How Public Service Fuels Sales Success | with Marc Vital-Herne

Hey, hey, welcome back to the Accelerate Your Insurance Sales podcast. Andy Neary here, CEO and founder of Complete Game Consulting. I am excited today. I am joined by Mark Vital Hearn. Mark is a risk management consultant with USI. He's got 20 years of experience across many industries, including financial services, lending, oil and gas, and insurance. With his knowledge, he advises his clients on risk transfer strategies, specialized programs, and reducing total risk exposure. And Mark is best known for his consultative relationship-first approach and his deep involvement in public service, supporting organizations such as Blood Cancer United. And that's why I want this man on the show. This is a man who is passionate about the public service. Mark. Thank you, Andy. Welcome to the show, my friend.

Hey, Andy. Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity.

You bet. Well, let's start with the obvious question that I ask everybody who is in the insurance industry. How the heck did you find yourself in the insurance industry?

So, I've worked in several sectors that ultimately complemented this, but this is just something that we kind of said we stumbled into. I've worked in stocks, mortgages, lending. And ultimately, before I got into insurance, I got into the oil and gas industry. And I just wanted to be an advisor, a true advisor to my clients. So that's really what got me into doing insurance. But ultimately, as a young kid, that was the last thing I wanted to do.

I think that was not— I would not label that the childhood dream for most of us, right? Now, when you got in, you actually, if I have it correct, you started at GEICO, right?

That's right.

I'd love to know your perspective because we're going to get to what you're doing today as a commercial risk advisor with USI. But when you were at GEICO, it was all about quantity and volume. I believe you told me offline you sold, was it almost 2,000 policies on an annual basis?

Yes, that's right. So my—

How do you, how do you handle volume like that? I guess is what I was very curious. That's a lot.

So I believe one of the biggest things that I'm fortunate about is I go into anything that's new for me with a student mindset. I come with a blank slate, even with as much experience that I've had over the years in different industries. I don't know how you do this. I don't know how you make the sausage. So I'm going to be quiet, listen, understand exactly what your protocols and procedures are. And fortunately, where I started off, they had excellent foundations as far as creating an environment to ask questions, learn, and also have the individuals in place to support my growth. So I hit the ground running at GEICO, and it took some time to really understand what it is that we're offering besides the fact of what kind of clients that we're serving. And once you understand and kind of separate yourself from I need to sell every single policy to understanding this particular person on the line right now is not my customer. I can't really serve them as best as they need. I can get the next one and just kind of keep that positive attitude with the high flow of calls coming in.

Yeah, I mean, when you're selling that kind of volume, I'm curious, how many calls were you fielding on a weekly basis?

Wow. I could say on a daily basis, it'd be maybe around 25 calls. 25 calls.

And these are actual conversations with potential clients.

Correct. So there is interest, which is nice. They're coming in with an understanding of what they're looking for. For the most part, you're going to be probing, asking some questions, either, you know, picking up from an initial inquiry started online, application started online, or just, you know, start from soup to nuts with them over the phone. But really try to make it as conversational as possible and really probe and get those really good questions in that are really going to answer not just the 1 or 2, but maybe about 5 to 10 questions that you have within your application to really guide them through the best policy that's going to fit their needs.

I'm curious, you know, GEICO is obviously a marketing machine. Were most of those calls you were fielding inbound leads through the marketing?

Yes. So, fortunately, I didn't have to go out and hunt and find and, you know, build those relationships in that role. So, everything was kind of preset for me. But later on, that did, you know, impact some of the changes I made in my career to where I am today.

Yeah, that's what I'd be curious to know because now you make the transition where you're selling commercial insurance, right? And given your sales goals on an annual basis, it might only take 5, 6 good accounts to hit your annual goal. How is that transition for you going from all this volume where now as a commercial advisor, it's probably a lot more emphasis on quality over quantity?

Correct. So within my role, I focus within certain verticals, manufacturing, distribution, real estate, construction. Fortunately for me, with the transition going into commercial, commercial, again, I kept that student mindset but understood that the walls beyond GEICO were much different in the broader markets for insurance. So, it was a bit of a task to find a firm that would not only pick up someone that only had personal lines experience, did not have experience in hunting for clients in the insurance world, and would still be able to kind of keep up because it is a very fast-moving, fast-paced industry. And fortunately enough, I was able to work and learn on under some, you know, well-seasoned, tenured brokers where I picked up a lot for being vertically integrated, for understanding what it looks like to hunt, what it looks like to run a full presentation in front of a boardroom and executives. So, again, keeping that student mentality always has been just kind of my claim to fame in being where I am today.

