The Predictive Care Playbook for Brokers | with Ryan Chapman

We all know how successful like reference based pricing and direct contracting. Some of these things on a look back can save you a lot of money on a look forward. That's a completely different strategy.

Hey.

Hey.

Welcome back to the Broker's Voice. Andy Neary here, CEO and founder of Complete Game Consulting. I am actually really excited for today's conversation. I've got Ryan Chapman, VP of sales at Health Care Strategies joining me. Yes. We are going to talk about what Health Care Strategies is up to today. But I think you're going to really like the way we start this, this, this episode. To Ryan, welcome aboard, man.

Hey, thanks. Very excited to be here.

We are going to talk about health care and all things health insurance. But before we get there, you and I were talking offline. If you're watching this, if you look behind Ryan, you're going to see, you can see a football in the middle and you can see two rugby. Do they call them footballs?

A rugby football? Yeah, they call it rugby. Yeah. Most of the world calls it rugby football and they call our version of football gridiron football. Great.

Okay. Okay. Well, you see that behind your ball you played, you had an opportunity to play rugby for Team USA And I want you to share this story because you actually went to CSU in Fort Collins. Colorado State, where we lived for nine years. How to walk on to play football.

Yeah.

But it actually led to a rugby opportunity. Talk about that. I thought it was a fascinating story.

Yeah, well, it's sort of. Yeah. So Colorado State is where my football, my lifelong passion for football sort of ran aground because I trained. I was training, you know, twice a day for a year and a half or two years to try and walk on there. I was pretty undersized coming out of high school, got there, trained my butt off for a couple of years, did not make the team when I walked on. And it was just like a right place, right time story where like the very next day, while I'm at the, at the student rec center, really sort of bitter about the end of my football career, a guy comes up to me and goes, hey, have you ever thought about rugby? And they said, no, but your timing is perfect. So I played rugby at Colorado State for a couple of years. I was paying my own way through school. So I got invited to be an all American twice, which is like an easy. That's the easiest path in the United States to the US Rugby team. And I didn't go because I was, I was, I had two jobs every summer to pay. I could pay one semester worth of tuition and then I'd have to get a second job over the summers and get one more semester worth of tuition. So I was, I was in no position to go touring around with the college All Americans. So I did not get into the player pool at that point. A few years go by, I ended up making an arena football team, playing some arena football after I graduated where I got huge. I got really big, was playing defensive end, came back to rugby after that came to an end, after football ended for me again and sort of like worked my way into the player pool for the US and in the very last warm up game for the World cup in 2011, they. I was working in Salt Lake City for my old company and they flew me from Salt Lake City to Denver to meet up with the team and they put me on a flight in Denver to Tokyo, Japan. And I was like, I'm not even going to make the feel. And one of the trainers sort of like clued me in. He goes, dude, they don't bring random Joe lunch pail to the last warm up game before the World cup unless they want to see what you can do. So like, you better get your mind right to actually playing tomorrow night in Tokyo, Japan. So sure enough, I start the game on the bench. They sub me in like 10 minutes into the second half. I had 13 tackles in 30 minutes of gameplay. So I tackled everybody on the field and it's like, make the first one out of. And I was like, I chased this guy down to the corner and I was like, oh, I, I can play at this level. Like I can, I can make these, I can make these plays. And so all of a sudden I had this great game. They pull me out of breakfast the next morning. So it's a capping ceremony. They like have this big capping ceremony to like for because I have my first international match. So I like get all the, it's this whole ordeal. And they pull me out breakfast the next morning. They're like, hey, we want you to be on the World cup squad. And I said, well, how long is that going to be? And they were like, well, you will go to San Diego for a week, camp at the Olympic training and then we're off to New Zealand for seven weeks. I was like, well, I was already too, I was too old, too late into my career and I had left my wife in Salt Lake City, which is not where we're from. So she had no friends, no family, and is pregnant with our first child. And I'd be due home about, like, five days before Christmas, probably without my job, if I left for. So I was like, you guys, I'm out. I can't do it. And they were like, hey, you know what? No problem. We'd probably make that same decision. The head coach was a guy named Eddie o', Sullivan, this Irish guy. He goes, I'd probably tell my own sons to make that same decision. And then they probably removed me from the player pool. And I never made it back to Team USA ever again because I was the. I was the guy who turned down their invite to the World Cup.

