How To Build More Effective Health Plans (with Shabsai Shuchatowitz)

Hey. Hey. Welcome back to Bullpen Sessions podcast. My name is Andy Neary and this is episode 299. I am excited today to be joined by Shabzai Shikatowitz. Shab Tsai is the CEO and founder of Evergreen Benefits Group in Chicago, Illinois. I just love this man. This is a man who walks his talk and he is doing great things in the health insurance industry. In this episode, Chevsai shares some golden nuggets on how to build more effective health insurance plans. He talks about his journey into the industry, but more importantly, you get a peek behind the scenes of what makes Sheb side tick. This is one busy individual if you think selling health insurance is hard enough. He not only runs an agency, he's the father of seven. He is a volunteer EMS in Chicago, Illinois. He has clients all over the country. He flies to. He's a cyclist, he does it all. And you are going to get a master class on what it takes to be successful in the health insurance industry. So I'm excited to bring Shabzai story to you. You will gain a ton of insight into how you can build better health insurance plans for your employees, but also what you could be doing off the field to have more success in your career. So episode 299 is full of golden nuggets from Chevsai, Sugar Towicz. Let's dive in. Here we go, episode 299.

Hey.

Hey. Welcome back to Bullpen Sessions. I am excited today. I have got Shabsai Shikatowitz joining me. Shebsai is the CEO and founder of Evergreen Benefits Group in Chicago, Illinois. Shebsai, welcome to Bullpen Sessions.

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, Andy.

Yeah, you bet, man. I wanted to have you on because you and I have had conversations about this in the past. But when I see somebody who's doing really good things in the industry with really good intentions behind them, I think the spotlight needs to be shown on them. So before we get into all that good stuff, one thing I love to ask all my interviewers, how did you find yourself in the insurance industry? Because most of us didn't get it. Get in it by design.

Sure. Yeah. You would think that each of us thought as a three year old, hey, I want to become an insurance agent, right? Exactly. One way or the other, God led me down this path. I'm very passionate about helping people and this is one of the manifestations and abilities that I have to be able to go and help people through designing health insurance plans for them.

So how long have you Been in the industry.

I've been in the industry about 13 plus years now.

Remind me again, I might have the story wrong. You didn't start your career in Chicago, is that correct?

Correct. Originally from Baltimore, Maryland, I lived in New Jersey for some time. Moved to Chicago in 2010. Happy wife, happy life and Baltimore, Chicago actually both have a lot of the Midwest warmth.

A lot more personal, you know, perspective and warm, passionate, caring communities. And I was working in a large school district, a private school here in Chicago. Great to get to know the community. My children all go to that school system. And shortly thereafter I was looking for opportunity, you know, with some level, you know, performance based compensation to support my rapidly growing family. And one thing led me to the next and I joined New York Life Insurance. Focused on helping people with their retirement planning needs, financial needs and kind of the group benefits and health benefits over time. That's where I am today.

Okay, so I'm curious because we never talked about this. So when you were, what were you doing for the school district?

So I was doing, I was working as the assistant executive director.

As community development, office management, coordinating projects, finances. So really getting to know the community, which is a great initial position here in Chicago and kind of springboarded me to where I am today.

And when you brought up performance, enhanced performance based performance, enhanced performance and base compensation.

Was it the recurring revenue opportunity, the kind of the sky's the limit opportunity that the insurance industry presents, Is that what really attracted you?

So initially it was.

The ability to be able to essentially eat what you plant, eat what you sow in a sense.

In the individual financial planning markets, there's less recurring revenue, certainly initially than, you know, on a per sale basis, you know, for, you know, advisory client. But with time, you know, it does grow and especially on the group employee benefit side and certainly that's, you know, where I've gone through the, you know, both individual side enhanced benefits, you know, and out the core benefits. And certainly, thank God there's recurring revenue to, that's helped us, you know, consistently grow.

Yeah, I, you know, I asked the questions because I think this is a great way to create a lot of relatability with people because most of us didn't get in the industry by design. Most of us got in because we saw the revenue, the income opportunity. Right. And I'd be curious because I have my own journey. So you started with New York Life over time, what caused you to gravitate towards benefits?

