How Tom Camp has sold over $1.3M+ in sales in just 60 days | The Nikhil Sai Show 59

How would you like to learn the secrets of two Kama Club Award winners on how they have built successful online businesses from almost nowhere to now running multiple 7 and 8-figure businesses by following the simple fundamentals of life? And let's see how they have used the powerful funnel systems, processes, automation, and social media to help their business grow at a different pace. Let's dive into their journey to grasp the strategy, mindset, action plan of how they have done it from almost nowhere to the way up to 7 figures. We are going to uncover and pick their brains of the top performing entrepreneurs on this show, how they have done it and how you can do it too. You are listening to the Nikhil Sai, the host, and welcome to the Nikhil Sai Show. What's going on? What's going on everyone who is watching this show right now? Welcome back to the Nikhil Sai Show which is hosted by me, the Nikhil Sai. And guess what's going on today? We are back with another amazing 2 Comma Club interview. Excited, right? So this is going to be amazing journey, guys. Just make sure to stick around. This guy is crazy when it comes to real estate and marketing and consulting space. He's been into the industry from almost 15 years, and guess what? They did over $1.3 million in just 60 days. 60 days. Let me repeat that— $1.3 million in 60 days. So this is a very high scalable business where he has been into. And this guy is an amazing best-selling author. He's been a digital marketing expert for years right now, helping hundreds of companies scale to multiple six-figure levels. So guys, this is going to be crazy. In case if you're a business owner who is not doing the marketing right way, then this is literally going to blow up your mind. So make sure to stick around. So again, let's not waste any time and actually welcome Tom Camp, CEO at Tom Camp Consulting. Hey, Tom.

Hey, man. Thanks for having me on.

Absolutely, Tom. Pleasure to have you on this podcast today. We are really excited for the journey and all of the accomplishments you have done together, brother. This is so crazy. So, Tom, we've been seeing you for a long time and you've been literally that lit who is more about business, generating leads and scaling businesses, creating more processes and systems. So, Tom, can you please start with your backstory? Like, how did all of this crazy journey start for you?

Wow. Okay. It's paved with a lot more failures than it is successes. But that's kind of the role of the entrepreneur, right? The journey. My mark— the first time I got bit by the marketing bug. So I guess that my, my big origin story would be music, right? I am born and raised musician at the core. I play drums, bass, guitar, piano, sing. I've been writing songs for most of my life since I was 9 years old. I had a recording studio. And I started doing— I wanted to be a rock star in my, in my 20s, right, in my early 20s. So I started studying marketing. Back then it was the MySpace days, back when bread was a nickel and TV was in black and white. So I learned how to use digital marketing because I had a full-time job, so I couldn't just take my ass and throw it on it on a tour bus and go on tour. I had to work a Monday through Friday. So what I figured out was how to utilize MySpace and do some digital marketing practices on their pre, like, pay-per-click, you know, area, because that wasn't a thing yet. And how to actually take this band from zero plays to not being able to tour to— we did over, I think we did 1.8 million streams, something like that, 1.6 million streams in under a year. In New Jersey, we were like the fourth top streamed band. We typically went between number 4 and 5 that year. And I did all of it by just marketing, not being selfish, right? Like reaching out to people, talking to them, having a conversation. Back then on MySpace, you'd get comments or messages like, hey, can you check out my band? And it's like, we didn't do any of that shit. I just tried to build a personal connection with each person until it just kind of bubbled out. So I was like my first thing. But again, it was all the music. So then obviously I didn't become a rock star. You know, I recently started losing my hair. So now the only chemical romance that I have is with Rogaine. So yeah, I wanted to be I'm gonna be a rock star. And then when that didn't pan out, I was like, I'm gonna be a studio guy. I'm gonna open up a recording studio. So then I just kind of had a knack for marketing from watching, you know, big bands. Like, I always, I always bring up Metallica because I love watching the way that they work through the '80s and '90s and, you know, early 2000s. Because they're a marketing band. They're just, they've always been innovative in the marketing space, right? Like, they understand the business aspect of it. So I was paying attention to that stuff. I started running a studio and I moved down to Orlando, Florida, and I was working with this guy, Eddie Montilla, who worked on— he wrote Lil Wayne's Carter 3. He works with DJ Khaled, all these big people. And I thought I was just kind of showing up for a songwriting session. I didn't really know who he was or his backstory. It was an artist invited me to the songwriting session. So I'm a musician. I show up. Probably all hungover, you know, dirty, greasy hair. And I show up to this corporate building and I'm like, what, what, like, what am I doing here? Why is this place like corporate? So I get in the elevator, it's like 10 AM. And I'm like, who writes music at 10 AM? Like, that's unheard of. So we get out of the elevator and it's this guy named Pat Armstrong's building. He owned a record label. He signed like Leonard Skinner, Quiet Riot, like I think he worked with Backstreet Boys and NSYNC, like all these big people. So I immediately step out and there's like gold records all over the wall. And I was like, what the hell is this? Like, I just was so out of place. So I started working with these guys and we were working with this artist. And as I was listening to them talk about like, okay, what's the release plan? Because I was like, well, how are you going to release a song when it's done? What are we going to do? Stuff like that. And I kind of started injecting myself in there as like a marketing expert because I was like, look, I know how to grow a fan base, right? It was never about growing a business and how to grow a fan base. So this is probably back in 2014. And they say, man, like, you got some good ideas, you should come in, we're having a marketing meeting with this marketer who's flying in from California on Wednesday. Can you make it? I was like, sure. So I go to this meeting, and I'm sharing my ideas. And this guy pulls me aside. And he's like, how old are you? And I'm like, I'm like 20, I think I was like 25. So I'm like, yeah, I'm like 25. And he goes, are you doing marketing? I was like, no. And he was like, dude, there are people younger than you making like millions of dollars marketing online and you have a gift for it. Like you have a knack for it. You're really creative. And I was like, man, like I'm just a musician. Like, I don't know. And he's like, well, you should think about it. So on the car ride home, I was like, you know, being the musician, you're kind of always struggling, right? You're always— I think it was, I was on a coaching call the other night with Dan Henry and he had said like musicians are only broke because they spend all their money on gear, right? Like I have all this expensive equipment, but I'm eating frickin ramen. So I was thinking about it. And I was like, I could probably do marketing, I should give it a try. That guy planted the seed. Sorry for the long backstory, rags to riches.

Oh, it's amazing. Yeah.

