Megan Jo Wilson - No More Playing Small

Welcome to this conversation that we are recording right now live in Facebook group for Fulfilled Working Moms. And this is one of these conversations where I bring in special guests, experts on various areas. And you see I have Megan Jo next to me and I'll give you an introduction of her shortly. But let me just first introduce myself. If this is your first time watching in the group or maybe a recording outside the group. I am your host, Charlotte Freeborg, and I am the coach for moms who are looking to enhance their career without taking away the time for family, friends, and other juicy things in life. I support moms in making their own money in a way that will not burn them out but bring them fulfillment in life. So I am super excited to have Megan Jo Wilson here next to me because she's a living example, proof of doing this like we teach it— perfectly imperfect, showing up. And I want to— I have her official bio here and I, I will share that because I think it really tells a lot about who she is, what she has done and what she's doing to, to make as a foundation for this conversation, it will make sense that she's the real deal. In 2004, Megan Jo Wilson completed her first weekend of coach training and knew that coaching would be her lifelong work. Since then, she has brought coaching and coach training into hospitals, hair salons, and boardrooms. She is now a coach trainer at the Co-Active Training Institute, where she took her first class, and for the last 5 years has been coaching women to build profitable— talk about my Danish— profitable businesses through her experiential experiential courses, Rockstar Camp, which I went through, and No More Playing Small. She knows that confidence can be learned and teaches it by bringing women together to learn the how of business and play big in sisterhood. He is author of best-selling business books, Who the Am I to be a coach?

And no, I don't want to hear you swear.

It may be beeped out on YouTube. We'll figure that out. I don't know what they say to it. But she's also— this past year she's been collaborating with Marianne Williamson, where we actually colleagues in, and Regina Thomas, our aka Mama Gina, and is now opening doors to her next Sisterhood of No More Playing Small this summer 2022. Let's welcome Megan Jo Wilson.

Thank you, Queen.

Thanks for being here.

I'm so happy to be here. It's so funny too, even though I can't see and feel everybody in the group, I'm like, oh, we're all moms, I'm safe. It feels like a safe space, which is just interesting. So Thanks for having moms and dads and women in the group.

I like to— I like that you named that, and I think that will bring me to one of the questions that I wanted to talk to you about, because I want to be real about this. Yeah, I know you, you right now, you have your daughter home, she's being homeschooled. Um, so often when we see business on social media, successful people it's all the glitter and success and do this and that, but there's also the behind the facade, right? Like in a store, when you walk into a store, they have that back room. It's not always looking as pretty as the store where everything is set up nicely. I'm sure you have some words to say to that.

I do. I, I think that anyone who runs a business, especially as an entrepreneur, and also parents at the same time is like superhuman, worthy of trophies, celebrations, and parades. Uh, my daughter is 9 and I have 2 stepsons who are 10 and 13. And I just love that we're talking today because like, welcome into the back room of my store. Let's see, this morning I had to get up extra early because the wire of her braces that she got tightened yesterday popped out. So we had to go back at 8 and then we had to get her to her outdoor school program, but we also carpooled to get Liam. So we had to coordinate with Liam. And then I was also texting with my friend Angela and then thinking about meeting with you. And I had a meeting with my business partner Libby. And so Uh, we carpooled and we met and I got her there and then I sent a text and then I raced back while listening to some Abraham Hicks podcast and then I pulled in and then I took a shower and then I did dance break and then I said a prayer and here I am.

Well, bravo!

Thank you.

And that's what we say, right? Support each other.

Yeah, yeah. And, um, I'm kind of— I don't know, when I, when I hear people without kids say I don't have time, I just sort of chuckle. I have some judgment around it, I'll admit. Like, you don't know what it's like to have no time, because if you had children, you would experience that on a whole new level.

Yeah, no, that's true. That's true. I think there's also a different kind of compassion and understanding where there are things we don't have to say when we talk to other moms. Where I say, I'm late.

Okay, I get it. Right.