Sure. So even while I was with New York Life Insurance and really right away I Recognize that most people want their benefits through work, most people want their insurance benefits, coverage via payroll deduction and most people are at work between nine and five. And those are my preferred work hours as well too. My, you know, preferred hours are not 9pm at a kitchen table, individual life insurance or annuity policies. We've all been there in a sense, but I prefer to do it at 10am instead of 10pm I have a lovely family, I love to be at home with them, you know, in the evenings. So really starting to be able to look at that more as a B2B in terms of employee benefits. Initially it was enhanced benefits, life insurance, disability insurance, and those are critical.

Financial planning tools. They still are today. Hasn't changed. However, I gravitated more towards the health challenge that people are having both in accessing care, affordable health care, as well as designing plans that are more affordable for employers to be able to offer.

With greater access, greater transparency, greater equity in a sense, regardless of community or background. And even though retirement planning is an entire world in and of itself, and certainly I focus on that, you know, to a larger extent for a number of years I started moving more and more with time over to not only the employee benefit side, but specifically towards the health side which we've seen as having that many more challenges. And with challenges come opportunities to be able to solve problems. And that's what I love doing.

No, I. Your journey and mine are actually really similar. I started at New England Financial and outside of giving my the two pieces of advice I was given at age 22, which was to dye my hair gray so I looked older and go buy a membership at a country club I couldn't afford because that's where the CEOs hang out. I didn't like the fact that I was sitting at a kitchen table at 6, 7 o' clock at night trying to convince somebody to invest their retirement savings with me. And I also made the decision at that time to go to Federated Insurance, which was commercial and benefits because I'm like, well those are work hours, I'm selling insurance businesses. So a very, very similar journey. And then I gravitated to benefits because even though all of them require education, I just felt like there was a huge opportunity to make an impact through education with benefits. Would you, would you agree on that?

Absolutely. The impact we have on people today is profound. For some people it's game changing, for some people it's life saving. So it is significantly profound both on a financial basis. We deal, I believe over $100 million in medical claims annually, premiums and claims. But on a more personal level, a one on one to provide the.

To provide the medical care for someone when they really need it. It's a tremendous sense of fulfillment and.

You know, I'm taking care of them.

What drives you? You know, you're doing a lot of good things. We're going to talk again business. We're also going to talk a little personal stuff here. But like you're a very passionate person about what you do. And I always feel when an advisor finds their passion for what they do, that's when they become unstoppable. And let's be honest, there's not a lot of people in our industry with a passion. They're just selling insurance to make money. What drives you every day to get up and help businesses make an impact on the lives of their employees?

Sure. So there's. My passion is helping people. I'm extremely passionate about that. I been an EMT for 20 plus years. In 2017, I took off a year, essentially went to the equivalent of medical school, became a paramedic. I'm a very active volunteer member in Hunzal Chicago community based volunteer EMS organization that charges zero to any patient for any care. So unlimited care, no cost. I love doing that. So I have a very clinical perspective. If I wouldn't have gone the insurance route, probably would have become an ER doctor, maybe a trauma surgeon. Very passionate about providing, you know, direct care and clinical care for people. And I still get calls on a daily basis in, you know, providing care and support for people in my community. But recognizing the.

Challenges with regard to accessing affordable care and the challenges that businesses have today in as a business owner, which I am myself, in providing affordable coverage. With the ballooning cost of healthcare today.

It'S infuriating on the one hand how businesses and the American public are being taken advantage of. And on the other hand, there's so much opportunity in helping people accessing affordable care, accessing care both physically and financially closer to where they may live or work. And educating business owners, CEOs, CFOs about how the healthcare systems work, how health insurance really works and how to really to break it apart and build it all back together for them in a simplified, transparent model that is actually designed to be able to help employers and employees. Today, the health insurance world and the healthcare world that we really know is really not designed with the end user, the employee, the single mom and her kids, or even a family like myself or any average American that needs to access the healthcare system it is not transparent. You do not have comparative price information, do not have quality of data information. You cannot compare either quality or cost. And it's the only industry in the entire world, frankly, where such a thing exists. You cannot compare the quality of doctors, providers, you know, today. You cannot compare the cost of that today. It's an insane world on the one hand. On the other hand, the insurance companies, you know, they designed that and they're, you know, that's their secret contracts for the hospitals and what they build and what they charge and how they pass it on. And, you know, it's a continuous cycle which in a certain, you know, extent is unsustainable. And, you know, my grandfather, my mother's father, was an eye doctor in Philadelphia, and he provided care, you know, for people and extremely, you know, as a doctor, but he would make house calls, he would provide costs for people on a charity basis. And thinking about how healthcare is today versus how it was, you know, not only 100 years ago, but even 50 years ago, it's a complete game changer. The healthcare system today, I really call a sick care system. It's almost like the hospitals, they want you to fall off the cliff and then build a hospital on the bottom to be able to care for you and provide the fee for service and care, as opposed to providing preventative care and building fences on top of the mountain so people don't fall off the cliff and get sick. So I have a tremendous passion about educating people about options, about providing guidance for people, how to access care, where to access care, and then collectively doing that one business at a time, I call it one community at a time, to be able to redesign their health plan, to be able to provide care for the end user on a more equitable, fair, transparent, and easier financial basis.