Yeah. So I ended up, I'm on my way home. And I called my girlfriend. And I called my, my good friend Mark. And I was talking to both of them on the way home. And I was like, I tell you, like, this guy really planted a seed. But then I did something that I always do. I didn't take any action. Right? It just, it was the idea. I had the idea in 2014, I'm going to start doing marketing. So, I started watching YouTube videos. Derek Halpern, he had Social Triggers way back in the day. I started watching all that, binge watching it with like a notebook. Then I kind of hit rock bottom, had two pretty dark years where my girlfriend and I moved back to the US. Well, we moved back to Jersey from Florida. And if you've never been to Jersey, it's the only reason why we're trying to go to Mars, because Jersey just sucks that bad. It's just really cold. I just don't like it. I'm not a Jersey fan. So yeah, so we ended up moving back up there. And I just was not in a good, good headspace. And I was just trying to make ends meet. And I started playing out and singing at bars trying to get tips. And all of a sudden, my friend Melissa said, you should read Expert Secrets. By Russell Brunson. So I read that and I was like, this is crazy. Like, this thing is— this thing's got some really cool stuff. And like, it was like I learned like 80% out of that book. But it was that book and Tim Ferriss's 4-Hour Workweek. I read both of them like I think within the same 2 weeks. And that really changed everything for me because I realized like I'm learning and absorbing like 80% of these ideas. But it was a real gift because 20% of those books was validating what I kind of thought I knew. Right? And just being like, wow, like, here's people who think differently than me. Like Tim Ferriss talking about redefining a culture, right? Like actually taking a culture and redefining it. So when I read that, I was, I was blown away. And I went to my girlfriend and I said, listen, at the time, I really wanted to leave the US for a while. Since about 2010, I just kind of, I kind of not getting like all overly political and stuff like that. I just needed a break from America. I needed a break from the culture, the reality TV binge-watching, bickering back and forth about politics. I was just like, I need a break. So I talked to my girlfriend and I was like, what if we move to Buenos Aires or we move to Thailand? Uh, we can save on cost of living. We're spending like a ton of money to live in a state that we don't like, to work jobs that we hate, to barely get by, make ends meet. Like, let's, let's do something crazy. Let's just do it. So she said, I'm open to it, but you typically live in a fantasy world. Like, I'm very quick to, to kind of dream big and then be like, we can do this. And then I'm— I can be unrealistic in a sense. So she was like, I just want to see this to be a little bit more realistic before we leave the country, uh, that we've never left the country. So I talked to a friend, my friend Gabby. She was living in Thailand at the time, and she was like, you should come to Thailand. Like, the cost of living is great. The culture is amazing. The food's wonderful. Like, you're going to love it. So I went to my girlfriend. I sat her down, and she just could not see how it was possible. So she said, I don't— because I said, oh, I said, I want to leave in 90 days. And she was like, you want to leave in 90 days? Like, are you out of your mind? Right? Are you crazy? We can't do that. And I said, well, the longer we stay here, the more money we spend. And I said, we can sell off my gear, we could sell off the, um, you know, we sell off my recording studio, we could sell off our cars, we can just do it and we'll pack and go with 2 cats and we'll, we'll do it. So anyway, um, not to, not to belabor you with a huge long story, but I sat her down and I showed her the numbers. I crunched the numbers and I said, look, when would you like to leave? I'd like to leave in 6 months. And I said, okay, if we leave in 3 months, here's what we can do. If we leave in 6 months, we will save negative $638. So we will dig ourselves in a hole with this cost of living the longer we stay here. So once I made the numbers make sense to her, she was like, wow, you're right, like we could do this. Because I showed her like the difference. If we go and move to Thailand, we can go stay in a condo for like $300 a month. We're, we're spending $1,600 a month now. That's not even including cars and insurance and everything like that. We can take that money and we can essentially go move to the other side of the world where no one's going to bother us. No one's going to call us and say, you know, hey, it's, uh, you know, it's your third cousin's freaking birthday gender reveal on Saturday. And, you know, no distractions. So we just said, we're gonna go and we're gonna treat this like a college education. So we went overseas, and that was in February of 2017. I was in Bangkok for 5 months. The Hangover is a documentary. They did not embellish anything about Bangkok at all. In fact, it's— it was 5 years ago. I think I'm still hungover a little bit. So we had a great time in Bangkok, but we ended up moving to Chiang Mai and we said, look, let's just sit down and study everything about marketing. We learned how to build websites. We learned how to do SEO. We learned Google Ads, Facebook Ads, uh, how to build YouTube channels, rank, rank YouTube videos, stuff like that. Like, we just dove into learning every single aspect that we could of digital marketing. In order to be valuable to other people. And when I first got to Thailand, I kind of had this mentality of like, fake it till you make it kind of thing, right? Because I'm seeing everybody come up in these ClickFunnels groups. And to be honest with you, like, so many people are just so full of shit. And every time I try to do it, it just feels so disingenuous because I just, I can't take another, you know, I was, I was homeless yesterday and now I'm a millionaire. Like, it's just It's too— it's not authentic. I just don't feel the authenticity. So I said, you know what, let's just do an agency because it's gonna feel more— I can earn money, I can learn more, and then I could transition into coaching other people and teaching other people how to actually make money. But I want to succeed first. I don't want to fake it before I make it. I want to learn it before I earn it, right? So we spent time learning. So when I first moved to Thailand, I thought that I was going to still do music production and started mixing records like remotely. And I found that I hated it if I wasn't in the room with the artist actually producing and building a relationship with the artist and the song. I just was a guy pressing buttons and I just didn't like it. It just wasn't for me. So I ended up building a website and then I learned how to build a website and then somebody saw the website and somebody else said, can you build me a website? And I thought, what is this person's problem? Why do they need this website? And I sat down and I, and I was like, you know what, they need this website. Business owner has one of two problems. They either don't have enough clients or enough revenue or leads, or they don't have enough time. This client could use about 20% marketing, but 80% of his issues was that he didn't have time. He wasn't in the 21st century with his business yet. He wasn't doing digital applications and he wasn't you know, doing any automation on his end, any nurturing, any anything. Like, he was working out of spreadsheets and notebooks. So I realized that he's going to make a lot of money from my efforts. So that was when I first said, you know what, I don't want to charge based on hour. I want to charge based on value. And I charged $6,307 for the website. It took me 10 hours, and I made more money in that 10 hours than I did the entire first year we were in Thailand. And that's when I was like, I need to do marketing. I need to just throw myself in this more and just go at it full force. So since then, I tried a million things and failed. I mean, I've tried so many different, different business ideas. But that particular And that's, that was my particular kind of journey was it went to the website and then I just started doing agency work and coaching, consulting. And since then, I've gotten tremendous results for clients. And now we don't live in a shoebox for $200 a month anymore in Thailand. Now we live in a 4,000 square foot house, which for anyone in the rest of the world, it's about 400 square meters with a private pool, jacuzzi right on the river, like big beautiful house in Thailand. And yeah, that's kind of the rags to riches story.

Wow, Tom, so many learning curves and so many ups and downs. And you are a real entrepreneur, like you never give up, just like trying the new thing and just making sure you are consistent, right? That's really awesome. And the craziest part is the first client you charged $6,000 and above, like, which is freaking crazy. A lot of people get afraid or even don't even think about doing that type of charge, but That's, that's beautiful. I think there is so much learning. Absolutely.

And you know what, if I, if I can, if I can, if anybody is out there struggling about, about how to charge, right? So I'm going to tell you about another client I have. So I have another client where I do an SEO campaign and it's $25,000 for this SEO campaign. Um, actually have two clients, um, but I'll talk about this other one. So she's got an SEO campaign for $25K. Um, that SEO campaign has earned $500,000 in revenue in probably about 8 months. Now, do you think that if I was to charge this person a low-ticket cost, a low-ticket price for that SEO campaign, if I charged a grand, do you think that you could get the $500,000 in revenue results? You can't. You have to charge to value. And in order to provide the value, you have to charge more. Because if I was charging $1,000, which I've made the mistake of doing so much, I've done like, you know, the low-ticket stuff for so long, and you end up stapling yourself to low-ticket clients who have low-ticket problems. They try to get you— I've had people call me in the middle of the night. I had one lady call me and say, I can't, I can't figure out how to get my, my— she needed a marketing brochure and we did all of her social media management. I can't get my printer to print my brochure. Like, why the hell are you calling me to help you tech out your— right? Like, so we've all had nightmare clients in the past. Um, so yeah, so it's, it's all about charging to value, right? And, um, if I could even embellish on that, like, my friend, my friend Tricia got on the phone with somebody recently and she was gonna do an offer and she gave him an offer. She said, I have 3 packages, one's $5,000. One's $20,000 and one's $100,000. And they said, well, I think I'm interested in the $100,000. So what she does is she helps them build their messages, their messaging, helps them build their funnel, their copy, everything like that. She helps them integrate their software systems, like, into the— for operations. And then the one thing that she said that really stood out to me was she said, I am friends with one of the best tax attorneys in Australia. He's a corporate tax attorney. I think she— she's a corporate tax attorney. She finds ways to like uncover all this hidden money in your business through your taxes and can help you to set up your business like for success. And she said, and she's really expensive. I just build her package into my $100,000 offer. So she's like, rather than me trying to figure out everything, if I charge enough, I can give enough value by pulling in the right people into a team to actually provide enough enough value.

So yeah, that's, that's 100% true. And Tom, like, this is amazing. A lot of agencies and marketing companies should really grasp this entire learning, and they shouldn't be crumbling about like, hey, we have free time, how about picking 10 shitty clients and, you know, stick around with them for 6 months and make a couple of thousand dollars? They should be getting through more prosperous mindset, which is exactly what you mentioned— charging more, bringing in the right people. Because if you charge less, you don't have enough capital to pull in the right people, so the output will be just as what they paid, right? So that's, that's real true, Tom. And we will be covering a lot of stuff about how to scale agencies and stuff like that because you've been there, you have been with that bad clients and currently working with amazing clients. So we'd love to learn that journey. And Tom, you're one of the craziest guys when it comes to generating leads, especially when it comes to real estate businesses and loan market businesses and stuff like that, right? So technically in 2021, it seems a little kind of costly when some people run like lead ads and stuff like that, right? So we would love to hear more about like, what do you think is the best lead generation strategy for real estate businesses to create their own lead pool in 2021?

So essentially what you want to do is, and I actually have two businesses that are kind of related. I have one business that I have a partnership with, actually I have a few businesses, but the one business I have a partnership with my friend Dan, and that is Roofing Marketing Guys where we do roofing marketing. And then my other is, is the Tom Camp Consulting. And right now we're running a campaign on real estate leads where one real estate agent went from like $50,000 in commissions to within a year going to $300,000 in commissions. And the reason why I'm bringing up the roofing company is because the roofing lead gen side and the, the real estate lead gen side, it's very similar in my approach. And my approach is I look at the big elephants in the room like Zillow. Realtor.com, House, HomeAdvisor, all those kinds of brands. And I realized that they are not resource companies, they're marketing companies. So because they are marketing companies who have, by the way, hundreds upon hundreds of millions of dollars of not only revenue coming in that they use, but also investor money and venture capital money, their whole business model is dependent on building up a marketplace that can find a way to connect leads with customers, whether it's mortgage customers or investors or real estate agents or contractors or solar panel installers or, you know, anything like that. All of these websites kind of do the same thing, and the reason why they dominate the market is because they're marketing companies that charge a premium price for a lead, and then they give that lead to everyone under them who's willing to pay it. And then on the back end of that, I'm sure you know this from being in tech, on the back end of that, even when that lead's done, then they then sell the data, the lead list, and then that list gets unloaded. So by the time the, the person who bought the lead gets on the phone with somebody, it's shitty because they've already bothered so much and they're dead cold. So what I do is I approach by looking at the real estate agent by saying, listen, like, let's build you your own mini Zillow, your own mini Realtor.com, or a roofer. Your own mini house, your own mini HomeAdvisor. Yeah, it is HomeAdvisor. Yeah, your own mini HomeAdvisor. And what we want to do is we want to essentially take a funnel, find out the best kind of traffic to do, because that's the other thing I'm sure you've heard in the marketing world. Everything's all about like, this is dead, right? This amazing thing that's worked forever is dead and now the new trending thing is here. And the truth is, is that everything has its place. I've done so much marketing in so many industries. I know that like SEO for most real estate agents is a waste of money for most real estate agents unless they can really get in front, um, of their competition and they're in a city where there's not as much competition. They could figure out a way, or they have enough money to actually invest in it, they could handle it. It's not a good lead source. But like, I've done SEO for solar companies and it's amazing. It's like absolutely amazing depending on their location. So yeah, it's, it's— there's so many different— so what we do is— sorry, I'm kind of getting all over the place. What we do is we try to figure out how to build that little mini Zillow and fill it with traffic. And what kind of traffic? Facebook ads typically is what I go for with a chatbot in order to nurture them. But then what I like to do is set up the automation path on the back end of our software so that it nurtures them automatically. And then for the agents that like really want to scale and have the money to invest, I hook them up with like an ISA, which is just like a phone staff, right? So they pick up the leads or they pick up the phone, they qualify the leads, and then by the time you get the leads, they're qualified and ready to go.

