Avoiding The Lonely Dad Trap: Why Modern Fathers Are Burning Out in Isolation, with Jon Gustin

All right, John, welcome to the Man Talk Show. How are you doing today?

I'm doing good. How are you, Connor?

I'm, I'm great. I'm ready to talk about dad life. I, yes, I, uh, appreciate the brand that you've, that you've put together because I think it resonates with most dads. Any man that's a father, it's like the tired dad is a very real thing. I remember I came across your, one of your reels for the very first time and it was just like you pouring coffee and I was like, damn, that's smart. I was like, that's my, that's my sacred time as a dad, you know, like get up in the morning. Yeah, turn on the espresso machine and, and have my, uh, my sacred ritual of, uh, making a good, you know, a good espresso.

I love it. Yeah, it's— I think tired is a universal term we can all agree on that kind of sums up parenting, you know. We're all— no matter what phase you're in, you understand that, yeah, we're tired. Yeah, because these kids, they depend on us for a lot of things. And, uh, yeah, coffee is my absolute favorite thing. There's times when I put my kids to bed at night and I just think of how good that coffee is going to be in the morning.

Yeah, I definitely, I definitely, my wife and I, and like, got a nice espresso machine, and there, when we first got it, there are definitely nights where I was walking past it, you know, the kids are in bed and I'm looking at it, I'm like, man, I can't wait to make a nice little coffee tomorrow morning. But it's, it's funny because you, you know, you see those reels of people that are parents talking to, or you see the content of people that are talking to folks that don't have kids. And I know that with one of my buddies, you know, he's like, you can't be that tired. Like, it can't be that bad. What's it like? What's it like? You know, this is after my daughter was born. We had 2 kids and I was like, dude, it is like being in a perpetual state of jet lag where you just chronically feel jet lagged, like you can't catch up on sleep and time. And it's a wild experience, you know.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's like, it's like being a manager of a company and your employees have no idea what they're doing and they depend on you for everything. And it's 24/7 of that. Yeah, pretty much how it is.

Well, on that note, what, what do you think that— what do you think is needed from fathers today that is maybe different from what was needed from our dads or their dads?

The emotional support. I think before it was, you know, financial providing was the sole purpose of a father, and it's definitely an aspect of fatherhood for sure. I think dynamics are changing. I think there's more moms working now, a lot of self-employed dynamics where both are self-employed. That's, that's my dynamic with my wife. We've always been self-employed, ran our own businesses. So I think that aspect, it's going beyond just that. And dads are showing up emotionally for their kids more. They're showing up for, uh, they're just involved more in the mundane tasks, I guess, in the, the, the day-to-day, uh, domestic labor of the house too. So you're seeing just dads that are just more involved, you know. If you go to— I don't know how it is by you, but I think if you go to the playground nowadays, it, you know, it used to be full of just moms, and I see more dads now. Playing with their kids and walking with their kids. I don't know. I don't really remember as a kid if I saw that, but it's definitely a lot more now. So I think they're just— I think we're realizing maybe what we were missing as kids from our fathers. And I think we're just trying to provide our kids with a little more. Than what we had.

What do you think are some of the pillars that you've learned along the way are important? Like you're talking about, I think one of the things that you and I sort of touched on before we even hit record was this notion of being an emotional provider versus just a financial provider. And I think that's what immediately occurred to me is very— that's— I think that's very challenging for a lot of guys because it's not what they were given from their dad. You know, they weren't emotionally provided for from their father. So can you just kind of break down what that means for you? How do you define that, what it looks like?

