How Great Agencies Build Sales Talent That Keep Scaling with James McMillan

I didn't save my son's life. I take no credit for that. If anybody did, it was my wife. But someone gave me that knowledge to be able to go out and make an impact. When I tell people, when I tell my customers, when I tell my clients, when I tell my other producers that our job matters, it 100% matters. Because companies out there today, especially in the middle market, are paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for an insurance policy, and their employees don't know how it can affect them.

Yeah.

Whether it be diabetes, heart, cancer, whatever it is, There are places they can access in the country that can change their outcomes. And that's my minimum standard. If you're not willing to bring that passion to the table, you're not going to work for us.

Hey, hey, welcome back to the Accelerate Your Insurance Sales Podcast. Andy Neary here, CEO and founder of Complete Game Consulting. I am excited today. I am joined by James McMillan, Chief Sales Officer at BHC Insurance in Fort Smith, Arkansas. Before becoming Chief Sales Officer, James served as Vice President Employee Benefits, where he helped lead organizational changes that contributed to significant growth in new business and divisional revenue. That experience continues to shape his approach. to leadership and organizational development. At the center of James' leadership philosophy is a strong belief in servant leadership. He believes leadership is not about title or authority, but about accepting responsibility for the people and organization you are trusted to lead. I knew there was something I liked about you. However, the most important title he carries is husband, followed very closely by father of 2 amazing kids. Before business leadership or any professional accomplishment, His family comes first. He is nothing. He says, "I am nothing without the people waiting for me at home and the support, perspective, and purpose they give me." James, welcome to the show, man.

Yeah, thank you. I need you to come everywhere with me. Prospect meetings. Can you just introduce me like that everywhere we go?

And walking into the room. Number sixteen in the program, but number one in your hearts.

Yeah, I was too small to wear a teen digit number. It did have to be one of those.

Just gonna say high school football. Did you play football?

I did a little bit. Yeah.

What was Uh, what was the position and the number?

You know, actually, favorite number still to this day, uh, number 41. I mean, it worked out well because I can be a little bit of a safety, defensive back, all the way up into the linebacker stage, and, and fullback on a bad day.

41 equals multiple, uh, multiple roles.

That's right.

Although today I don't think numbers matter.

No, you can do anything now.

Yeah, I actually saw The last weekend, randomly, I was at the gym and I think BYU was on the TV. The quarterback wears number 47.

Uh, throw 41 on and I'll root for the BYU.

That's just a random— you talk about a random number for— actually, I'll take that back. I think I like random numbers. Like, I've seen kickers who wear like 73.

Yeah, love it, love it.

Just means nothing. Like, 73 for a kicker makes zero sense. Hence why it's awesome. Well, let's, uh, let's dive into this, James. You know, you and I have gotten a chance to know each other a little bit, and you lead a team at BHC Insurance who's doing some great things down in Fort Smith, Arkansas, and, and Northwest Arkansas. Uh, you guys are expanding.

Yeah.

We're gonna get your thoughts on just kind of where we are in the industry right now. But a, a place I really like to start with when we talk to, uh, professionals in the industry, especially in benefits, is Most of us didn't get in this industry by design. How did you find yourself in insurance?

Go back to that introduction. I guess I fell in love. She's kind of the catalyst for everything. But, you know, growing up, I truly wanted nothing more out of life than to be a beach bum. I thought giving surf lessons or living on the beach in a shack was the most glamorous life you could have. No responsibility, no rules. Wake up, sleep, do whatever you wanted to. But as you get a little older or you find people that you care about maybe more than yourself, you know, you need to support those people and you need to build something bigger for them more than just yourself. And so I was working through life, uh, actually met my wife in high school. Um, took her probably 6 years to convince her to, uh, even talk to me. She didn't like me that much, but—

So this was your first real sale?

Exactly. So I, that's where I learned I was a good salesperson, but, uh, over time, just, Working job to job, make ends meet, trying to make my way through life. Ended up in retail management, was always a climber. So I got in that retail wing and was like, okay, what's the next promotion? What's the next promotion? What's the next promotion? And really had reached the pinnacle of that at a pretty young age of 24, running a team of 100 people working overnights. Uh, we'd go in at the 8 o'clock hour, get off at 8 AM in the morning, sometimes later, and was really just grinding. And that was kind of my capacity at the time. And I was exhausted going through things, and my father-in-law happened to be in the financial services industry, had come out of the insurance business and said, hey, you should spend more time with your family. He has a great quote, don't be too busy working to make money. Says it all the time. And he introduced me to Marty Clark, who is the president of our agency, and said, you guys ought to just talk. I think insurance could be a good career for you. Knew something about it. And I guess that was my second big sell was to Marty, who you've had the chance to meet. was able to convince him to at least take a chance.

You started on the benefits side. And when I was down, you know, I spent some time with the team with you a few weeks ago. You shared a story about kind of your son.

Yeah.

And really what, you know, I've said this a lot, James, you know, not that you want to wish this upon anybody, but the people in this industry, especially on the benefits side, who have a personal powerful healthcare story often have the most conviction around what they're doing as it relates to health insurance and employee benefits. And I think you have one of those stories. If you don't mind, share your son's journey with us and how that's impacted you and what you do today.

Absolutely. Only on one condition. If there's any tears, you gotta edit 'em out.

What's the old, by the way, what's the old, who's the guy that used to interview people? Roy Firestone. Remember Roy Firestone?

Yes.

He would interview athletes and they would cry. And that was like his metric of success.

