What Dentists Aren’t Telling You About Oral Health, Fluoride, Inflammation & the Oral Microbiome

Today I'm joined by Dr. Stacy Whitman, a functional dentist with expertise in treating both adults and children. Today we're going to talk about oral health and supporting your oral microbiome, how oral health impacts heart health and brain longevity, the risks of a lot of modern-day practices like teeth whitening, mouthwash, fluoridation in water, and other things, and how you can take more natural approaches that actually support your oral health We'll talk about how nutrition impacts your oral health and so much more. Dr. Stacy Whitman, you are such an amazing expert in this space, and I would love to hear from you how you got started in functional dentistry and what your initial training looked like.

Certainly. Thank you so much for having me. I look up to you so much and admire what you're doing to help elevate the space too. So thank you for letting me be here to share this message and this education. Um, you know, I was trained traditionally like every dentist has to be. Um, I think that's foundational and it's an important thing to comment on. Uh, but I, when I graduated, I was just very dissatisfied with my career. Um, I honestly felt depressed. I almost left dentistry multiple times, um, because I didn't feel I was actually making a difference. I went into this to help to heal patients and educate and be their guide on their, their health journey. But with modern practice and modern practice models, it was very turn and burn, and I didn't have time to connect with my patients and really fully understand the full scope of their health. So what I did, instead of abandoning my career and all my student loan debt, I decided, well, I'm going to try to salvage this. How do I get upstream upstream as much as possible. And with that I thought, gosh, I need to get into pediatrics. And so I went into pediatrics not because of a deep passion for children, although of course I love children, but I did that because that is the most upstream that you can get. It's through education, it's educating the parent, it's educating the kids, it's setting up good healthy habits through diet, nutrition, hygiene, et cetera, health, clean products, um, what have you. To set them onto a trajectory of optimization. And so that's what I did. And so I became board certified in pediatric dentistry, and I graduated, and unfortunately I found the same dissatisfaction, except now in pediatrics the appointments are shorter and it's more churn and burn. So you see more volume of patients every day, faster pace, less time with your patient. Um, and so then this became a slow evolution where I myself was digging deeper into nutrition and optimizing myself and living the healthiest life that I could live. And I started, you know, I read of Weston Price's work. You know, Weston Price was a dentist in the 1920s and '30s who did a lot of research around root cause principles with oral health, including nutritional status and how we're breathing and how we're chewing and how we're swallowing, etc. So I read his work and then I was exposed to, um, many colleagues that were thinking differently. I didn't feel like such a lone wolf. And so I, I just sought out as much education. I sought out as much research. I made as many connections. I was flying around the country shadowing people in their practices. And then I, I did find functional medicine. Um, and I went through functional medicine certification through the Institute for Functional Medicine. And that's really where the light bulb went off that I thought, my goodness, we need to take more of a systems biology root cause approach to dentistry. Dentistry's become so siloed, compartmentalized. We need to get the mouth back into the body and understand the mouth really is the gateway to the body. The mouth influences our immune health, our hormonal health, our cardiovascular health, our neurocognitive health, et cetera. And I know we'll get more into this, but, um, and so I started incorporating in these principles, um, and it's been, uh, a slow but very meaningful journey and it's been very well received because It saved my career because I really see my patients get truly healthy again and inspired and like really taking oral health seriously. And that spreads, you know, that spreads from the patient that you're seeing to their parent, to their siblings, to their community. And that's how I am fulfilling my sense of purpose much more that I really feel that this approach and like slowing down and really connecting with your patient and applying these, these functional medicine principles to my work has— it's really moving the needle in a much more positive way.

I love that that has created a higher level of fulfillment for you. And I think that's, you know, similar to what you hear from a lot of doctors and even dietitians as well who are conventionally trained, and then they go back to— because they're seeing people just get sicker and sicker in front of them, and it's like some— something is off. This is not how it's supposed to be. And I feel like with more people understanding we have to take a root cause approach to medicine that it's translating into then this awareness of we actually also need to take a root cause approach to our oral health and how much oral health impacts everything. So I'd love for you to break down for someone who this is their, their first experience hearing about oral health and the oral microbiome. Like maybe they've heard bits and pieces of how oral health is important. Can you explain why it matters as much as it does?

Yeah, thank you. So we can see issues in your body manifest in your mouth before they may show up symptomatically or even on labs. And that's really important to know. Like the mouth is a very important part and component of your physical, you know, exam. But many, what do the doctors do? They usually say, your physician, open up, say ah, and they look, whoop, right back to your tonsils. But they're not looking at your tongue, they're not looking at your gums, they're not looking at your teeth, they're not looking at your mucosa. And so this can start from a nutritional standpoint. So we can see if someone has iron deficiency or potentially vitamin C deficiency. Maybe if they are celiac or gluten intolerant, they might have oral ulcerations in the mouth. Cracks in the corners of the mouth can be zinc deficiency or B vitamin deficiency. So there's a lot we can see nutritionally in the mouth if you know what you're looking for. But then, you know, let's look at your teeth. So if your teeth, if you're prone to decay, that can be a sign of fat-soluble vitamin deficiencies, particularly D3 and K2, or mineral deficiencies like calcium, phosphorus, and magnesium. We've oversimplified the reason for dental disease, and it is the top chronic disease globally. I think that's very important for people to understand. We've normalized gum disease and cavities, but they are mostly preventable. Okay, this is mostly a preventable disease, and it is showing that there's imbalance in the body. These are metabolic imbalances, these are hormonal imbalances, these are microbiome dysbiosis, um, whether from the gut or the mouth. And let me get into that a bit. So most of us at this point know the gut microbiome, the gut is so foundational for our health. Um, but I want you to think of this. So if you have intestinal permeability and you're not absorbing and utilizing and assimilating your vitamins, your minerals appropriately, that will impact your teeth. So starting in utero, when you're pregnant, if this is happening to you as a mom, this can impact your baby's tooth development. It could impact how their jaws are developing, and then that can translate, um, into the child. So if in, in those first 1,000 days of childhood If the gut isn't optimized, your children aren't absorbing and utilizing vitamin D appropriately and all the phytonutrients and all the minerals and all the nutrition that they need. So we see this in the mouth. And what's, you know, you can look into the mouth. It's such an easy snapshot and window into a patient's health, including we can see biofilm. So we talk a lot about biofilm in functional medicine, but we can't usually see a biofilm. We can't see the sinus biofilm. We can't see the gut. You can see it in the mouth, and that's called plaque. And what, what are— what is this biofilm? Well, this is your oral microbiome, okay? And so we have the gut microbiome, but we also have the oral microbiome. And the oral microbiome is the second most diverse microbiome in the body. And I want everyone to get off this podcast and start thinking the mouth is the gut. It is the beginning of the alimentary tract. It's where we start digestion, but it's It is all one tube. And so these bacteria are very bidirectional from gut to mouth. And think about this, we swallow 2,000 times a day. So we are translocating or inoculating our gut constantly with oral bacteria. So if you have dysbiosis in the mouth, if you have keystone pathogens or, you know, an imbalanced microbiome where there's more pathogenic bacteria than commensal and beneficial, You will be out of balance. And so you may have gum disease, you may have tonsil stones, you may have halitosis, you may have cavities. But then what is this doing to the rest of the body? Because what happens in the mouth doesn't stay in the mouth. The bacteria don't just stay in the mouth. As I just mentioned, they can translocate down to the gut. But also if we have bleeding gums, so gum disease or periodontal disease, which is a more chronic state of gum disease. These bacteria can get into the circulatory system. You know, if your gums bleed, there's now a pathway for them to get into your circulatory system, into your lymphatic system, and they travel around the body and they end up in organs, distal organs that they shouldn't, where they cause an inflammatory cascade. So this is an inflammation issue and that can impact your immune health. They also, these bacteria release endotoxins and it can just have this cascade, you know, of lipopolysaccharides. Just issues that can lead to issues with your heart, your fertility. Okay, this is a big one, um, your joints. So rheumatoid arthritis, dysbiotic oral bacteria being linked to certain cancers like pancreatic cancer, colon cancer, even breast cancer, um, and then the brain. So there's a lot of data right now to show how pathogenic bacteria, particularly P. gingivalis, which it's a periodontal disease bacteria, can end up in the brain, um, end up in amyloid plaques, create neural inflammation. And they're, they're doing this by certainly physically crossing the blood-brain barrier, but also, um, they can translocate, they can actually migrate along your, your nerves, your olfactory nerve, your trigeminal nerve. And then not to mention all the toxins they release. And so, um, your oral health is profoundly important to protect other organ systems and to keep the body in balance. And I just think so many people, your, your dental health is just an afterthought. And I, I blame our industries for this. You know, the mouth— the dentistry went this way, medicine went this way. So patients just think they're separate, and dentistry tends to not be taken very seriously. Um, and I, I understand why, because we don't always think like physicians. We think more like technicians a little bit. We want to fix end-stage disease. We're kind of fixing holes in teeth, if you will. And some of that is deserved. I— we need both. Like, certainly we need to be able to fix and repair and do these microsurgeries every day. But if we're not looking at data and metrics in labs and testing the oral microbiomes and understanding the bioindividuality of our patient, we're never going to stop this disease cycle. And we see this with the chronic rampant chronic disease of oral health, even with advancements in oral healthcare products and hygiene and, and more access to care and more education, these are still the top chronic diseases. So clearly we're missing the mark.