Yeah, so my dad was great. He, you know, he was a great financial provider. He worked really hard, um, spent a lot of time at work, but, you know, he made sure to go to all my games during the weekend, even after work, would play catch with me, would always support me in those in those typical ways, you know, um, but anytime I was vulnerable or, you know, him and my mom went through a divorce when I was 14, and it just seemed like he always never— he never expressed himself. So I never really knew what he was going through emotionally. He would just say, I'm good, I'm good. It would just, you know, and he just work. So I never got to have that connection with him on an emotional level. Like, hey, you know, you're just— you're going through a divorce of your— of your wife, my mom, of 24 years. Like, how are you feeling? You know, there was none of that, right? So, and then what I was going through, I couldn't express it either because he didn't know how to talk to me about that. Just, I don't know, yeah, it's a hard time. Whatever, you know, we move on. Just focus on what you need to do. So I think a lot of guys kind of grew up like that and it just wasn't, I don't know, it's this whole mentality that, you know, what is not going to serve us. And I think we can easily as men just bury ourselves in like work or some sort of purpose of building something, right? And we don't like to sit in that yucky, uncomfortable feeling of, I don't know what to do. I think we hate admitting that, like, I'm hurting and I don't know what to do. We, we're, we like to fix it. And if we can't fix it, we just run away from it. If that makes sense. And You know, as my dad got older, and now when I talk to him, he's 74 now, I've seen him cry less than 5 times in my whole life, and I think 3 were in the past year. But we really, I really touch on his childhood and like his relationship with his dad and, and I he's really opened up more, and he's 74. So it's just we haven't given ourselves permission to do that and haven't really seen it with our fathers. So it's— you're kind of like retraining yourself. I know for me, I held so much in for my whole entire life, and my wife is the really the one to give the credit to for encouraging me to open up and be vulnerable and assure me that she's not going to hold it against me or view me as weak or view me a certain way. Because I think a lot of men are scared of that with their partners too. Like, uh, she's gonna think the foundation is broken or it's cracking, and she's depending on me to keep the foundation together. And when your wife or your partner gives you permission to say, it's okay, we're all human, like, let's talk about this and get through it. It's such a healing process, and you learn so much more about yourself, and you're able to provide so much more for your children than just showing them that you're just this stone wall of dad, right? And you're never gonna have any feelings. And it's just not serving us. It's not— you see it in mental health, you see it in in men all the time. It's clearly not the answer. And I don't want that. I have a son and I don't want that for him. I want him to be emotionally intelligent. I want him to be expressive. I want him to come to me for anything. I want to support him just as I support my daughter. You know, I don't want him holding all of his things that are bothering him inside and just brushing them to the side because they will come to the surface eventually. Yes.

Yeah, one way or another. And, you either have a— excuse me— a clear track for them to communicate what those things are or they come out sideways. And, well, I think on that note, I agree with everything you're saying and it is something that I see within a lot of guys. I mean, we've got the Alliance community and there's so many great men in there, And I think a lot of the times there's a gap between how we want to— how they want to operate as a dad and what they were actually given and what was modeled for them as a boy. And so, a lot of the times there's this vacancy of emotional communication, emotional providing, emotional stability. And so, there's this internal pressure of I got to get this right. But if I'm really honest, I don't really know what I'm supposed to be doing to build emotional stability within a kid because I didn't see that. I didn't get that. And I don't feel that inside of myself. So how do I give that to my kid? So what are some of the principles or the pillars? Like, what does it actually mean to be a father who emotionally provides for his kids?

Well, most importantly, it's just that open open communication, that safe communication. If your kids don't feel safe with you and you're this authoritarian figure of a dad, and they're just like, I cannot tell my dad this because he's gonna, he's gonna freak out, you know, your fear of your reaction. Because that's how my dad was. He was very— it freaks him out to not know how to fix something. And if I came to him and said, hey, Dad, you know, I've been smoking weed like 5 times a day, and I've also been drinking a lot and making some really bad decisions, he would just, you're grounded, who are you hanging out with, this and that, and tell me, you know, that it's wrong and everything. It's like, I already know it's wrong. But that's why I'm doing it. So there, you know, having, having that open communication and having your kids feel safe with you. Because if, if they don't feel safe with you and they don't feel like they can come to you for anything, then they're going to go to someone else. And that someone else is probably one of their friends with a half-developed brain. It's, uh, nowadays it's, it's these influencers that are also a half-developed brain. And, you know, they're, they're going to latch on to something, right? They're going to latch on to some sort of father figure that they identify with. Well, they should identify with you, their dad, always, because you are, you are the leader of— they're looking for you for guidance, right? You don't want them looking elsewhere for guidance. You always want them to come to you. And I think if we can get outside of just the, that authoritarian figure, you know, um, and get more into meeting them wherever they are. I mean, unconditional love, right? And, uh, judgment-free love that, you know, just as you were a kid trying to figure out life and you have no idea what's going on, that's where they're at. And as they get older, they're going to need you more and more. And also, when they definitely— when they get to teenagers and stuff, there's that push, push away, you know. And I think a lot of dads could get offended by that and not know how to deal with that and not know how to continue to pursue their kid even when they don't seem like they want to be pursued. Your kid always wants to be pursued by you. If they— it's kind of like a reverse psychology thing. I remember being a teenager. Even if they're pushing you away, they still need you and they still want you to pursue them.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more. And I think one of the, one of the big things that I've learned in becoming a dad, but also having been a son, is— and researching attachment— is that repair is one of those pillars. I think about being an emotional provider, and the first thing that comes up for me is the ability to be able to repair. And, what's interesting is that when you look at the research, it's like It's like 55 to 60% of what creates secure attachment is the ability for the two people in the relationship, whether it's a father and son or a mother and a daughter, to be able to repair after some type of disconnection or rupture has happened, whether it's conflict or disagreement or whatever. And I think about our generation and the generation before it, and it's like, man, that didn't really happen a lot. You know, there wasn't a, you know, dads, there's, I don't hear a lot of stories of men whose fathers were like, hey, I'm really sorry about how I treated you this morning. Or, you know, I'm really, I know I got really angry and pissed off and that actually wasn't all right. And I apologize for that. Can you forgive me? You know, we have a vacancy of that within, I think, especially within us as men that we just haven't really seen or experienced that. And I do think that part of our role as fathers is to model that type of emotional stability that leads to repair when some type of rupture has happened. How does that look for you? Like, if you've stepped out of line with how you want to operate as a dad, what do you do? How do you reconcile or repair with your kids?

