The Future of Insurance: Collaboration Over Competition with Jessica Brooks-Woods

Because I don't think we have a lot of time. We're in a state of urgency. Some may call it an emergency. I would like to give us a little bit grace time between urgency and emergency. But we are in a state of urgency because the challenges are so great.

Hey.

Hey.

Welcome back to the Accelerate your insurance sales podcast. Andy Neary here. I am excited for this episode. This one has been long, a long time coming. I know we tried aligning schedules. It wasn't easy, but here we are. It is recording. We're recording this on September 24th. Jessica Brooks Woods, CEO of NABIP, welcome to the accelerate your insurance sales podcast.

Thank you, Andy. I always say right on time. It may have taken a while, but we are right on time.

You've been a little busy since you've taken over the role, right?

Just a bit. I've definitely been in quite a few states and cities I've never even heard of in my life at times. So it's been a phenomenal, phenomenal two years.

This is a, this will be an exciting episode because one, you'll get a chance to talk about NAVIP and the initiatives you guys are working on there. I think there's a lot of very good transitions and things going on inside NAVIP right now. And I'm also excited just to talk about your journey, you know, offline. I told you that I first came upon your name, man, I bet you it's seven, eight years ago, maybe you were still very much deep into running the Pittsburgh Business Group on health. And I had heard your name through Lee Lewis, and I think he had been involved a little bit with the Pittsburgh Business Group on health as well. Let's start there. What led you to. And we'll talk about the. Some of the work you did there. What led you getting involved with an organization like the Pittsburgh Business Group on health?

So at the time I was working at prior right before taking on that role, I was at Highmark, Blue Cross Blue Shield, and I was in a, in a very dynamic area within human resources, working largely on, at that time, change management. There was a lot going on in the organization with acquisitions in the industry. So they were becoming an integrated financing delivery system, purchasing hospitals. We already had one financing integrated delivery system in Pittsburgh. So the market was shifting locally, the market was shifting nationally. We were also on the heels of the ACA coming on board, lots of mergers and acquisitions that I was just privileged to be able to be pulled in on projects and out of a diversity and inclusion office, which is rare. So I was handpicked to be and help really spearhead the evolution of where diversity, equity, inclusion was going for corporations and health care. And then as all the markets started shifting, I was positioned in the M and A area to help with some of these acquisitions or proposed acquisitions, and it was exciting. I had also recently graduated with my master's from Carnegie Mellon University and wanted to not have that be in vain. I really wanted to have an impact. And someone came to me right before graduation and said, would you be willing to lead a nonprofit? And I hadn't really thought about it in that way and how I would leverage my degree. And I said I would. And the opportunity came to me and it was everything. It was almost perfectly designed at my HR skill set. Change management, being, staying in health care, being in the business of health care and having a direct impact and seeing that impact was really important to me. I no longer want to be in the middle of an organization and not really sure how things would translate from the work that I put in and the value that I was bringing and the big projects that we were working on. It was really, really just a really great opportunity. What was interesting, though, it was a much smaller organization. I was growing my family. They weren't offering health care anymore to the leadership as they were prior to. And I was eight months pregnant when I started. It was a risk in some ways, personally, going in at that point in time with a toddler and no healthcare and a newborn on the way. So talk about irony, right? Going to lead a transformation health care organization and not really sure where you fit into the space. So it was just a very interesting time personally and professionally, a risk worth taking, and it's been quite a ride. I'm happy to dive in deeper with you about it.

Oh, yeah, we'll actually do that. You know, one of the things I was really impressed with, I think if you look at the landscape as a whole, with all the business groups on health that exist out there, I think a lot of them are struggling today. I think some, you know, had some steam going and momentum going, but it's since fizzled off. Some are doing well. But the one thing that always stood out to me was the work you did at the Pittsburgh Business Group on health. And I think the results you are able to create. If I've got numbers right, you delivered your focus on things like pharmacy costs. I was doing a little research, said after the Pittsburgh Business Group on health, you delivered more than 25 million in annual savings through prescription drug management, 6 million in savings in employee out of pocket cost.

