Tobin Heath: Chapter 12 - The Competitive Cauldron

At Carolina, you take it up another notch because you compete in everything. You're accountable to every practice session, to every game. And that type of accountability that's just held in front of everybody else, it's so motivating and it drives everybody. And football is 100% a team sport. You know, you can have some absolutely outstanding individuals that, that are very unique, have a very unique skill set that makes them world class. But to be able to like, compete every single year on teams that are gonna be winning teams, you learn what's needed to win.

You're listening to the Vision of a Champion podcast with Anson Dorrance, eight time Coach of the Year, 22 time National Champion Coach of the 1990s, 1991 Women's World Cup Team hall of Famer, leader and mentor to so many in the soccer community. On this podcast, Anson brings on players and coaches to discuss what it means to be a champion. The drive, the passion, the desire, and yes, the stories.

Here's your host, voice of the North Carolina Courage and North Carolina FC Dean Linke.

And hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of the Vision of a Champion podcast. I'm your host, Dean Linke, longtime soccer broadcaster and longtime voice of the North Carolina Courage of Women's Professional Soccer Team. We've got a special episode indeed in store for you guys today as we move on to chapter 12 of the vision of a Champion. And we finally get to talk about the ominous competitive cauldron. I'll let Anson explain the competitive cauldron for those who don't already know about it, but this chapter is all about competition and how you can use it to your advantage to develop skills and become mentally tough on and off the field. Our guest today is the great Tobin Heath. I think arguably the most technical, creative and dare I say, stylistic player to perhaps ever put on a USA uniform. She's just that good. Tobin played at UNC from 2006 to 2009, winning three NCAA championships with the Great Ants Endurance, and had a knack, of course, for finding the back of the net. She scored or assisted on just over 50 goals for the Tar Heels during her four seasons, including her three national championships. She's also been named First Team All ACC, the NCAA All Tournament team, United Soccer Coaches All American Team, and and the US Soccer Young Female Athlete of the Year. After a successful college career, Tobin, he took her skills to various different professional women's soccer teams and leagues, even a six month stint with Paris Saint Germain in France. But she finally returned home to the United States to be a member of the Portland Thorns founding roster. In 2013, the team's first season, the Thorns won the NWSL Inaugural Championship on over the Western New York Flash, two to nothing with Tobin scoring off a direct free kick and being named the NWSL Championship mvp. She has stayed with the Thorns ever since and won their second title in 2017 over my North Carolina Courage. And while Tobin has played with some talented teammates, her individual skill has been noticed as she has been named NWSL best 11 in 2016, 18 and 19. Tobin was a regular for US youth national teams and made her debut for the senior team way back in 2008. She was named to the U.S. 2008 Summer Olympics roster as a 20 year old and had three caps. Since her first cap in 2008. Tobin, with the U.S. women's National Team, has won two Olympic gold medals, two World cup titles and has scored 33 goals. She was named the U.S. soccer Female Athlete of the Year in 2016 and is still going strong. Tobin Heath was not only a player who survived the competitive cauldron that we're going to talk about in this chapter, but thrived in that atmosphere. And that resilience and determination is what has helped her achieve such an impressive career. This episode will also include UNC women's soccer head coach Anson Dorrance, a man I call the greatest college coach any gender of all time. While Anson himself did not invent the original competitive cauldron, he did bring the concept to women's soccer and modernized it for today's game. It has proven to be effective at developing talent since Anson and his teams have won 22 national championships. With that as the backdrop, it is an honor to be joined by the great Tobin Heath and Anson Dorrance. Tobin, thanks so much for being with us.

Of course, thanks for having me.

All right, Anson. When you hear all of those stats about Tobin and you know she's still adding to him, it must just blow your mind.

Well, yeah, but Tobin knows this because holy cow, she's the reason people pay money to watch soccer games. I mean, every time she gets the ball, everyone holds their breath. They're wondering what's gonna happen. I just love it. I love the fact that not only does she just thoroughly enjoyed playing because you can see it in the way she plays. She sells our game. I mean, she absolutely sells our game. And so, you know, we're talking about equal pay and we're trying to figure out ways to get the women's game to a level that are being paid as much as the Men. Well, the Tobin Heaths are the reason people do pay money to watch women play. I mean, for all the right reasons. I absolutely love this kid.

