Mia Hamm: The Vision of a Champion

I think the times we're in just mirrors exactly what the Vision of a Champion quote is all about. No one's watching you. The accountability is your own. What you commit to doing, who you commit to being is going to serve you well for the rest of your life. You have to find ways to push yourself. And I know with my kids and talking to some of the parents around here, you're seeing their kids really committing to wanting to be better because they can't wait to get back out there. They're like, okay, I'm going to show my coaches that I really love this game, but this is a time to be that champion when no one's watching.

You're listening to the Vision of a Champion podcast with Anson Dorrance. Eight time coach of the year, 22 time national champion, coach of the 1991 Women's World Cup Team hall of Famer.

Leader and mentor to so many in the soccer community. On this podcast, Anson brings on players.

And coaches to discuss what it means to be a champion. The drive, the passion, the desire, and yes, the stories.

Here's your host, Voice of the NCFC Courage, Dean Linke.

Hello everyone, soccer players, coaches, fans and all of the above. Welcome to the first episode of the Vision of a Champ podcast. This entire series is geared around breaking down the amazing book and success of the Vision of a Champion, advice and inspiration from the world's most successful women's soccer coach, the great Anson Dorrance. Written by Anson and Gloria Averbush. I'm your host, Dean Linke, longtime soccer broadcaster and longtime voice of the North Carolina Courage women's professional soccer team, and in fact, the junior Press officer of the 1991 U.S. world Championship team, coached by Anson Dorrance and led in the midfield by perhaps the most iconic female athlete of all time, Mia Hamm. Now, before we get into today's episode and what we have in store for you, let me give you a quick summary of the Vision of a Champion podcast and what you can expect to hear in this series. Myself and my alternating co host Natalie Boddy will be joined by Anson Dorrance and superstar special guests from the soccer community to discuss their unique experiences and opinions on various soccer related topics. The topic of conversation in each sequential episode will be based on a chapter in the Vision of a Champion. While reading the book would serve as a complement to the podcast, it is in no way necessary to read the book for you to enjoy the podcast. If you are a young aspiring soccer star, a UNC sports fanatic, or a general fan of the beautiful game. This is the perfect podcast you can enjoy and listen to whenever you get your podcast. Now for our first episode, as I teased a moment ago, we have something very special in store for you. We will start Chapter one the Vision of a Champion, which highlights the UNC Women's soccer dynasty spanning multiple decades. And who could be better to bring as our first guest than one of the most prolific players that came from this dynasty, in fact, arguably the greatest player in the history of women's soccer. This guest is by far one of the most successful UNC alumni, U.S. women's National Team players and female athletes of all time. We generally could spend half of our podcast naming all of her different accolades, but we will highlight a few of her highest achievements while playing for Aunt's Endurance at UNC. From 1989 to 1993, she won four consecutive national championships, only losing one game out of the 95 she played and scoring 103 goals on top of her multiple All American and ACC placements. In 2003, the Atlantic Coast Conference named her, alongside with Michael Jordan as the greatest athletes in the ACC's 50 years of existence. For the US Women's National Team, she was called up as a 15 year old, the youngest on the team, and scored the game winning goal in her first cap against Sweden and the team went on to win the first inaugural FIFA Women's World cup in China. She played a big part in the US Women's National Team for three Summer Olympics and four Women's World cup tournaments where they won two gold medals and two World cup titles. This includes of course the climatic 1999 World cup finish where she converted her penalty kick against China and the US eventually won to give us one of the most iconic moments in American sports. She has been inducted into countless hall of Fames across the globe and was named to the U.S. soccer's U.S. women's National Team all time best 11. Off the field, she started a foundation to help bone marrow and cord blood transplant patients and their families. She became a best selling author for her book Go for the A Champion's Guide to Winning in Soccer and in Life. Our guest even wrote the foreword in the beginning of the Vision of a Champion. It is remarkable how much she has achieved and we truly are honored to have her on our first Guest and the Vision of a Champion podcast. And after naming all of her accolades, it should be no surprise to anyone that we are joined today by the incomparable Mia Hamm. Mia, welcome.

Hey, thanks for having me Dean. I appreciate it.

Yeah I'm delighted to be back in touch with you. Now, not only do I get the pleasure of speaking to one of the best soccer players of all time, but I get to include the best college coach. Doesn't matter. Soccer doesn't matter. Gender of all time. And that, of course, is Anson Dorrance, coach of 22 different national championship teams and a US World cup team. Seven time coach of the Year and also an inductee in a multitude of different hall of Fames. Anson, coach Mia during her time at UNC and when she played for the U.S. women's National Team at the 1991 World Cup. Anson, great to be with you.