Apologize.

Ownership.

Yeah, it's— I think a lot of us, you know, when we might even till this day, the relationship with our parents bring something up and still looking for that apology. And when we bring it up, hoping for an apology, we get either they don't remember or, oh, I guess you had it so bad. I was such a terrible dad. I was such a terrible mom.

Right?

And it's, it's just that projection back onto you, and it's coming from somebody who's just still, still trying to figure out, out that emotional intelligence. So, you know, apology is everything, and it's very, very important to note, and I always want to come off as, listen, I, this is my first time being a dad, And I'm doing my best every day to do better than yesterday and to learn, take some things that I learned from older people or my parents that are good and take some that were bad and that I saw. And that's all I have. I'm not a fatherhood expert. I'm not a parenting expert. I don't know if anybody is because everybody dynamic is different. Every kid is different. And we're all just doing the best we can, and we're all human. And that's exactly what dads need to realize, is that your kid does not need a perfect parent. Your kid does not need a perfect dad. They just need somebody doing their best and showing your kids that you do mess up. You know, we want to be Superman, we want to be the superhero, but we're not. We're, we're human, and we're figuring this out as we go. And we're gonna mess up. And anger happens, um, stress happens, overwhelm happens. It's a crazy world. There's a lot of information being delivered to us at, uh, uh, an unrealistic amount that our brains just shouldn't even be— shouldn't even be exposed to. And we're trying to, you know, we're carrying a lot. And dads carry a lot. Parents carry a lot. It's hard, but with your intention, if your intentions are good— and I always say parenting is hard for good parents, uh, the more you care, the harder it's going to be— but the repair, like you said, is just massive. I think, I think we really need to step back in the, in the storm. We when we're in the storm, uh, is the hardest, is the absolute hardest to go to keep that perspective, right? Because you're just, you're working on, you know, you could be burning on fumes, right? And if it happens and you mess up, then just repair it. And I think that means more than anything. I mean, I've seen, uh, relationships in their 40s get repaired with their parents because of apologies. So if you can apologize day of or the next day, we're doing a pretty good job. Yeah, because we're gonna mess up. You're not gonna be perfect. Perfection is unattainable. It doesn't exist in parenting. We're gonna mess up, but Like I said, it's just your intentions every day and to keep showing up every day is, is what matters most.

Yeah, I, I, I actually, I created this like little system with my boy where when, whenever he's, you know, there's rules in the house, like, yeah, simple shit, right? Like no hitting.

Yeah, right.