All right, Tobin, before we get into the cauldron, you've had great coaches all the way through. In fact, I love your Continental tire ad where you talk about your youth coach and actually feature your youth coach. How did Anson help you advance your amazing abilities and all of the coaches in your life?

You kind of introduced all of my stats, and I feel like it took up a little bit of time, but I feel like if you were to put forth all of Anson's stats, it would shatter mine in terms of what he's produced in his career. I'm just a small drop of that. Honestly, for me, I just. I feel so grateful to have been able to be coached by Anson because he completely took my game to another level. Going to school at Carolina was the best four years of my life. I honestly don't know why anybody would go anywhere else. And that's not a plug that. That's just how much joy and fun, but also the amount of strides that I took as a person and as a player in terms of my own personal development. And that's all about the culture that exists and was created by Anton at Carolina that allows players to come in there and be changed and molded in so many different ways to be successful in this game that we love.

Part of that culture, of course, is the competitive cauldron. And we'll start with you, Anson. Do your best to explain it. We've touched on it in all of these chapters, but now this entire chapter is dedicated to it.

Well, what I love is I love you guys selecting this chapter to be Tobin's chapter. And let me share this with you, because I still tell this story to this day, and I want Tobin to understand. It's one of my favorite Tobin stories. I know one of your favorite events was the 4v4 tournament. And what was interesting about the 4v4 tournament is we would draft the teams in the 4v4 tournament, and basically your position in the draft would be based on your level in the 11v11 games that we competed in. So, basically, if you were the best player on the team, in other words, if you were Tobin Heath, you would draft last. So here's what was staggering about Tobin. Even though she's drafting last in almost every 4v4 tournament, her senior year, she never lost a tournament, which is unbelievable. And here's what I tell my kids. I tell them this to this day, what I love about Tobin is she can play in any line. And obviously, she's been used all over the field by every coach that's coached her. And so let's assume the coach is in the late stages of the game and there's 20 minutes left. They're trying to figure out a way to get their left back off the field and maybe throw another player at the 10 or the 7 or the 11. If Tobin's in one of those three positions, they take the defender off, they move Tobin to left back, and they sub the kid in wherever the kid needs to play. And so what I loved about watching her in the 4v4 tournaments, and I would share this with my kids, is Tobin would look at her team and say, okay, we're missing a defender. All right? I'm the defender. Or if she had a defender, she would put herself in midfield. Or if she was missing a goal score, she would put herself up front in the 4v4 event. So the thing I absolutely loved about her is the fact that she could put herself anywhere and figure out a way to win the game. And so she is one of my role models for teaching these kids about winning. Because basically, what you have to do is what Tobin does. If there's a problem on the field, you I'm gonna solve it. If we're not scoring goals, I will score goals. If we're struggling because we're not defending, I am gonna defend. And this is why for years, and Tobin knows this, I love it when Tobin's on the same side of the field as another Tar Heel, because usually if she's not, she's doing all the dirty work for that player that in whatever culture she came from, that player was basically trained not to defend. So for me, she's the perfect role model for the cauldron.

So, Tobin, when you hear the words competitive cauldron, what does it mean to you?

Honestly, it gets me excited. I definitely was born with the competitive gene and whatever that means in all ways. But at Carolina, you take it up another notch, because everything you compete in, everything. And the thing about that is that, you know, you're accountable to every practice session, to every game, and that type of accountability that's just held in front of everybody else, it's so motivating, and it drives everybody. And what I kind of think about that story, and, like, honestly, I think a lot of my success is attributed to the fact that, you know, football is 100% a team sport. And, you know, you can have some absolutely outstanding individuals that are very Unique, have a very unique skill set that makes them world class. But to be able to, like, compete every single year on teams that are going to be winning teams, you learn to what's needed to win and what's needed to win in moments. I think part of my skill set is not only understanding what's needed to win, but being able to, like Anson kind of said, morph in many ways to fill in the gaps of teams where it's needed. And then I think just my attitude and my competitiveness is just somewhat insane. Honestly, even when I train by myself, that kind of fuels that and I think what fuels kind of the expectations of everybody around me to get to another level. But I think from a team and a collective standpoint, I really learned that and really honed in on those skills at unc because you develop them individually, but then you develop them as a team as well. I remember Anson would always, you know, when we did, like our 1v1 days and stuff, there were obviously certain matchups that you just, you kind of were like, licking your chops to watch and also to play in. You know, those were the big ones that everybody had their eyes on. So I feel like creating these competitive moments that felt like such insane pressure, like where it's just like a simple one on one game that nobody's really ever going to see and it's in practice or whatever. But creating this moment that feels like just so extreme in a practice environment will prepare you for any moment, World Cup Finals and stuff like that. I just feel like those moments have become so much less. In a way, I hate to, like, take away from those moments because they're massive. But when you live your life in such a way that each moment is really focused on, and really you're putting everything into each moment, those big moments seem like, you know, all those moments added up. It doesn't seem like that much.