Dean, it's always a pleasure. Thank you.

All right, here we go. Let's go to work. Okay. Now, Mia, as you just heard, you've accomplished so much in your life, and that also includes being an amazing soccer mom and even an owner of an MLS team. And you, as I already said, Mia, you've written a book, so you certainly know what it means to ask someone to write the forward. So let's start with that. What did it mean, Mia Ham, to be asked by your coach, your mentor, and just as important, your friend Anson Dorrance to write the foreword for Vision of a Champion.

Well, I was incredibly honored. You know, first and foremost, I wouldn't be where I am today without Anson and the program at Carolina. The influence it had on my life and on my career and an opportunity to kind of honor him and what he's meant to me by writing the forward. It was a no brainer.

All right, well said. And Anson, on the very first page of the book, even before you get to Mia's forward, you pull a quote that involves Mia. And I read it now for a reaction from you. It says, the vision of a champion is someone who is bent over, drenched in sweat, at the point of exhaustion where no one else is watching. That was Mia Hamm. And that perhaps inspired this book.

Absolutely. And I've told this story a thousand times, because obviously I've got a million stories about Mia, but this one is my absolute favorite, for all kinds of reasons, because it's not just about my personal relationship with her. Because when I got a copy of her book and to see the note I'd written her in there, I mean, that just went right to the middle of my heart. But basically, the story is instructive. It's instructive about athletic greatness. And I think what people don't really appreciate about the people that get to their potential are the huge Sacrifices they make outside of the training environment. And there's been no great player in any sport in the world that hasn't succeeded because of the stuff they've done on their own. So the story is actually a really good one, and I would love to tell it again. I'm sitting in my house. I'm located, you know, 10 to 15 minutes away from my office. There are a lot of ways I can get there. And the fastest way is to zip down Sewell Elementary School Road, hit Estes Drive extension, make a left, it runs into Martin Luther King. You zip down Martin Luther King, you make a left right after the police station. Couple side streets, bang, I'm in my office. If I'm in a rush, that's the way I go. Some days I'm not in a rush. So there's this little park. It's called Umstead. And every now and again, I like to go through Umstead Park. It's scenic, it's serene, it's peaceful. And this is late February. It's kind of cold out. It's relatively early in the morning. And I decided to zip through Umsted Park. I'm driving through there, and all of a sudden, out of the corner of my eye, I can see this figure going 5 and back 10 and back 15 and back 20 and back 25 and back. I recognize that immediately. That's our exhausting thing we call cones. It's just absolutely an enervating fitness platform. So I knew it was one of my kids. So I was thinking, let's see what's going on here. So I pull over in a parking lot, and all of a sudden I'm going, oh, my gosh, that's Mia. And this is in the second semester of her senior year. So she's done with her collegiate eligibility, and she's out there just basically killing herself. I mean, hot air shooting from her lungs, you know, just sweat flying off her brow. And I was just so impressed. I couldn't wait to get into work. And I didn't tell Mia I was there. I just zipped into work, I scribbled a note to her, I dropped it in the mail, and I forgot about it. And that was the note. And then the part that was so heartwarming is all of a sudden, Mia writes the book. She sends me a copy, and there in the breastplate of the book was the note I'd written her. I mean, I've always felt that if someone has touched you in any positive or extraordinary way, you write them a note. But I don't know what happens with these notes. For all I knew, they became fire starters or something. So I didn't know that anyone actually kept any one of them. And all of a sudden, Mia sends me the book and I open the book up and, holy cow, did that go right into the middle of my heart. I mean, it was just so incredibly touching for her, first of all, to keep the note, but also then to put it in her book. So that must have meant that it struck her in a very powerful way. That's my favorite Mia story because it just hits so many different things that are important to me, I hope to Mia, but also to this incredible game that all of us are involved in. It's about getting to your potential and that sort of thing. The things you do on your own outside of practice are the final measures in athletic greatness. And I just wanted Mia to know that this is it. She was checking all the boxes with that.

She was checking the boxes of a vision of a champion. Anson, sticking with you, before being asked to coach the UNC women's team in 1979 and before you experienced the greatness of me at ham, did you ever have any experience with women's athletics or was it completely new territory for you?