Completely missing the mark. And I do think that this is a good point that you're making about the separation between dentistry and, and medicine where it seems like it's two separate things.

Mm-hmm.

One thing I wanna circle back on is you talking about intestinal permeability, increased intestinal permeability or leaky gut. And the reason I wanna circle back to it is because you had said that if you're not ab— if you have leaky gut and you're not absorbing the nutrients, then this can impact teeth development for babies, for women. And I do believe that, you know, there's a difference between eating nutritious foods and absorbing nutritious foods. And so a lot of people think because they're eating quote unquote healthy, especially in my audience, that that translates to the fact that you wouldn't have any nutrient deficiencies and that you're absorbing all of the nutrients that you're getting from nutrient-dense foods. But this is why it's so important to, to one, take a prenatal at least 3 months before getting pregnant. To, to look at your microbiome before getting pregnant to try, cuz you're passing that on to your, your child that impacts the teeth. And, and like you're talking about, not only the, the gut microbiome that you're passing on, but the oral microbiome composition and the, and needing to think about how so many people are walking around with leaky gut. That, that increases inflammation and also decreases your absorption of these nutrients that you're talking about are so important for, for oral health. So I, I just, I think that some people think, oh, I'm just healthy. And of course, like compared to most people, that typically does end up being the case. But the majority of nutrition consults that I have with people start out with, I'm like doing pretty well until we start to get into all of the little things where it's like, well, this picture is certainly pointing to higher levels of inflammation or higher levels of intestinal permeability or other things that you're talking about then impact others. One other thought that I have that's coming up is when we were at Kellogg's, when we went to the protest that you spoke at, you did such a great job of bringing to life. We were at the protest trying to get Kellogg's to remove food dyes from their cereal. And then they, you know, ignored us and someone posted a sign in the window saying, get off of our lawn. And you, when you spoke, had talked about how we have normalized cavities so much when cavities didn't actually exist however many years ago. Can you talk about that?

Yeah, what you just said was so amazing. Um, I will just add the, the first 1,000 days, that includes preconception. And what that phrase means is it, well, it can mean many things, but generally microbiome establishment in your, in your child. So it starts preconception, in pregnancy, post-delivery. It's really important to, to support and nurture yourself as much before you conceive, if possible, um, because that will translate into their oral health. And one other thought, many people do not realize that oral bacteria are transmissible. So if you yourself have gum disease or cavities, it, it can end up in your baby, in your child. You're inoculating them through sharing utensils, kissing on the lips. You know, we just, when we live in such close proximity, proximity, we tend to share microbiomes. So going back to, to that, so ancestrally, humans didn't suffer, um, from dental decay nearly to the degree that we do now. I can't say it was zero, but if we look at ancestral records, um, and literally if you go to the Natural History Museum, go and look at the skulls. It is so fascinating how humans have changed in such a short amount of time. So 12,000 years ago, we were still a fairly hunter-gatherer society, but then we transitioned into an agrarian society, and then the Industrial Revolution happened. So what happened during this trajectory? We started developing rampant dental decay. Um, and now here we are today, and it's just so normal, but it wasn't so long ago. And so most ancestral humans did not suffer from decay. And you can see this in the skulls. Their teeth are pristine. They had nice wide jaws, big wide palates, and their teeth had no decay. There was some periodontal disease, and we would see decay in areas maybe where there was very high fruit content or high honey content. But you have to remember, these things were seasonal, and we were just comp— and we were competing with the birds and the squirrels and the other animals. So we just weren't able to sip and snack and ingest these ultra-processed foods so much. And that is what has caused the cavity epidemic. It's not just sugar, it's also flour, it's fermentable carbohydrates. And so that's those things, fermentable carbohydrates, what feed pathogenic bacteria. But on top of that, all of the preservatives and the food dyes and the colorings and the additives, those are influencing your oral microbiome, um, and your gut microbiome. And we, we've just scratched the surface with some of this research, but if you can use critical thinking, you know, anything you put in your mouth is going to alter and shift the microbes towards health or towards dysbiosis. And putting these chemicals in your mouth is not doing you any service because most of them are acidic too. They're changing the pH of the mouth By shifting the pH of the mouth, you automatically— if it becomes more acidic, you're going to have more pathogenic bacteria. Pathogens love acid. Healthy bacteria love a neutral pH or even a slightly alkaline pH. So it's not just candy bars and soda. And this is something I can't emphasize enough: what really is causing a major part of our cavity epidemic are crackers like Goldfish crackers, chips, pretzels, granola bars, fruit snacks, fruit leathers, these frappuccinos. Think about your drinks too. Like, we sip and snack. Food is endless, drinks are endless, and we don't give our mouth a rest. So just like many of us know that perhaps we should give our gut a rest and help with the migrating motor complex, and it's just good to rest and digest. Okay. Our mouth should too. But instead, we— kids tend to be eating. A lot of people are parenting with food and keeping kids regulated with food, and it's not doing us any service because every time we eat these foods, our mouth does become acidic. It's part of the digestive process too. And part of this is normal. The pH should lower so that the lysozyme and the enzymes come in. We start to break our food down. It's part of the digestive process. It's the beginning. But what we're supposed to then allow our bodies to do is to stop eating, stop drinking, and allow the pH to naturally rise back up again. This will push minerals back into your teeth, and this is all done through your saliva. And so we need healthy saliva. So part of my mission with education is to make spit cool again. Like, we need to understand how important saliva is for your oral health and your digestive health. It's important for speech. It's important for, for digestion too, and it protects your teeth. And so if you have dry mouth or an imbalanced salivary content, there's not enough enzymes, there's not enough minerals in your saliva. If you're dehydrated, if you're mouth breathing, this will all impact your oral health. And these aren't things dentists normally speak to their patients about. One, because I don't think they have the education, but also I don't think they have the time. They haven't created the time to have these conversations. So instead we just say floss, brush, here's some fluoride, see you in 6 months. But that is not working. Okay? And so we have to be taking a step back and, and thinking foundationally and upstream. And again, to me, that comes back to functional medicine and just tying the body together again.

Yes. And you're right. I mean, most of the time you go to a traditional dentist and None of these things are being addressed. I thought about that even when you're talking about being able to identify zinc deficiency and celiac disease and other things that I'm sure you learned nothing about in your conventional dentistry training when you were in dentist school. And like how, how pervasive it probably is where people are going into the dentist, they're missing all these signs and they're being sent on the way because the dentist might even be struggling with it themselves and not even realizing it with how little attention there is.

