The Truth About Selling Your Insurance Agency | with Jon Lipton

Hey, hey, welcome back to the Accelerate Your Insurance Sales podcast. Andy Neary here, CEO and founder of Complete Game Consulting. This is part of our Broker's Voice series. Today I'm joined by John Lipton. John's a 30-year veteran, uh, and leading property and casualty insurance advisor specializing in construction, real estate, and manufacturing risks. John works on complex high-exposure projects and is known for helping clients navigate some of the most missed understood areas of insurance, particularly general liability, product liability, completed operations liability, builder's risk, property risk transfer, and coverage gaps. He's also a New York State insurance instructor and expert witness, bringing a real-world perspective on how coverage actually performs when claims hit. John is an active voice on LinkedIn, where he shares practical insights and real-life scenarios from the field. He was also instrumental in helping bring CBD-related insurance products to the market through Lloyd's of London. I might ask you about that, John. John John, welcome aboard.

Great, thanks, Andy. I appreciate you having me and look forward to the conversation.

Yeah, I know what I didn't say, uh, in introducing you that I think is going to be a fun part of the conversation is you're one of the few insurance professionals, agency owners that I've met that, uh, got to the finish line, sold an agency, bought it back, and then sold it again. So we're definitely going to talk about that. But where I love to start, John, is, you know, most of us did not get in the insurance industry by design. You actually had a career in forex trading before you got in the insurance industry. Talk about that a little bit.

Yeah, so I was a banking and finance major in college, got out, always wanted to trade something, whether it be equities, commodities, derivatives, options, whatever. Came out, probably sent up, you know, 100 letters out here. I opened up the stock and commodity Trading Association magazine. Must be 100 companies there. Sent letters to all of them asking for a job and trading whatever on the floor. Ended up trading, uh, for Forex, which is foreign exchange, um, trading. I was trading on the bank floor of, uh, of a well-known French bank, um, and I was doing— I did that for several years, um, It was— that's how I found myself in that business. I, you know, I love the business, very high-paced business. I've, I mean, I've seen guys lose a million dollars in, in 3 to 5 seconds, uh, you know, guys, a few guys drop dead of heart attacks on the floor. And, you know, once that happens, everybody goes to the doctor. And it's, uh, it was a good— it was, it was good, but you know something, you can't do it forever. And as you get older, you, you have to find a more stable, balanced career.

Yeah, I'd be curious. I'm going to ask you how you got into— how you transitioned from forex trading to the insurance industry. But before I do, compare the stress between the floor and selling insurance.

The stress levels are very, very, very— I mean, like I said, people dropping dead of heart attacks. Very stressful. I mean, the amount of money that's just flowing through. I mean, you're talking about, you know, $10 million trades against other currencies. You know, a yard of dollars is, you know, a billion dollars you're trading. And, you know, the markets, they say that the forex market is probably the fastest moving market of anything. I mean, you know, it gaps up and down. And when there's no price in the market and you're on the wrong side, I mean, you can't get out of a trade. You know, you panic. You know, nobody is taking the other side of the trade. I mean, I've seen the French franc collapse and, you know, the currency collapse. And when that collapsed, I was, I was actually sitting in the seat when, when the franc collapsed. And there's just a complete void, you know. There's just— you can't get out of the trade if you're on the wrong side of the trade. It's very scary. It's very, very, very stressful.

Probably a surreal moment looking up, just trying to figure out what just happened.

Well, I remember the day. I mean, I don't want to waste too much of your time, but we had to line into the Central Bank of France because we were a French bank. When you call up the French bank and you're trying to offload a billion dollars at a time and the French bank is basically saying, we'll take it, we'll take it, we'll take it. And then you say, well, every bank in the world, every hedge fund guy in the world is trying to collapse the currency, you know, and then you call, you get on the central bank on the phone and they say, you know, you take a, you know, billion dollars and they're like, hold on one second. You know, at that point it's collapsing and then it just goes into the abyssal plane.

Well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make an assumption and I might be wrong. Was it that stress or probably maybe likewise burnout that led you to seek another profession, which also ultimately landed you in the insurance industry, or was it something else?

