Insights On Stop Loss And Ancillary Benefits In Insurance

Hey, hey, welcome back to the Accelerate Your Insurance Sales podcast. This is our Broker's Voice series. I am excited to be joined today by Maeve Koja, the newly appointed COO of BCS. Welcome aboard, man.

Thank you, Andy. I am happy to be here and thanks for having me on.

Yeah, no, we're gonna have a fun conversation.

Yeah. Yes.

I always love to start with the backstory. You know, when I look at our industry, a lot of people say, you know, it's got a low bar to entry, right? Anybody can get in it. And most of us did not get in it by design. But you've been in, I think, since what, about 2000? Is that right?

That's right. It's a great question. I never thought I would be working in an insurance company. Although I am an actuary, I went to school to be an actuary. I studied actuarial science. But my interest coming outta college was really to go work at a consulting firm. And at that time, like late '90s, pension consulting was super hot. And during one of those times when the companies would come down and do a presentation for the college kids, I just, I was so enthralled by this guy who worked at Mercer. Which is a really big employee benefits consulting firm. He was a pension actuary and he just got me really jazzed about going down that path. And I ended up getting an internship with Mercer. I worked there the summer of '99 and then ended up going to work there full-time. And that's how I got into the industry. I mean, certainly I knew that I was gonna be doing actuarial sort of work coming outta college, But I was more interested in the consulting path and I ended up working for Mercer.

What the heck first pulled you into this industry? I'd be curious, and I know we'll get into this a little bit, you know, you think actuary, right? Immediately my head goes to introvert, loves to be behind the scenes, loves numbers. And you and I have had this conversation about being introverted, right? How do you think that's helped you? We'll fast forward here soon to what you're doing today as the chief operating officer at FBCS. How do you think getting that start in the industry has, it still leaves a, it still has a positive impact on what you're doing today?

Yeah. Well, look, I am an introvert and yeah, I mean that, that hasn't really changed for me. Other than the fact that I work on it, I practice trying to be more comfortable in big crowds and in what I do in terms of giving presentations and things like that. But I feel like it also has made me very relatable to most of the people that I've done business with over the past 20 years. I've always kind of focused on the financial side, the number side, and over time you end up meeting the actuaries at an insurance company, you know, where I am today, BCS, who are owned by all the Blue Cross Blue Shield companies, and primarily what we're selling into is services that like the actuarial team would be interested in. And so I think it's kind of benefited me from having this actuarial background, and I kind of lean into the fact that I'm an introvert.

Welcome to my world, brother. It probably actually makes you very relatable to some of the people you are working with on the other side. And I agree with you. I think there's a lot of people— I've talked about this in other episodes— there's a lot of people in our industry that are introverted. And I think there's, especially on the production side, sales side, there's people who believe you, you know, anybody who's good at sales is, must be, must be an extrovert. And I don't think that's true. And, and I think one of the reasons we exist, Complete Game Consulting, is I think a lot of the training in the industry has been designed for extroverted people. And it's a lot of your introverts could be really good salespeople if you design training that supports them.

That's right. Look, I think everybody is, always gotta be selling something, right? You're selling yourself, you're selling your company, you're selling your services, you're selling your capabilities, right? And so there's always an audience on the other side of that. And that audience is made up of all types of people, whether they're introverts or extroverts. And so this is not purely a game for extroverts. Everybody, there's enough room here for everybody.

Yeah, I agree. So you started on the pension actuarial side. When did you make— a two-part question. When did you make the transition then to more healthcare and then why?