You know, like simple thing that he's like, yeah, he's this beautiful, big feeling wild, feral little animal. And so, sometimes that's a hard thing. But, I've created this system where if he's crossed the line or I've crossed the line, what we do is we sit down facing each other cross-legged and we hold hands. And, if he's crossed the line, I'll sit down and I'll face him and I'll say, "Hey, what was happening inside of you?" Or, I'll say, What was not okay about the choice that you just made? And we'll have a conversation. And what I really try and reinforce in that moment is like, because I've worked with so many men where their identity is just steeped in shame and shame is like, I am wrong, something's wrong with me. And kids at, you know, a young age can pick that up so quickly. They, they're— they just personalize everything that's happening in the environment. They personalize everything that's happening with them. And so what I always say to him is, you are a good boy. Like, I'll hold his hands, I'll say, you're a good boy, and that wasn't a great choice. And so I'm helping him see. And so now sometimes we're like, he'll say to me, I'm a good kid. That was a bad choice. I'm like, yeah, that's right, buddy. You know, and, and then we have a process of repair at the end where I'll say, you know, is that something that you think you should apologize for? And so helping him see And then same thing if I've lost my patience and I've lost my temper a little bit, sitting down and saying, hey, Daddy lost his patience with you and I was a little loud. And that's actually not okay. It's not okay for Daddy to do that. And so I'm sorry that I did that. And in doing that, I'm trying to model what repair looks like. And it's so funny because the other day, this happened literally like 2, 3 days ago. I'm trying to get him out the door and he's— I mean, it's just not happening. You know, he's like throwing his shoes everywhere, his backpack, you know, not putting his jacket on. He gets outside. I've come back inside like 3 times now to try and get him out to the car. He gets outside, you know, and gets distracted by a stick because he's obsessed with sticks right now. They're, you know, they're like swords and everything to him. And I'm just like, dude, I'm leaving. I'm out of here. You know, like, I lose my patience. I'm like, I get in the car and I go to turn the car around. He's like, no, dad, don't go. And I get him in the car and I'm clearly upset. I'm pissed off. I take him to school and he can feel that, like, dad's upset and, you know, drop him off at school. I love you. You know, I'm still— I'm trying to deal with the fire inside of me, you know, because I feel heated. Drop him off at school. I say, I love you. I give him a hug. I love you too. And then later on that night, I go about my day, work, yada, yada, yada. And later on that night, I'm putting him to bed. And we're just laying there and we're chatting and I read him a book and, and he looks, he rolls over, he looks at me and he says, Dad, I want you to apologize for this morning because you were angry and it scared me. And I was like, oh man. I was like, I, you know, you're right. Daddy was, Daddy lost his patience. I'm very sorry. And, but in that moment, you know, I'm so hard on myself as a dad. Like I think as dads we are, you know, I like like you said, I love that saying, right? It's like really good parents, it's the hardest for really good parents because it's like the more you care about how you are as a parent, the harder we can be on ourselves, you know? And I'm like, you know, in most areas of my life, I'm crystal clean about how I operate and very good. And, and I, you know, I don't have like a lot of self-criticism. But as a parent, I'm like, that's really intense sometimes. And in that moment, I was like, damn, I'm doing okay. Like, I am doing something right. Like, my son just asked me— he feels safe enough with me to ask me to apologize because he recognizes that I was angry and that that wasn't okay and that we know that, you know. And so it was just this, like, beautiful moment where I was like, okay, the system that I've put in place to modeling repair is working great. Yeah.

Beautiful.

Yeah.

And that's such a good example of a real life experience. I think we can see all these, you know, talking heads and all this stuff of kind of, yeah, it comes, it kind of can make us feel bad about ourselves, you know? And hearing real life stories like that. And I also had a moment with my son recently. See, I promoted this whole, you know, basically emotional intelligence stuff. So our house is very emotional, and that, that's not just sadness. It is big feelings. It is getting loud. It is— it's, uh, it's just a safe place to be yourself, right?

Nobody, nobody warns you about the the screaming and shrieking phase that they go through where they just like—

I'm half deaf now.

I know, I know. My daughter went through a phase where anytime we'd go out to a restaurant, we would sit down and within 5 minutes she'd just like start screaming her head off. And I was like, what is this? Anyway, continue.

It's so— yeah, my son can get to a decibel. Seriously, my ears ring now. Like, I've been to a lot of loud concerts, but I honestly think my son's screaming and voice, and with my daughter, has like he's gonna be a death metal, a death metal bro in the future. Yeah, yeah, I'm just waiting. I'm, I'm gonna— I don't know, I'm gonna be in a hearing aid pretty soon, I swear. But he, he had this— I don't know what he was upset about, but he just got red in the face and just screaming. And I, in that storm, because I could have met him with the same energy, and then that's just chaos, right? That's not because he's clearly expressing himself. So he's looking to me to be like, what do I do with this? Right. He's 6 years old. And I was calm. And I'm like, okay. I'm like, buddy. And I, I just calmed him down. I said, look, you're losing it. You're losing control. Okay. Calm down. Like, tell me what you want, this and that. He calmed down. It was the first time he's ever done this. He just calmed down and was like, I'm sorry. And then he just talked normally and we dealt with the situation. And I, I looked at him and I said, buddy, that's, you know, you don't talk to me like that, all that stuff, but I'm very proud of you for backpedaling and stopping yourself from getting to that next level. And there's that. So that's that kind of— I, I showed him it's, it's okay to have those emotions. We're gonna have those. I've yelled before. I've also reacted, and it's just, you know, and then we're, you know, it's always before bed, right? They, they say the stuff that just cuts deep, and you're like, oh yeah, perfect timing. Great. Before bed.