Absolutely. You know what's interesting too, we, we are exposed to some of this basic, like, signs and symptoms of nutritional deficiencies, but then dentistry, dental school is so interesting because the first couple of years are didactic. You're basically in courses all day, but the second half is all lab. You're working on little plastic heads and fake teeth, and then you transition into clinic and you're seeing patients. And so a lot of that didactic, it's just forgotten about. And if your faculty aren't bringing it back into the conversation, you're just figuring brain, how do I do the best filling? How can I make sure that my faculty like checks me off on today so I can get out of here? You know, that's just the reality of it. And so we need a deeper dive and we need to make sure that it's continued on in the education. But yeah, I mean, we, you can see so much in the mouth and to your point, and this is no shade to my colleagues, I was there too. Many dentists are quite unhealthy. We have a pretty unhealthy profession. It's very high stress, it's high pressure. Many dentists are also running the businesses. So you are the, the producer, but you're also managing the practice, the 401s, the HR, the hiring. I mean, you have people help you, but it's a lot. It's a lot. And so, and we're isolated, we're inside all day, we're hunched over, we're exposed to aerosolized mercury and microplastics. And pretty caustic chemicals depending how you're practicing. And so that also is what led me on my path is that in 2020, this is very common story, we all had kind of a reawakening. Dentistry in particular was shut down for 3+ months. So I was out of work. I was sitting at home bored and distraught and saying, what am I doing? And I literally looked at, I mean, literally looked in the mirror and I was like, you are so unhealthy. I was so inflamed, um, I was so sick, but I had been so busy and so turn and burn, I didn't have a moment to stop and to take a breath and to really realize you're not well. And so where did I find health? Functional medicine. And I had— my hormones were so dysregulated, my HPA axis, I had rampant parasites, um, my cortisol was— I mean, I was just a mess. And so I found healing through functional medicine too, and it was so profoundly valuable for me, of course. And then once I could heal myself, then I just became a better healer for my patients too. And so, um, I think providers in general, there's just so much burnout, but it's really important. We have to be taking better care of ourselves. And, and, and oftentimes the conventional system fails us simply because, to your point earlier, We don't have enough metrics and data. I mean, we— it's important to run labs on your patients to understand, yes, you're eating a healthy diet, but are you utilizing and absorbing the nutrients? I, I have such a hard time staying vitamin D optimized, and I focus on it like it's my job, but I have a genetic predisposition that I, you know, I just don't I, I blow through it very quickly. Same with magnesium. And so, and I recently found out I was omega-3 deficient, which I, I shouldn't be, but I am. And so you, we just, you don't know. And I always believe in test, don't guess. And this goes along with oral health too. And I think dentists need to be more comfortable ordering and reading labs for their patients, you know, where it's appropriate. But there's a lot of lab work that is incredibly important to know for oral health.

Yeah, it's so true. It's so true. And I would say too, like, at minimum, because there was a, a fun— or there was a conventional practice in, in Jacksonville that we went to many times that started referring patients to us even to be like, we, we understand, you know, they did like a more comprehensive intake and things like that than I've ever had done before. But they were like, we also understand that like it wasn't necessarily a focus of their practice. So to be able to recognize that, okay, maybe you don't know everything about nutrition, but like there are resources that are out there that can help to, to optimize it too.

It has to be an integrative approach. No one knows everything. We have to create a network and a community of providers. That's how we're going to really help support our patients.

I couldn't agree more. Okay, I want to switch gears to fluoride because this was like the really big thing that I wanted to have a conversation about with you coming on. So you did an amazing episode on Andrew Huberman's podcast where you talked about the concerns with fluoride and fluoride fluoridation of water. I was texting you after being like, that was so brave because it was such a large platform for you to, you know, like really talk about these things that go against the, you know, your board certifying entity and the majority of dentists and how they believe or how they think or how they're trained to believe, let's say. Can you talk to us about the harms of fluoridation in water?

Yeah, thank you. I was so nervous for that podcast, by the way, for so many reasons. I can't imagine. That was one. I mean, it's— it— okay, let me start out. This is important part of the story. So traditionally trained, I was traditionally trained. I was a huge fluoride advocate, so much so that I, you know, I moved from Boston and worked in many fluoridated areas there in Boston. I moved to Portland, Oregon, which is not fluoridated. We do not vote it in. It comes up every once in a while for vote. And so it was up for vote again in like 2011, 2012. And I actually volunteered for the pro-water fluoridation campaign. I was picketing and handing out buttons and wearing the swag and very judgmental of those that didn't want it in the water. And I remember thinking, This is the reason we have a decay epidemic. Like, there, there's so much harm happening here. Look at these children, like, they're gonna suffer and access to care and all the, the things that you hear people say in support of it. I said too, I was saying this because, not because of critical reasoning, because that is what I was taught in school verbatim, hearing these phrases that you just kind of rinse and repeat, like saying to your patient, oh, you must have grown up in a fluoridated area. Your teeth look so great. There's no objective science or data behind that. I— you see plenty of patients who have beautiful teeth that don't grow up in fluoridated areas. It's just what you say, um, conversationally, but there's no data to support that. So anyway, I went to this debate, um, it was the pro versus the anti-fluoride debate here in Portland. Again, it was like 2012, and, um, I was sitting on the pro side and I was looking at those ready to speak out against fluoridation with such judgment, thinking, oh, what, it's the tin hat brigade and these woo-woos, and like, what are they doing, these pseudoscientists? And I was blown away with their talks, um, scientific citations and things I had never been exposed to before, like the links with that, you know, fluoride is considered a neurotoxin. Fluoride actually isn't excreted completely in the body, that a majority of it, especially in kids, a majority can be stored in calcifying tissues, um, that it is a very reactive element, okay, um, it's a halide, so, um, and that it can affect your thyroid, it can lead to um, fluorosis, not only of the teeth but of your bone, your skeletal system, and also that it is antimicrobial and it's damaging the microbiome, including the gut and the oral microbiome. It just— it doesn't— it's not selective. It can kill your healthy bacteria too. So I had this aha moment. I literally— jaw was agape. And I went home and I felt gutted, truly gutted. Um, and I didn't know who I was anymore. And so I dug deep into the research on— I was on PubMed, NIH, just gathering so much. It didn't take long for me to take a pause and say, my gosh, I think we're getting this wrong. And I really take the do no harm philosophy of my oath seriously. And at that point, I was a pediatric dentist, so I am taking care of children, um, and I have to make recommendations kind of with, with beyond a reason of reasonable doubt to make, to say to parents that is safe. Okay. And we do not have any data that water fluoridation truly is safe because of the cumulative effects of it. You know, you're ingesting it because of the halo effect of fluoride. Now, what does that mean? Um, you might drink a glass of fluoridated water a day. I might drink 10 glasses a day. I might also be using fluoride toothpaste and swallowing a bit. I may also be doing a rinse and swallowing a bit. Many people don't realize many pharmaceuticals have fluoride in them. Okay, that's important. It's used as a, as a stabilizer. It's— that's— people don't realize that. So you're getting it there. It's in a lot of processed foods. Okay. Any food that's made in a factory that's fluoridated, they're not using reverse osmosis in these factories to get fluoride out. So soups and drinks and, you know, your Gatorade, all these things, they have fluoride in them. It's also found in trace amounts naturally in some foods. Now, the difference in our foods is those foods usually also have polyphenols and phytonutrients that help protect us from that fluoride ion too. So there's a cumulative effect, the halo effect, that this is what conveniently I think my profession ignores. No one's saying if you drink a glass of fluoridated water you're going to have a health issue. It's the— it's the rain barrel effect. It's what— well, what if you're exposed to it, swallowing it day after day, week after week, month after month, decade after decade, then what is it doing? And knowing that so many of us are exposed to different levels. So, um, anyway, there was a federal trial, it's the people versus the EPA, it was called the TSCA trial. And, um, it went on for years, 7 years plus. And, and the judge finally made a verdict and he said there is, this was a federal trial and it's important to know, I do not wanna bring politics into this. At all, but it was an Obama-appointed judge. I think that's important to know. He said there is an unreasonable risk to our current water fluoridation practice due, you know, concerns with brain health. And there are many studies that are showing that— really high-quality studies that are showing links to neurocognitive issues, IQ drops, as well as thyroid issues, etc. Um, there's an unreasonable risk to the way we're fluoridating right now. And he said, EPA, you need to do something about this, um, because there aren't any safety studies. And what was really interesting with that trial is they had expert witnesses on, and I encourage anyone, if they're interested, you can go to the Fluoride Action Network and they have the entire trial recorded, and you can watch these expert testimonies. I mean, it will take you many, many, many hours. But these are not dentists. These are epidemiologists, endocrinologists, and not the dental community, because the dental community is only talking about teeth. They're not talking about the rest of the body. And that's my argument. Yes, fluoride, if applied topically, can make our teeth more acid resistant. Remember I told you earlier, it's really acid that can be so damaging. It can make your teeth more acid resistant, like a little armor. But that's topical application, that's toothpaste, rinses, varnishes. We do not need to be swallowing it. And I even learned this at, at dental school, at Tufts Dental School 20 years ago. They were teaching us that fluoride works topically, not systemically. And so, and the data supports that. So the United States is one of the last countries to still fluoridate our water. And our decay rate, um, is not any better than countries without fluoridated water. There is no difference. And the World Health Organization supports that. There's data that support water fluoridation really isn't doing what we think it is doing. And in fact, there was a new Cochrane Collaborative report that came out over a year ago that said the same, that water fluoridation actually, when we look at the data, it's only reducing cavities by about 1/4 to 1/3 cavity per person. That is not statistically significant and that this is a failed practice. This is something we do not need to be doing. But if we want to be suggesting patients use it topically due to access to care issues, like not everyone has access to some of these alternatives like hydroxyapatite or theobromine. Fair enough, you know, um, but be aware that it shouldn't be swallowed and that it could be damaging the oral microbiome. Okay. And so There's a lot more I could get into there, but again, I am— it's a do no harm. We— it doesn't even work, and we don't have any safety data. So I think we are just creating this narrative that if we take it away, cavities are going to skyrocket. And there's many countries where we have data to show that is not what happened. People are going to reference some situations in Canada, some studies. I can break each of those down critically, why those studies were, um, poorly adopted studies or were misinterpreting the data. So if you look at other countries like Japan and Europe, etc., the decay rate of a fluoridated country versus an unfluoridated country is no different. And I can tell you clinically, I've worked in communities that are fluoridated, I've worked in communities that are unfluoridated, I have patients that use fluoride, I have patients that don't. You cannot tell the difference. It, it isn't about the fluoride, it's about their lifestyle factors, it's about their diet, it's about their nutrition, it's about how they're breathing. And unfortunately, a lot of these, um, socioeconomically deprived communities, they are eating a lot of ultra-processed foods like So, you know, drinking soda and eating all the chips and the cookies and the fast food, etc. And my point is, no amount of fluoride is going to protect you from Big Food. Big Food is the villain. I go to war with Big Food every single day. Every time I have to put a child under anesthesia because they have rampant decay, I cuss in my mind at Big Food, um, because I now have to wear, carry that burden that day and that poor family that's out in the waiting room that this was a preventable issue and that those people in the ivory tower did this to that child. Um, and it's criminal. I really think it's criminal. And it's criminal decay. It is criminal. And cavities are preventable. It is not a fluoride deficiency issue. This is a food nutrition issue. This is an ultra-processed food issue. This is an inflammation issue. This is we're not breathing right. This is our environment, environmental toxins. All the things that are creating our chronic disease epidemic are also guilty for our chronic dental health epidemic.