Let me jump in, Dean, because I know you've got a thousand questions for her, but what I love is Tobes. We had Lucy Bronze on, and holy cow, does she tell a great Tobin Heath story. Here's this kid from England and she's thrown into this competitive cauldron and her head is spinning. And she talks about in preseason, all of a sudden she's matched up with a great Tobin Heath. So here's Lucy Bronze telling the story on this podcast, and she says all of a sudden she's matched up with you. And of course she's been in preseason with you, so she knows who the heck you are. And she is absolutely terrified in this 1v1. So she's telling the story herself. She's talking about playing against you. And she said all of a sudden it was a close match, and then all of a sudden, you broke her down, and all of a sudden, you were a goal ahead of her. And then she said all of a sudden, by the end of the block, and she says you beat her, like, 10 to 1 or something.

And.

And I know it wasn't 10 to 1, but basically what she was trying to tell us is you annihilated her. And she said, boy, she remembered that the rest of her life. She took that into every environment she's been in her entire life, and it helped make her the player that she is. And she was basically, as she says, you know, trained at the feet of Tobin heath in the 1v1s when you absolutely electrocuted her. And so, anyway, I just wanted to share that with you. So go ahead, Dean, jump in. But I wanted Tobin to hear that from me.

Well, I like hearing that, because the next question is relating to how quickly you had to get accustomed to the competitive cauldron. Tobin, when you came in your freshman year, I want you to think back to that. Was it weird for you to have to challenge your teammates so hard in practice, or was that something you were already comfortable with by the time you got to North Carolina?

I don't think I ever really lacked confidence in challenging people. Anson had really high expectations for my whole class in stepping up as soon as we got to school in order to have big responsibilities our freshman year. So he kind of set the stage for us, and our expectations as a class were really high. You know, it felt like, collectively, we came in together. Honestly, still to this day, I feel like we fell short. We wanted to win four national championships, and we only won three. And if you were to ask anyone that came into that class, everybody knew we were preparing even before we got to Chapel Hill in the way that we were going to win. So I think, like, as a class, we definitely didn't lack confidence in our own abilities. And then also I think that the stage was kind of set for us, that we needed to be big impact players. Coming in our freshman year, I think we also had a senior class that included Heather O'Reilly, who was a huge mentor, role model for me personally growing up. So I feel like we had all the pieces in place to be able to compete, but you can't just, like, show up with, you know, good credentials of being on whatever teams you're on. And then just expect to, like, be a great player? No, like, you have to show up every single day and prove that at unc, you don't just walk around with all your stats. You have to, like, continue to compete. So I feel like my class was. I mean, some of the best players I still have ever played with are from unc. There were high expectations all around and we definitely started running from day one in terms of what we wanted to do while we were there.

Hey, everyone, we're going to take a quick break here to tell you about our sponsor, soccer.com Anson has been coaching for 44 years and it seems like soccer.com has been around nearly that long as well. It's pretty close as the soccer.com business has been family run and based in Hillsborough, North Carolina since 1984. If you're a player or a coach who needs soccer shoes, equipment, gear, whatever it may be, do what the pros do. Head on over to soccer.com.

This is Dean Linke. I hope you've been enjoying the podcast and I wanted to make you aware that Anson just released a new audiobook version of his hardcover book, the Vision of a Champion. Now you can listen to the book, narrated by Anson Dorrance, and switch back to the free podcast to hear the stars of the women's game discuss each chapter. The Vision of a Champion audiobook is available on Apple Books, Amazon's, Audible, Google Play, or wherever you get your audiobooks. To find it, simply search the Vision of a Champion Audiobook. Now let's get back to the show.

