What Is The Essence of Charisma? - Dr. K & Joe Hudson

I'm very excited to share with you today the first of what I hope could be many charisma on command podcasts. For our first ever guests, we have Dr. K from Healthy Gamer GG. He's a mental health expert, someone I've learned a tremendous amount from. And we have Joe Hudson, who is an executive leadership coach at OpenAI and founder of Art of Accomplishment. Both of these guys have taught me a ton, and I'm so excited to share with you today. We go at the surface level. We touch on some of the charismatic tactics, but really, this conversation is about the deep essence of charisma. What is it at its core, and how can you unleash it in yourself? I hope that you enjoy Joe All Oak. Wonderful to have both of you guys here.

I'm thrilled to be here. Man, this is, like, super exciting.

Thank you, guys. Thank you, guys. So I have spent 20 years trying to figure out charisma, and there's only a few people that I would genuinely ask this question to. So I'm very excited to do it. How is it that you guys understand charisma? Do you see it primarily as behaviors, mindsets, something else you want to kick things off?

Yeah. I make a distinction when I think about charisma is there's two forms of charisma. There's the form of charisma that is, I have learned a set of behaviors that allow people to like me, be convinced by me. I think typically that's. I would call it like a slimy form of charisma.

Okay.

And the thing about it, the notable thing about it is that it doesn't last very long. Like, that kind of charisma can hold in a relationship from maybe three to six months, and then at best, maybe just the length of a car, sales, like somewhere in there. And then there's a form of charisma that is just basically, I would call it authenticity and aliveness, where there's somebody who is so deeply on their purpose, being themselves and full of aliveness, where they're not restricting parts of themselves. And then that's an incredibly something that draws people in deeply. I think the first one comes because you want something like power. You want people to like you. You want people to love you. You're trying to fill a hole. The other one comes because you have learned how to love yourself and all aspects of yourself. And so that. That's how I think about. I don't think about it as one thing in modern. I think about it as two.

I think the first part of my Journey was very much what you might have described as the slimy form. But do you have a similar understanding of it? Do you see it as.

Yeah. So one thing I love about Joe is that it blows my mind how he. He understands so much about the things that I have formally trained in. So, like, the way I'd answer that question. So two or three different things. So I. I tried to understand this myself. Like, what is charisma? So the first thing that I sort of realized from psychiatric training is that we think about charisma as if it's within you. Right. Like, charisma is an attribute of a person. But fundamentally, how do you. If you're on a desert island by yourself, can you be charismatic?

Yeah.

And so the first thing to understand that I think most people miss is that charisma is a dyadic interaction. It is about a response of something that you do that happens in the other person. So no mastery of charisma will be complete until you recognize that there is something in the other person that needs to be activated. Now the question becomes, how do you go about activating it? So this is where I think there are several layers to it. Right. So we have, like. And this is what's so fascinating about the research on charisma is it's so multidisciplinary. You have studies from leadership, management, business, like Harvard Business School kind of stuff. Then you have stuff about basic psychology. You have stuff about neuroscience, and then you even have charisma research from anthropology and history. So people will look at people like Rasputin and try to ask themselves, how is this person so charismatic? Right. And which. What? Because, like, he kind of has this bad reputation, but is that sleazy? But it absolutely withstood the test of time. So I think that the way I think about charisma is in, like, all of those dimensions. And when I work with people, it's like working on. Okay, let's understand, what are the variables that make a leadership successful? How do you cultivate those on a personal. From a personal standpoint, what's going on in the brain? And then how do you connect to this deeper kind of charisma that, like, Joe is talking about? Right. That is not about the other person that really comes and flows from within you.

Wow.

Love both of those. Is it? Go ahead.

Yeah. To geek out a little bit more. There's. There's another interesting thing about charisma. People thinking they don't have it or they do have it. So just as like, a internal experiment, most humans have A critical voice in their head, repetitive negative self talk. That part of you is super charismatic for most people for the beginning of their life. Meaning that most people listen to that and they're like, yeah, huh, I'm on. Yes, yes, I should lose weight. Yes, yes, I should be a nicer person. Yeah, I've. Dah, dah, dah. So there's a relationship that we have with ourselves where there is some part of us that we are in a charismatic relationship with. And so that's a really interesting thing to think about when someone's saying, oh, I want to be charismatic. There's an interesting thought process like, well, what's the part of you that is charismatic? And what's the part of you that's just following along, going, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, listening to it. So it's an interesting thing to see that there is that charismatic nature in all of us.

Yeah.

And that's a very direct experience of being able to see it.

I feel like I've noticed that growing up that the things that you're a middle schooler and the thing that make the girl like you is ignoring her and running away from her and teasing her or being mean to her. And so as I look back, back, it's. I wonder if that's a projection of like the things that are charismatic early in our life are the parts of ourselves that are not forthcoming and open and kind to ourselves. And for me, I see that some of those early behaviors that I learned were like, if somebody asks you to do them a favor, make sure that you don't just do it and roll over like you're, you know, you're. You work for them or something like that. And so I'm curious is, is there stages where it looks. Tends to look different inter. Interactively between different people based on life stage, or how should people even go about learning this if it's something that has so many different ways of being expressed and types of it almost.

Yeah. So I think the way that I would. I approach this is like, let's look at like the basic research. Like, what is the best body of research that tells us what charisma is? The problem with that kind of research is if you say like, authenticity, which is a huge part of the charisma equation, telling you what charisma is is not the same as developing it. Right. One is like, what it is like. So like, how do you be successful in life? You, you can, you can ask someone that question and they can say, be rich. That doesn't give you like a Method. So. So kind of my approach is, what are the things that actually contribute to charisma? And then what is the mechanism of attaining those things? So my understanding of it is like a couple of big variables float to the surface. The first is having a vision. So if you sort of think about, like, who in your life is charismatic, they have an idea of where they're going, that's like a very huge thing. Second thing is the ability to deal with setbacks with some degree of, like, equanimity and resilience. So when we think about. And this is mostly from, like, the leadership research, we think about what makes a leader. It's like, when things go. When. When things go bad, who do you turn to? Right? Who can handle problems? And that's where, like, the vision and the ability to be resilient and deal with setbacks is huge. The third really, really concrete thing is good with words. So this is where we go, like, a little bit, you know, theoretical for a second. But how do we know whether a human being is competent or not? So competency in most human beings comes from, like, their mind, right? So the way that they think, like, if we look at, like, the. What separates human beings from animals, it's our mind. And what. How does one human being understand the quality of another human being's mind? And that is through speech, usually. So this is why, like, in the field of psychiatry, we had Freud, who's trying to figure out what is going on in someone's mind, and what does he do? He listens to them. So how do you know about the people in your life? How do you change the minds of the people that you work with? You know, you use the power of speech and you use your ears. So it's basically like, some degree of authenticity. That's the fourth one. So authenticity, vision, the ability to deal with setbacks without getting, like, destroyed and then being articulate with your words. Those are, like, the four biggest variables. And then there's a couple of variables that are really weird that are also pretty big. But I think we'll get to those later.

Sure.

It's a. That's a. I love that breakdown it. The two things that come to mind when I hear it. The. The first one is that there's a study that was done, gosh, I think it was like in the 90s or something, where they had people come up and speak in front of groups, and then they all said how intelligent they were. And they did not track their intelligence well, they tracked how well they spoke. So basically, if you speak well, we think you're intelligent, even though that may not be the case at all. They're not actually correlated or they're not highly correlated. So that's one thing that's really interesting. So there is an articulation that especially in the short term, really helps you convince people that you should be somebody, should be followed, or somebody who's smart. The other piece that came to mind as you were speaking about this is, and I don't know any research on this, but I just know the practicality of it, which is people often are found charismatic by the way they listen. And I don't know where that is in the, in the research, but. Meaning, I think there's like something famous where there was Ms. Roosevelt or something like that had two prime ministers of England, this story that you've heard about. And one was like, he was the smartest man in the world. And the other prime minister said to her, she said about him, I felt like I was the smartest woman in the world. What I noticed is that just listening and the way that you listen and how open hearted you're listening and how accepting you are and the questions you ask often is like a very charismatic thing, both in leadership and otherwise. And I think it's a missed part because we're usually going, I'm going to go into a meeting, how am I going to say the thing that I want to say? We're not saying, oh, I'm going to the meeting, how am I going to listen? But the way that you listen actually has as much, if not more power of what you get out of that meeting and what people think of you.

Is that age dependent? Because you said people miss this. I didn't make a video on listening for about six years. Right. And I would say I still had a magnetism to people. So I was very focused on what I was saying, how people understand what I was saying. As I get older, I noticed that shift. Is that something that is age or stage dependent as people get into it? What do you think of that? Because it seems like such a glaring omission, but at the time it didn't seem like a glaring omission.

I mean, I don't think it's age dependent. I do think it is, in a sense, stage dependent. Okay, right. So I think if we talk about, you know, I love Joe's like, very practical framework of like, there's the sleazy kind and then there's like this deep thing. And the other variable that I was alluding to by the way is one study looked at very charismatic people and basically found a variable which is like divinity. So if you look at like Joan of Arc and Jesus and the Buddha and Rasputin, some of the most charismatic people in the history of humanity are like spiritual people. So I think that if we sort of look at like some of these surface level things, and I think listening is a great example of something that cuts across the research. Right. So there's a mo. There's a certain amount of authenticity that is related to empathy, that is related to listening. When you truly listen to people, what you articulate back to them. Right. Sounds so intelligent. So I think like listening is this beautiful kind of like thing that. That allows. It's kind of like an amp. It lets you check a lot of boxes. And I think basically you can start with some of these like skill kind of things. But I think the real charisma, like this transformative world shaping charisma, which each and every one of us have, in order to unearth that, like, I think listening is, is one step along that process. And there's. There's a very interesting mechanism which we can get into, but I think we'll get into that.

I would love to. Yeah, yeah, let's talk about unearthing.

I think, I think as far as your stages go, I. What I notice is that listening doesn't happen until you stop having something to prove. So that. That's. That, I think. And which is again, being in love with yourself or accepting yourself. The more you're accepting yourself, then these other things unravel in you. Good.

I feel like I have a really. Because I've been trying to understand the way that you guys say it in my own frame. I feel like I have a good sense of it. So what is this process for unearthing it, for developing these vision? The ability to speak articulately, to listen? Well, how would you guys advise people to go about taking their first steps, assuming that their. My audience is often like from young 20s to upper 30s, if that's that typical stage of life.

So I think maybe what I can do is talk about the four variables that I mentioned. And then I think the real conversation is going to be getting to that true charisma. And so I kind of want to like finish that off and get into this discussion of loving yourself, which is still confusing to me, by the way. So I love to hear what you have to say. Right. So the first thing is a vision. So I think a lot of people, if you look at like their direction in Life, like they sort of don't have a direction. So we're in a society where our sense, our senses are bombarded by what we should do. There's like Instagram influencers and like youtubers and like everyone's like telling you what you should do, what you should be. Social media has an effect on our ego, which is very bad, right? So it makes us self conscious, it makes us more depressed, it makes us more anxious. So literally what these algorithms have figured out how to do is make you feel bad about yourself and then sell you an answer. The problem is that there's a thousand answers for everything that you feel bad about. So the first thing is that's there's no vision there, right? There's no unifying thing. You're always trying to solve a problem. Love the way that Joe put it, you're trying to fix something within yourself, but that's not a vision for your life. That's trying to like fix this today and fix this tomorrow. So you kind of have to do some internal work, which I think we're going to get to and really develop like what you want from your life. And the only way you're going to find that is from you. And then once you have a path, once you have a plan, then people will like literally gravitate towards you because you're one of the few people who seems like they've got a clue. Because everyone, we have a loneliness epidemic, we have a mental health epidemic, you know, so then the moment that you become this thing, people just start like showing up. So that's, I think, a big part of that vision. I think articulation is really actually simple. So what I strongly recommend people do is anything that you're going to talk about, you write first. So there are a couple of cool neuroscience mechanisms there where when you write, the first thing that it does is it slows down the speed of your thoughts, which helps them like gel a little bit more. You think faster than you speak. So a big part of speaking well is like slowing down your thoughts. The other really cool thing about writing is, is when you write something, it activates your sensory input, right? Because you're reading what you're writing and the moment you activate your sensory input, whatever you're writing sinks into your brain and you learn it. Now, once you know something, then when you open your mouth, it sounds really good, right? So like, how do you become more articulate? You literally write it out. And one thing that I didn't really appreciate so I tried to write a book on video game addiction, and it sucked. But then the first time I started streaming, the words came out like, really fluidly because I had written this 300 page awful book, but in the process of writing it clarified my thoughts. So that's vision, that's articulation. I'm sure we'll get to like, setbacks and equanimity and things like that, because I think that's going to be kind of like, ego related. So I think those are like two or three really, like two really big things that people can start with. And then I think there's this deeper work which will sort of make things, I'm sure, like, easier as we move on.

Yeah. The only thing I would add there is if I remember the research quickly, I think the writing things out is probably going to work for 70% of the people. And so. So if you're one of those people who've done that and it doesn't work, then you're probably an auditory processor. And so you could probably do it by speaking it out multiple times.

Yeah.

So it's, it's depending, but most people are writers.

Yeah. And I love the phrase, some people think in order to talk and some people talk in order to think.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I'm that auditory person. Which is why I remember I was sitting at a. When I was doing nonprofit work, helping run this, this foundation, and I was in a meeting in Cleveland, Ohio, and this woman just walks up to me, she goes, oh, you don't read, do you? You're an auditory processor. I was like, how did you know? And she described all my behaviors that. That let her know that I was. So as far as I would say, those are amazing practical steps. The number one thing that I think to do is really deeply inquire as to what makes it that you want to have charisma, to really understand that about yourself. Typically, the way that it works is once I have this, then I can be lovable. Once I have this, then I can be good enough. Once I have this, then I will be happy. And that's the ultimate con that we tell ourselves. And so to recognize that there's nothing that you actually have to do to love yourself or to be loved, you don't have to create a certain amount of value. So questioning the problem itself, questioning the premise, I think is a really good first step for the other things that, you know, the deeper authenticity part of it, because that's going to teach you exactly the places that you're not accepting yourself. If you start looking at what you're telling yourself you have to do to be good enough or lovable or not abandoned or whatever, that's the places that you're going to be able to go in and say, oh, these are the parts that are unloved. This is where I start my work.