It's like getting accepted to Harvard and saying, I'm going somewhere else.

Yeah, Yeah, I think I'm out. I think I'm out. So it was funny, and it feels like a past life.

I'm curious, though, real quick, because you played defensive end. I assume that's what you were trying to walk on at csu.

I was actually. I was trying to walk in on a Titan.

Oh, tight end. Okay. Who did you play arena football for?

So it's actually. It was an expansion team out of the Budweiser Event center right outside of

Fort Collins, going out of Colorado.

Yeah, the Colorado Ice.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay. Colorado Ice at the Budweiser Event Center. And then after Arena 1 folded a few years later and they bought the rights to call it the Colorado Crush.

That's okay.

Yeah. So my expansion team, the Colorado Ice, which is what you see on the football up there, later changed their name to the Colorado Crush.

Well, real quick, I'm curious because, like, I've heard. You've heard of situations where maybe, like, a New Zealand rugby player has transitioned to the NFL for a couple of years.

Yes.

But you haven't really heard the opposite where a football player maybe become a rugby player.

Yeah, you'd make.

You getting in that game, making those 13 tackles. Did it? Did what? You know, how do I say this? What you were doing as a defensive end really apply to what you're doing on the rugby field?

Not particularly.

Okay.

No, like. So rugby. Rugby is a very, very much like the science of a tackle. Which is why usa, nf, NFL football, actually now, their whole, like, tackle smart challenge, like training kids and coaches and youth leagues how to tackle is all based on rugby, tackle, tackling. So it's like, there's a science to tackling where you don't injure your head all the time. And rugby players have had to learn that, you know, art for 100 years because they don't have a helmet on. And American football players have Basically just learned how to run into each other with their helmet. And we realized that caused all sorts of, all sorts of issues, including lots of concussions. And so now we're teaching young football players to tackle like a rugby player. So no, mostly what I, what I struggled with, having not played football in college and then coming back to arena with a defensive end is you're basically a pass for our specialist, which is how defensive end works in the NFL today too. And so you have to be fast, but more so than top end speed is, you have to be really quick. And it's all like hands. It's like, can you. Because you can. Anybody can tackle a little quarterback like that. Literally anyone can do that. The hardest part is getting around a 350 pound defensive tackle. So that was very hard. Going back to rugby, that's mostly just like you're having to tackle guys who are much more agile and much stronger in some cases than an NFL quarterback. It's like you got to be ready to tackle the offensive tackle.

Form is even more important probably.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure.

One of the things I love about rugby is you guys can literally go and beat the shit out of each other.

Yeah.

And then at the end of the game, you all have a beer.

It's, it's. They call, they call it a gentleman's game played by hooligans because it very, very, it very much is. Like some of the wildest characters I have ever met just gravitate towards rugby.

Some of the guys you see on the, on the field with the just absolute. Yeah.

Lunatics.

You see that guy in a, in a back alley, you'd be like, oh, crap.

And most every, I'd say probably 90 of the college programs in the United states are split 50, 50 between high level athletes whose career and whatever their other sport is has come to an end and they're looking for something new. Mostly football players and drinkers who just like want to, you know, they want the social aspect of it. So it's like 50, 50. And some of the drinkers can really play and some of the athletes can really drink, but they merge together to form a rugby team. And it's, and it is very much the like the gentlemanly aspect of respecting your opponent. And we would travel when I was playing in the Midwest, I was playing for a club in Minneapolis for many years. And we would travel over to like Milwaukee and have just these like knockdown, drag out fights with the Milwaukee Barbarians. And then they would host us for a postmatch social. They would have us to their like bar, pub and they'd host us, they'd serve food and beer and we would be walking there, we'd be walking in with like black eyes and covered in mud. But you can't, you always came to their social. It's very gentlemanly for sure.

I love that. It's a good lesson for, for society today to think about it.

It's not too unlike health care.

You can beat each other up sometimes it's going to get tense.

Yes.

But at the end of the day, just know I love you, you know?

Yeah, yeah. And there's, it's, it's got parallels to basically every aspect of our country right now, particularly political and cultural.

Yeah, I, I could talk to you all day about rugby, but yeah, this is a chance.

We gotta talk about healthcare at some point.

Let's talk about Healthcare Strategies. So you're the VP of sales at Healthcare Strategies.

You got it.

For the people tuning in, going Health care strategies, I use health care strategies that I deploy. Talk to us about who is Healthcare Strategies.