It was—

can I get that athlete to cry?

Yeah. Well, no, I, I believe conviction in anything you do is, is very important. I've had the, the opportunity to get to know, uh, Billy Potter, who I think was on your podcast maybe a few months ago. And one thing I respect about him is his conviction in what they do. Day in and day out. And it's easy to say, but the why behind the conviction is what really drives you to be what you are and perform at that top level and go above and beyond. And so my story there comes to, take everybody back 10 years ago, pre-COVID, world was great, everything was booming, everything's going along. I had made the transition over to BHC here working in the benefits arena. And I had a 5-year-old daughter, beautiful wife as always, and she was expecting what was to be our son. And my daughter had started kindergarten and walking behind her in kindergarten, we noticed that she didn't— once they hit kindergarten, they don't walk anymore. They actually run. It's that little toddler trot goes away and it's a full-on good luck keeping up with them. But notice that she She happened to not run or quite move the same as all the other kids. I said, we ought to get that looked at. Turns out, we go to have CT, X-rays, all that jazz done, and her hip socket never developed.

Hmm.

So her femur was literally just kind of floating out there, bouncing in and out. And your body is so resilient, and especially a young body was able to control it where she could walk and she had no delays. But Um, it was something that had to be fixed. And that was kind of my first use. You know, as a young guy, you don't use insurance. You hope to never use it. I used to tell people, the only way I'm going to the doctor is if my wife takes me in the ambulance. But that was my first foray into insurance. And as we were looking and being in rural Arkansas, we wanted to make sure we provided my daughter with the best care. So we said, hey, where can we go? And we found a facility down in Texas that was fantastic, top-notch at that.

Wow.

We go down to Texas. My wife is now 7 months pregnant and my daughter has surgery, basically hip replacement surgery. They form an artificial hip, put it in there, and she's going to be in a body cast for 8 weeks.

Oh.

5 years old, she was the sweetest thing, but she couldn't move. I had to carry her everywhere she went. She had a little wheelchair that we could push her around in, but once she got into the house, that wheelchair didn't work. You had to kind of carry her everywhere. And I'll never forget because she couldn't sleep in a bed. Her legs were suspended in a way she couldn't lay flat. And so we had, If you've ever seen the Big Joe beanbags, they're just those huge beanbags. We had one laying on the living room floor, and so I laid in it and she would literally sleep on top of me. And I've still got scars on my knuckles and on my chest from where that cast would rub and be irritated. But I'll never forget laying on that beanbag and my wife, again, 7 months pregnant, says, something's wrong. And I'm like, there's a lot wrong right now.

What about this is right? Yeah.

Please explain. And it was an issue with her pregnancy. And so we're scrambling to get everybody up to the hospital and we get to the hospital and the good news was it was a solution that could be solved with delivery. So my son delivered almost 3 months early at that point in time, going through all this chaos and figuring it out. And he was a preemie, spent 2 months in the NICU and we were able to bring him home. And we're happy. We're a young family, young parents, young kids going through the grind. And life is hard no matter what, but life as a parent, I think, is one of the hardest things because it's one of those realizations that you're not that important anymore. Your job is to serve others and really help them reach the next level. But son developed along pretty quickly. Daughter finally gets out of the body cast. She's back in school. Everything's going good. And we noticed with my son, kind of a similar scenario as my daughter, there's a regression happening. What's going on here?

Yeah.

He went from a happy 1-year-old developing towards 2-year-old to all of a sudden he can't swallow, he can't move, he can't hold things. Start going to physicians to have that checked out and, nah, I don't know, or, oh, he's fine. You're just worried parents. Oh, this is okay. This is okay. This is okay. And my wife, the rock of our family, strong through all that and just said, okay, you're an idiot. I'm moving on to the next provider. By the time my son was 4, we had received 2 terminal diagnoses.

Wow.

Man, that's the worst news. And I hope that on no one ever. No parent should outlive their child. But me being a kind of pragmatist dealt with it my own way. And my wife being an eternal optimist and positive throughout said, no, this isn't right. I don't accept this. I don't believe this. And through our faith and everything, we just kind of continued on. And I was at work one day. And received a phone call from my wife at 5:30. She said, I need you to get home. I can't, I can't, I can't do this anymore. This is, this is wrong. You have to do something. And you know what, when you love somebody, you'll do anything for them. Um, that, that's my definition of true love.

Right.

And as a provider, my instant thought was, there's nothing I can do. A nurse had told her earlier that day that she needed to get comfortable with the fact that my son wasn't going to be here forever. And how do you fix that?

Yeah.

Well, you don't. And again, my conviction and my calling, the reason I believe I'm here is partly because of that. And now I have a mission to do something because of that. But I relayed onto the skills I had learned of, well, hey, look, I've got this son. My wife is begging me for a problem to fix. And I didn't fix anything. But what I did, I went to my resources. I started calling the vendors I had met, the medical providers I knew through the industry, and said, hey, this is what we know. Where should we go? Where's the best next third, fourth opinion? And turns out, uh, kind of in your backyard, Mayo Clinic topped up as top pediatric neurology. We knew something neurological was going on. I called them that next day. This was a Thursday night. I called them on Friday and said, hey, here's what we got going on. Here's what we've been through. And they said, okay, when can you be here? And again, my limited insurance knowledge at that point in time and my medical experience was, They'll have an appointment for me maybe 3 to 5 months, and then we'll go see what's going on. And I said, well, when's your first appointment? We'll take it. And they go, can you be here tomorrow? I'm like, well, tomorrow's Saturday. What are you talking about? And they're like, we think this is urgent. You need to get up here. We pack the car, drive Friday, um, all day.