Hey guys, cutting in here from the future. You may be asking yourself, how do I implement this stuff concretely in my life? And I want to offer you two options. The first, you've heard from me before, it's my course, Charisma University. If you're someone who is focused on how do I get more dates, how do I get a promotion, how to become a leader in my friend group and just generally feel more confident, those are all results that our students have gotten time and time again. It's a 30 day course. Within three to five days, you should be seeing massive results. If that's something that you're looking for, check out Charisma University. It's the fastest way I know to knock that area of your life out of the park. And the second option is if you're looking more for this state of charisma that we've been talking about in the conversation. And that would be Joe's connection course. I've gone through it myself. It's tremendously powerful and I can't recommend it enough. So I asked the Art of Accomplishment team if they could do a deal for Charisma on command listeners and they set up an affiliate link that will actually get you 30% off. It's a cohort based course, so you can't do it on your own time. You're going through it with a group of people. And if you're watching this at launch, the next cohort comes out in September. But you can join the wait list and use our code to get 30% off whenever you do sign up for it. So both of those are excellent. You know, I don't advertise other people's courses often. I really think this one is great. I'll leave you with that as two options and we'll hop right back into the show. When I look back, if I say, okay, what might I have asked myself, like, I need a girlfriend or I need a. This, this particular guy needs to like me or something like that. What would be the practical walkthrough of okay, so my initial answer is, that girl has to like me in order for me to like myself. Then. Then what? And so what I took is, okay, I'm gonna make her like me.

Right? Right.

So I know what to do. Now figure out what she likes. You know, be all of. Be all the things that she likes.

So, Charlie, when you did that, what happened next?

Yeah, exactly.

So I said, so what I started doing was watching very carefully. What is she responding to? What are women in general responding to? They like guys who play guitar. I learned to play the guitar, you know.

Right.

So. So just run that process for about 10 years. And now I'm doing jiu jitsu, learning multiple languages, like, trying to be the Renaissance man that I can, which is effective in a way. And there was wonderful secondary tertiary effects of I love music. And I got to do that, and I didn't, at that beginning stage, get to the. The self love and the self acceptance. So I'm curious how someone might run through that in a way that as. That is cleaner than. Than what I did, perhaps.

Hold on a second.

Yeah, go ahead.

You got to take it.

I'm assuming.

I think we're going the same place.

Yeah, it's like. And then you got the woman, but it didn't.

Right. So that's what I exactly want to hear about.

Correct.

So don't Fast forward to 10 years. Started doing the deeper work. I want to know one year in. Right. So let's let everyone who's listening to this is like. But I think we need to hear when you started getting in shape, when you started playing guitar, when you started making money. Two years, in three years, you did get the girl, Charlie.

Yeah.

What happened then?

Girls, Girls, Girls, I'm assuming. Yeah, yeah.

No, at first it was, oh, God, I'll just.

Yeah.

At first I felt like king of the universe. It was the greatest, most thrilling, excited thing that I could ever imagine. I didn't understand why everyone in the world wasn't crazy quitting their job to go out to bars and flirt and receive validation. It made no sense to me. And when I saw, you know, the occasional 40 or 45 year old at the bar, I was like, that guy gets it.

Like, that guy.

He gets it. Got girlfriends, had casual encounters. And then, you know, the. The one that I definitely had to have after years of. Didn't get that girl in high school, didn't get that girl in college. But I was 27, and I finally got that one that I had to have had a intense period of just wanting her to really like me as much as possible. That lasted many, many months. And then it became like the biggest ache in my life. This, like, trying to make this relationship work in a way that felt good for me and for her was, I was still seeking. Like, I was like, I still want to be in a non monogamous, open relationship because I need all the attention from multiple women. But I have to please you as well, and I want you to like me. And I, as I reflect back on it, I understood my own happiness to be how much smiles, applause and kneading is being directed at me from my primary partner and other women that I was casually seeing. And then my hair started falling out and I, you know, like, yeah, so.

You know, and I'm going to tee this up, I assume, and you spike it over the neck, Joe, because I'm pretty sure we're going to go the same place. But like, so this is what I see. And it's so challenging because sometimes people will come to me and they, they come to me and they like, want to be better, right? They want to be accepted, they want to be loved. And then they think, like, okay, like, clearly people respect dudes who are ripped, dudes who are rich. Let me be that. So I get their respect. And then they fall into a very dangerous trap, which is that they succeed. And then there's this other, really, this huge problem arises, which is like, basically unsolvable. Now you love this girl, you're into her, you're crushing on her, you hate yourself for it, and you feel powerless, but you want her so bad. So you do everything that you're supposed to do, and then she says yes. And then when you go home, you're wondering, who is she in love with? Who did she say yes to? Did she say yes to this crafted version? But what about the loser that I was before? What if I ever become that again? What if I start losing my hair or I start making less money? So now what you've managed to do is get exactly what you want, but it's like a house of cards that could get wiped away at any time. There's this really scary, like, fear of abandonment because you haven't been accepted. Your money has been accepted, your appearance has been accepted, you know, and. And so, like, it's so scary. And doing that work, the deeper work is like, it's such a common pattern where I'm gonna succeed and then I will get what I want. And it really messes me up even more.

Yeah, there's so many things I could say about my pithy phrase on this is the problem of becoming somebody to be loved is that you never get loved. The person that you pretending to be is the one that gets loved. And so it never fulfills. And that's like basically what was just said. But the secondary part is that there's a way to look at that that says, oh, so glad that didn't work out, because now I can actually do the real work. It seems to me that there's oftentimes this necessary step. For me, it wasn't about looks or money. For me, it was about awakening and spiritual fulfillment. But, oh, once I get to this place, then. And then when you get to that place and there's no there there, it's this amazing thing because then you have to reflect and say, oh, what is it actually? And then. So there's a part of human development which is you don't want people to walk before they can crawl. There's a whole bunch of neurological issues that come from that. And so if. If that's where you've got to go to figure out that it's completely unfulfilling, you know, feel free to go there. It seems, apparently I needed to do it. I'm sure there's ways I needed to do it too.

And I think actually many people do.

Yeah, exactly.

Right. So so many people need to walk to the end of the road to realize that this is not working.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And, and then there's a, there's a. Some people get lost there because they don't. They just can't imagine that there's something other way to do it because there's no examples of another way to do it. And so if you find yourself in that place, then it's back to how do you love yourself? How do you love. Get acceptance for who you are. And, and, and when I mean who you are, I mean all the aspects of yourself. What I notice is, and a good way to measure it is that the more that I love every aspect of myself, the more I can love everybody. So if I'm in the world not being able to love somebody, that's clearly a pointer of where I'm not accepting myself. When I'm get triggered, that's clearly a pointer where I'm not accepting myself. And so that's when that work starts coming into play.

So let me ask a question that I know I would have had at 27, because the first leap of improvements in my life came from seemingly no, not accepting myself. There was all of this advice when I was 13, 14, 15, just be yourself. Just be yourself. And like, that wasn't going well for me at the time. And so I developed this philosophy of I'm not going to be myself. I'm going to choose Myself, I'm going to decide how I want to come across, how I want to be and I'm going to select that and habituate certain behaviors and ways of being. And my conception of myself was this choosable thing that there was no essential. It was completely choice bound. So I'm wondering if I'd heard you say you have to accept yourself at 27. I would have. I would have bit that hard.

Have to.

Okay. And great. Because I would have heard it that way for sure.

That's why you're doing. That's why the 27 year old needs to do all that stuff. Because everything is a should and a. Otherwise. There's this the self relationship is one of force.

So what is the self if not this collection of chosen behaviors that I accept?

Let's not go into that. Okay.

Yeah, I agree. I think we've got one major step.

Yeah.

Before we hit it there.

Let's hit it.

So. So you know, it's. It maybe I, I can. We'll get there. So. So you know, it's interesting because I hear this a lot like especially in like dating because dating is really hard right now and people are like, oh, you know, just be yourself. I think that's terrible advice. So I, I think if we. I think the worst thing you can be is yourself.

I. I know, I know. Yeah.

We don't. We don't.

So looking forward to it because I know you get it. So twist that you're about to do. I just cannot wait.

So. Exactly. Right. So. And I think this is going to give us the layer that we're missing. Okay, so when someone says. Okay, so let me ask you. All right. So when someone says I should be myself, what do you think that means to them?

To me I could tell you what it meant.

Yeah.

I should be shy, reserved, withdrawn, like my video games and not effective in my communication with people and have the same small group of friends that I do and not more than that.

Right. So I think when we, when most people say like, you know, like I hear all these things like if you can't handle me at my worst, you don't deserve me at my best. Which in a relationship is a license to continue to be an asshole. So I think most people live this life where they have all of these internal tendencies and what they think and then they fight against those internal tendencies. So I feel like being an ass, but I need to be nice. So there's like this internal tension and they, they think okay, like I should be nice. So like this is The. The part of me that I'm going to project, that doesn't work. Right? And so instead what I should do is the layer underneath, like, all these raw emotions, all of these things that are, like, underneath that I regulate, that's really who I am. But if you sort of look at it like, from a developmental and psychiatric perspective, everything right underneath what you show the rest of the world, that's what people think myself is. Right? It's the. It's the person that I am. It's the unfiltered thoughts, but that is not you. Right. And I think that's. That's the main twist. But I think this is where, like, as a psychiatrist, like, what are we underneath what we show? We're like a pile of disorganized attachment styles, mental conditioning, like, mental habituation, a lot of internalized shoulds, haves, whatever, right? So when someone says, you know, if someone can't handle me at my worst, they don't deserve me at my best, there's a core, like, brutal, unlovable part, and they want that acceptance. And so it's kind of weird, but, like, you know, I. I think that the parts underneath you kind of need to be fixed, need to be healed. I'm sure you don't use the word fixed, but I do.

Yeah.

Right. So. So one of the interesting things is I. I do think that if you look at it from, like, a clinical perspective, there is a bad way for your mind to function, and there is a good way for your mind to function. That what you're, what you perceive as yourself to be is actually a pile of, like, micro traumas that have built up into something that I would call ego or a hum. God. And I think that's the big missing step. So a lot of this, like, finding authenticity is about actually getting rid of your ego. And it's interesting because Joe keeps on using the word love. I don't know what that word means. Yeah, right. So. So I'm sure we're talking about the same thing, but that language has never made, like, the concept of self love. If you ask me today, do I love myself? I don't know what that means. I just am. You know, I don't have a. I would even say, like, the goal is to not even have a relationship with yourself, because the moment that you have a relationship with yourself, a relationship is between two things. In my path to self acceptance, I wouldn't even call it self acceptance because that, that means that someone is doing the accepting and something is being accepted. And that's actually duality. That's division. That's not the real self. That's a very subtle form of ego. Right. And I don't know if that makes sense so we can get into that. Right. So, so it. And just the, the word love has always been confusing to me because I don't know like what people mean by that.

Yeah. So it's interesting. There's two pieces I want to go down. I want to address that because I see some semantics that can be switched around for us to see that we're talking about the same thing. That I think we know we're talking about the same thing. But there's one other part that I want to talk about which is there's a brilliant design to humanity is what I notice. And, and it relates here, which is the first part of it. Say, call it two parts. Right. The first part of it is that the feeling that I'm trying to avoid feeling I'm inviting in exactly the way that I'm trying to avoid it. So if I don't want to feel like I'm a loser, then I am going to do all these things. Play guitar, da da da. Get the girl. So I don't feel like a loser. And in that you got to feel like a loser. Right. So we do. When I was, when I was in my 20s, it was abandonment. I emotionally abandoned. My dad was an alcoholic. It was like my mom was an al Anon. There was just no way I was going to be emotionally abandoned. So every time I started to feel that abandonment, I would do one of two things. Yeah, fine. Which it clearly made somebody abandon me or I would be come, could you. Would you please? Which also makes people abandon you. And so I was inviting the thing. The reason that our, our system does that as far as I can tell, is that when we are. When we were younger, we got certain things set in place that said the micro traumas which basically said you're not allowed to feel this thing. Don't feel like a loser. You're not allowed to feel like a loser. You're not allowed to feel unloved. If I felt abandoned by my parents, I'd be like, crap. Like the people are supposed to take care of me, aren't taking care of me. It would just devastation. Don't feel that. And so I'm keep on recreating circumstances to bring that emotion back up so that it can finally be welcomed and loved. And so, so for me what that means is literally if you think about the love part of it and I don't do it because I'm supposed to love and accept myself all as is, though that's exactly what I'm doing. It's also using slightly different language. It's also the most efficient way I've found to heal those micro traumas, which is micro traumas generally are. Here's a whole bunch of part of you that weren't loved and accepted and so you have contorted yourself out of who you are to get the love and acceptance that never actually fulfills. So, okay, I won't be scared, Mom. I'll be strong, Mom. And now that part of you is unloved and it's in the background. And so your authenticity in my language is all the unloved parts being able to be there. And so the very most effective way, and you can't jump to it, you have to actually there's some steps, but eventually the most effective way that I notice is to love the parts of yourself that you are not accepting. The other word would be welcoming the parts of yourself that are accepting. The reason I use love is because there's a visceral felt sense of, oh, if you think about a puppy or a niece or a nephew or a child, there's a feeling that you have that you're like, oh, that, oh. And there's a softness often like tears. If you really let it in, there's almost of a heartbreak. And it's like, oh, I feel that towards the dog or the kitten or my son or my daughter. What is it like to actually turn that towards myself? What is it like to actually viscerally, somatically go, oh, that love towards myself? And just like, essentially you're like, there's nothing wrong with you. But there is. But there is. These things do need to be fixed and we'll say that so that you can have that moment. Similarly, there is, for what I notice, for myself for a long time and for most people that I work with, there is two sets, two sides of the self. And this is what I notice is this is one of the paths, one of probably 10 paths that I'm aware of that allow people to actually get out of duality into non duality. So, yeah, we're both saying, yes, we'll agree with you that there is a problem here, so that it's a more effective way to work on it. But essentially there's not really a problem and it's very confusing.

