Poor Communication is Killing Your Sales Pipeline | with Max Conaboy

you get into the just following up cycle, the doom cycle, I call it. Just, hey, you know, have you thought about, or was I clear about something? Or, you know, that follow-up trap where each time you send that, hey, do you have a minute, or hey, I'd love to follow up. I mean, you continue to make yourself more irrelevant with every single type of follow-up.

Welcome back to the Accelerate Your Insurance Sales podcast. Andy Neary here, founder and CEO of Complete Game Consulting. I'm excited today. I am joined by Max Conaboy. Max is a producer and client leader responsible for developing new client market relationships with Aon. He co-leads Aon's Global Life Sciences client development practice and has had the privilege to call Aon home for 10+ years. Max, Welcome to the show, man.

Andy, thanks for having me, man. I am a huge fan. When you reached out, I was absolutely thrilled to be able to participate in the podcast. Really, congratulations on building an impressive platform.

Well, I appreciate that, man. Thank you for the kind words. And I have to tell you, you know, when you and I talked offline about getting you on the show, just, just your background, what you're doing today, I thought, yep, this is absolutely worth the conversation. Where we're going to go today for those tuning in is we're going to talk about communication. And how a lack of, uh, can cost producers, especially when it comes to the sales pipeline. But before we dive in, I always, I always love to start with more of a, okay, let's get to know Max before this insurance career. If you're watching the video and you look behind Max, you will see a, uh, frame there with a rugby jersey. Uh, Max, you play, you played rugby, uh, rugby at Kutztown in Pennsylvania.

I did.

Home of Andre Reid for NFL football diehards.

Andre Reid Stadium. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

What— I'm curious, playing college rugby, okay, when you run into anybody who plays rugby, you immediately think, okay, you're a badass. Um, going back, thinking about that sport first, what did that sport teach you about performing under pressure? Because I mean, it is knock them out, drag them out. Yeah, I feel like the pressure's on every single second of a match in rugby.

Yeah, I, um, you know, this is— for me, rugby is when preparation meets clarity. Um, it's absolutely— the training is rigorous, uh, the physical fitness, the mental clarity needs to be there, um, and then you need to execute, right? And, and the game is absolute chaos if you've watched or participated Andy Neary. In any rugby, it's fast-paced. There's not much stoppage time like other sports. You have very little opportunity to kind of collect your thoughts and collect your breath. And I think that's a good example of something that the sport really brought into my life is preparation and execution and how those two things are interconnected at that moment. There's always that high-impact moment where you've done the preparation and here's the opportunity, and do you deliver execution in that moment? So for me, that's what rugby really, really delivered into my life. I was in my college years, so it was a great opportunity, man. I mean, you are like ready to learn and you're physically probably at your peak, not like as a 40-year-old now. So all of those things coming together during a college career was a fantastic example of of how it would impact my life professionally.

I interviewed a guy, Ryan Chapman is his name, about a month or two ago who also had a rugby background. And one of the things I always find interesting about rugby is it's one of the— it's, it's actually how I try to equate that what I think can be a very successful culture inside an organization. The thing about rugby, what that I absolutely admire is you guys can literally beat the piss out of each other for the length of a match is.

Yes, 80 minutes.

80 minutes. And then at the end, you shake hands and grab a beer with each other. What did that kind of culture teach you?

There are competitive dynamics in rugby that are no different in the business world. I work in the city of Philadelphia. I live in a collar suburb. I live and commute and, and work with these professionals that we are competing with on a day-to-day basis. I think in listening to other episodes of the podcast, Andy, I clearly get the, the sense that it's competitive out there. But to be able to do it in a way that's professional, that elevates the industry, that elevates the role, the originator, the producer, the sales guy, or girl role. I think that's really key is understanding that in the end, the client, the policyholder, the buyer, the C-suite executive, they own the outcome and delivering a great outcome in a competitive way, I think elevates the entire industry.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I, you know, I think about some of the best cultures I worked in in the insurance industry, and it was that there were days it was tense. Sure, there was days— there were days you might get after each other, but at the end of the day, you— you— at the end of the day, you can look at each other and say, hey, I love you, man. And I think that's important. I think that that type of, uh, environment is actually good for people. It's how the best— it's how the, the most winning teams are developed. It's that high level of accountability where you're going to get called out if you're not doing your job. But at the end of the day, you know, each of you support each other. Sure.

