Choosing Between Growth or Depth As A Man - Josh Radnor

Think. I think that question, who am I? Might be like the meta. Like the baseline question of how I met your mother.

Yeah.

Like, who am I? And. And he couldn't meet the woman he was supposed to be with until he knew who he was. So I think that's part of the journey of it, you know.

Would you say that that is.

A true statement for most men?

Again, I'm wary of anything overly prescriptive. For me, it's a true statement. But I know I have a lot of friends who got married in their 20s.

And I know a lot of women who got married in their twenties who. They told me all this stuff that I spent the last decade or two figuring out in relationships, out of relationships they had to figure out under the umbrella of marriage. Right. So, you know, you MARRY Someone at 25 or 27, at 37, at 42, at 48, like, you're. You're a different person. Yeah. And the question is, like, are you growing at a rate commensurate with your partner's growth? Are you growing in the same direction? Have you heard that thing like everyone gets three marriages and if you're lucky, they're to the same person?

I haven't, but that's great.

Yeah. Isn't that cool?

That's really good.

Yeah.

I think in part that's why I actually waited so long to get married. I mean, I guess I wasn't so old, but I was. I think you weren't old for a.

Big city, but maybe for like a. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I mean, I grew up in a small town. You know, it's like 30, 000 people.

Yeah.

Smallish, but I was 35, you know, and I think for, you know, marriage rates, they're getting older and older and older, and people are having children later and later and later. And I think for me there, I actually felt this kind of responsibility to like, get my shit together before I entered into that large of a commitment.

Yeah.

You know, and I think a lot of men that I've talked to over the years feel a similar sentiment of like, should I give myself to something, to a commitment that's that large.

Without really having a more full and broader scope of who I am or at the very least give myself time to. To like, mature in. Into who I might be.

Yeah.

That doesn't always need to be the case.

But I had this talk with Ben. Ben Lee, who I. Who I've made a lot of music with, an Aussie songwriter.

And he. He would say, when. When guys would say, like, I want to get my career settled before.

Yeah, that's a big one.

Yeah. And he said every Fortune 500 CEO, like, was married when they, like, got their first loan for their business. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's not like they were at the top of their game and then found their partner. I mean, maybe some of them, but, but by and large, I feel like the right relationship can be rocket fuel on your life.

I agree.

You know, I agree.

My life has definitely gotten a lot better.

Yeah. And I think it makes thing. It's kind of like I don't have any K, but like, I know my friends who've had kids, the first time they hold that baby. There was someone on your podcast that was talking about that. I forget who it was, but they were saying, like, when I held that my child and I realized, oh, like, fucking around time is over. Yeah. Like, I gotta get real serious about everything. Yes. And I think it can be a call to step into a deeper, more actualized version of yourself if you realize that you're not living for yourself anymore, you know, whether it's a partner or a child.

But, you know, I, I, this stuff has taken me a lot longer than it's taken other people. I'm 48, you know, I'm with someone, I'm gonna stay with, with her, but it's, it's taken me a while, you know, and I, and I think there was some sort of meta weirdness of being asked to model this search for so many people, and I wasn't, I, I never, like, God forbid, I never told anyone I love them on the first date. I was like, my joke is like, people say I, I gotta try not to get married on the first date. I had to try not to get divorced on the first date because I was always looking for, like, what was wrong, you know, that was how my mind worked. And that's something I've had to work through, through.

And was that looking for something that was wrong? Was that a, like a byproduct of childhood? Was that something that happened because of dating or.

Sure. I mean, everything. I, I think ultimately I had to accept the fact that there's something in me that wants to be alone.

Huh?

That wants to push people away, that wants to find. I would make a case against people. I always knew where the exit signs were, you know, and this is stuff I really actually needed some help with. Like, I, I, it was right when I, I ended how I met your mother. And I, I was right about to turn 40 and I was like, I have no idea how to be in a really. I couldn't. I had one relationship that lasted three years in my 20s and I had a series of year long relationships, but a lot of times just being single and kind of on the hunt, you know. And there was something about turning 40. I was just getting sad. Like I was getting. There was a sadness that was coming and I realized men who don't look at this like really look at it and curb some of that behavior. It just doesn't age well.

Yeah.

And I was so scared of being just the, the, the older guy in the bar when the lights come on, you know, And I'm like trying to take home some younger girl and I'm like, what am I doing right? You know? And I just didn't. So I, and I always felt like there was something like why have my, my. Why have like all my high school friends except one? Like why they all figured this out? Like why they all, why they all figure that out? Like, I don't, I didn't. Was there a day in school I missed where they explained like, this is how you like have like long term committed relationships.

Yeah.

And I, and I, and I, you know, but was crazy because I'm, I, I'm really good at friendship. You know.

I agree.

I'm really good at being vulnerable and talk. Like I had a skill set that should have been good for this, like transferable over. Yeah.

And I, but they are, they are different beasts.

They are different. I mean friendship is a component of a, of a romantic sexual relationship, but it's not the whole deal.

Yeah.

You know, but I, Something in me was like, I need help, you know, So I reached out. I like, I actually got some help. I actually, I stopped dating for a time. You know, the vag vacation. Yeah. I just got real. Like I started to look at the parts of me that were self, you know, defeating or, or just didn't. Because there was a point where I was like, do I want to be in a relationship? Like maybe I'm just like a confirmed bachelor. Like maybe, you know, that used to be a code for something else. But maybe I'm just someone who will have a series of relationships and that will be my life and I'll have. But, but I, I did want to do it. You know, there's a thing of like I, I'm really interested in life. I'm really interested in experiences. Like, oh, I've never done that. Let's do that. You know, I don't want to do everything there's certain extreme sports I have no interest in.