So, yeah, I know it's confusing. So, like, yeah, I think it's clear to me that Joe and I are on the same page. I think it's just. This is. What's so fascinating is what I love about listening to you talk and watching you work with people is we're clearly starting from the same place and we end up in the same place, but our routes there are very different. So it's interesting because. And I think we get. And maybe this will make sense, but. So when someone comes into my office and they're like, Dr. K, I'm having problems. And what I'll say is, like, yeah, bro, you are having problems. I think this is the key thing. We can fix them. But it's okay for you to be flawed, right? It's not that you're not flawed. I think this is where the. The language of self acceptance and self love, I've just seen it clinically get into bad places. And I think this is something about the way that you use it. I think you understand it in a way. You see it exist in a way that I think that when people say, like, self love, that means lettering. The degenerate parts of me run wild. Right. And this could also be like, by virtue of who we work with on average.

Yeah.

And so I. I think where I kind of come from is like, yeah, if you're like, if your life is screwed up, like, I agree, let's fix. But it's okay for it to be screwed up.

Right?

Right. It. Like, up until this point, you have tried reflexively to fix these things. And. And what Joe stumbled into, and this is what really blows my mind, is like, I think it was Freud who originally coined the term, like, repetition compulsion. So this is something that is very, very common and well known in psychology that we continue. And not only in psychology, also in Eastern spirituality, but we continue to create. When we try to fix the problems in our life, we just create those problems. And, you know, Joe offered a really great example that I'd love to flesh out. So I work with a lot of people with narcissistic personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, sociopathy. And these people, like, you know, in borderline personality disorder, you have a fear of abandonment. And so what happens is when you're in a relationship with someone, you're like, this person is going to abandon me eventually. And then they're like, charlie, don't abandon me. Don't go, don't go, don't go. And in. Because that never gets satisfied. And you're like, I'm not going to abandon you. Like, tell me you love me, Charlie.

I do.

I do love me.

You Love me. You love me today, but what about tomorrow?

Yeah.

And then it's like. Or told you six times.

I keep saying it. And then what happens is that. That right there, right? So hopefully, like, people see that face, right? And then people with borderline personality disorder, they are very sensitive to faces. So if you're smiling right now and 10% of your face is actually frowning, which is really weird, but you can do that, right? You can tell when the smile doesn't hit someone's eyes. Someone with BPD will ignore the 90% of the smile, and they will see the 10% in your. The lack of love in your eyes. They'll see the frustration. And so what they end up doing is, since I'm never reassured by you, I'm like, charlie, love me, love me, love me. And then what I'm going to do is drive you fucking crazy. Yeah, you can't handle it anymore. And then you're like, I just need a day away from your anxieties. And then suddenly I've created the abandonment that I feared. And each time it happens, the wound gets deeper and deeper and deeper. And then I'm hungry for the next person to love me and hungry for the next person to love me. And on the Eastern side, that's kind of this weird, like, cycle of karma that the Buddha sort of talks about, right? He says, like, we get trapped in this cycle of karma. And like, the more that you try to escape, like, it's like a Chinese finger trap where, like, the harder you pull the way life is, which I. I mean, I love you, Joe, but, like, when you're like, oh, the human being is beautiful, I'm like, we're also, like, fundamentally flawed and trapped in this cycle of karma, right? So so many of our survival reactions, and. And that's what happens. You learn, like, this avoidant attachment stuff. Anxious attachment stuff. I agree we're beautiful. But also, we're, like, fundamentally kind of like the way that we survive our problems creates problems for us, and it requires so much work and insight to sort of get there. And. And that's why Joe and I have jobs, because.

Yeah.

You know, so it's. It's fascinating.

Yeah, it's interesting. As you were talking, it's exactly almost the opposite in my approach, which is somebody comes to me like, I have a problem. I'm like, prove it. And they can't.

Yeah.

So. So, like, it's. It's an interesting thing, but both work and it's. It's an interesting. What's interesting to me about it is that if you. There's this thing about just the developmental process that I get, really, that I geek out on. But a very interesting way to think about it is there was a time in my life where the word nowadays is agency. But I needed to know that I could control, that I had agency, that I was choosing my life, that life was a choice because I felt disempowered, I felt oppressed by my parents, et cetera. So I needed to. I have a choice. And that offered me great relief. And the way I say it now is every epiphany is a rut waiting to happen. And then just a little bit later, whatever decade, I guess, just a little bit later, all of a sudden, that feeling of choice was a burden to me. That to see life as a gift, to see that every one of my thoughts was not something that I was choosing, that I couldn't even choose to stop my thinking, that every time I had gratitude, that was a gift that created relief in my system. And so there is this. There is a time and a place for the methodology, no matter what it is. It's not about, is it the right thought? Is that the useful thought today, in this moment? And there's definitely a time where it is incredibly useful to say, yeah, you're fucked up, and that's okay. And there's also a time that's really useful to say, prove it. Yeah. Yeah.

Can I share with you a model that has really helped me with this? Because I have been. The Everything is a rut has been so challenging for me because I was like, I've already tried surrendering. I did that when I was 15. It didn't go well.

So you can't surrender. We'll get into that.

So the. The model is. I think. I think it comes from Michael Beckwith, but it's.

You're.

I'm sure you're familiar, like, to me, by me, through me, as me. And if you're not, it's this idea that people start in something called victim consciousness, which is, life is happening to me, and I live in a state like, whose fault is it that things suck so much, basically? And just, please don't be my fault. It's somebody else's. The big leap to the next stage by me is, no, I'm taking responsibility. I'm taking control. And this is where I lived. That conversation didn't go well. It's not because we're not a match. It's because I could have been more verbally fluent or been funnier or smiled Wider, whatever it is. And so most of personal development, you might call it, occurs in this buy me stage. I'm taking control of my finances, my health, my everything. And then where I feel like I've recently gotten to is the pain of that, the endless responsibility of having.

Sounds exhausting.

It's so. Well, at first it's liberating, and then it's a cage. It's. It's horrible. And so the end of that is you step into through me, which is where I feel like I'm starting. Where you allow gratitude to move through you. Grace to move through you. Miraculous. I don't know what I'm gonna say, but here's me to move through you. And that has helped me a lot, to not feel like I'm just moving backwards into this victim consciousness. And I've. And I can subtly now. Oh, they're not the same. You said you can't surrender at the beginning. And I guess I'm starting to get that. These are fundamentally different approaches.

Yeah. What's after through me as me, which.

Is so life moves through me. There's still a separation.

Is there something as me?

Life is as.

Is there something after that?

I think it's just as me in. In the stage.

What do you think?

Yeah, there is 100.

Oh, come on, hit me.

Yeah, I'm having a hard time verbalizing.

Yeah. So. So. So I would. Easy. Just as. As just the. As long as there's a me, there's one more step. Right. So.

So, like I was going to say is. But. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But again, language is really weird. It gets really weird here.

Yeah, but I. I think there's absolutely one more step.

Yeah.

A five stick.

Cool. Cool. I mean, I don't. My guess is there's no. There's probably a dozen steps after that, too. My experience is evolution doesn't end. It's not like there's not some place where you're like, boom, done.

Yeah.

But there's definitely his definition. There's. You could geek out on this forever.

Yeah.

But what I do notice about the developmental cycle generally is that each new phase isn't. It's an integration as well. You're seeing something new, but you can't stop the integration. Meaning I am walking, but it doesn't mean I now can't crawl. Yeah.

So that's interesting, because I think, you know, in psychiatry, we have a great phrase that really stuck with me, which is growing up is the process of abandoning what works.

Yeah. Yeah.

Right. So if you look at people who have These patterns in their life where they're stuck, like, chasing, like, okay, like you. So it sounds like you did it all, Charlie. You got in shape, like, learned how to play guitar.

I exhausted it.

Multiple languages. Right. So, like, you had something in it. It worked. Right. Like, you got the girl at 24 and then got the girl at 25, and then got the girl at 26, and you keep on doing more and more. It's working. The process of really growing up is getting rid of what. What works. So you. You kind of refer to it as an integration. I. I know it's going to be weird. I think we're golden. But I would call it disintegration. Right. I would call it getting rid of something. Like, literally getting rid of something. So getting rid of your old patterns. Getting rid of. And so going to this place of even. There's no me left. Right. So you're, like, getting rid of a certain pattern of interaction. And, like, a good example is, like, when you're two, you can kind of cry and you can get away with it. I have some patients that continue to have temper tantrums when they're like, 26, 27, 68, and they're throwing temper tantrums. And in order for them to grow, they have to get rid of the thing that their spouse tolerated that allowed them to get their way. Is what you sort of have to get rid of.

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Both are true. There's an integration and a disintegration. Yeah, yeah. And especially with the sense of self, there's a disintegration. But even in that, there's also. Then my experience, this. I think we're going. We're going to jump the shark until we get to the what am I Question. We can talk about, like, where that goes. But, yeah, I don't want to get.

Well, I'm. I'm out of my depth now, so I want to let you guys steer.

From here on out, I think we're okay. Like, let. Let me just ask, like, Charlie, can you summarize what we've covered so far?

Yeah.

Like, where are we? Right. Okay.

I appreciate it because.

Because I think we gotta go there. And I don't know how much longer we.

So we started with this. This idea of charisma. And what is it?

It's.

It's an ability to vision and communicate clearly and to listen well. And there's all of these behaviors. And then what I heard, this is my. As I piece it together with my own understanding, is there's a social mask that Is hey everyone, you know, it's. It's that thing. Then there's what I'm going to call an ego, which is you have to take me and accept me and I'm like, I am this thing. And there's. It's an unconscious belief of this is what I am. And there's something deeper than that that is. I'll call the self here that is unified and has the effortless quality of charisma. It sounds like in this effortless quality of charisma it sounds like in this and one's life there are many different approaches. There's a to. To doing it and one is to fix all of the surface level problems to get the girl to do the thing, to do this, to do that. And another way in is to realize there never was a problem. I didn't need the girl. And my way has been, you know, I guess you could call it top down.

Yeah.

And it sounds as was our way probably. Sure.

So beautiful. Yeah. So I'm thinking if you. There's.

There's one more piece to it that I think would actually tie it together. So in the Greek of charisma, it was a, like it's a God given gift or God's given gift. It's this, it's this thing that you don't actually get to. You don't get choice. And it's just a gift. And I think most people take that as some people were given it and some people weren't given it. And I don't know how they meant it, but my guess is somebody along the line meant it as no, that's the gift all of us are given. And whether you call that gift the thing that is not separated inside of ourselves, or you call it awareness, or you call it a disintegrated sense of I. Or you call it the evaporation of ego or whatever that is. That thing is probably what they're talking and pointing to when they say the religious people often have a huge sense of ego or I'm sorry, huge sense of them. That's also gonna be true.

Very common.

Yeah. Also have this sense of, of that, that divine gift that we all have. And so they're, they're. They see and feel that and live through that process often even if it's distorted through trauma or whatever they have that thing. And, and that's where we're, we're pointing to when we start talking about the self and what is the self. And is. Is that is. Is starting to see that the ego which you Defined as I think I'm this and this and this. I also define it as I don't think I'm this and this and this. Right. Somebody's like, no, no, I'm not that pretty. Also, ego.

I'm not a loser.

I'm not a loser. Also ego. And so. So there is this. So. And. And when I'm speaking to the idea of there's your authentic self, that's what I'm speaking to. Right. I'm not saying you need to be fixed, because that doesn't need to be fixed. And absolutely. There's work that needs to be done for you to be able to see.

Drop to see that. Sure.

To understand that's who you are. So that's the.

Yeah. So if I'm sort of feeling like I'm going to offer some language that. And maybe once we. If you all like the language and it feels like it's a model that kind of works, then we can get to the real stuff.

Yeah.

So, you know, and it blows my mind once again, Joe, that, like, you, like, I don't know how you learned this stuff, but, like, you know, I spent, like, literally years. Maybe you did, too, but years in India and South Korea and Japan and stuff, like at monasteries and things like that. But. So I like this term ahamkar, which is the Sanskrit word that loosely gets translated as ego. But the technical translation is the feeling of I, right? So anytime you say I am, that is not actually what you are. That is the ego. Right? So this is where. When Joe is saying, I'm a winner, that's ego. I'm a loser, that's also ego. And so I know it sounds kind of weird because we think we are these things, but, like, I'm a doctor, right? Like, that's. If I were to say I'm a doctor, everyone would agree. But, like, show me. Yeah, right. Show. Where is the doctor in me? Like, you can't find it. It's not a real thing. It's a construction. Right. So. So. And this is where people will say, like, so all of the attributes, anything that you. If you say I am, dot, dot, dot, anything that comes after that statement is part of ego. And this is really confusing for people because if I say I am a man, right? And because everyone's like, oh, like, that's like, that's biological, Right. Where I'm not trying to get into, like, gender rights or whatever. I mean, like, in a very technical sense, forget about morality and what's right or whatever. Let's. Let's Talk scientifically. How do I know I'm a man? Like, Charlie, are you a man?

First blush is yes.

Yeah. So how do you know?

I look at my genitals.

So let's say you have testicular cancer. You have to have your testicles removed. Right. So this is like work that I've literally done. I've had patients who have a double BRCA negative mutation who have to have double prophylactic mastectomies. I've had patients who have hysterectomies. The uterus needs to be taken out at the age of 24 because they've got really bad fibroids. If I remove your genitals, are you still a man?

I don't know. I am. I think so.

Right. So then some people will say, like, you still have XY chromosomes.

Right?

Right. So is that where man comes from? Is it the genitals? Like, which part? What part of you makes you a man?

And ultimately everything can be taken and will be, it seems like.

Right, right.

So this is where even there's so many foundational things about our identity where I love Joe's language of, like, show me, like, prove it to me. Right? And we're so trapped in this idea that I am something. Whereas if we really look at, like, kind of what we are, you know, you change your thoughts, change your emotions change your identity changes your body changes. So none of those are really what makes you you. Right. Like, if I lost an arm, I'd still be me. I was still me before I graduated from medical school. People think that you become a medical doctor when you get your piece of paper and you finish medical school. I know the day I became a doctor, it was six months after I got my MD degree. It was like when I was on call and someone asked for my help and my senior was unavailable and I was able to handle it. That's when I was at a wedding and someone was like, is there a doctor here? And you're like, okay, yeah, no, this person doesn't need to go to the hospital. It's a panic attack, not a heart attack. If I'm wrong, they die. Right. So, like, there. There are moments where we have this feeling of becoming, but that's not really who we are. So the ahamkara is when you say. When you say to yourself, I am a winner or I am a loser, it feels that way and it feels true to you, and that's the way the ego is. But if you kind of think about it, like, I can't biopsy you. And find either of those things. And so a lot of what we're talking about in terms of this deeper charisma, this authenticity that comes from the layer, that divine connection comes from the layer beneath ego. Because as long as you are chasing ego, you're going to get back to this trap that we talked about with you where it's like, I'm going to be better. I'm going to be better, I'm going to be better. But the more that you become that thing and the more that people love the shell that you become, I'm going to become rich, I'm going to become handsome. It doesn't actually solve the problem, right? And this is how you become narcissistic. This is how you become hypersensitive to other people's judgments. This is why you can't leave the house unless you get a nose job. That's all the growth of the ego. So this is the biggest problem is that so many of the things that we do to fix the problems in our life, as Joe said, just make them worse.