Yes.

What do you think was behind the success you had with that specific chapter there in Pittsburgh that made it so successful?

Well, we were an employer led organization and when I came in there were some pretty clear guidelines or clear lines delineation that they made as a leadership, as an employer coalition that said we will maintain employer, our employer voice will be 70% of our attendance engagement if we get close to 30% other that was inclusive of health plans, pharma, PBMs, brokers, 30% other. 70% of our voice has to be at the table at all times. And there were pretty, they were, we were pretty strict and maintained this, this guideline to lead with the purchasers. And in that it allowed for us to be able to cultivate a culture of wanting to move the needle together. Not just as individualistic as a lot of employers do and act. And still we had that challenge as well. You know, I want my benefits to be a differentiator. We're competing sometimes for the same talent in a marketplace. I want to stick out. But when it came to the big items, the big trends, we were able to coalesce in a way that was pretty remarkable. And that allowed us to act in a way with a collective ethos, collective principles which included increasing quality, taking out waste of the system, value based insurance design. And that allowed us to bring in innovators with us and introduce them as a coalition tends to do. When I think about the cult role of a coalition in the marketplace and I usually call them pure players, right this, your skin in the game is value. Your skin in the game is moving the needle, extracting waste, getting more, better cost, affordability, more access for the folks that your employers are responsible for helping them curb their costs. So this pure play mentality or approach to things also means that you have to introduce maybe innovative ideas, push the limits a bit more, have conversations that you wouldn't normally have in rooms on a regular basis. And we did that, we also can't do much. And I learned that every coalition in the country has brokers and agents on their SWOT analysis as a threat. I will be surprised if they all, let's just say 90% just to be a little bit more fair. And so I get asked the question all the time of this transition. But what I learned in that was the role wasn't about you can't writing the brook route or trying to move the needle without them. That only gets you so far because the reliability on the agent is so significant. That's who's with them day to day. We might have the coalition leaders, quarterly meetings, conferences, we might have a big pilot project that we're working on collectively. But the work really can't move forward without the buy in and support of your advisor that you're working with every day. And so we worked hard with byob. Bring your own broker events and engagements to cultivate a healthier relationship so that we could move the needle together. And I think some of those things helped us be able to introduce new things and find a way to actually negotiate and contract in a smart way that allowed us to have those kinds of results.

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Absolutely. It's very short lived. It may work for a short period of time, but once that work comes in, the complexity and the compliance requirements, you know, it it at the end of the day that's who you need to work with. And the message was brokers, you need to work with us too. We need to move the needle. Your clients want more. They wouldn't be disengaged. They wouldn't have said yes. We wouldn't be this far if they didn't want to move this needle if they weren't willing to take on some level of risk, which is usually bringing on or trying a new solution that isn't the mainstream one or well, as well known in a marketplace sometimes. And once you understand that that's what they want, then let's figure out how to work together to get it done. And those who were successful in the market were willing to do that.

Yeah. I think the key word there is collaboration, right?

Absolutely.

There's a lot of advisors out there who want to be innovative, but not every one of them wants to collaborate with peers. And we operate in an industry that I think tends to think more in a lack mindset versus abundance, which is, guys, there's enough to go around. And if we're going to make this a better industry, we've got to collaborate with each other, not just compete. And you see that all the time. Where advisors want to join a group like the Pittsburgh Business Group on Health, more for an exclusivity thing versus I want to collaborate. Even if it means possibly collaborating with a competitor.

Absolutely. Yeah. That's the very. It's a very real thing. Still, even here at NABIP is, you know, and I often, when I speak, I say your competitor, are these bad costs? You know, the costs, the poor quality, the regulations that are making it very difficult for us to navigate. Those are your competitors.

Yeah.

In this room, that's not the hat you wear well.