Okay, that is not a short drive from Arkansas.

It's not. There's a lot of cornfields, a lot of nothing between here and there. But we get there, and again, it's, it's The expertise that the Mayo Clinic brings, but the confidence that they speak with and they say, here's what we need to do. We need to put him under anesthesia for full CT, MRIs, all this stuff. And we start to fight them and we say, well, you can't do that. We've been told that if he goes to sleep through anesthesia, he's probably not going to wake up. And not cocky or condescending tone from them. One of the nurse practitioners pointed to the logo on their chest and they said, we're Mayo Clinic.

Price tag.

We know what we're doing. It's going to be okay. And so just through faith, we followed that process. And an hour later, we're back with our son in recovery and fixing to load up and go to a hotel for that night that we didn't have booked at that point in time. And we get a phone call from neuro. And as a father, my first thought was, here it is. This is the bad news. And this was our last chance.

Mm-hmm.

And they say, we need you to come up. I believe it was like the 6th floor. Come up to the 6th floor right away. Crying the whole way up. I mean, just devastated. Can't console my wife. We meet with Dr. Edward Ahn, neurosurgeon, Mayo Clinic. Man, this guy's the man. And he explains to us what's going on. And my son suffered from a condition called Chiari malformation. It's essentially his brain was not in his skull. It was in the back of his neck, and it was clogging all the fluid that would normally drain from around your brain from actually draining and processing through the body like a normal body would operate. And they showed us these MRIs and these pictures of his head, and the pressure around his brain and his— that had created from all that fluid was why he had gone from a happy 1-year-old to, at almost 5 years old, essentially a vegetable or vegetative state where he couldn't hold anything, he couldn't swallow. Praise my wife to this day for just keeping him alive, keeping fluids in him.

Yeah.

him going. And they say, hey, here's what we need to do. We need to fix this. And we're like, first sigh of relief. This is fixable.

Yeah.

What a miracle. Praise God. Right? And again, lack of knowledge of how a true medical care system should operate. I say, okay, when do we come back? And I'll never forget Dr. Ahn's face was like, what do you mean when you coming back? We're doing this right now.

You're not leaving.

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, oh wait, what do you mean? You want us to sign off to have brain surgery? on my child. Um, and, you know, a lot of prayer, a lot of calls to people who love and support us, and, and we chose to move on. And, you know, I say I have, I have 2 kids, but I really have 3. I have my, my, my daughter and my son before the surgery, and I have a son after the surgery. And when I tell you that he went to sleep that night, woke up, had his procedure, where they essentially drilled a hole all the way through his head. He woke up a different kid, laughing, talking, was able to grab stuff for the first time. And so now I, now I can't keep up with him. Now I have to go to the gym just so I don't get embarrassed in the, in the backyard. But it was really just a miracle and a happenstance of, of so many different factors that went into that.

Yeah.

Starting with the fact that my wife is a warrior for her family. But I was able to take the little knowledge as a young insurance producer that I knew that, hey, Yeah. My company that I work for pays a lot of money for this insurance, and they tell me it's a good package, and I say it's a good package. What does it do? Where can I go? And without that knowledge, I didn't save my son's life. I take no credit for that. If anybody did, it was my wife. But someone gave me that knowledge to be able to go out and make an impact. And when, when I tell people, when I tell my customers, when I tell my clients, when I tell my other producers, that our job matters, it 100% matters because companies out there today, especially in the middle market, are paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for an insurance policy and their employees don't know how it can affect them.

Yeah.

Whether it be diabetes, heart, cancer, whatever it is, there are places they can access in the country that can change their outcomes. And being able to bring that to the table, I mean, that's my minimum standard. If you're not willing to bring that passion to the table, You're not going to work for us.

Well, and, you know, I have to believe when you guys were sitting in that room at Mayo Clinic and received the news that, hey, we feel that we can do something about it, we got to do it now, that had to be an 800-pound weight coming off your back.

I, I cannot tell you. I mean, the, the health condition that both me and my wife were in up to that point, just from stress and not taking care of ourselves and It was instantly like I could take a deep breath for the first time.

Wow. And I want people to, you know, to me, the key moment in all of this wasn't them delivering that news to you. It was how your wife fought for a better outcome. And I share that because I don't think that's the piece we're missing right now in the benefits world of consumerism. My question to any consumer who is using healthcare, are you fighting for a better outcome? Are you willing to fight for a better outcome?

Absolutely. And do you have the tools to fight?

And do you have the tools to fight for that better outcome? Yeah, absolutely.

And technology is an amazing thing, but up to this point, we haven't had a place other than WebMD. And stay off of there, you're, you'll think you're dying tomorrow.

I was just gonna say, you're gonna think everything is terminal.

So it's very powerful. And bringing those resources to the table for not only the CEOs and the CFOs, but for the person working the front desk, for the person sweeping the floors— do they know what that, that benefits package can really do for them?

So I'm sure people are like me listening and going, okay, James, how old is your daughter now?

Uh, she's almost 16.

Almost 16. Any lasting effects from the hip replacement, or is she just a normal kid at 16 years old? Uh, sassy and turning into an adult quickly.