Tobin Heath's first two answers about the competitive cauldron might be all you need. You can just rack it and we're good to go, but we're going to roll on here. Tobin, this is amazing. In this chapter, Anson, there's quite a bit about Meredith Lawrence development with the competitive cauldron. But with that as kind of the backdrop and with Tobin's comments, what about team chemistry? Do you ever worry about that with young women with the competitive cauldron in place?

Well, absolutely, because what you're doing is you're taking these girls and in the transition period to womanhood, putting them in an environment where it's not really that comfortable. Now, are some people comfortable in it? Yeah, I think Tobin was from day one because she talks about her confidence on the ball and it was extraordinary. I mean, I remember when I was looking at this tape and I can't remember how old she was, but she was young, either a sophomore or a junior in high school. And for some reason, they were playing a Canadian youth team, or maybe it was even the Canadian senior team, or maybe a Canadian club team, I can't remember. But we were watching this tape to look at this Canadian by the name of Kara Lang, and all of a sudden I didn't know Tobin at all, because I hadn't scouted her, I hadn't seen her play yet. And all of a sudden I'm watching this and she nutmegs the player that I have pulled up this video to watch. And all of a sudden I called up Chris Dukar immediately, who was also watching the same thing at home. And I said, chris, did you see that? And he said, yeah. I said, find out who that is for me. And he did some research. And all of a sudden we found out that was Tobin. And for Tobin to have this confidence against basically an elite player, because coming into that game, that was the best player on the field, Karl Lang. And then all of a sudden, to see this skinny little kid at the first opportunity go right through her legs, I was thinking, this is un friggin believable. Please find out who that player is. And just to give Tobin the right kind of tribute. Whatever happened at a youth level, I want to basically bottle and treasure. You came in with this incredible skill set. And so what I'm curious about with you, Tobin, is how did you fall in love with the game and the ball? Because for me, if we can bottle that, that's going to be gold. What was it about the ball in the game that you fell in love with? What were your influences back then?

I. I would love to bottle it up too. I would just say it's like an obsession. It's like you find something that is just like perfect, like it was made for you. I feel like football was just made for me. And even at a young age, it just had me at day one. And then I think in terms of how I continued to fall in love with it is obviously love Brazilian football. And I was obsessed with the style, the joy. It not only fit me in terms of, like, the way that I approach spending time with a ball and trying things and, you know, a certain style, a certain flair, a certain artistry to it, but the culture of just like, the joy of doing it, the love of doing it, the whole package just really like married well to my soul, and I became obsessed with it. I think I had to scour things in order to find football, whether it was on VHS or whatever. During that time, like, I would kill to be that age again with Just the amount of games that are on and the availability of being able to watch football. And so I think from that standpoint, it's something that I was just obsessed with and I couldn't get enough with, and. And it was a real, like, solo thing for me. It was just me and a ball because I didn't grow up with a culture around me to support the types of dreams that I had that didn't even really make sense at that time. Yeah, I wouldn't know how to honestly do that. But I see it in players. You know, I can see it in certain players. Obviously, my best friend, Casey Nogueira, who I went to school with, she completely had the same energy for football that I had. Lindsey Horan, who plays on my Portland Thorns team, completely has the same energy for football. Honestly, I feel like I don't see it enough. I feel like the women's game would be so much further along if it had more of it. I don't think America has the type of culture that's really needed to drive that in a big way. I hope that changes, because it's the most beautiful sport in the world. Yeah. So I think it's just. It was like a love obsession that I think if we had more culture to support, and we, you know, celebrated football in different ways. And I think that, you know, America loves, like, athleticism and, like, being awesome and aggressive and stuff like that, and it just. I think football has. Has a beautiful soul and spirit to it that just doesn't get, you know, celebrated or seen enough. And therefore, you see these kind of machines of soccer happening, and it's repetitive and it's boring, in my opinion.