What kind of pushback did you get from the episode that you did with Andrew Huberman?

Great question. You know, it wasn't that bad. Haters are gonna hate, and those few are loud. Um, but some of the, most of the comments are pretty comical. Like, it was either directly trying to insult me personally, like my my hair or my glasses, um, which is so wild. But, you know, I got some like, she's a pseudoscientist, don't believe her, what a wackadoo.

I saw a comment about how you're a pediatric dietitian— or not dietitian, sorry, but pediatric dentist, um, which— so, so my— I guess the reason I'm asking the question is like, what could the argument be against what you're saying?

That it could cause a lot of harm. Like, taking fluoride out of our water or having these conversations is going to skyrocket the disease, the decay epidemic, which, to your point, it's already, it's already so high. I just disagree with that completely. There's no data to support that. But also, I don't disagree that with— I've seen these arguments like, okay, then what's the solution? I get that. Like, we need to have better access to care, better education. Like in Japan, what they did, they now offer fluoride rinse in schools. Like the kids just rinse with fluoride. Their diet's a lot better there too. And people will criticize that. They'll say, well yeah, in Japan they eat healthier. Okay, well can we get Americans eating healthier too? Can we create programs and incentives and stop subsidizing the wrong things and like create a campaign? Pain, to really focus on nutrition and diet. And the, the good news is, this is the blessing, I think, a bit of social media, is I think people are exposed to this now. There is a shift, and it's hard because these foods are addictive. They are. And we're battling that, um, and, and food scarcity. I, I respect and understand all these arguments, but I also am of the mindset, do no harm. And I don't just think of teeth. Teeth are the last thing I think of in my patients, to be honest with you, especially baby teeth. I mean, they do fall out. Um, they're important, don't get me wrong, but like you have one opportunity to grow a brain, one, one opportunity to grow a face, one op— you know, ch— those early childhood formative years are really important. And so I also believe this is a whole other comment is that it should be a choice. Like this, we don't have consent from patients, informed consent. This is a medicament that's being put in our water and people aren't familiar or even aware of some of the risks to it. Um, and so I think you should have a choice as a parent. And, um, I personally have never given my children fluoride. Their teeth are great. You know, why is that? Well, yeah, people say genetics and sure, there's some of that, but no, it's because the food, their exposures. I was able and fortunate enough to recognize airway issues in them early. We're very on top of our hygiene. We take our oral health very seriously and also our nutrition. And I don't want to be, you know, too idealistic here, but topical fluoride works great. So if a parent wants to use toothpaste and rinse, I prefer alternatives, and that's usually what I recommend, but I respect that, and I respect providers that might want to be marketing and suggesting that to patients. So to me, it's more about the systemic influences of water fluoridation and having it in our water, and I think it's— it should be taken out. And think how many people filter their water. You know, most of these dentists who are saying we need fluoride in our water, they filter it out. They filter it out. They have water filters at home.

So when you're drinking, let's— I just wanna get into the like nitty-gritty so that people can really understand how this is impacting them. So if you, if you have well water, it doesn't have fluoride in it, correct?

You, some might, you could test it, but my argument with that is it would be trace amounts. It would be a more natural form of fluoride. Okay. Um, there's sodium fluoride, there's calcium fluoride. But also you have all those other minerals in there which can, could, can counteract any the negative impacts of that, that negative ion and that the neurotoxicity too. So you can test your water. I wouldn't worry too much if you have trace amounts of fluoride in your well water. But in municipalities, what's interesting, they use, they use something called hydrofluorosilicic acid. That's what's used in these water plants, and that is actually a byproduct of the phosphate fertilizer industry. Um, so the biggest common, I would say, a criticism I get is dose makes the poison. Dose makes the poison. And that's true, dose does make the poison. And my counterargument to that is the halo effect. How are we titrating and regulating how much systemic fluoride someone's being exposed to on a day. And you have to factor in body weight, body composition.

Yes.