Yeah, sure. Healthcare Strategies is an interesting, was an interesting transition for me. So Healthcare Strategies is like a 40 year old company. They were a sole proprietorship. This couple started them in the, in the mid-80s. They're out of Columbia, Maryland and their real bread and butter for a long time was medical management services. They do pre cert and um and case management and medical director review. You and they sort of like carved out a niche for themselves by doing it kind of like custom built. They were small, they were a little more nimble. They could just do one thing for you. They could offer just medical director reviews to a TPA that needed that or a TPA that just needed case. Some case management nurses, they could provide that. So they sort of got their, got their start, got their legs, built this big book of business on that. And then probably 15 years ago one of their IT developers said hey, you know, I've been working on this algorithm that should help us sort of like identify who's going to wind up in case management and these more catastrophic claims down the road. And it's evolved in that, that developer, his name is Matt Silverman, he's now our CIO and he built this AI algorithm is what it has evolved into that does a really nice job of identifying emerging risk in that like three to five year space. We do a lot of work in that predictive care space around with like labor groups certainly with, with brokers who are like putting together more progressive kind of. They need a, they Got a group who's sick or otherwise looking to contain costs. And so we can get out ahead of some of that stuff if you, if you invest in it early. So that's kind of. So we got bought by a venture capital firm called Altitude Ventures here in Nashville. And that's how I and our president ended up here. So I'm based in Nashville and here we are rocking.

Let's talk about. You use the term predictive care. I think when a lot of people even in our industry hear medical management, right. They think about, you know, case management, nurses reaching out, helping people with coordinating care and things like that. Yeah, predictive care is obviously very different than that. How does, how does predictive care differ from what a lot of people are used to in this industry when they think of something like medical management?

Yeah, well, it's very different. But I get that exact question like all the time, like Ryan, what's the difference between preventative case management and normal case management? And I said, well, I'll stop you right there. It's not preventative case management. Like case management. We obviously, obviously we, everybody knows what that is where you know, somebody has something acute, they have a claim come through it, you know, triggers a nurse to reach out and sort of like walk them through the process. And you know, that's obviously been shown to save a lot of money if you can get a couple of years upstream by identifying the care, open care gaps, potential drug interactions and events outside the standards of care for chronic conditions and generally not managing these, those things well. So when you get a couple of years worth of data and you can tell, hey, this person's actually on a downward trend in terms of their compliance of what their PCP has been asking them to do. That's someone who's like maybe a five alarm fire. And if you can, if you can then screen down to like ones who are still under say $5,000 worth of claims, now you're getting to folks before they've had that something catastrophic when you can go, hey, this person is emerging. They're not managing their health well. They've got these habits that we've identified. They're impactable. We can reach them, we've got good contact information from them. Let us go intercede. So our two teams, our team of case management nurses is completely separate from what our, the brand name for our preventative care is Health Reach. And our Health Reach nurses are a different team. They are not bouncing from one thing to another. They are two very specific job roles. And our, and our preventative care nurses, our health reach nurses are actually trained in motivational interviewing and things like that as part of their onboarding, so that they're very much interacting with someone who doesn't realize, hey, I have a problem yet. And that takes a little bit of finesse.

Yeah, I love how you just described that. Because the other way I like to look at it visually is if you think about a lot of case management, medical management, whatever you want to call it, it's looking out the back window. Right.

For sure.

Because a lot of it's already happened. The claim has already happened where you're looking out the front window. Got it going. Okay. What's yet to come, I'd be curious. Are there any, like, really meaningful indicators that can let you know in the predictive analytics and the, in the predictive care that really say, okay, this person is headed down the wrong path here?

Sure.

And they're about to be a really bad claim?

Sure. Yeah. And my CIO always corrects me that I. He's like, well, it's, you know, we can tell they're not managing their health well. These are people who have sometimes chronic conditions where they're not adhering to their PCP's recommendations, things like that. So they've got standards of care that start stacking up year over year where they haven't, you know, they haven't been back to a screening, they're not adhering to their medications. Those kind of things are pretty obvious. In the labor space, we see a lot of labor groups where like A1C trending up as an, you know, for the Teamsters as an example, A1C trending up means you could. Your. Your commercial driver's license becomes, you know, gets put at risk. And so we work with a lot of Teamsters funds who are like, whatever you got to do to keep our. To keep our members, you know, working, that's what we want to do. So, like, things like that where, you know, we can see that some of these, you know, indicative metrics are. Are getting worse in the data set year over year, and nothing's been done about them. So that person hasn't shown up in the hospital yet, but they very well could end up there.