Well, honestly, I was hired as the men's coach at unc. I had no expectation to end up coaching women. I mean, I was. There were collisions that made this incredibly lucky set of circumstances happen. First of all, the guy I played for helped me get the job. And then all of a sudden, the AD that was paying me part time while I was a law student dragged me out to watch a women's club play. I had no ambition to coach them. In fact, I complimented them because he said they were considering them as a potential varsity. So I was sort of shilling for them, shilling for their coach. And then he basically just delivered the team to me, says, well, Anson, we'll make your part time men's position full time if you will take on this women's club as a varsity. So I had no long term ambitions of coaching, so. But this is full time income now. I could contribute a bit more because at the time Melissa was carrying me, my wife was making the overwhelming majority of our income as I was attending law school. So for me, that was it. I was just going to do this until I finished law school and then end up working for my dad's oil company and then obviously retiring on a yacht in the Mediterranean, living on a condominium in the south of France. I mean, my life was set. And poor Melissa thought she was marrying this potentially, you know, cash cow of a lawyer. And, gosh, she must have been depressed the day I got back from law school, saying, honey, you know this law school thing. No, no, no, no. I think I decided to be a soccer bum. But obviously, I loved coaching the women. Now, to be completely honest, I wasn't any good. You know, it took me a while to figure this thing out. By the time Mia rolled in, I was a little bit better at coaching women, and I loved it. I mean, they were actually coachable. I mean, heck, half the guys you're coaching are fighting you every step of the way. And even though I had some extraordinary men that I coached, it was just different. And so I felt this was a chance for me to do something special. I loved them. I loved coaching the women. So my ad gave me an opportunity to just coach one, and I picked the women. And even though I've had some extraordinary men that are wonderful human beings and great players, I knew that the women's game had a future, and I wanted to be a part of it.

I say you've done okay, Anson.

Indeed.

Mia, I'm going to ask you to go down memory lane, if you will, please. Can you recall your first interaction with Anson Dorrance and what was the driving force for you to join his dynasty at North Carolina?

Well, my first interaction was actually at the women's regional tournament that I was brought into for North Texas, and our coach, John Costpoon, had kind of pulled me up. And I remember Carla Overbeck was on the team. You know, she told me that she was going to play at Carolina. And so I was introduced to Anson kind of in passing. I was still so confused about what national team or regional team or Olympic development even was, so I was just like, oh, okay, he's the coach. You're going to play in college. That's cool. But not to say he didn't leave an impression, but I was so focused on trying not to throw up before the games, and I think at one point, we were playing, like, so many games in the heat. I think I had, like, heat exhaustion, so I had to sit out one game, which wasn't the way to impress the national team coach. But, you know, once I joined the national team, you know, I got to know him a little better, and it was bumpy at first, but he kind of stuck with me, and guess he saw some potential there.

Anson, as you sit and reflect. And I want to ask this question early because you had a front row seat at the ascension of Mia Hamm and all of her greatness and really propping up the women's game like no one other. As you reflect on that, with that front row seat, what are your thoughts? Because it's pretty amazing to watch even today.

Well, I really felt like we had something in the women's game. I really thought we had something in the United States. When I was hired, the US had never won a game in international competition. Five years later, we were world champions. And so the ascension. Mia was right. This was not a smooth ride. In fact, we went to Taiwan, and New Zealand beat us. And I'm flying back on the plane. And of course, my national coaching career was, you know, pulling one dagger out of my back after another. And so I was convinced that, you know, that this was my swan song. I thought that was my last tournament because I thought all of my. The vultures would have, you know, settled in with our U.S. soccer leadership. And I thought I was done. So it was bumpy, and there are a lot of reasons it was bumpy. We were a young soccer nation, but also back then, we didn't have much money. Alan Rothenberg was the first one to really figure out a way to generate enormous amounts of money for our teams to spend. But I was hired during the Werner Fricker era, and so there were some years when we literally had one training camp the entire year. And keep in mind, we're not picking these kids from professional teams and bringing them in. And this is what I admire so much about the 91ers. They basically trained themselves because we didn't have that many camps. So you had to pick these young women, like the vision of a champion quote, that could train on their own. So it was an incredible collection of extraordinary women. I'm still connected with so many of them. I absolutely love it. And they did some remarkable things. And what they did is they put our game on the map. And the other thing I loved is they just kept getting better. We picked Amia when she was young. We picked Foudy and Lilly when they were 16, and we invested in them, and then it was perfect. It was almost like just as they were developing their confidence, bang, then the World cup rolled around. I mean, if we had done it the previous year, that wouldn't have been as good a team. And so it was just like everything worked out for us. I loved jumping in and being a part of the bumpy ride. I mean, heck, I remember, you know, driving on a. On a train to Yanji, which is just north of the North Korean border. And I think when we got there, we were all so covered in soot from the train. We just slept in our clothes that night. And that would all obviously protect us from the bed lice and the roaches that we were sleeping with. So, you know, the old days with the national team were not glorious five star hotels. No, no, no. But to be completely honest, that was built for me. I'm not a whiner. And one of the things we encouraged our kids to do was to never whine. So this is perfect for me. And I loved every part of it. I wouldn't trade, you know, anything in that bumpy ride for the huge, I guess, stress and pressure these extraordinary coaches and players are under now. I love being a pioneer.