What is their metabolism like? You know, what is their terrain like? What is their overall health like? And so this is the argument that was made and is why I think the judge made the decision he did. So the EPA itself, under oath during that federal trial, the expert— I have forgotten his name— he was asked, well, what is the margin of safety in water fluoridation? What should it be? And he said 10x. It should be a 10x delta. And what does that mean? So right now we fluoridate our water at 0.7 milligrams per liter. Okay. Most of the data shows at 1.2 to 1.5 milligrams per liter. That is where we are seeing some issues with IQ. And most of the legitimate researchers out there, even if they're pro-water fluoridation, they'll say yes, okay, at 1.5 milligrams per liter, but we fluoridate at 0.7, so we're fine. Okay, so a 10x threshold— if let's just say we all agree 1.5 is the place that it's dangerous, so that means at a 10x safety margin we should be fluoridating at 0.15 milligrams per liter, but we do it at, at 0.7. And so we're just over-fluoridating. And why do we need this window of safety? It's for vulnerable populations, is for people with genetic predispositions, iodine deficiency, calcium deficiency. People can be sensitive and allergic to fluoride. You know, everyone reacts differently. So pregnant women, infants. And so the concern is during pregnancy, especially in those formative years, a lot of babies might be given formula with fluoridated water bottles. And so how much are they being exposed to and how is that impacting their gut microbiome? That's a big conversation. Whether you believe in the neurotoxic effects or not, can we all agree about the gut microbiome is important? I mean, that seems pretty non-controversial to me.

And that you don't want to be giving— exposing the microbiome to an antimicrobial that has the ability to kill off, like, the healthiest bacteria that's the most important for supporting their immune system lifelong. Yeah, that is right. It is crazy when you put it in that way. So if a person is— it has a water filter, it's, it's filtering out the fluoride, is that right?

Or not always? Depends on the filter. It depends on the filter. So certainly reverse osmosis will. Check with your filter. Some market that they filter everything out, but if you dig into it deeper, you realize it doesn't filter fluoride out. Fluoride can be tricky to filter out there. I like Clearly Filtered. That, that is a pitcher unit. It's an under sink unit. That's a great at-home one that's more affordable. But reverse osmosis generally is the best. The issue with reverse osmosis, you have to be adding minerals back into your diet. And so you have to be supplementing because it can do some damage by stripping you of minerals if not. So that's really important.

Yeah, that's a good point. And then for— how old are your kids?

Uh, two girls that are 10 and 12.

And so your kids, you said, have not been exposed to fluoride. Is that in any sense like you're not, you're not actually applying it? When you say applying it topically, you mean like brushing it on the teeth like the dentist?

Like either using a fluoride toothpaste or rinse or You know how the dentist has the varnish?

Yes.

Um, yeah, they haven't been. Mm-hmm.

Okay. So for, for parents out there like myself, I have a 1 and 2-year-old where we, we have no plans of doing any fluoride varnish. We have no plans of, you know, we have, we have well water, we have reverse osmosis filter in our house. Like they have no exposure. We use your fig toothpaste, which I highly recommend. I love, um, your toothpaste that has the hydroxy— hydroxyapatite.

Yep.

That's awesome. Um, so that to you, like on a extremely low sugar slash like no sugar up until the year of 2 years old. Mm-hmm. Super nutrient dense. Mm-hmm. Breast milk, all those kinds of things where we're also factoring in like their, their airway health and I'm trying to, to pay attention to that. That there really is no reason to have fluoride in that instance.

In my opinion, and this is based on 20 years of clinical practice and then also being a mom, no, no. I mean, keep it— make sure you're going to the dentist regularly. And, you know, some of us do have gut health. I mean, it can be so many things. So you could have got— if you have yeast, Candida, or gut health issues, potentially you might want to use some— if you're high risk, use some topical fluoride. But, but if you're low risk, you don't need it. And that's the other issue, is dentists are supposed to be doing a risk assessment. So not everyone is supposed to be on fluoride. It was supposed to be for moderate and high risk patients, but now everybody gets it. Like, you get it and you get it and you get it and you get it, and it's everywhere. Everything has fluoride. It's just too much. And we're also just missing the underlying conversation of why Why are there issues in the child to begin with? But I think if you're doing well and your child is cavity free and they're healthy and thriving and they're hydrated, no, you do not need it. I haven't used fluoride 25 years. Wow. I mean, college, I was reading about this, you know, I read about this in like some yoga book that I was reading just about how fluoride's a neurotoxin and it can affect the thyroid. and I was like, oh, I don't, not really interested in that. So I stopped using it cuz I, you know, I knew my diet and lifestyle were pretty dialed and I haven't had a cavity, but I'm my, I don't eat a lot of sugar. I don't eat a lot of fermentable carbohydrates. I don't eat crackers and like sticky chewy carbs. I don't like the way they feel in my teeth. I don't like how they get stuck in my teeth and how they like scratch the roof of your mouth. I just don't like eating that consistency of food. It feels unnatural to me and it is. Um, and I will say my kids, you know, people will say, well, what am I supposed to feed my kids? Fair point, but there's a lot. So, um, these are things I feed my family for snacks in particular. That's where a lot of this comes in. So we would do seaweed snacks, we would do cheese sticks if you can eat dairy, we would do, um, you know, different chunks of meat, you know, salami, pickles. Olives, carrots and veggies and hummus and fruit. Um, not dried fruit, real fruit. It can be frozen. Um, hard-boiled eggs. Um, you'll find nuts and seeds. Like there, mm-hmm, there's a lot out there. That in of itself, I usually make like our charcuterie board of food for the kids and it kind of has all the food groups there and they get to kind of pick and choose. And that's what, that's a fun way to eat and consume. But they get all their food groups. There's plenty to eat. And these— a lot of these foods can be on the go. So like seaweed snacks can be on the go, and a banana is on the go, and a cheese stick or an apple can be on the go. And that's the other issue— we're not chewing enough. And I can segue this into airway. So up to 80 to 90% of humans aren't breathing optimally. And so why is this? That's a staggering number. A lot of it has to do with chronic allergies and inflammation, but also, so that's soft tissue, but also we structurally are changing. Human skulls and jaws are changing and they have been over the past 12,000 years. And so the same thing, what has changed? We went from hunter-gatherer to agrarian to the Industrial Revolution. And what changed during that was our, how much we chew. So we used to chew when we had to forage, and before we were, you know, braising and slow cooking meat and things, we had to chew for many hours. They estimate anthropologists 4 to 5 hours a day, and that— and plus we were also breastfeeding for many years. So that act of breastfeeding and chewing, it, it forces the jaws out, it lateralizes the, the tongue, and it grows the face broad and wide. So you have these nice wide jaws that your tongue can fit in and the teeth are perfectly straight. And so again, if you go to a natural history museum, look at the skulls, not only for decay, but also that all the teeth fit, they're perfectly straight. There's room for the wisdom teeth. So what has changed in such a relatively short amount of time in human history is our food. And so our jaws are shrinking. Okay. This is why you see so much crowding. Um, in teeth, it's, it's not the tooth issue, it's the jaws. Our skulls are collapsing. And so if I took your face and smushed it this way, you know, the teeth are going to have to get crowded to fit in, but also your nasal septum is going to deviate, so now you can't breathe through your nose. Your sinuses shrink this way, so now you don't have enough sinus, um, volume. And you have small airways. And so what does that lead to? It leads to mouth breathing. Um, and this is a, this is an epidemic. This is an epidemic in kids. This is an epidemic in adults. And this is part of functional dentistry too, is, um, understanding airway dentistry and, and finding the issues early in life so we can course correct. 'Cause again, as I mentioned, you have one shot to grow a brain. You have one shot to grow a face. So if we intervene early while a child is still malleable and growing, we can do different retainer therapies, what have you, and we can grow that face big and wide again. Not only will the teeth have room to fit in, or more so, but their airways will be expanded. And now you, with some myofunctional therapy or some rehabilitation, like breathing rehabilitation, you can become a mouth— sorry, a nose breather again. There's a really great book called Breath by James Nestor.