Yeah. I'd be curious that. That was a question I wanted to ask you because when we spoke offline, you had mentioned you guys do a lot of work in the, the labor space, like team spurs and things like that. Is it just because they tend to have a lot of those health. How do I want to call it, risk indicators? That make them a good fit. But you guys have had a lot of success in the labor space. Is there a specific reason?

Yeah, you know, a labor population, you know, a group of labor members or union members is no sicker in, in most cases than like a lot of commercial groups. You know, they're not any more at risk. One thing that labor. And the reason I like, I like working with fund administrators is because, you know, it's multi employer. So this is not like one particular company. So these sort of, these, you know, fund administrators are very much like uniquely assigned the task of putting together the best possible option to take care of their members. And so they're uniquely invested in it. You know, sometimes you can, that line gets blurred with, you know, the head of benefits and the head of HR at a singular organization where it's like, hey, cost savings becomes the one thing we're driving towards. Or you know, recruiting and retaining talent is the top thing we're driving towards. Labor does a nice job in that they're very passionate about driving that and they put a lot of. It's like all of these preventative care programs are only as good as your ability to engage with folks.

Right.

It's like you could call folks all day, but if they won't call you back. Labor does a really nice job of managing the like carrot versus stick of making sure their members participate because all the, all the benefits are voluntary. So they go, hey, listen, if you're going to be on our, you know, the union fund for, for benefits, then you are going to return this call from this HCS nurse. Where some other companies are like, we like to tread a little lighter than that. Labor's like, get on the phone with them.

That's the point. A lot of employers want to be parental, right?

Yeah.

And, and, and it's sometimes they're, they, they're a little too soft on how they incorporate it. So they, they just hope their employees engage.

Yeah.

And we know exactly what's going to happen if you do that. Nothing will happen. You know, one thing that I really like about what you guys are doing is when you think about typical cost containment in the health insurance space today.

Yep.

It's all about how do we purchase a claim at a lower price. Right. Pharmacy. It's not about avoiding the drug, it's about buying it cheaper.

Yeah.

Imaging, CAT scans, MRIs, all that stuff. It's not about avoiding them. It's just, let's go find a facility that charges less.

Yes.

Yeah, but in your space it's no, let's talk about avoiding the claim altogether.

Yeah.

And, and what I would love to hear from you because you guys work through brokers, right?

Yep.

Where do you see the broker market? What's the word I want to look? Misposition.

Sure.

Predictive care in how they present it to their clients.

Yeah. Well, it's funny because, you know, brokers have a tough job and they're sort of like, they're sort of split between a couple of different objectives, sometimes accidentally, which is like what's best for them and then what's best for the group. You know, it's like sometimes it can be very lucrative to keep people rolling, program to program, you know. But one of the things about preventive care too that like has been a challenge is like, you know, groups who have been under a fully funded buka plan is like sort of the, the soil has been salted in. And what I mean by that is like some of these Bukas and larger TPAs. There are a lot of companies out there. I'll say, oh yeah, we do all that for you. That's all baked in. Don't worry. We're actually, oh, you want to look at your emerging risk and identify people before they're sick. Don't worry, we got that. We have all these, you know, we have all these, you know, components that we're going to bake. It's baked into your premium for free. So don't worry about that 15% increase this year. It's baked in. And we've included a lot of free features this year. And so that has sort of like salted the earth. Especially for, you know, groups who are newly self funded is they're going, well, what can you do, you know, around like some cost containment measures that you know, are included. And it's like, well, this is very different. You're self funded now. And so you, you want us to, you want us to identify who those folks are and start outreaching to them. I mean, we will save that. The savings on that stacks up really, really quick. You can get into the millions of dollars, but that's going to come at, you know, somewhat of a cost. And so there's sort of this like trade off of hey, I'm going fully funded. I know I'm gonna have to pick up a couple of dollars of ppm. So for the brokers, it's like you got to have the right group who's like ready for some more proactive, progressive measures. You can't just stick. It's not, you know, like we don't fit in every bundle that brokers are putting together but it works for the right group at the right time.

