Danica Patrick: Choose Yourself (& change your life)

Maybe what it comes down to. And we're really going there, is that I processed this family stuff with dad and then with mom, and I realized in the end that the stuff with mom was actually holding me back more than what appeared to be more obvious with my issues with my dad, which was he's just really hard on me and really tough and emotionally unavailable. And I just kept attracting those kinds of guys. And what I realized is that it's actually because I abandoned myself, that I stay in the pattern. And when I choose myself, I don't choose those patterns anymore because they're hurtful.

All right, Danica, welcome to the Man Talk Show. How are you doing?

I'm good. Good. How are you?

I'm doing great. Yeah, it's. I mean, it's nice to have you on my show after I got to come and chat with you on yours. That was a blast.

Oh, man, it was so good. People. People love that episode.

Yeah, it was interesting. I was like. One of the clips that you post on YouTube got a ton of traction. I think we were talking about porn. I was like, holy shit.

Yeah, exactly.

I was like, that's some good. Some good marketing you got going on there.

Well, it's. You know, I feel like the Internet is this. It's a. It's a home for taboo questions. You know, it's a home for. It's a home for questions that people don't really want to talk about because they can observe in privacy and. And get answers. But, you know, whether it's porn or erections or cheating or whatever the thing may be that is hard to talk about, the Internet is a safer place. It's an anonymous place.

I like that. I like that.

That description of it. And, yes, those are some of the things that we definitely talked about. I don't know if we'll be talking about porn interact conversation today, but who knows? You know, probably not.

I don't watch porn, and I don't get erections, so.

Oh, man. We're off to a good start here. I like this. Okay, well, let's. Let's dive into the question that. I mean, I think I'm six or seven hundred episodes in, and I have asked every single guest for, like, the last five years, which has been phenomenal. So tell us a story about a defining moment in your life that made you who you are today.

Well, man, it's pretty tough to narrow it down. I mean, I think probably a lot of people can understand that there are always lots of defining moments, and I think they can you know, we talk about big T, little T traumas. There's big decisions, little decisions, but they all matter. You know, they don't. They're not the decision to get up. And I'm going to answer your question, but this is what's on my mind first, is that, you know, the decision to get up and go work out is a small decision, but when you start doing that consistently, that becomes a different life and a different reality for you versus the one where you don't choose yourself and you choose something else or you do something that's a little less ambitious. So, you know, it could be small as that, but then it can also be really big ones. So I guess probably the most. Probably the best and biggest decision that I have made in my life, and, God, you know, it just didn't really feel like much of a decision to me. But to go to England when I was 16 and race was probably the most important thing that I did, because eventually it led to a guy named Bobby Rahal seeing that and understanding my level of commitment and hiring me. And then, you know, I did a couple years of a lower formula with him, and then he put me in IndyCar, and I just about won my first Indy 500. So that kind of really, like, solidified me. Okay, I'm here for a little while, at least. So I'd have to say that choosing to go to England was probably the most defining decision that I've made in my life for a cascade of reasons, but the biggest being that it got me a ride in IndyCar. And it went pretty well, I would agree.

I think it. I think it went better than pretty well. Yeah. You. You dropped out of high school. Yeah, at one point.

Yeah. Yeah, that's when I did it at 16. So, again, a cascade of things happened. Right? Like, I got my GED. I dropped out of high school when I was 16. I moved to England. I. All kinds of things. Right. But, yeah, I did. I. I did not graduate high school the traditional way.

Well, I mean, it's. It's wild. And I'll just say in researching you.

I mean, the Internet's a wild place. I think it's. At some point, I came across some stat that, like, you don't like popsicles or something like that. I don't know if that's true or.

Not, but there was some girl. The last popsicle thing that came up was. It was something A few years back, this girl had some. She was, like, a really big fan of me. And that was when I was dating Aaron and it was something about some. She was like coming out of anesthesia and she was very out of it and disoriented and she was talking about, like loving popsicles and talking about us in some capacity. And so I responded to her on Twitter and then had like hundreds of popsicles sent to her. So that's the only thing I can think about with popsicles. But it wasn't that I hated them.

That's so funny. That's so funny. Yeah. But I thought that was interesting that, you know, you, you left high school to go and pursue.

You know, your, your passion and what you loved.

Was that a challenging decision or did you just know? Like, was it something that your parents were, you know, against? Were they for? How did you, like, how did you make that decision at 16? Or did you feel like it was made for you?

Yeah, kind of. Like I said, I say the biggest decision, but it didn't really feel like a decision. It didn't.