Yeah, I actually would love for you to maybe go a layer deeper on that because you've said student of the game a couple of times, which personally I think that's what separates the tier 1 producers from everybody else. What in your opinion separates producers who become students of the game, they learn the business of insurance versus a producer who's just out selling a bunch of policies?

Sure. So it, it's unfortunately going to take an obsession, obsession within something that you truly love, something you truly enjoy. And again, insurance is not the first thing that people think of as something they can be obsessed about or really understand. So once I had a, you know, prior experience within financial markets and industry, I understood how much this is affecting businesses on a daily basis as a requirement. So really, when you kind of fit your mindset around, I'm truly helping people, and if I can really be a value-add, really be comprehensive in how I'm providing solutions, I really need to know as much as I can as possible. So as far as being a student mindset, I'm constantly taking new designations, studying up on new trends going on within the market, whether it be a lot of the transportation that's going on, changes with the DOT, going on with foreign affairs, geopolitical issues, just even speaking to people, you know, regionally here in New York. That's what kind of keeps me up to snuff as far as what my skills are and, you know, being able to be more consultative on what they're seeing here.

Yeah. And for geographic perspective, remind me, Long Island, are you right in New York City?

Right. I'm actually 50 minutes from New York City.

Okay. On Long Island?

Yes.

Okay. You used the word obsession, and I couldn't agree more. I think the best are obsessed. And quite frankly, it's, in my opinion, it doesn't necessarily have to be an obsession with insurance. It could be an obsession to constantly get better, whatever that might be. I, I was curious with the success you've had, Mark, what drives you, man? Like what is your north star?

It's really more being an example at the end of the day. Um, not many people are really cognizant of it, but there's not a lot of producers that look like me, sound like me, or even fill the roles that I do. Uh, so I feel like there's a responsibility I have with a lot of the success that I have to share what I do. But it also comes with, you know, examples. So it's the late nights of studying. It's also going to conferences. It's showing up, which is the number one thing that I feel has been a big success in my career. And just also paying back a lot of it to anybody that has an interest in being successful themselves. It may not be in insurance. It may not be in finance or business. It may be in something completely different, but it all translates in seeing that if someone else can do it, then there's no reason that I can't, you know, achieve some level of success in what I have a passion for. And that's how I always kind of wake up every day knowing that I know someone's out there that is watching me, that is, you know, inspired me to be successful. And it's my turn. Yeah.

And success leaves clues. And if somebody else has done it, you can do it too. And I love what you said, you know, I, I always, if somebody were to ask me what, what defines success, what I wish I did was take pictures of me sitting at my desk here at 6:30 AM on a Saturday morning studying something, or, uh, at 7, 8, 8, 8:30 at night on Wednesday as I'm watching something or whatever. Those are the moments that define who you are. It's the work when nobody's watching that counts. And I think that's what you're getting at. Yeah. It's, you know, when you look at the work you're doing now, and you brought up something I definitely wanna address with you. When you and I first connected about being on the podcast, you made a comment about, I'm always looking to expand my personal brand, which is, it's music to my ears. And just before you said, you know, there's certain attributes you have that make you look different than who you compete with. We call that the one of one. Talk about how personal brand has helped you grow your business in the New York, in that market outside of New York City. How do you feel your personal brand has played into that?

So that's a really great question. It's a matter of working and kind of stepping into the role, whether I was prepared or not as an executive. I'm, you know, the subject matter expert in this. I'm learning constantly and it's to the public's benefit that I share that as my brand, that this is an executive that focuses in within these sectors. And not only does he focus in within those sectors, he also is spending time with individuals and people and businesses that are within that sector. So again, it takes a lot of showing up. It takes a lot of really strong interpersonal connections that you're able to make beyond talking about insurance. And a lot of your viewers know talking about insurance is almost taboo when you're trying to build a connection with people. Most people don't realize that you don't talk about insurance. You talk about almost everything else. But the insurance, and then you lead up to it. So, it's finding other things where you're, you're, I really want to sell you the insurance. But no, how, you know, how can you help me? How do I even like you? Do I know you? How can I relate to you and what you say resonate with me to really even give you an opportunity? So, building the brand, creating the credibility, creating confidence, all have done well for me. And I just kind of knew that that was part of one of the reasons why I also went into working in commercial spaces. That kind of gave me the opportunities to be available to people where that wasn't available to me or even was encouraged while working when I was at GEICO. It wasn't even an option.