Well that's. I was also going to ask you misconceptions, you know, when you do get advisors who want to partner with you guys and put you in on a self and a plan, are there some common misconceptions they have about what you guys are going to do?

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I mean the, you already called one out in the preventive care versus case management where they're like well what's the difference? Like why do I need two, why do I need two programs that are doing the same thing? And it's like even to. It's been very interesting to have brokers go well what's the, what's the like to walk through a whole thing and have them go well what's the difference? And it's like well to your point, to use your analogy, one is you're looking back and there's cost savings to be add in. Looking back, don't get me wrong and getting this, you just gave several of those examples like getting them on the right, you know, getting the drug at a different price or sourcing it differently or going back. And you know we, we all know how successful like reference based pricing and direct contracting, some of these things on a look back can save you a lot of money on a look forward that's a completely different, completely different strategy. So that's the biggest misconception is that like oh, and then one of the misconceptions is like well how much is this going to save me in year one? And you're like well the savings of intervening on a care gap that like hasn't even really presented itself in the claims file yet is you won't, you know, you realize that over 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 years, not in the first year, really good, really good utilization management, pre auth case management, that's your first year savings. Preventive care, you count on that savings in three, the three to five year range.

Yeah, I think that's well said. I think our industry has fallen in love with the claims that have already happened and how you can reduce those claims. And we have overlooked the power of. But let's also put a risk mitigation strategy in place to help ensure tomorrow's claims actually don't happen or, or happen at a much lower level than, than they might today.

Absolutely.

Question. With that said, I'd be curious and I'm going to ask you put your thought leader cap on. You know we just went Through a lot of clients. And you know, we coach commercial and benefits, but a lot of our benefit clients just got their asses kicked in Q4. It was a tough renewal season. Renewals are higher than ever. And that includes stop loss. Right. I've, I've heard situations where carriers are saying our average are average. Like out of the gate, stop loss increase is starting to approach 20% trend.

Yeah.

What does that mean for predictive care and its importance in 2026 with all of this going on? How important is it that, that brokers look at something like this?

Yeah, well, obviously it's super important, but like preventive care is one of those things that like on the quadrant of what's urgent and what's high priority is like it's been one of those things that's super important but not that urgent. It feels like, it feels like some of this time we could keep kicking the can and kicking the can and kicking the can. And I think a lot of people are finally having the realization that this is like we're on an untenable course and we're gonna, you know, like we're gonna sink. We're gonna put our organization into harm's way if we don't do anything about the cost of our benefits. And it's like we, it just can't be a runaway train every year. And so I think it's interesting because once in a while it takes like some of these eye opening reports that are like, this is gonna be the highest increase ever that you know, and people have to start seeing crazy stuff like that 20 increase in your stop loss or 30 increase in your benefits. And it's like, it's, it's wild. It's like once, it's like it has to shake people once in a while. So it's like, maybe that's the benefit is that it's become so outlandish that like you got to start looking outside the, you know, outside what? You know, and sometimes that, you know, I talk to a lot of brokers who are kind of here and you know, looking at stuff like this for the first time. Hey, I got a group and you know, we've worked with these two TPAs before and they don't really offer anything like that because we do a lot of ours work through the TPAs too. But it's important that like, if you're ever going to get outside the wheelhouse, because it is, this is, this was a challenging, you know, renewal season for everybody. But it's like, okay, well maybe if you got A couple of those folks across the, across the finish line but you know, it's not going to make it next year. It's like, okay, we'll get out ahead of it early in 2026 and start putting together some of these options. So you come back to them and go, hey, you know one thing I was looking at after, you know, I know it was hard to stomach that 20% increase last year. One thing I looked at for you this year is this and this and this measure to control costs on a long term basis so we can invest in.

Well, I'm curious, I didn't intend to ask this, but if, if a stop loss carrier knows that you're embedded in the plan, are there opportunities for stop loss decrements?

Oh yeah, for sure.

Okay, so that can help an advisor lower the stop loss impact if we.

Absolutely, yeah, we have some, we're actually, I'm working on a couple of relationships where stop loss companies will use us specifically for that. That health reach analytics engine that tells you here are all the emerging folks that are sick has like for a long time we've like, we like people at HCS have raised their hand, been like this is actually great stop loss analytics. And it hasn't, we haven't had the partner who just uses it exclusively as that yet until, until right now. So I should have some very good case in 2026 where the, you know, the organization that I'm looking to partner with will use it specifically to analyze stop loss. And then they'll, and then by the way, they'll go, hey, and if you don't want it to look like this next year, here are some preventative measures that we, you know, we partner with with some of our kind of top vendors is what it'll look like and they can kick us over to us to help bring that down for the following year.