It just felt like the clear path. It felt like what I needed to do. I mean, who wouldn't get excited at 16 years old and not have to go to school anymore and live in ocean away from families and drive cars? Yeah, exactly. Like, it was. This was not like a far fetched decision. That was pretty exciting. But of course there's leaving high school, there's. There's just the, you know, the stigma of that or the potential.

Risk in that and having that kind of a trajectory.

When we're a society that generally values school quite highly.

So, yeah, I mean, it. But it didn't feel like a big decision to me. It felt like what I needed to do. I mean, my parents were emotional and I know it was hard for them, but. Sure, it was hard for my sister too, but. But it wasn't hard for me to decide to do that. I was excited. I was like, no tears, heading off with my bags, and they're all like, I was excited.

That's awesome. So, you know, I think one of the things that I've found interesting about you is your sort of competitive spirit. You know, I watched a bunch of your interviews. Um, I've listened to a bunch of your shows, and you really have this like, beautiful depth of competitive nature within you. That, that I think is very admirable. And I'm curious as to whether you would attribute that to, to environmental. Like, is that something that was nurtured within you? Is that something that was just sort of like, you know, you came online and you're like, yeah, I want to compete in this life you know, I want to see what's possible. Like, where would you say that's come from?

I can remember being a kid and like even something, something like small and competitive, the phone would ring and my sister and I, I didn't want to go get the phone. So I would count 3, 2, 1 to like race to the phone with no intention of going to the phone and she would take off and go get it. So like that's an example. I'm thinking, I'm pretty sure that predates racing at all.

So I, I, it would be impossible to say. It's not both. Right. It's, you know, what we practice and think about, we get better at. And so I have to practice it a lot. But I don't think that, I think that there are just generally people in life also that it's not in them. Like I have beautiful friends that have no interest in competing. Like, no interest. Like, it's like they're, they are drawn to yoga and hiking and you know, just stuff that's non competitive. And yeah, I think I've got a lot of it in me. I mean, call it bullshit or not, but I mean I'm an Aries, so I'm actually a double Aries. So if you believe in any kind of like level of astrology, I have a tremendous amount of fire in my chart. So it's in me to push and compete and be driven and a leader. So I think I have a lot of things going for me that would lead to this. But I think if we're gonna you chicken or the egg, I would say that it's in me. And then I cultivated it continuously, which kind of leads into a fascinating area that I'm curious about that we've talked about before, which is the masculine and feminine. And you know, I have realized now, like it's like a position to be in like that competitiveness also like with the competitiveness comes like some level of control and some, there's assertiveness in it. There's direct, there's short, there's, there's, there's concise, there's logical, there's logic in it. And, and when I get into those spaces, like I'm very masculine, I can do very much, very well at doing a lot of things and directing. Um, and I heard a great thing the other day, because again, this is such a curious topic for me because I have not, I not only have a lot of like that competitiveness and fire, but I've cultivated a lot, is that sometimes it's Just a matter of going, today I'm in my masculine. That's what I'm at. That's where I'm at. And today I'm in my feminine. And I. It's very easy for me to identify those positions, actually, now, which feels really nice. It's just such a default to go into the masculine, which is just me having, again, so much. So much of that. But, yeah, it feels good to be on the other side of it, too. I mean, as much as I can take over, just love to not have to make decisions and call the shots and be in charge and book and order and do all the things. Like, it's nice to just sit back, too.

Yeah. I think what's interesting is that we, you know, I think our culture and our society is in a time where a lot. I think a lot of women have a lot of masculine energy, and there's a lot of women out there sort of quote, unquote, crushing it. And, you know, doing. Doing all that. All that stuff. And it's not necessarily bad or wrong or good or any of those things. I think it just is. And what I find to be curious because I, you know, I have a lot of women that write to me and ask me questions, and I get questions of, like, how do I get out of my masculine sometimes? And, you know, what is my. Or I have men that write me and say, like, my partner's got a lot of masculine energy. How do I deal with that? You know, like, what do I do? So I'm. And let's go down that vein of.

Oh.

You'Re like, go on.

I mean, I listen to. Here's the thing. I think that there's maybe a misconception that women don't listen to things like man talks. Right. Like, women don't listen to even some people that are like, I interviewed this guy named Rich Cooper, and he is kind of quite divisive and quite chauvinistic by nature. Like, that's how he presents. But I listen to it because I want to understand men. So there's. I'm not surprised that there's a lot of curiosity by women, because how else do you get to know men? And that's usually where you're trying to figure things out.