It's like coming from different countries, the States, there are things we don't have to explain so much because we know that it's— so I think this is important to talk about because there are also things we must get gone. And I know what we have talked a lot about is like, when are we ready? So, and, and like, what, when, when do we take that leap? I mean, I know you help women be successful in business, right? So one thing is why women, we can come back to that, but also when do we know we are ready? When have we figured it all out so we know then when Now, if someone listens to this and say, but I really want to have my own business, but how do I deal with— if I have a morning like that, how am I going to deal with that? So when do we know we are ready?

Yeah, we are pointing to something that's so true, I assume, for a lot of people in this group and for anyone who desires to run their own business or have fulfilling work, especially as a parent. One of the primary motivators is I want to own my own time. Yeah, I want to own my own schedule. I don't want to be in a system that dictates whether or not I can go to my kids' play baseball game, um, you know, and that was and continues to be a huge motivating force for me. I want to own my time so that I can be available as a mom and daughter and wife. And the great irony is that it takes, uh, for me, I'll say it took, and in my experience, it takes some practice. It's like a skill to learn because when you're an entrepreneur doing your own business, you could in theory be on all day, every day. There's always something to do. Yeah. And especially in the beginning when you're like, am I ready? And then of course you're like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna launch this business. I've got my website, I've got my posts, and I've heard this so many times with women, and my daughter's graduating this month, so I can't do it this month.

Yeah.

And my son broke his leg this month, so I can't do it this month. Yeah. And my, you know, my, my responsibility as a mom is such a priority, and there's this sort of idea that it's impossible to do both at the same time. And I admit it, it can be challenging, but I do think it's something that we can learn. And with practice and, and intention and conscious choice, it's actually incredibly liberating. And I think an amazing model for any child of any age to see. But I love that my daughter sees me running my own business and working and being successful and owning my own time, and then seeing that I know how to put the phone down, the computer down, and be present with her.

Yeah, I think it's—

when am I ready? It's like, it's never gonna be a good or perfect time. To start. That's the other big myth, right? I'll be ready as soon as my child graduates, as soon as my child goes into school, as soon as they get a job. Yeah. So it's sort of like becoming, you know, this is the core of like all the work we do, you and I, with coaching. It's like being the mom, the parent who knows how to respond to those things that are inevitable. Yeah, and saying that, that will not ever undermine my mission or my business, and I won't let my business undermine my priority as a mom. Yeah, I just won't. I'm gonna be the woman that does both.

But I think for many it's a moment in life also where we just know, like, we make a decision also. I, I don't know, I'm sure you have that. Well, I'm guessing that you have. I remember I worked in a store, furniture store, and I really liked it and enjoyed it and was good at it, like decorating, talking to customers and all that, and selling. And I was the only woman there. It was really fun. But there was a moment where I felt someone else was in control of my time, and I, and I knew what kind of mom I was, so just talking to what you just mentioned, who I wanted to be because of my background, and I could just see there was a moment where I just could see, wow, this is not going to happen if I continue this. And that was the moment where I started to make decisions, prepare myself to shift into something else. Have you had a similar experience where I said, nope, this is not going to work, I'm going to do something different for me.

Yeah, first of all, so well bragged. Thank you. And I have the pleasure and honor of being close enough to your life that I see and hear and watch, um, the freedom that that has given you, that choice. It's a very, it's a very brave choice. I mean, not everybody does it, right? If it was easy, everyone would just be an entrepreneur and running their own business and Yeah, there have been a lot of points of that along the way. I, as you read in my bio, I started my Coach training 18 years ago, and so I, for the first 10 years, didn't have a child. First 9 years. Okay. And then 9 years ago, had a baby. And at that time, I was actually coaching in a hospital system here in Maine, um, which is fabulous because I got like great health insurance. And, you know, part of why I worked there, I like knew everyone at the hospital. Um, and, you know, I love what Anne Lamott says, God is such a show-off. I was just thinking of that this morning. God is such a show-off. Uh, I was in the middle of writing my first book, Who the Fuck Am I to Be a Coach, and working part-time at the hospital, and I really wasn't sure which path. I knew I was gonna have to choose soon because both were running. And my boss, who I loved, a woman named Deb who let me do whatever I want, which is why I loved her because she trusted me and knew I would do great work, said, I'm actually going to resign, um, because I can't tolerate my boss anymore. I will— I'm happy to groom you to take my position. As the head of learning and development in this big system. And I said, wow, Deb, well, you know what, if you're going, I'm going. If I can't work for you, then I really don't want to be here. And what perfect timing, um, to force me to make that choice. And so that, at that point, with a very young baby and teaching at the coaching organization and publishing my book, which I was just looking at pictures of I, yeah, I went all in and really spent a lot of time and energy studying the art and science of marketing and sales and all the things you've studied as well, which no one had ever taught me before.