If I, if you can't sense Chev size passion for what he does, just in listening to his voice, that's, that's what passion sounds like, man. And I think that's why you've been able to have the, the amount of success you're having right now in growing evergreen and impacting the lives of those you serve. Let's talk about. Okay, you talk about improving the benefits being offered to the workforces that you've had a chance to, to impact. In your opinion, what are some of the core components, some of the core pillars that go into an effective health insurance plan.

Sure. So really, when you break down what insurance is, you know, whether it's your fully insured plan or your standard large national carrier, whether it's the blues or whether it's united or whatnot, or it might be some other variation thereof. There are four or five key components, I call them pillars of really what health insurance really is. Those four pillars really start with the administrator, the plan administrator, and that might be a large carrier network or might be what people call a TPA or third party administrator. And that is one of the key components of the plan. They're administering the plan, they're coordinating the plan, they're receiving claims from healthcare providers, they're making those payments, they're analyzing those, they're adjudicating those. So having a really strong.

Administrator or third party administrator, ideally an independent administrator, is really the bedrock in setting, you know, a solid foundation for a well designed plan with the end user in mind. So the first is the administrator, second is, is really the pharmacy benefit manager. How they're going to access pharmacy today, how they're going to access medications today. People might think that this is just done, oh, it's just on all, you know, combined together by your same carrier or network or provider. But really this can be a separate pharmacy specialist. And if designed properly, and if you have the right pharmacy specialist, you know, coordinator or administrator, they can actually save your plan a tremendous amount of money without eliminating value at all to your employees. So they can actually add value while saving tremendous amount of money all at the same time. So then you have your administrator, you have your pharmacy, your medical, your administrator, your pharmacy benefit manager. And now you have your, you know, behind that is really you need to be able to go through underwriting. So a core underwriting team. Again, often that's done, if it's done by a national carrier, they have their underwriters. There are amazing independent underwriting teams today, master general underwriters that go through this underwriting and then put the, you know, the next pillar in place, which is really the insurance component, which is the stop loss. Having a bedrock stop loss provider in case of a catastrophic claim, in case of an employee has, whether it's a transplant or whether it's a baby in the NICU or whether it's a horrific cancer claim, you need to be able to have the actual insurance component, the stop loss component. And there are a lot of creative solutions today which actually can save a tremendous amount of money. But having an amazing underwriter, having a very good relationship or working consistently with them is showing them the difference that you can make in supporting your employees, providing care for them and everything that you manage with regard to eligibility and employee management. That's also Critical in terms of designing the plan and having that in place. That applies to the underwriter and the stop loss. And then there's also a number of other components. You know, there's medical management, which is critical. Very often this is, you know, in traditional plans it might be done by the carrier, but it can be. And again, an independent, you know, clinically run organization. We work with a couple of them that are, you know, run by clinicians that do amazing work. They coordinate care, they have nurses, they have doctors, they have access to high quality scoring information and they can really support the employees at the user level when they need a second medical opinion. When they're told that they need this medication or that surgery or they need to see a doctor or they need to get this mri, they can really support them through it, through that entire journey. And, and there's a lot of savings that involve with that as well too. So they're not only improving the clinical outcomes and the access to care, but actually saving cost wise at the same time. And really when you look at those four components and obviously myself as a benefits consultant, you know, the quarterback, the coach, that's really putting that entire team together, you know, they all need to be designed and aligned and it all has to be a very strong, cohesive teamwork, all designed with end user in mind. And.