Absolutely. I think—

and I think you're— go ahead. Sorry.

Increasingly, the market dynamics are such that these— a lot of firms are coming together. Consolidation. Uh, I mean, if you look at Aon's, um, most recent acquisitions, uh, you are typically working alongside professionals that you are interlock you are working in an industry that at any given time, two large players come together, there's asset divestitures. So you just really never know professionally when people come in and out of your life. And that, that was true in rugby, especially in after college in the men's leagues around Greater Philadelphia, people come in and out of clubs, you just, you really never know when you're going to rely on someone for an outcome and making sure that you always treat people with First and foremost, respect and treating them the way you would want to be treated, but also with professional respect. I think that really creates the environment for a positive, a positive long-run career in the insurance industry.

Good point. That's really actually well, well said because I look at so many markets, you know, you're in Philly, there's a ton of competition.

Oh gosh, absolutely.

You have to, you have to compete fairly. At the end of the day, you're trying to beat the heck out of each other, but do it with respect.

Mhm.

And I think that's something our industry needs to hear more of, because I'll be honest, even today in 2026, there's a lot of people out there who compete in ways that I just don't— I don't know, I just— it's a very narrow lack mindset versus that, hey, I'm going to get after you, I'm going to try to take you down, but at the end of the day, I respect what you do for you and your clients.

Mhm. Mhm. I, I, I say it in conversations all the time. I've taken the approach, and I think Aon has taken the approach that we are all in the same industry, we are all after the same goal, essentially, is really great outcomes for clients, understanding the client's risk across, you know, their physical operations, their people operations. But ultimately, all of those benefits of competition should accrue to the clients, to the policyholders. And if you do that in a professional way, I think everybody, everybody ends up okay. Yeah.

It's last thing I'm gonna say about, you know, the, the, the, the chance, the, all the times I've had the chance to interview former college athletes, 'cause there are so many of 'em in this industry.

Yeah, sure.

I, I feel like it's, you could literally look at the, some of these athletes are gonna be mad at me for saying this, the type of, depending on the sport they played, you could almost dictate the level of success they're going to have. And I, I say that because I've rarely met a wrestler, for example, who has not been extremely successful in insurance.

Sure.

Or probably any industry they're in. But the reason I say that is because look at the kind of self-accountability and grit and grind it took to be a successful wrestler. Same is probably true with rugby, football players, right? Those sports where the amount of grit, grind— I'm just going to label the word brutality, whatever that is— those are the athletes I see today in the business world often having the most success. Why? Because they often had to hold themselves most self-accountable.

Absolutely. Oh, I totally agree, Andy. I think it's an important point. Any sport that has a combination of individual requirement and team requirement, that dynamic is really going to help us thrive in a professional capacity. If I feel individually responsible for an outcome and so too does my team, I think that really drives a fantastic result.

That's actually an interesting conversation maybe for a future podcast, looking at athletes in the industry, what sport they played, was it team or was it individual? Sure. And because I, I bet you'd probably see the break, the following type of breakdown. If you played a team sport, which I all, I always played team sport until I was an adult. Then I did some triathlons, things like that. But I always played team sports. So team sport players are probably good fits for team cultures in many ways, right?

Mm-hmm.

But if you wanna go find a killer producer, no doubt, no doubt. No guarantees finding somebody who played an individual sport at a very high level. Mm-hmm. Would probably lend itself to a very successful producer. Not to say others can't be, but I guarantee some of the best producers were individual sport standouts.

Absolutely. Oh, absolutely. I think the, the, the things that motivate individual sport athletes are very similar to the things that require— that are required of a really high-performing originator or producer. Self-motivation, self-starting. The ability to feel personally responsible for any given outcome. I think those are the things that really drive individual producers. Recovery. We don't talk a lot about recovery, but in the context of sport, recovery is equally as important as preparation in the context of insurance production and origination. The ability to bounce back from no, a no decision, cancellation on an important breakfast or lunch or dinner. You know, losing out on an opportunity. Those things require a tremendous amount of mental elasticity. And I think if you can do that and develop that muscle, you are going to really stand out in the insurance production and the agency model. I mean, you will hear no. I hear no all day, every day. And it's waking up and going right back after it the next day, sometimes inside the same day.