Yeah, it's a bit of a long story here, but I really did not like pension actuarial work. But while I was doing it, there was a project that I was primarily posted up on called Retiree Medical, which is a shared project amongst retirement actuaries and healthcare actuaries. And so sitting at Mercer, I was exposed to a lot of the team that was in the healthcare practice. I decided to leave Mercer in 2004 because I just wasn't really jazzed up about having this pension actuarial a career path, and I was kind of hopping around working, not working, kind of just going through quarter-life crisis during that time. But I ended up coming back to the actuarial profession in 2007, and I just, all I knew at the time was I don't want to work in consulting. It was too many hours and I didn't want to devote that much time And so let me go work for an insurance company because everybody on the actuarial path, when we were in college, they would tell us, look, you could go work for an insurance company. You'll probably work 35 hours a week. The work will be boring. Or you could go work on the consulting side and you might work 70, 80 hours. Well, I, I already went through this experience with Mercer where I was a bit burnt out, so I knew I didn't wanna go back down that path. And there was this really interesting company, Destiny Health, which was a very new insurance company at the time. Their kind of claim to fame was, you know, putting together a high deductible health plan with a wellness component. And I went to go work for that company because I was really interested in what they had going on and I thought it was a very cool product idea. I got lucky enough to be hired into the sales side of actuarial work, as opposed to the risk management side of actuarial work. And so it was a really good kind of combination of my skills, and it was a good place for me. I went there, and 6 months into being there, they decided to exit. Health insurance. They basically came to the conclusion that it was really hard to compete against companies like Aetna, Cigna, United, and the Blues. And so at that point, I was in healthcare for a little bit of time. I was interested in the work and I thought, okay, let me go back to a place like Mercer where I have a different healthcare experience. And maybe I can use my skills back at a consulting firm. So I actually went back to Mercer in 2008. I got a spot in the healthcare team, and there was a lot of familiarity when I joined in 2008. I ended up working with some of the actuaries that I would— that I was working with in my first stint when I was in the retirement team. And so, it was kind of a comfortable move for me to go back there. And that's how I ended up in healthcare.

Yeah, it's interesting. You brought back some memories because I started my insurance career with Federated Insurance, which was a captive. You sold commercial benefits, disability, life, but it was all Federated. And I can still remember, in fact, I can, why I remember this, please don't ask, but it was about '06, '07. I can still remember sitting in the office at a lumberyard of a prospect, seeing this Destiny Health thing, going, "What in the hell is this?" And I just remember looking at the numbers going, "I can't compete with that." But it was the first one that really was pushing this wellness, which I've always been into the wellness. I was like, "It's actually kind of cool." I was going to ask you, small world. So, when you were there, were guys still there selling like Marc Gagne and Ken Sloan?

Yeah, it was a different approach.

Okay, so small world. Clint— Ken Sloan is the guy that helped me get out to Colorado. So when we made the decision to move from Milwaukee, Wisconsin to Colorado, I had reached out to like UnitedHealthcare or something, or I was talking to a rep and I was like, hey, we're moving, you happen to know any connections out there of somebody who can kind of give me a feel for the market? And they're like, yeah, Ken, Ken used to be in the Midwest, Ken He's out in Colorado now selling for UHC, reach out to him. And it was Ken who kind of gave me like, here's some good independent agencies you should think about talking to. And I ultimately ended up working for one of 'em. So Ken, I could, I could say Ken was a gateway for me to, for us to actually get out to Colorado.

Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. So I haven't kept up with Ken.

Yeah. He's, he's gone on to work for several different companies since.

Okay. Now I do know that Ken's in Colorado. I ended up interviewing at that company, Destiny Health, later on. They reformed, I just shouldn't say they reformed, they rebranded into Vitality Group. Ken was a part of Vitality Group and I ended up interviewing with that executive team, including Ken. I don't know, this is probably like 2014 or '15. Wasn't a good fit at the time, but that group at Destiny Health is, they're extremely tight. I still keep up with my old boss. In fact, he's Michigan alum, I'm an Illinois alum. We were making plans to go watch the NCAA championship game together. No, I'm an Illinois alum, but obviously Illinois didn't get over the hump and lost to UConn. So that didn't end up happening. But I still, there's, There's a technology guy that we are doing some project work with today, and I know him from 20 years ago at Destiny Health, and he and his family moved out to Colorado and they're like neighbors.

But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That, okay. And Ken was a part of Vitality Group for sure. I know. Yeah.

Yeah. This is a small world.

Remind me, are you a Michigan alum?