Sticking with you, Anson, in chapter one of Vision of a Champion, you mentioned how you admire self confidence, but you state that you are weary of a player who is too sure of themselves and their abilities. How does that factor into your search when you are recruiting some of the best soccer talent in the world, AKA Mia Hamm?

Well, obviously what you look for, and the older I have become as a coach, the more I understand these principles. When you are young, you've got a gut feeling about some of this stuff, but now I have a completely different understanding and it's a very genuine, real appreciation for, for what you should bring onto your squad. What you should bring on is women of character. Women that basically have an example that they're going to show not just to themselves, but to the players around them, but also to everyone they run into. When I look back now, that entire collection of 91ers, these are women with extraordinary personal character. And I'm not talking about athletic character that helps you become a great player. I'm talking about humanity, you know, caring for each other, embracing the fact that we have an opportunity to promote and pioneer this game if we do things properly. And this is why, obviously someone like Mia checks every single box because she not only represented us extremely well on the field, her example off the field sold our game. And we were trying to sell our game because back in 1991, no one cared. FIFA tried to hide this event in China. So if it was completely a miserable event, they could pretend like, well, no one saw it. And you know what? Yeah, no one saw it except for the factory workers that were required to be there for every single game. So it looked like the stadiums were sold out. When we got back to the United States, boredom met us at the airport and that was it. I think we had one journalist. And that was it. One paper covered us, USA Today. I think once we got to the finals, maybe the New York Times and the LA Times jumped in, but basically no one cared because we were hidden. But this was important. These women sold the game. I look back on and I understand right now much more. From my perspective, we had to find women of extraordinary character because that would create an amazing collection of teammates, but also it would sell our game. And that's exactly what happened.

Hey everyone, we're going to take a quick break here to tell you about our sponsor, soccer.com Anson has been coaching for 44 years and it seems like soccer.com has been around nearly that long as well. It's pretty close as the soccer.com business has been family run and based in Hillsborough, North Carolina since 1984. If you're a player or a coach who needs soccer shoes, equipment, gear, whatever it may be, do with the pro do, head on over to soccer.com this is Dean Linke. I hope you've been enjoying the podcast and I wanted to make you aware that Anson just released a new audiobook version of his hardcover book, the Vision of a Champion. Now you can listen to the book, narrated by Anson Dorrance and switch back to the free podcast to hear the stars of the women's game discuss each chapter. The Vision of a Champion Audiobook is available on Apple Books, Amazon's, Audible, Google Play, or wherever you get your audiobooks. To find it, simply search the Vision of a Champion Audiobook. Now let's get back to the show.

Now Mia, your own book has a consistent message that humility is a necessity for success. And one of your famous quotes from that book is your refusal to ever admit that you're the best women's soccer player in the world. This is in stark contrast to another great UNC athlete who we've been carefully watching recently with the Last Dance documentary in Michael Jordan, who I know you know well. A takeaway many viewers have had is Jordan's certain belief that he is the best player in the world and how he is insulted to be compared to anyone else. Where have you found that humility has been more beneficial in your growth and persistent improvement as an athlete?