It's really well said. The way I give people a direct. Potentially a direct experience of this is like, try to get in touch with the thing that you've always been like that there's never been one moment that that hasn't been true. And there's a. There's a sense that happens. The words can't come to mind, but there's a sense of that, which is that place that is beyond the ego. I give people a direct. Potentially a direct experience of this is like, try to get in touch with the thing that you've always been like that there's never been one moment that that hasn't been true. And there's a. There's a sense that happens. The words can't come to mind, but there's a sense of that, which is that place that is beyond the ego. And there's this very weird thing, and I'm really curious about your thinking on this, which is there's a. Again, every epiphany is a rut waiting to happen. There's a place where fighting the ego, really important, like disintegrating the ego, really important. There's also a place where it's really important to say, oh, there is no ego. That's just an illusion that that whole thing was like a. You know, that happens. And apparently, from what I understand from neuroscience, is that the sense of I happens in the same part of the brain that hallucinates. So, like the. The. And there's this Very weird thing. And I'm really curious about your thinking on this, which is there's a. Again, every epiphany is a rut waiting to happen. There's a place where fighting the ego, really important. Like disintegrating the ego, really important. There's also a place where it's really important to say, oh, there is no ego. That's just an illusion. That. That whole thing was like a. You know, that happens. And apparently, from what I understand from neuroscience, is that the sense of I happens in the same part is that. Do you know about that?

I would not say that.

Okay.

But we can get into that if you want.

Yeah, I don't. I just. There's an article I read, and I was. But generally there is just a. There is like a. That sense of self is. At some point, there's a time when it's really important to. To, like, see through it and to work. Work it out. And there's a lot of the brain that hallucinates. So, like, the. The. Is that. Do you know about that?

I would not say that.

Okay.

But we can get into that if you want.

Yeah, I don't. I just. It was an article I read and I was. But generally also a part where there's just like. You know, I think there was. There was an Irish mystic named Wu Weiwi, and he said, fight your ego. Try to destroy your ego. Try to see through your ego. The only problem is there is just a. There is like a. That sense of self is. At some point, there's a time when it's really important to. To, like, see through it and to work. Work it out, and then it doesn't exist. And I remember after 10 years of fighting it, that moment gave me massive relief to read that. I don't think it would have if I hadn't fought it for 10 years. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I think a couple of thoughts just to kind of pile onto that.

Yeah. Also a part where there's just like, you know, I think there was. There was an Irish mystic named Wu Weiwei, and he said, fight your ego. Try to destroy your ego. Try to see through your ego. The only problem is it doesn't exist. And I remember after 10 years of fighting it, that moment gave me massive relief.

So first is, you know, I think the ego. We know where it sort of comes from in the brain, and it's fascinating. So the ego.

I don't think it would have if I hadn't fought it for 10 years.

So I think a couple of thoughts just to Kind of pile onto that. Most likely comes from something called our default mode network, which is our sense of self. So the default mode network is the ability for you to recognize that you have an identity. So when you look in the mirror, you don't see a face. You see you, right? Like you have like an identification with that. That's probably the default mode network. The really interesting. So first is, you know, I think the ego. We know where it sort of comes from in the brain, and it's fascinating. So the. The ego most likely comes from something called our default mode network, which is our sense of self. So the default mode network is the ability for you to, like, recognize that you have an identity, right? So when you look in the mirror, you don't see a face. The thing is, a hyperactive default mode network is what makes you. You see you, right? Like you have like an identification with that. That's probably the default mode network. The really interesting. So if you look at. If you talk to someone who's clinically depressed, I am a loser. My family is better off without me. It's always me, me, me, me, me, me, me. I can't do this, I can't do that. And they don't think about anyone except for themselves in a weird way, right? So, like, if you're really struggling with depression, you'll notice that you're looking at yourself. You're thinking about yourself. I go out to with my. I go out with my friends. I'm thinking about how I look. The thing is, a hyperactive default mode network is what makes you depressed. So if you look at. If you talk to someone who's clinically depressed, I am a loser. My family is better off without me. It's always me, me, me, me, me, me, me. I can't do this, I can't do that. And they don't think about anyone except for themselves in a weird way, right? So, like, if you're really struggling with depression, you'll notice that I'm thinking about how they would have more fun if I wasn't here. I'm thinking about how I should have jumped into that conversation. I had something really funny to say. You're looking at yourself. You're thinking about yourself. I go out to with my. I go out with my friends. I'm thinking about how I look, but I didn't know how to jump in. And now I'm not saying anything. And now I'm just sitting here and like.

And they're like the exact opposite of charismatic.

Absolutely.

They are like, they are the people. Everyone's like, oh, God, could you. I just don't want to work with you. I don't. Please don't sit next to me. No, no, no. They're coming over. They're the people. They're creating that reality, and it is because they're the farthest away from that.

I'm thinking about how they would have more fun if I wasn't here. I'm thinking about how I should have jumped into that conversation. I had something really funny to say, but I didn't know how to jump in. And now I'm not saying anything. And now I'm just sitting here and like.

And they're like the exact opposite of charismatic.

Absolutely.

They are like authenticity and sense of self, whatever you want to call it.

So I. I think I just.

They are the people. Everyone's like, oh, God, could you. I just don't want to work with you. I don't. Please don't sit next to me. No, no, no. They're coming over just to love the.

Way you brought that back. So I think the more intern.

They're the people, they're creating that reality and is. Because they're the farthest away from that.

Divided you are that fundamental charisma. So you can be car salesman charisma by being internally divided, you can think one thing and be slick on top. That doesn't last long.

Yeah.

The core of this charisma I think we're talking about is to authenticity and.

Sense of self, whatever you want to call it.

So I think I just love the way you brought that back. So I think the more internally divided you are that fundamental charisma. So you can be car salesman charisma. By being internally divided, you can think one thing and be slick, not be internally divided. As long as you are feeling anxious and pretending to be confident, you can pretend to be confident. You can appear confident. You will never be charismatic.

I feel like we're gotten to a.

Really important core on top that doesn't last long. The core of this charisma I think we're talking about is to which is.

This lack of internal division or just a wholeness.

Absolutely right. So that's. That's where the authenticity. Because the moment that I have something within me and I'm pretending to be something else that's not authentic.

And. And that when I'm pointing to.

When I not be internally divided. As long as you are feeling anxious and pretending to be confident, you can pretend to be confident. You can appear confident. You will never be charismatic.

I feel like we're gotten to a really important core, which is this lack of internal division or just a wholeness.

Absolutely right. So that's. That's where the authenticity. Because the moment that I have something within me and I'm pretending to be.

Something, I'm saying be yourself. It is that sense of wholeness that I am pointing to. It is that thing. Oh, wait, that's the thing that I've always been. But when you went there in your mind, or the people who are listening.

If they went there, that's not authentic.

And when I'm pointing to when I. That wasn't like two parts. That was a sense of oneness. Maybe not even with self, but with everything.

Yeah. So beautiful. So I think this is what's really cool about the default mode network. So if we look at the fastest acting. So default mode network is over. Activation of default. Sorry, Depression is over. Activation.

I'm saying be yourself. It is that sense of wholeness that I am pointing to. It is that thing. Oh, wait, that's the thing that I've always been. But when you went there in your mind, or the people who are listening, if they went there, that wasn't like two parts. That was a sense of oneness. Maybe not even with self, but with everything. Yeah.

So beautiful. So I think this is what's really cool about the default mode network. So if we look at the fastest acting. So default of default mode network. Right. So I'm constantly thinking about myself. The fastest treatment, pharmacologic treatment for depression is ketamine. And ketamine is. Was originally not a psychiatric agent. It was used in anesthesia. Mode network is over. Activation of default. Sorry, Depression is over activation. Still is.

Tranquilizer.

Yeah, Dissociative agent.

Okay.

So tranquilizer puts you to sleep. It doesn't put you to sleep. You're actually awake with ketamine.

Okay.

It dissociates you. So your sense of self. Chin of default mode network. Right. So I'm constantly thinking about myself. The fastest treatment, pharmacologic treatment for depression is ketamine disappears. So this is the other cool thing. And ketamine is or was originally not a psychiatric agent. It was used in anesthesia. Still is.

Tranquilizer. Yeah.

Dissociative agent.

Okay.

Meditation deactivates the default mode. Right. Work. The other really cool thing. So tranquilizer puts you to sleep. It doesn't put you to sleep. You're actually awake with ketamine.

Okay.

It dissociates you, so your sense of self disappears. So this is the other cool thing is psychedelics. So, yeah.

Oh, well, let me finish.

I know, I know.

I'm with you.

We're with you. You're gonna say the opposite and we're still gonna agree. Yeah, so. So psychedelic. But, Alex, this is what's really fascinating. Meditation deactivates the default mode. Right. Work. The other really cool thing is psychedelics.

So, yeah.

Let me finish.

I know, I know.

I'm with you.

We're with you. You're gonna say the opposite, and we're still gonna agree. If you look at the studies on psychedelic healing, so people will ask people, when you take a psychedelic, what do you experience if you see colors? So psychedelics. This is what's really fascinating. Look at the studies on psychedelic healing. So people will ask people, when you take a psychedelic, what do you experience if you see colors, if you see cool things, you don't actually heal. The. The. The subjective experience that correlates with trauma, improvement, depression. Improvement with psychedelic substance use is ego death, ego dissolution, deactivation of the default mode network. And it is the sense that even at your deepest self, you know, there. There's the surface thoughts, then there's the ego, and then at that deepest self, you're not even you. You're everything experience with a different perception of themselves. I am no longer a doctor. I'm no longer alok. I'm no longer a man.

Yep.

And that's literally the default mode network. And this is why I feel really strongly about it. I'm confident this is correct because we have three different, you know, meditation, psychedelics, and ketamine all activate this thing. We know it's hyperactivated. So that's kind of like how we get to that self.

Yeah. Okay. I'm gonna geek out for a bit. First of all, I want to just put a warning out to anybody who's listening to this. Ketamine is highly addictive. I have seen some great human beings get completely destroyed by that drug.

Agreed.

Don't use ketamine. Yeah.

So.

Yeah. Or use it really sparingly. Really well with really great people with you. But. So that. That's one thing I want to say, just because I've suffered personal grief and loss through that. The second thing is, I agree, meditation does exactly what you're saying at a point. Meditation does exactly what you're saying. There is a point where people meditate. And how they meditate, they're reinforcing their ego. And so. So there's also that. So if you're meditating in a way where you're not trying to manage yourself or control yourself, then it's a higher chance of that disintegration happening than when you're trying to manage and control yourself. Saying that because I did that for a decade and I know exactly what that's like, which I think is actually part of the journey and important. So that's the things there. I think the. I couldn't agree more with the default mode network. I didn't know about that. It's such an amazing.

I'll send you some stuff.

Yeah, please. That is really cool. And my experience is those are three ways to do it. And there's other ways to do it too. A sense of loving yourself, I find, also does that same thing because one of the aspects of the somatic experience of love is that you're not giving or receiving anymore. Like, if you deeply go into that state, it's a lot like an amazing orgasm that you might have. Like, not the kind of like a porn orgasm, but the orgasm where you disintegrate is another place where you can find that love is another place you can find that deep, intimate relationship is also a place where you start noticing. We'll do this thing with groups where you've got like six or seven people and this person is anxious. This person is anxious. And we'll ask this person to hold the anxiety and literally feel the anxiety and they can basically no longer feel it. Tell me about it. It's a. It's a. I don't understand.

So I'm just trying to understand even logistics of it. So you're in a group of people, two people are feeling anxious. You ask one of them to hold.

No, no. Let's say we're working with one person and they're going through something and we'll ask people to hold their emotional states. And it makes it. In a group. It makes it that other people can't hold the emotional state. It's a really fast. Let me. Let me make it really practical. You've got a husband and wife dynamic and the husband always worries about money and the wife is always like, ah, relax, it's okay. And then one day the husband's like, I don't. I'm not worrying about money anymore, guaranteed. Or you're in a business meeting and there's the naysayer. And finally the team's just like, I'm done with this naysayer. We're going to get rid of this naysayer and then come back to that group in a month. And there's a new Naysayer. So there's this interesting dynamic of seeing when you see yourself through a community, there's a sense of self that disintegrates the most. The best experience of this, when this is fully understood happens in. That I've ever heard. I can't pronounce her name, unfortunately, but it's this tribe in Africa where if the, if there is a husband and wife that are having a problem, they don't see it as a husband and wife problem. They see it as a community problem. This is the way that in Ayurvedic medicine my fingernail is kind of rigid. That means it's a digestive problem, which I can also see in my eyes. They see this as a symptom of a community problem. And so the entire community comes and works with that, with that couple to heal that, because that's how they're going to heal their community.

I feel really moved as you talk about that.

Yeah, yeah. And that also is a disintegration of the sense of I. That it's not actually me. So it's there. I think there's lots of ways to do it. And every single one of them that I have ever run across, deeply healing, crazy healing. And as a matter of fact, when we do some of the work where we're asking other people to hold emotions, this, that experience of non. Duality of seeing self as everything happens consistently. So there's like, there's lots of modalities that, that I have found or experimented or played with that bring that thing and every single one of them deeply, deeply healing.

They restore wholeness by.

No, no, no. They show that we are whole.

Yeah. Restore implies it wasn't there to be.

Exactly.

Right. So. So yeah, I mean I, I think there's got to be a second conversation. So I just call that, when I teach that to my patients, I call it an emotional umbilical cord. So you're just connected and emotions pass back and forth. It's a really useful technique to use from a manipulative standpoint. Right. So if you're like, like in a challenging work environment.

Yeah.

Like I call. So someone taught this to me, one of my mentors sitting in someone's seat. Right. So if someone has a pattern of behavior and you start engaging in that pattern of behavior, it'll flip.