And you, you mentioned offline, you made a comment that I loved, which is good people tend to know other good people. Right. And I brought up the name Lee Lewis, who I think got pretty involved with the Pittsburgh Group on Health. I don't know how you guys first connected, but you even, you even had him emcee some of your events.

Oh, yeah, yeah. I remember we were when we were introduced from a colleague of his when he was at Gallagher and he was in the Innovation Lab, I think, in Texas. And I was looking for. I always look for provocative folks. I love people who push.

Good way to describe Lee provocative.

So I said, I need someone provocative who's going to shake some things up, say some things we want, we need said and bring some energy. And he was highly recommended. And the moment I connected with him, I knew he was the one. So it was actually preparing for one of my symposiums. And I said, hey, I would like you to emcee this thing. And it's a race racing theme. He came in full gear. Absolutely. Race car ran down the aisle, ran on the stage. It was awesome. It was awesome. Since then, of course, we had some more serious business to tend to and, and work on as both of our careers have evolved in the work PDGH and him then going to HTA and so we've worked and worked really closely on some big things and always innovative. And as he's, you know, scoured the land for what can work, how can we get purchasers to act in a way that's prudent, that shows the level of stewardship, but also allows them, takes them along the way, not, not get too far ahead of them. And so I always lean on him on being able to be right on that edge of. It's edgy, but it's, but it gives a level of security that we can actually, you know, rally the troops around and enjoy. I'm glad we have that mutual connection.

Yeah, I mean he. To watch his ascension too, like you said, up to the. The where he is today with the Health Transformation alliance has been pretty impressive and, and very well deserved. Bring it back. Now here's, here's the transition I'm really curious about because you, you had a lot of good things going there. I'm curious to know if you're willing to share, how did the NABIP opportunity present itself and then what led you to say this is a challenge I want to take because I, I think it's safe to say, Jessica, I don't think I'm speaking on a line to say that for a little while nabif, which was nahu, right. Got a little stagnant. And what led you to look at that opportunity to say this is something I want to take head on?

So that's a really great question. It has layers to it. Andy. What's interesting is for several years I would have my team reach out to NEHU for information and insight from the broker lens. Now, to be honest with you, I thought their name meant, was associated with what they did. So healthcare underwriters, which is hence why I'm sure the board and everyone chose to finally change the name. I thought when we were reaching out that we would. We're getting insights from underwriters like where, where's industry going? Where do you see risk? So I thought it was more data, research oriented organization. And then at some point I came to realize after some outreaches that wasn't exactly what NAHU was. But I did realize they represented the agents and like I said, we really. It's always this dance with the agent advisor community. They're, you know, very protective of their Clients for Liso and we were trying to work with them in a unique way. And so right. My last symposium before I left pbgh, which I had no idea NABIP was in my horizon at that time. I actually had Janet Trautwlein in Pittsburgh at my symposium on a panel. So we have finally had her come in and speak and over the years had some level of engagement as we were reaching out to Nehu. And so it's funny looking back that there was always this level of proximity that was unconscious or just a natural part of the healthcare ecosystem. When I left pbgh, I honestly left after my husband ran for mayor and my children, our whole family got involved and we were knocking doors in the city of Pittsburgh and speaking to neighbors that had been neighbors for quite some time, but hearing stories that we never heard before. And a lot of those stories were about the opioid epidemic and fentanyl and neighbors losing not just one child, but two child, two children. Businesses who still weren't recovering from COVID and when you spoke to the business owners, health had something to do. There was a health connection. Almost every single engagement that we had in the community. And after months of campaigning and being in the community and at festivals and kissing babies, as they say, although it was pills of coke, not happening during the pandemic. So we were pretty close in proximity, shaking hands and it was really hard to see that everything that we advocated for, we celebrated new laws that penalized dentists and doctors for over prescribing. We celebrated like these new, you know, some advocacy wins that we had around these issues. The drug program that we had that were saving not just employers money, but families money and individuals money wasn't translating as I. It was like that eye opening moment where people were still dying and we're thinking we're making it wasn't translating to the community. And so it made me really go internal and say what's next and how? And that's when the journey, I think of figuring that out and being open to what next came. And so when I chose to leave PVGH with about 6 months notice or so it was without knowing what was next. I had, I did not have another role. I wasn't intending on looking for another role. I just wanted to make sure it was the right next thing. So Marlon and I were already booked to speak at Benefits Pro and he does this panel at Benefits Pro almost every year. They change the title every year. Paul Wilson, but it's about the same topic. And he reached out to a colleague who he wanted to be on the panel. And she said, is Jessica going for the NAHU CEO role? And he said, no, who even knew it was available? And she said, well, I think it's for her. And so he showed me the role and it just resonated with me. It wasn't really even a question. I just knew it was the right thing that was to come and that's what had me go through the process and here I am. That's awesome is my short answer.