So yeah, I think that's beautiful. I think that's going to remove a lot of things on the table from the business owner and actually delegate the marketing side of it and calling side of it. And wow, that's, that's amazing strategy to create their own lead pool. I think this kind of business strategy can be literally implemented in most of the businesses, not just real estate in general, right? So they should be thinking about like, what my competition is doing, where is my ideal client, what traffic source should I be using, and just create their own not relating or trying to partner up with these top companies or pumping out the leads to 100,000 other people who are just like you because the lead quality is completely down when it reaches you. Exactly.

That's awesome. And it is a bit of a numbers game. Like you need a lot of leads and you need to nurture them because you're always going to have, especially in real estate, you're going to have people who are just browsing and you have to sift through those leads. And then we let the automation do the heavy lifting, right? Like just because I have a lead that comes in, Like, okay, I'll give you an example on the roofing one. One of the things that I do on the roofing side is they'll go do an inspection, and if it's a roof repair, well, I know that that person in the next 1 to 5 years, they need a new roof. They just got it repaired. It's just natural within the next 1 to 5 years. So, excuse me, sorry, a little bit of a hiccup. Um, so then what I do is I set an automation sequence for 5 years, and it's not a complex one. It's just a text message every you know, every 6 months to 8 months, alternating between text message and emails. It just says like, hey, you know, it's me, Mr. Roofer. I just want to make sure that you're still happy. Uh, let me know if there's any issues. I, you know, come out, take a look, whatever. Like, just something that's, that's friendly and conversational so that when they need that roof replacement, they're going to think of Mr. Roofer. And the same thing for real estate side. Like, sometimes it takes a year, you know, to get a, a deal closed. So it's just It's a part of it. So it's a part of, you know, the marketing side. And to talk a little bit about like another lead strategy too is all about social, right? Like, so one of the things I like to do is I like to coach my business owners on how to actually use social media to attract the right people, because that's just, that's something that's just missing. Either people buy like some, some, what's it, what's like not the scripts, like swipe files, like social media swipe files where they just go like, here's my canned emails that aren't personal at all. Or here's my social media posts that look like every other one that every other real estate agent's doing. And in between that, here's my bullshit political opinions littered all over my Facebook that's alienating 50% of my audience. So what I like to do is I like to coach them into like how to actually use their social media with purpose to actually attract the right clients too, so that this way, while you have an organic lead source coming, you also have your, you know, your paid lead source coming, whether it's Facebook ads or Google ads, YouTube ads, whatever. And then on top of that, it's also about building out the automation and the nurturing in order to get referrals and in order to get reviews so that you start popping up more. So it's kind of like an all-in— again, it's like building a little mini Zillow, right? Like, there's not— Zillow doesn't have one lead source. It's, it's all about figuring out what are the best lead sources for you, how to implement them based on your budget and your package, and Most of my sales aren't cold customers to new sales. Almost all of my sales are me selling an existing customer on something I did that worked and saying, all right, now take that revenue and scale. Like, let's do the next thing. Let's add the next feature. Let's add the next. So that's kind of a lot of, yeah, what I would recommend for— Yeah, absolutely.

And that's amazing, Tom. Like a lot of business owners, they still kind of do that robotic scripts over their business and, you know, try to do client attractions in a different way where it's more like a personal conversation. And they should really understand that the message matters. You know, the post you put out, the email you write, the SMS campaign you run really matters. You can't really duplicate from a course or a template you got into your business and expect clients buying stuff from you. That's never gonna happen. There needs to be a lot of personalization coming in. Yeah, and I'm amazing.

I'm in Dan Henry's coaching program and he's been talking to us about like doing sales calls. And one of the things that I love about his sales script is it's not a script, it's like bubbles that say like, okay, now this stage you're trying to get this information. So like where most, most sales training I've done, it's like now you have to pull out the piece of paper and say, okay, like, why are you calling today? And like stuff like that. And it just Just— and I know this from being like, like the musician, right? Like a singer who steps on stage in front of a lot of people has to know how to be personable, right? And I always say like copywriting and songwriting are so similar. A songwriter's job is to elicit an emotional response from an audience in as few words as possible. And a copywriter's job is the same exact thing— elicit an emotional response from the reader in as few words as possible. So it's a chorus and a headline are very similar. So that's why I really, I enjoy the copywriting stuff too, because it lets me get like my creativity flowing because that's what it's all about is kind of figuring out how to get into the reader's head and lead them to what you're trying to lead them to. So yeah, actually, if I could, you'll, you'll get a kick out of this. So by the way, sorry, I know this call's all over the place. I have ADD like crazy. So Now I'm gonna talk about like a closing thing that I just did the other day that I think you'll really like. Oh, actually I have it on my board right here. I wonder if I can just slide that in. Is that reversed or?

Yeah, it's perfect. Yeah, we can see that.

Hold on, I'll slide over a little bit. All right, just so you could see the math. So I was on a— I gotta get it in the frame. There we go. So all right, my math is frigged up here because I'm an idiot with numbers, but Um, so I was on a call the other day and the guy does like a roof cleaning. He does like a certain kind of— not power washing because apparently it destroys your roof— some kind of soft washing. But he charges a grand per. And he kept talking to me about like how he didn't have any— um, he was like, I don't really need a lot of money because my overhead's low. I inherited my house free and clear. My business expenses are really low. And I said to him like, Just because you don't need more doesn't mean you don't deserve more. So like shift that mindset out right now. Like it's good that you don't need more. That's wonderful. When I first moved to Thailand, I was like, I just need enough to eat a dollar bowl of noodles a day and I'm a happy camper. And like, it's no, your value is not determined by your needs. Your value is determined by what you give. If you can give more value than do it. So anyway, so he was telling me that he was able to do, he was able to service all of South Jersey and all of Philadelphia, which is like a gigantic area. So most people that I work with that do those kinds of things, I was like, dude, most people just work in like 1 or 2 counties. Like, you're talking about doing, you know, half of one state and then the biggest city in Pennsylvania. So like, there's a lot of business. So I asked them, I said, I said, let's— oh, so I was asking all these questions. I'm running through the sales script, and I noticed halfway through the call, I went, you know what, he believes everything I'm saying to him. He believes me when I tell him that running an ad campaign and building his own mini HomeAdvisor and all this stuff, he believes me that that's what he needs to succeed, but he doesn't believe that he can do it. And I'm noticing that it's his— it's— he's not not believing in the product or the service or the offer, he's not believing in himself. So I have to fundamentally figure out by the end of this call how to change his mindset around it. So I started thinking about it, and once I realized that, I asked him, I said, listen, let me— let's take you out of the mix for a second. Let's ask about If there's a competing company, do you— how many jobs do you think that they could handle with 2 to 3 crews? And he said, um, because he has 2 crews, so he was saying he can handle about 5 jobs a day. So I was like, how many days can you work? He was like, 6. Sorry, let's just pretend it's 5. So let's pretend that there is a competitor out there and they have 2 crews. How many jobs a day can they handle? He said, 5 jobs. I said, I said, what do they charge? He said, a grand to $1,200. I said, all right, let's keep the math easy, we'll do $1,000. $1,000 a job, 5 jobs a day is— and this is where I think I screwed up my math— 5 jobs a day is $20K. No, that's $25K, right?

Yeah, actually it's $25K.

Yeah, I, I'm horrible at math. So I was like, all right, so let's say that they can do $1,000 a job, 5 jobs a day, and if they can service all of South Jersey and Philadelphia, do you think they could do that? And he said, I think they could do that Not only do I think they could do it, I think they could easily do it because with 2 crews and the demand for the service in that large of an area, they could. I said, good. So let me ask you, if they could be successful, why can't you do it? And he goes, you know what, you're right, I can. I said, congratulations. And he said, for what? I said, you just, you just admitted how easy it is to make $1.2 million a year. And he was like, you know, how the F did you get to that? I said, well, think about it, $1.2 million a year Uh, divided by $25K a month, 5 jobs a day at $1,000 is $1.2 million. So if you believe that you can earn $1.2 million in a single year, or if you believe a competitor can earn $1.2 million in a single year, which you just told me was easy to do, it would be easy for them to do it, why can't you do it? And he was like, holy shit, dude, you're right, like, I can do this. So that was like, it was just a phone call I had last week, and I'm probably going to coin up, maybe call call it like the mindset close or something like that. But I was on the phone with him, I was listening. This is the important part about these sales calls too. It's not about reading script and then, you know, and this book said this. Like, I was listening to him and I could hear that his issue wasn't with the product, the service, the industry, or anything. The issue was in believing in himself that he could do it. So once I showed him the path, he believed, he believed that he could do it. So It's a mindset.

Yeah, I think this is really amazing, Tom. Thank you so much for showing us behind the scenes and how you're literally doing it. And again, it comes down to the— as a company, it comes down to the either they don't trust you or your product or service, or they don't trust themselves, right? And a lot of companies, especially as a marketing company, if the client doesn't trust themselves, they'll be like, okay, have a great day. But you really turned the way around and actually fixed his mindset so that he can be like, wow, I just want to do it because I know what's the possibility. I think the way you, you know, shifted the conversation very smoothly, that's just beautiful. I think this is so much valuable for the audience who are actually listening. And Tom, let's get into the next quick question. So you've been scaling multiple companies, and one of the companies you worked with, you actually literally, literally scaled to over $1.3 million in 60 days. So would you mind giving us a glimpse of how you have done it in a nutshell?