Well, one, I was one of six kids and I was the fourth actually out of six. So a lot of the times no one's even paying attention to you. So I think that was just part of my upbringing as well. As, you know, my parents were constantly volunteering and giving back in their community and talking about the importance of all of Us being in this together, regardless of what we do. And so that being a part of my background, that's the way, you know, I approach life and my career is. I've always been very honest in terms of my development as a player. Was I good? Heck, yeah, I was good. And there were days that I was brilliant, but there were also days that I was average and where I didn't make fitness and where I didn't score the important goal. And what I learned as I got older as a player is sometimes I got caught up in trying to be the best at everything. Like, you know, I want to be the best leader. I remember being at Carolina, and they made me the team captain, I think, my senior year. So automatically I was like, okay, I've got to lead like all the great leaders I've had, like Carla Oberbeck, you know, I have to lead like Christine Lilly. And I failed miserably. And what I soon learned was I had to do it my own way. I couldn't. I couldn't be someone else. And so with regards to humility, that's the way I did it. That's what motivated me was to be responsible to other people. And I still tried to be the best player I could be. But one of the things that I learned from my coaches, and it's one of the things I talked about at Tony DeCicco's memorial was he helped me understand that it's okay not to be the best in every single thing. You still work on those skills, but, you know, you have people around you that that's what their strength is, and you should find greatness in that. I wasn't a great header of the ball. I shouldn't push Michelle Akers out of the way to be like, no, Michelle, I know this is what you do, but I'm trying to prove something to everyone. It's like, heck, no. I want to win. So 10 out of 10, 11 out of 10, I'm going to put Michelle Akers on the end of that service than I would ever put me. And it didn't say anything about what I thought of myself as a player. It just. I was very honest that way. So I worked on aspects that I felt I could improve upon, and that was to be the one on the service end of that ball. So that humility comes from my upbringing, but also.

It'S just who I am. It's how I view relationships. And believe me, I'm as competitive as anyone. But I think a lot of the times it becomes exhausting if you Focused on all the things that you are not, rather than focusing on the things that you are now.

Anson, as a follow up to that earlier, I asked you about that front row seat to her ascension. And part of Mia Hamm is that humility, where whether she was brilliant or almost brilliant, she was always very concentrated on, wait. Christine Lilly does great things. Julie Foudy does great things. Mary Harvey does great things. It was almost like she didn't want that whole spotlight because she wanted to make sure that everybody else also got a little bit of that spotlight.

Well, I mean, the greatest example I've ever seen, and I'm talking about all sports, was what happened after the 99 world championship that obviously we won. And Mia was one of the penalty kickers in that game against China. We wanted to start a league, and Mia was the driving force with publicity for the league. And honestly, she could have demanded an incredible salary for that league. No one would have begrudged her a one penny if she was the highest paid player in that league times 10. And here's what I absolutely love. And this gets to the core of character and who you are. She wouldn't take one dime more than the deepest reserve on that world championship team. And that helped us develop this league, but also makes the statement about what she wanted to be. She wanted to genuinely be a pioneer for the game. And so for me, statements like that, I mean, people can say things all the time. They care about this, they care about that. But let me tell you this. If money gets involved with, you know, 99.9% of the population, it changes this character piece. And then it's always about, well, you know, I'm going to get what I can. And all of a sudden, all these things we consider virtues dissolve underneath this idol of basically being a financial mercenary. And Mia didn't buy into that. And so she created this incredible culture that honestly is still a part of, I think, the greatest parts of our national team today. So for me, that was an incredible example of her demonstrating this extraordinary character.

Mia, I said earlier, you're a soccer mom of three, and the way I understand it, you're also a soccer coach. What were some of Anson's coaching principles that stuck with you throughout your national team and WUSA career that perhaps you even use today?

I think, you know, coaching my daughter's teams, trying to find ways to help young girls kind of realize that competition is fun and to make that a part of every session and, you know, understanding when they're younger you, you have to make it in terms of games, rather than like, hey, step on, on the line, you know, let's look eye to eye and go after it. And so kind of understanding and learning that process, because it's one thing to see pictures of yourself when you were 6, 7, 8 years old, and it's another thing to remember exactly kind of what was in your head, in your heart, and where you wanted to be at that moment. So I struggled with realizing the most joyful part of the training session was when I gave them the whiteboard and they got to draw pictures. But that's okay. I had to learn patience. And, you know, I just felt this incredible responsibility to all these girls to try to make them better. And what I soon learned is that they did become better because they were invested in each other. So at the end of the season, you know, we finished second. But to see their growth personally and how they were cheering, you know, for the most talented player to the one that had improved the most equally, and that they valued and understood the importance of each and every single player was, I think, for Stephanie and myself, who's my co coach, our biggest achievements.

Mia, from where you sit, and I realize you're further away from the college game now, but how has the women's game collegiately changed since the days of your dynasty?