Yeah.

There's a certain amount of energy and I, I don't. I'm just using that as a general. There. There's a certain amount of stuff that is non physical that exists between us. And if I Don't hold it. You will. And this has been shown in research. So, like, because I, I, I want to go back to it, but this is really cool. So if you have a child with an anxiety disorder and you have a parent with an anxiety disorder, if you treat the parent without touching the child, whatever benefit the parent gets will get translated over, not one to one, but will basically get translated over into the child.

Oh, yeah, Right.

So we share emotions, and there's all kinds of empathic circuits that get activated. This is also where, like, charisma kind of comes in. Right. So when you're authentic and you're not internally divided. When there's no car salesman. Right. So, like, when we're sitting with a car salesman, we kind of get convinced. And this is why they use tactics like timeshare presentations. They know that we're not going to trust them, so they emotionally manipulate us. Yeah, they figure out how to do that. But even when you're in that situation, you can empathically detect that undercurrent of what they're not sharing with you. So the more unified you are, the more authentic you are, the more not yourself you are, the more connected you are, the more that will create this dyad of charisma that takes us back.

To the beginning of the dyad. I love it. I love it.

So I think the one thing that, you know, we've talked a little bit about is like, Charlie's journey, Joe had a journey. It sounds very similar to my own in the sense of you have to go through the motions. You know, you have to kind of do things the wrong way to realize it doesn't work. One of my favorite stories about this is if you sort of look at these spiritual leaders from the Indian subcontinent in ancient India, we had four castes, and the Brahmins were at the top. And they're the priests, they're the teachers of meditation. They're the gurus. Then you have the kings, the Kshatriyas below them. They're like nobility. The really interesting thing is that all of the enlightened people, not all, all the famous enlightened people that come out of the Indian subcontinent, none of them are priests. None of them are meditation teachers.

Interesting.

They're all kings. So Buddha was a king, Krishna was a king, Ram was a king. These are considered incarnations of Vishnu. Even Mahavir, the founder of Jainism, was a king. So one time I had a question for a teacher of mine. I was like, why are all the kings getting enlightened and none of the priests and the answer is really interesting. It's that you have to chase material things, get them, and then realize it doesn't work. Right. So if I tell anyone at home, like, oh, yeah, discover your true self, and you don't need to get the girl to be happy. There's a seed of, like, I don't know that. Right. You have to actually try something. Realize that it is insufficient to really look for something more.

So you guys both have these conversations with people on the Internet. You coach.

Yeah.

Tell me. Yeah. You're listening from your gut. You're picking up things like, what. What is going on? As for both of you, because you're. What I see is you seem to make people have these intellectual breakthroughs where they sort of see themselves in a different way. And I've also. And you'll. People will cry or laugh or just unfold or unwind in some way.

Yeah.

And what is going on in each of those encounters, those ways of being?

The most. Most essential is I'm listening. My experience is I'm listening. I'm listening to myself. I'm listening to them. I'm. I'm vulnerable in the listening and in the asking of questions. I'll often ask questions where I literally pucker to ask the question. And I usually know that that's a really good question. There's a feeling of vulnerability. There's a deep impartiality in me, even though it doesn't look like it, where I don't think I need to get that person anywhere. I'm not there to help them. This isn't. There's just. There's not a lot of I in the equation. So oftentimes, at the end of it, I don't remember what happened. I don't know if it went well, and I don't care. It's like, none of that. When I say I don't care, I don't mean I try not to care. I mean, I don't even conceive of it. Care. And then deeply empathetic. I'm feeling the thing they're feeling. So oftentimes, if I'm working with somebody, and I'll say, yeah, what's going on in your gut? I can't even see it. But because I'm so empathetically in with them that I'm actually. I'm able to feel it. I feel through my own body, through my own system.

So we've talked about that. You said that navel or the umbilical cord. How do we feel that more effectively? How do we attune empathetically? Is. Is that something we've already discussed?

Isn't. There's just, there's not a lot of I in the equation. So oftentimes at the end of it, I don't remember what happened, I don't know if it went well and I don't care. It's like none of that. When I say I don't care, I don't mean I try not to care. I mean I don't even conceive of it. Care. Um, and then deeply empathetic. I'm feeling the thing they're feeling. So. So what, what my experience generally, and I think this isn't a place where we might disagree. Oftentimes if I'm working with somebody and I'll say, yeah, what's going on in your gut? I can't even see it. But because I'm so empathetically in with them that I'm able to feel it. I feel through my own body, through my own system. There's a Zen story about young and an old monk walking down the path. And the young monk says, oh, I can start to like know what people are thinking. He's like, ah, what does that have to do with awakening? Oh, I can read people's thoughts. What does that have to be awakening? Like as he walks through, he's going, having all these different things. And my experience is that if you go after trying to figure those skills out, how does.

So we've talked about that, you said that navel or the umbilical cord, how do we feel that more effectively? How do we attune empathetically? Is that something we've already discussed?

So my experience generally, and I think this isn't a place where we might disagree. There's a Zen story about young and an old monk. It can be incredibly destructive. It can be like chasing money, it can be like chasing sex. It can really destroy somebody. It can create a much more solid form of ego. Whereas if you allow that stuff to unfold naturally because of your own self awareness. So that's how I would recommend. The path I would recommend is to understand yourself more and more and more walking down the path and the young monk says, oh, I can start to like, the more you understand yourself, this stuff naturally occurs.

So tuning to your own gut, to your own heart.

Correct.

And then when you're listening to someone, you'll just feel. It's like, oh, I feel, yeah.

So I did this form of breathwork for like seven years or so where it Was kind of an extinct form of Reiki and breath work that I would do. And when I was, you know what people are thinking, he's like, ah, what does that have to do with awakening? Oh, I can read people's thoughts. What does that have to be awakening? Like as he walks through, he's going. Having all these different things. Two, three years into it, I could look at somebody and my experience is that if you go after trying to figure those skills out, it can be incredibly destructive. It can be like chasing money, it can be like chasing sex. It can be body and know what emotions they were holding and like how they were raised. Not because anybody said this arc means critical parent and this means like a mother. Right. It was because I actually just went through all that stuff in myself. And so that's the way I recommend doing it. Because that's the thing that actually gets you to the really destroy somebody. It can create a much more solid freedom that you're really looking for beyond the power of being able to do it form of ego. Whereas if you allow that stuff to unfold naturally because of your own self awareness. So that's how I would recommend. The path I would recommend is to understand yourself more and more and more. More.

Yeah, I've. I've had at times a spreadsheet approach which is like, you know, if, you know, she posts these kind of photos on Instagram, the dad wasn't there, whatever it is. And yeah. One, people don't like to be analyzed that way. Even if it's true. And it is not actual empathy. It is a.

The more you understand yourself, this stuff naturally occurs.

Repetition of what someone who had empathetic attunement might. Might have. So tuning to your own gut, to your own heart.

Correct.

And then when you're listening to someone, you'll just feel. It's like, oh, I feel said in the moment.

Yeah.

Okay. So that makes sense. Go through oneself and it'll just sort of unfold.

So I did this form of breathwork for like seven years or so.

What's going on with you when you're having your conversation?

My first question is, why did you think that would be a point of our disagreement?

Because it sounded like there was some part of the traditions that you had it actually. Yeah. So it was an assumption on my part about kundalini work. Okay. Which is that oftentimes where it was kind of an extinct form of Reiki and breathwork that I would do. And when I was. There's. Oh, this is the thing that you will get from this Kundalini work that I've seen two, three years into it, I could look at somebody's body and know what emotions they were holding and, like, how they were raised in the real world. So that's where I thought we might disagree.

Yeah. So I mean, I don't think we're going to disagree.

Okay, great. Great. Yeah. When I saw your face.

So it was like, you know, because I think, like. And that's the key thing. That was an assumption that. That you were not. Not to blame you or anything. Right. But like, I don't feel that didn't come from me.

It not because anybody said this arc means critical parent and this means like I did. That come.

Came from your understanding of what Kundalini work is. Right. So. So in a sense, anyway, I don't know.

Right. It was because I actually just went through all that stuff in myself. And so that's the way I recommend doing it because that's the thing that actually gets you to the fruit.

I was just kind of confused because I was like, no, this is like, this is exactly. This is it.

Exactly.

So can I ask you a specific question about this? Last time you were here, we sat down after and I started sharing with you that, you know, there was stuff coming up in my life and you're. And you're like, I see that. I like, yeah. I said, what do you mean you.

See that freedom that you're really looking for beyond the power of being able to do it.

Yeah. I've. I've had at times a spreadsheet approach which is like, you know, if, you know, she posts these kind of photos. You said, oh, third eye shit. Yeah. And I'm curious if you could elaborate.

Absolutely. So. So I think this is what's really. This is going to get like a touch theoretical.

Sure.

But not the touch theoretical. I realized something recently. Credibility is very far away from truth. So like, oh, I love that he gets it.

So all on Instagram, the dad wasn't there, you know, whatever it is. And yeah. One, people don't like to be analyzed that way. Even if it's true. And it is not actual empathy. It is a repetition of what someone who had empathetic attunement might. Might.

I'll walk you all through it.

Yeah.

So if I want to say something that's credible said in the moment.

Yeah.

Okay. So that makes sense. Go through oneself and it'll just sort of unfold.

Let's say I want to say something to you and I want to make myself credible. How do I make myself credible if I'm talking to you?

You have to. What's going on with you when you're having your conversation? Understand my world to a degree and speak.

I have to understand your world. Right. So the more ignorant you are, the more credible I have to be. You kind of get that. So credibility only works when the. Like. Why do we need credibility? Because we don't know. We don't trust. We don't know that this thing is true. Right. That's why we need to be credible. I need you to believe me. But believing requires an absence of knowledge. Like, by definition, if I know where my keys are, that's different from believing where my keys are. One is a statement of fact and one is a statement of belief. One is a statement of ignorance. So my first question is, why did you think that would be a point of our disagreement?

Because it sounded like there was some part of the traditions that you had. It was actually. Yeah. So it was an assumption on my part about Kundalini work. Okay. Which is that oftentimes there is. Oh, this is the thing that you will get from this Kundalini work that I've seen.

One of the things that I've started to do recently is, like, worry less.

In the real world. So that's where I thought we might disagree.

Yeah. So, I mean, it's about being credible. I showed up and I tried to be credible, but what I realized is, like, credibility assumes the ignorance of the person, but truth is truth. Whether people believe it or not is, like, up to them. The more knowledgeable they are, the more they will know that I'm correct. Which is why you laughed. Right. And. And the lesson. I don't think we're gonna disagree.

Okay, great. Great. Yeah. Clearly, when I saw your face.

So it was like, you know, because I think, like. And that's the key thing that was an assumption. Eligible they are, the more they'll. They're likely to think that I'm an idiot, which is like, okay, I love this and that. That you were not. Not to blame you or anything. Right. But, like, that didn't come from me. It came from your understanding of what Kundalini work is. Right. So.

So I just want to say you've helped me a lot with this because the phrase that I've understood from you is, it is not your responsibility to be understood. It is your responsibility to speak the truth. But I have often done the work.

In a sense anyway.

I don't think of being credible, of making myself understood. And in such I'm diluting the me or whatever it is that I'm saying.

So I, I think there are times where it's important to be credible. So when I'm a doctor, like, I want to be credible first and truthful second. But there are times where there, there's. There are times for credibility and there are times for truth. This is a conversation where I think truth comes first. So what Joe is describing, you know, as he does this kind of work is in the Sanskrit, the word this is a siddhi. I was just kind of confused because I was like, no, this is like, this is exactly. This is exactly.

Can I ask you a specific question about this? Last time you were here, we sat down after and I started sharing with you that, you know, there was stuff coming up in my life and you're. And you're like, I see that. I like I said, what do you mean you see that? You said, oh, third eye shit.

Yeah.

And I'm curious if you could elaborate.

Absolutely. So. So I think this is what's really. This is going to get like a touch theoretical.

Sure.

I don't know if you've heard that term, but so, so this is really fascinating. There's like this thing called Patanjali's Yoga Sutras, which is like the bible of yoga. So if you like, look at like the seminal text on what we call yoga, a dude, or maybe lots of people named Patanjali, woman, we don't really know, wrote this text about what is an asana? What is a posture? How does the mind work? Like, it's like all the really basic stuff that modern science basically like follows. Like all the stuff about meditation and things like that. Like it's. But not the touch theory. I realized something recently. Credibility is very far away from truth. So, like, I love that he gets it. So I'll basically root it in Patanjali or captured in Patanjali. The third chapter. It's four chapters. The third chapter is really short and it's just a list of things. So he says, like in chapter one, he's like an asana. Any yoga posture has two requirements. That's it. There are all these postures. Downward dog this, that all the postures, Asanas have two things in common. One is that they're. It's stable, it's not motion. The second is it brings the attention to the present. That's all an asana is. I'll walk you all through it. So if I want to say something that's credible, let's say I want to say Something to you. And I want to make myself credible. How do I make myself credible if I'm talking to you?

You have to.

You can make whatever asanas you want. You can make up your own yoga postures as long as you are stable and you were focused on the present. That is the asana. That's the essence. It's the equation. Chapter three is the development of psychic powers. And he's like, by the way, if you do these practices, you will develop these powers. These things are not believable. Fair enough. Whatever. They're not credible. Fine. He just says, by the way, this is what's going to happen.

Addendum, understand my world to a degree.

And speak to you. I have to understand your world. Right. So the more. Not. Addendum. He's like, if you walk the spiritual path, you will develop abilities that will appear ignorant. You are. The more credible I have to be. You kind of get that. So credibility only works when the. Like, why do we need credibility? Because we don't know. We don't trust. We don't know that this thing is true. Right. That's why we need to be credible. I need you to believe me, but believe it supernatural.

Appear.

Appear.

Appear. Really critical word.

Yeah. Well, that's why we add it, right?

Yeah.

They're not supernatural.

Yeah.