Yeah, man. I think. I think there's a. Right now is a very interesting time that there seems to be a lot of confusion, you know, just a tremendous amount of like.

So is it. Do you think that. Do you think that there's been a phase where women have stepped into their Masculine by being.

By working more, by taking charge, by having. Making their own money and doing their own things and whatever. All those things that attribute to sort of like growing in their own confidence and their own self worth. Do you think that that came first? And now is that. And so that's kind of got like its awkwardness and then now it's a little bit of an awkward phase where men are trying to understand how to get into their feminine in a healthy way and be more available.

Emotionally and communicative and.

That there's a little bit of a messy period going on with men. And in that messy period comes a lot of triggering.

I would say that.

We historically have, you know, in the last few hundred years, I would say that we tried to go all in on certain gender roles, stereotypes, et cetera. And now we're living through a time of an attempt at rebalancing, you know, that in the last 10, 20 years, women have tried to, you know, like you said, women have been stepping into that more masculine orientation of like, well, what's it like? You know, I'm gonna. I'm gonna take on these roles, these responsibilities. I'm gonna be the breadwinner at home. I'm gonna go build the business. I'm gonna go, you know, be the corporate executive. I'm gonn traits. And for men, I think there's a lot of men that have sort of stepped out of that, and there's just a reorientation that I think is going on. And I think for both men and women, it's very confusing. You know, I think it's very confusing for a lot of men and women who are trying to make relationships work, especially never mind in the work environment, but like sexually at home, where, you know, I think a lot of the times, while our externalized roles have changed, I think that a lot of people's sexual desires have still stayed the same. Like, I've. I put out a poll on my Instagram, I'm going to come back around because you just did a little switcheroo and you interviewed me right now.

But I find it actually funny with people that have their own podcasts, it becomes a lot of a dialogue at times because it's like you're so used to asking questions, but also you're an expert in your field, so, you know, it's. It's so. Okay. So I'll try not to do it too much, but. No, no, no, I'm curious.

This is what makes conversations exciting, right? It's not just like, I think the one Way interview style is dying. You know, I think that, that that style is dying. Like people want to hear a genuine conversation.

Yeah.

But I put up this poll recently where I, I asked men, how dominant do you want to be in the bedroom on a scale of 1 to 10? And then I asked women, how dominant do you want men to be in the bedroom? And, and because I had heard somewhere from this like former escort onlyfans scientist who now does like relationship data research through her online following, which is fascinating, that there's a discrepancy between the amount of women that want a sexually dominant man and the amount of men who want to be or think that they should be sexually dominant in the bedroom. And so I put this poll up on my Instagram and sure enough, the response came back that there were fewer men who wanted to be sexually dominant and really enjoyed that than there were women who wanted a sexually dominant man. And so there was this.

Women want, women want a dominant man and men don't want to be as dominant.

Yes. Yeah, I thought that was fascinating. I think, you know, I think it was sort of like this.

Indication in some ways. And of course this is like an extrapolation on one survey and polling on my Instagram, but it was still like 2,500 people.

Yeah.

So that's a, that's a decent subset.

Good. It's a good, it's a good survey.

I kind of thought that that was like indicative of like what is happening within modern culture, you know, that gender roles have become much more fluid and you know, there are a lot more women who embody this sort of masculine essence and there's a lot more men who embody a more feminine oriented essence. And it's again, it's not a bad or good thing. I think it's just we haven't had the conversations, I think as a society to catch up to the change that's happened. You know, like I've started to put some content together around how 42% of American households, women are the breadwinner. So they're actually making more than their male counterpart. And that dynamic, I think is shifting a lot of relationships subsequently. Right. But I'm curious to come back to you, like, as somebody who talks about having an abundance of this sort of hyper competitive, you know, more masculine oriented energy. 1. How did that show up in your career? Because you're like, you're racing, you know, like you're, you're doing something that is just like.

Pretty, pretty masculine in essence and you know, it's dangerous and etcetera how did that show up in your career? You know, for, for better or for worse? And then I want to talk a little bit about how you navigated that in your relationship, because I think it's a question that a lot of people are grappling with.

I mean, in my career, I remember being like 14 years old and sitting down with someone that was going to help me with my career financially and direct it. And he's an older gentleman. And I said something along the lines of like he maybe asked me what I want to do or something along those lines. I mean, it was just a long time ago. I just remember generally what happened, which was I answered with I think.