Yeah. Well, and I think what you're hitting at there, you know, that work you put in at night when no one's watching or early in the morning.

Mm-hmm.

That includes becoming an expert in that niche market you serve. And that doesn't necessarily mean you are just the insurance expert. You are trying to understand that niche from all angles.

Mm-hmm.

And I think one thing you understand about building brand is the ability to not only become the go-to expert, but freely share information with your potential buyers. I like to call it become the news channel they tune into. Why do you think that's important? Because, because I get a lot of pushback when I, when I preach that, Mark, where you have producers who don't want to share information for fear their competition is listening. But if you're going to build a brand and become an expert your prospects seek out, you've got to be the source of knowledge. Do you agree with that?

100%. 100%. At the end of the day, if they haven't thought of it, if they're not doing the research, they're not going to get started. They're going to take whatever tidbits that they can get from someone that is doing the research. But at the end of the day, how far can they go with your research? It's not that far. So sharing information again provides that confidence within yourself as an advisor, creates credibility within your customers and your sector that you focus in within. And then At that point, you're not necessarily looking for clients. Clients are looking for you at that point. And it becomes very easy to be able to kind of live within this lifestyle as a broker and more as an advisor, in my opinion, and a subject matter expert.

You know, I have my opinions on how to build a brand and we have the way we teach it. I'd be curious to hear from you as somebody who's doing it actively in the insurance industry right now. If there's a producer listening in, maybe just getting into the industry right now, what advice would you have with your experience, especially coming from personal lines, quality, quantity to commercial lines, quality? What advice would you give that younger producer on how to build a brand?

For a younger producer coming in looking to build a name for themselves, I would definitely put yourself out there. It's very uncomfortable talking about something that you may not have a full grasp on. But to be honest, most of us don't always have a full grasp on everything that they're doing, but you got to take it head on. Just even kind of speaking and talking to more of the individuals in office where we have our claims department, account executives, practice leaders, and so on. When you really boil it down, they're also learning at the same time with you. And when you understand that, it kind of takes away that hurdle from you that I can go out there and I can talk to people. You know, figure out a couple, you know, one-liners here and there, a couple of things to probe about. And, you know, you start getting some credibility, start getting people to like you. Spend a lot of time reading policies, which is what everybody says. But realistically, you're going to understand what carriers are good, what carriers are bad, and what, you know, issues are going to come up for an insured if a claim were to arise. I would definitely go and start researching networking events, events for prospects that you want to go and meet with, whether it be in building and construction or you're working in professional lines. Make sure that you're, you're, you're basically a fly on the wall in that room listening to what they're talking about, what their issues are, because they'll talk amongst each other. It's like, hey, how are you? Navigating this new, you know, compliance issue regulations within the state. They'll talk about that. Make friends with COIs. COIs are going to be the most important thing, I think, with the fact that they're going to also co-sign and promote you and sponsor you within their group. And they have a ton of different types of clientele that you'd love to have an opportunity to speak to, being attorneys, accountants, similar genres like that that have a large book of various types of businesses. Those are where I would start off at. But more importantly, have something to say. Showing up is great, but just kind of standing there and saying, "Hey, I'm Mark." Okay, what do you do? Know what you do.

Yeah. And the answer can't be, "Well, I'm an insurance advisor," right?

No.

You got to have a good elevator pitch that makes them want to learn more. But I think what you really hit there, and it's overlooked, is a producer has 3 priorities every week. If you're gonna be successful, you do need to reach out to people who do not know you. You need to reach out to people who already do it like you and can send you business referrals, COIs.

Mm-hmm.