Yeah, I had a, a previous guest, Thomas Cox, say that, you know, this industry isn't hard, it's mentally tough.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

And you have to be mentally tough as a producer because you're gonna take a lot of rejection. You're gonna have to battle your way to a yes. And you're right, it, it requires you at the end of the day, it's not overly hard, but it does require you to be mentally tough for sure.

I totally agree. Totally agree. I, you get that dynamic from individual sport. I get that dynamic inside the four walls of the Conaway household. I have four children and a wife. I hear no and I get rejected all the time. And you need to develop, you need to develop that real mental, mental toughness. I think, yeah, if you can bounce back from no and you can do it professionally and with, with energy, you've got a long track record ahead of you.

Well, I don't know if you've ever battled this or thought about this in your career. I used to think about this all the time when I was struggling selling insurance early in my career. I'd catch myself in moments where I was like, okay, why am I stressing out? Why am I freaking out in this sales situation? And then I put myself back on the pitcher's mound. When I was a pitcher and there was a guy on second and third with one out or whatever, I was so calm, I was so collected, I was confident. Why can't I take that same calm and collectiveness to this sales situation I'm now in? I always, I battled that a lot because I did, I did find myself being a lot more calm in mentally tough sports situations than I did in tough sales situations early in my career.

No, absolutely. Absolutely. It's, you know, the sooner you get comfortable with being uncomfortable, which is, I think we hear that a lot, you know, the faster you're going to advance your insurance and agency career. Being uncomfortable in that moment and continuing to perform through that uncomfortability is really what separates elite performance from kind of modest to moderate performance.

Well, let's transition over to your insurance career. Most of us did not get here by design.

Yeah, right.

Right? Very few of us were born to be a second or third generation insurance advisor. How did you find yourself getting into the industry?

So I had graduated from Kutztown University, Run with the Bears, where I played rugby, with a political science degree, and I also had a paralegal certificate in the state of Pennsylvania. So that was the equivalent of a pre-law degree. I entered a medical malpractice defense law firm and shortly, shortly understood that I wasn't cut out to be an attorney. And so I spent about 2 years at that medical malpractice defense firm. I was in complex litigation. It was challenging. It was fast-paced. But as I thought about what it took to be a really successful litigator and the idea of going to law school, those things weren't for me. I wasn't so well endowed to be able to perform really well in law school. So, I did what a lot of young people do. I reached out to my parents, to be honest, Andy. My dad was at a middle market brokerage in the Philadelphia area. He was well connected around the market and he introduced me to a couple of the people at Aon. They were hiring for an analyst position in the Philadelphia office and the rest is history. But I think you're exactly right. I think this industry, if you look at some of these firms, there is generational influence and generational talent inside these firms. And I frankly, call me a nepo baby, but I think that's great. I think you've got a family that's built around an industry. You've got roots in an industry. You've got advisory that you can take from your parents. I do think it translates into a successful career when it works.

Oh yeah, I mean, I've talked about this a lot lately because we have a few clients who, you know, are the benefactors of this. You play your cards right in this industry and you have success, you actually make professional athlete money in this industry.

No doubt, no doubt. I think the other thing that, that what, what that generates is a real commitment to an industry, a real commitment to being, again, like we talked about earlier, being professional, being courteous, being respectful, understanding that I've got 3 sons. I think this industry has legs. I don't envision the insurance brokerage or underwriting industry going anywhere long term. I think it's a fantastic place to work. I think it's dynamic. I think it's ever-changing. I think its relevance will continue to grow in a professional capacity. And I would love for my sons to consider that as a career. So that really, frankly, engenders a commitment in me in professionalism and and respect because I never know who I'm going to lean on to, to maybe facilitate an introduction and an opportunity.