And I just remember he told me, when you answer that question, don't say you think, say you know, tell, say what you want, don't say you think. And I was like, okay, I'm 14. So I, I, it's again, it's been cultivated so much, this sort of like clear direct.

Nature. So in my career.

I mean, I just had no problem standing up to anybody. I remember being in go karting and I was probably 11, maybe 12. Somebody pulled out in front of me on the track and slowed me down and they should be cognizant of that and practice and come out after. And so he came in the pits and got out of the go kart, still had my helmet on. He came in behind me and I went up to him and I started yelling at him like no one told me to do that. I just did it. And I think this guy was like the president of a really big company called like Klein Tools or something. Like he was, he was a, he was a full on adult. And so I, I, I.

I've just always been very.

I've been very comfortable to speak my mind.

So that showed up as fire on the racetrack, as like me being confrontational. I'm sure if you deep dove enough, you saw me yelling at people or kicking things or getting upset and that was, you know, look, that's not all of me, but that's part of me, you know, and people see me on TV and they think I'm a, or not nice. It's like, all right, well, you know what, that's true. I mean, there is a part of me that's like that, but there's so many other parts of me too. So like with racing, people were exposed to a narrow window of my personality and.

And I, and I still think I showed a lot more personality or had a lot. I felt comfortable to show more personality than most, but whether it be through photo shoots or interviews or whatever the things I was doing. But it still was just sort of oriented around racing, which is all about, it's all about aggression and confidence. And so it came naturally to me.

I thought I was envisioning with the go kart story that there was going to be like a, like a headbutt with the helmet, you know, I was like, oh, she's about to lay it on this dude. Like, here we go.

Yeah, not quite. No. I'm trying to think if. I don't think I ever. Don't think I ever did anything with my helmet or nothing. I've done. I've, I've thrown things before, not my helmet, because they're very valuable.

Yes.

And I've kicked things and I've grabbed people, but I, I haven't thrown my helmet or. But it had butted anyone.

I rode motorcycles for a little over a decade and I saw guys that, you know, when they screwed up, that's, that's what they would do. It's like the helmet would get thrown. And I always found that I was like, why would you do that? Like, why would you throw your. Like, that's the thing that you've spent so much time, like curating and money and you know, like, anyway, so competitiveness, it's helped you, you know, I would imagine it's, it's helped you in your career. It's part of your personality, I think. You know, I think from the outside, I think it adds a certain, like, appeal. I'm sure it's contradictory in, in some ways, you know, some people might think negatively of you. Some people might love that part of you that like, you're in this male dominated space and you're, you know, you're not afraid to be spicy and like, let it loose and, you know, let the heat come in. What about in your intimate relationships? How has that part shown up and how have you navigated that part? Having a seat at the relational table.

Oh, man. I mean, I did used to be much more sort of fiery in an argument. Like, and I think sometimes it was a matter of wanting to be heard at times too. Like, if I talk louder, maybe you'll get. It.

Just does not work.

But I'd say it's been quite a few years. And, and you know what's interesting, I've really been fascinated within relationships because, like, they've all been quite different in nature of how I, how I show up. Like, you know, one was very, you know, big arguments and then another One is zero. Argue arguments. And then another one is, like, you know, a lot of, like, consistent bickering back and forth. And then another one was just, you know, like, confusion. And then, you know, like, I feel like my. I've not been. I've not shown up or not been the same in every one of them, which has led me to wonder, like, what's my nature? You know, what's me in. In. That's consistent in all of them.

And. But there have been definitely, definitely fire. But it's. I mean, I'm vulnerably saying, like, it's not uncommon for me to hear from men that.

You know, I'm very masculine. Even some have said, you're more masculine than me.

And I hear that.

What's that like, to hear, like, as a woman, to have a. Have a guy that you're dating in a relationship with like, oh, you're more masculine than I am.

Well, that just makes me think, how do you. Why. Why do you like me? Like, how do you. How can you like me? I mean, like, doesn't seem like you would want to. You would like me, then. So it feels kind of like a total shutdown. Like, it feels like, so. So problematic that I'm not sure what we're doing.

That's how I take it at first, for sure. You know, again, I have some questions, like we talked about, about, you know, with men. Is it. Is it that I'm triggering, actually? And, you know, is. Is it more? Is there some of that going on?

But, yeah, that. That definitely shows up. So I. That's what leads to my deep curiosity around masculine, feminine. And.

Yeah, I'm getting. I'm starting to understand myself better, at least. But it's something that's definitely shown up in relationships.