Like, okay. Now I do know that Ken's in Colorado. I ended up interviewing at that company, Destiny Health, later on. They reformed, I just shouldn't say they reformed, they rebranded into Vitality Group. Ken was a part of Vitality Group and I ended up interviewing with that executive team, including Ken. I don't know, this is probably like 2014 or '15. Wasn't a good fit at the time, but that group at Destiny Health is, they're extremely tight. I still keep up with my old boss. In fact, he's Michigan alum. I'm an Illinois alum. We were making plans to go watch the NCAA championship game together. No, I'm an Illinois alum, but obviously Illinois didn't get over the hump and watch the UConn So that didn't end up happening. But I still— there's a technology guy that we are doing some project work with today, and I know him from 20 years ago at Destiny Health. And he and his family moved out to Colorado and they're like neighbors.

Yeah. Yeah.

This is a small world. That's right. We are a company that's wholly owned by all the Blue Cross Blue Shield companies. We were set up 75 years ago to do things that our owners couldn't do. And mind you, 75 years ago, there was probably 200 Blue Cross Blue Shield plans. Today there's like 31 because over the course of time they've consolidated. But 75 years ago, all of these plans were known for like their local major medical coverage. And they couldn't do certain things, and so they set up BCS to have a 50-state footprint. So we have life, accident, health, property casualty. On the employee benefits side, we are a stop-loss carrier, we are an ancillary carrier, and we're newly into life and disability. And so we distribute those products through the Blues, through our owners. We also distribute those products directly through the broker channel. I would say we're further advanced on stop loss, and so we're distributing with all the big national players through their national panels. On the ancillary and life and disability side, I'd say it's more curated brokers that we're working with today. We're just not the size where some of those household names are willing to engage with us, but we're pretty confident that we'll get there. Beyond the employee benefits lines, we're also a major reinsurer, and a lot of our reinsurance is through our owners. So excess of loss is a typical product that health plans are buying. We launched a gene therapy risk product that our owners participate in. Gene therapy is like one of those things that it's These are lightning strikes. They're $2 to $4 million claims, but they don't happen very often. And so instead of all the Blue Cross companies setting up their own risk mechanisms for that, we set up one that all of them, almost all of them participate in. So we're a very big reinsurer. And then we also have like this property casualty side of the house, which is really interesting. We are, so if you ever go by your airline tickets on American, or if you buy a hotel stay at the Marriott, they give you the option of selecting trip cancellation protection. And you'll see that's—

Which I have never done, but I have to admit, I'd be curious just to have you put your thought leadership cap on for a second, 'cause I know you do a lot of work leading up to the role as COO. You were doing a lot of work in the stop loss. Stop loss, man, it's a hot topic right now because, you know, I've had a lot of conversations with clients, others in the industry right now where self-funding has always been, hey, you want more control, you want more transparency, you go self-funded, right? But let's be honest, stop-loss is taking a hit. You know, what's your viewpoint if I said, give me kind of the state of the union of stop-loss right now, where would you put it?

Yeah, but you'd be surprised how many people do. And so you'll see that that product is underwritten by BCS Insurance Company. So that's actually a product affiliation that we have with Allianz, and that's like a 35-year relationship we have. But, you know, I would say, you know, to kind of answer your question, employee benefits, reinsurance, and some curated property casualty products is what, you know, which doesn't sound bad, but that's high. Yeah. Stop loss is hurting right now. So if you look at the loss ratios, The 2024, which is the most recent data we have from the NAIC, says that the loss ratios are at 86%. That is high. We are not a major medical carrier. So when you think about major medical and you think about MLRs, you think like 85 is where it needs to run. Stop loss needs to be more like 75, and that's because the product is more volatile. but there's also a lot of layers. There's premium tax, there's broker commissions, which broker commissions are higher on stop loss than they are on major medical. And so this product needs to run more at like a 75 in order to cover all your expenses and for the insurance company to make an underwriting profit. If they can't make that underwriting profit, it doesn't make sense for them to be in the product. And if you look, this is all public information, but in the past 2 months, Zurich, RGA, and Swiss Re have all exited medical stop loss. Now Swiss Re, so Swiss Re has 2 sides of the house. They have a direct side of the house and then they have a reinsurance side of the house. They have exited the reinsurance side, not the direct side. So I wanna make sure that The audience understands that you can still go to Swiss Re, your Swiss Re rep, and still get stop losses. That's totally available. Their reinsurance side has exited medical reinsurance.