Yeah, and being— and I think that's also one of the things when we have some kind of structure also to navigate within, that also helps a lot. And make a commitment to that.

It did for me. It did for me. And it also boosted my confidence. One of the things that women— okay, just a point, can we go to like why I work with women only?

Yeah, let's do that.

Go! Why I work primarily with women, and I love men, I love working with men. I've worked with, you know, hundreds and hundreds of men. They're just amazing and brilliant and valuable. Um, women are conditioned in a particular way, whether they know it or not. Yeah, conditioned in a particular way to, um, just by default operate from self-doubt. And when things aren't working, to ask, what's wrong with me? Yeah, what's wrong with me? I must be doing something wrong because it's not working. And I should be confident. Like there's this weird, it's also sort of the shadow side of feminism. I think we feel like we should be confident all the time. And first of all, that's not like normal. It's not natural. And especially when we're in a, in an area of our lives where we've never done the thing before. Yeah. So what made me think of it was when I learned the structure and had the support around marketing, sales, who am I talking to, how do I literally create revenue with this thing that I love so much that I've been doing for so long? My confidence expanded because I had filled a knowledge gap. Yeah. It wasn't my fault. Yeah, it wasn't my fault that I didn't know how to market or sell.

And I just want— for anybody, I just want to name it because for anyone watching, we both have, we both have been— I am still a client of Dr. Angela Lauria where we wrote our books, and she has that business model that we kind of are talking about now. So I just want to make that clear for anybody who doesn't know.

Yeah, yeah. And she was in this group, right?

Yes, she's in the group as well. Yeah, she was in here a few weeks ago.

Yeah, in her work, and we wouldn't be where we are without the structure. And that's the same structure and model that Shuana, you know, you and I give to women in our own way. Yeah. So I think that, yeah, just tying it to confidence, you know, it can be learned. Yeah. And it's a practice. It's a practice of like filling the knowledge gaps and also deconditioning from our literal grooming to be, uh, in a space of like, I don't know.

Yeah, and talk about what is confidence really. It's all like a perception. It's some things we've made up, like by looking at outside instead of— I know this is something I enjoy so much with you. I noticed, I think it was this week or last week, you had a post with you in shorts and you talked about I was like, yeah, can we have more of that? I actually went to dance lesson yesterday night and there was a woman showing up in shorts and not young legs any longer. And I went to her and I told her, I'm so happy to see you wear shorts.

Yes, I love you.

Extraordinary. We need— we could— it's that taking that perfection out and just talk about how, like you just shared so beautifully, how your morning was. Yeah, we think we have to figure it all out, right?

Right. And then I'll be confident.

And then I'll be confident.

Yeah, it's like the opposite. And, and it is an internal game for sure.

Yeah.

And it's also something you earn through doing and practice. Yeah. The metaphor I often use as a musician is if I gave you a guitar, Charlotte, and said you're gonna be on stage tonight playing a solo with a professional band. Yeah, all you have to do is fake it till you make it. Just pretend you're confident and the solo will be great. Yeah, no, no, no, like, no, I can't. Right, you shouldn't be confident about playing a guitar solo because you haven't done it, you haven't practiced, you haven't played at it open mic. You haven't sat in your living room and done the scales. You have, like, so there's a way also that you earn it, and then you don't beat yourself up for not being, you know, amazing at it yet. That's so good. But you're like willing to learn, you're willing to earn it, you're willing to suck at it for a while. Yeah, yeah.

It's, and that, and also see, look more at what skills we do have that we can share.