I think there's greater parity, I think, you know, and that comes from a lot of different factors. I mean, Anson going to talk about the recruiting just because I'm not there. But you're seeing more and more programs have the opportunities and success. You know, there's so many more talented players out there that creates the environment where it's much more competitive than it used to be. You know, you still have really strong conferences where teams, you know, I know acc, they just beat each other up all season, it seems like, but that's where we wanted our game to go. I think it's one of the reasons why I love playing for Anson and playing at Carolina is, you know, our mentality was we wanted everyone's best shot. You know, when we stepped on the line or raised the trophy, we knew we earned it. That, for me, is what I want to continue to see more consistently is players understanding what it takes to get there because they just think it's throw together a bunch of really good players. It's not whether it's being committed to a system. You know, there are days where you're going to be asked to play a different role. Are you receptive to that? You know, injuries are a big part, but. But it's that mentality of you're really loving the grind of every single week of practice. And that was something that was incredibly motivating when I was at Carolina is like, yeah, you hated fitness days, but there was nothing better when it was over. You know, there was this sense of accomplishment, but it just brought us closer as a team. I love what I'm seeing in the game right now.

Anson, I want you to add on to that, but then I also want your take, Anson, on what has changed with the female soccer athlete. How much has changed in the development of the female soccer athlete?

Well, let me first of all go back to what Mia said. And I love this phrase, loving the grind. The teams that end up, championship teams, and the athletes that end up, you know, becoming the best of the best, they do love the grind. Does it mean while they're grinding, it's incredibly joyful? No, it's not incredibly joyful. I mean, half the time you're throwing up or you're dizzy, but all of a sudden when it's over, you have this huge feeling of accomplishment. And so I love that phrase, loving the grind, because every championship team we've had at UNC and also when I was the coach of the national team, they loved it. They loved going after each other. They loved basically achieving their fitness goals. And so for me, that phrase that Mia coining there is absolutely spot on. And I think the people that are listening to this podcast, the ones that are still players that want to become extraordinary, please know that, you know, this didn't just happen with Mia. Wasn't like she, you know, rolled out of the womb like this and all of a sudden that was it and she didn't have to do anything. No, this was a grind for her to get to the promised land. And watching that, for me, I mean, there's nothing more enjoyable for a coach than seeing a kid get better and better and better. And since I started coaching me as a 15 year old, I saw the entire progression and the vision of a champion. The title of this book and the quote is all about the grind. It is all about the grind.

And that's what is required of you from the game of soccer. It can't just be what's on the previous game score sheet, that you have to be committed to greatness every time you step on the field. That's one of the things that I learned about the game being at Carolina. It's one of the things about the quote for me that, you know, the vision of a champion, I was good at A lot of aspects of my game, but I wasn't great. And the one area where I really, really struggled was the psychological dimension. And that's the hardest for any athlete. And it's probably the most fragile of elite athletes. But what that quote said to me was he saw that I had made that choice and that I was making that choice consistently. That part of the game is incredibly uncomfortable. It's asking you to reach to depths that you didn't think possible, but to do it because you have standards of yourself. And the most important part of that quote is when no one else is watching. I think it's really easy to be motivated when someone's cheering you on. But do you continue to hold the same standards when no one is watching? For me, that's what fitness was about. We knew what the timestamp was on those cones. We knew what the distance was. Granted, there were times in the season where the five yards apart would be more like six yards. And then towards, you know, the end of the year, it was more like four. But you knew. You knew what was asked of you. And, you know, that day, Anson drove by. I could have. I could have run eight and no one would have known any differently. But what's important and what they taught me, Carolina taught me and the women on the national team was I knew. And as long as I maintained that high standard, I could grow to the level I felt I could grow. That to me meant so much because I was about to take a step into the unknown. I was graduating from college where I'd had four and a half, five years because I took 91 off. I was in a controlled environment that helped me develop. And I was about to go into an area where I once again had to go back to training on my own. And was I ready? And that note told me I was ready.

Well said. Well, a couple teams that are batting about a thousand right now are the North Carolina Courage and the nwsl and of course, course, the amazing US Women's national team. Mia, they're on incredible run. They've won back to back World cup titles. They've rarely been challenged really, since your first World Championship in 1991. I talked to Karla Overbeck. She remembers the losses sometimes even more than the wins. Do you think this current run, Mia Ham, is sustainable, or will other countries soon catch up to the Americans consistent level of play?