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I did. I did. I started as a sales analyst in the Philadelphia market, supported, you know, general sales operations activity inside the Philadelphia marketplace across our risk and people business. And that was where I got my start. So it was a great opportunity to see the entirety of a sales cycle from, from identification to prospecting to, to, to proposing to closing and then post-close execution. The analyst position still to this day at Aon affords the opportunity to see all those things in concert when they work well and frankly, when they don't work well. And those outcomes. So I joined as an analyst and I spent the first, you know, 5 or 7 years of my Aon career in operational or commercial type roles internally for the firm. So ultimately achieving the, you know, Director of Operations for our US sales and marketing teams. But there was an incremental growth in there, but it was mostly internal commercial roles that in my first couple of years at the firm.

So you've seen sales from all angles then, from you were the back office support to now you're frontline.

Sure.

Let's talk about, you know, this is a topic very near and dear to my heart because it's why our company exists. Communication, sales communication.

Mm-hmm.

You've mentioned to me offline when we first connected how so many producers struggle with communication. Why do you think that is?

So I think, you know, I'll just use in the context of AI, I think a lot of insurance producers are not anchored to outcomes. They anchor themselves to habits. And when a new technology comes along, which our clients are using to facilitate speed within their business, I think if we're anchoring to habits, I do things a certain way all the time, And that's, you know, that's my habit. Even if successful, I think that's where I find peers of mine really start to struggle when new approaches, new technologies come into the industry. You really need to be anchored to what derives the greatest individual outcome for me and the greatest outcome for my client. And embracing new technologies is one of the ways that I think that that, that comes through the industry. So I think anchor to outcomes and not habits. And I think anything that comes down, comes down the pike, you can, you can adapt to.

So I'd be curious, when you say technologies, are you like, are you referencing technologies that have helped us change the way we communicate, like Zoom and Teams and stuff like that? Where is that? Is that what you're referring to with technology?

Yeah, I think that There are technologies out there that help sales professionals gain more relevant information about prospective buyers and markets. I think they can more effectively manage, you know, low-impact tasks. How do I manage my email traffic and my calendar and my to-do list? All of those things, you know, how do I personalize my message on top of an AI model? How do I, how do I touch the broadest section of clients and identify, you know, what are those trends and what's relevant to each, each client? To, to sit at my desk and do that individually is incredibly time-consuming. To have our artificial intelligence, general generative or agentic artificial intelligence, drive some of those outcomes. I mean, you can 10x your own individual outcomes when you, when you use those technologies effectively. So And communications is no different. There are— we use a tool inside Aon that helps us, you know, we develop a client narrative, we develop a presentation, we submit the presentation and our live performance into this tool, and the AI provides feedback and verbal cues and nonverbal cues about what's going on in the room and how we could improve the delivery of that message. So, embracing those things, embracing that outcome, although it's out of our normal habit, really can affect, really impact the outcome for some of these clients and some of my individual performance as well.

Yeah, you actually bring up a really good point. You know, when I think about communication, number one, it's how are you communicating, right? Which meaning like, what is your sales message to get the right prospects to say, tell me more? But over the last 5 or 6 years, the channels by which we use to communicate that message have drastically changed, right? Like, for example, I'd be curious, are you using any channels of communication today with a prospect or a client that you maybe didn't use pre-COVID?

Oh, absolutely. I, I think, um, I, I think messaging applications have become much more, much more ubiquitous across client communications. You know, I think things like LinkedIn, things like WhatsApp, I mean, clients are much more approachable. They are much more fluid in using those technologies than ever before. Email, you know, if I had to like stack where I would, where I would get the greatest return, email was typically at the top. Increasingly email is moving down that stack in terms of what drives attention, what drives response times, how do I meet clients where they're at, where they prefer to be. And so that's always ultimately the goal is go to where clients, go to where prospective buyers are. And that's how you need to be relevant and resonate with clients. You need to meet them where they're at. And that includes the tools that they're using to communicate.

Such a good point. You know, you think about how you and I were taught, right? The traditional modes of prospecting were— would be the cold call, the cold email, door-to-door.

Sure.

One thing those all have in common is a gatekeeper that has only gotten stronger, right? You pick up the phone, you're going to get a hold of a gatekeeper. You send an email, security is the gatekeeper, and it's Tighter than it's ever been. And even if you drop in, you're gonna run into a gatekeeper. I feel like today the communication game is how do I avoid the gatekeeper? Well, that prospect puts their cell phone number on their business card. To me, that is carte blanche access to send them a text or an audio note.