Yeah.

Purpose and alignment for where I'm. I believe I'm to be called to next, but there were things that happened in life that allowed me to be open to receiving that direction well.

And I think that you accepting that role also coincided. You guys live in Atlanta now, right? So there was also a move from Pittsburgh down to Atlanta.

Yeah.

So I'm curious, you know, I'll probably ask you some questions around nabip, assuming a listener even may not even know what NAVEB is or who NAVE up is, just so we can bring some, some clarity and shed some light on the organization. But my first question to you would be, you know, thinking about what you've done, what you've did, what you did at pbegh, where do you see the opportunity inside NABIP to try to create a similar type of result? Because a lot of people who, who are familiar with NAHU now, NABIP think of it more like legislative compliance related, you know, supporting the advisor to make sure they have a career. Right. They have a sustainable career. But what you did at PBH was very much employer result driven. Do you see a big opportunity at NABIP to start to help that organization create that kind of impact on the health insurance industry just like you did at pbgh?

Absolutely. There is no doubt that that's why one of the reasons why I'm here, to bring that skill set and that leadership to this organization where it's required. And I came in the first thing when the board asked me my vision and what I was looking to do. And as I was still learning, but one of the first board meetings, I said we have to go from being relevant to essential. And I've been seeing trends over the years and like I said, there's a stickiness there and, and there's a power there that exists with the broker advisor. But the question is, is, are you, is that power there? Is that stickiness there because you're needed or because you're trusted? And those are two different things.

Oh yeah.

And I can tell you from being on the fly on the wall, being inside these rooms for over a decade with their clients, that it's more being needed than being trusted. Oftentimes we would be told, well, mine can come, but not yours. So as an, so as a profession, you know, I may trust Andy, but I don't trust the profession. I don't trust the role of the advisor as a whole in the ecosystem. And data shows us that when the national alliance, for example, which I've served on the board for quite some time, and they do a survey every year, there's a part of that survey that asks questions and looks at the role of the advisor, the TPA, the PBM, all the noise that's going on around PBMs, and the broker is still on that list as the least trusted of those.

That's interesting.

So in order to become essential, that core component has to be there. And as an industry we know like assurance isn't trusted doctors, the trust in doctors is decreasing. Nurses are probably the most highly trusted role within our healthcare ecosystem today. And they have very little voices in coalition spaces and in a bit right now, but they're one of the most trusted folks in our healthcare ecosystem. Not us, not our Insurance partners, not PBMs, not farm.

Yeah, it's interesting you bring that up. I just want to share one of my. One of our clients shares a story. It's one of the reasons he's in health insurance today. He, he says this statement saved his daughter's life. His daughter was born with a heart, congenital heart issue. And when they brought her in at a very early age to have surgery, it was a nurse that said, I would not have the surgery at this hospital, I would go somewhere else. And they did. And who knows what the result would have been had they gone into hot. But he said, without her advice, without that nurse's advice, who knows what would have happened? So to your point, you want to know what's going on in the healthcare system? Ask a nurse.