Absolutely. So that was my one client, um, who I worked with. And you know what, I'm going to tie this into something I always watch. If anyone wants to hear the greatest thing in the world, just watch Bob Proctor's seminar. It's 10 hours, You Were Born Rich. I listened to that seminar pretty much once a week while I was working for 2 years, and my entire life changed, like just turned around like that. Because I was finding it was referenced in all of these, in all of these marketing books, like old school marketing books because it's a seminar from like '87, I think the year I was born. And he says in there, there's a season for sowing and a season for reaping, and you can't— you don't do both in the same season. And that website I told you about was my client that I worked with. I did that website. I figured out how to solve his problem, and then I continued to work with him. I continued to help him just do a little bit of marketing. Now, he was in the investment space. I think the year before he did something like $750K, something like that. And within the 2 months of launching his website with a light marketing campaign, we figured out how to attract people who wanted to buy or sell their homes, rent out those homes, or flip them. And he did 1 point whatever it was in, in 60 days. And then we continued to work together for a good 4 years. And I think since— I don't remember if— I don't remember if he's a client who did $4 million or $7 million in the years because I have two, but he either did $4 million or $7 million. Like, he did a lot of freaking money in the last 4 years. So once— the really funny thing about that is that once I did that for him, right, and I think that what I was charging him outside of the website was very small. I'd known the guy for a good 10 years when I first worked in the title insurance industry, and I'll never forget, he came into the office. One of the funniest things was right around the crash of '08 '07. So I think he came in, I think he bought his first investment property either, I think it was '08. And he came in the office and we worked with him on his first transaction. I was like his title agent. So I was talking to him for probably a good 2, 3 months as he was trying to short sell this property. So we'd built a little bit of rapport. So I knew that when he came in for closing, like, wow, this is great. By the way, am I allowed to curse on this if I quote him?

Yeah, no problem. You're okay.

Just making sure. Any little ears, close them. So yeah, so he actually, so he comes out of closing, or he comes to closing, and he signs the document, he comes out, and I said, man, congratulations. Like, congrats. I know how hard you've been working on this. And he said, the fuck are you congratulating me for? I'm in debt. I just thought that was so funny. Just like, wow. Yeah, he's right. He's now in debt. But it was his first investment property. So I'd known him for a while from my title years of working with him. So we built rapport and trust. Then I started working with him for 4 years on the back end of doing his marketing and his website maintenance and stuff like that. So there was more trust built there, and we were going to start a software company together. And I, I saw what other wholesalers were doing in the wholesale and real estate investment space, and I called him up one day and I said, listen, Uh, I've been working with you for a long time. I have an idea. You could tell me to go pound sand if you want, because I really want to do this, but I don't want to move back to New Jersey to do it. What do you say that we start a second real estate investment company? I handle marketing, you handle operations. Just clean-cut, plain and simple. I'll run the Google ads, Facebook ads, build the website, SEO, do the YouTube videos, the whole nine. You handle the calls when they come in. When it needs to be fixed, you, you know, hire the crews. And what do you say we just do a partnership that way and 50/50? And he was like, I'm so glad you called me. I literally was thinking about this this week. I was thinking about calling you and doing the same thing. I was going to say we should do wholesale. And I said, we should do wholesale flips, rentals, whatever. So we talked about that. So he was my original client that I did that. I got the result for him and I proved my worth to him so much that I was then able to come to him and say, less of a listen, here's— because I could have went to him and said, hey, do you want to hire me for marketing? But instead I was like, you know what, I think I'm ready to start taking a piece of things, right? Start building businesses, not just doing it for other people, but actually starting to build. The way I look at it is like, it's like a side hustle, so to speak, or retirement. Um, but anyway, so long story short, we started our company, quickhomebuyersnj.com. We purchased a property off of $2,000 of Google ad spend. We just flipped that property. It closed Friday, so closed 3 days ago, and we made $60,000, I think about— I can actually pull it up, but yeah, about $63,000 off of the property on our very first flip from a Google ad. Now, had I had gone to him and said, listen, 'Will you pay me a few thousand dollars a month to run your ads and hopefully this, this, and that?' Like, no. I went to him and I said, 'Let me— because I'm an equity owner in the, in the business, I'm gonna really go above and beyond for it.' Like, we have a kick-ass website, we got some awesome video testimonials and all kinds of shit and all kinds of stuff. Um, so I was able to put more into it because of that. And had, had he had started the investment company and paid me my fee for SEO and paid me my fee for Google Ads and Facebook ads and YouTube and yada, yada, yada, it would've ended up being a tremendous operating expense where with this way, I'm able to, we don't have to put as much into the company and I'm able to get a 50% ownership equity stake in the company in the end. And that's because of the value that I bring on the marketing side. Right. Um, and it's funny cause I was actually just talking to a friend recently and he said, he was like, yeah, like, you're so lucky, right? Because this guy is tremendously successful and now you're about to flip your first property. And I said, you know what, you're right, I am lucky. I'm very lucky. I'm very blessed. But don't discount the fact that he can't do what I do and I can't do what he does. Those are the best partnerships in the world because I don't know how to do what he does at all. I don't know that side of the business even a little bit. And if I throw a Google ad or an SEO term at him, he has no idea what I'm talking about. It's like the perfect, you know, like kind of symbiotic or symbiotic business relationship. So yeah, so that's the story of how we did that. We ran the funnel, we acquired a couple properties, flipped them, and like, so getting the award for it was pretty hard too. And I remember I was telling Dan Henry the other day like about the award. He was like, they gave you one for real estate? Like, are you freaking kidding me? And I'm like, well, wait a second, it's not just the sale of real estate for the million dollars, right? Because it's really not a lot of real estate revenue. There's a transaction minimum. We had to do 40 flips and rentals in order to get there. And again, it's like, so on one hand, it's easy to get it right. If you go into a business that has high margin, high ticket, stuff like that, you can get the award fairly quickly. But there is a transaction minimum. So you have to make sure that you can equate that properly. So yeah, so that's kind of the story about how we did that over the million in 60 days.

Wow, that's, that's really amazing, Tom. Thank you so much for sharing amazing stuff. I think this is really adding a lot of value for business owners. And the key learning from the entire thing which you mentioned is always have a business partner who cannot do stuff you do in a way better way than what you can actually do. I think that, that creates a literally perfect partnership because most of the time people do this mistake of picking up a partner who's very similar to them and then they just split up very soon because they'd be like, yeah, I can do what he's doing, he's not adding value. But when you're picking up a person who is opposite to what you do and he cannot figure out what you're doing and you cannot figure out what to do he does, that kind of brings so much accountability on each other, and that builds up the perfect partnership. That's really awesome, Tom.

I mean, you just saw me do math. Like, I'm, I'm literally the worst. I have to be the worst mathematician in the marketing space on the planet. The worst. But I don't handle that. I don't handle that shit because it's not, it's not my strength.

So absolutely, I, I believe you're more like the strategy kind of guy, but thinking the customer mindset and creating the copy part, figuring out the journey, and numbers will be maybe handled by your team. That's, that's really awesome, Tom. So let's get to the next question, Tom. And you have been actually running an agency successfully and, you know, being into partnership with your marketing knowledge and help hundreds of clients to build their own marketing messages perfectly, right? So when it comes to an agency, like, the number one problem most agencies have is more like having that consistent high-ticket clients into the pipeline. So we'd love to hear your two cents on how to acquire high-ticket clients as a marketing company.

So the first thing is to provide so much value to your current clients and have an upsell pattern. Because again, most of my sales are me doing one campaign for them and upselling them on the next thing. I like to think of myself as like a customer acquisition specialist, right? So like if you ever seen Shark Tank, Kevin O'Leary, Mr. Wonderful. The first question he asked, they get on the rug and they do their pitch, and then he says, what does it cost you to acquire a customer? And the reason why he asked that is because he knows as an investor, as a marketer, as an operator, he can figure out how to scale revenue if they know what it costs to acquire a customer. Because now he knows, okay, if it costs $5 to get a customer and the average customer value is $50, I can put this much in the handling, the scaling of the operations, this much into the marketing, and this much in the into, um, you know, the growth and things like that. So what I like to do is I like to sit with a company, figure out one— I'd like to figure out all the lead sources, present them with, look, why don't we build all of them for you up front? Just go get financing and let's do this thing. Uh, if they don't want to do that and they're still a little nervous, I go, okay, let's do one lead source and let's do something that pays out right away. So like, I think about like Facebook ads and Google ads, that's money now. Like, you could turn on an ad and you can get paid back for that ad tomorrow. By the end of the day depending on your product. But SEO, it's money later. It's like an investment bank account. You got to put money into it for it to grow and over the long term and things like that. So I typically do a money now strategy, then I upsell them on building out some more automations, figuring out how to get more time back, upsell them on another lead source. So I typically will do like, here's Facebook ads, and then, okay, let's add Google Ads, let's do SEO, let's start investing, let's do this. And the whole time I track it in, in an excuse me, in our software so that I know, okay, this lead source has made this much revenue, therefore they should be able to, uh, reinvest a certain percentage in order to bring on another lead source, another lead source, another lead source. And that's how you get out of this, like, because a lot of people just rely on referrals, right? Word of mouth. And like, your head hits a ceiling with that. That's how you bust through that ceiling, because referral marketing is not scalable and you don't control it. At all. So yeah, that's kind of like— and not say referrals aren't great. Referrals are important. I think you should build automation practices within your business to try to get referrals. You should always be trying to get referrals, but it should be like bonuses. Referrals are like bonuses. It shouldn't be the lifeblood. So yeah, so how to get clients as a marketing company: be valuable, put yourself out there, don't lie, like don't be full of shit. My clients love when I get on the phone with them and I say to them sometimes, like, they sometimes they laugh at me, because like I just did a Google ad campaign with a guy the other day or a month ago. And I said, listen, I'm going to be honest with you with the traffic that I'm seeing in that city. I don't know if this is going to be worth it. And he was just like, really? Like, you don't? Every other person I talked to said it's going to be great. I said, of course, because they're trying to sell you. Like, I've known you for a while. I'm not going to— because he already works with me. And I said, look, let's do this. And if it doesn't work, then it just failed and we just we'll move on to something else. So we did it and it tanked. There was no traffic, no traffic in the city at all. It was like, I think he got like 5 leads in a month. So I was like, okay, like you, you broke even or maybe, maybe lost $200, something like that. Like, don't continue. And it's that easy. It's honest, right? So whereas other clients where I work with them and I know like almost immediately I can look at the business and say, Okay, like this is going to be really successful or this is worth trying because it could be successful, but I'm always honest about it. Um, as far as like giving somebody not a bunch of fluff of just saying like, yeah, be valuable and stuff like that. Uh, getting clients, I would say run ads into a case study or video sales letter. Like what I do is I run it into a, just a VSL. It's 13 minutes. I explain why Zillow and HomeAdvisor and all those guys are like a wolf in sheep's clothing, how they're a marketing company, how they make their money, how it's unethical, and how we can do it for you. And then I get them to book a call, and then my nurture sequences are just a bunch of testimonial videos from clients that have worked with me previously where I do like case study interviews and stuff like that. So like I'm nurturing them, and then I get them on the call, and then I run them through the sales script, and then I figure out what are their exact problems What's the solution I believe I have? And I customize the offer at the end of the phone call, and that's it.