I agree.

Two, LinkedIn DMs. Guess what? LinkedIn DMs don't have a gatekeeper. It's like you're lit— you brought up WhatsApp. You probably— we probably have some people tuning in going, what the heck is WhatsApp? It's just another form of community. I put all our one-on-one clients, Max, on WhatsApp now.

Yeah, no doubt.

Just so we can send instant communication when necessary. But to your point, we're playing a completely different game. And if you're not trying to use those channels today to get a prospect's attention or communicate something to a client, you're missing out on a big opportunity.

Absolutely. I think too, Andy, it's important to recognize the generational shift in our industry. I, you know, these are digitally native These are decision makers who grew up using these tools. These are decision makers who are frankly more informal in how they communicate. They are more, and that includes how they use technology to communicate. Where in the past there was a lot of formality around dear so-and-so, regards. I mean, these are very fluid conversations. You don't need to, you know, I always say to our teams and I take my own advice, Cut it in half, write it, edit it, then cut it in half again because you need to be succinct and formal when needed and informal when needed. I think it's a really dynamic way to communicate with clients and prospective clients. But the one thing that I would say is of increasing importance is just the generational change in who's making the decisions at firms.

If I were to give anybody a tip on using AI for sales communication right now, or any kind of communication, it's go prompt AI simply to say, write this, be clear, concise, and write this at a 5th grade level.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

So people understand what the heck you're saying. It, it's funny, Max. I, Amy and I were at the gym yesterday morning. We ran into actually one of my old bosses who has purchased new office space downtown in the town next to where we live. And so he is like, hey, you wanna come take a look at the new office? And so we went over and visited it and He was talking about the fact he just acquired another commercial insurance agency recently. He was kind of just— he was kind of describing the agency as old school. He's like, just to put it in perspective, they still have 4 typewriters in their office. So you talk about— you talk about people just not adapting today in our industry to— it's not about recreating the past. It's you have to completely reinvent the future. And the way we communicate is very different. Let's shift to actual sales messaging for a second. As a producer, where do you think a lot of producers go wrong? Like when they think about how I'm gonna prepare a sales message for a discovery meeting.

Mm-hmm.

Are there any areas do you feel like producers over-prepare and underperform? Are there, are there opportunities they're missing when it comes to a sales message today?

I think a lot of the professionals that I work with and I work alongside have accumulated technical knowledge, professional designations, but have not accumulated an equal amount of the ability to deliver that message in a non-ambiguous, succinct, you know, intentional way. The idea of, you know, the real challenge is translating all of that technical expertise And just side note, like, insurance is not technical, but it's also incredibly technical. It's a highly regulated industry. The policy language every single cycle gets more and more complex. We live in a world where natural catastrophe activity continues to increase. The amount of risk and volatility in the world is ever increasing, never decreasing. So The ability to translate technical depth into executive-level framing and delivering that in a clear way is something that I find really challenges professionals in the industry. So, you know, that would be, you know, one takeaway for today is eliminate ambiguity, especially at the end of a meeting, right? You do a 30-minute discovery call. You have an executive who tells you all about— I mean, you should leave that meeting with a very clear set of expectations for what you heard in the meeting. In my case, how Aon is relevant to delivering solutions to those opportunities or problems. And then what are the follow-ups? And do that in a non-technical executive-level way. This thing is dollars and cents. It's black and white. And You only get one shot at the first meeting. I think that's the other big message is, you know, understand that even in a virtual environment, we are making inferences and judgments about the people we're meeting in 7 seconds, sometimes less. So you need to show up really well prepared. And as human and non-perfect as possible. And you need to do that in a virtual way. It's incredibly challenging, but if you can do it well, you really stand out from the field. When you meet somebody who is dynamic, technically expertise, and can deliver a message concisely, they stand out. You want to do business with that person.

There was, yeah, several nuggets there to unpack. I want everybody to hear. One, you said don't be vague. Ambiguity sucks.

Mhm.

Two, want everybody to hear what you just said: show up as a human who's non-perfect, right?

Absolutely.