A 16-year-old is very, uh, very rare these days, but she is the epitome of— I say she's my— she, she's the, uh, twin of my wife who, who still loves me at this point. She puts up with a lot of my nonsense, like my wife is probably a little frustrated with, but she is, she's awesome. She's a champ. And she is, she's, she's highly motivated. So she got that from one of us and she, she wants to do big things in this world.

And so if I'm doing the math correctly, if she's 16, your son's 11?

He's 10.

10. Okay. And he's doing, doing great.

Fantastic, man. He, he's, he's all boy. He, he loves the dad jokes. He loves to get out there and mix it up. And, you know, we're, we're trying some different things. We got him some contacts. He wanted contacts this year so he could play a little more basketball. He didn't want his glasses getting knocked off. And he's out there, obviously no contact sports for him. He's had a few additional surgeries since the original one, but he is, he's a champ. He does great in school.

Yeah.

And you just gotta tell him not to talk so much.

I feel his pain. I was a, I was a chunky kid who had to wear glasses for sports. And, uh, I was the, uh, my parents gifted me horrible nearsightedness.

Mm-hmm.

And, uh, I remember when I got to go to contacts, it definitely changed. It, it did a lot for my confidence.

Yeah. Yeah. He, he may be a little overconfident, so, you know, eventually he may have a little too much of his dad in him. He may, he may have to be humbled a little bit in life.

I am curious though, going back to the business side of it, you know, you were just a, a newer advisor at that time.

I had a few years, Ed, and, you know, I, I, I've had multiple careers within one agency from back when I was hired. My, my main principle was sell life insurance, you know, year over year. Came into the agency and started, and, and honestly, you know, this is a, a great point. I, I think you learn the most through failure. The wins, you can win. It's great. Everybody's winning. But what are you learning from that? Maybe the feeling that a win feels good.

Yeah.

But after 2 years of doing nothing but life insurance, the leads that were already there for me kind of drew up and it was like, oh, you gotta go generate new life insurance leads and you gotta start talking with these small little policies and work your way up and—

A good old—

Do all that.

Yeah.

And you know, the revenue and the production just wasn't there for me. Yeah. So was housed out of a bank at that point in time. Came over to the actual agency. And when I got here, we kind of discovered we were, we were at that point in time an old school mindset where a lot of what we sold was just medical, dental, and vision. So I was really able to ride the wave of actually going out and enrolling, actually enrolling people. That was right after the back of Obamacare where you had to go out, you were still doing applications, but there everything was on paper and they weren't full medical applications. So things were getting a little bit easier, but someone still had to be there.

Yeah.

And I was the young guy with a car and I was like, I'll be there. Let me do it. And we uncovered that there were these disability options, these life insurance options, all of this. And I was able to build a book through doing nothing but that for clients that already existed. Through that transition, we were, we really maxed out our revenue and really, we really dominated that market because we already had the client base. But eventually that client base, again, just like the life insurance, dried up.

Yeah.

I felt like I had a little bit of salt under me at that point in time and said to Marty, hey, let me try this. I can be your lead consultant. And had a, had a few years worth of run as the lead benefits consultant before transitioning into the operations, as you mentioned in the beginning. And the operations came from the fact that, hey, we're building for the first time ever and we're growing at these rapid paces, but we don't have an infrastructure. Like, we're going to topple over. We've got to go back and build the infrastructure so we can perpetuate this growth long-term. And so that transition to that, and then eventually to the sales role.

2-part question. Going back to everything you went through with your children, primarily your son, would you say that you were a different advisor after those events compared to the one you were leading up to those events? And if so, how so?

100%, without a question. I think anybody that experiences a life event like that is going to change for the good or for maybe for the bad. I am different from the standpoint of up to that point in life, I wanted to be the hero.

Hmm.

I wanted to be the one that did everything. And maybe the learning that I can't do everything was the takeaway from that. But after that experience, I didn't want to be the hero anymore. I wanted to build up other heroes. I don't need to be the one that goes and gets the kill every time. Like, that's rewarding me. I wanted to start rewarding a group or a collective. So it went much from that, hey, me out front, look at me, put me on the billboard, let me run the commercial, to, hey, put me behind the scenes and let me uplift other people. Let me make a difference. And it wasn't so much about how much money I could make every year. It was how much of an impact I could make every year.

Hey, hey, Andy Neary here. I want to take a minute and make a quick and exciting announcement. I am hosting our next one-of-one sales workshop on Thursday, October 29th. You are not going to want to miss this. Plus, seats are limited, so you can't wait. We are deep within a trust recession right now. It is hard to build trust and credibility with buyers. It's even harder to stand out in a crowded market. So you need a message that helps you grab attention from the right prospects. And that's exactly what you're going to learn in this 2-hour workshop. I'm going to walk you through 2 of our most effective exercises so you can uncover your personal brand and the perfect prospects for you, and then blend the 2 into a sales message only you can take to the market. Imagine walking out of this workshop with a sales message you feel confident in. Assets for your LinkedIn profile, your LinkedIn content, an elevator pitch, heck, assets for your website. That is what we're going to cover in this one-of-one sales workshop. But seats are limited. So whether you're looking to make 2026 a strong finish or you're ready to ramp up for an amazing 2027, this is a workshop you're not going to want to miss. So if you're interested, here's what I want you to do. I want you to go to LinkedIn where if we're not connected, number one, Connect to me, but 2, then send me a DM and say, hey, I wanna know more about this October one-on-one sales workshop, and we'll get a call on the calendar to see if it's a fit for you. All right, let's get back to the show. Reach over revenue. I love that. You know, I, I've heard somebody say it and I think it, the way they say it, it's, it's said so well. You can have a lot of goals, right? A lot of priorities in life. Once you have a health event, you have one.