Ask a nurse. Absolutely. To get back to your question, that is the call right now is one, how do we get to the speed of trust? Because I don't think we have a lot of time. We're in a state of urgency. Some may call it an emergency. I would like to give us a little bit grace time between urgency and emergency. But we are in the state of urgency because the challenges are so great. And where I saw big wins were when advisors came together. We had a big issue in the western Pennsylvania region between the largest health plan and the largest health system around cancer and the health plan unilaterally decide, we're not paying these increased fees because you purchased this hospital and you can now charge them their site of care hasn't changed. The value, the quality of life hasn't changed, the doctor hasn't changed. Nothing's changed other than you purchased this hospital system. We're not going to pay. What they didn't do though, is consult the purchaser, the employer or the broker to say, hey, we're going to make this call self insured employers and we want you with us. And this is a little bit of a risk because our contract says we have to pay this, but this isn't right for your people. If they did that, employers and agents would have came together and said, let's see what we need to do to get this done. They did it unilaterally. As a result, the state decided to charge back over almost nearly $200 million back to purchasers, some of which were of course, a big portion of that were employers with high deductible health plans that also included the patients, some of them who were no longer here because it was cancer we were talking about. Brokers came together, took off those competitor hats, we rallied in a room around data, did an independent analysis, were able to validate what we really actually owed, put a plan in place, work with stop loss vendors. I mean, it was the most remarkable experience in my tenure there at PBGH where we came together. We were actually able to affect some level of how you're going to work with us and demand that in a way that only brokers along with their clients can make happen. So I have this little one example that I'm holding on to that I can see that going on a macro level nationwide here in our country. The beautiful thing about NABIP is that unlike the coalition world where I came from, we only focus on employers. 56, 55% of the lives covered, the remaining of those lives are covered within these government programs. Medicare, Medicare Advantage, Medicaid. Correct. And aca. We have such a phenomenal opportunity at NABIP to take away those barriers. Because whether you have an ACA health plan and that you got it through the exchange or you got it through an employer, we're going to the same delivery systems. Right? We all want to have dignity and respect and good outcomes. We need relationships there that I believe Nabib is positioned to help us to get done. When the health plans are pulling out of the market, we don't. Right now, we're reacting to it we have an opportunity to be very, very proactive in understanding where the markets are shifting and preparing our people, our communities, the lives that we cover, to be able to navigate that terrain, partner uniquely with primary care and direct primary care. Right. HSAs, the big beautiful bill just happened. HSAs are now compatible with DPC, which was an issue and is one example. Right. So how are we going to be creative around that? There's so much opportunity, Andy, that as you can tell, I'm very energized.

Well, I love it because I was chuckling as you were talking about what you did at pbgh because, because if, if an advisor, a health insurance advisor is listening, they're probably pretty aware of the healthcare system and the hospital system that you reference. And I think I share with you offline. I was just in Pittsburgh last month and I stayed downtown and I, I did laugh a little because the, the two systems we just referenced have high rises that literally stare at each other.

Absolutely.

And it's just when I, when I was there and I looked up, I'm like, yeah, you guys are literally looking at each other through the high rises. And you're right. I think what you said though, that's really to hear is shifting NAVIP a little bit from what can you do for me, the advisor, to what are we doing to just create better outcomes for the system as a whole.

Absolutely.

And I think that's a big shift. So here's an example. I got a two part question for you. If my research is correct, you built an AI driven tool, RISE Health and equity.

Yes.

And that second part of that. So talk a little bit about RISE Health Equity and then how is NABIP looking at and leveraging AI as part of the solution as we move forward?

Yes. I'm so happy to talk about RISE Health equity. RISE really launched as a result of being visible and being willing to speak up on issues. And initially in the western PA market, I was in the business times all the time.

I was in the newspapers for being called not good for the region by one of the largest health systems, which I realized that means I made it by the way, but it was very uncomfortable.

Yes. When you get called out by the healthcare system, you're probably doing something right.