Wonderful. Yeah, good night.

Right before bed. I'm a failure. But like you were saying, you know, just like they're not bad kids for acting a certain way, right? Yeah. You're not a bad dad. You're not a bad parent for you know, losing your cool. Yeah, it's just a bad moment. Now where it becomes what you don't want to do is you don't want that bad moment or that bad day to just go unchecked and then have them remember that as how you were, right? And you know, mostly it's not just one moment, it's that, it's that moment over and over again that they remember of you, of you being. But I swear, like, the apology and the meeting them where they're at, it's kind of like Men in Black. It's just start over, right? Erased from the memory. It's what we remember. I think the moments that we remember as kids are just— I, I think it's just that unchecked. We're looking for that apology. We're looking for that. I think of that, uh, an extreme example of, have you seen Good Will Hunting?

Oh yeah.

It's not your fault. It's not your fault. You know, it's that you don't want your kids to feel burdened by your bad day. You don't want them to feel burdened by, uh-oh, dad's upset. Now we gotta behave or dad's gonna get real upset at us. Like, that's not what you want.

Right.

And that is not just a bad moment. That's continuously bad behavior that's going unchecked. And that's where we don't want to get. But if we're at night going, oh my gosh, I messed up. Oh my gosh, I need to do better, this and that. Like, you don't need to ask if you're a good dad or a good parent. Like, you've already answered that for yourself. Yeah. By being that way.

Well, it's funny because some kids respond so differently to that authoritative demeanor. You know, like, my son is just like me in the sense that when I got that growing up, I, I became way more defiant. You know, it made me be like, okay, like, you know, we're going to— I'm going to, I'm going to cuss, but like, we're going to fuck around and find out. Like, okay, I'm just going to— I'm going to go for it, right? Like, you're going to be authoritative with me. And I grew up in a bit of an abusive environment. And so that kind of set the tone and the standard for me. And my son's very much the same. He's very sensitive. And so anytime that I move into a place of anger or trying to shut things down, I mean, he just becomes super defiant. He's like, okay, we're going to lock horns.

Yeah.

And I'm like, oh, okay, cool. Like, this is— whereas with other kids, sometimes they don't. They become much more submissive and compliant, and it seems like that authoritative behavior is working. So it's funny how different kids just respond differently. But I think the big thing that I've found is like separating, like, you're a good kid, but that behavior wasn't okay, or that choice wasn't okay, or your emotions are right. Like, you're sad, you're angry. That's okay. And when you're sad and angry, you can't do that. Like, that behavior is not okay. That choice isn't okay. And helping to then give them the tools. Like, my son really responds to what's called proprioception. And so, like, really getting him back into the body. And so sometimes if he's really worked up and he's throwing a tantrum, I'll be like, okay, give me your hands. And I'll lock hands with him and I'll just say, like, push as hard as you can. And then, he gets to push and exert all that energy. And after, you know, 20, 30 seconds, it's all out. And then, you know, he's sort of come down off of that tantrum or that anger. So, there's— yeah, I mean, there's lots of different ways. Tell me about the lonely dad because I think this is a very common archetype that I've started to see more and more and more. Like, what's the trap around becoming a father where we can just isolate. You know, I've seen so many dads that just become very, very lonely. What's that all about from what you've seen?

Well, I think it's just, you know, we drive ourselves into the ground. I think it's easy to go into isolation rather than trying to step out of it, you know. Life is busy. When you have a family, you got, you got a partner, you got to show up in a lot of areas. You know, I think there's a quote that says, you know, it's like family, work, social, and you got to pick two, right, to be good at. So, but what we do is we're not even not good at social. We just— it doesn't exist. And it, you know, I think it's just focusing on what really matters in your life, which with that, the male loneliness, I took it as, well, I'm, you know, I have kids now. I have a, I have a job. I have a wife. My hobbies are gone. I don't need any hobbies. I'm just gonna do this, focus on this. These people need me. And that's it. But it's not healthy. It's not very healthy because we need community and dads need— like, my wife is my best friend. My wife is an amazing support. She's helped me through my sobriety. Like, I have, I have it good, and I know that not everybody has that. Um, But also, you know, I need my community of dads. Just like, it doesn't need to be a lot. I don't need to golf every weekend. I don't need to, you know, I don't even need to golf at all. I don't need to be gone for 5 hours. Just an hour, you know, just talking to other people. I, I, uh, started jiu-jitsu back again, and it's great. It's just an hour, 2 times a week. Like, that's That's good. But I wasn't getting that for the past 13 years. You know, I had none of that. I didn't have an hour a week. I didn't have an hour a month. I had nothing. And we just kind of like everything, just, eh, I don't need it. It's fine. I'm surviving, not thriving, but I'm surviving. And I think that's what it is, is we just it's not— it's not important to us anymore. And we, and we think we're grinding through the mud of fatherhood, and that's what we're, we're doing, and that's our most important role, which it is. But you gotta give yourself a little bit of grace, and you gotta give yourself a little bit of breathing room. Because if you give yourself a little bit of breathing room, you can come back stronger and be less reactive to things. So you're going to be You know, you can't burn yourself out because what's that, right? You can't, you can't just run on fumes, right, and be overstimulated by everything your kid does. Like, that's not, that's not thriving in, in fatherhood. So we need like a little bit of break. It doesn't need to be a lot, but you just need to find some sort of community to get yourself out of that dad, the task-oriented stuff, that, okay, dad, partner, here I am. That's it. And every day is grind, grind, grind, and never give myself a break or give myself any grace. And we wonder why we're so burnt out. And maybe we're lonely too, but I haven't even explored that area, you know?