Yeah.

It forces you into one and that's to get better. And I think whether it's your own health event or a family member, you know, I've been blessed that my family, truth be told, hasn't had a lot of light health issues as a whole. But man, yeah, when, when health is taken away from you, your whatever goals, dreams you had, making money, blah, blah, they all go away.

Yeah.

Because you have one. There's only one goal at that point. Yep. And, and, uh, I love the impact that's had on— I mean, not that anybody wants to go through something like that, but done well, it, it, it can have such a positive impact on your life.

Mm-hmm. And, and, you know, Andy, that's, that's true in, in, in all aspects. Um, and go way back and it's, it's just a mentality of, of— and that's the one thing you can control is your mentality and your attitude.

Yep.

But, you know, I happened to spill a cup of coffee on me this morning on my way to the office. I thought the lid was on. It was not. I took a big chug and it was on my shirt.

Is it the shirt you're wearing?

Because it's black.

No, we changed.

We turned around and we changed. It was actually a white shirt. Of course.

Couldn't have been a black one. Yeah.

We turned around and changed. I had meetings prior to this that everything needed to go. And I could have come in and I could have said, I'm frustrated because of this happened to me. Something as simple as spilling my coffee happened to me.

I've been there, dude.

And taking that out on everybody. But it's about your mindset. Whatever you're going through in life, it's how you're going to look at it. And sometimes, unfortunately, it takes a big event to be able to warp your mind to think that way.

To add, to add just a little levity to that though, isn't it amazing that if you get in, if you let yourself get in your head, how a spilled cup of coffee can somehow equate to I'm a failure on the wrong day?

100%. 99% of my job at this point as Chief Sales Officer to our producers is motivation and mentality, keeping them in the right headspace.

Yeah. Well, let's talk about that because if I look at your LinkedIn profile, it says Chief Sales Officer. But you said you prefer chief storyteller.

Yeah.

Talk about that.

Well, it's an important distinction, and I appreciate the opportunity to tell my story, uh, with you today. But chief storyteller for an insurance, it's not about the agency story. It's about the clients you work with story. So example, if I can go out to mom and pop down the street and I can learn their business and understand their business, and then in turn tell their story for them. to insurance vendors, to carriers, to the community. I can help them recruit. I can help them make more money by putting a name out there for themselves. I can help market their business. And by doing that, you have to be able to communicate that properly. There's plenty of people that can learn and shoot, I can name any business in the country right now. I can go on one of the AI platforms right now and have a lot of information on it. And that information is relevant and it's there. But unless I can do something with it, unless I can articulate what that information tells as a story, it just sits there and it's stagnant. So that, that is our job. And my job as Chief Sales Officer, Chief Storyteller, is to sell the BHC brands and to be out there and make a place for people, young producers, producers that have been careers with large national firms. Hey, this is the place that you can come in and make an impact. And this is how we go about it.

Let's throw your hat, your thought leader hat on. As chief sales officer, you talked about being in charge of motivating. As we, you know, welcome new generations into the production role, you know, we still got what I think the average age in the industry is probably still 58, 59. But we're bringing in younger and younger producers. Have you noticed the style in the way you motivate? Has it had to change over time, given how we've seen changes in the type of producer that's coming in?

Uh, not just over time, but over person by person. I mean, it is, it's so different now. The, the old school generation does have their, their habits that, that typically move them and, and motivate them. The new generation, I mean, it could be anything. It could be anything from someone like me. Hey, what can I do to spend more time with my family? That's what's going to motivate me. To others, hey, you look nice today. I, I love the suit that you're wearing. Like, it, it's very little things because it turns out that in our industry, Producers, no matter what their age is, they're the most fragile because they think and they put so much pressure on themselves. So if they get in that downward head spiral, they can go for weeks, months at a time and really turn negative. And so you do have to identify what it is, and it is different in today's generation than it was, you know, 20 years ago. But there's not one form of that motivational tactic. It is each individual person's different. And maybe that's what it is, is— We have a bunch of unique people now.

Yeah, I, I would love your take on this. You know, there are certain things you can train a producer to do, right? Industry knowledge is probably the most common example. Like, you're gonna train a producer to understand the industry language over time, and they're gonna get knowledge of the industry over time through experience. But then there's other things like drive, discipline, consistency, things like that. I'd be curious, Do you think those are things that can be taught, or are things like discipline and drive either inherent to the person or not?

I think some traits are innate. I think they can be manipulated through certain tactics. You know, example, a very, a lot of great consultants are actually introverts.

Yeah.

Right. So the fact of saying to a brand new introvert, hey, go out there to these 16 social events and make a bunch of friends. They're going to be exhausted by that. Can they do it? Maybe, maybe not, but they're going to be exhausted by that versus the introvert that's tech savvy. Say, hey, I need you to cold market 200 prospects this week. The introverts say, wait, I can contact 200 people without actually having to physically have a conversation? I'm in. Let me do it. So some things are innate and some things can be manipulated. But I think the one thing that is innate and you can't have within your industry is someone without grit. And grit can be defined a lot of different ways, but grit is one of our core values here at BHC, and you have to have grit.

Yeah, I agree. I think if I were to give a producer one piece of advice today to be successful, it would be the consistency of showing up every day. And personally, I believe it has never been easier to do that because so many people give up so quickly days.

That's right.