They're just hard to access. And there's a whole conversation which I can go into a bunch of detail. I've had a lot of. I'm not saying I'm psychic or anything like that, but there's like, whole systems of understanding this stuff. But these requires an absence of knowledge. Like, by definition, if I know things are also incredibly dangerous. My keys are. That's different from believing where my keys are. One is a statement of fact and one is a state. So I want y' all to understand. I think. I think Joe gets this. So a little bit of what we do seems exceptional. It's not exceptional. So, like, people will. I mean, it's exceptional, but it's not supernatural. So people will, like, ask me, right? So, like, I'm a psychiatrist. This is how I know what I do. No, I. I do what I do because of my spiritual practice, not psychiatry. Treatment of belief. One is a statement of ignorance. So one of the things that I've started to do recently is, like, worry less about being credible. I showed up and I tried to be credible, but what I realized is, like, credibility assumes. The ignorance is there, and it has a role. But my intuition and what I know about people in the same way that Joe Knows things about people and stuff like that. I don't think that that can be taught in psychiatric training because if that was taught in psychiatric training, the majority of psychiatrists would be able to do what I do. And it's not that what I do is special. It's just like if you train in that way, you will learn how to do that. Very simple. Joe has trained in that way, I have trained in that way. Prince of the person. But truth is truth. Whether people believe it or not is up to them. The more knowledgeable they are, the more. Which is why we both do it. You can train in that way. Anyone can train in that way. A big part of what we do in our community is try to teach them that stuff so that they realize I'm not special. You can do it too. It is your birthright. They will know that I'm correct. Which is why you laughed. Right? And the less. Right. So I get to where Joe gets. But like I come there from a different way. Sort of.

Yeah.

So the other thing that's really scary is like, you know, I see these posts sometimes on the Internet of if I were a billion knowledgeable they are, the more they'll. They're likely to think that I'm an idiot. Which is like, okay, I love this.

I just want to say you've helped me a lot with this because the phrase that I've understood from you is it is not your responsibility to be understood.

I would just start fixing problems and. Okay, so this is like really a statement of ignorance. Like the moment that you have great power and you start exercising it, you realize how much you fuck things up. So like the moment that you have something really powerful, like let's just say hypothetically, I'm not even saying these things exist. Okay. I've hypothesized neuroscientific mechanisms through which we can do, quote, unquote, it is your.

Responsibility to speak the truth. But I have often done the work of being credible, of making myself understood. And in such I'm diluting the me or whatever it is that I'm saying.

So. So I think there are times where it's important to be credible. So when I'm a doctor, like I want to be credible first and truthful second. But they're supernatural things. It's not really supernatural. It's just a finely, finely in tuned empathic circuit attending in the right way. Like all kinds of stuff which we can get to in a second about what I do, how I would explain what I do, which I think Is the same as what you. Not the same, but, you know, the same. Yeah, there's absolutely a neuroscience. There, there must be a neuroscience correlate. The question is, does neuroscience sufficiently explain it or is there something beyond neuroscience? There are times where there, there's. There are times for credibility and there are times for truth. This is a conversation where I think truth comes first. So what Joe is describing, you know, as he does, that's a debate for philosophers. So what happens though is the moment that you start exercising these powers, you get caught, you get trapped by life in a. In a way more vice like grip. And, and I think this is where like, you know, like you quoted a Zen, you know, parable. Yeah, I'm going to quote. I think it's notorious. Big mo money, mo problems. This kind of work is in the Sanskrit, the word. This is a siddhi. I don't know if you've heard that term. But so, so this is really fascinating. There's like this thing called Patanjali's yoga sutras, which is like the bible of yoga. So if you like look at like the seminal text on what we call yoga dupes, which like, is really confusing for people until you have it uter maybe lots of people named Patanjali, woman we don't really know wrote this text. The number of patients that I've had that have windfalls of cash flow, speaking of ketamine, will. Will burn through millions of dollars of drugs. Right? Like, like their lives get. And it's not that money doesn't buy happiness. It does. It buys happiness about what is an asana? What is a posture? How does the mind work? Like, it's like all the really basic stuff that modern science basically like follows. Like all the stuff about meditation and things like that. Like, it's up to a point if you can't pay your bills, like you have no financial security, money will basically root it in Patanjali or captured and potentially the third chapter, it's four chapters. Absolutely. Remove the things that get in the way of your happiness. But at some point, the more power you have. Like the third chapter is really short and it's just a list of things. So he says, like in chapter one, he's like an asana. Any yoga, you can get trapped by life way easier.

Can I just. What are these powers that you're talking. And it doesn't mean. So you're using money as like in a thing. But do you mean that empathetic circuit? Is that what you're saying?

No, I mean, so I would Refer you to the text.

Okay.

Posture has two requirements. That's it. There are all these postures. Downward dog this, that all the postures. Asanas have two things in common. One is that they're. It's stable, it's not motion. I'm not making these claims. You guys can read the text, but Anjali says, if you want telepathy, do this. If you want to travel through time, do this. If you want to turn into the size of an atom or the size of a universe, do this. If you want to know the moment of your death, do this. There's a really simple practice that I can share with y'.

All.

If you just breathe, you'll notice that your breath has a certain length. So if you like, put your hand, like face up below your. The second is it brings the attention to the present. That's all an asana. So you can make whatever asanas you want. You can make up your own yoga postures. As long as you were stable and you were focused on the present nose and you breathe out, you'll notice that the breath goes a certain way. That is the asana. That's the essence. It's the equation. Chapter three is the develop. If you do that practice for a decade, you'll understand all kinds of things.

Okay, got it.

Okay, got it. Like, you do it every day for like an hour for a decade. And this is the time scale that we're talking about. I started doing a month or practice 21 years ago in my experiment of psychic powers. And he's like, by the way, if you do these practices, you will develop these powers. These things are not believable. There were basically three levels of stuff that I got through that that were at seven year stretches. I don't know why, it's weird, but this is like consistent practice. Enough. Whatever. They're not credible. Fine. He just says, by the way, this is what's going to happen.

Addendum.

Every day for seven years. In the culture that we live in, the reason that everyone doesn't believe what meditation is capable of is because they don't understand. Not addendum. He's like, if you walk the spiritual path, you will develop abilities that will appear. Saying the time scale. Everyone's like, use this app for five minutes. Do a different guided meditation of supernatural.

Appear.

Appear.

Appear. Really critical word.

Yeah. Well, that's why we add it, right? They're not supernatural. Yeah, they're just hard to access every day. This is like telling someone, okay, I want you to paint for 10 minutes today. Draw for 10 minutes tomorrow, go for a swim, 10 minutes the next day. If you want to build something through meditative practice, you have to do the same practice. And there's a whole conversation, which I. I can go into a bunch of detail. I. I've had a lot of. I'm not saying I'm psychic or not necessarily every day, but basically every day for years or decades in order to truly see the fruit of it.

So even. Even in my question of what are you doing in that moment?

It's like, anything like that, but there's, like, whole systems of understanding this stuff. But these.

What did I do for the prior 20 years? Is almost the answer.

So I think. No, I would say that that's not. I would say there's a distinction. So there is 20 years. That's not what he's doing. 20 years is what he has become. So there's. These things are also incredibly dangerous. So I want y' all to understand. I think Joe gets this. So a little bit of what we do seems exceptional. It's not exceptional. So, like, people will. I mean, it's. Except the difference between playing an instrument and, like, playing a guitar is different from becoming a guitar. What he's been doing for 20 years is building a guitar. When he sits with a person, he's playing the strings. Does that make sense?

Yeah. Okay.

So here's what I would say he does, which is what I do, which is just the same, but different, but it's not supernatural. So people will, like, ask me, right? So, like, I'm a psychiatrist. This is how I know what. The more empty you become, the more that you remove your ego from the equation, then you can attend fully to someone else. I do know. I do what I do because of my spiritual practice, not psychiatry. The analogy that I would use, this is also, like, a meditative kind of thing, which is like the story of two cups. So this guy comes to the Buddha, and he's like, I've studied with a bunch of teachers there, and it has a role. But my intuition and what I know about people in the same way that Joe knows things about. I'm not enlightened yet. Help me out. And Buddhist, like, cool people and stuff like that. I don't think that that can be taught in psychiatric training, because I'll help you out. So then Buddhist, like, starts teaching him things. But the guy's like, but hold on a second. I studied with this other guy, and he said this. And if that was taught in psychiatric training, the majority of psychiatrists would be able to do what I do. And. And it's not that what I do is special. It's just like, if you train in that way, you will learn how to do that. And. But the next day is like, okay, whatever. So then do this. And he's like, I started with this other guy who did this, and then Buddha one day tells him, okay, come back and then bring two cups, Bring a cup of water and bring a cup of milk. He says, okay, now take the cup of water, take the cup of milk, Pour the milk into the very simple. Joe has trained in that way. I have trained in that way. A cup of water. And the guy's like, what? What do you mean? And I'd encourage everybody to pause the video right now and do this at home. Take a cup of milk, take a cup of water. Pour the cup of milk into the cup of water. Which is why we both do it. You can train in that way. Anyone can train in that way. A big part of what we do in our community is try to teach them that stuff so that they realize I'm not special. You can do it too. It is your birthright. Have them both full at the beginning, what happens? The milk overflows. If you want to learn something, you need to empty your mind first. If you want to sit with someone, you have to empty yourself. When Joe says he attends to people, the key thing there is that he is empty. So what the other person is enters him, and then he attends, right? So I get to where Joe gets, but like, I come there from a different way, sort of ends to himself, but it's not what he feels. He isn't. So the. The other thing that's really scary is like, you know, I see these posts sometimes on the Internet of if I were a billion instrument. He's like a radio wave. He's like a radio antenna picking up other things. But the more that you have your own there, I would just start fixing problems and. And shit going on within yourself. When I sit down so I can do this with random strangers. I can never do it with my wife. The moment I sit with my wife and she tells me how annoying, I okay, so this is like really a statement of ignorance. Like the moment that you have great power and you start exercising it, you realize how much you fuck things up. I'm like, no, I'm not. I am adding something to the equation. This is also why it's easier to talk. So like, the moment that you have something really powerful, like, let's just say, hypothetically, talk to strangers. And listen to strangers because there's no ego, there's no relationship. Right. You can talk to a stranger on a park bench, pour out your heart and soul and it is easy to do because you. There's an emptiness to it. There's no ego, there's no attachment. I'm not even saying these things exist. Okay. There, there. I've hypothesized neuroscientific mechanisms through which we can do quote unquote. So I, I would say that he does it, I do it. I. Supernatural things. It's not really supernatural. It's just a finely, finely in tuned empathic circuit attending in the right way. Like all kinds of stuff which we can get to in a second about what I do. How I would explain what I do which I think is the same as what you. Not the same, but you know, the same.

Yeah.

Do it in a slightly different way. So I operate from a different place. My antenna is tuned to a slightly different frequency.

My wife does it in a different way too. Yeah, it's like if, if, if he's here on the spectrum I'm here on.

There's absolutely a neuroscience there. There must be a neuroscience correlate. The question is, does neuroscience sufficient the spectrum.

My wife is over here on the spectrum. My wife will just literally say almost nothing and yeah. And she'll just. What if you just put that two inches behind yourself and yeah. Just another different way.

Gently explain it. Or is there something beyond neuroscience?

This is what I. This is what's beautiful about it is that I used to conceive of and you can bucket charisma to. There's types of people who have really strong.

That's a debate for philosophers. So what happens though is the moment that you start exercising visions and type.

Of people who have high convictions and types of people who are funny. But what I'm hearing is, you know, if it is this. These powers you get caught divinely offered gift.

You get trapped by life in a. In a way more vice like grip.

It comes in as many different flavors as there are people. And there are things that we seem to be tracking in that there's an emptiness, there's a listening, there's a thing. But the way that your wife shows up is going to be with her own.

And, and I think this is where like you know, like you quoted a Zen, you know, parable. Yeah, I'm gonna quote flavor.

So in a way, and this is what I'm seeing in my own life there was always a seeking what's the.

Right thing to say, I think it's notorious big mo money mo problem now.

In this situation that I can distribute in an online course and tell everybody, here's what to say to start the conversation. Here's what to say. Three minutes into the conversation. Here's how to get the date. And that's helpful, you know, to have the text message to send the girl. It's necessary, I think, for me at.

A stage to like, which like is really confusing for people. Until you have it. The number of patients that I've had that have windfalls of cash flow. Speaking.

What do I text? What do I text? What I text?

Give me like, hey, you know, I know this is crazy, but would you like to go out sometime?

Okay. Think of ketamine. Will. Will burn through milk.

Okay. I can get through it. But this is where I'm super fascinated.

As billions of dollars of drugs.

This spiritual thing connects with charisma. And the Greek word has just fascinated me. I was like, why did I pick charisma? And there is something there that was always there. What is charisma on command? Can you open up to that?

You that right? Like. Like their lives get. And it's not that money doesn't buy happiness. It does. It buys happiness.

Says the perfect thing that is you in the moment instead of the objectively perfect thing for the moment. I don't know if that makes any sense, but that is okay. So given that. That there's all of these foundational things that are established prior to that moment in the moment. For someone who, you know, hopefully is also doing these practices, maybe taking your course or your course or going through it in the moment, it's up to a point.

If you can't pay your bills, like you have no financial security, money will.

What is something that can be done to begin this process, just or absolutely.

Remove the things that get in the way of your happiness. But at some point, the more power you have, like, you can get trapped by life way easier.

Can I just. What are these powers that you're talking. And it doesn't mean. So help it along a little bit to get to that place of emptiness or ability to. You're using money as like a thing. But do you mean that empathetic circuit? Is that what you're saying?

No, I mean. So I would refer you to the text.

Okay, show up and listen in the way that is most deeply effective. Or to say the phrase that is most deeply effective. Or even. Maybe my language is not even what you would choose.

I would give this one as one of the. One of the practices that I notice works really well quickly, and it works well because when people taste it, they want to keep doing it. So part of the practice is picking a practice.

I'm not making these claims, you guys can read the text, but Dunjali says, if you want telepathy, do this. If you want to travel through time, do this. If you want to turn into the size of an atom or the size of a universe, do this. If you want to know the moment of your death, do this. There's a really simple practice that I can share with you all. If you just breathe, you'll notice that.

Your practice that you actually will keep doing or it's. And, and this practice has a lifespan. Like most of the things that I would, I would suggest most of the things would have a lifespan. And it might be 10, 20 years, but it has a lifespan. And. But what I notice a great way is that so typically we have a negative self talk or a repetitive voice in the head. According to.

Breath has a certain length. So if you like put your hand like face up below your nose and you breathe out, you'll notice that the breath goes a certain way.

Mayo clinic. It's like 50 to 60,000 thoughts a day or something like that, most of them repetitive. And people at some point notice them, and then at some point they want to get rid of them. But the more they resist, the more it persists and so it doesn't actually change.