Well, you know something, I think when you're trading, I think there's, there's a personality trading, and I think when you are trading, it's almost like, um, it's almost like an addiction, the, the rush and the high to it. So it wasn't— I don't— it wasn't the stress to me, it was You know, the— when I was in the industry, I was back in the early '90s, we, we had the euro, the— well, we call it the euro now. Back then it was called the ECU, and even the symbol was different, you know, um, but you know, you had 16 currencies collapsing into one currency. So after that happened with the advent of the euro, we're losing 16 currencies to trade. You know, how many jobs are going to be left, right? You're going to have, you know, the, the few current, uh, countries that aren't going into the euro that you could still trade, some of the exotics and the Scandis. Um, so it really— I was worried more about job security than I was about stress.

What made you seek insurance?

You know, I didn't seek insurance.

And to your point, in the beginning, insurance, uh, it found you like most of us.

It found me. I had a family member in the business Jay Levy, who is, you know, I thank for getting me in the industry, you know, very thankful that he got me in the industry. I owe a lot of gratitude to him for getting me in this industry. It's done and served me well. But he owned a large wholesaling company, wholesaler. And he asked me to come into the industry. And I started working there. So he was a wholesaler, MGA, MGU. So I was working there for, for, for a few months, and then I met somebody there, um, at, at, at the company, um, who approached me, and we felt there was an opportunity— he felt there was an opportunity in the retail space because, you know, in the small brokerage space, there's you know, there's not a lot of talent in that. Well, back then there wasn't a lot of talent in that space. I thought there was a great— we thought there was a great opportunity. We ended up leaving the agency. Again, very grateful to my brother-in-law Jay Levy. Ended up leaving and starting a scratch agency. I mean, we built the store by hand. We put up the studs, we put up the sheetrock, we put up the ceiling, you know, we just— He stayed at the agency until I was done building it. And then we had some business, we were up and running, and then he ended up leaving. And he had since passed away, but he was very young.

Yeah, I think it's not uncommon, John. You know, I worked, we've worked with enough folks who've made the jump now from the wholesale side to the retail side. I think one reason a lot of wholesale sales reps do that is, I'm just going to say it, our industry has a low bar to entry. And I think there's a lot of wholesale partners who look at the retail and say, okay, if they can do it, I can do it. And ultimately decide to make that decision. That's why I see so many jump from say an Aflac or a Colonial or just any carrier and make that jump because they see who's winning on the other side. And to your point, talent isn't always there, yet they're still winning. And I think it gives people a lot of confidence that I can do this too. I think what you did that is really unique is you made the jump and started your own scratch firm at the same time.

Right. That's difficult, especially when you're newly married, you have a kid on the way. It was a very difficult decision to make.

But I was going to ask you, because of your past on the forex trading floor, that stress that you dealt with on a daily basis, do you think that gave you the grit and the fortitude to be able to go out on your own right away?

Yeah, listen, I wanted to leave a legacy for my children, right, to come into the business, hopefully, which they haven't. But, you know, back then thinking about, you know, I want to, I want to create my own legacy. You know, my brother-in-law certainly has a legacy and he's done extremely well, you know, and he's created a legacy for his children. I wanted to, I wanted the same opportunity to do that for my family. So, you know, dealing with the stress, it was very difficult to deal with the stress, you know, starting. You have no money coming in. It was, you know, it was difficult. But, you know, I think dealing with the stress on the floor and the stress of the market certainly helped get through it and just see that runway and get to the finish line.

Talk about that journey, though, as this might be a two-part question. The journey as an entrepreneur, you know, go back to the days of because what we're ultimately getting to here is you obviously built a successful agency that ultimately sold. But when you go back to the early days of building that, um, what do you think, what decisions do you think you made well that gave you or the agency the opportunity to grow? And likewise, if there is somebody listening who may be at that stage or thinking about going on, on their own, if there's any tips you would give them, because I'm sure you, uh, there were things that went wrong, but I'm sure there were a lot of things you did right to make sure that agency grew?