Love that hearing that man. You know, last question I wanted to ask is again, I'm watching a lot of my own clients. Literally if I'm on a zoom call with them, it looks like they just got their ass kicked. It's been a tough renewal season and I think advisors are looking for what can I do to find that differentiator. And I think there's also been a propensity of advisors who align with a vendor partner. Unfortunately, that vendor partner does not back up what they say they do.

For sure. Yeah.

And unfortunately then the brokers left to pick up the pieces and, and, and lose credibility with a client.

Yeah.

If you could give one piece of advice right now, to a benefit Advisor going into 2026 who is trying to create that differentiator in their market, what would that advice be?

You know, one thing that comes to mind when you're talking about like them putting their sort of, their, sort of their brand and reputation at risk the first time because like I've, that's a lot of what I've faced in a couple of years at HCX was sort of like trying to break into brokers who have good relationships and good groups and a good book of business. And there's no really good reason to upset the apple cart until these last couple of renewal seasons. And so one of the things I'd recommend to them obviously is like, okay, well hey, you know, keeping some of this in your back pocket in terms of, in terms of a strategy. And the other thing is really kind of like sample it pilot programs like prototyping, all this stuff where you go, hey, I'm, I'm maybe not, I'm taking my biggest group, I'm not taking 10, 000 lives over to try something a little bit proactive. But hey, I got a couple of 50 or 100 person groups like do this, you know, take a smaller group, stick them on this, you know, test this stuff, prototype it, make sure there's returns and you know, and we're willing right now we hear a lot of that too. And one of the things we've been willing to do is sort of like bake in some of the, the guarantees on returns, break in care gap closure, you know, as a financial guarantee, bake some of the PPM into a, you know, put some of our, put some of our revenue at risk. And that has helped mitigate some of that like initial challenge of like wow, this sounds really good. But how and where in my book of business do I give it a shot? Find that one group that really needs something, put them with us and we'll put some of that at risk with you.

I was just gonna say, and you're willing to put, put your, put the, put the money where your mouth is.

You know, one thing I do for a lot of groups too in advance of that is like, give me that, like let's sign a, let's sign an NDA and send me their data, Send me their data. And let me tell you in advance how much savings there is to be had on emerging risk and how many folks are going to be sick in the next three or four years. And then maybe when they see it and go, that was one of my brand new labor Groups was, you know, they worked with another vendor who had only done a handful of case management last year, you know, like a dozen case management cases. And they sent their 2024 data over to us. And I said, well, we identified 525 people for outreach and they were like, like jaw on the floor. It's like, oh, okay, well, okay then obviously there's enough meat on that bone for us to look at doing this.

Well, you make the broker look good when you do that. I, I love that you just said that because I think we've arrived at a day and age, especially for brokers who are going upstream. Yeah, larger groups, self funded groups. You've got to prove yourself before they'll hire you for sure. And a consultant is somebody who comes in and says, all right, here's what we think we can do for you. Here's what this savings opportunity looks like. Now it's up to you to decide if this is the path you want to go down.

So I do a ton of that, ton of free analysis right now. We put the brokers in good spot.

Somebody was tuning in here and now I was like, all right, I've got these opportunities, I've got clients, I've got prospects next year. And they wanted to reach out to you. Ryan, what's the easiest way to do that?

So my email is super easy. It's Ryan Chapman. Our email address iscare.net that's actually our website too. Hcare.net so it's like when you Google healthcare strategies, all sorts of stuff comes up. So hcare.net is our website and I'm ryan.chapmanhcare.net, and of course I'm on LinkedIn. You can find me there. I post a ton of your homepage will get spammed with all of my insurance content on a weekly basis. So it might be a good follow up.

Music to my ears, man. That's how you build thought leadership and make sure they don't follow.

Sure it is.

Well, Ryan, it's been a pleasure, man. Thank you for jumping on.

Absolutely. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, I appreciate the opportunity. It's been great to chat.

And if you're a benefit advisor or you're part of a team that has benefit advisors, make sure you check healthcare strategies out. That could be a very nice differentiator for your agency going into 2026 here, be good.

Love that.