Wow, that's, that's beautifully articulated, Tom. I think you literally, in a nutshell, nailed it on how to actually acquire clients and the best way to, you know, continue giving results to your existing clients and keep on selling the packages. Because it's a win-win. You're actually creating— you're making your client more money and you're charging more for your service at the same time because they have they have that ability to make more and give you more without any trouble. But if you just keep on asking more without delivering anything, they would be skeptical to continue. That's, that's really awesome, Tom.

And Tom, you know what, it's job security too. When my, when my, like, at the end of the month with my clients, I point to the revenue figures in the software. Did you make this much? If you pay me right now— I don't actually say that, that would be bad. But you know, it's just pay me. Did you earn money? Great. Yes or no? Wonderful. Here's the invoice. Next, next month. And then if they didn't, then we stop. I go find somebody who, who I can help, right? So it's just, it, it all depends. So yeah, um, one of the things with acquiring clients as a marketing company, you do want to be careful. You want to acquire the right clients and you want to make sure that you have systems in place, um, for if they fail and it's not your fault. Like with my Google ad campaign, right? We failed. It's not my fault, but it is my fault because the traffic wasn't there. Um, but I've run marketing campaigns for people where, like, and I've just had to be matter of fact with them. I had one guy get on the phone with me and he said— now granted, we have a software that we offer that tracks everything, CRM, records the phone calls, everything like that. So I'm able to see their activity, um, to track the revenue, to track, you know, stuff like that. This one guy called me asking for a refund because his leads weren't good, and I go in the software and He's calling them back 5 days later and he's like, these leads don't work. And I was like, no, man, you don't work because if you were working, you call them right away. So like, you need to make sure that you're vetting the right clients and you want to have those systems in place, which is why, like, a lot of real estate agents, they're busy, they're, they're showing houses, they're on the phone with clients, mortgage brokers, yada, yada, yada. That's why I love the higher ticket service that we offer, which is here's the lead source built for you. Here's filling it with traffic, and then here's the phone staff to qualify the leads for you, um, because they don't always get back to the leads right away. So yeah, it's important to take that into account.

That's, that's really awesome, Tom. I think you're, you're really nailing down on how to actually build systems and processes. And really, I've seen marketing agencies who crumble around when clients ask for a refund. But if you have like a system which actually tracks everything that the client is doing while you're doing your own stuff Right? It's about you fix the marketing piece and he should fix the business piece. And if you have a KPI to track what they're doing, you can really finger point and say, hey dude, I've done my work and you're not doing your work. And again, it's on your way, right? That's really awesome. And I think a lot of agency owners should actually digest this fact that when something is going wrong, it's not always your fault. It's sometimes a mistake on the client's end and you should be really able to track that.

But you know when it's your fault? When you're not putting systems in place to track them because that's where I was. I had an SEO campaign with a guy in New Jersey and I love this guy. Like I just, I love him. I've been working with him for like 3 or 4 years. He was one of my first cold prospects I called. I was like really defeated one day. I lost the last $500 job that I had while we were living in Thailand. The guy was at douche, but I lost the job and I was really upset. How did I end up here? We're rock bottom. We don't have any money. This— I was depending on this $500. I needed it. Um, and this guy just screwed me. And I called my friend and he said, listen, um, are you gonna complain about it? You're gonna go fix the problem. Get off the phone with me and go sell somebody. And he like gave me that kick in the ass. And I got on Craigslist and I ended up selling this guy a website. Um, this guy's from— he's from Staten Island, New York. And I'm from Jersey. So the way we talk to each other in the Northeast of the US, it's— there's a reason why New Yorkers and people from New Jersey aren't really welcome anywhere else in the world. So like, we're very crass, matter of fact. In fact, my case study with him, if you want to see something really funny, I ask him, what is— and again, excuse the language— I say, what is the— what were the results after working with me? And he goes, you know what, I can have steak whenever the Kai want. I got that on, on video. It's funny. But anyway, I was working with him, but I wasn't tracking like what his SEO campaign was doing outside of just the standard stuff, clicks and form submissions and, and phone calls. But the phone calls weren't being recorded. I wasn't tracking what was happening to the customer afterwards. And if I'm not tracking as a marketing company, you better believe that the contractor is not tracking, tracking as a contractor. They're a contractor, they're not a software engineer. So once I realized that, I put a system in place. I was doing SEO for him for like $800 a month. And he was like, man, I don't think it's working. I think I'm going to cancel. And I said to him, I just built the system because I think that it is working. I just don't think that we're tracking it properly. That's on me. So here's what I'm going to do for you. I'm going to do it for free for 3 months. Alright, so I'm going to do the work for free for 3 months, and we're going to track it. "If at the end of the campaign it works, not only are we gonna keep going, but I'm gonna double the price on you." And he laughed and he was like, "What a Jersey bargain." Like, he was like, "I can't say no to that. Okay, if it works and you could prove that we earn the money, then yeah, we could do that and double the price." And I've doubled the price like 3 times because we keep proving that it works. So we keep growing it and growing it and growing it. So yeah.

Wow, wow. And that really nails down as an agency how important it is to track the results, you're actually delivering to the clients. I think this is such a huge learning. That's, that's really awesome, Tom. So let's get to the next question, Tom. And you've been managing so much stuff, right? You've been handling different services because a lot of marketing agencies specifically, they stick to one kind of service and they specialize in it and they do it over and over. But you are like all over, like you're trying Facebook ads and you're giving amazing results, Google Ads, SEO kind of marketing funnels, emails and everything, right? And you got clients who are good, who are bad, and you got team you're in a different time frame than what your most clients actually are in, right? So I wonder, how do you actually manage everything on your plate? Like, any tools you use to manage projects, clients, for productivity?

That's good. Um, to be completely honest with you, if I'm going to be 100% transparent, I'm probably one of the least productive people in the world. Um, I moved out here because I just wanted absolute freedom. I don't look at a calendar. I wake up when I want, I pretty much do what I want. So what I, what I, what I am exceptionally good at is I'm exceptionally good at being lazy with purpose. So what I do is I build these systems, and I figure out, I jump into a service, and I learn it. And I go, okay, like, how do I learn everything I need to know about Facebook ads to really understand it? And then I figure out how to outsource it. And you can't outsource it. A lot of people make the mistake of just like, white labeling either too soon or not charging enough to be able to get the best people that you can for the service. So like, I have one guy in particular, uh, and he's killer at Google Ads. I mean, just amazing at Google Ads. And I haven't touched a Google Ad since, since I hired him because he's just really good. And I know that it can be done. So, but I have to charge enough of a margin to be able to figure out how to run the ad to attract the client to me, to close them, and then to do any of the creative stuff that might be surrounding it, building the funnel or anything like that. So I have done a lot of services. Um, as far as productivity goes, I use a CRM, which is important just for keeping up with, you know, day-to-day and stuff like that. But for me, it's about building— it's actually about systemizing results. But you have to understand, because you can't sit at like the top of the of the hill looking down and going, okay, is this being done right? Is this being done right? Is this being done right? If you don't know what the hell you're doing, and too many people don't know what they're doing. So like, honestly, the, the agencies that probably niche down are doing— are smarter than me. They just are. Because if you niche down and you do that, you're probably— you've probably had way less headaches than I've had in the last 5 years. But because I've been full-time, I'm the kind of creative person where like I learned something and then I get bored with it. So, it's more like I go, "Okay." Like I got Facebook ads now and I'm outsourcing it. I want to learn SEO. And then I start down that rabbit hole. If I was doing things the right way, honestly, it should be, it should be pick 1 or 2 services. I don't want to say pick 1 service because I could tell you another failure I had was I specialized in Instagram marketing for a brief period of time. I ran the software, if you've ever heard of it, called Jarvee. I learned all about it. Speaking of that, if I could circle back to people who are absolutely full of shit in the marketing space, I remember this one kid. He's pretty well known in the community. I won't say his name because I'm not here to do that, but I remember I was following him because I was liking what he was talking about. I was following his Instagram, and at the time I was doing hashtag research and Instagram profile research. So I had the spreadsheet where I was looking at people's profiles. Putting down the hashtags they used and the follower counts. And his follower count was like 4,000. A week later, he announced that he's going to release the Instagram follower growth masterclass or whatever like that. And I look at his Instagram profile and he has 450,000 followers. So he went and he bought 430 or 440-something Instagram followers from like Instafollow or Followliker or one of those. And then put himself out there as being like the Instagram guy. And I remember saying to my girlfriend then, like, you know what? I actually really liked his knowledge. I liked what he said. And I didn't care that he had 4,000 followers. Now I don't trust him though. So now I don't really trust what he says. So, um, anyway, I ran an Instagram marketing agency for a brief period of time. We were using Jarvee and Instagram's algorithm changed and it rendered Jarvee useless overnight. True. I don't know. Did you ever use Jarvee before?