I tell a lot of stories about you, Tobin, and this one is also right up there with my favorites. I think this may have been your senior year, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we were playing over in Cary, and I can't remember who we played, but we were national champions. And, of course, the whole parents and kids come back to Chapel hill. We're at 411 West Restaurant. Everyone's three sheets to the wind. You know, half the parents are, you know, tipsy. And my guess is maybe half our team is as well. And all of a sudden, I think this was your senior year. For some reason, at midnight, you either texted everyone or called everyone up. And I, of course, wasn't there. But I heard that after you had won the national championship your senior year, that you decided you missed everyone at midnight, and you missed the game, and you called everyone up and under the running lights on Fetzer Field, you guys played a pickup game the night we won the national championship. So for me, this is an extraordinary example of what you just shared with us. This is love of the game, love of the ball, and obviously love of your teammates. And so please confirm, for me, that's a true story.

Yeah, I think that honestly, it's the way I kind of started at Carolina, and I felt like it was fitting for how I ended. I remember even before coming into freshman year, we had orientation or whatever, and I think I missed all of my orientation classes that I had to be going to. And Casey and I were out on Fetzer playing pickup with some of the incoming freshman guys, and we. I think we completely just missed all of that. So we learned that, you know, obviously Fetzer was, like, the crown jewel of campus, and we didn't train on it. So it was like a special place where, you know, you only got to really perform. And we found out quickly that after hours were the time to jump on on the field. Like you said, they had, like, the floor lights on on the pitch. So it kind of created it like this really beautiful, you know, like the dew was on the field. It was, like, always kind of a little smoky. And we would just have epic pickup games out there that we would remove the, you know, field is closed sign, and, you know, we never got kicked off. And so after, you know, we won our national championship or our final year, which is like, I mean, of all the things that, like, you could do, like, you don't get many closures in sport the way that you want them, you know, but just having the most epic closure for my college career with, you know, some of the most incredible people that I spent my four years with, and being able to just go out and enjoy the thing that, like, the reason why we came to Carolina, you know, was to be coached by you and to win national championships and to kind of find, like, come full circle and to just enjoy each other's company and do the thing that we all loved that kind of brought us together and to really celebrate those moments. Because, you know, so much about winning and winning culture is it develops a very strong bond within a team. And I've experienced this, you know, I don't know why. I've been really blessed to play on just winning culture teams pretty much my whole career, but it does create a very, very real, special bond between people that I guess I don't want to, like, compare it to this, but it would be, like, you know, a Very far. This is a far comparison, but it would be kind of like going to war, where, like, you're experiencing all these things with. With people that you don't even experience with, like, your family. Like, you don't experience these, like, real moments that really show, like, a condition or emotion or whatever. But to just kind of celebrate and to just finish that. That whole cycle, that whole career at Carolina, in that way, was just so fitting for, for the group and, and. And for me. Yeah, it was special.

Great story, Anson. I'm glad that you got that out of Tobin Heath. This has been brilliant. Talking about the competitive cauldron. I mean, really, Tobin, when you analyze your career, the numbers are great, but you've never really sought the spotlight. It hasn't been that important to you. It's been more about this, what you just talked about, the soul and bottling it up. Did the competitive cauldron, you know, it doesn't mean sometimes you're not going to make a friend or that type of thing. Did that help shape you at all in any way growing up as an adult?

No, I really separate. I've never really had a problem with the competitiveness, not being friendly, I guess. I think, like, the purest form of sport is, like, where you just go as hard as you can, like, and you still love everyone. I feel like if you're not going as hard as you can, then it's lack of respect and love for other people. So I've never really.

Had trouble with that aspect of competitiveness, I think. I feel like there's a real, like, realness and rawness to competitiveness, in a way, because it's a vulnerability in a way, because if you're pushing yourself to the absolute furthest that you can get, whether it's as a person or an athlete, there's this vulnerability in. You're kind of exposed, your weaknesses are exposed, and you're exposed to failure. And I feel like if you can embrace that vulnerability and that exposure to failure, that's where, like, the growth and the magic happens. And I feel like the competitive cauldron that we're talking about repeatedly exposes you to failure. Like, you repeatedly see your name on a list where you don't want to see it, or you repeatedly, you know, get beat, you know, and you repeatedly get to experience triumph and victory as well. And that could be against the best player, could be against the worst player. You know, I remember some 1v1s that you get matched up with a terrible player, you still have to beat them. And sorry, Terrible players, like, not probably the right word, but.