So if you do that practice for a decade, you'll understand all kinds of things.

Okay, got it.

Okay, got it. Like you do it every day for like an hour for a decade. And, and this is the time scale that we're talking about. I started doing a month or practice 21 years ago.

In my experience, a very cool practice that starts emptying you out really quickly is every day or every three days. Pick a way you want to react to that voice in the head that you've never reacted that way before. So typically though, what happens is the voice says something and our response is either, yeah, yeah, you're right, that's the charismatic part of you that you're following. Or it's sometimes, yeah, you're right.

But there were basically three levels of.

Fucking do it, asshole. Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm still gonna eat that chocolate cake, right? Those are one of the react stuff.

That I got through that that were at seven years stretches. I don't know why, it's weird. But this is like consistent practice every day for seven years. And the culture that we live in. The reason that everyone doesn't believe what meditation is capable of is because they don't understand.

So we have. But you could have literally an infinite kind.

I was just thinking you could like clap and have a ton of.

Understand the time scale. Everyone's like, use this app for five minutes, do a different guided meditation.

You could have like, it's a birthday party, a surprise party.

You could. Yes, you could. You could, you could say, wow, I could really use you to be a better boss. Or you could say, no. Or you could say, I see how scared you are and I'm right here with you. You can have literally a hundred different responses.

What I'm noticing in me is that some of those every day, this is.

Like telling someone, okay, I want you.

To felt like, oh, I want that one. And some of them didn't. So even in just listening to those options, I was like, oh, I like that last one the best. Like, I see.

And so, but my, my recommendation is experiment for a while. Just get to know how. What, what happens to that internal self talk that we consider to be us. What happens when you react to it differently?

And I paint for 10 minutes today, draw for 10 minutes tomorrow, go for a swim, 10 minutes the next day. If you want to build something through meditative practice, you have to do the same practice, not necessarily every day, but basically every day for years or decades.

Fine. Just the experimentation will help you unfold the thing very, very quickly, a lot quicker than in order to truly see.

The fruit of it.

So even in my question of what are you doing in that moment?

It's like for me, I notice people unfold it a lot quicker than some early stages of meditation even. But it's really important. The critical point is you're not trying to get rid of it. And the critical point is that it's an experimentation. You're learning about it, you're in wonder about it. And if you can do that with the internal self talk, it is an incredibly effective tool. And I'm hoping that what you're about to tell me is that there's a Sanskrit word for this practice, but I haven't seen any other. I haven't seen it before.

Once again, Joe, I'm impressed by. So I could give you an hour long lecture about why that's a great practice practice. But, but, but the, the two things that I would say is, first is if that practice is hard for you, I'll give you guys an introductory practice because I, I love it. I can't top that. Yeah, All I can do is give you an on ramp onto that if that's hard. And that is brush with your non dominant hand. So what. What I strongly rec.

What did I do for the prior 20 years is. Is almost the answer.

Absolutely.

So. So, so I think no, I would say that that's not. I would say there's a distinction. So there is. 20 year. That's not what he's doing. 20 years is what his. He has become. So there's a difference between playing an instrument and like playing a guitar is different from becoming a guitar. What he's been doing for 20 years is building a guitar. When he sits with a person, he's playing the strings. And people do.

Totally. That would still work, right?

That's so good. So. So it's so hard with the cognitions that we have. There's a whole I. It's so weird. So sometimes I'll do a lecture like that is like deep. Does that make sense?

Yeah. Okay.

So here's what I would say he does, which is what I do, which is just the same, but different spirituality. And it clicks for people. So I did this lecture on vasanas, which are basically repetitive mental habits. The more empty you become, the more that you remove your ego from the equation, then you can attend fully to someone else. The analogy that I would use this is also like a meditative kind of thing, which is like the. The story of two cups. So this so great lecture that really like popped and. And so I'd say that the problem with those is we're so engaged with them. Right. It's so challenging. And I know why Joe recommends this, because if you learn it from Joe, he's going to teach it in a way where you can do it that you can't do on your own. Like, I get that. Right? So you give them a certain amount of dick. Comes to the Buddha and he's like, I studied with a bunch of teacher initiation that allows them to do it. But it's really hard because those repetitive thoughts are oftentimes the ones that are, I'm not enlightened yet, help me out. And Buddha's like, cool. Hardest to resist. It's the hardest to do something new. So I just start with a, I'll help you out. So then Buddha's like starts teaching him things. But the guy's like, but little. A touch of neuroplasticity and practice the skill of responding to things in different ways. And the easiest way to do that, brush with your non dominant hand. Right? You can only do it for a couple of days. Joe will give you something that'll work for 20 years. Do mine for like three days.

Yeah.

Then try Joe's if you're having trouble. But if you can go straight to Joe's, go straight to Joe's.

Great.

Hold on a second. I started with this other guy, and he said this. And then. But the next day he's like, okay, whatever. So then do this. And he's like, I started with this other guy, he did this. And then with the one day.

That's a really great. Yeah, yeah.

I love all of this.

Okay.

And part of the reason that I didn't start down this path is because when I looked out into the world and it wasn't the same guys at the time, but when I look at a Donald Trump or an Andrew Tate, I do not imagine that they are doing this sort of a thing. And yet they are incredibly influential. Powerful people seem to follow them. Like them, trust them.

Poll tells them, okay, come back and then bring two cups. Bring a cup of water and bring a cup of milk. He says, okay, now take the cup of water, Take the cup of milk, pour the milk into the cup of water. And the guy's like, what? What do you mean? And I'd encourage everybody to pause the video right now and do this at home. Take a cup of milk, take a cup of water, pour the cup of milk into the cup of water. Have them both full. At the beginning, what happens? The milk overflows.

Rising figures for sure. What is going on? Like, if this. If this takes you to the essence of charisma, what is going on with these seemingly charismatic individuals that are. That, as far as I can tell, have not followed a path that is at all like these ones. Is that a pseudo charisma? Is there something else going on there? Is it. What. How do you understand it?

What I notice is this is a really challenging topic because it's. So we're using two people who are very divisive.

Sure.

So to some degree, take the guy.

If you want to learn something, you need to empty your mind first. If you want to sit with someone, you have to empty yourself. When Joe says he attends to people, the key thing there is that he.

Is empty I in your office who doesn't appear to do this or something.

So there's a couple of things that I would say is that so what.

The other person is enters him, and then he attends to himself, but it's not what he feels. He is an instrument. He's like a radio wave. He's like a radio antenna picking up.

Without judgment on developmental scale or anything like that. My daughters are three and a half years apart. What I notice is that's who kids adore is like they listen to other kids that are just slightly older than.

More than other things. But the more that you have your own going on within yourself. When I sit down so I can do this with random strangers, I can never do it with my wife. The moment I sit with my wife and she tells me how annoying I am, I'm like, no, I'm not. Yeah, I am adding something to the equation. This is also why it's easier to talk.

My whole life I have been following reluctantly, questioning the authorities that are just have a little more understanding than I have at this moment.

Talk to strangers and listen to strangers because there's no ego.

And then I'm following that. So I think that there's a natural. One part is I think there's a natural piece to that. The other thing that's interesting is that people really want to buy the bridge. You know, they really want to buy. We all really want to buy the.

There's no relationship. Right. You can talk to a stranger on.

A park bench bridge until we don't. So there's something natural in us in the evolutionary path to have somebody who has the answer pour out your heart.

And soul and it is easy to do.

Or have somebody who feels assured, who feels conviction, and we want that. If you look at like whether it's our rock stars or our politicians, it's like there's something in us that wants to feel safe. And if we follow somebody who looks like they're assured and, and in their minds they are, I mean, empathetically, we. They are convicted.

Yeah, there's a. We're like tuning in to like, oh, they, they believe this through and through.

They do, yeah. That is a like. And. And if they don't, the third time they say it, they will. And so, so there's like this part of.

Because you. There's an emptiness to it. There's no ego, there's no attachment. So I, I would say that he does it, I do it. I do it in a slightly different way. So I operate from a different place. My antenna is tuned to a slightly different frequency.

My wife does it in a different way too. Yeah, it's like if, if, if he's here on the spectrum, I'm here on the spectrum. My wife is over here on the spectrum. My wife will just literally say almost nothing that it's like oh, cool. There's some conviction that I now I don't have to actually take responsibility for myself. And then I think there's something really that, that that's another part that makes it that we. And so some of it is this very natural thing that we want. I think the other piece that's occurring is that as a society, like we talked about, like as a society, we want homeostasis. We want balance as well. And so what I notice is that when any sign.

Yeah.

And she'll just what if you just put that two inches. It gets righteous when there's an. If there's no naysayer in the room, eventually the naysayer behind yourself and the toad to just another different way.

Well, this is what I. This is what's beautiful about it is that I used to conceive of and you can bucket charisma. So there's types of people who have.

Really strong air comes up. If any side gets righteous, there's the other part of it. Yeah. And so but to me, the more the, the. The. The more.

Visions and type of people who have high convictions and types of people who are funny. But what I'm hearing is, you know, if it is this divinely offered gift.

Great question. The, the question that is more productive. The more productive question is when you're faced with somebody like that what's. What's. How can they be a. An avenue to your freedom to. To your unwinding to your. And can you see their point of view? Can you understand the value that they provide? Can you not see their point? Can you see outside of their point of view? Can you not.

It comes in as many different flavors as there are people and there are things that we seem to be tracking and that there's an empty.

Can you use them as a way to dissolve your ego? Assuming there's an ego, but right that you. Can you use that person?

There's a listening. There's a thing. But the way that your wife shows up is going to be with her own flavor. So in a way and this is what I'm seeing in my own life there was always a seeking what's the right thing to say now in this situation that I can distribute in an online course and tell everybody here's what to say to start the conversation. Here's what to say three minutes into the conversation. Here's how to get the. The date. And that's helpful, you know, to have.

The text message to send as a way to dissolve. And it was funny you said earlier this great Thought of, you know, there's a joke in your community about being a guru, and I. If anybody says. Calls me a guru, oftentimes what I'll say is, like, yeah, I'm just like, a guru. I'm just the next iteration where I want all the power to be in your hands, not in mine. And it's a good one, right?

Love it.

But the. But it's the but. It's that same thing.

It's like, it's necessary, I think, for me at a stage to, like, what do I text?

What do I text? What do I text?

Give me, like, hey, you know, I know this is crazy, but would you like to go out sometime?

Okay. If. If that person has you pissed off.

Or enraptured or enraptured.

They got you.

Yeah, yeah, I'm okay. I can get through it.

But.

But this is where I'm super fascinated, as at you.

Right. That you're not. You're not actually in yourself anymore.

This spiritual thing connects with charisma. And the Greek word is just fascinating.

And you're. And you. There's so much to learn about your trigger, about how your projection or all that stuff that can get to your own freedom instead of, like, you know, what makes them that.

Me, I was like, why did I pick charisma? And there is something there that was always there. What is correct? It's interesting, because the opposition to Trump and the opposition to Andrew Tate is arguably the thing that has fueled.

Absolutely.

And that same thing is occurring internally, which is when you see someone who is so certain. So this. On command, it can. Can you open up to that? You. That says the perfect thing. That is you in the moment. So that. And, you know, I'm gonna. No, they're not. And instead of, like, what. What breaks inside or what hurts or what. When I come into contact with that. That's an interesting practice. Instead of the objectively perfect thing for the moment. I don't know if that makes any sense, but that is. Okay. So given that.

Yeah. And. And that's the. And. And we all want to be able to fall. Oh, yes, take care of me. And we all want to resist it. It's like. And all of that's in ourselves, and it's all happening in ourselves. If you're really bothered by Donald Trump, I guarantee you, you have a voice in your head that sounds a lot like Donald, that there's all of these.

Foundational things that are established prior to that moment, in the moment. For someone who Trump just. Yeah. This is how.

Yeah. No.

Yeah. Oh, interesting.

Yeah. And if you. Right. So. So anyways, that. That's. That's the place where I think that there's freedom rather than to.

It's. Oh, it's the. I mean I'm.

I'm.

I like the union psychoanalysis. But so for me, I'm conceiving like the return of the repressed.

The.

The extern. Shadow in me, which is. You know, hopefully he's also doing these practices maybe taking your course or your course or going through it in the moment. What is something that can be done to begin this process just. Or help it along a little bit to get to that place of emptiness or ability to show up and listen in the way that is most deeply effective. Or to say the phrase that is most deeply effective. When I look at it, it's this repressed power drive, this unashamed. I want. Or even. Maybe my language is not even what you would choose. I take. I. That is out there and I'm good with that and I have no issue. And then I look and we. I know you don't want to go into it, but I look at the left or the Democrats. It's. There's this hidden power drive, you know, that is not claimed in the same way. Interesting.

Yeah. I've working with CEOs a lot really powerful CEOs. What I notice is if they fully. I would give this one as one of the. One of the practices that I know are like I want power and this is power and da da, da, da. They are incredibly dangerous people. If they are fully. I don't want power. I'm not the most powerful. They are incredibly dangerous.

That was me. That was me. Not that I was.

Works really well quickly and it works well because when people taste it, they want to keep doing it. So part of a practice is picking a practice that you actually will keep doing. Or it's. And. And this practice has a lifespan. Like most of the things that I would. I would suggest most of the things would have a lifespan and it might be days, but yeah. It is to. It is like to acknowledge the power that you have to not run away from your narcissism to. And to. To love all of that as well. Both disintegrates it. And also just on an actionable level makes you far safer. And it's the rejection of both or the grasping of both that makes you dangerous. And if you have a lot of power. Yeah.

Did you anything that comes up for you around that?

Yeah. So I. You know, I. I love Joe's answer and I'm going to give a completely different one.

Cool.

So, so I think, you know, if we go back to like the mechanism of, okay, there's the sleazy charisma, there's the authentic charisma. I think what a lot of people will kind of potentially jump to is like, oh, they have this lazy charisma.

10, 20 years, but it has a lifespan.

And I think this is where the model.

Yeah, yeah, that's not true.

It's not true. I agree. So, and that's like their own judgment. Right?

So, but what I notice a great way is that so typically we have a negative self talker, repetitive voice in the head. According to I guess the Mayo clinic, it's like 50 to 60,000 thoughts a day or something like that. Like that. Most of them repetitive. And people at some point, I think.