No, I haven't used Jarvee before, but I've seen the Instagram downgrowth in a snap, just like that. Yeah, it was really—

Algorithm changes, businesses belly up. And this is something that I learned from my music time too. When I was doing the MySpace days, back to the backstory again, I could circle back to that. Jesus, I'm talking all over the place. Um, but I did the whatever, a few million plays, few million streams. And then I decided I'm going to take a 3-month hiatus. I want to restructure the band. I want to start writing a new EP. And I just needed a break because every day I was just reaching out to 600 new people on MySpace. And it was— I mean, it was like a full-time job. It was crazy. Um, and I needed a break. Do you know what happened in those 3 months? Facebook came in. MySpace became a ghost town overnight, and I lost contact with all of those people. Spent 2 years building the MySpace page and lost everybody. And I, I kick myself in the ass because I'm like, build an email list, move the traffic somewhere else, right? Don't just put all your eggs in one basket. So with my agency, I don't ever want to specialize in just one single service because like we learned with the Instagram algorithm change, it could put your business belly up over and over.

Yeah, that's, that's 100% true. That's really awesome, Tom. And this is gonna really help a lot of entrepreneurs to see the way they're actually looking at the business, and the perspective is entirely different when it comes to looking at your stories. That's really awesome. And Tom, we understand that you're not that organized when it comes to your productivity, but we would love to hear more about, like, do you kind of have any daily routine for yourself?

I used to, um, I was much more successful back then. Uh, COVID really really made me a couch potato. Really made me a couch potato. Last week I should have been working and I bought the Mafia trilogy for PlayStation 4 because I never played it, and I beat all 3 games like last week. I didn't do anything last week other than play video games. So I don't mind admitting that I'm not the most qualified for my daily routine. But back in the day, I used to use, uh, John Lee Dumas's, uh, Mastery Journal. And what I did was I would wake up in the morning I would do some meditation. I used to do Joe Vitale's water rising meditation, which was amazing, but it was really long. So I only did it— I briefly did that for a few months, but I would do a meditation. I would have a fire up my Nespresso machine and have an espresso in the morning. I would read, try to read like a chapter of a book. And then briefly during that time period, I went to the gym. And then I would do some like gratitude reflection kind of thing. I'm really big on law of attraction too. I don't really talk about it too much because it sounds like all woo-woo and stuff like that, but really big on law of attraction because I think it works similarly to music. But that's a whole other science thing. Yeah, phase relationships and stuff like that. But anyway, yeah, so I would try to start off my day with some kind of positivity and I'm a cynical guy from Jersey, so being positive is very difficult for me because I'm kind of hardwired to be like, "Fuck that guy," right? Like, that's just how we're wired from the Northeast. In fact, last time me and my girlfriend went home, we walked in the Wawa and I'm holding the door for the guy, he's holding the door open for me, and I said, "Oh, you can come in," and he went, "Yeah, yeah, come on, come on, come on." And we just both laughed because we were like, that was the friendliest, like, New Jersey exchange that you could ever have. Some guy just, come on, come on, annoyed, but it was so friendly. Um, yeah, so that trying to start off the day with positivity I think is important. I recently watched a documentary which with, uh, Jerry Seinfeld and I think it's Carl Reiner, and, uh, he says I read the obituaries in the morning, and if I'm not in them, then I have breakfast. And they're interviewing Jerry Seinfeld, and they're talking about like how hard life can be and stuff like that. Jerry Seinfeld says, every single morning I wake up with the deepest depression. The second I open my eyes, I'm depressed. I don't want to get out of bed. I don't want to do anything. He's like, but the second I get up and I do the first action, whether it's brushing the teeth or making— whatever it is, it gets my day going, it immediately disappears. But there's depression the second I wake up. And that was really cool to see because I'm thinking like, Jesus, like if a billionaire comedian, right, this guy never really worked. Like he has the funnest job in the world, make people laugh. And he's a billionaire. And if this guy feels this way, if his first thought in the morning is, ah, to hell with this day, right? I know that it's just basic, you know, kind of human nature. So yeah, I try to start off my day. If you start off your day with a little bit of positivity, a little bit of gratitude, reading, just try to get— I think it could help. But again, I'm probably the least qualified person to be giving this advice, but it has worked for me in the past.

But COVID, you know, COVID world, we hope you'll be back to the routines because it's gonna make your day much more productive. That's really awesome, Tom. I think it's really left a lot of learnings for especially people, entrepreneurs who are trying to build the routines, right? That's really awesome. So And Tom, you've been into business for a long time, trying, failing, you know, rumbling around different stuff, right? So we'd love to hear, if you had an opportunity to talk to a 20-year-old yourself or someone who's just getting started, what will be your number one suggestion to them?

God, it would be the hell with perfectionism. I just got over my perfectionism. I joined Dan Henry's 5-day challenge and about— and then went into the coaching program. And by the second week of the coaching program, I finally defeated my perfectionism, which my perfectionism has been haunting me my entire life. And I think it was Dan who said to me, like, there's no such thing as perfectionism. It's just, you just, it's laziness, right? Like you're, you're trying to perfect doesn't exist. There's no even perfect circle. So by you saying that just means you're lying to yourself and everybody else. And I did this with music. I wrote a record in 2009, was my life's work. I wanted to release it, never released it. Mix isn't good enough, still got the files on my computer. Every business I wanted to do, didn't release a video, it's not good enough. And what's funny is a lot of it's tied into identity too. So I would tell him to be careful of perfectionism and forget your identity, because back then my identity was a singer-songwriter musician. Like, that's what I did. And when I was out here in Thailand, I think I was about 3 years in, I remember I went out to the bar with a friend that I knew for like 3 years and we're just talking and he said, oh, you, you sing and play guitar? I didn't know that. And I just remember that being crushing because I'm like, I've been this guy since I was 9 years old. How does this person that I've known for all these years not— because they only know me as the guy who drinks out at the bar in Thailand. I don't play music out here. Because it's actually illegal for an expat to do a gig without like a proper visa and stuff. So I just don't play out here. So I haven't been a performer since I left New Jersey. I've been a marketer. So he only knows me as a marketer. So that was like crushing to me. But what's funny is back when I was a musician, I had no problem releasing marketing videos but couldn't release my music. And then when it flipped, I was like, oh, well, now I'm a marketer. I can just, I can just go on Facebook Live and play guitar right now without worrying about it being perfect. So Yeah, it would be to shed those— your identity is going to change throughout your life. So when you kind of give yourself like a, I am this person in this box, and because the world knows me as this person, everything in this box has to be perfect or it can't leave the box, is bullshit. And that's what I would tell myself at 20 years old, because God, the things that I, I could have— I, I could really kick myself in the ass because Like, I was on YouTube. Me and my buddy started a YouTube channel in 2010. We actually won a— we created a— I created a commercial, storyboarded a commercial, and we filmed it. It was Keith Urban had a cologne contest, come up with a cologne commercial for his brand new cologne, and he's going to give, you know, prizes to whoever wins. And we actually placed our commercial second place for that. And It was a really good, good commercial that the premise was good. I'm not really an overly patriotic guy, but I understand the marketing aspect of it. So what we did was we, we showed a soldier overseas. And the commercial— now listen to my ADD. Now I'm telling you about a commercial. So the commercial was, is it was for the cologne commercial. We show a soldier overseas, a soldier overseas, and he's writing to his wife back home, or girlfriend, or whatever. Dear Jackie, it's been— I've been over here for 3 months, missing you every day. And we're overlaying it. And, and, dear Jackie, it's been 6 months. Dear Jackie, I miss you so much. And there's a sad bluesy song I wrote playing in the background. And then at the end of each time that he writes the letter, he sprays it with Keith Urban's cologne and puts it in the thing. As he's reading it, all of a sudden you hear a girl's voice reading it too. So you hear, dear Jackie, it's— and dear Jackie, you know, like just reading over it, and all of a sudden it zooms out and the woman who's been— oh, he gets on a plane, he's going home. You see his cab pull up and he says, I think, in the letter, like, by the time you get this, um, you know, you will not have heard the news or whatever. So he's coming home without her knowing. As it goes out of his voice overlaying with the girls, as it zooms out, uh, the girl reading the letter isn't his wife. His wife's blind, and the woman— and it's her friend reading the letters to her. Jeff walks in the door, she smells the cologne and realizes he's home. And it says like, Keith Urban, Phoenix. So we did this. Wow. We did this commercial, and I was like, we're tying in the military, we're tying in the cologne. This is, this is a slam dunk. So we do the commercial and we place second place. Uh, I wanted to be a YouTube— that was my next path. I'm gonna be a YouTube star. I had a friend, Alex Goot, who was making tremendous money on YouTube as a cover artist. Um, so I was like, we're gonna try that. So me and my buddy Brian did it. We stopped our YouTube channel in 2010 because I thought I was too late. I thought YouTube was a platform that was too late. It was acquired by Google a year later and is still the biggest streaming platform in the world. Could you imagine if I was still making music videos 10 years later on Google? or on YouTube.

You would be a rock star. You would be a rock star.

Yeah, so it's like perfectionism.

Yeah.

And just like this, the excuses. Absolutely. So yeah, I kicked myself in the ass for leaving YouTube because I think I'm too late in 2010. I gotta be out of my mind.

So yeah, it's never too late. It's all about putting yourself out constantly. That's really awesome, Tom. I think this is a learning curve for a lot of business owners who's trying to be perfect before they actually be live or be public. You should never be, because it's, it's a, it's like you're never born perfect. It's just the way you are. And I, and I believe the key learning for me was also like the identity thing, because you cannot be like a single person who is known for this XYZ thing while you're still trying to figure out, until or unless you're building a multi-trillion dollar brand, something like that. You cannot be that single person known for this XYZ thing, right? Yeah, like even people like Elon Musk, they're known for multiple personalities and multiple kind of niches but you as a small business owner still try to be like, hey, I'm this one nerd who do this one thing, but that's not real, right? Absolutely.