But the overlooked one, and I think one you have mastered, is you also have to get more people to know who you are, whether that be social media, whether that be live events, public service, which we're gonna talk about. You have to spend time getting more people to know who you are. Otherwise, you're never gonna build that pipeline of, of potential COIs and prospects who are gonna feed your sales down the line. I think there's a lot of producers right now who are caught behind the phone, just reaching out to people who don't know them and they don't have any other means to grow their business. And that, that's a place of frustration right now. So what about per— I, I would love to know technical skill coming from where you came from. What about a personal lines producer who may be thinking about making the jump to commercial like you did, you did successfully. Is there any advice, you know, technical advice you'd give a producer like that who wants to make a similar— This episode is brought to you by True Captive Insurance. What if you could take full control of your healthcare strategy without the financial burdens of traditional insurance. At True Captive Insurance, they make that possible. As the only captive in the nation that puts up the majority of collateral on your behalf, they provide financial flexibility from day one, making them an advocating partner for their customer success. True Captive's fully customizable plans and cost-saving strategies ensure you never have to choose between affordability and quality care. It's time to break free from the limitations of conventional insurance. Take the next step today. Visit TrueCaptive.com and discover a smarter way to manage healthcare. That is TrueCaptive.com.

Jump. Um, sure. So for myself, I was very much self-aware and I'm always aware of kind of where my shortcomings come in. Um, I love to kind of build up the weak points. Not, you know, I wasn't coming in very strong as far as what does commercial insurance really do? What does that look like? I'm coming from a place where we sold auto insurance and a little bit of renters, a little bit of homeowners, and that's kind of it. To now I'm working on, you know, global supply chain. I'm working on commercial autos and researching DOT numbers and, you know, general liability and so on. I would definitely recommend if you're going into— from a transition from personal to commercial, look into a designation. There's plenty of classes. I've taken SHUB, I've taken Hartford classes. I got a CLCS designation early on, and it really kind of got me prepared to take on some of those conversations that I really wasn't prepared for, and also still kind of You know, show face on those little small bops that I wrote early on in my career coming into commercial.

Yeah.

That's what I would definitely recommend. Kind of dig into some books. I'm probably not the best person to ask because I get very nerdy with things. I have no problem reading an encyclopedia if that's going to make me better. So do what makes best for you. I'm not the best as far as reading a book, but you know, I'll switch into an audiobook. That is really kind of my wheelhouse. Just understand what your learning style is and lean into that. That's going to get you to where you need to be.

Yeah, I think— I hope everybody listening in, you're starting to see a sense of theme here. It's being a student again. If you want to win in this industry, you do have to understand product. You do have to be able to communicate what you know. But at the end of the day, you're a constant that thirst for getting better, being a student of the game is what's gonna take you farther than anything else. Mark, when I look at the best we've ever had a chance to work with here, that's what separates them. They have that obsession. Again, it might not be about insurance, but maybe it's an obsession to challenge to be the best version of themselves they could possibly be. Those folks are unstoppable. So, uh, I'm glad you're bringing— I want, especially the young producers who might be tuning in. I want them to hear that. All right, let's talk about your work in public service. It's something that I will wholeheartedly admit, Mark, I'm terrible at. If I were to tell you one conversation I've had far too many times in the last 3 to 5 years with my fiancée and just an area that I feel I have a gap, it's public service. How can I get out there and be more supportive supportive of the community. Is this something that just has always been a part of who you are, or was it something you really started and jumped into when you began your professional career?

Now you got me thinking. You know, I grew up in the church. My family, you know, heavily involved in church. My mother goes every day. But it's always, kind of a give and take. It's always good to give before receiving. And that's kind of a motto that I like to live by. I like to kind of feel that I'm coming in as a value add and not someone that's asking because we're always asking, "Hey, can I take a look at what you have?" So, when you come in as someone that's, you know, providing service, I think people are more open and disarmed to want to get to know you, understand what else that you are involved in, who else that you can help. Maybe it's not them, but now you've created an advocate. I think that's actually one of the biggest draws besides, you know, really being more of an advisor that really kept me in insurance is that once I started really understanding what is it that you guys do besides protect life and property, you give back. Every insurance company gives back, and it's a cornerstone to having a good reputation in the market and creating trust within people. So it's just second nature to me at this point.

Well, one of the associations, one of the organizations that I know you support very heavily is Blood Cancer United. And when I was getting ready for this episode, you, you had mentioned that one thing a lot of people don't know about you is your involvement in charities like Blood Cancer United are driven by personal experiences. Talk about that a little bit if you can.