Listen, whether they continue to win, they're setting a new standard in terms of how this game is played. I think they've done an amazing job of bringing in new, younger players, giving them an opportunity to kind of get their feet wet, get some success under their belt. And that has served them going forward. You know, Rose Lavelle, prior to you saw the talent and then she comes into this World cup and just takes off and you could see the confidence in which she played, you know, and then you also had Megan Rapinoe who stepped up and just was a tremendous leader for them. I look at other countries now where they were looking at the US and then we kind of moved to see what Germany was doing when they won the two World Cups. And now people are really kind of taking. We've taken the focus off of Germany and brought it back to the U.S. you know, people are wondering how we're developing our players. And, you know, club soccer is an important part of that, but so is collegiate soccer. I think what collegiate soccer does is it allows these young players to be put in a leadership role that they might not have in the national team. Because when you have 20 of the best players or 24 of the best players, they're not all going to be your captains. So they need to learn how to lead in different environments. And I think the collegiate game has really helped us in that way in making them more resilient when they come in at the national team levels. You know, after the Dutch won the women's Euros, everyone's trying to figure out what Serena did with her team. You know, it's. It's a good problem to have, but I think we our potential right now, looking at this current crop of players and the young players coming up on the, on the U side, there's a lot of talent.

Anson, can you add to that, please?

Well, the thing I've always been concerned about is why we keep using a European model for our development. On the women's side, Mike Wyattola makes this point almost every time he writes a column for Soccer America. Based on the success the United States women have had, maybe they should be modeling their player development program after ours. And he makes an excellent point because Mia, what she's saying right now is so good. All these kids come out of the collegiate environment. So what all these kids come from are environments where they are the margin of victory. So they practice being basically winners and losers because within their collegiate environments, they are the ones. So all of a sudden in this 17 to 21 year old band where almost every American and every Canadian player gets to play, you have to be the margin of victory. And it's not easy always being the one that has to Win and lose games, sort of like the Michael Jordan taking the last shot sort of thing. But in all these collegiate environments, all the women that play for the United States and Canada are almost trained in this leadership quality that Mia was referencing. So before we decide, oh yes, we have to do everything the way the Europeans are doing it. No, because here's what's happening now. Do you know, I am overwhelmed with the number of extraordinary foreign players that want to play in the United States. And it's been a recent surge. Not that we couldn't bring in foreigners in the old days. Heck, Mia played with Serena Veckman. They played together at the University of North Carolina. Serena, of course, was the coach of the Dutch team that we played in the World Cup Final. Serena is a wonderful coach and she sent me the most wonderful text recently about how much she learned in our environment playing with the Mia Hams and the Christina Lillys and the Tisha Venturinis, I mean, surrounded by these great American players. So she knew what she had to replicate. So our collegiate environments are actually very good. And now, of course, the professional environment in the US is also extraordinary. And we're not a top heavy league. Heck, if you go to the French leagues or the German leagues or even the leagues in Scandinavia, the top two or three teams do all the winning. In our league, even the worst team can give you a nightmare. It's sort of like the epl, the NWSL is like the epl. Watford can beat Manchester United. Well, in this league, it's the same thing that can happen. And so basically I love the context of our player development right now. And I think all of this contributes in the most positive way as we.

Walk down the final five minutes of our Chapter one vision of a champion with the two legends that are Mia Hamm and Anson Dorrance. It's a good time to be reflective as we are in an unprecedented time. And we did this a little bit as well with Paul Riley. But Mia Ham, I gotta ask you, just for fun, particularly again representing Last Dance, if you took your 91 team, right, loaded with all those superstars and the triple edged sword and took on the current team, talk to me about that matchup. Oh man, what a great matchup.

Right?

No, definitely, it's. Listen, I think we had up top, we had probably the three most dynamic players in 91 and they were all so different. So it's not like you could organize for speed or a physical presence. April could get in behind and she's the type of player that would rip your heart out and eat it in front of you and laugh about it the entire time. You know, you had Michelle Akers, who in my opinion is still the best player I've ever seen. She could literally put a team on her back and Willis to victory. And then, you know, Karen Jennings Gabara is the best dribbler I've seen. No matter how much you set yourself up defensively to deal with her 1v1, you couldn't. And so they were just incredibly dynamic. You know, in the back we were so solid. We played a three back, didn't we, Hanson?

Yes, we did.