Some, like, walk on or something like that. There's still a respect in beating someone that you have to do. And, you know, there's also, like, a lot of respect that you have to have to find in failure and in losing. And, you know, I've experienced the greatest of triumphs in the sport, and I've experienced the greatest of failures as well. When you understand that failure is the best thing that can ever happen to you, and when you really lean into that, embrace that and aren't afraid of that, I think that's when the most kind of success and growth, growth can happen. And it's kind of like, contrary to the way that we're wired as humans, you know, we're taught to, like, stay as far away from that point of failure. But in everything that I was taught, especially by Anson, even in all the things that we learn and we hear about repeatedly, in the way that he coaches, in the way that he speaks and approaches life, it is to embrace those moments of failure and to keep getting as close as you can to it. That's where success comes from.

Tobin, I love it because there's an absolute fearlessness in you that I absolutely love. And the way you're expressing it is just absolutely spot on. I remember a reporter doing a story on you, and he called me up and he said, you know, talk to me about Tobin, because, you know, sometimes it's really hard for me to get her to answer this question or that question or even to agree to do the interview. And let's face it, this is an amazing magazine. I don't know if it was Sports Illustrator or some magazine that thought they were so cool, and they were shocked that you were sort of indifferent to even return their calls. They were saying, you know, would you please explain her to me? And I said, well, let me ask you a question. Answer this question for me, and this will help you understand Tobin Heath. And they said, go ahead. Anson asked the question. I said, well, do you know the difference between a pop star and a rock star? And so the person's thinking, and actually, the person gave it a shot to try to answer it for me, and they fumbled it a bit. They didn't really get to the heart of what it is. I said, no, no, no, that's not the difference. The difference between a pop star and a rock star is the rock star doesn't care what you think. I said, tobin Heath is a frigging rock star. You know, she's not gonna genuflect to you. She's not gonna genuflect to you, even though the story you're gonna write is gonna be in this incredible magazine for her, that's gonna glorify her. She doesn't even care about that. Those aren't the elements that basically move her. And what I have absolutely loved about this discussion is you are, as a rock star, digging deep for us, and we appreciate it, because you're right. You've got this incredible marriage with the game and the ball. This is your soul. And you know what? You don't have to explain your soul to anyone. If they don't get it, that's fine with you, because that's not what floats your boat. Tobin, you're extreme extraordinary in this regard, and I am so happy that you're digging deep to share these things in a very real way, because in my mind, you are. You're a frigging rock star. And if people don't understand that, I know it doesn't bother you.

Well, as we push forward and wrap up this incredible visit with you, Tobin Heath, it's been a pleasure for you to open up and talk about your love for the ball. And even your statement about your soul is incredible. And I'm glad that Anson re emphasize that pushing forward because you have that love that is so deep. If I was an athlete, I'd want to play till I was 70. So what about you? How long do you want to keep playing the game that you love?

Honestly, I haven't really thought about it. I always say, I mean, Anson knows this better than anyone because he talked to me to live on a never ending ascension. And I think when he first taught it to me, I was like, well, there is a point where you can't keep going up. It's. It's math, you know, and I didn't really fully understand it until, you know, obviously, like, I continued in my career and matured as a person, but I think understanding that I want to continue giving back to the game in this idea of a never ending ascension. And, you know, I want next year, this year, to be better than last. And, you know, and that's the way that I approach my football, I still think I have a lot to give and achieve. People that know me deeply would know this. But, like, as much as, like, I love football, like, and I love everything that it's given to me, I don't see my life as like a before or after football type thing. My life is just my life and everything that I do for it. I'm gonna have, you know, the same passion and drive. And I think in the same way that, you know, the four years at Carolina I can look back at and I have zero regret. And I am like, that's the best four years of my life. It gave so much to me. I just. I keep going, you know, and it doesn't really. And I think that's how I feel about football, too. Like, I'm just going to one day not play football, and it's going to be a great day. Well, actually, I'll probably always play football, but, you know, in this type of way, and. And I. There's nothing like, I don't know. There's no fear in that for me at all. I have, like, a really big passion for life in general, so I don't really, like, think about it in, like, a way that is like a termination of something. Like, it's going to be taken from me. I don't think about that. And also, like, I feel like I have this, like, present moment slash, like, not present moment awareness, where it's like, you know, each moment in your life, like, all you have is today. So I don't really look too far from the future. I know that people are, like, super into goal setting and stuff like that, but I really only see the end of the day being, like, putting my head on the pillow and like, saying, like, was that a good day? And then in terms of, like, my whole life, it's just like a drop, it's a blank. So it's like, if you can think of your life as just like, kind of like nothing too. It's just you just get to live it. So I feel like sport is just one part of this amazing life that I've been given, and I'm going to enjoy it to whenever the end is, and then I'll just keep going.