That, that is very important these days. Which leads to the third nugget: nobody cares how smart you are. We operate in an industry where, God, I love to tell you how much I know about how this watch was built, when all they want to know is that it tells time.

Mhm.

And I think that's really important. If you're going in to impress, it's going to be very, very hard to get that second date.

Absolutely. I mean, these are humans dealing with humans. So the more you can show up executive ready, you know, for Aon, data informed, we invest $1 billion in, in data and analytics, um, and human, you will absolutely secure a very relevant second meeting. Not a second meeting to then redefine the first meeting. A second meeting where you're talking about actionable outcomes, products, services, timelines. I mean, all of those indicators of a buying decision, they should be present in that second meeting if you've done well in the first meeting.

You mentioned ending a meeting without ambiguity.

Mm-hmm.

Talk to me. I'd love for you to share your thoughts on the importance of communicating a couple of things in a sales process, because we believe it to be very important. One, expectations. So expectations of the prospect and what you're trying to accomplish. Expectations or clarity around next steps, clarity around your sales process. What are your thoughts about the importance of that kind of clear communication? Because I think that's where a lot of producers get stuck, is they're too— there's too— they're too vague as to what we do next. Talk about what— how you make sure your prospects are clear on expectations in a sales process.

Yeah, I, I, Andy, I try to rely on the 1-3-1, right? So, uh, one decision we're gonna make, three bullet points that support it, and one objection question that I want to get clearly from the buyer before I leave. The 1-3-1. One decision, three bullet points that support it, one potential objection that I want to get on the table right from the jump. And those are— that's the human part of this thing. There are trade-offs, there are ifs, buts, you know, there is ambiguity in decision-making. No one makes perfectly informed decisions. But if you can have a really clear, credible conversation about tradeoffs, both economic and non-economic, I think that leaves buyers with a level of trust that they're comfortable with. And I will— I feel strongly that that second meeting is a buying frame meeting. It's not another follow-up meeting.

It's a really, really good point right there. If you're clear in your communication on the process and what happens next, you don't get caught in that, well, now we're on our 5th meeting, right? Trying to figure out what we're going to actually do. Are we dancing, dating? Are we going to get married? I think the producers who don't have that clear, this is what happens next, are the ones that are caught constantly having that 3rd, 4th, 5th meeting when reality is it isn't going anywhere, right?

You, you get into the just following up cycle, the doom cycle I call it. Just, yeah, hey, you know, have you thought about, or was I clear about something, or, you know, that follow-up trap where each time you send that, hey, do you have a minute, or hey, I'd love to follow up. I mean, you continue to make yourself more irrelevant with every single type of follow-up. So that would be my system that I try. And if you do that loop consistently, I feel strongly, at least it's been demonstrated to me, that the outcomes are pretty good.

It's actually a really good point. I haven't thought about it. It's possible that the more you meet with a prospect, the more irrelevant you become with every meeting.

There's— so there's relationship building. Yes, there's development time. Once you've identified and you've agreed on a potential way forward. If the second meeting isn't about how we, how we come together and make that thing happen, after that, it's just you're increasing your irrelevance, your skipped over emails, your missed texts, your unread WhatsApp messages. Those will continue to stack up.

Yeah, my unlock was a few, few years back. I spent a day with a peer who was having a lot of success in the industry, and I just wanted to kind of observe what he was doing. And he jumped on a virtual call to prospect. This was before COVID and I just watched the entire discovery meeting from the other side of the desk. And it was impressive because one of the first things he said to the prospect was, listen, you know, we're, we're, we're having an executive briefing meeting today. Here's what we're doing. But here's what happens next. If you like what you have to hear, we're going to move to the next step, gather some data, put some numbers in front of you to see if it makes sense. He was selling a captive at the time, but he said right out of the gate, after I show you numbers, I'm going to ask you to hire me.

Sure.

And at that point, if we move forward, we're only moving forward if you have hired us.

Mm-hmm.

He was so clear about that, and it was within the first 5 minutes of that first discussion, I'm like, no wonder he's selling a lot of business. He's probably getting a lot of nos too, but he's creating that clarity right out of the gate of what's about to happen.