Well, I think the interesting thing is that it also like it robs our kids of having other role models in their lives. And, you know, one of the things that I've tried to be very intentional about is having good men be in my life so that my kid can learn from them. Like my kid, you know, I've got some friends, Casey and Michael, and, you know, sometimes they'll come and support the work that I do because they're in a similar field. But they're really, really good friends of mine and we hang out all the time and You know, and one of the things that I've tried to do is have them be role models for my son. And so, you know, sometimes when they come over, I'm like, hey, can you spend half an hour with him and like, you know, play in the bounce house or like do a puzzle with him or read him a book? And that way, you know, they're getting these other role models that have a different energy, a different temperament, a different way of seeing the world. And I think for me growing up, I was so inspired by specifically one of my uncles, one of my dad's brothers, and he had a huge influence on me. And so I think that when we become like the lonely dads, it's not only us that pays a toll for that. I think that lives in our kids in some ways.

Oh, for sure. Definitely, that's a great point too. And also, whenever, if you've been lonely or haven't been reaching out to your friends or haven't been hanging out with your friends, and then you do, you go hang out with them, you're like, and you're like, oh, I gotta go hang out, uh, I'm getting out of my routine, uh, and then you go do it and you come back and it's like, what just happened?

Fully powered.

And you're like rejuvenated. And it's It was such a good time and such good conversation. And you just feel like, yeah, you poured, you poured a little more into your cup and you come back stronger. And yeah, that's a great point. The other men being examples to your son and to your kids is, is fantastic. That's a, that's an important aspect too. And what we've struggled with too is we are out here, uh, there's no family. The closest family nearby is about 9 hours away, and we see them a few times a year. So we're not in a, in a super tight-knit, uh, community with family at all. So we've just kind of been on this island by ourselves of parenting, and we've gotten used to it. But, you know, we do have developed more friends here, um, neighbors and, and kind of more of a community that we make sure to just kind of reset ourselves with. But, um, yeah, it's just— and I think a lot of other, at least millennial parents, they, you know, they don't have help from the grandparents like maybe some people do. And I know there's a lot of statistics on that of moving away. A lot have just moved away, and then you just kind of get on this island by yourself. And it's, you know, it's also sometimes hard to make friends in your 30s. And, you know, when you move away from your hometowns, you don't have your, you know, you don't have that original group of friends or even friends that you grew up with that know you, they knew you as a kid, they knew, they have stories to talk about and everything. And then you're just placed in this to meet this stranger and you don't really know their background or where they came from. And like, are people being truthful? Are people authentic? And I have like a thing with like trusting people. And so it's just kind of weird. It's kind of awkward. But like with everything, it is an important aspect of parenthood, of fatherhood, of adulthood to find your tribe. You know, it doesn't have to be huge. I look at some people and they have all these friends from college and everything. Another thing is, is me and my wife didn't go to college, but they have these huge— they're always going to weddings and these huge friend groups. And I'm like, man, what's that like? You know, that's cool. I, um, that's great, but so, you know, not everybody has that.

Yeah. And I think, I mean, everybody's going to do it differently, but yeah, I, I also think that sometimes when you become a dad, you know, I've seen this with some guys where the, the friends that they have in their life weren't great to begin with, and then they become a father and they're like, I don't actually know if I want to be spending that much time with those guys, and I don't know if I want them around my kids. Like, they don't necessarily feel like good role models. And so it shifts the way you do relationships, and that can be challenging. Because then, you know, you're in your 30s or you're in your 40s and all of a sudden you're having to make new friends like you're saying. And that can be, that can be pretty tough. What's, what's your take on dad as a friend? Because I think I've seen this a lot where, you know, sometimes it's like, oh, my dad, you know, I want, I want to be my kid's best friend. What's your take on that?