Taking tons of risks back there. The only way I made it on the field, unfortunately, was through an injury. So as Anson liked to say, you were the first one off the bench wherever, but I knew I wasn't going to get a sniff up on that front line. So, you know, wherever I could help the team, I was willing to help the team. But you know, this current crop is incredibly talented as well. You know, with Tobin and Megan and Alex and then you have a sour brun and Crystal done back there. You know, Crystal doesn't get enough credit for what she did this past summer. She had to mark every opponent's best attacking personality. So every single game she is dealing with an entirely different skill set. I text her after the game against France and all I said was you were a lion out there. Like you are a frickin beast. I think it would be an amazing match. It's so hard to put them up against each other because I'm a big USA fan. I'd want both teams to win. That's a great take, even though I hate ties.

No ties allowed. And really a great plug because Crystal Dunn will be featured on an upcoming Vision of a Champion podcast as well. All right, final question. We'll start with Anson and then we'll end with Mia. And any way you look at it, I mentioned these unprecedented times and whether you wanted to be a role model or not, these are the times where people look to people that have a vision of a champion. More astutely said, people look to champions for words of inspiration. I have in front of me two of the greatest champions of all time. As you look into the camera here on the Vision of a Champion podcast, you think about the young women. Really, everybody, what's your message to them right now? For inspiration? We'll start with you, Anson, and then we'll end with the great Mia Hamm.

Well, I've been saying this on every podcast I've been invited on since the pandemic began. And basically, I think the 91ers are great examples of how to thrive during this pandemic, because they thrived. They thrived with basically no budgets. They thrived without a pro league. They thrived by training on their own. And what they understood is they understood the grind. They understood so much about what Mia has been sharing with all of us. They understood how to train on their own. They understood that they've got to be duelers. And since they didn't have a real team to play on, they were all 1v1 artists, every one of them. I mean, all those people that Mia was describing for you on that 91 team, every one of them could fry you off the dribble. Why? Because that's the way they trained. And so maybe sometimes we lose sight as we're constructing these incredible teams about the value of the dueler. Who are the duelers? The duelers are people that can beat you off the dribble and then strip you defensively if you're running at them. So let's get better at that. So who do you play? Well, you're basically, you're confined to your house. You know, play your older brother, your younger brother, You've got two sisters, play them both. If your dad can still change directions, get his rear end out there in the backyard, fry him a couple times so he'll stop screaming at you from the stands about all the mistakes you're making. If your dad's too easy to beat, drag your mom out there, put her in frigging goal, play them both. So right now, basically, the 91ers would be a great reflection of how you can get to the top of your game by training on your own. Is there a wall near your house? Find it, smash a ball up against it, and that'll help you. The strike itself will benefit you. So will the first touch as it comes off the wall. Invent these different games. My kids are here. They are basically refugees from New York. So Donovan is in the basement right now with Michelle. What are we doing? Every day? We're playing 2v2, baby. We rotate between 2v2 basketball, 2v2 soccer, and pickleball. And so, yeah, just have some fun with the people in your household and get out there and play. Love the ball, love the game. And I'll tell you, that's going to get you to your potential, because people like Mia Ham, they have spent their lives loving the ball, loving the game, and certainly in Mia's case, promoting it to where we are right now.

Great Words of wisdom. We end with you, Mia. Then, now and forever. People look up to you as, especially now, your final words.

Well, I think the times we're in.

Just mirrors exactly what the vision of a champion quote is all about. No one's watching you. The accountability is your own. And I think what's done in this environment will serve you. What you commit to doing, who you commit to being, is going to serve you well for the rest of your life. It's difficult. You have to be creative. You have to find ways to push yourself. And that's not just athletically, you know, in terms of, you know, kids doing remote learning, it's really easy to unplug. But are you committed to your studies? And I think, you know, as Anson talked about, this kind of brings out your true character. And I know with my kids and talking to some of the parents around here, you're seeing their kids really committing to wanting to be better because they can't wait to get back out there. They're like, okay, I'm going to show my coaches that I really love this game. I think it's really made us reflective about what we have because we're not able to get back out there. But this is a time to be that champion when no one's watching.

For me, this is simply as good as it gets. Two of the all time greats, Mia Hammer, Anson Dorrance, they have the vision of a champion and they are champions in every sense of the word. Thank you, Mia. Thank you, Anson, so much. I want you all to know that if you like this show, one way you can support our work is to subscribe to this podcast on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen and leave us a rating and review as well. This show was edited and produced by Creative Allies. If you're looking for information on full service podcast production, head on over to creative allies.com I'm Dean Linke and we'll see you next time on the Vision of a Champion podcast.

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