I love that.

If people are interested in us, it is my favorite book of all time. It's partly why I'm doing what I do. Um, but my own daughter had major airway issues too, and it was affecting her, um, mood. She started having ADHD signs and symptoms and, and, um, she was very reactive and she was in constant fight or flight because throughout the night she was waking up multiple times, kind of choking, gasping, tossing and turning. Because she wasn't breathing optimally. And so we also know patients that breathe through their mouth, they're more prone to cavities and they're more prone to gum disease and they're more prone to tonsil stones and, and bad breath. And so, um, if a dentist—

also, I feel like a common one that I hear too is bedwetting and, uh, learning disabilities.

Yes, yes. And the bedwetting is because when you're in your deeper stages of sleep, this is where antidiuretic hormone is released. And so kids bypass that. They don't get that, that, that level of sleep. And so their body kind of wakes up. They have this microarousal and they can bed wet. And that goes for growth hormone too. And a lot of these kids end up having pretty small stature. Not failure to thrive necessarily, but some do. They also can be micronutrient deficient. There's usually a lot of oxidative stress. They have vitamin D deficiency, iron deficiency, magnesium deficiency. It's a big deal. And so because they're not restoring and resting appropriately, they're not getting into their sleep cycles and sleep stages, and that can affect brain development. Absolutely. And so you're, you tend to be in fight or flight constantly. So you sometimes get pegged with ADHD when actually it's an airway issue. And so as we can see, it's all interconnected. And how you breathe, I honestly think is if I were to pick one thing, someone made me pick one thing about health that was the most important, I really think it's how we're breathing and sleeping. I think it's foundational to everything.

Mm-hmm. I couldn't agree more. I actually had a Christmas decorate, a Christmas cookie decorating party, uh, in December with a bunch of my mom friends that are all like healthcare practitioners that are practicing functional medicine or integrative in some way. And so we had like 14 kids and it was of course being Brigid style with like a grain-free, low-sugar cookie dough and stuff like that. But then all the moms were standing around the counter talking about their, like, either getting their kids in expanders or starting to see a biological dentist in order to get their kids into expanders. And I was like, this is exactly how I want to spend a Saturday, like having our kids enjoying decorating Christmas cookies with like no dyes, very minimal added sugar, all the things. And then the mom standing here talking about functional dentistry for our kids and getting them in expanders.

I love it. And you know what though? I'm gonna add this, like moms, we have so much to navigate. It, it truly feels unfair. And 100 years ago, I mean, 50 years ago, our elders didn't have to have these conversations. Like it's so, it's stressful. It really is until you get pegged like, oh, she's crunchy, she's woo woo. We didn't have the environmental pollutants that we do now. We didn't have all this garbage in our food. We, you know, so much is different and it's not fair. And it's nice to find your community. And at the end of the day, we all want what's best is to have healthy, thriving children. We wanna set them up for the best possible life that we can. And I, it, it upsets me and it bums me out. I see so many women. That have so much anxiety and, and just are carrying this heavy burden because it does seem so overwhelming at times. So I just want to reiterate that everyone, you're all doing a beautiful job taking care of your babies. And, um, if you're thinking differently, you're— you are on the right track and I support you. And find your community and try just to chip away at it. Don't let it weigh you down. Like, some of this stuff is just getting back to the basics. It doesn't doesn't have to be big and elaborate, you know. And then find the providers that truly support you and elevate you, you know. And they're out there, and, and we're working hard to train more. So, um, I feel very hopeful about what's coming in, in healthcare, um, these next few years.

I love that message. You're right, because it is a lot to navigate. And I do think a step-by-step approach of continuing to— like, you, you start with removing your plastic Tupperware, and then you make the step to getting a water filter, and then you make a step, you know, it's like the continual improvements that we can make. But I do think that what will age well is not having anxiety going against the grain. Like, this is what I feel like having even this community and the messaging that we're continuing to put out is like that you aren't in it alone and that there is a group of people who are thinking completely different than what your conventional norm is, and that we don't have to fall subject to that conventional norm that leads to the pervasive nature of disease development for our kids and, and for ourselves, quite frankly.

Yeah. I love that.

I even think about my mom who like went against the grain on everything and, you know, didn't listen to the conventional doctors when they said that there was nothing to do that with the neurological autoimmune disease that I was diagnosed with at 14 and took me to a functional medicine doctor at 14.

Mm-hmm.

That like, you know, there was no internet, there was no Whole Foods, there was, We were going to the library to look at books. There, there wasn't blogs and things, but like that was the best. Even though it was so hard for her to do what she did and she had no support and she had no one to write about to it online and no one to talk about it with in person outside of like maybe my dad and my grandpa. It was like the best thing she could have ever done. And I feel like, you know, we have that obligation, um, and the resources today more than ever before, right? With, like you said, the information with the Whole Foods, with Amazon delivery, like in some ways it also has never been easier than it has been today with like, you know, more, more health-conscious brands that are coming out with labeling around like no added sugar pouches and things that actually didn't exist for, for at least my mom.

Totally. She's so— that's true bravery right there. And you know, yes, knowledge is power. This, all these concepts are just meant to be educational to help support and lift up our next generations. I'm so happy that she found those resources for you. I mean, that is true bravery 'cause it is so hard. It can feel very isolating. But my other message is, you know your child better than anyone, better than any provider. And of course we wanna look to our medical, you know, our medical providers for guidance and education, If something doesn't feel right for you, please, I just say trust your instincts and always get a second opinion. And, you know, I think it bothers me when I hear other colleagues say, oh yeah, she came in with like her Google research, you know? I learned so much from my patients. I mean, I—

Yes.

These parents out there are badass. Like you are all doing an amazing job and don't let anyone speak down to you about that. Able to access this information just as much as that doctor can. Now, we might be able to kind of piece it together and, and, and understand some of the data and the literature a little bit more, but, um, don't second-guess yourself. You know your baby's the best.

Yes. I love that. Okay. I wanna talk about toothpaste, mouthwash, and teeth whitening, um, to wrap it up. So talk to us about toothpaste and the concerns with modern-day toothpaste and why the toothpaste that you developed, which I'm obsessed with, and this is not sponsored. I pay for it myself. We buy it in bulk actually on Fullscript. But talk to us about why that is a superior choice.