It's a, it's a part of it. It's not the whole thing though. Just like your, you know, your spouse is your friend too, but like they're more than that, right? So I just being your parent or just being your kid's friend is not, that's not being a parent. That's just being a friend. So it's, it, it's like there's levels, you know, your parent first, your parent first, but there is friendship attributes, right? That, you know, as far as that safety of communication, they can tell you everything just as they would a friend. You're able to have fun together just as you would with a friend. You're able to encourage each other just like a friend. You're able to spend time with them as a friend. But at the end of the day, you are, are their parent first. So you also, being the parent first, you— they don't always know what's best for them, and that's what being a parent is, right? We're trying to guide our children in like, hey, these are, you know, uh, this is wisdom. This is what we call wisdom. This is what we call good choices. This is what we call bad choices that have consequences, you know? And we're guiding them in that sense because if they are just off, you know, if you're just wanting to make them happy and just be their friend, then they're not gonna— well, they're not gonna respect you as their parent because you're just their friend. Um, so yeah, there's, there's an aspect of friendship, but if you're just striving to be your kid's friend, that's pretty easy, and that's not gonna be— that's not gonna be beneficial for them.

Yeah. There's a good amount of research on, like, I've, you know, I think a couple people have talked about this, but there's a good amount of research on, like, kids need two things for their development, and it's high standards and high support. And if you can meet that sort of balance, I think that you, you can essentially give kids the development that they need and the, and, and the, you know, the parenting that they need. Now, I think sometimes when we, when we over-index on, I'm just trying to be my kid's friend, then we collapse the standards, you know, because we have a perception that, you know, I'm not going to hold you accountable for certain things. I'm not going to hold a certain expectation or a standard. And I do think that in some part, I think in some, for some people, having any standards or expectations of your kids is seen as a bad thing. But we know that developmentally and research, it's like, no, you actually need to have expectations of your kids. You need to have standards for your kids, and you need to support them in being able to meet those things. And so, yeah, I mean, it is a balance. It is a balance because you also have—

it's all a balance, right? Everything's a balance. Like, we want this blanket statement of do this, this, and this, and that's just not how it works. That's not how life works. It's not how parenting works because there's also the non-balance of not being your kid's friend at all and just being an authoritarian figure, a parent, and never meeting them on that friendship level. So that's not good either. So it's not this or that, it's always like a little bit of this, a little bit of that, little, you know, and it's just a balance. And also understanding your child. Every family has kind of different values that they want to instill. And there's definitely some that we can all agree on. But, you know, every, you know, it's, it's just, there's not like a one way, but there is overlap in a lot of things.

What are some of the everyday little habits or little behaviors or little rituals that you have tried to instill or create within your family. And I think that this is one of those things that oftentimes, like, makes a great childhood. Um, and so I'm curious to hear, like, how— not necessarily the structure, but, like, what are, like, the little things that you try and do on a daily basis, or, like, the little rituals and behaviors for the mornings or nighttimes? Or, you know, I know in your book you talked about, like, the 18 Summers concept, which I always— that always just breaks me. It's like you have one summer with a baby and three summers with a toddler and you got 18 summers in total. And I'm like, oh my gosh.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's a good perspective. But, you know, an honest perspective of that is like some of those seasons are really, really hard. And they're, you know, especially in the beginning, it is just sleepless nights, so task-oriented. There's no really emotional connection with a newborn baby besides like, obviously it's your kid and there's that, that connection of having a human being. But, you know, there, it's just, you got to feed them and go to sleep and, and all this stuff. It's not, a lot of it is not enjoyable, right? It's just really stressful and hard. So, and then we're like, oh, well, yeah, we only have like one year of this, so we gotta enjoy it somehow. Like, but I am freaking toast right now. You know, there's that honest perspective there. And also like, yes, time is moving on and it's heartbreaking and also beautiful at the same time. There's so much to look forward to. And yes, you have 18 years, but those 18 years are to build a connection where they're always going to need you in some sort of way. And, you know, I, I think it's as they get older, they'll need you more. And then the whole goal, the whole point of this whole thing is to have them enter the world and to put some sort of, uh, goodness or light into the world. Like, you're building this human being to be a good human being for the world that's gonna benefit the world in some sort of way. And it's beautiful to watch. And you have 18 years to do that. And then they're not going anywhere after that. If you were the parent that is, uh, worth coming back to or, uh, continuing that connection with. And, you know, I'm gonna show— I'm gonna keep showing up for my kids after they their families. I can't wait if they decide to have kids to be grandpa, you know. There's always something. This is life. So being super concerned with, oh my gosh, the fleeting of time, it's like, yes, the time is fleeting, which is exactly why be here now, right now. Like, this is a beautiful moment. This is all we have, you know. The present is a gift, right? So be here now. Don't, don't focus on the past, don't focus on the future, just be here now. And let's take this ride, you know, and let's enjoy every moment as, as we go on. But to also, uh, what was that— what was the initial question that you were asking?