Yeah, I think there's no rules against creating urgency on the behalf of the buyer. There's no rules against, um, under— helping a buyer understand that the platform underneath them is on fire. You know, like, that's, that's part of the role. And if you do that in a in a trustworthy and genuine way without scare tactics, without being, you know, over the top. I think buyers really appreciate that. And also seeking no, getting to know sooner is— I think that keeps you on a good professional plane with future potential buyers. It has been demonstrated to me in my career that you will get it, you will get a no. You will agree to move along amicably, but, but not do business together. And 6 months later, that same buyer will come back and say, that thing we talked about, you know, we went with someone else and they didn't deliver. Can you come back in? And you've created the condition where what you can deliver was clearly, was clear and concise with that buyer. And that's what they're bringing you back for. That is, there is no ambiguity in that. You're going back in to close the deal.

The number one tip I have received that has taken my sales farther than anything else is your number one job in sales is to help them make a clear decision. It is not to get a yes, it is to help them make a clear decision. So even though you get a clear no, there's actually a small victory in there.

Sure, absolutely.

Hard for people to hear, but that's the truth.

Absolutely.

Last question, then we're going to go into a little Get to know Max.

Okay.

With, with the sales process and building credibility, I'm a big believer that you've got to use the sales process to continue building credibility. And I think you need two things to win in sales today: likability and credibility. And I think producers tend to go too far one way or the other. If you go, you focus on just being likable, that's where you get caught in the 3, 4, 5, 6 meeting trap going nowhere. But if all you do is build, focus on credibility and how much you know and want to display your knowledge, that's, that's where you feel like you've kicked butt. But, but people aren't people. It's not going anywhere. How can, in your opinion, Max, how can a producer build credibility throughout a sales process?

So I totally agree, Andy. The know, like, and trust pyramid needs to continue, is something you continually build. Until you're at the top. Credibility for me is built when I, when I know a client's business incredibly well. Now, I'm not on the inside, I'm not inside their four walls, but if they're a public company, there is— and we go back to this point around how do we use AI— the amount of information for public companies and private companies that's available, not only available out there in the ether, but having tools to help disseminate that information, understand its context of the market that they're operating in. What are their constraints as a business? You know, credibility for me is built through knowing a client's or prospective client's business incredibly well, knowing what's happening in their industry so that when I deliver a case study or I deliver a piece of Aon research that I think is resonant to their business, It's not, you know, my marketing leader said, hey, this thing's hot out in the market, send it to all your clients. It's not spray and pray. It's this thing's happening in the market. You're going through this exact same type of challenge as I've read in your earnings report or as I've read in the news. This is how Aon deals with this challenge in the market. And here's a real credible outcome that we delivered for a similar client, usually a peer. If confidential or not. And I think this relates to your business. Can we talk about this or read this case study? Then let's have a conversation. Knowing what they're going through as a decision maker, the level of complexity and volatility they're dealing with on a day-to-day basis is, for me, the quickest way, the most effective way to build credibility, especially with a new a new buyer, a new prospective client, a new logo.

That's great. That was, uh, great advice, Max. Um, if you're listening in, I mean, what you just listened to for the last 30 minutes was a nice little masterclass on communication and using your ability to communicate to build the credibility you need to win the business. And I think that's important for people to hear. It's— we operate in an industry, Max, where we know more about what we do than than every prospect we're ever going to sell to. And how you communicate with them, from communicating your knowledge to communicating the process to communicating the, the expectations— your ability to communicate will take you farther in sales than anything else. And it's, it's a skill set that can't be overlooked because I think we spend so much time in this industry just talking about product knowledge and all that, but if you can't communicate it, people aren't going to buy.

No doubt. No doubt.

So I'm glad we talked about that today. So, well, man, we're going to get to know Max a little bit here before we wrap, if you're cool with it. I don't prepare for these questions.

No, I have no— I can confirm I have not prepared for these questions, but I am a man of habits and discipline and rituals.

So here's what I'd like to know, my friend. I'm a big morning routine guy.

Oh, okay.

Right. It's what you do off the field dictates what you do on it. So I use my mornings to get me ready to play the game. What is— now you said you're a father of 3 boys?

I have 4 children, 3 boys and a girl. Yes.

What does your typical morning routine look like?