That requires a tremendous amount of transparency, coordination and focus on dedication towards the end user, the employee, and not on trying to enrich themselves throughout the process. Rather, yes, you can provide a tremendous value while you're still getting paid at the same time. But those are the four key components of really what a well designed health insurance plan is. Because made out of.

Well and you and I have talked offline about, you gotta be careful in building, you know, in, in building these core pillars. You have to be careful of who you align with from a partner standpoint because it's got, you got to make sure the partners you're aligning with are, are backing up their talk with walk right with action and that they're, they're completely in 100% aligned with your client's best interest. And if you're willing to talk about this, you know, I think when it comes to solutions, you talked about stop loss and there's a lot of problems we could talk about with stop loss or things you should be careful or, and look out for, you have two choices. You can complain about the problem or you can fix it. And I think you decided to take it upon yourself to fix it. If you're okay talking about It Shep Tsai, talk about what you've done as an organization at Evergreen to really say, hey, we want to provide a better Stop Loss experience to our clients and then potentially to the market.

Sure.

So.

One of my firm beliefs is in building very strong relationships. And when you build strong relationships, then you could have open discussion, you could have open dialogue, you could open up more than you would with a stranger or just someone that you're shopping, whether it might be a pharmacy, benefit services or wellness services, or Stop Loss. And you get to know each other and get to know each other's strengths and maybe even some weaknesses at time. But once you able to be able to develop that relationship, you're able to actually gain that much more value from it. So we've developed a very, very strong relationship over a number of years with a wonderful underwriting group and we've been able to build rock solid stop loss solutions with them. We've built not only one, but two different captive solutions with them. And Captives can provide a tremendous amount of benefit today in the health insurance stop loss world. We built one for a single parent captive from one of our very large clients. We solved a number of compliance issues that related to them. We work with an amazing compliance team out of Baltimore that provides amazing compliance support services. And it's critical to have all of each and every one of these components with aligned with the same perspective, but building those relationships, developing them and then working with them to create new solutions for problems that arise. So we've been able to build one large parent captive. We've been able to build a group stop loss collective captive. And we come across all kinds of challenging groups. No claims data, minimal claims data, bad claims data. And working with our partners and some of the different AI solutions that are available today, we are, I feel unfazed. I feel like I'm up to, I'm up to bat over here. Sorry, it's pointing the wrong direction. This baseball player over here, I feel I can get up to bat every day and throw me a problem and I could tackle it because, you know, we have these solutions today that are built for the current market, that are able to take on the current challenges. Whether it might be no claims data, we have solutions for that. Whether it might be bad claims data, we have solutions for that. And you know, that's one of the key components that brokers and consultants, you know, collectively struggle with. And instead of shopping it around from one carrier to the next and playing what I call the ping pong game between United or Blue Cross, or your this TPA or that TP or this stop loss or the other one. We have core solutions, we have core that we've built out and really are unfazed and undaunted by any of the challenges that arise from them. And we have solutions that can solve almost any group that comes my way at this time.

What I want to hear, if you're listening to this, what I want to hear you, what I want you to just pick up from what Shabsite has shared. Shepze, what you do is not easy work. It's hard work. But this is what happens when you're passionate about solving a problem and you're, you're willing to put in the work above and beyond just selling a fully insured solution off the shelf. You're willing to put the time and the work into fixing the problem and you're not going to stop until you do. And that's one thing I've always admired about you, is that commitment to help a client solve a problem. And by the way, if it doesn't work, we're going to find something else and if that doesn't work, we're going to find something else. And it's that non stop stop commitment to make sure you are doing everything you can to help your clients win. I don't see that a lot in the, in the insurance industry, let alone the benefit space. And I hope the people who are listening hear that. This is the passion we're talking about. I'd love to get your insight on, on this Sheb site if you're willing to share. There might be some advisors listening in who represent a smaller agency, independent agency. And one thing I've always admired about you is by pure numbers, you don't have a big team, but you work with some extremely large clients, thousands of employees. What advice would you give that smaller independent agency owner that might be listening in, that is trying to go upstream? What advice would you give them? What can they be doing to stand out to win that kind of business? You guys are winning.

Absolutely.