Yes, right. Yeah. Yes. And that— and then so it's real, like, yeah, yeah, right. Because the other thing that can happen is with women in particular— and again, I've worked with both men and women in business building— with women in particular, even when they've practiced, like, even when they do the scales and could play the solo on stage Yeah, they have some like success amnesia. They have, I don't know what I'm doing, who the fuck am I to do this, so-and-so is better at it. Yeah. And then so it's like that is where the conditioning and the internal stuff comes in. Like, I know I can do this, but in the moments around doing it, I start to question myself. Yes, especially if I'm in isolation. Especially if I don't have community. Yeah. Can I do this? Am I— yeah, why am I doing this? Yeah.

So it's just so good. And I know this is one of the things you teach, how to really lean on to each other. And you are so beautifully creating these sisterhoods where people can feel they belong and support each other, so we never feel like alone. I want to— I really like the way you spoke to this. I do. I just want to share to everybody because I have been a client of you as well. I didn't say that before. And the moment when I decided to work with you was before COVID when you still had your rockstar.

I know.

And I wasn't— so I was a newer student with Angela. You were already like, you had you taken off. And you talked about this Rockstar Camp where you actually pay to get on a real stage to sing in front of a real audience. And I remember when you talk about that and put that offer out, I felt like— first of all, I just knew, not going into it, I knew that was something I had to do. But I, I literally, I literally, literally felt I was going to die. But there was something where we had built a relationship. I felt like that trust to lean onto you. So I knew you would not have me fail on stage.

Yeah.

That COVID happened. We didn't do it that way. We did some other fun things.

Yeah.

But that's what you get when you find a coach, when you find a sister who, people who are there that strong. I usually you say the fence around. You plant a seed and you, while you're growing, you have a strong fence so no one come and— well, because shit, things happens.

But I wanna—

I— and it's in all decisions like that fear. When shall I start my business? Or when shall I quit my job? That's that fear coming up, right? Do you have anything you want to say to that?

Yeah, I mean, I love that metaphor. Um, part of what we do as coaches, and part of what, what I do in particular, as you just named, is, um, acknowledging the fear. Like, the fear is not wrong, you know. You and I have been studying A Course in Miracles, so ego speaks first and loudest. Of course, yeah, this is part of being a spiritual being on earth in a skin suit, and ego speaks first and loudest, particularly when we're about to do something we've never done before.

Yeah.

Okay, so if you haven't— if you're about to do something that you've never done before, or that goes against social contracts or tribal contracts, your brain is wired beautifully to protect you from doing that because it doesn't want you to leave the tribe and die. Yeah. So it does send literal chemical messages that are saying, this could end your life, this could kill you. Even when you get dry mouth or sweaty armpits, if you're speaking or doing like a Facebook Live, that's because your digestion is shutting down in preparation for attack. So adrenaline goes up, sweat rings, dry mouth, shaky hands, because your body thinks it's going to be attacked. Yeah. For women, this is a heightened experience because we actually live in a world that attacks us, that annihilates us, that defiles us, that doesn't understand us.

Just look at what happened last week, right? Taking away our right to— yeah. Okay. We're not, we can talk about that or not, but—

Again, whether we know it or not, and there's individual trauma and then there's collective, 5,000 years of it that have us, ah, ugh, under threat. So when we have an experience or community or sisterhood, now Rockstar Camp is a beautiful example of that because it's an embodied experience. You're not just thinking about doing it, you're doing it. And so you're on stage and it's literally, or you're doing a Facebook Live or a Facebook group live or a post or your speak or whatever your visibility thing is.

Yeah.

It's rewiring the chemistry of your body and your neurology, especially here's the essential part when it ends that you have a positive reinforcing experience so that when it ends, your ego doesn't rip you apart. You ever done that, y'all? Like, you do the live, you do the post, you post it, and then your ego goes, how did I do that? That was so bad. That was so dumb. They're not gonna like it. They didn't like it. My shirt was crooked. It will just tear you apart. If you have a community, a fence that catches you and says, that was 'Amazing! You are so brilliant! That was so brave! That was perfect! I loved when you did this! I loved when you did that!' Then your body rewires to say, 'Oh, it's safe to be visible.' Yeah, it's safe to be visible. And not only will I not die, I will be held. And then I can see the impact that it has It's in the world, beautiful, which is what we all want.