Yeah, you know, I think the most important thing is, you know, getting into this— few things I said growing up. I said, number one, I'm never going to get insurance. Number two, I'm never going to move to New Jersey. And three, I'm— I'll never move to Florida either. You know, I— now I was in insurance, I moved to New Jersey, and now I'm in Florida. So, you know, never say never. Um, I, I think a lot. Again, I didn't want to be insurance because I don't want to be that guy. You know, you go into a room, oh, here comes the insurance guy. He's going to say, you know, and then, you know, next thing everyone scrambles like cockroaches and flees because the insurance broker's coming into the room. I think that, I think that my, what I can offer people that are in it now is it don't, and P&C is a great space to be in because everybody needs it. So you're selling a need and not something, you know, life insurance is very difficult. People will never reap the benefit. Those people, I mean, their families will certainly reap the benefit. I have nothing against life insurance, but, you know, that person has a hard time buying life insurance because he'll never reap that money. You know, he has to die in order to get it. P&C, you have to have. Everyone's got to have it. You got to have auto. You got to buy a car. To drive a car, you need insurance. Have a home. You have to have insurance. Every business is— you have to have— everyone needs insurance. So in this business, it's a little different than other businesses because again, it's a need-based product. But don't go into it as a sale or a hard sale. I think understanding the product and properly being able to convey it and know what you're talking about and sound and speak with conviction and confidence. I think that creates the sale. And I, and I believe that if you dedicate the time and the education to understanding what you're selling and properly conveying that, it's— you're not selling, you're, you're— it just comes to you, right? I mean, you don't worry about where am I getting my next check from, it, it just It eventually comes. Just, you got to give it time and you got to understand what you're selling and being able to properly convey it.

Yeah, you bring up a really, actually, really good point. I'd love your opinion on, you know, when it comes to selling insurance, every insurance comes with a different, what's the word I'm thinking of here? Perspective, maybe? Like life insurance, like you said, you technically don't have to have it. So now that's a different sale because you're trying to convince somebody not only to buy it, but why they need it in the first place. Whereas commercial insurance, they have to have it. So you're selling something they have to have, but at the same time, you're selling something they already have and trying to replace somebody they already work with. Right. And so those are different sales. But here's what I'd be curious about, because you said it just a couple of minutes ago. When you were young, you didn't, you didn't like insurance. You're like, I never want— I'm never going to buy insurance. Now that you own an agency and you're selling commercial insurance, did you start to see the conviction behind what you were doing by helping businesses keep their doors open? Because I think that's important. You know, anybody in our industry, I think, that has success has a conviction behind what they're doing.

Yeah, no, I certainly, I feel that selling insurance, I'm helping people. Like, you know, we educate people. I mean, if you go to our website, you'll see That's what we do. You know, anytime somebody calls, it's not, you know, New York, you know, I don't want to— we will talk about this later, but being an expert witness, you know, New York is an order taker state. And the client calls up and the client says, I want X, Y, and Z. But I think we take a little different approach. It's they tell us what they want. A lot of them, you're selling a very sophisticated product. To a very unsophisticated client. And I'm not saying they're not intelligent. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying they don't know insurance. I mean, then they should know insurance because they're in their own business selling whatever, building, construction. So they need to look to somebody that will educate them. So if someone says, you know, I need X, Y, and Z and say, well, you know something, let's, let's talk through it. You need this, that, and the other thing. It's not like a number 2 pencil. You know, insurance has exclusions, it has conditions, it has warranties. And getting through those complexities and understanding the complexities, which we always try to do, certainly helps put them at ease, the client at ease. And when they come back and they have a claim and it's covered, they're— I mean, they're so grateful. They're that, you know, thank you so much, John, for doing that. You know, sometimes they throw things in there into people's coverage. They don't even know they have it, you know, and then they turn around and they find that they did have it and they're covered and they're thankful. I mean, you could go to our website and you'll see some of the reviews, but most people, the satisfaction that I get from this industry is when people, my clients turn around and thank me for number one, explaining, number two, when something's covered. And just being able to talk through it and properly service them.

Yeah, you bring up a really good point. I don't think it's degrading anybody. It's most businesses, most business executives don't know how to buy insurance or they don't know, they don't know exactly what they're buying. And I think as an industry, we have just allowed them to continue to buy that way without the knowledge they need. And we play into that. Hence why we have in many ways haven't solved the problem for them, especially on the health insurance side, where it's become a big, big issue.

Um, okay, Andy, one thing I do have to say is that I get, I, I get upset when I see, you know, someone comes to me, a client comes to me, and they say, you know, I, I don't, I'm not comfortable with my broker. And I see like some of the things the broker sells to them, it's just, they're just trying to make a sale and not just trying to make money and not properly servicing the client. You know, I, I find that very, very upsetting.

Yeah, John, I think your point you're making is relevant there. You know, you talked about, like I said, our industry has a low bar of entry. And unfortunately, with that low bar of entry can come bad behavior. And you see advisors selling products purely off their interests, their bottom line, their wallets, and not for the client's best interest, which is why I think a lot of And I, and it goes back to what you just said there. It's kind of preying off the fact that a lot of business executives don't know what they're buying. And, and when they don't know what they're buying, it is easy to convince them, uh, that they need certain products, things like that, that are not in their best interest, but again, only help grow the agency.