Yeah. So I was fortunate enough to meet a gentleman within networking, Jay Ryan. He saw me just a few months ago and said, well, hey, we're, you know, I'm on the board and I'd love to nominate you. You look like someone that would really do well with this and it gives you an opportunity to kind of give back at the end of the day. It's just a really great opportunity to give back. And I had to really take a pause and understand What is this task that's, you know, being asked of me and where do I fit in in this? And I think that's where a lot of people have a problem where they're trying to give back is where does it— where do I fit in? How can I really help? I'm happy to tell as many people if I can remember, but when it comes down to it being something personal where it actually ended up being something personal. So Blood Cancers United was formerly Leukemia Lymphoma Society. They've been around for almost, I think, 70 years as Leukemia Lymphoma Society. They ultimately rebranded within the last 2 years or so. So it seems a little bit more broader for more people to engage. One, because they don't just serve those that are suffering from leukemia and lymphoma or going through treatment. They serve any blood-related cancers, which there are over 100 different types. They're providing awareness to the community. They're providing financial support to families and they're also paying for research to find a cure for a lot of these blood-related cancers. My grandmother actually passed away 23 years ago this past March from leukemia. She had several different ailments. She, you know, was the one that raised me. She brought my mother and her siblings over to this country working as a housekeeper. And, you know, I can't thank her enough for everything that she's done. And then beyond that, I had to really kind of think a little bit me more like, who else does this really affect and has affected in my life? And as I've gotten older, there's, you know, my friends have actually had to suffer through this issue as well too. One of my best friend's wives had come down with Hodgkin's lymphoma, didn't realize it. She was on her actual bachelorette getaway and ended up coming home, getting tested, and finding that out. She went right into treatment and, you know, You know, God willing, everything worked out to the point where they just welcomed their firstborn last month, a couple of weeks ago. And then the most chilling thing about it is I think everything kind of works in time element. Things come to you as you're prepared, or you may not realize that you're prepared for it. And this opportunity came a couple of months after one of my other best friends himself got diagnosed with Hodgkin's lymphoma. I witnessed myself as he gone through treatment for an autoimmune disease that required treatment similar to cancer, where he had a good period of about a year and a half to 2 years of remission. He was fine. And then this just came back. So this hit home on so many different levels where— When my friend's wife had gone through treatment for leukemia and lymphoma, I got heavily involved. There was lighting of the lights and walks and so on. And some of the things that I remember from that immediately came back where you're working for the survivors, the ones that are going through treatment, and the ones that we lost. And somehow when this opportunity came across me and I was nominated, all I thought about was these 3 things and how they've all affected my life and how I can be able to, you know, support this, this great movement that they have, this great cause, myself personally and the network that I've built. So a lot of going back to the branding and things, this is really where I feel fortunate that I can— I have a brand, I have a group of people that really trust me and watch me and see everything that I'm doing. Because those are the people I'm reaching out to, to kind of come back and help me make a big difference now with Blood Cancers United.

Yeah, man, what you just said hit home. I mean, I turned 48 a few months ago and at that age you start to have peers, to your point, experience chronic illnesses that we probably didn't think about 15, 20 years ago. Cancer, headache, Couple acquaintances have strokes, you know, in their 40s. And yeah, man, it really gets you, it really gets you to start thinking about mortality. But also it does drive that passion behind how do I get more involved? And I know one thing you definitely, you wanted to talk about as part of this episode is you have a very strong personal why that you allow to reveal itself through your public service. And whether it be your family or friends, here's what I'd love to hear from you, Mark. I think most agencies, when they hire a producer, one of the things they encourage that producer to do is to get involved, get on a board, serve on a board, get involved with an organization. What I don't think they spend enough time doing is helping them find the one that fuels their passion. I think a lot of producers just go find a board to sit on because it might equal sales down the road. If you don't mind, I'd love just to have you share. Obviously, your why is very strong. But because of that, because you're going at it from a place of service, not sales, it actually has led to more sales success. If you don't mind sharing. Now, I think that's a big thing for people to hear.

Again, it's a bit of a selfless thing. It's also kind of thinking forwardly as far as what's my legacy look like. Like you said, you start thinking a little bit as far as your mortality. What is it that you're going to leave behind? Because we work within claims. On a regular basis. There's a new claim that comes up, you write, you just write a policy. And of course, there's maybe a claim around the corner. So, it's a little silly not to think about what is it that you're going to leave your mark on. I haven't joined any particular boards as of yet. I've worked on some committees, which I'm very happy about the results that I was able to contribute on them. But more within the organizations that I spent a lot of time with, like the Council Suburban Professionals, NAAIA, National African American Insurance Association, you know, associating myself with individuals that also have the same passion on different scales in different sectors, and also kind of giving them guidance from a risk perspective on kind of the projects that they're working on. And sometimes they'll reach out and rely on me to kind of give them some insight on how best to go about doing things. And it kind of gives me a boost, number one, that I'm doing something right, I'm presenting myself well. And number 2, that I'm really helping move some more agendas that I don't really know so much about, but I know that people really could use the assistance from. And helping people like that get their message and mission across is, you know, it— I really can't say it just helps it really helps kind of make my day better every day coming into work, knowing that all my work is paying off at the end of the day.