Yes, absolutely. But as a result of being willing to dare to be courageous in a system where there's a lot of ties and conflicts of interest made me visible to the common person and I would be in meetings like this and, or you know, in Pittsburgh and I would at some point look at My social media messenger on Facebook and I would have a message from someone I didn't know or was a couple people removed from my close friends on. On Facebook. And they were common. Although the issues were different. They were common. They were all women. They were all black women. They were in a hospital system in the region. Now, there were different. One was a pain issue, one was a surgery, One was proactive, was an actual executive that was scared that she would lose her baby. She had had several miscarriages. Finally, her and her husband were able to have a successful pregnancy. But data came out in Pittsburgh saying if you were a woman, obviously a black woman in Pittsburgh, you were more likely to die from having your children. Comparable states across the country. So they were afraid. And each time it was, can you help me survive? I don't know. I feel like that I'm being. I'm being ignored. My sister's being ignored. My daughter's being ignored. She's in pain. They're not listening. They're calling her a drug addict. They think she just wants drugs. One thing after the next. And I would call the CEO of the hospital. Those are. Where were my relationships. And I would say, hey, or the health or the health plan that owned the hospital. And I would say, hey, you know, this is happening on your watch. And at this point, I'm getting quite a bit of these that I'm realizing there's an issue here. Every single time they responded so quickly that someone, a nurse, charge nurse or someone was on that floor with that patient talking to their team almost immediately. And then the interim, I would give the patient or the family member language to use to get the attention, to level the playing field. And so rise health equity really burst out of me, meaning to scale me, scale the response, the reaction from leadership at hospitals and realizing that there was a disconnect between what the leadership thought was happening or should happen or thought was acceptable, what was actually happening in that patient experience. And the only thing that could save that in real time was literacy, the ability to speak language in a way that made the person stop in their tracks and say, maybe they know what they're talking about. Maybe I should see them. And it helped. So at that point, it started. I would get calls In Virginia and D.C. i didn't have the same relationships, but I would say, okay, well, this is what I have. I give them language. And then they would tell me, thank you so much. It helped. I would say, get this contact person, the CEO's information, email. I'm going to tell you what to say, and they would get a response. And in Rice, health equity was really birthed out of trying to put a tool in anyone's hands that needed it at their most vulnerable moments in our health care system. And so that's Rise health equity. It was scaling me the language, the response, and giving people tool real time, which is the power of communication. We're all at different levels, we're all at different literacy levels. When you're scared, when you're vulnerable, you don't know what to say, you don't know how to be heard when you're already being treated like you're there for the wrong reasons or you're making things up. And so it's a powerful tool and it's free. It's. I haven't monetized it. I just wanted people to be helped. And I. And it was originally created for black women in Pittsburgh. That was the inspiration, so to speak. Not necessarily created for them, but that was the inspiration based on data that was telling us that was the most vulnerable population. But it's truly for every American who needs help, who wants to be seen and feel heard and have an ability to navigate things real time. And it's not a new MRI machine that's going to cost us a lot of money, isn't a new biosimilar or GLP1, whatever it may be, that makes has made that difference at that time. Right. Like maybe proactively, but in real time, we have to level the playing field, and that's what Rise is here to do.

I love hearing that. That's awesome. Because there's a lot of good health insurance advisors out there that are trying to do the right thing. And at the end of the day, no matter what strategy you want to implement, it will not work unless the consumer knows how to use it and has the literacy to use it.

Absolutely.

So I love that you've built that. It sounds like you were probably even a little bit on the front end of AI with that, you know, I think so. AI is here, of course, right. Right in front of us now. But you. You even had that thought process, you know, years ago, you know, a few years ago, before this has really became mainstream.