To add to that, Andy Neary too, there's a lot of people, again, the barrier to entry, you know, what is it? 100, 5 hours in New York, you know, someone's in a classroom, they're teaching them theory and not reality. And then you turn around, so people, I mean, there are bad actors out there that are selling people garbage just to make money, but there's also people out there that just don't know the coverages. They don't know the, you know, again, expert witness stuff. You, these people get cross-examined. Some of these brokers, I do broker defense, I would never go against a broker. I just think it's bad karma. Um, but you know, you see some of these brokers, it just— they just don't know. They don't. We didn't— I didn't know label law. I didn't know this coverage existed. I didn't know X, Y, and Z. I didn't know about this exclusion. I didn't see the exclusion buried in the— like, it's just they don't know.

Yeah. Well, let's fast forward a little bit. So you guys hit a point where you realize that you have an opportunity to sell the agency, and I'm curious what At that moment, what felt attractive about selling the agency to you?

You know, what was really attractive is you find, when you're a smaller agency, I think it's a little more difficult to sell insurance to a bigger clientele. You know, I was at that point in my career where I'm like, you know, I want, I, I want these bigger clients. And then, you know, some of these bigger clients, you're dealing with some of these, you know, even selling FI, financial institution insurance, the banks, you know, or just big companies, they won't talk to you because you're a little company. So I think what some of the things that I saw with being bought were access to markets, which people take for granted. And are not easy to get. I mean, back in the early 2000s, you couldn't just go to Chubb and say, hey, give me an appointment, or Hartford, hey, hey, you know, give me an appointment. They weren't doing it. You know, they were limited in who they were giving appointments to. Most of the smaller brokers had to go through aggregators. So I think that what appealed to me being a big— going to a bigger company was access to HR, access to billing, accounting, doing the taxes, market access, access to carriers, access to just being a bigger company that, that, that bigger companies, what clients want to deal with, you know, they want to deal with bigger, more financially secure companies. And not that we weren't financially secure, but, you know, you're a smaller company. So The more access to markets, back office support were very, very important.

I'd be curious. So, when you sold, you definitely probably feel a transition from ownership, right? Where you're now, you're no longer owning the entity. And as somebody who has been an entrepreneur pretty much your entire time in the insurance industry outside of the early role at the wholesaler. Was that— what was that feeling like for you? Did, did, did it feel like you were giving up control? You know, I've talked to a lot of, uh, agency owners, including a former mentor of mine who have sold. And at the time of the sale, it feels great. But, you know, as an entrepreneur where you have only reported to yourself for so long, that, that feeling, it can be a, it can be a weird feeling after a while. Right.

Well, the, the great, The first time we sold was, I mean, we made the greatest deal ever. So the deal, I agreed to sell the agency, but I'd only sell 50%. So for me, I wasn't giving up anything, you know, like, okay, what was it? Was so great. And that ultimately ended up the reason why I had to buy the company back. But, you know, owning 50%, it was interesting because the company had come to me And out of nowhere, they increased my expenses from like 3 to 4%. And I went back to the company. I now own 50% of the company. I said, I don't remember the board voting on that increase. Do you have like, do you, do you have the, the minutes from that board meeting? Because I don't remember that. The next hour they, they put the, they put the expenses back. So I had all these people within the organization calling me up going, you know, hey, John, what, you know, they just increase our expenses because there's a bunch of companies that are bought out. Hey, John, these are some crazy expenses. What do you do about it? Well, you know, I only sold 50%, so they couldn't increase my expenses, you know? And they're like, oh my God, how'd you do that? Like, but you can't do those deals anymore. People come to me and they said, John, how do I— I want to sell my company, but I want the same deal that you had. It doesn't exist anymore.

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You know, it was just, it was, it was a great situation. And I, I would not have sold the company if it wasn't 50/50 back then. And it was a great deal for us. And that's ultimately the reason why we had to buy the company back.

What, what led to, you know, what led to you ultimately buying that other 50% back?