Well, and just to prove that you focus, your mission is service, not sales when you get involved, you were named the 2026 Visionary of the Year for the Blood Cancer United. How did it feel to receive that?

So it's still ongoing. I appreciate that. It is a candidacy. So I was nominated as one of the candidates.

There's a few— I should say it says Visionary of the Year candidate. But even regardless of winning it or not, what does that mean to you to be nominated?

It means a lot. It absolutely means a lot because you have to have a certain amount of character. You have to be seen as a good person at the end of the day. It's not, again, As much as the great networking and groups and people you rub shoulders with and the rooms that you're in, it's also a sentiment of what type of person you are. So that goes beyond and further than anybody else could do as far as this guy is the top salesperson of the entire world. It doesn't really matter at that point. I think, you know, having this achievement and some of the other ones that I've gotten in service matter more to me in my character than any sales award would.

That's awesome, man. Well, regardless of the result of that nomination, I think that is a testament to just the passion you have behind what you do. I think there's so many nuggets to glean from this episode, Mark, from, you know, building brand to being a student of the game, you know, what separates the elite from everybody else, to the mission. I think student of the game. If you are a student of the game and you also have a mission for what you do, behind what you do, I don't think there is anything that can possibly stop you in this industry, quite frankly, any industry. But we're talking about insurance. I think what stops so many short of reaching their full potential is, one, they don't have a passion for what they do. And two, they don't have the self-discipline to see it through when things get tough. So when they hit that first roadblock, they're out and they're selling something else next year. And I think it's guys like you who give me kind of a refreshing sense of like, we need more guys, more men and women like you who are obsessed with being a student of the game and have a true mission for what they do. So I want to thank you for that.

I appreciate that.

Thank you. So I didn't prepare you for this last little piece of the episode. We're going to get to know Mark a little bit. Are you cool with that?

Let's go.

I am a man who preaches habits, rituals, and discipline. So I love to hear from the guests kind of how they rely. I think I'm going to get some good responses from you being a student of the game. One of those that I am very passionate about is my morning routine. I love how I prepare myself to get ready for the game I call business. What is your morning routine, Malcolm Egan?

My morning routine is not for everybody. I have 2 small little ones that are under 2. So it's actually a bit difficult to kind of have a standard morning routine.

You said 2 under 2? Yes.

Yes. So it's really kind of tiptoeing around, getting through the house and getting out the door. But it's also taking a moment to— personally, I take a lot of time to reflect. I say a lot of— I say prayers every day of, you know, being grateful of where I am, I had the opportunity to work at such a high level, continuing the opportunity to do good and spread good, be an influence for those that watch me, for my children, for my family, be a great example for the organization that supports me. And, you know, ultimately try to be that thought leader that I know that I am. Mm-hmm. That people look at me as and continue to raise the standard. I'm really, I'm really big into competitive sports. Love Michael Jordan, love Kobe Bryant, love Shaquille O'Neal. I'm kind of a guy that I get inspiration from people. I don't get envious because again, if someone else can do it, I can do it. I've watched The Last Dance, I'm going to say about 10 times. They're about an hour-long episode. Each, but absolutely gets me in my zone. Let's go do this. Let's go knock this out and, you know, you know, plant that flag at the top. And it's again, it's, it's in the benefit of everybody at the end of the day. But yeah, my morning routines are a little bit different.

Yeah. Well, you brought up a really good point, right? You named, you said Jordan and Kobe, possibly two of the most obsessed people the NBA has ever seen. Then you said Shaq, who people have said, had he been obsessed, hands down would've been the greatest player who ever lived. And it's, yeah, those guys talk about playing at a dominant level, right? Dare I ask how many hours of sleep you're getting at night?

You dare.

I'm gonna say it's not the standard 7, 7.5.