We want to have impact and we create new neural pathways that way by just continuing. It's not just one time, we continue to do it, continue to do it, continue to do it so we can raise— I often talk about this invisible glass ceiling, like, hope, cling.

That was a glass ceiling, we broke it, we crushed it, another layer shattered. Oh, yeah. There. Yeah. And real talk too, Charlotte, because real talk for both of us and anyone who's watching. Are you, like, nervous right now doing this? Yeah, yeah, a little bit.

Yeah, a little bit. Yeah. Not as I used to be.

I mean, that's my point. Yeah, yeah. Like, I'm a little nervous. Like, so am I, right? It's like I can feel my heart race a little. It's a little like I'm on stage.

Yeah, I mean, I can, I can literally say that I, just to give a specific example, like I remember when I did my first interviews, I was, my brain was busy. What if I, what if I run out of questions? What if I, like, that was my ego, right? Now I learned to just be with you. And I know, we know, I mean, I invite people in here I love and adore, trust, and I know they're experts. They have, they are living what they are talking. Um, so it's a, it's a, it's just a cozy conversation, which I also call it.

Right. And you got to that place by doing it. Yeah. You learned that the questions will come by doing it. Even if I promised you as your coach, Charlotte, the questions will come, you wouldn't have gotten it in your body unless you interviewed someone and interviewed someone and Definitely not.

Definitely not. So that's what we talked about earlier. The confidence comes from doing. It's not— it's not— it doesn't come from sit and wait and meditate and meditate. Yes, right. Like, but, but let me just say, because there are these bushwhacks, there are— it's not perfect. Last week I was in a group where I was attacked because I did something different. It was very uncomfortable. It's cleaned up. I had a conversation with the leader in the group after, so we cleaned it up. It's beautiful. We both learned. I'm grateful today that it happened because I know it prepared me for a bigger life. I want to raise my voice more than I do now, and I know it's inevitable that people will not like what we do. So what I wanted to talk about, and then I see we already spoke 30 minutes, but I really want to get this in because I know you're so big on that. What is your— there will be these slams where we get things happen that we didn't expect. We were praying, we can put all the intentions, and things are just not like what— I know you have a ton of tools, but what is your favorite thing to do when that happens and you just feel like climbing back into the— under the blanket, or—

I love this question. I'm just taking a minute to like think about it because I mean, my first response is, as you said, know that it's inevitable. Yeah. To be a leader, and we're all leaders, we are all leaders, I believe, in our own way. As you expand your impact and as you learn and make mistakes, you're going to make mistakes. Yeah. You know, I think Brené Brown is like one of the greatest teachers about this, that leadership is fucking hard. And what you said is so powerful because Even when— and you've seen me through many difficult leadership moments. Yeah. Um, and you've also seen that when they happen, I don't pretend they're not happening. Yeah. Because I know that if I take responsibility for my impact, Yeah, which is often unintended, right? You didn't intend— I don't even know what happened. Whoops, my internet did a weird thing. Am I here?

You are here.

Yeah, you didn't intend to go into that group and do something that pissed people off. You intended to go in and like be inspiring and be okay. So then it's like, fuck, that didn't—

okay.

And then you take responsibility and you've stay as you did, you stay engaged, you stay, you listen, you get curious, you say yes to the experience. Like, oh, I hate this experience, but yes, yes, yes, it's gonna grow me. I learned something that I will never forget. And we always learn more through the mistakes than the successes, right? Yeah, you learned so much. I don't— again, I don't even know what happened, but I know you learned so much. Yeah. So you said yes to it, and then actually, in almost every case in my experience, the group gets closer and stronger. Yeah. If you're willing to take responsibility and name it and stay in and clean it up. You know, a lot of leadership in business, it's just like cleaning up mistakes.

Yeah. No, it is, but it's— and it's, um Parenthood.