Well, at that point I was with, I remember that I sold my company to Capacity Group. Capacity Group in turn, a year later, unbeknownst to me, turned around and sold their company, Capacity Group, to Epic. And we were with Epic for a long time. Great company, very, very, very smart people. I mean, I still speak to some of them to this day. I maintain, you know, a relationship with some of them. I speak to the claims department guy, Andy Detremont, every day. I mean, I have the utmost respect for a lot of these guys. But, you know, they got to a point where I think that they wanted to— and again, this is my opinion, I don't know this for a fact, but I I think all the entities that they partly owned, they wanted to own 100%. I don't know if they were getting ready to turn to another PE company or selling the company. Again, I don't know, selling to an organization or going public, I don't know. But they wanted to clean up shop a little bit and they wanted ownership. So it was either me buy them or them buy me. It turns around. That, um, you know, the— and when you're dealing— this is some, some advice to people that are selling, you know, the devil's certainly in the details. So I think Capacity Group had the idea that they would eventually buy out the, the remaining 50% of my business, so they made the price of the balance of the 50% very, very low. Not knowing that, you know, either I can afford to buy it back or that I even saw it, you know. So when Epic came to us, you know, either we buy you or you buy them, the— I don't, I don't even think that they reviewed the contract because they— there was so many, you know, the company was so massive, you know, because it was so attractive, the price was so low. I think even they were surprised. They said, you know, we'd like to buy the company back. It was like, you know, very reasonable.

Yeah, well, it gave you an opportunity to take control back, uh, and, and, and then you turned around and ultimately did it again by selling the agency to 100% this time. 100% to Risk Strategies, which has now ultimately become Brown Brown. You know, I'd be curious— this is where I'd love for you to put your entrepreneur hat back on. Okay, you've done this twice now, right? You sold originally and you sold under an agreement like you— that you said really no longer exists. You can't sell 50% of your agency, but you did something right to grow to a point to be able to be attractive enough for somebody to come in and want to buy you. Bought it back, and now you've repeated the process again to be attractive enough for somebody to come buy you.

When you— so we bought— so we bought it back, and then the next day we sold it.

Oh, it was that quick?

Yeah, we bought it and sold it the next day. Yeah, the delta was there to do it.

In your opinion then, okay, what does it take to grow a successful agency if the ultimate— if the ultimate finish line is I do want to sell this agency on my terms. What do you think that takes today?

You know, I don't think, I don't believe, or I'm speaking for myself in my opinion, I don't think you go into the business saying, you know, I'm going to start an agency, I'm going to sell it. You know, you go into an agency, most people don't do that. I mean, now some of these AI companies and these InsurTechs, you know, they come in, you with business plans and they, you know, they, with the intention, you know, I got a 3 to 5 year horizon, I'm gonna turn this thing, I'm blowing it out, I'm gonna flip it. But I think like as a small agency owner, which a lot of people are when they get into the business, I don't think they go into it saying, hey listen, I'm gonna blow this thing. I mean, let's say everybody comes in, it's funny because, you know, when you show these businesses and they're like, oh, I'm a new business and you say, you know, and everything's, you know, you need to know their estimated sales. Like, oh, I'm gonna make a billion dollars, Yeah, I don't think so. You know, everyone comes in with these thinking they're going to make a ton of money, especially, you know, insurance. It's not— that's not reality. So I think I came into it, and speaking to other business owners, you come into the business wanting to really start something as a— as to hand off to your, your family, your children, and in the meantime, to support your family. With really no intention of selling. I mean, I had no intention of starting it and selling it. And I think a lot of small business owners don't think that way. They come in, this is a way to support my family and this is a legacy I'm going to leave my children. But, you know, going into it thinking that way, you go into it and say, I'm going to come into this business and I'm going to, I'm going to learn as much as I possibly can. I'm going to be involved. You know, I joined PIA, Professional Insurance Agents. To understand, you know, what's going on in the industry. I was on the Government Affairs Committee. I was on, you know, just understanding how things work in government and how it affects our industry. I think I implore everybody to get involved and do that. You know, PIA is actively looking for people that want to come in and help the industry. You know, unfortunately now down in Florida, but I would have loved to stay as a member of that organization. It's a great organization. Both locally in New York and nationally. You know, kudos, kudos to them. They did a fantastic job and they continue to do a fantastic job. But I came in the industry just again supporting my family, want to leave a legacy. And I think the most important thing is, number one, get involved into the, in the industry. Number two, go, go into the industry wanting to help people, educate people. And certainly understand what you're selling and service them. You know, I always say my famous Chinese proverb is if you want to, you want to, you want your, I forgot what it was, but it's if you want to live for a year, sow rice. If you want 10 years, plant trees. If you want to last forever, educate. Hmm. I don't know the exact number, but it's something to that effect.