No, no, I have to get 6 to really function well. Worse, some days might be 4 to 5. And, you know, I just got to shout out my wife for all of her support and seeing my dream and understanding what I'm doing somewhat. They never really understand, but she's been a big help in getting me where I am today. I couldn't do it without her.—

They gotta— they're the ones who deserve the awards.

Yes.

Big believer in movement, moving the body. You may not have a lot of time for that right now given this— having 2 small children under 2. But if you had 45, 60 minutes to exercise, what would you choose?

Oh my gosh. Yeah. That's— that's something I've created as far as a plan for myself. I'm big on creating— visualizing what my next year is gonna be. I usually do that, like, maybe a month or 2 before I get into my birthday and just gradually keep growing that list and just shaping it a little bit more as I learn learn what I want. That was definitely a big thing for me to carve out this year. So about 35, 40 minutes, I'm, you know, maybe starting off with a nice circuit, but definitely starting going out into isolated areas, chest and back and so on. But if I can't do it, I'm huge on walking. I love running. Did that in high school. Last year I ran the New York City half marathon.

Nice.

So I'm one of those, again, strange people that like to run.

Kind of a— what do they call the popular term these days? The hybrid athlete, right? It's a mix of running and lifting some weights on the same way. So love hearing that. How about if you had an afternoon to yourself? Again, wife's going to take the two little ones away from you for the afternoon. What would Mark be doing if he had a full afternoon to himself?

OK. Not studying for a designation.

I was just gonna say, please don't tell me it's reading something.

I really would. I really absolutely would.

Okay. Okay.

But other than that, I'm working on my golf. I live right next door to Bethpage State Park where they just had the Ryder Cup. So I gotta sharpen that up. So I actually have a date with my wife in a couple weeks. We're gonna go and do that together. So I'm actually really excited to do that.

Yeah, I think that's one of the toughest courses in America, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah, it is. I'm not all the way up there. I'm still at the, at the driving range.

Uh, last question. Being that you are a student of the game and a reader, any podcasts you've been listening to or books you've been listening to or reading that you recommend right now?

You know what, I actually, I love when I run into someone that's into reading. I wasn't so much into reading, and that's another part of why I like to tell people about getting to financial services, especially in insurance, because people don't really understand what that looks like. They just think it's really hard, but it's really just creating the mindset. So I, I, I've read Four Agreements, I believe, is a really great book to start reading. Let me grab my phone because I actually sent this to somebody. I'm sorry.

Is that Paulo Coelho who wrote— Yes, he also wrote, I think, The Alchemist, which is one of my favorites.

Alchemist as well was on the list. Um, Practices of Groundedness.

Okay, yeah, no, it's— I like that.

Uh, it was actually Don Miguel Ruiz.

The Alchemist. Don Miguel Ruiz wrote The Four Agreements.

Yes. There's Essentialism by Greg McKeown. And then a good old self-help book from Bob Proctor. This one is actually really great because I actually like one of the key messages that he puts in this book. It's called Change Your Paradigm, Change Your Life. And one of the things that he did was he mentioned the fact that he just got into reading books. And he was reading one book particularly, and someone had commented on the fact that, "Hey, you're still reading that book?" He's like, "Yeah, I'm still reading it." And he kept reading it over and over and over. And there was a period of time where I just kept reading, reading, reading for volume. But I think it's more important as far as the substance that kind of you're picking up from it. So I will read more of the same book with new takeaways than I'd rather read a new book. Mm-hmm.

Any day. I have certain books that I read every year, but to your point, I've heard a lot of people, you know, a lot of good mentors say, instead of reading one book a week, 52 different books, why don't you read 13 books 4 times, or better, 4 books 13 times each? You know, just study a specific book because to your point, every time you reread it, you're going to pick up something new.

You've already conquered the challenge. There's a whole new challenge. Life is about the valleys and peaks, as I like to tell people. So you're going to come into a new valley and then you're going to put your flag on a new peak and then you should be finding a new challenge afterwards.

Great way to end, man. It's been an honor to have you. If somebody was inspired and wanted to reach out to you, what's the easiest way to get in touch with you?

Sure. So find me on LinkedIn. I coincidentally, people reach out to me all the time, college students, high school students. They ask me about insurance and what I think and I I'm happy to talk to you.

That's awesome, man. You're an inspiration.

Thank you.

Mark Vitalhurn, everybody. I think a lot of people are gonna love this episode, Mark. Thank you for taking the time.

I appreciate the opportunity.

Be good, everybody. See you later.