And at the end of the day, man, like, we're all human beings. We're all on this earth to just enjoy ourselves. And when we work too hard on trying to preserve these preconceived notions of who we are, we miss out on some really important things in life. Um, because that's 100%. Yeah, we tend to clump in groups, right? Like, we, we're this person, and then we tend to hang out with this group of people, and they have to have these beliefs, and they have to be this way and this. And it's like, you really miss out on some wonderful experiences in life if you get in your own way too much with that.

So 100%, Tom. So let's go to the next question, Tom. So we've been doing so many stuff, and you had so many achievements and stuff like that throughout the journey, right? So would you like to mention, like, your life's biggest achievement so far and any next bigger goals?

Hmm, biggest achievement. My biggest achievement was definitely moving out here and obtaining absolute freedom, and not the kind of freedom that comes from a law or political policy or a piece of paper or something like real, I get to wake up and do whatever the hell I want today and I don't have to answer to anybody kind of freedom. Owning your time. That was my most important goal when I moved out here. And the funny thing is, is when I realized it, I remember we were 4 years into living here, 3 years into living here. And I woke up one morning and I felt like shit. I just felt like such an imposter, a failure. I'm like, I don't have the million dollars yet. I didn't make enough money. We're living in this small apartment. Like, what have I done in the last few years? I like— I'm a failure, right? And I'm feeling the weight of that, like, just really emotional. And I look out and I see the mountains, the Chiang Mai mountains, Doi Suthep, from where we're at. I'm like, wow, that's so beautiful! And then I was like, what day is it? And I was like, what month is it? And I start thinking like that. What month is it? And then I went, Oh, I didn't achieve my marketing goals or my music goals, but I achieved my number one goal. My number one goal was freedom. And I can't think about what month or what day it is because I don't have anything that I have to do that's pressing today. Like, I own my time. And it's been a goal of mine since I was like 18 years old. And they said, you're going to work until you're 62. And, and that's it. That's going to be your life. And I was like, I don't buy into this culture. I don't like it. So yeah, that was my biggest achievement. But it was— and then I just remember being filled with joy. Like, wow, my optics of my failing life, because I didn't achieve these identity goals, again, that we're talking about, and half a million dollars, I didn't, and I didn't have my music out there. It didn't really matter because I achieved my number one goal, which was freedom. Now my big goal coming up is I want to I want to get more productive. I want to build a bigger business. Um, I eventually want to teach people to do what I did. That's like my ultimate goal. I want to find that young 20-year-old version of somebody who's just like myself and tell him, listen, you could tell your pastor, your priest, your parents, your college professors, you can tell all of them to piss off. There's another way to take control of your life, to build a business online, to make money because this is the most liberating thing in the world to me. And I'm passionate about it because if I could find that person and get them unstuck like I was stuck, right, like get them unstuck and do that, I would love to go into like just teaching people how to build their own business online so they could travel the world and do whatever they want, yada yada yada. But I don't want to launch that yet. I want to prove a little bit more success with my agency first. Um, because again, I don't— I do think it's important to have a little bit more experience. Um, true. Yeah, I'd say by the beginning of next year, that's, that's what I want to transition to. My big goal is to be one of those people, hopefully come back to the States, start doing some public speaking, shit like that.

So wow, wow, that's, that's really exciting, Tom. We are definitely excited and looking forward for that. That's, that's really beautiful the way you're thinking to, you know, unstuck a lot of people from there, from where they are, to actually achieve their their kind of goals or where they want to be and be truly themselves, right? Not being limited in, in those lines and trying to play around what the parents said or the teachers or the priests said, right? They can do whatever they want. That's really awesome. Let's get to the next question, Tom.

Sure.

So again, you've been doing so many mistakes, but again, if there is an opportunity to name one quickly, what was the biggest mistakes in your business, kind of?

Undercharging and trying to overdeliver. Because I put myself in these areas where clients, my early clients, rely on me for things that are completely unrelated to my service and they're huge time sucks and they expect more out of me than what really should be part of the terms of the deal. And I don't mind overdelivering. My girlfriend yells at me about it all the time. She's like, the problem is, is that you love this shit. And when you like it, you do too much for free. Like, you can't be somebody's sounding board for every single thing. Um, so on one hand, it's why my clients love working with me, because I give a lot, right? And I give them good perspectives and stuff like that. But on the other hand, it is— I've had those situations where I've over-delivered for somebody, and then it became an expectation in the future And then it became a disappointment. Like, I remember we lost a client who hired us for social media management, and we lost her because she had an issue with something with the event, with a brochure or Facebook ad or something like that. And I was just like, I did this thing for you. Oh, I remember what it was. She did an event. Yeah, she— we ran a Facebook ad for her and for for her, for her, and for Jesus, for an event, we ran a Facebook ad, we were doing her social media management for her. She ran the event, and not enough people showed up. And it— and I said, listen, why don't we take your slides, go to a recording studio and record, we'll turn your presentation into a webinar. So you can send it to the people who didn't show up to the event, but you gotta do it within a week. She was a financial planner because you gotta get them back in. And then if it succeeds, you can run ads for a webinar for it. She took 4 and a half months to get into the studio. And when she went to the studio, she went to a ridiculously expensive studio. I told her to go find one for like $50 an hour. She went to one that was like $300. And the guy sent horrible audio, clipped the audio. I spent hours literally mixing her audio. So now I'm a social media manager who's mixing clipped audio and doing spectral audio repair and all this stuff and editing her video to be a webinar. And the webinar wasn't that great and it was late and it didn't do well. And she said, I wasted all this money at the studio and this webinar and like, because you told me to. And it's like, okay, well, I fixed your audio for free and you expected me to do that because that's what I set myself up for. I edited your video for free because I set myself up to be that guy. I've done all this stuff. And now you're disappointed because you went to a studio that was, what, 6 times more expensive than what I suggested? And you're upset about the money. And she fired us from doing her social media management because of that, because I over-delivered, overextended, and then it creates disappointment later. So that was one of my early mistakes. Um, in— and she, she was a social media management, uh, client. She was like our only big social media management client, and we got on the phone with her once every 2 weeks for about 2 hours. Now, you know, social media management, you do not need to get on the phone with somebody every 2 weeks for hours. You write content, you schedule it, and that's it.

Like, simple. It's simple. So I think this is a lot of Yeah, this is a lot of business owners' mistakes, especially when it comes to agency space, right? And they need to really set up the bars to the service they're going to do, because as an agency you can work with so many clients, right? There is, there is a limit to the cap. And let's say you cannot, you know, go over 10 clients, 20 clients, 50 clients for the service capacity. And if you keep on doing the stuff which you never promised, you will be ending up with the same client, with the same pay, same payroll, same place where you are. And when you look back, you'll be like, ah, And it would be like, aha moment, the all the mistakes.

Absolutely. And mistakes are only mistakes if you don't ever fail forward. Like, for example, that mistake taught me that I need to sell systems, not services. So now when I get on the, on the phone with clients, I sell them a lead generation system. A lead generation system is a whole lot different. People expect less out of their systems than they do their market, or Yeah, less time out of their marketers if they're selling them systems than if they're selling them services. Services means you get on the phone. System means here, here's a done-for-you system, it's laid out, here's the software, here's the funnel, here's this, and that's it. Goodbye.

Thank you. Yep.

And that's it. Plug it in and you're done. Um, but I've taken that learning, and like, even recently for my Roofing Marketing Guys company, when I set up that company with my partner Dan, um, we were talking, we're going back and forth all about our company and like, you know, what are we gonna do? And he's like, I think we need commercials for roofers. And he's like, we should do a commercial for them. Um, actually, another funny commercial idea for that, uh, to get clients. But anyway, um, so he was like, we need to build them a commercial. And I was like, no, man, F that. Like, we do not need to build every single roofing client a commercial. What we need to do is make a generic commercial that's really good And part of this system is they get to license the commercial from us. Done deal. One commercial done, and it's still valuable. And we don't sell them a commercial, it's just a part of it. Oh, by the way, right? By the way, we also license this commercial.

It's going to help your ads convert because you're increasing the value of your package. And I think this is something a lot of agency owners should really understand, is like packaging systems and process rather than trying to sell the services. Because once you package it, you make sure there is no missing pieces and you can easily scale it because it's just a one-time work done and you plug it in the 1,000 clients to sign up for, or else if you keep on doing service, you need to from scratch build customized systems for every client you get in if you're just selling services. I think that's a key learning. Thank you so much for that, Tom. So let's get to the next question, Tom.

Sure. And sorry, this is running so long, man. I appreciate you having me on. I know I'm like—

this is amazing, so much value in because, you know, the every journey you're actually sharing, right, there is a key learning in it. And I think This is what our viewers are expecting, and they really want that juicing on how you have been so many mistakes and what kind of learning curves you did in your life, because this is going to really help a lot of entrepreneurs to avoid them. Because every time they read a book or listen to a podcast, this is what they really want— the mistakes and the learnings— because they cannot repeat the mistake they have ever heard, right? So this is something which is a key learning. So we really appreciate you taking our time here and actually delivering so much value. Let's get to the next question, Tom. So your main inspiration for the success you've achieved and any key people involved in your journey?