Yeah, yeah. It's the punchline to the entire conversation was my question was the wrong question, which is if I get into the industry and I already have a finish line in mind, that's probably not a good way to start an agency. It's going in because you want to make an impact. And I think there are people out there, John, who do go out on their own with a finish line already in mind. I, I've had several conversations since I started this company, because I'm not selling insurance anymore. I've had several people tell me, "Dude, why don't you get, why don't you go start an agency and then sell it in like 4 years? All you gotta do is get it to a certain revenue number and you can sell it for 4 to 5 times, you know, EBITDA, and you're good." It's like, yeah, but if you're going in it with the finish line in mind, are you gonna make the right decisions?

Yeah, yeah, exactly. You're probably not going to make the right decisions and you're going to stress yourself out. You're like, I can't get these numbers. It's not working. Like, you can't go in that way. You just go in there.

I was going to say, I see that on the private equity side, John. Sorry. When I see the large firms or some of these entities in the industry who are owned by private equity, that pressure is real. The numbers, the numbers, the numbers. Where are they?

Why aren't we hitting them? Yeah. Oh yeah, I see it. Yeah, you know, that's one thing I have to say about Carlyle Group. They were very, very not hands-off. I mean, they knew, you know, with Epic, they weren't hands-off, but they certainly left you alone. And that was a great thing about Epic. You know, they let us run our business. They kind of left us alone. I mean, we had, you know, margins of 40%, and we were on a growth trajectory of 20-30% a year. But, you know, they were pretty much hands-off, which is great.

What advice would you give if there is somebody out there who is in the position currently where they are looking to sell, or maybe they even have a deal on the table? Any advice you'd give them if they're sitting in a position of selling at this moment? Anything they should be looking for, be careful of?

Yeah, yeah. I, I, again, like I said in the beginning, I, the devil is certainly in the detail. And I could tell you from experience, I don't want to name the company, but you come into a company with a deal and you have a contract with them, and then the company turns around and sells it, you may not have the same deal that you started with. You know, you come in, the new company says, well, you know, thank you very much, here's our new contract. So what happened in this case, again, I'm not naming any companies, but they came in here and they said— and these are little companies that you're buying, these are mom-and-pop companies, you know, mid-sized companies. I mean, obviously there's bigger companies, but You know, they came in and they said, we're not paying revenue under $10,000 in revenue or $100,000 in premium. You know, that's, you know, people call me up crying going, you know, John, what do I do? You know, like, yeah, I mean, these are the things you really need to make sure. And you know, we're on insurance. So, you know, when you're insuring something, you want to think of things that are outside of your policy. Peripheral vision, right? You want to think of, you know, when you're insuring manufacturing risk, you may have contingent properties. Like, who would think of insuring contingent property? I get my materials over from a guy in New Jersey who happens to be on, on the ocean, and next thing you know, that guy gets wiped out by a hurricane, and where am I getting my materials from? So, I mean, it's the same thing here, right? So, you mean you got to think of these things, and that's a perfect example where you come in, you can't change my commission structure, you know, like, you get bought by another company, my commission structure stays the same. I want commission if I'm making a dollar or if I'm making $100,000. I don't want— don't tell me that I can get paid on revenue under $10,000. I mean, I'm out of business.

Yeah, it's a good point. I think the game changed definitely. I don't remember how many years ago it was when Brown Brown bought Hayes. That was the first real, like, big entity buying another fairly big entity. And you see it now, to your point, an agency that was, call it, independent, ma pa, sells to an agency who now— or to a larger firm who has now gone on to sell to an even larger firm. That transition and acquisitions, I'm sure the deals can definitely change where if you were the agency owner of the small boutique firm your deal may look nothing like it did when you originally sold.

Yeah. Yeah. You just, they just took you as a little tadpole and threw you into the ocean. I mean, you're, you have no say. You, you just, just dead in the water.

I've seen a lot of, you know, I've seen a lot of, uh, of, of independent agency owners over the years sell and because of deals like that, situations like that, instead of going through their earnout and riding off into the sunset. I— they're still selling today with another organization. And I think a lot of it is it's almost like they have this chip on their shoulder, John, because of what they just went through, that now they have this feeling like they've got to go out and still prove themselves when they could have been retired 3 or 4 years ago.