What do you think, or what do you feel that you're. You're actually wanting in those moments? Because I would imagine that. Because I'm just extrapolating out, I can hear people listening to this podcast that have gone through that exact circumstance. Right. They're in a relationship. I hear guys all the time, like, you know, my wife or, you know, this woman I'm dating has got, like, a lot of masculine energy or she's super assertive or she's, like, a little combative. And when those moments happen, I would imagine sometimes it's when conflict is happening or there's a disagreement.

What. What do you think that you're actually wanting to hear in those moments? Because obviously, oh, you're more masculine than me, or you're being, you're so in your masculine. That's. That's probably not the best way to go about it. What do you feel like you're actually wanting in those moments?

Well, I think it always boils down to connection. Like, you're always wanting. You just want someone. You know, I've always, like. It's like I. You just want someone to have your back no matter what. You want someone to love you no matter what, even though there are. You are tough at moments. Like, you want someone to love you extra because of it. Like, my girl's a badass. Like, she can show up when she needs to show up, but in an argument, it's like, you're looking. It's like this dance between softening, right. And so I've also been told that, like, I'm quite guarded and that. And I don't feel like that. I feel like I'm super honest, I'm super transparent, very vulnerable. Like, I feel like I'm doing that. But maybe there's some, like, hardened aspects in my heart, or I think maybe what it comes down to, and we're really going there, is that, like, I. I process this family stuff with dad and then with mom, and I realized in the end that the stuff with mom was actually holding me back more than what appeared to be more obvious with my issues with my dad, which was he's just really hard on me and really tough and emotionally unavailable. And I just kept attracting those kinds of guys. And what I realized is that it's actually because I abandoned myself that I stay in the pattern. And when I choose myself, I don't choose those patterns anymore because they're hurtful.

So when I realized that I was acting like Mom, I realized it in this sort of, like, I. Epiphanies come in, like words or phrases. And so for me, it was that I've had to have my own back my whole life because I was doing to myself what my mom was doing to me. She abandoned me emotionally. Not on purpose. It's just how she was taught. I mean, I'm sure she did far better than what was done for her, but it still wasn't enough. And so it still wasn't fully supportive. And so abandoning then I was abandoning myself emotionally, too. I was doing the same thing. And so. So, yeah, that. That was like a really big epiphany to realize that I was doing that. And so this idea of having to have my own back all the time is probably something that still has quite a bit of work to do because I just am not sure is if someone's going to stick around. Not sure if somebody's going to be able to have my back. Are you going to have my back when I'm. I'm really in it, When I'm really tough, when I'm really, like, stressed out, or when I'm really on? Like, are you gonna do. Are you gonna be there even though it might be triggering? Are you gonna have my back when I'm falling apart? Because guess what? I fall apart too. Like, are you gonna be there? Are you gonna be there when it sucks? Are you just gonna give up? Like, and then it actually puts me in a place where I provoke that sometimes. Like, I put it out there. Like, hey, you know, if it's going to be like this, just go. And, like, that's not good either. Like, I'm projecting what I'm afraid of. So it's this really, like, it's a fine dance.

Yeah. I mean, it's. I think that's the kind of. I've said this before in some of my content, but, like, it's. The seemingly insidious thing about neglect, you know, is that when we've experienced neglect growing up.

We oftentimes don't even see when we're repeating that pattern in our lives as adults. Right. That we actually. Children who are neglected become adults who neglect themselves.

Yeah, exactly.

Right. And. And so to be in contact with that is very, very hard because we, you know, to be in that sort of feminine orientation of surrender and softness and all the things that you were describing before, I mean, I would imagine that would be very challenging, you know, not. Not only because of the career and, you know, it's not that there was a sort of a place for it within the career, but like, within a relationship to kind of trust somebody, to, you know, that if you're going to open up, that you can trust the other person to really stay in that space with you.

Yeah.

Yeah. Interesting.

And I've had a lot of people cheat. Like, I've had a lot of bad experiences, too. So, like. And then I get into that weird thought of, like, did I manifest some of this stuff? Or, you know, like, so it's like, I have a good reason to be concerned and have my own back and be a little bit protective and guarded.

Or did I make that stuff happen? I don't know. I don't know.

I know it's like, it's hard to separate the, you know. Yeah. The contribution that we play in infidelity versus the other person's, you know, Choices and actions of, you know, their responsibility.