Well, Swiss Re has as well.

That is high. We, we are not a major medical carrier. So when you think about major medical and you think about MLRs, you think like 85 is where it needs to run. Stop loss needs to be more like 75. And that's because the product is more volatile. But there's also a lot of layers. There's premium tax, there's broker commissions, which broker commissions are higher on stop loss than they are on major medical. And so this product needs to run more at like a 75 in order to cover all your expenses and for the insurance company to make an underwriting profit. If they can't make that underwriting profit, it doesn't make sense for them to be in the product. And if you look, this is all public information, but in the past 2 months, Zurich, RGA, and Swiss Re have all exited medical stop loss. Now Swiss Re, so Swiss Re has 2 sides of the house. They have a direct side of the house and then they have a reinsurance side of the house. They have exited the reinsurance side, not, not the direct side. So I, I wanna make sure that The audience understands that you can still go to Swiss Re, your Swiss Re rep, and still get stop losses. That's totally available. Their reinsurance side has exited medical reinsurance. Yeah, the captives. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember when I got to Mercer and started learning about self-funding. So again, my experience before that at Destiny Health was fully insured. When I got to Mercer, you start working on really large self-funded accounts, but as you go down market, you start asking the question like, at what point should a group not be fully insured? When should they go self-funded? And everything that the mentors were telling me at that time was 400 employee lives. When you get to 400 employee lives, you should move to self-insured with stop loss. And I would say today the market has gone significantly below that level. If you're at the right size, stop loss should be no more than, let's call it 15% of the total expense. The other 85%, you know, most of the 85% should be claims. You know, let's say 5% is TPA fees. The other 80% should be claims. When you get to these like 25 and 50 life groups that are in the captives and they're self-insured with stop loss, their exposure to stop loss is like 30 to 35% of the total cost. And I just— that might feel right in the first year because you got some savings to move that direction. But I think at that level, there's a lot of volatility that these small employers are taking on. And look, I'm not advocating for them to be fully insured. I'm advocating for them to have really in-depth conversations with their brokers about their long-term goals, right? And you certainly don't want to be hopping around from captives back to fully insured, back to level funded. You almost have to have a philosophy on that that you're going to stick to for some time, right? And you certainly don't want to be hopping around from captives back to fully insured, back to level funded. You almost have to have a philosophy on that that you're going to stick to.

This episode is brought to you by True Captive Insurance. What if you could take full control of your healthcare strategy without the financial burdens of traditional insurance? At True Captive Insurance, they make that possible. As the only captive in the nation that puts up the majority of collateral on your behalf, they provide financial flexibility from day one, making them an advocating partner for their customers your success. True Captive's fully customizable plans and cost-saving strategies ensure you never have to choose between affordability and quality care. It's time to break free from the limitations of conventional insurance. Take the next step today. Visit truecaptive.com and discover a smarter way to manage healthcare. That is truecaptive.com. Wow, that— yeah, there's a lot of volatility, you know. I'm hearing situations where captives, you know, stop-loss trend being almost 20%. And that's— it almost gets to a point where you have to argue, like, at what point is this now looking like a fully insured plan? Not the self-funding, the cap— if now we're absorbing, and I understand, you know, stop-loss is just one piece of it, but like self-funded renewals, I think, in some cases over the last couple years, I feel like have almost started to reflect fully insured renewals a little bit. But it's because we're all dealing with just a— they're all dealing with a heightened level of claim activity.

Yeah, I'm with you on that one. But what do you tell the smaller employers then that are sick and tired of healthcare costs going up as fast as they are? You know, it's a tough tough thing to solve because as a broker, you want to be able to provide them solutions. And unless you take them self-insured, there's not a lot of solutions other than just marketing to other fully insured carriers.

Yeah, I agree. I think there's— it's almost like on the flip side, you see programs that sell themselves as self-funding, like a lot of the level-funded solutions, right? Where you're like, okay, maybe you are by definition, but I'm looking at your breakdown of your costs and 75% of the cost is fixed and 25% is claims. Don't tell me that is a true self-funded opportunity.