I want to jump in as well, because one of my favorites, Tobin, and I'm sure you haven't forgotten this, you and Allie Hawkins and Nicky Washington came over to my house to discuss spirituality. You brought over one of your spiritual mentors, and we had this extraordinary discussion. And the thing that I absolutely loved about it is your genuine care for me and my family. When you initiate this kind of conversation, what you're saying is, you know, I really care about you beyond, obviously, our relationship in the game as a player coach, and even our relationship within a university system, because as you have just finished sharing, there are so many different layers to life that all of us have to explore in the most positive way. And that never ending ascension, the reason it can always be ascending is because of this aspect that's in the middle of all of us, which is our spirituality, our spiritual depth. I will never forget that you and Nikki and the Hawk are in my living room. And, you know, thinking about it, you were probably on the floor. I think maybe the Hawk was in a chair, and I think maybe you were sitting on the floor. And I'm there with my spiritual friends and my wife. And it really struck me your care for me beyond player, coach, because you don't get any deeper than the things we talked about in my living room that day. So I just want you to know from the middle of my heart how much you mean to me beyond the game, because we talked about some very serious things and I will never forget it.

Yeah, that was a special time.

This has been a special visit, Tobin. This has been outstanding. Really appreciate your time. Thanks for all you've done for the game. Thanks for all you've done for the University of North Carolina and also wearing the red, white and blue for the usa. And thanks for being on the Vision of a Champion podcast. You were great. Thanks, Tobin.

I appreciate this and everything. Honestly, there's, like, very. I always say that, like, the world has a million opinions of you and what you do or whatever, but, like, there's like, literally only a handful of people that you actually care about that gives opinions of you and, like, you for sure one of those people. And, you know, you've supported me since. Since day one and have really taught me a lot of the things that, you know, are part of my foundation, you know, as a player and off. So I don't know, like, when I hear people, like, obviously there's like, these new, like, trends of, like, skipping college and going to pro and stuff like that. And, like, you know, whatever. Football's football, like, I want it to be a certain way, too. But, like, if I was ever to, like, get rid of the experience I had, like, I just. I just can't even imagine it, like, not having that experience that I had at unc. So it's like, for me, I'm like, I can't understand not having that, so it's hard for me to understand that aspect. But I just, like, at the end of the day, just have to be, like, so grateful for it and for you. And honestly, too, like, thinking about, like, the Nash team and Carolina and stuff, like, and we talk about, like, you know, coaches just, like, would kill to have culture, you know, like, they just, like, are like, oh, how do we create culture? And it's just like, oh, it's like every time I'm on a team that's like, talking about creating culture, I'm just, like, slamming my head against the wall because it's like, you don't create culture. You have to live it, you know? And like, Caroline is such a great example of it of, like, completely living a certain style and culture. And obviously, like, you were very intentional about that. But the thing that. That I feel like is just, like, so, so powerful is that that culture exists on the national team because of you as well. And I feel like not enough people attribute the. The same type of culture to you because, like, it is identical. You know, the. The.

Thank you. That means the world to me. That means the absolute world to me. Thank you.

Yeah, you're absolutely the foundation of the success of women's soccer in this country, and I know that for sure.

Tobin. Thank you.

All right, that was Tobin Heath, former UNC player and current U.S. women's National Team and Portland Thorns player. If you like this show, one way you can support our work is to subscribe to this podcast on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen and leave us a rating and review as well. This show was edited and produced by Creative Allies. If you're looking for information on full service podcast production, head on over to creative allies.com I'm Dean Linke and we'll see you next time on the Vision of a Champion podcast.

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