There is a lack of grit out there. And man, if you have that grit, that ability to get punched in the nuts, but every day you keep coming back for more, you're gonna succeed.

Yeah. And I, I don't know how you teach it to the next generation. I don't know if it's there. Some people have it and you see them thrive. Yeah. The ones that just keep showing up. But take it back to, you know, you know, athletes, you know, you train them differently today.

Yeah.

You can tell the ones that have it.

What, uh, what do you look for now? Look, maybe looking for that next great producer to bring into the BHC team, whether they be that 25-year-old kid outta college or maybe trying to bring over a veteran, you know, from another, uh, firm. What are some of the traits you're looking for in an ideal producer?

The big thing that's hard to do is you can't hire off resume.

Yep. Not anymore.

It, it just doesn't work.

Yeah.

You have to hire certain traits that you're looking for. Specifically in, you know, the big kind of push in our industry is vertical specialization, obviously knowing one thing well. And one, one other quick story for you here. One of those odd jobs kind of growing up was— it's the only job I've ever been fired from. I worked in a jewelry store.

I hope it wasn't for what I think it is. Did you steal the product?

I, I, I did not. Um, and it was actually, I couldn't get in at the high-end jewelry store because they were afraid of that. They're like, this guy's gonna pocket too much stuff. Uh, so it was a lower-end jewelry store, but there was actually a motive to my madness of getting a job there. I was thinking, hey, I'm going to want to marry this beautiful lady one day, and I got to have a nice ring that I can't afford. So I'm going to go here and get a discount, right?

Always be thinking and selling, brother.

Well, I was there for just, I think I made it 2 weeks. And the problem was that jewelry, you have to actually take it out of the cabinet every night, out of the glass cabinet and lock it up. And then you have to put it out every morning. I historically, I'm just a bull in a china shop. I don't— spatial awareness, I don't know what it is, but I'd rather walk through the wall than walk around it. My big mitt, every time I would stick it into that jewelry cabinet and the glass kind of distorting the view, I would knock everything over in there. So, you know, you bring your girlfriend in, you bring your wife in, and you want to look at a piece of jewelry in there. I reach in, everything gets knocked over. I'm grabbing the necklace and, you know, just crushing around. But I say that because I was never made to work in small confined space where I'm sticking my hand in a jewelry cabinet. I'm not delicate. I wasn't made to do that. And so you have to find the right traits. So if I'm hiring someone to go out and work in fashion, or I want them to specialize in fashion merchandising sector of our market, I'm not going to hire a guy that dresses like a slob or that doesn't understand what, what that visualization is.

Yeah.

Pairing what your plan is. And that's the thing. You have to have a plan for these people before you bring them on.

Mm-hmm.

And you're hiring to fulfill that plan, not hiring just to have another body that maybe be able to make something happen.

Well, and I think a lot of agencies are guilty of just throwing another producer at the problem, whatever the problem is, go hire more producers. And that's not always the answer because you got, you can't just go find any producer to put in the room because you can make a lot of bad decisions in that.

Right.

I wanted to ask you on that note, you know, as you train producers, you know, a lot has changed over the last, call it, 6 years since COVID Where have you seen prospecting change the most in the last 5 to 6 years?

It's tough because in the Arkansas marketplace, we lag about 5 years behind where everybody else is.

Okay.

But what I've seen is prospecting works no matter how you do it, which is unique. It's that grit. Most of our new people, I don't coach them to go door to door anymore. Matter of fact, I get mad if someone walks into my office and asks to speak with me and they don't have an appointment because it's taking me from something else. And our front desk is pretty good about screening those for, for all of us. But it still works.

Yeah.

There are rural communities where they want to see you walk in. They want to see what you look like. They want to put a face to a name, do all that. But that's what's changed is the expectation is people think that they have to do something new. They have to do something different. And I encourage that 100%. But what they have to do is they just have to do it. They have to get out there and they have to remember, you know, producer is what's in our title. And, you know, other companies, we call it consultant, we call it risk analyst, we call it whatever it may be. But the title producer works pretty good because there's an action to it. What did you come in here to do? Produce more opportunities.

Yeah.

And so that's what prospecting looks like, is just making the effort. And then we coach on the back end of how to maybe soften a message or how to maybe professionalize a message. And attack that collectively. And then the other thing that's, that's developing so quickly now is just the AI ability to do it. Yeah. Um, you get your prompts right and you get your programming right, you've got a prospecting tool or a branding tool that's doing it for you day in and day out. And that's, that's, that's kind of the next level.

Well, and I think the thing that producers and all insurance professionals have to recognize today, especially with AI, is whatever advice you're giving to a prospect or client in a meeting, Don't think for a minute when you leave the client or prospects going to AI and comparing your advice to what AI would give. Exactly. So everything you're saying today is being analyzed.

Exactly. And that's the importance of mentorship, which I think our agency does a great job of, is because the, the prospecting efforts is one thing.

Yep.

But when they say, yes, can you be here on Tuesday? If you're going in there and you're not already an expert or you don't have deep product knowledge, You better be bringing someone with you that does, because that one opportunity can be ruined by you going in there and speaking illiterately about your products.