I'm with you. We are very focused right now on bundling products together. And so where we can provide stop-loss coverage and the ancillary benefits We see a lot of upside in that, and we're willing to work with the producers to make this an integrated product. Let me tell you what I mean by that. A lot of stop-loss claims are also critical illness claims, hospital indemnity claims, and I would tell you the big knock on the voluntary benefits industry is that these are products that are unknown by the members. And so they don't even know to file a claim. And because of that, the loss ratios are in the 30 to 40% range. And, you know, the carriers in that space are high-fiving because they're making a lot of money. We are very interested in integrating these products. We are very interested in the claims integration aspect. And you can get to that when you work directly with the TPA. So where we can get claims data, we can actually integrate an auto adjudication for voluntary benefits. And when we do that, we see the loss ratios go up much higher, more like 70%. And we're okay with that because we want these products to be utilized. And then where we can combine them and make it an integrated offering, it really brings a lot of value to the employers. And honestly it creates stickiness for us, but we're basically talking about the same type of claim. We're just in one hand reimbursing an employer, on another hand reimbursing members.

Agreed. Agreed. What I was going to say is, all that being said, it's still better than what's happening today, right? Let's talk about— so you guys are a jack of all trades in a way from an insurance perspective. Where do you see the biggest opportunity? So if there's an advisor listening in, Where do there's, where does there tend to be the biggest opportunity to partner with BCS?

That's right. That's exactly right. You know, that's a tough question for me to answer because from a distribution perspective, we're willing to work with anybody. I think right now we're seeing a lot of brokers coming to us because they're challenged with their current list of stop loss partners. I mentioned to you those 3 players that have exited the market. Beyond that, there's some other carriers that are having some pretty tough loss ratio issues, and that's translating in how they're giving rate increases to their customers. And so that for us is opening up opportunities with all types of brokers, the big brokers, the small brokers. We see a lot of the brokers that are utilizing the wholesalers, we see a lot of activity coming from them. And I think it's because this product line stop loss is increasing at such a rapid rate that if there is a way to almost reduce the value chain, kind of, you don't need a wholesaler, then working with a producer, like we should be able to work directly with the producers. And so I think in that space there's some opportunity to tighten up the pricing. And so we're seeing producers coming to us from that side. And then for the producers who understand this topic of claims integration on voluntary benefits, it's a little bit more forward-thinking. It's a little bit more technology-integration-driven. And for the producers that are more interested in that, they're coming to us, talking to us about those products.

Yeah, good way to put it. It's actually encouraging utilization because those are the programs that should be used.

You know, what we're really focused on is cost containment, and that— don't read into that as we don't pay claims. Read into that as we want to help brokers and employers pay the right claim at the right time. And if there's an opportunity to either audit that claim or redirect drug claims to lower-cost services, we're very focused on that too.

Yeah. Yeah. That's what about, what about the ideal broker? So who is, what, what does the ideal broker or agency look like for BCS?

You know, I'll give you an example. We, we had a group that was using a really high-cost cancer drug, Keytruda, and basically just by changing the site of care on Keytruda from a hospital to an infusion center, the cost dropped in half. And for us, that was the difference between lasering on renewal and not lasering on renewal. And so I think in that instance, it, it drove a lot of value for the employer and the broker because they were able to partner with us to bring this idea to the employer. But I really think the stop-loss industry is moving in that direction because the loss ratios are just at unsustainable level. So either you dig in on cost containment or you exit the market. And we're not interested in exiting the market. We're interested in improving our position in the market. So we're going to really dig in on cost containment.

Well, and I think I'm going to say something that hopefully doesn't make me sound ignorant, but I'm going to go for it. If I heard you correctly, you know, you talked about encouraging the utilization of the ancillary benefits. And in essence, the encouragement, if we can increase the stop loss ratio of an ancillary product, we should be reducing the loss ratio of the medical claims.

Yeah. Okay. It is a benefit. So they're different reimbursements, right? So if a member has cancer, that is going to be a stop-loss claim. So we're going to go ahead and reimburse that claim. But if that member also has a critical illness product, we will pay that member an indemnity payment, something between $5,000 and $20,000. And you think about what is the purpose of that product? Well, I had a cancer claim. I have major medical coverage, but for those individuals that are going through that situation in life, they need other types of financial help. They may need to take time off of work to go get treatment. They may need to have a family member do the same. They may need to travel long distances to go to a center that has the treatment center. It may not be available to them. And even though they had major medical coverage, there's expenses that mount for those people that an indemnity product helps with.