What they really speak to is how much of a dyad charisma is. So why are they the ones that are popular? There's a thousand people who are saying a thousand things. They're the ones who have floated to the top. For someone to be charismatic in that way, they must have an audience. So if you want to understand why they are charismatic, you must look to the audience because they're the ones that notice them.

And then at some point they want to get rid of them. But the more they resist, the more it persists and so it doesn't actually change. So a very cool practice that starts emptying you out really quickly is every day or every three days, pick a way you want to react to that voice in the head that you've never watching them.

So here is the harsh truth that I think not many people are willing to accept reacted that way before.

So typically though, what happens is the voice says something and are.

So if you're a man in the world today and something doesn't go your way, no one is there to help you. So speaking of Democrats, I'm not saying this is right or wrong, I'm just making an observation. So if you look at the, during the presidential election, if you look at the Democratic website for the, the people they support and the mission they support, they support minorities, they support people of different sexual things.

Orientation response is either, yeah, yeah, you're right, that's the charismatic part of you that you're following, or it's sometimes, yeah, you're right.

But patience immigrants, like, I'm not saying that's right or wrong. And then at the very end they say women, they literally listed a bunch of people, chose a Gender and didn't do it.

Yeah, I'm gonna. I'm still gonna eat that chocolate cake. Right? Those are one of the reactions that we have. But you could have literally an infinite kind.

I was just thinking you could, like, clap and have a ton of.

Not pick men intentionally, right? So. So if you're a man today and you struggle, the most common thing you hear is you're privileged. You don't have a right to.

You could have, like.

Like, it's a birthday party, a surprise party.

You could. Yes, you could. You could say. You could say a complaint.

Especially if you're. Oh, my God, like, y' all are the worst. Y' all are white men. At least I'm a minor. My skin is brown. Right. I'm part of the oppressed. And so what? Literally, like, you have people, but, like, men have the highest suicide rates, and they're.

You could say, wow, I could really use you to be a better boss. Or you could say, no. Or you could say, I see how scared you are, and I'm right here with you.

Climbing. You know, I love it. I had a patient. I used to work a lot with people in finance, and I had a patient who had a kid, and she wanted to go back into investment banking.

You can have literally a hundred different responses.

What I'm noticing in me is that some of those felt like, oh, I want that one, and some of them didn't. So even in just listening to those options, I was like, well, I like that last one the best.

And the bank has a program for mothers who have left to raise their kids.

Because, like.

I see. And so. But my recommendation is experiment for.

It's like, women. We as a society should support women who make choices. And if they make choices and they want to make career changes or if they're having difficulty, we should have, like, equality of, like, board representation between men and women. We should help women get into college. We should have women only scholarships. And I'm not saying these things are bad. I'm just saying this is wild.

Just get to know what happens to that internal self talk that we consider.

To be us is the way society is right now. There are plenty of women only scholarships, Very few male only.

What happens when you react to it differently? And I find just the experimentation will help you unfold the thing very, very quickly, a lot quicker than.

Than scholarships. But 60% of people in college are women. So if you look at the experience of men, they don't get help from anybody. If a man has.

For me, I notice people unfold it a lot quicker than some early stages of meditation even. But it's really important. The critical point is you're not trying to get rid of it. And the critical point is that it's.

An experiment, difficulty with their emotions. No woman wants to take responsibility. And fair enough, they say it's not my job to baby this man. That's the work that I do. To a certain degree you do. To a certain degree you do. And I think it's in that order. I think maybe I have the biggest babies, but who knows, right? And so this is literally the experience of men. You can look at all kinds of metrics. I just look at suicide. And a few years ago I asked myself a question.

You're learning about it, you're in wonder about it. And if you can do that with the internal self talk, it is an incredibly effective tool. And I'm hoping that.

What if men have it so easy, why are they killing themselves at four times the rate of women? Why do these men.

You're about to tell me is that there's a Sanskrit word for this practice, but I haven't seen any other. I haven't seen it.

So once again, Joe, I'm impressed by. So I could give you an hour long lecture about why that's a great practice. But, but, but. And I've had men in my office who are privileged, six foot four rich white men who want to kill themselves, you know, like have fantasies of tying a noose around their neck, tying the other part of the noose to a tree, getting in a car and slamming on the gas pedal. So like, what is going on? Like, like are they privileged? Yes. And there's more to the story. Do they have advantages? Yes, and there's more to the story, but we live in a society that does not accept that. So the weird thing is everyone thinks that Andrew Tate is super toxic. The two things that I would say is, first is if that practice is hard for you, I'll give you guys an introductory practice because I. I love it. I can't top that.

Yeah.

All I can do is give you. He's the most validating voice. He's the most immune on ramp onto that. If that's hard. And that is brush with your non dominant hand. So what. What I strongly recommend people do.

Totally. That would still work.

Right. So it's so emotionally validating for voice that I've heard talking to men.

Donald Trump, same thing for his audience.

Yeah, absolutely. Right. So everyone says, your audience, my audience, not sure about you. Right. So like our Audience Charlie is. I mean, this isn't true really, but like, it's losers, right? There are a lot of quote unquote losers in our audience. So what we realize is there are a lot of young professionals. The average age in our audience is now like 32. It's like 30 to 35% women. So I'm sort of making a hard with the cognitions that we have. There's a whole characterization that's not really accurate. But there are a lot of people. Do I. It's so weird. So sometimes I'll do a lecture like that is like deeds out there who are struggling feel like losers trying to spirituality. And it clicks for people. So I did this lecture on vasanas, which are basically repetitive mental habits. Fix being a loser. And what does the world tell them? The world tells them you've got a bunch of advantages. You're fine. You should. And if so, great lecture. That really like popped. And. And so I'd say that the problem with those is we're so engaged with them. Right. It's so challenging. You're not fine. You should be fine because you're a privileged man. There's one person who tells them they are shit, and that person is Andrew Tate. Andrew Tate says you are shit. Let me help you from beta. You're a piece of. I'm gonna validate.

There's a validation and a reality pacing.

Like, you're right.

Yeah.

The world is unfair. There are 1% of men who get everything and 99% you are a fucking loser. Here's how to change. And I. I know why Joe recommends this. Because if you learn it from Joe, he's gonna teach it in a way where you can do it that you can't do on your own. Like, I get that. Right. So you give them a certain amount.

Of diction versus people are like, that's not true. Love yourself. Exactly, exactly.

The other thing about their charisma is in both of the cases that you.

Mentioned, our initiation that allows them to do it, but it's really hard because those repetitive thoughts are oftentimes the ones that are the hardest to resist. It's the hardest to do something new. So I just start with a little a touch of neuroplasticity and practice. The skill of responding to things in.

Different ways is that they. They're really not self conscious.

Yeah, deeply.

Yeah. Right. They're really not self conscious. Like one of them hugged a flag, you know, like, that's like performance art. Lack of self consciousness. That's like an amazing lack of self consciousness. And I think that all of us want that. All of us want that lack of self consciousness on, on top of.

And the easiest way to do that, brush with your non dominant hand. Right. You can only do it for a couple of days. Joe.

We might not want it in that particular way, but we all want that on some level. It's an interesting thing because I was looking at.

We'll give you something that'll work for 20 years. Do mine for like three days.

Yeah.

Then try Joe's if you're having trouble. But you can go straight to Joe's. Go straight to Joe's.

Great.

That's a really great. Yeah, yeah.

I love all of this.

Who won the election over the like since Jimmy Carter. And I was just watching different difference of them speaking. I was like, wow. It's kind of like almost the person who has less self consciousness wins. It's pretty. It's a. It's a really good indicator.

Okay.

And part of the reason that I didn't start down this path is because when I looked out into the world and it wasn't the same guys at.

The time, the less self conscious, the more they're likely to win.

When I look at a Donald Trump or an Andrew Tate, I do not imagine that they are doing this sort of a thing.

And yet they don't have to be smart, they don't have to even be articulate. It's just like a lack of I'm going to be me.

Which is less internal division, correct?

It is greater sense of less internal division.

Right. In that particular aspect, yes. Yes. Right. Because like I do not think that they go home and are non divided.

Internally, but they are incredibly influential, powerful people. Seem to.

Yeah, I could be.

I think they both have a vision. Yes, right. And I think they're both articulate. Like, I mean people will say like Trump stumbles around with his words and stuff like that, but he's able to.

Follow them like them, trust them. Polarizing figures for sure. What is going on? Like if this, if this takes you to the essence of charisma, what is going on with these seemingly charismatic individuals that are. That as far as I can tell, have not followed a path that is at all like speak.

So what I mean, he'll say all kinds of things, but there are a couple of statements that will really resonate with the dyad. And then the other really interesting like metaphoric thing here is we've been talking about, you know, if there's something bad and you try to make it go away, it just comes back stronger.

That's right.

And these two people have one really interesting thing. The harder people try to take them down, the stronger they become. Right. And so there's something going on here where that's just not the energy. They thrive off of it. Right.

Because what it does these ones is that a pseudo charisma. Is there something else?

Is it galvanizes their supporters. It creates more of an us versus them kind of mentality. You know. And I think. I know. I mean so we talked with Sneako a while ago.

Else going on there is it. What. How do you understand it?

What I noticed is this is a really challenging topic because it's. So we're using two people and I.

I don't know if it was you or someone on your. On your channel.

I did the video.

Yeah. And. And so I think like people will sometimes blame us for talking to platform or very divisive.

Sure.

So to some degree forming toxic dudes. My conversations with like Sneako and Aiden Ross and some of these like toxic people are some of my most favorite conversations. I know this is going to get me a lot of flack but I think there's like they're good dudes I.

In your office who doesn't appear to do this or something. I think the way I think your handling of it is exactly the anti.

So there's a couple things that I.

Would say is that and is so important and is so inclusive and does not leave anyone behind.

I love watching those comedy without judgment on developmental scale or anything like that.

Right. So. So that. That like oh, like you shouldn't talk to bad people then like what do you. And I'm not. I'm not saying you shouldn't talk. Some people say you shouldn't talk to bad people. And then I'm like well then what should you do? Right. And then people will say you should cancel them. You should destroy them. And like that's fine. I'm not.

My daughters are three and a half years apart.

Saying that that's wrong. It's not my place to say. Like if you want to annihilate whatever, go for it. That's not what I know how to do.

What I notice is that's who kids adore is like they listen to.

That's not my gift to the world. That's not the methodology.

They're kids that are just slightly older.

Than more than G. That I've seen works. And so I think these are people that we should be. I completely agree with what Joe is saying about These people.

My whole life I have been following, reluctantly, questioning the authorities that are just.

People serve a karmic purpose of awakening. If you really have problems with these people, look within yourself first, right.

And have a little more understanding than.

I have at this moment and see what's your issue. What are you really angry about? How can you not understand? Right? So then you're. You're like. Like, I don't understand how people. Like, even within my family, like.

And then I'm. I'm following that. So I think that there's a natural. One part is. I think there's a natural piece to that.

There's a huge generational divide between, like, Democrats and Republicans, and we're, like, all, like, in the same general household. But. And people, like.

The other thing that's interesting is that people really want to buy the bridge. You know, they really want to buy. We all really want to buy the bridge until we don't. So there's something natural in us, in the evolutionary path to.

I don't understand. And people say that reflexively, right? Like, I don't understand how someone could follow Andrew Tate or vote for Donald Trump. Then the first fucking thing you should do is understand. Don't judge.

You have somebody who has the answer.

Try to really figure out, because clearly they are doing something that matters a lot to a lot of people.

And if you ever have somebody who feels assured, who feels conviction, and we want that. If you look at or want to.

Change this dynamic, good diagnosis precedes good treatment. It starts with understanding, then you can figure out what to do. Trying to take them down may work, may not work. I have no idea, like, whether it's.

Our rock stars or our politicians, it's like there's something in us that wants to feel safe. And if we follow somebody who looks.

But I think that there's something really, like, powerful going on. And I think that, like, kind of like what Joe is saying. I know it sounds kind of weird, but, like, whether this is good or bad depends on what we do with it.

Yeah. It's like they're assured and. And in their minds, they are. I mean, empathetically, we. They are convicted. I think that it's an interesting. It's an interesting thought process, right? If.

Yeah, there's a. We're, like, tuning in to, like, oh, they. They believe this through and through.

They do. Yeah. You're. If you are in a place that is harmful, that is a. Like. And. And if they don't, the third time they say it, they will. And so. So there's like this part about to you. And you are seeking help. You're typically not seeking judgment. You're not seeking egoic judgment. We know inherently that if somebody can show up with us as a human being and be with us as a human being, that that's. That it's like, oh, cool, there's some conviction that I Now I don't have to actually take responsibility for myself. Then I think there's something really, that's another part that makes it that we. That's probably one of the most effective ways for us to heal. And so some of it is this very natural thing that we want. I think the other piece and the thought process that I love around this is imagine that you go onto an island and you have all the food and water that you could ever use in this island, and you're there with 12 people. And those 12 people all happen to be saints. And saints, they draw boundaries, they take occurring. Is that as a society, like we talked about, like, as a society, we want homeostasis. We want balance as well. And so what I notice is that when any side gets righteous, if there's no naysayer in the room, eventually the naysayer comes up. If any side gets righteous, there's the other part of it. Yeah. And so care of themselves, but they unconditionally love you. They love you unconditionally. They don't accept everything you do, but they unconditionally love you. And now imagine you're stuck on that island for a decade. Like, what happens? Who are you when you walk off that island? So we, like, know this, that we.

Yeah, we don't need anyone to coach us or train us. We just.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We just need this thing. And yet when we see something out in the world that we don't like. But to me, the more. The more the very last thing we think to do is behave like a saint. Yeah. Beautiful.

Would love to continue. And I want to get you fed. So thank you both for sitting down with me today.

No food for you.

No soup for you. Amazing chatting with both of you guys today.

Yeah.

It was an absolute privilege.

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Great question. The question that is more productive, the more productive question is when you're faced with somebody like that, how can they be an avenue to your freedom, to your unwinding? And can you see their point of view? Can you understand the value that they provide? Can you not see their point? Can you see outside of their point of view? Can you not see the. Can you use them as a way to dissolve your ego. Assuming there's an ego, but. Right. Can you use that person as a way to dissolve. And it was funny. You said earlier this great thought of there's a joke in your community about being a guru. And if anybody calls me a guru oftentimes, what I'll say is, yeah, I'm just like a guru. I'm just the next iteration where.