This episode is brought to you by True Captive Insurance. What if you could take full control of your healthcare strategy without the financial burdens of traditional insurance? At True Captive Insurance, they make that possible. As the only captive in the nation that puts up the majority of collateral on your behalf, They provide financial flexibility from day one, making them an advocating partner for their customer success. True Captive's fully customizable plans and cost-saving strategies ensure you never have to choose between affordability and quality care. It's time to break free from the limitations of conventional insurance. Take the next step today. Visit truecaptive.com and discover a smarter way to manage healthcare. That is That is truecaptive.com. The platform can be a tool to generate leads if you do it right, but that isn't the reason you should be using it. Mm-hmm. You should be using it almost as a library of content you put out so that when you're in the meetings with prospects, you have a place to send them to build that credibility.

Mm-hmm.

Because I think your point's well made. Buyers want thought leaders now.

Mm-hmm.

They want people with expertise. And early in your career, you probably have to bring somebody in who has it, and there's no problem with that. But you have to find a way to amplify your expertise at some point in your career because that is going to be the credibility you need when that prospect's trying to make a decision.

And you have to have multiple people within your agency if you want to scale doing that. Great example of that, Andy. I was actually out on a prospect call just a few weeks ago, um, with one of our newer producers that we had gone in with. And they obviously, they vetted us before we got in there. He'd opened the door and he said, you guys are the ones running this content on LinkedIn. And it happened to be Corey Hall, one of my agents out of Northwest Arkansas who was 80 miles away, that had developed that thought leadership that they were interested in. And they'd just seen it. So it was instant credibility that they had seen our name, our logo with a thought leader prospect when we walked in the door. The new producer, year 1, Buckle up is number one. And it's, we're going to find out how much grit they actually have when they come in the building. We have a very strong onboarding program for our new producers that they know the clear expectations of what they should be doing day in and day out. You know, year 1 activity, that's all we're really looking for. Year 2, we're looking for conversion of that activity. And then as they move into year 5, it's what you just mentioned. Are they building a reputation as a thought leader? And to recruit them in, it goes back to motivation and the right fit, not putting a square peg in a round hole. You've got to find the right people to come in and do that for you, that understand producer is a verb and that they're hired to be a producer. And that transitions into your second part of the question was, what do you do with someone who has kind of tailed off or hit a plateau? And if you hit a plateau now and you think you're going to maintain all your book of business, you're wrong. You're going to go backwards. So you've You have to understand and you have to coach to the standpoint that there is no finish line in the job of a producer. You know, that's one thing that's changed since I started. It was the idea or the concept of, hey, build your book to $1 million and you're done. You made it. You've arrived. Go hang out at the country club, right? Well, no, that's not the case. You are a producer and you're building an agency and you're building a legacy. Your job is to produce. So tough conversations sometimes have to be had. We talk about motivation. Sometimes the best motivation is a Frank, tough conversation of, "Hey, are you a producer?" Because this is what the expectation is.

Yeah, I think that's two of the biggest challenges I see right now in the industry is you have a lot of good young producers failing too fast because there maybe it is because of that grit. You know, you talk about that grit, and I think you're right. I love what you said earlier, which is prospecting works as long as you do it. Notice you didn't say cold call emails, LinkedIn. No, no. How you do it isn't as important as doing it. Prospecting works if you do it. And I do think for the industry veterans, I heard a peer of mine say it really well. This industry likes to reward mediocrity. And it's really easy to get it to a place in your career where you're making the money to support your lifestyle. Very easy to turn, you know, take the foot off the gas. And that's that moment where you plateau and honestly you start going backwards. And so I think that's the other piece we miss too is how do we keep that successful veteran you referenced, like Corey, you know, inside your firm was absolutely killing it. Mm-hmm. How do you keep a guy like that convicted? Mm-hmm. So he wants to keep scaling.

Tune into the Monday's BHC sales meeting cuz it's good is the enemy of great. That's where we're going. And it's just that concept. Yeah. And, and also agencies owe someone like Corey, someone like those, my, my principals, Martys and the Shannons on, on my commercial side of the business. Agencies owe those people the support platform to be able to continue to do it year over year.

Yes. And just because somebody is having success does not mean they don't need support anymore. Mm-hmm. I think there's a lot of agencies that say, well, he's got it figured out, she's got it figured out, they don't need our help anymore, just let 'em do their thing. And that's not the case. Yeah.

Well, think about it. The, the engine that got you to a $2 million book If you put the right tires, the right oil, the right gas in the car, it can get you to a $4 million book. Too many agencies step away and say, okay, he's good. Let's move on to the next 25-year-old schmo that we think we can throw something at and do something with. And, and yes, you have to do that. You have to develop that. But again, there's no finish line in the career of a producer. There's no arbitrary number that they're trying to hit and then they're done. It's growth.

Yeah. Well, we talked about that in the, you know, we did the workshop. There's 5 stages of a producer's career, right? Builder, builder and performer are the unvalidated producers. They validate, they become a professional. Now they need to learn the habits and the skills to become a 7-figure producer. You hit that, you're an authority. Then eventually you become a leader like you, and your job is to help others win.

Right.

Support and training don't ever end. Mm-hmm. You never have it all figured out. Even you as a chief sales officer, right? You're still trying to get better.

100%. And that's where, where that prospecting does change a little bit amongst the levels of one. Yeah, you have to do it. Well, actually you still have to do it even at that $3, $4 million book size.

Yes.

It just looks a lot different.

Looks a lot different. Everybody has one thing in common at all 5 stages. Time. You have 24 hours, but when you got a $2 million book, you don't have time anymore like you used to. So you gotta be smarter about how you prospect.

Mm-hmm.