I see, like, the people going through the small crevices in the cave, like, 400ft underneath.

No, no, no, I don't. No interest. No interest. No. None of that. But. But in terms of, like, life checklist of not, like, quite a bucket list. It's not like, you know, have to go to the Amalfi coast or whatever, which I would love to, but it's more like the big things. And I had all these relationships that were really exciting. Right. Really cool people I had. You know, I would only be in a relationship with someone if I thought they were great, but it was like I couldn't take that next step. But I started to look and say, okay, I've had all these experiences. I've had all this professional success, but the thing I really haven't done is. Is gone super deep and said, I'm here and I'm not going anywhere. One thing I loved that Martin Shaw said. He might have said it on your podcast, or it might have said it on another one, but he said, men around soul work, we have to trade at some point. We have to trade growth for depth.

Yes.

And, you know, that just landed on me so much. Like, at some point, I just didn't want to amass, you know, like I said, I didn't. I'm not interested in stuff.

Yeah.

I mean, I would like my career to keep, you know, blooming, but at some. I always wanted, you know, a friend of mine really love lovingly reflected back to me. He said, I feel like when you're at a crossroads, even if it's at the 11th hour, you always break towards depth, you know, and it's true. Like, I. I want to feel that my life is. Is more about depth than growth.

Yeah.

You know, or, you know, take another analogy. It's kind of like I don't need to own all the land, but I want to be a good steward of the land I have. You know, I want to till it. I want it to be fertile, and I want to. So I'm in the process of getting more of that, clear of what my land is, you know, and how to be a conscious gardener of it. But it's taken me a while.

I think that that is. I'm with you, that whenever my life has presented me with those inflection points.

Yeah.

That I have had a predilection towards, just, like a desire to move deeper.

Yeah.

And I've never really known what it was or where it came from. And maybe I Never will. And maybe that's not the point, but that has been a part of my North Star because I've seen what the ascension oriented growth obsession has done for a lot of people.

Yeah.

And.

When I've pursued that, I've actually never really felt.

Fulfilled.

Yeah.

I've never felt satiated.

Yeah.

And it can be. I can, it can be really exciting. I can really get into that part. And I, I always feel this tension between this part of me that's just like, go for the growth, go for the growth. You know, like, go after. Build things as big as possible and do whatever the fuck it takes.

Yeah.

And I have that living within me.

But.

But there's this other sort of like, hand on the shoulder that just says, go slow, go low.

Yeah.

You know, and that, whatever that is, whether it's my grandfather or the older mentors that I've been so blessed to have in my life, that voice is always there and I've always listened to it. It's like I've been fortunate enough to have some elder thing in my life that's pulled me more towards that depth.

Yeah. I think it's probably. We never talked about it directly, but I think it's probably part of our connection is an attraction to that depth. You know, I will say also that another kind of poison kind of thing that's laced into success and fame and money is that no one asks you to drop this stuff.

No one says, like, you're, you're. You're allowed to stay in a suspended adolescence much longer if you have that stuff. Like, and, and to me, I just, I kind of felt like I wasn't busted. I just, I turned myself in. I was like, you got to get me off the streets, you know?

So when you say no one asks you to drop that stuff, what are you referring to?

I mean, being unmarried and struggling with relationships at 40 in Hollywood. Successful.

Right.

I don't know. Like, maybe some people might say, like, what's going on with that guy? But most by and large people don't.

Yeah.

You know, and you can, you can hide out there for a long time and it's not even any sort of slam against. And I was that person. Like, I, I just knew that the life that, that felt like my heart was yearning for was.

I just had to drop a lot of that stuff. And I had to say, you know, I think that part of an adolescent idea is I can have everything.

No limitations.

No limitations. So part of my addiction, my addiction kind of template was variety and options.

Yeah.

I Wanted all options. I wanted to be able to date every woman that I was interested in. I wanted to live every possible storyline. And I think part of my growing up was acquainting myself with the truth that getting older is a huge part of getting older is loss.

That there is that, that. You know, I recorded this album in Nashville that's going to come out later this year called, and it's called Eulogy. And the reason I called it Eulogy is because each song is like this mini funeral for this part of me that, that served me up to a point and then has to be kind of retired and buried and also kind of kissed on the forehead and honored. Like, I don't want to say these parts weren't they. They helped me get across the river. Right.

You're not going to have like the angry Jewish funeral.

No, I mean, why, why do that? Why do that? But, but I felt.

You know, just acquainting myself with the inevitability of, of loss, like grief and loss and to say, I was just talking to a friend of mine.

Who has now a 10 year old kid and he said, I'm. There's a part of me that I could miss the baby or the toddler, but then I'd miss this cool 10 year old that I'm living with. Right. But there's grief in people getting older. There's grief in our getting older. There's grief in, oh, I'm choosing to be with this one person. That means I, I'm not going to be with these other people. I'm not going to live these other lives. But at the same time, if I, if I just stay in the world of options and variety, there's grief in not going deep and not, not, you know, having that soul expansive experience.

Yeah.

So I think that in some ways you have to choose, like, are you interested in growth or depth? You know, and, and you know, I end up making even career decisions. I'm always like, I should have said yes to that thing that was more growth oriented. But I was like, but I didn't think it was good. It was like, well, but it was a big hit. You should have done it. You know what I mean? But I end up, I almost feel like I had this very big mainstream success, but my heart is like an indie artist who kind of like really just tries to choose integrity at every turn. But I think you don't, I don't think it's so binary. I don't think you have to, to have, you know, they're certainly they're not exclusive. No. There's certainly great artists that seem to be in their integrity, and people find them, and I. I would love more of that, you know, But I. But I do feel like I'm constantly. That. That is the question. Growth versus depth for me in this moment, you know, if I'm weighing a decision.