good entry point for talent to come in. You have to have a really well defined mentorship program, training opportunities. You got to get like producers who are selfless and bought into like wanting to give back and sort of pass on their wisdom that the insurance industry created amazing opportunities for them. So you want people who are like genuinely want to give back, right, to kind of pass that on. And I. But I think the overall industry, it just needs to be shown as this is not like, not a knock against, you know, your, your kind of personal lines or your, your kind of brick and Mortar personal agents like this. When you think of commercial and employee benefits and total rewards, that is a really sophisticated consulting and advisory type of role. And it needs to be looked at. You got to sort of like bifurcate this industry. The commercial side is an extremely attractive industry financially. You know, stimulation of your consultative abilities, relationship building, active listening, all those things. It somehow we have to just get the word out to, you know, college age or entry level people. Like, you're going to have to invest a lot of time into this. But if you do and you're supported, your career can go into an area that I've seen what it can do to people. And I know for a fact there's no other sales role that can enable the financial success. The ability to work with big organizations on complex problems. There's nothing else like it. But it's just the optics are that it's kind of old and stale and not that sexy. So I think it's like it's got to be an industry wide sort of revolution of how do we all get in front of the next wave of talent? And I can tell you, my team's on the front line doing that. Do we love to work with the big book producer? Absolutely. That's probably 80% of what we do are people who know what they're doing. They have a track record, they have a book. The other 20% is like, how can we get in front of your one to two year grinder who's like trying to make something happen, build relationships with them, watch them flourish. If they don't, how can we help you kind of get into it and get you in a better spot to get going? So we love that kind of stuff. My team is young, very ambitious people. So we want to like establish that peer to peer relationships with those people who are just getting started. Because I want to be. I think it'd be so cool to be able to look back in, you know, a decade and say, wow, we introduced this person to this firm and now they're the next sales leader or rainmaker. Because we kind of put that on their map and, you know, planted that seed and watched it, watch it grow. So that was a bit of a tangent. Hopefully there's some takeaways there for the audience of like, how can we all kind of.

I like to think about, I like to think that's why we exist. I mean, let's be honest, the insurance industry is not sexy.

Yeah.

And it's, it's outdated in many ways. And I think that's one of the reasons we're struggling to get young producers in is we're still. The way we're training them is the way we trained them 30 years ago. And I, I get excited with what we're doing to disrupt the industry a little bit, is trying to bring a new flair to it by teaching people how to grow brands. Because if you can teach young producers how to do it the way in a way that they've grown up, AKA social media, you can teach them how to actually build a brand awareness. You can build a personal brand. Now all of a sudden, the insurance industry can be looked at in a different light. Wait, you're telling me I can do this and have fun? Fun doing it? Yeah, you can. And to your point, Pat, it's a very lucrative career if you do it right.

For sure.

And that's, that's what we're trying to do is say, all right, guys, let's be honest, the way we're bringing producers into this world is a little stale and outdated. Let's try something new. Employee of mine mentioned this in our sales meeting or team meeting today. I thought it was so pertinent. She's like, we're the most relevant coaching in the industry today because we're teaching you how to do it today.

Yeah.

And I was like, that's exactly what I'm talking about. And that's how we get new producers in. They do things differently. They use. I wish I don't have my phone in front of me. They use technology differently. If you can teach them how to grow their business the way we can do it today, we're going to get a lot more younger people interested in this industry.

100%. Yeah. You said three letter word fun like this role should be. Is it a grind? 100%. But it can also be. It could be fun. It's financially lucrative. The autonomy you can have is unmatched. It doesn't exist in other, like SaaS kind of sales roles or whatever where you're constantly starting over every year. The residual model, the perpetuity, like the consultative it all that whole story just needs to be put out there more. Because I forget the name of the guest you had. He was doing community health plans and he had a really good story about just. Yeah, he. About how he kind of architected his lifestyle around his business. And I've seen that firsthand of people who make pro athlete money being a producer. Yet they operate how they want to operate because they're again going back to the entrepreneurial. Entrepreneurial topic like that is possible here. And again, I don't think there's many industries or opportunities where that exists.

No, Pat, this has been a great conversation, man. If we got a sales leader out there right now listening in saying, man, I could use Pat services to help us find better producers. What, what are the most effective ways to get in touch with you?

Yeah, appreciate. First of all, I appreciate you inviting me on this awesome chat heavy LinkedIn user. I mean, you can find me on LinkedIn. All my contact info is there, email, sell my calendly link, I put out content. You'll probably recognize this backdrop. I've made a big investment in my own personal brand and marketing, so I'm putting out short form videos. Short form content, long form content. We're going to spin up what we call the producer circle soon. It's gonna be a monthly newsletter, so tons of content out on LinkedIn. Find me there, shoot me a connection, request DM and would love to talk whether you're a broker, sales leader needing help. If you're a producer who's kind of hit a plateau, you're feeling a little stuck, you know, reach out anytime. We love having conversations. We talk about career fiduciaries. Never going to feel any pressure. There's never any expectations. Like we treat every conversation as like, what are you all about? 80% of the time the candidates talking, just sharing who they are. I'll share some ideas and perspective on stuff. We can get into opportunities with clients if you want. If not, if you just want to get to know what we're all about and what our take is on the market and build some rapport long term, I will have those conversations all day. It's kind of what still brings me a ton of energy doing what we do.

Awesome, Pat. And I'll finish with, I love the term career fiduciary. If you're, if you're looking to hire the best producers, not just any producers, Palladium points. Somebody you definitely want to get out, get in touch with. So Pat, thanks for the conversation. If you've been listening into this, I hope you took a lot of notes. Whether you're a producer or a sales leader who's in charge of finding more producers. There were a lot of nuggets shared today about how you can step up your career and look for, for the right producers to build your team. Pat, thanks again.

Awesome. Thanks, Andy. Appreciate it.

That's all we got for today's episode of the Bullpen Sessions podcast. One thing that would really help us both and other new potential listene for you to rate this show and leave a comment in itunes, Stitcher or wherever you tune in to listen to the show. Also, make sure to link up with us@completegameconsulting.com on social media. And please share this podcast with anyone who you think might enjoy it. Until next time. Remember, clarity creates confidence. Confidence creates consistency. Consistency makes you unstoppable.