I mean, my, my girlfriend is definitely the, the biggest key person. Um, we met in, in middle school. Um, I had a, I had a crush on her from day one. Um, and then we were best friends forever, uh, forever. Um, and then we finally got together 10 years ago now, 9, I think it'll be 10 years, something like that. God, I hope she doesn't watch this. She's gonna be like, are you serious? You don't know how many years. So, um, yeah, but she's been, she's been huge and, and just being really patient, really kind of pushing me forward, calling me out on my shit, right? Like, she's, she's definitely called me out on my shit when I need to be called out on my shit. Really open to a lot of things that I've, I've done. One of the things that I do, I do hypnotherapy all the time. I do it once, probably once a month, sometimes once every 2 weeks, with a genius guy out here, Nicholas Harris. But I do it for all kinds of stuff, not just personal stuff, but also for business, thinking, trying to get creative, trying to get in that space. So she's been really supportive with stuff. I mean, anybody who's willing to say Imagine, imagine a boyfriend kicks in the door and goes, hey honey, uh, listen, I think we should quit our jobs and get rid of all of our money and go move to a foreign country. What do you say? Should we try it? Yeah, we'll bring the cats. Like, most women would be like, you're out of your freaking mind and I'm leaving you. So yeah, she's, she's been really, really— yeah. But as far as like inspiration, um I take inspiration from all kinds of people. I'm not one of these douchebags that I see online that's always like, your 5 friends, like, have to be super successful like you and stuff like that. Like, I, I hate that. I hate this belief that, like, every relationship in your life has to be transactional. I get inspiration from all kinds of people all the time, and I think that's where the musical side comes in, um, because as a musician, I'm constantly inspired by all kinds of different art. Right? And, and to me, it's like, I get inspired reading somebody's Facebook ads, I get inspired watching movies, I get inspired watching comedians all the time, I love stand-up comedy. So to me, it's like, I've been inspired by my friends, I've been inspired by mentors, I've been inspired by people that, you know, I've mentored people, I don't want to say beneath me, but you know what I mean? Like somebody had a lower experience level, lower success, like, I just think that you can find inspiration everywhere.

True. Yeah, I think that perspective is what's going to really allow us to be that, like, maintain that learning curve. Because, you know, there is an ego to the entrepreneurs who actually get to a level, and they'll be like, yeah, you know what, I don't want to look at people who are under me. And that really closes up their mind, and that's where the distraction starts, and that's where the destruction starts up. And it's gonna compound if they keep that mindset on. I believe that's, that's a real mindset all of entrepreneurs really need to have. And Tom, you're such an amazing person. You're keeping on adding amazing value. Sharing, like, sharing your journey, amazing learning curves, and, you know, all the mistakes, and kind of being super transparent on whatever you have had, like, all of your learning experience of that, you know, the 30-year journey or whatever you had, right? Really laid out on this podcast, and really appreciate that, right? So a lot of people who might be thinking that they need some support from your end, maybe like as the marketing side or as like a consulting side, on where they can actually get more help, right? Because everyone wants to learn from a dude who's been there, right? So where can our audience find you mentoring, Tom?

Uh, go to tomcampconsulting.com. Um, right now, currently, if you go on the website, uh, it's probably more geared towards, uh, real estate agents and business owners. But honestly, if you are somebody who really wants to get in the marketing space and, and kind of follow the same path, I would, I would love to talk to you because I really thoroughly enjoy this stuff. To be completely honest, I probably shouldn't say this, but I don't really care about roofers, real estate agents, and stuff like that. Not that I don't care about them as people, it just doesn't get me excited, right? What gets me excited is marketing. I love the idea that we can take the— the internet is the equalizer of all opportunity, like all opportunity on the internet. Now, before I say this, I'm not saying there's not such things as like tremendous amounts of race issues and gender issues and systemic issues that need to be addressed in the world. That is not what I'm saying here. But what I am saying is that if you are a marketer and you make your money online, you have a way where the internet doesn't care who you are. There's an audience for you somewhere. Doesn't matter what, what you are, who you identify with. I'm a lazy musician from Jersey with a potty mouth. There's still clients out there for me. In the professional world, I'm, I'm done. I'm gone in, in a month. They're like, what do you mean you show up to work at noon and you curse like a sailor? Like, no, that doesn't work. So there is an audience out there for every single person. You just have to find your unique branding positioning, your unique, your unique marketing positioning, build your brand around that, give the value, and the internet will allow you to make money anywhere in the world to build the life that you want to build. And I am just such a believer in that. Every time somebody says like, oh, 4-Hour Workweek, 'Nah, that's nonsense.' Or, you know, 'Oh, Russell Brunson's Expert Secrets.' I'm just like, you just don't know until you do it. This shit works. It just works. And it's liberating. I love it. I love it. I just talk about this shit forever.

Absolutely, Tom. And I think this is really awesome that, like, internet being that lucrative marketplace for everyone to come out, no matter if these guys from America or Africa, Asia, it doesn't matter. Like, he can come out and actually you know, get himself out and actually look at the opportunity to build a real marketplace around him and start monetizing it. And there was no government or any country helped their, their people to do this kind of stuff, never ever before. And even in the coming future, I hope, right? So that's really awesome, Tom, and this is really exciting. And Tom, let's get into— this was amazing, valuable session, but any last word before we conclude the entire podcast session for today?

Any last words? Oh man. I need some famous last words here, right? I gotta like drop something really big. Um, no, I mean, I guess the last— let's see, so we touched on a lot of things. We did the mindset close, we touched on perfectionism and identity, which I think is just really important, uh, for people. I guess, you know, if I can give one more thing as far as like finding influence and stuff like that, copywriting and things like that, because I think that's one area where I think I see a lot of people struggling the most is in copywriting. First of all, just, just outsource it if you're not good at it. Pay somebody who's really good. That's if you're not. But if you want to learn how to be good at it, I would read Hypnotic Writing by Joe Vitale. I would read a couple of other copywriting books. I think I just read Breakthrough Advertising. But for me, the copywriting thing came from just years of studying music and comedy. Like, if you want to— comedy more than music, right? So like music, I always say comedians are the bravest people on the planet. They're the bravest people on the planet. Um, because musicians— like, if I go out there as a musician, I go play a bar, I'm having an off night, my voice is off, I'm out of tune, whatever— I can play an NSYNC song or a Beatles song or a Metallica song or whatever the audience is, and I can bring them back, right? I can win them back because I got a bag of tricks. Um, because music is kind of universal. A comedian is one guy with a microphone, or girl with a microphone, on a stage talking to all these people, and the second they screw up, the whole crowd will turn on them. Like, it has to be the most nerve-wracking thing in the world. So if you want to see who's like an expert at just copywriting, it's comedians because they have to— the way that they weave their jokes in and out, like the inflections, the repetition, the, you know, they just always have like this perfect setup with this perfect punchline. And I watch all kinds of them because I try to get an idea of their cadences, right? Like in their voice, like Chris Rock, George Carlin, Jerry Seinfeld, like all of these people. Judah Friedlander is another really funny one. He did the whole sarcastic America's the greatest country in the United States. That special was hilarious. But there's all these ways that they kind of weave in and out and they use language as a tool, especially George Carlin, especially George Carlin. And when you kind of see that, you'll relate that to copywriting. Like, for example, Chris Rock does this bit where he's, you know, the government hates rap. And then he does another bit where he says, you know, women can't go back and and lifestyle, and men can't go back sexually. They can't do it, they can't do it. And he does this thing, and they can't do it. And one thing that he does is, like, especially in those bits, is he'll say the government hates rap, and then he'll support it with a bunch of points. And then he'll go, the government hates rap, and then he supports it with a bunch of points. The government hates rap, you know, Tupac's dead, Vanilla Ice is still alive, the government hates rap, right? So like, he keeps finding those key points supporting them and then drilling in and reminding them again. And I remember watching Chris Rock and George Carlin and being like, these guys are master writers. So when you want to learn how to be a master storyteller, master writing, I just read Michael Hauge's, uh, what's the storytelling book? Um, I forget what it's called. And then my other friend Nico Sanchez is a copywriter out here and he's amazing. He just wrote this, uh, It's a free PDF that he has on copywriting, all about like the hero's journey and using that and stuff like that. So like reading books, watching comedy, that's going to really help you to be a marketer when you could start to see the world through marketers' lenses, right? Even politics, man. Like, I mean, I watch— I watch political campaigns and I just go, I know what they're doing there. I get it. I'm not outraged by it. I get what they're doing there. I see it. They're moving the needle, getting eyeballs and stuff like that. So really kind of taking that inspiration, if you can learn how to be a better copywriter, it's going to help you in your business all the way through for everything.

True. Yeah, that's really awesome, Tom. And I believe like the one guy who actually knows copywriting or understand how to persuade someone ethically and they let them take an action by giving them the right pointers, I think that's a never-ending skill. Like it, it's all— it, it can be always be monetized in a way or the other, right? I think that's the number one skill everyone should have. And I believe every entrepreneur is technically a copywriter in a way or the other because he needs to sell his team on, he needs to manage his team on, and he needs to get things done, right? And copy is what really makes him to do that stuff, right? Maybe they're not specifically good at writing the sales copy, but overall the psychology of understanding the human is really, really important. And Tom, I think that was really, really, really valuable, brother. It was really fun having you on this podcast. Thank you so much for amazing opportunity and spending like 90 minutes of your valuable time on this podcast and sharing your entire journey, nailing down every single piece of story and really opening up all the learning curves you had and showing behind the scenes and how it looked like for you and giving us a perspective, a different perspective as a successful marketer and helping businesses. And hopefully, guys who are watching this podcast so far, hopefully you learned a lot of stuff together. This is Tom Camp and Nikhil Sai here. Make sure to re-listen to this podcast and write down all the learning curves Tom mentioned. He given amazing strategies on how to not be a perfectionist and how to actually start and scale and create your own lead pool of business and stuff like that. So many learning curves. Make sure to re-listen it and make sure to check out tomcampconsulting.com so that you can get in contact with Tom in case if you need any more help. I'll be putting that in the description as well. So hopefully you enjoyed the podcast session so far. So stay tuned for the next interview, guys. This is me, the Nikhil Sai, and Tom Camp signing off for today. Peace, guys.