Parenthood.

In this case, yeah, I actually think the leader handled it beautifully and she took fully responsibility for what happened. So it wasn't really— it was just that a moment where, where we— others assumed I did something different, and which is again so important to— and we can do that with ourselves— not assume things will be open to Feel it all. And you, you really— I have seen you many times. You model this so beautifully. I saw it in the Rockstar Camp we had. I see it in the Marianne Williamson community where we both work. You are a true leader. I mean, and I know also you are aware of your Human Design. I saw you shared a post. So for people who are not following Megan Jo Wilson now, go and do that. It's real. It's— you're so open and real. And I love what you shared about— because that's true— you are projector and how you really are born to do this.

You're born to do this in my way, just like you were born in your way, right?

Yeah, this is beautiful. Oh, thank you so much. We could talk a lot, lot more.

We could. I love it.

I do know that you are going this summer, as I shared in the beginning, you are going to— and you are actually, I see that you are signing up women who want to get into your sisterhood, uh, the next sisterhood version 2 or whatever you call it, I think, of No More Playing Small. It's happening this summer 2022, and we will share— I want you to share where they can go to learn more about that. And, and we will also in the Facebook group share the link right when the Recording is uploaded, we will share it, and Megan Jo is in the group, so please continue the conversation. But I do have one final question before we get to that juicy stuff, and that is one I ask everybody, and that is, what is your definition of fulfillment?

Oh, I love this question. Fulfillment to me is very different than happiness. Yes, or easy. To me, it's aliveness, awakeness, alignment. Alignment. It's alignment with my values. It's alignment with my purpose, you know. And when I am, there is a sense of joy and aliveness. Aliveness is what I think of. And I love— I love that word so much. Especially in the context of business and parenting. Yeah, because parenting, for me, there's no more difficult, challenging, frustrating, exhausting journey that I've been on, and nothing that's more deeply fulfilling. So it's a— it's aliveness.

Aliveness.

I love that. I like that. Yeah, aliveness and alignment, those are the two words I would say.

Yeah, everyone has different answers. Yeah, and I love every answer.

Yeah, yeah. And I, yeah, I just want to acknowledge you for, for the way that you're leading and taking a stand that that's possible for women and for moms. It is. You want that fulfilling, that's alive, that's aligned, that's satisfying, that's fun, that's easy, that's— yeah, contributes to the world. So thank you.

Let's stop— any women listening to this, you don't have to burn out in a job that's not fitting you. So let's just find your guide. Okay, thank you so much.

Thank you, Queen.

So yeah, I love you too. So where, where can those who are listening and want to learn more from you, curious to know more about what this is about, where can they go and, and find more information?

I think what, um, the link we're going to share is for my book, which is called No More Playing Small, which, um, I— it— you can get it for free, download it, and you'll just see, you know, my philosophy, my approach, the impact of it. And the best way really is to send me a note on Facebook. Yeah, you know, like, follow me on Facebook. We're here on Facebook. We're in this group. I'm in this group. Yeah, send me a note, um, and say like, I'm curious, you know, I'm an entrepreneur, I'm a mom, I'm a woman, I recognize that like it's time for me to play bigger, to share my voice, to put myself out there and to do it in community. Um, I'd love to hear your story. And we start in June, so just a heads up. Um, it's soon, it's soon, and it's about half full. I'd love to, I'd love to meet anyone in your group. And I know some people in here already. Hey, Please.

Yeah, you do. Well, thank you, thank you, thank you.

I feel like we can talk a lot more, but let's honor the time.

Everybody in here are busy, but we do make— we can make time for the important things. So I really appreciate that we finally got to have this conversation.

I know, I'm so grateful. It was such a nice, like, ah, in the middle of the day.

Yeah, beautiful. So thank you everybody for watching, whether you were with us here live or you are watching the recording, please leave us some comments, what you took away from this conversation. Ask questions, be engaged. Let's help each other go higher, break the glass ceilings, and create a beautiful world. Thank you, Megan Jo.

Thank you, sister.

I will see you later today.

Yes, you will. Lots of love, everyone.

Okay, bye everybody.