Yep. Well, uh, James, I was about to say Corey. James, getting off. Uh, we, I really enjoyed this conversation, man. Your story was powerful. I wanna thank you for being vulnerable enough to share that. If you don't mind, I would like to use the last 5 minutes or so to let people get to know you. You okay with that?

I will. We'll see.

I, I did not prepare you for these questions, but I love to do a little lightning round to let people get to know Our guests. So I am a big believer in habits and rituals, and I have a very, very strict, I might call it, or others might tell me it is, morning routine that I live by. I know you have children a little older these days, but what does your typical morning routine look like?

Well, it, it's valuable cuz there's time with the kids in the morning before they're getting ready for school, kind of going that, listen to 'em arguing with their mom, um, about what they're gonna wear, what they're taking for lunch. So I, I get to hear all that and just sit back and enjoy that. But the first thing, and it's a crutch, but the very first thing I do in the morning is I get the coffee going. Cannot function without it at this point in time. It's a habit. I'll drink it from morning all the way till right before I go to bed.

Ooh.

It's deep in there.

Highly octane.

It's in the veins for sure. But it's coffee, it's kids, and it should be kids and coffee. Then probably 10 minutes with my wife, which is a very valuable time in the morning.

Yep.

Um, obviously a time of reflection, time of prayer, time of faith.

Yep.

But then 10 minutes with the wife and then it's dialed into work mode.

Yeah.

Before I leave for the office, I'm trying to, as I'm getting ready, I'm checking my emails from the night before. I'm checking social media pages and it, it just works. And, and why I know it's such a strict routine for me is when I'm traveling and I don't get that. My whole day's off.

Yep. You feel it. You feel it. Yep.

Yep.

Let's call that, uh, coffee, kids, and Christ.

Yeah, there we go.

I like it. Good way to start your morning. I like that, the triumvirate there.

Give me a bumper sticker.

I, I'm a big believer in movement, moving your body, getting your body moving, you know, either at the beginning of the day or throughout the day. What do you do when you get a few minutes to get your body moving? What's your, uh, let's call it exercise of choice?

Yeah, so this is something I've started over the last couple years actually, is no more lunches unless they're with a client. So if there's no client lunch scheduled, I'm at the gym.

Awesome.

It's fantastic. Gives me 3 to 5 days a week going. However, this plan is going to need to modify as I age a little bit here. Right now I go and I lift anything I can as heavy as I can.

I was gonna ask you what your workout of choice is. Okay, just heavy meathead weights.

It's definitely meathead, old school football, push-pull, bro split, all that. But I tell you, it's, it's not for the physical aspect. It's really not. It is— I have so much mental clarity when I'm going in there.

Yeah.

And when I walk out, I feel so much better, uh, both mentally and physically. Actually, sometimes physically I hurt pretty bad.

Yep.

But mentally, it's just that clarity moment for me. So I do, I do love it. We've got a good client that, that owns a gym that's not too far from the office. I can be there, be back within an hour and 15 minutes, and, and enjoy the time.

That's awesome, man. I doubt this happens a whole lot because you're a big family man. If you get an afternoon to yourself, what are you doing?

I don't even know if I'd want an afternoon by myself, honestly. It'd feel unproductive. I feel like there's work in this family and I would prefer if I'm not working to be with family. But I will say when I typically do have an afternoon by myself, it's when I'm traveling for work. When I'm stuck on an airplane for, for the next 2 hours, I'm a big history documentary guy. I don't know if it's because it helps me fall asleep on the plane, what it is, you know, whether it's young Washington, Roosevelt, whoever it may be. Love watching those and just learning from their, their rights and their wrongs.

Yeah, that's awesome, man. I'm a big history buff too. My fiancée could give 2 craps about it.

It's my— my wife says if I do get one going on at the house, my wife says it's very good to fall asleep to.

So any, uh, any books you've read recently or podcasts you've listened to that you recommend?

Uh, nothing recently on the books. Uh, however, I will plug, uh, Corey Hull, uh, who we've referenced here, um, is, is releasing a book, uh, revolving around healthcare and some of the disruption that goes with that. So looking forward to having that on my desk and reading it. But podcast is my game, man. Podcasts and now chat voice. Anything you want, chat voice can read it to you in the car. Spend a lot of windshield time out there, but podcasts— love you, man. Love, love listening to your pod, but, uh, you gotta throw on the sports pods throughout the day.

Yeah, I've been listening or watching a lot of YouTube, um, clips from sports pods like Busting with the Boys and things like that. Yeah, yeah.

A new one I've discovered in the last few years is we picked up The Hockey Habit, spending some time in Minnesota there at the Mayo Clinic. Spit and Chick with Podcast. Those guys are hilarious. It's very little about us.

I love this. I love the stories, like ex-pro athletes telling them old stories.

Exactly. That's my favorite.

Yeah. Well, hey, James, if somebody wanted to reach out, they got inspired from this episode and they want to reach out to you and learn more about you or just connect with you, what's the easiest way to do that?

Yeah, obviously out there, easy to find on LinkedIn. Easiest way to get me though is just always company email, james@bhca.com.

Awesome, man. Well, it has been an absolute honor to have you on. Like I said, your story, dude, thank you for getting vulnerable. That was, uh, It's no surprise why you get up motivated every day.

Yeah. Well, man, appreciate you and you, you're a part of that too. I, yeah. You know, I think sometimes what you do is thankless, but putting yourself out there, inspiring people, I think you're doing a great job. Yeah.

So it's fun when you can leave an impact, right, man? That's why we do what we do. So be good, everybody. Thank you.