Absolutely. So with nabip, that was one of the. My friends also that I've met over the years. His name is Chris Dancy. I had brought him in to help. He helped me with the tech side of Rise. And when I took on the role here at NABIP, honestly, I walked into the 1980s, you know, like, that's Everything analog paper, file cabinets, you know, our infrastructure is still, we're still working on updating it. Things haven't been updated since 2016, maybe even previous to that. So having this kind of own infrastructure that we have to advance at the same time, AI is here. We began. That was one of the first decisions I made, was to bring on a technologist, AI consultant into our office and begin the conversations. And it started with like, okay, what can we do internally? What tools can we use? How can we use AI? We built some apps, like a marketing app for our members, a bio builder app, your voice matters, where any member can, can send us a message and they'll get an adequate response. A native app where you can, you know, look and see what's neighbor, make it easier. Because our website isn't the most easy, user friendly, you know, those kind of small things just to get us familiar and then begin the conversation around the role of AI. And one of the first conversations I had with my team is our members are not going to like this. They don't want AI. They believe it's going to take their role. And when I dug deeper, I'm like, well, what role would it take? What are we, what do we believe our folks are afraid of? And it was really comparing, contrasting plans. That's the thing that kind of came up continuously. And I thought, well, that's exactly what it should be interrupting, right? We, that's where it should be working for us. Spreadsheets, these spreadsheets, comparing and contrasting the plans in the market when we have an opportunity and a responsibility to expand our Rolodex, so to speak, where we're cultivating real meaningful relationships in our healthcare's local communities, with the providers, with the hospital systems, face to face, meeting people where they are. If you're in Medicare, being at panera bread at 6am where the seniors are, right. Like we need to be more present and more connected than ever before. We need to learn how to not just do RPs differently, but to contract in a sophisticated way that we don't have these loopholes that actually extract value from what we're trying to create and let AI work for us. So we're still at the beginning stages of it, but I can tell you we've been following where the conversations in D.C. are around healthcare and AI. We're still exploring tools that we can bring on board. We're open to partnerships. We've had these topics at our conferences, of course, so AI has a future. We just want to ensure that we're prepared to let it enhance and work for us and not take us over, which I think can only happen if you're not willing to evolve.

Well, that's it. You can either be afraid of it or leverage it. Right. And one of the best ways I heard AI described is it's to automate the mundane so you can focus on the meaningful. And I think that's exactly what the top agencies are going to do. You know, as we kind of bring the conversation to a close here, I would love for your opinion on this, Jessica. I think this is a big one. One of the things I one of the challenges I see in our industry is we're really proud of the past and it's why a lot of agencies have not evolved. As you look ahead from your perspective, what are some of the advocacy issues agency executives need to be focused on as we look ahead over the next five to 10 years?

Wow, that's a really. Thank you for that question. It's a big one and I'm not sure I have the full scope. But I can tell you agency executives can't afford to sit back right now. There are major issues that demand our attention. PBM reform being one of them. The FTC's focus on transparent transparency is huge. The DOL's focus on transparency is huge. The employer fiduciary responsibilities. Agencies must help clients make prudent decisions and choices. And not just seeing as a compliance issue, but this with this word stewardship. You'll continue to hear me that the integrity, the line between ethics and integrity. We have to go down this pathway of owning and being the standard of integrity in our healthcare ecosystem. And when I say agency executives, I'm saying pull yourself out of the ecosystem and kind of separate yourself from the pack a bit. Look at this aerial view. We're uniquely positioned that we have the sophisticated expertise and knowledge in this very complex system. How does RX work? What is the role of a pbm? What's the role of pharma? How does access really work in a network? Work in a community? What does contracting look like with the hospital system? Who's out of network? Are they anesthesiologists? Are you getting surprise bills? All the things we can go on and on about Agency advisors are the conduit to understanding that to be able to go and sit at a kitchen table if they need to, or a manufacturing facility and have a conversation with a lay person who doesn't touch healthcare outside of their own and then be able to go to an executive's office of the one of the largest health care systems in the country and have a sophisticated conversation. That's a unique posture that we have, that we have to pay attention to. So I think this transparency era that we're in, that I hope we don't just stay in because transparency really is just the chip off the iceberg. That's not the end goal, it's what it's supposed to do for you, that we lead in that space, that we contract in a sophisticated way. As you know, I touch from Medicare to aca, I think paying attention as an agency owner, if you're just in the employer space to what's happening in Medicare, the language of steering and tearing isn't new. When I was fighting a lot of the issues with the consolidation in the Western PA market, steering and tearing was that was in all the paperwork, if you paid attention. And Medicare agents are being have been talked about as steering and commission cuts are happening from health plans. So these are threatening access points for trusted brokers, but more importantly for consumers. So having a consumer focused lens around what does these decisions in the market really mean and who is leading it and what role should we be playing in influencing that. So there's somewhat natives at the table on all of these issues, it seems never ending. Andy?