I'd be curious, so could I— dare I say, you talked about bundling stop-loss with your ancillary. Dare I say ancillary can become a cost containment? And it's interesting because I remember how I used to sell against a carrier saying they auto adjudicate their medical claims. I'm like, that's a bad thing. That means they're not even looking at the claim, they're just paying them. But what you're saying is almost in the ancillary world, I view auto adjudication as more of a benefit because it can make sure that claim is paid as the, with the ancillary product and potentially knock down or keep the claim off the medical sheets.

That's right. That's right. So I wouldn't say that the voluntary product keeps the loss ratios lower on the medical side.

And then probably, and are not covered by the medical plan.

Yeah, I kind of view it as, look, these are separate reimbursements for separate issues, but they're tied to the same underlying claim.

Good, good perspective shift. Yeah, I probably said that the wrong way.

Yeah.

Well, it's almost like you're saying, we're going to make sure the claim is paid and insurance covers it. At the same time, we've got your ancillary, so we're giving the member that added benefit of making sure they're financially taken care of in a time of crisis. Yeah. Well, quick question for you, and then we're going to dive in to get to know you a little bit if you're okay with it. You know, you took on the COO role at BCS, I think, effective April 1st. Is that right? Roughly April 1st. What does success look like for you, man, over the next 12 to 24 months in that position?

Exactly. Exactly. Sure. That's right. That's right. Yeah, great question. I'd say right now we are really focused on growth and profitability. So prior to this role, I was the chief growth officer. And so profitable growth was really the name of the game. At this point, I want to continue that profitable growth, but I have a better appreciation for what it takes to operationalize anything that we do, especially new things that we do. So I had mentioned to you that we're newly going into life and disability, and whenever you go into a new product, there is all sorts of system work that you have to do. There is accounting work that you have to do. There's business partners that you have to have piping with because you're sharing underwriting resources, you're sharing distribution resources. There's a lot that has to happen behind the scenes. And so it's not just having a product and selling a product, it's also being able to operationalize everything that needs to happen from collecting that premium to being able to effectively pay claims. If we can't do that backend stuff right, there's no point in doing the frontend stuff. So I'd say right now I'm equally balanced on not just growth and profitability, but being at a place that we can operationalize everything that we're doing. We're a little bit behind on operationalizing everything that's currently on our list. And so, you know, kind of fast-tracking some of that work and making sure we're being very mindful about the next new products that we go into.

It's a good way of putting it. It's like, as chief growth officer, the focus was what's coming in the front door. Now in chief operational officer, it's let's make sure that stuff stays in-house. Let's operationalize the backend so people don't leave. You're protecting the back door. In the front— in growth officer, you're opening the front door. Now you're trying to keep the back door closed.

That's exactly right. Yeah. And I mean, we're, we're a small shop. We're 165 employees. So a lot of us wear multiple hats and then in situations like our company, you can burn people out. So we want to be mindful that we're not doing— Sure.

Right. No, love that. Well, man, let's get to know you a little bit. You okay with it? I'm a big proponent of discipline, habit, rituals, routines. One of my favorite things is my morning routine. So I'd be curious for Maebe Koja, what is the, what does a typical morning routine look like before work starts?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mornings are me time, so I'm typically up by 5:00 and no later than like 5:30. I try to get a workout in in the morning. I got a home gym, so that makes it easy. I'm a big believer in sauna and cold plunge, so that's part of the morning routine. And that's kind of like the last stage before I start making breakfast for the kids.

The old contrast therapy. I love it.