Thank you. A lot of toothpaste, aside from the fluoride, which I think we dug into, the— there's a lot of emulsifiers and surfactants and preservatives and additives and stabilizers and flavorings and colorings and all the things that we see in our food too in your toothpaste. And those things are not serving you. What are they doing to the microbiome? They can dry out your oral tissues. They can lead to, you know, ulcerations and things. Your kids might be swallowing it. So what is that doing downstream? So I want everyone to start reading their toothpaste and oral healthcare product ingredients just like you read your food labels. I mean, you're putting it in your body, you know, so it's really important. And Luckily, to your point, more brands are getting cleaner and cleaner, which I very much appreciate. You know, I love the concept to take an existing product and make it better. There were clean brands out there, but we found that they still had those foaming agents and like too, too high of essential oils. So essential oils can be very antimicrobial. They're very powerful and we want them time and place, but not necessarily on a daily regimen, especially if you don't have disease. So. We just cleaned up the formulation. We use hydroxyapatite in our formula, which is calcium and phosphorus. There's a lot of data behind it. It's been used for almost 60 years now and is pretty much the gold standard in Japan. And it's used a lot in Europe, Italy, etc., and it's approved by the SCCS in the EU, etc., and the health ministries in Japan and Italy. And then the important thing for me, my passion is the microbiome. And so we added prebiotics that are targeting healthy oral bacteria into the toothpaste too, so that you're getting this daily exposure twice a day to these prebiotics, which can, which can help boost and modulate the oral microbiome. So I, you know, I would just look for a cleaner brand, you know, but the caveat is we have to also use things that our kids will use or that we like the taste of and So you find balance there. But I try to stay away from that burn and foam sensation that so many of us have been programmed to say, oh, this means my mouth is clean. That burning after you brush and all that foaming, that's just wiping out your microbiome. It is wiping it out. And maybe some people tolerate that okay, and this is where the— where terrain comes in and the underlying health issues a patient has. But with some people, it just creates this vicious cycle of oral health issues, and they don't realize it. Stomach back rate to their toothpaste that they use every day. And so they go into the dentist, they get shamed and blamed that they're not brushing enough, they're not flossing enough, but it really could be the product that you're using. Um, so just be mindful of that. And regarding mouthwash, you know, there's more studies I see, it's all over social media now, which is great, this messaging, but these really strong antiseptic alcohol-based mouthwashes. Can reduce your nitric oxide-producing bacteria. And so that can reduce your nitric oxide levels in your body. That affects cardiovascular health. And the data can show it can increase blood pressure. It can, it can contribute to erectile dysfunction. And so we want to be cautious. We don't need these strong agents to be wiping out the microbiome. I think if you start thinking, is this nourishing my microbiome or is this damaging my microbiome, then it can help you make decisions with products. So people will always say, well, what do I use for rinse? Instead, I'm a less is more philosophy, and I just like baking soda and water. You could occasionally oil pull with either sesame oil or, you know, again, organic raw coconut oil. Um, that can be helpful for people. I would only do it a couple times a week. I can't emphasize flossing enough. Please prioritize flossing. It's more important than brushing. I will die on this hill. And partly because it's not food. Everyone thinks, oh, I, I don't have food in my teeth. Well, you do, you just don't see it. It's, it's microscopic particles, but it's removing the biofilm. So that biofilm, that plaque, it comes and it sticks on our teeth every day. So this feels like purgatory, I understand, but we have to do this every day. You wanna shake the carpet. So we're trying to get the biofilm off the teeth so it's not sticking there long enough to release acid to the point to the length of time where minerals are pulled out of the tooth to the point where you get a hole in your tooth. So if you, if plaque sits there day after day, week after week, month after month, mm-hmm, and it's releasing acid and it's sucking the minerals outta your tooth, eventually your tooth will just cave in and it's gonna have a hole in it. And that's what a cavity is. It's a cavitation and it is from acid and it's from acid sitting against your tooth too long. So that's where brushing and flossing come in and we don't want those bacteria sticking there long enough to release that acid to cause this, this problem. And this is where remineralization, or healing cavities, is a true concept. So those initial stages before the cavity actually becomes a hole, okay, you have what's called demineralization. And sometimes you can see this on an x-ray, you just see a little dark shadow where minerals have been pulled out of the tooth but not enough to create a hole yet. So those are called incipient lesions. They're very small, but it's a warning sign. It's like an early cavity, and those can be healed. Those can be reversed and remineralized. Ideally, I like to use hydroxyapatite. Some people might want to use high-dose fluoride. Theobromine can work really well. The data of that's strong. That's from cacao or from chocolate, and there's toothpaste out there using theobromine. But you want to be cautious with marketing. I see a lot of toothpaste out there right now marketing that they're the best. And I look at the ingredients and there's no active ingredient in there. There's nothing that's gonna actually remineralize your teeth. So in my theory, you're wasting your money. You'd be just as well brushing with baking soda and water.

So in the active ingredient, the active ingredient in your FIG toothpaste is the hydroxyapatite.

Hydroxyapatite. Yes.

And when you say that when a person has a cavity and then you could remineralize it with either high doses of fluoride or hydroxyapatite, are you talking about a varnish? Like, something that a dentist is applying topically, or are you talking about just something, some other version?

You could use your toothpaste, could do it at home in theory. Now, it, I encourage everyone, make sure you're working with a dentist on this because if we don't understand the why, it's gonna be hard to, to fix it. So why is the cavity there to begin with? And we need to change that. Is it that you weren't flossing? Okay, fair enough. So start flossing please, because you could be doing all these things just what I said about fluoride against big food. If you're not changing the big food component, the fluoride's not gonna do anything. It can't compete with these, this carpet bombing the mouth and throwing acid and sugar and flour in the mouth all the time. It's the same with healing a, a, a cavity. If you're not changing the why, it won't work. So if it's because you haven't been flossing, you have to start flossing and then you can push those minerals back back in. Um, if it's because your kid is snacking on Goldfish crackers all day, you have to cut those out or it's gonna be an uphill battle. You're not gonna get there. So you have to be committed. I mean, it's a commitment to heal cavities. There's no magic wand out there. There's no magic bullet. I wish there were, but these things take effort. Just like if you're healing your gut or healing other issues in your body, like it, it, it can be a bit of a commitment, but it's not The changes that you're making are only gonna help support your child throughout the rest of their life because now you're creating healthier habits in general. And that will translate not only from their, to their mouth, but to their whole body as well. So, you know, for example, Goldfish crackers aren't serving your child's systemic wellness either, or their, you know, their gut health or anything like that too. And of course we have to be realistic, like they're gonna go to Grandma and Grandpa's, they're gonna go to a birthday party. But what I used to do is I just kept my home, my home free of all of that. It just wasn't brought into the home. And I know they might be excited exposed to it outside of the home, but, um, we just do the best we can. But yeah, so the toothpaste, um, if caught early and you make those changes, and I suggest it being monitored by a dentist so it doesn't get out of control, you can, like, let's say the cavities between your teeth, you can put your toothpaste on the floss and floss it in between. There are varnishes out there, you know, FIG itself has a varnish. It's just an extra strength version of the toothpaste and you can buy that. That does work better cuz it's stronger. But you can have success with the toothpaste too.

Oh, that's good to know. Okay. So if a person walks into their dentist, maybe like with their kids, their kids eating like pretty healthy, the dentist says they have a cavity, they, and then you ask what's the severity of it? They say mild. Then you would recommend, like even if the dentist is saying let's, let's drill into the cavity or like fill the cavity, that the approach you would recommend asking the dentist about would be the remineralization process.

Yeah, you know, unfortunately not every dentist is going to agree with you on this.

Probably most dentists won't. That's why I think that like understanding how to talk through it is important.

Yeah. So what I would do first and foremost is ask to see the x-ray and have them show you the cavity, um, or just in the mouth. Now I will say a chewing surface cavity, that means in the grooves of your teeth, okay? The flat surfaces, those are really hard to remineralize. They're really, really hard. Because those grooves have these microscopic channels in them where bacteria can go and fester. It's almost impossible to clean them out unless you're using ozone gas consistently. Um, you can try it, but they, it's le— definitely less successful if it's on the chewing surface. Most cavities in humans, especially kids, are between the teeth. And so those heal pretty, pretty nicely, like smooth surface lesions on teeth heal well. And so I would say, hey doc, can I see the x-ray? And then say, how far into the enamel is that? Have them show you. If the cavity is still in the enamel, I would not drill that tooth. Absolutely not. You have a 100% opportunity to heal the tooth. Now, it might not work, but I think we should give it a try. And so then depending on the dentist's comfort level, they may wanna see you again in 3 months or 6 months to, to reassess it. Okay. To make sure it hasn't grown. I usually will go 6 months cuz I, I trust my families that come see me. They're very motivated. They're so on top of it. But you know, the dentist is gonna have to decide, do I really think you're gonna give up the Mountain Dew or not? You know? And so this is all part of the assessment. It's, we can't treat everyone the same. If the cavity is through that layer of enamel or right to the next layer, that's, it gets a little risky, but I still see success. Usually we don't heal the cavity, we arrest it, which means it freezes in time, or we really slow the growth of it. And I'm okay with this in many pediatric patients because they are going to lose that tooth eventually. So I have to decide, how much longer is this child going to have this tooth? If that child's 2 years old and they're going to have the tooth for 10 more years, then I might be a little more proactive and say, uh, Like we can monitor it a little bit longer, but it's probably gonna need a filling. If that child is 8, 9 years old and they're gonna lose that tooth in a year, I often will watch it. I always give the parent the choice. And of course most parents are like, no thanks, we don't want the filling. I don't want my child to go through that experience. So it's open conversations and, um, yeah, but I, I'll tell you, if the cavity is in the enamel, it's a smooth surface lesion, you have a very high likelihood with commitment to arresting and reversing them.