Well, I think what you said though is this transparency movement is going to force integrity and overall that's a good thing. But there's consequences for everything. If you're not running an agency out of full integrity right now, you're going to be exposed and unfortunately that's part of the equation when you are trying to force this transparency and to your point, agency executives, this is not the time to put your head in the sand. There's so much going on right now and there's so many things that it can be done to help. I tell our, I tell when I deliver keynote talks, I, I, I tell every insurance advisor that is in the room, especially if they're in the health insurance industry. Do you understand how important your job is? You have one of the most important jobs in America because it can keep businesses doors open, it can help people from filing bankruptcy and it can be your advice can be the difference between them getting the care they need or waiting until it's too late.

Absolutely.

And you have to, you have to understand how important that is. My last question for you and I think maybe the most important one I've asked all day, but if we have a lot of health insurance advisors who listen to this, this show, some may have been NAHU members in the past, dropped out or still considering whether or not this is a good organization for them. Who is NABIP for? And for those listening, what is the easiest way for them to reach out to learn how to become a member?

Absolutely. Well, neighbor, NABIP is for you. If you're listening to this, Native is for you. Our name says it all. We are the national association of Benefits and Insurance Professionals. If you are touching this space through an insurance lens, we're your place at the end of the day. I see our role as making sure health care works for people, not systems. Whether it's through advocacy, education, through innovation. Everything we do, everything at NABIP is about ensuring affordability, transparency, access. That these aren't just talking points, that they're realities for Americans. We are advocating for the ability for you to be able to be, to thrive as a profession in this space. There's a lot at stake right now and we can't afford to be divided. We need to be a force to be reckoned with. We need the volume, we need the numbers for sure. But we more so need quality. We need folks that are willing to step up on the hill with us from the, from a lobbying perspective and advocacy perspective, sharing the stories and bringing the real life stories that sometimes is between life and death that you help facilitate with with real lives with people in our communities. We also need the marketplace shifts to happen or drive what we believe should be next in transparency. From RX accountability to hospital contracts to working with primary care and ensuring that we have nurses who are viable to stay a trusted source in our marketplace. And from an educational perspective, a lot of folks offer, and many of you all offer education. We compete oftentimes with our own members from a professional development perspective. And that's okay. I can tell you that our responsibility is to make sure you can operate at the top of your license. We are looking at where we're going ahead. We have a new precision medicine task force as an example of that where we're taking integrity and fiduciary responsibility to the next level and our role in that. That's what Native is focused on. And so helping you be able to operate at the top of your license, that's our responsibility. We're your trade association, we're your federation. As lawyers have the bar association and hospitals have the hospital association, we are that for you and we're looking forward to working with you. We need you here so the way you can connect with us. We are in your local communities. Almost every state has a Native chapter, national has a native chapter, please visit our website at www.navip.org. contact me directly jbwip.org and I'm happy to help make sure that you're connected with the right people to get you started.

Well, Jessica, it's been an honor. This was a great conversation, one to get to learn more about you, your journey, but what you're doing to represent NABIP today. I'm sure there's plenty of folks listening in right now that are going to be interested in learning more about how they can join. So I know you're very busy, so thank you for your time. It's been, it's been an honor to have you on the show.

Thank you so much, Andy. I appreciate you.

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