The, the ritual, like the daily ritual, the rituals, yeah, yeah, things that you, that you and your family.

Yeah, yeah. So I always try almost every day to put like little notes of encouragement in my kids' backpacks and lunches and even to repeat like little affirmations if they have like a big test or something they might be nervous about to really have that affirmation of they're capable, they're smart, you know, they're brave, they're enough, they're most importantly, have fun and enjoy it. Enjoy this, this moment. Um, we always have like little conversations over breakfast. I always make them their breakfast and, uh, me and their mom just sit there with our coffee and we just talk like for 20, 30 minutes over that. And, uh, then we get ready. Um, and then at night there's, you know, we've introduced like quiet time, which we listen to an audiobook, they can draw, we can read and just, we listen to a vinyl record. And it's just this peaceful 30 to 60 minutes before bedtime of just kind of winding down. Reading together at night, just in general, maybe reading a story, talking, lots of deep talks right before bed. So those are like the consistent rituals. But, um, the other ones is just we love doing stuff together. Adventures, hiking, um, road trips are like our absolute favorite thing to do. Vacationing and road trips. And that's another thing, you know, the 18 Summers, the, the vacations. You gotta enjoy the vacation because you're not getting it back. Well, sometimes some of our vacations were completely chaotic. And pretty hard. It was like we said, we're just parenting in a new— in a different location. This isn't vacation. This is— we used to call it a family trip. It's not really a vacation. It's like more work. But, you know, we did it. We did it anyways. And that's just a memory, right? Like, it's not always like this highlight moment of, oh my gosh, the kids were great and we had so many great memories together. Sometimes it's Yeah, they were, you know, we were all stressed out or it was chaotic, right? But that's a moment. Like, that's just part of the journey and that's a vacation we'll always remember. So still do it and enjoy it. And that's, and that's what it is.

Awesome, man. Yeah. I mean, stories, storytime. And I started telling my son, like, just making stories up and my son really loves them. And yeah, you know, oh yeah, half the time he's like at night You know, I'll tell a story at night, he wants a story in the morning, and they're never long enough. That's the new thing that he's in. And like, I could tell him a story for 20 minutes, for 30 minutes, and I'll finish up the story and he'll say, "That wasn't a long story." And I'm like, "Okay, buddy, you have no concept of time." Just like my kids love to be thrown.

Like, I'll throw them on a bed, or we have this big beanbag and I'll toss them. 10 times is not enough. No, 20 times is not enough. And I'm like, Dad's shoulders, they've had enough, you know. But yeah, kids just don't— they don't, um, I wrote about that in the book about how they don't, uh, they don't want the good things to end ever.

Totally.

Yeah, you know, and neither do you.

Yeah. Well, this has been a great conversation. I don't want to have end either, but we're gonna have to, to wrap up. Tell people where they can find your book. You've got The Tired Dad coming out May 5th, I believe. Where can they find you, more about your work, and go check out the book? The book is phenomenal.

Yeah, thank you. The Tired Dad, you can Google it, pretty much you'll find everything, but tireddad.com has all my links. I do a podcast with my wife, kind of a marriage parenting podcast with my wife. The links are up on tiredad.com to purchase the book. And yeah, it's basically 100 reflections, like journal entries from the last 10 years. I wanted it to be real raw and reflective based just on my journey. My story is not a guidebook on parenting at all, but there's definitely words of encouragement for sure. And really, I just want it to be the arm around the shoulder that I wanted when I first became a dad.

Awesome, man. Awesome. Well, we'll have the links for all that in the show notes. You can check it out. For everybody that's listening, do not forget to man it forward. If you know a man that is about to become a dad or is a dad and would value this conversation or the book, definitely fire it off to him. So as always, until next week, this is Connor Beaton signing off. Thank you so much for joining.