Yeah, yeah, it's sad. I get calls, like I said, I get calls all the time and people are crying and, you know, what do I do? I can't, you know, Yeah, it's terrible. It's terrible.

Well, it's all good information. That's why I'm glad we had this conversation. It's all good information for anybody. If you're listening in right now and you are at that point of starting to entertain offers, you got to make sure you do your due diligence. It's not about just going with the highest offer or somebody you think might have the most resources. As John said, the devil's in the details and make sure you are locked in and laser focused on the details. John, you had mentioned offline that you also do a lot of expert witness work with claims activity. Talk a little bit about that. I find that interesting. What, what, uh, what does that look like?

Yeah, you know, it's interesting. Like I said, I would never ever— I'm, I'm approached by lawyers that wanted expert witness stuff, and again, it's coverage, um, coverage issues, and it's, uh, broker defense. You know, the first question I always ask is if I'm on the— if I'm not on the broker side, I will not take the case. I just think it's bad karma to sue another broker. And I think you see that in the legal industry as well. I mean, most lawyers don't want to sue other lawyers, but, you know, for me, it's karma. I would never go against another broker. But it's interesting to see, and it certainly helps me within this, within my business, to see some of the gaps in coverage, some of the claims activities that come in, and some of the things that brokers are sued for. Again, you know, it's not all broker defense, but it's It's coverage issues when carriers aren't, you know, clients aren't happy with the coverage or— but it helps me figure out and educate my staff and friends and whoever comes to me for advice on the gaps in coverage that we have and to protect that from happening to us and our company. I mean, I see some wild things out there. Sometimes I can't— it's just so abhorrent, so bad that you just can't defend them. Say, sorry, you know, I just can't help you. It's just—

yeah, it requires you to make a very important judgment call. Yeah, I respect you. Yeah. And I respect that you refuse to take a case where you would have to go against a broker, being that you are one. I kind of agree with the karma thing.

And even if it was so egregious, I would not, I wouldn't do it.

Yeah. Just, you just say no.

I would just bow out and say like, you know, I can't help you.

But that, I, I wanted people to hear that because I think that to me speaks to the conviction you have for what you do as well. You're not only selling an insurance product to businesses, you're also playing an important role, whether it's your participation in PIA or as a claim, as a, as an expert witness. Um, we need more people and I, I, I calling myself out on this. We need more people who are actively involved in making this a better industry. And work like that proves to me you are dedicated to leaving a bigger impact than just selling insurance.

Yeah, yeah. I get upset with people when they don't want to be involved in the industry that served them so well. It's just, you know, a little bit of your time, just, you know, 5 minutes, mentor somebody. I was mentoring some people too, and I still mentor people. I think it's a great thing to do.

So, John, I, we always wrap up the show with a quick list of lightning round questions I do not prepare you for, but it's our chance to get you to get to know you a little bit. Are you ready?

Yeah, I'm ready.

I am a man built on habits, discipline, and rituals. So the first thing I wanted to ask you, I love my morning routine. What does a typical morning routine look like for John Lipton?

Well, every morning. So I belong to the Panera Coffee Sip Club. So every morning, as soon as Panera opens up, which is Monday through Saturday at 6:30, I grab a cup of coffee. I sit down and read the news. I read emails, I read coverage, opinion letters from, from that I get from some of these attorneys. And I just sit down for probably an hour and just, and just read that. And then, then I get to it.

I believe Panera Coffee is some of the most underrated coffee in America.

I concur. I mean, that's that hazelnut coffee.

Their hazelnut coffee is the most underrated cup of coffee in America.

What is it, $12.99 a month? $12.99.

Is that what it is for the membership? Okay.

Yeah. And then, you know, every time I order it says, well, you saved $1,000 so far. You know, sometimes I go 2, 3 times a day.

That's awesome. What do you do on a regular basis to keep your body moving? Do you exercise? And what are your— what is your exercise of choice if given the opportunity?

Well, not given the opportunity to actually do it. So I play pickleball probably every day for 1 to 2 hours, you know, whether it's, it's early, early in the morning, you know, I grab my, my, my coffee from Panera at 7 o'clock to 8 o'clock or 8:30. Maybe I'll play some pickleball. Every Sunday morning, I play lacrosse, still play lacrosse. Sunday mornings, from 9 to 11:30, it's open. So I play, you know, it's 18 and older. And then I go to the gym 2 or 3 times a week. And then I also cold plunge in my backyard.