And yeah, and so that's basically how the mornings typically go for me. A little bit of time for myself in the morning, try to get some calorie burn, try to, you know, juice my body up to get ready for the entire day. And then if I'm in town, I am making breakfast for the kids and my wife and I share duty. She takes one to school, I take the other to school, and then I'm off to work. And that is most days. I do travel a fair bit for my role, even before this role as Chief Growth Officer. And I would say a lot of the beginning part of the year is focused on business development at an enterprise level. So we're at that stage now where like I am definitely traveling less. I don't want to be traveling into the summer because I want to be around more often. That's right. I want to be able to enjoy it. It depends on what the goal is that day. The goal is cardio, then it's treadmill on an incline. And I typically turn the TV on. I'm listening to like CNBC in the morning and I just put the treadmill on an incline and I just go at it. And the whole point is to get steps, is to get the heart rate. And then I'm just listening to like financial news in the morning.

Sometimes it's, it's nice in Chicago in the summer. So take me to the home gym if you had 60 minutes, or what's your go-to workout in the home gym?

Yeah, that's right. That's right. And sometimes it's just about a little bit of weight training. So I keep it simple. I have like a kettlebell. And so I do a bunch of different various exercises with kettlebells that just kind of hit a bunch of different things. Man, I am probably going to the Pickler and playing pickleball. And I don't know, I, I have played less in the past 2 months because I've been on the road a lot. But yeah, that's a solid morning routine. And if I get the afternoon free, I'll go there. I'll do that too.

Cool. Cool. What about an afternoon? If you had an afternoon to yourself, no kids, no wife, no family, what are you doing? Have you heard about this new one? I forget what they call where now they're combining pickleball, tennis, squash. So it's the size of a pickleball court, but rules like tennis, but you, or, and you can hit the balls off the wall like racquetball. I forget what that might be. Rules like tennis, but you, or, and you can hit the balls off the wall like racquetball. I forget what that might be. Now what, what else can we do to make this sport different?

Yeah, I, I've heard a little bit about that, but you know, the way with these things go is unless you have a place to go play, I don't know how you learn. It has, I mean, there's so many of these places that have popped up. So there's like the places like Pickler, which is, it's for like serious pickleball players. But then there's these places that are, it's kind of like the equivalent to like Topgolf. So, you know, you don't have like super golfers going to Topgolf, but it's a place where you can go have fun. You can get food, you can get drinks.

Pickleball has definitely taken the country by storm. It's pickleball is a part of the experience, not the experience.

There's pickleball equivalents to that. So it's basically a place for people to hang out and then play pickleball on the side.

What about books, audiobooks, podcasts, anything you're listening to right now that you recommend?

That's right. That's right. Yeah, I'm trying to get back into reading. I'm reading a book right now called Zero to One. It's by Peter Thiel and probably halfway through that right now. In terms of listening, I've always been a big Tony Robbins fan. So I like to listen to his stuff and I'm doing one of his audio courses right now called Ultimate Edge. So that's always good. And then in terms of podcasts, I like this one called How Leaders Lead. It's by a guy named David Novak. He is a former CEO chairman of Yum Brands, which owns like Taco Bell, Pizza Hut, a lot of other like fast food type of Entities. I really like his podcast series. In fact, my own podcast series is very much mirrored off of his, and he's gotten a lot of great leaders to come on his podcast, and they're from all walks of life. They're from the corporate space, they're from sports. And so I've always found his podcasts, I, always enjoyed them, but there's always like leadership lessons that you can learn from different types of leaders. So I always like listening into that one because I feel like I can always walk away with 1 or 2 new nuggets of information.

That's great. That's awesome. I just wrote that one down. I'm going to go check it out. Well, thanks, man. This has been an honor to have you on, man. You're a good man. If somebody was listening, especially an advisor who says, all right, I actually want to know more about how BCS could potentially help some of my clients, what, what are the easiest ways to get in touch with you?

Yeah, so I'm very active on LinkedIn. You can find me on LinkedIn and depending on what type of interest you have in BCS, I'll steer you towards one of our leaders. So Liz Mittland runs our large claim solutions business, and that's where the Stop Loss product sits. Drew Neslin, he runs our supplemental health line, and that's where our products like ancillary benefits life and disability, fixed indemnity, they all sit under his watch. And so I'll get you connected to these folks and they'd be happy to talk to you and fill you in on what we have going on at the company.

Sounds good. Meb Koca, everybody. BCS. Meb, thank you. Everybody else, be good. Get connected with BCS, see how they can help you and your agency thrive.

Yeah, appreciate it. Thank you.