That is so helpful. Okay. I think that, that— well, let's, let's quickly touch on teeth whitening, natural ways to teeth whiten. And then I want to wrap it up with you talking about some of the work that you're currently focused on.

Yes, it's such an important thing because it's, it's important to people to have these bright white teeth. I first just encourage you to have realistic expectations with beauty standards. I unfortunately think so many of us look to celebrities for our standard standards. And I want everyone to remember that many of them have veneers and many of them are filtered. So a lot of the bright white teeth that you're seeing are not real and it's just not a natural tooth color. I mean, teeth do have a little bit of a yellow hue to them naturally. Now, I understand that this isn't the aesthetic that we're at right now in our society, and I want everyone to feel confident and happy. So the concern with most bleaching is that it's just very abrasive, it's very caustic, and we're overdoing it and cause tooth sensitivity. It will disrupt the microbiome. And if you overdo it, you can cause nerve damage. That being said, I think if used cautiously and occasionally, it can be fine. So people will say to me, what's a safer way to bleach? Well, there are white strips in a brand called Lumenoo, and we'll tag it in the show notes, and they use more herbs and things to help brighten and whiten the teeth, but you're not going to get a glowing white result. You are going to have to use like a peroxide-based product for that. I mean, big bang for your buck, Crest and Colgate White Strips work well. Um, I don't always love promoting those brands, but if this is important to you and you have a tween or a teen that's, you know, on your case about this stuff, you can try it. But please don't overdo it. Just use it every other week, once a month. Don't use it every day. You know, I see these TikTok challenges where people are putting hydrogen peroxide straight in their mouth every day and their teeth are so white, and I'm just thinking, oh my gosh, what are you doing to your microbiome and your nerve health? Like, you're going to need root canals.

Um, but what about like doing hydrogen peroxide on your teeth directly, like once a week?

Yes, you could. I would dilute it. Um, and I just keep an eye on everything. So if you go into the dentist and all of a sudden you have more gum disease, or all of a sudden you have an incipient lesion on your tooth, that could just be signs that you've shifted your microbiome too much with the hydrogen peroxide. It's pretty powerful. So I would dilute it a little bit. Um, but you can definitely use that. And, and baking soda mixed in like a slurry. So mix baking soda in a water and kind of make a paste. That can work really well. I caution people to be careful of charcoal toothpaste. They're very abrasive. They can scratch away your enamel. That's irreversible. So I know those were really hot for a minute. I encourage you not— that's like a let's move on. That was not a great product movement in my opinion. So, so yeah, I just try some of those things. Dentists have in-office bleaching too, if, if you really want bright white teeth. You know, usually these things do relapse, especially for drinking coffee and eating berries and drinking wine and these things that stain too. But I tend not to be black and white in these things. I just, you know, I think moderation with some of these products is great, especially if it brings you joy, because part of health is emotional health and confidence in how you feel about yourself. And so I wanna be respectful of that.

So true. Dr. Stacy Whitman, thank you so much for being part of the Being Brigid Show. You are doing such important work to help to educate other practitioners, other functional medicine dentists, hygienists. For anyone that's listening that is in the dental field, can you explain what you recently launched and the work that you're going to be doing in 2026?

Yeah, thanks so much. So one of the top questions I get on my platforms is like, I really enjoy what you're talking about, it really resonates. How do I find someone practicing like you, um, into your— our point earlier, it's hard. It can be hard to find providers thinking differently. And so, um, we— I have co-founders. We launched the Institute for Functional Dentistry because what we're really missing in these conversations is a standardized educational platform. Functional medicine has that, and it has several. Like, there's different programs out there. And functional nutrition either, but dentists don't, not, not from a functional standpoint. And I really believe in the the concepts of functional medicine as foundation. So that's what dentists are missing. So we launched a residency-level training program that is— it's foundational in functional medicine, and then we build functional dental concepts on top of it, including every specialty. And it's pretty soup to nuts, from the therapeutic encounter to nutrition, airway, and orthodontics, and oral surgery, and periodontist, oral microbiome, everything. Um, and It's, it's open to dentists, hygienists, assistants, front desk, business teams, but also functional nutritionists, um, functional medicine doctors, naturopaths, chiropractors, myofunctional therapists. Anyone that's treating a human body, in my opinion, could go through this program. But we could, because we have different tracks. And so, you know, someone that's not actually directly in dentistry, but like they understand the mouth is so important, they wanna know more about it so they can help connect the dots and support their patient, they could do track 1. And then there are just different tracks as you go along. So yeah, that has launched. Our first cohort begins in mid-January. I'm not sure when this podcast will be released, but we have other cohorts coming further along in the year and then more to come indefinitely. We hope the response has been really great. We already have an almost full class. Our faculty is so killer. I'm so honored. You know, Dr. Jeffrey Bland did a little intro talk for us, which is so flattering. Wow. I know.

That is huge.

I know. And James Nestor does a little talk. Wow. No, I know. It's cool. So it's a big— I mean, I think it's a big deal. I'm very proud of it. Yeah, it's cool. It's how we're really gonna— I can do these podcasts and I'm educating the community and I'm educating the population and the patients and maybe my colleagues a little bit, but we need to get the providers motivated and supported too. I think a lot of people wanna practice this way, they just don't know where to begin. And so we wanted to make it all in one place for them.

And patients are moving in this way. So I feel like just in the same way that as patients have demanded more functional medicine, which has led to more doctors getting trained or more dietitians getting trained, that it's the same thing. Like as you see more and more of your patients asking for this kind of thing, you're like, okay, maybe I could be more interested in it. And that's where I feel like also the value of sharing this information like this podcast episode with your dentist, with people in your community, with your family members to help to continue to educate about how, you know, not, not, uh, common sense some of the current practices are. Like, that's really the, the way that we change the narrative. So I think that also the work that you're doing is beyond important and as really like a leader and pioneer in the field of functional dentistry. So thank you so much for being here today. Tell us where everyone can find you.

Yes, thank you for all that. So, so kind. I'm mostly on Instagram, but I am on other platforms too. And it's Dr_Staci. Dr. is spelled out and it's S-T-A-C-I. DrStaci.com is my website. I do have a newsletter that I'm very proud of where you can get deeper dives on some of these topics. That's the hard thing with a podcast. We try to cover so much and we get as deep as we can, but sometimes they need more explanation and protocols. And things. So that's my newsletter on my website. If you want to see me in person, I practice at Bloom Dentistry in Portland, Oregon. I offer online consultations. You also, you can find that on my website as well. Um, gosh, yeah, that's where I am. And check out the Institute for Functional Dentistry. It's functionaldentistry.org. Um, and even if you're listening and you're not in this field, please share with a provider that might be open-minded to it. If you have a dentist, you're like, I think 'Dr. So-and-so would be really interested in this program. We need all of this. Um, we need you. We need you to help spread the, the mission for us. So thank you in advance.' I couldn't agree more.

That's even like what I recently did at, at my dentist, who's a friend of mine but is very— or more conventional in, in the approach. And the hygienist, she, you know, like, I kind of got out of her that she's more functional-minded. And so I started just like lightly Saying, oh, well, there's, you know, these resources. And my friend Dr. Stacy Whitman is, you know, like a brilliant dentist that you can learn more from. I just think that sometimes being able to, to add things really delicately can help to shift people.

Yeah.

And like get them interested in looking into these things. And we'll include links for all of the resources that Dr. Stacy has listed today. But Dr. Stacy, thank you for being a part of the Being Brigid Show, and we will see you next time.