I'd say it's a number of factors. I'd say, you know, certainly number one, need to be able to align yourself with partners with, you know, with co workers that share your values, that share your commitment, that share your culture. It's a, it's relentless. There are challenging days, but we have a perspective. We will get to the other side regardless of the bumps or the walls in the way. So it's about key, you know, it's about key relationships and developing those with A key team. It also parlays into some of the, you know, partners that you work with. We have the perspective that both we are partners with our client and their clients are partners with us. And we are also partners with the solution providers, healthcare solution providers that we work with. I don't look at any of them as vendors, but whether they're TPAs or PBMs or medical management, and we don't view ourselves for our clients as vendors either. The highest compliment that we've gotten from some of our clients, we are their rock solid partner. We've been with one group as an example for the last six, seven years since they started as a startup. And they have over 2,000 employees today. And we've been with them every single step of the way. There have been some great days, there have been some highs, there have been, there have been some challenging days, but we're with them every step of the way. We are not perfect, but we recognize we are your partner and we will get through this through thick and thin and that's the perspective that we take. So it's having the right people with the same values as part of your team, building out those high team, being willing to be able to pay for top talent. We've gone to headhunters when we've been interested and we're willing to pay that top dollar to find that top talent to provide these top solutions for our clients. We are innovating, we are changing. So you need to have that perspective if you're going to provide a world class difference maker, world class healthcare system, that you need to be able to find the top talent. Because this is not so simple, this is not easy. This does take commitment, this does take knowledge. Now knowledge can be learned. However, culture and commitment and values, that's something which has to be ingrained. So you really need to be able to build out, you know, your bedrock of a team. You could build off of that. You need to have a team with passion. You need to have a team with empathy. You need to have a perspective. We also, we lean into technology very much through our technology systems, our amazing technology team, integrating information, integrating data. But I always believe that, you know, check its technology with empathy, with compassion. So there has to be the human element behind that technology system. And that's what I believe, you know, is critical, you know, today to be able to really, you know, consistently grow in building a team with authenticity, with passion, with genuineness. And that's what people are really seeking and that's what people are really striving For. And I think that collectively, you know, some of these key components, you know, really make a difference for us.

Yeah, I think it goes back to passion again too, man. I, I hope again, I can hear it in your voice. Anything's possible when you put passion behind it. And, and you're showing up every day with that passion. So I want to use the rest of the time here to let people get to know you a little bit. You. A couple things that people may not know about you. One you just brought up a little, little while ago. You are a volunteer EMS with Hatzila in Chicago. And does that. Remind me, does that serve the. The Chicago mar. The. The Chicago population as a whole or is that more. Is that, does that provide emergency services to the Jewish Orthodox community?

Sure. So it's not exclusive to the Jewish Orthodox community. We are on the far north side of Chicago and into the suburbs, including Lincolnwood, Skokie, parts of Evanston, West Sardis Park, Peterson park in Chicago. It's non denominational, however. Yes, it's primarily based on a, you know, Jewish Orthodox community of all volunteers, complete volunteers. And we actually have doctors, accountants, business owners, lawyers that are all teachers that are all part of our amazing organization providing education for the community. Healthcare prevention. Just yesterday, there was a healthcare fair in our community. There are hundreds of families and children attended the CPR training, this first aid training, even now have our own EMS classes. We have four ambulances, three.

Community response vehicles. But we're embedded in our community. We're very passionate about providing rapid care again, at no cost to the community at all. And being able to provide, you know, that shoulder to be able to lean on when people may have questions, they may have questions related to medicine and Sabbath, different religious perspectives that may come to play. But it's, you know, it's open for the entire community and it's non denominational and, you know, we respond and be careful. Anyone that calls us.

That's awesome. I have two questions I'm very curious about. One, knowing what you do today as an advisor, as a founder of Evergreen, helping employees get better access to the health care system.

How is your experience as a volunteer EMS shaped how you advise your clients today on the biz, on the benefits side, because you get a very unique view into the world of health care from your volunteer position. How has that impacted your advising?

Sure. So I'd say twofold. Number one, it gives you perspective in terms of what a bad day is.

I respond to calls all the time where people are in car accidents, people have heart attacks. People have children with trauma or, you know, and whatnot. So what? Having a challenging day, you know, at work pales in comparison to a challenge that some.