I cold plunge and love everything I'm hearing right now. Sounds like you're, you're definitely into the competitiveness of sports, playing lacrosse and pickleball.

Yeah, just did the Ironman. I like part of the— what? Yeah, yeah, I did the 70.3.

Which one did you do?

The one in Haines, Florida.

Yeah, that's awesome, man. Yeah, I, uh, I did an Ironman Wisconsin 3 times, finished it twice. Yeah, I did the full one 3 times, finished it twice, DNF'd on the last one with a hernia. But, uh, mad respect to anybody who's doing that though. Those disciplines are hard— swimming, biking, running, full marathon.

That is legit.

Yeah, the one thing that saves you in the Wisconsin race though is the entire marathon is downtown. So for 26 miles, you have people cheering for you. That is a huge plus in the Wisconsin.

That's why I mean, kudos to you. I could never do it. I just, you know, my first time you're sitting there and you can't wear earphones and I've never, I was like, what am I gonna think about for first, for 5 to 6 hours? What am I, I don't even know what I'm gonna think about. I was like stressing out that, that stressed me out more than anything.

Yeah. Yeah. No, I, kudos to you, man. That, that is awesome. So cold plunge, Ironman, lacrosse, pickleball. So what I was going to ask you is if you had an afternoon to yourself, what are you doing?

I mean, again, you know, those, those are probably something competitive, something, something, one of those things, you know, gym, pickleball, lacrosse, something.

Uh, I wish I, I should have probably asked you this before our interview. I didn't know all this about you. This is awesome. Um, my last question. Books, podcasts. Is there anything you're listening to or reading right now that you would recommend?

Well, right now, I mean, as far as podcasts, I listen to, uh, Sean Ryan, which, you know, he has some, some really good— he's, you know, I, I don't listen to the podcasters for the podcasters. I listen to who they're interviewing.

Yes.

So like, that's all I care about, you know. I, I listened to Sean Ryan just, just interviewed a guy from Delta Force that was talking about, um, um, just the Havana— what was the Havana Syndrome when they were microwaving people?

And yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Um, he was talking about Pat Tillman, how he died, you know, the friendly fire, and what really, really happened in that case. That was super interesting.

I'll have to listen to that one.

Yeah, listen to that. I mean, sure. Yeah, it was amazing.

Yeah, I agree with you. The podcast is about the guest, not just the, the host. But a lot of those guys, it's like once you find one, others that are like that host tend to interview a lot of the same people, uh, so you ultimately start to listen to some of the same podcasts. I, I came upon Sean's just on a YouTube channel, like his video popped up once. I'm like, who's this guy? I'm like, oh, this is actually a really good podcast.

So, and even, even Rogan, you know, when he interviews some of those people.

Yep. And with Rogan, what I love is he can take somebody you might not think would be interesting, like a Hollywood celebrity, but they actually have a really good conversation. It's not just like, hey, what's life like as an actor, you know?

So he interviewed— Rogan interviewed, uh, D'Acrossey, uh, Tyson, Neil Tyson. I mean, that was— I, I think that guy's amazing. I mean, he— I think Rogan got mad at him because he he wouldn't shut up and he was trying to interrupt him and DeGrasse kept going on and on and on. It was a— and he's got a great personality for an astrophysicist. I mean, the guy's got a phenomenal personality.

Yeah, yeah. Well, John, it's been a pleasure having you, man. We actually went longer than I anticipated, so thank you. If you're tuning in, you know, I wanted to have John on because John has been to the finish line not once but twice. And John, you offer a lot of good lessons to insurance agency executives. uh, uh, for sure, who may be at that point where they're looking to get more resources, you know, sell to either retire, sell to access more resources, you name it. But there's a lot of things they need to make sure they're doing right, not only to build the agency to that point to have that opportunity, but things they should be doing when a deal is on the table to make sure they're making the right choice. So I want to thank you for taking the time today to be here.

Hey, I wanna, I wanna offer your, your audience, you know, anytime they want to talk, either shop or, or have questions, you know, I'm, I'm certainly more than happy to have a discussion about it. Um, you can look me up on LinkedIn.

I was gonna say, easiest way to get ahold of you, LinkedIn.

Yeah. Yeah. Get, get, get in touch with me, LinkedIn. More than happy to, to, to get on a call. And, you know, it's certainly been a pleasure speaking with you today. And, you know, I, I pre— I certainly appreciate the thoughtful questions.

You bet. John Lipton, everybody. Be good.

All right. Take care.