So my mornings start around 5:30 or 6. I'm like, you know, just a shade off the 5 AM Club. I, I, I wake up, I start to move. If it's a sunny day, I get in some daylight. I truly believe in in quiet reflection, being intentional about your day, thinking about what are the, what are the 2 or 3 things that I really want to accomplish today. It usually involves some type of physical movement. I don't always have time to get a full workout in, but a little, a little workout in the garage. We call it the Sheffield Fitness Center. We renovated the 2-car garage in the back during COVID We call it the Sheffield Fitness Center. So if I can get in there for even 30 minutes is great. And then I try to get down into the city before the crowds, right? So I like to be on an early train into the city or on the road early. I like to get up and get out. I have the incredible benefit of having a wife who's endlessly patient and loving. She's much better at the morning routine with the kids. Than I am, admittedly. I can at any time be the biggest baby in the house. So, I usually, I'm a get up and get out type of guy.

Yeah, I like that. I like hearing that. You gave a really good morning tip that's underappreciated, morning sun.

Yeah, get out.

I try to do that myself. You know, days we get the sun first thing, get out. I grab my cup of coffee and I just go outside and let the sun on your face. Even when the sun's not high enough where it can hurt your eyes, you can actually look at it a little bit.

Yeah.

That's actually really, it has so many health benefits like starting your circadian rhythm and things like that.

Yeah, totally agree. Get your feet in the grass, get your face in the sun, be intentional about your morning. I think really that's the message, Andy, is if you wake up and immediately jump into your email, jump into your to-do, I mean, it's great to set— the real tip I would give is I do my to-do list the night before. It's usually how I finish my day. So that I'm not waking up in the morning with scrambled eggs, right? I've got some time and then I've already gotten my to-do list on paper.

Plan the day the night before.

Sure.

All right, so you own the Sheffield Gym. Yeah. I believe, is that named after the street you're on?

The street, yeah, we're on Sheffield Drive, yep.

Okay, you get 60 minutes to work out, what's your go-to workout?

Oh, I'm a big calisthenics guy. I've got the Plyoblocks. So, plyometrics, calisthenics, bodyweight exercise. I've ripped my shoulders and back enough times to know that I'm not a weights guy. I just have given up on the weights. So, I am a high rate of aerobic output, trying to get my heart rate up as high as possible. To start, and then after that it's all bodyweight resistance bands and plyometrics from there on out. That's my 60 minutes.

Well, Max, it's been a joy, my friend.

I can't thank you enough. This has been great.

Yeah.

And congrats to you, Andy. The platform is impressive. The reach. You know, what I would say is I mean that when I said it earlier in our conversation, I want professionals to do well. I think benefits accrue to clients. When we compete. And I, I'd love to talk to anyone in, in who's listening who's got questions. Um, I'm, I'm open to, to dialogue. So I really appreciate the opportunity.

Well, no, I appreciate that, man. That's why this company exists. I mean, I saw an opportunity to make a bigger impact on the industry at a, at large, do with my skill set, with my gifts. And so I appreciate you saying that. Um, if somebody wanted to reach out, Max, inspired by the conversation, wanted to get to know more about you, what is the easiest way to get in touch with you?

Yeah, send me a direct message in LinkedIn. Send me— my stuff is very public, right? My email is in there, my phone number. Like I said earlier, I think there's this generational shift around communication. I want to hear from people. So, email, LinkedIn, text, call, however people prefer, WhatsApp. I mean, any of it. We can post it in the show notes. I'm happy to, I'm happy to communicate.

Max Conboy, everyone. Max, great conversation, man.

Thank you, Andy. I appreciate you. Keep doing your thing.

That's all we got for this episode of the Accelerate Your Insurance Sales podcast. One of the most valuable things you can do to help us and other new potential listeners find our show is for you to rate the show and leave a review. So as a special bonus for you, if you leave us a review, take a screenshot of your review and send it to me as a DM to my LinkedIn profile, I will send you a free copy of our LinkedIn Diamond Playbook, our proven 4-step strategy to grow your business on LinkedIn. So go right now, leave us a review, screenshot it, and send me a DM on LinkedIn. Also, please share this podcast with anyone you think would enjoy it. That's it for now.