How has it been? One, one last question. I'm going to circle back around on, on the career just one last time and then I want to move forward. And it was interesting when I was researching like, I feel like you've talked a lot about your career and many people have talked about, you know, if people want to know, they can go and dig into it more. I'm actually more curious about the. Who you are behind the accomplishments and you know, hence all the questions that we've been getting into.

I love it. Oh, I love it. Time's flying.

I'm curious about this, this part of you that has been very like, you know, in the limelight, in the spotlight. What's it like to, to date and be in relationship as you know who you've been, right? This very successful female driver in sort of like more masculine, male dominated space. What's it been like for you to date and have all of your out there?

Well, I can tell you that it never goes away. Like, you know, exes that play sports and you know, it just never goes away. So I feel like, like a relationship being normal, like clean, you break up, you just don't see them again, whatever. That doesn't happen. Like you see them on tv. So. So I feel like that's one thing that comes as a, as baggage when you're in this position. But also it's like, you know, even dating can be challenging because it's like you're going about your life and you're doing things and you're having experiences, but you have to be so careful because like then it's going to be perceived poorly if you date too many people, right? Then all of a sudden you can't. What's wrong with me? Right? What's wrong with Danica? She can't another guy. And so, you know, it makes you kind of go, maybe I just don't share so much. And you gotta be really sure before you do share. So.

But I will say that, you know, I think some people get pretty triggered by social and they get triggered by popularity. And you know, other than the fact that I think it creates a lot of options, I think that can be the danger zone of being someone popular and out there. Is that.

Appropriately assumed? So is that, you know, there's a lot of options, right? So for everyone. So you know, for me or also for someone else that I'm dating, if they're in the, in the spotlight is there's a lot of options. And so that can feel A little threatening, but the rest of it and whatever people have to say about me or say about it or. I really don't care. I never really have. It's just. I just don't. I don't put anything out there that I'm not totally cool with. So. So I'm good with all that stuff. But, yeah, there are a few. Definitely a few hooks. But then there's also some great things, too. Some really amazing experiences and other people with financial flexibility and time. And so there's also other cool things, too.

Yes, I would imagine I was going to go down the path of the choice paradox. The more optionality that we have, the harder it is to choose. And I think, you know, over the last couple years, I've had the fortune of working with people like famous rock stars and rappers and athletes and stuff like that, and it's a very interesting quagmire to discuss, you know, of, like, well, I have all this option, you know, there's this woman and that woman, and, you know, or there's this guy and that guy, and they. And they like me. And how do I choose? How have you navigated that? Because I think that there's a very real subset of people, and it's not everybody, but I think there's a real, very real subset of people, like on online dating, for example, who just get so much attention. And I think the data kind of backs this up, and that amount of attention, whether it's a man or a woman, can. Can lead to not, you know, not wanting to commit or not going deep within the context of a relationship. How have you battled that and made sure? Because, you know, I mean, your podcast is called Pretty Intense. I would imagine that you have a kind of ferocity of wanting depth of intimacy within a relationship just based off of, you know, a little bit of what I know about you. How have you managed to still prioritize depth and intimacy in a relationship in the face of potentially so much choice?

From my perspective.

Yeah, for your perspective. And then, you know, maybe. Maybe what you see other people doing or how they can, you know, maybe go off that.

Yeah.

I only swim in the deep. So, like, I mean, I, you know, I've had one relationship that quite wasn't quite so deep, but pretty much every other one, at least there's intelligence and depth. But. But it's. It's essential for me. So, I mean, I. I don't operate any other way. I. I want to get into the psychology of something. I want to get into just even esoteric topics that are interesting to talk about.

I really love communication and talking and so, and even like a sort of like in the spirit of like a debate style kind of conversation is fun.

So we should debate next is what you're saying.

I, I love, I love it. I love to philosophize and debate. All of that is just, it's fun. I, I, I should say I'm, that I have my beliefs, but I'm open minded that all of those could be different. With one comment you say next month, next year, more information coming in. Like I'm not wishy washy about where I stand on things to some degree but like pretty much. But I also know that it could change and evolve. So that's why I love, as I'm not triggered by debates or triggered by philosophizing is because for me I'm, I actually hope that someone, actually I said this exact thing to that guy, Rich Cooper because he was like, he was excited to have the conversation and I was like why? Because you want to learn something or because you just like things to be contentious? And he said I like it to be contentious. And I was like, I thought you'd say that. I'm like, I like to have these conversations because I hope you can, I hope you change my mind on something because it means I learned something. So, so, yeah, so I love to do that, but within the context of relationships that's super important for me even. And in intimate relationships as well as friendships, if somebody's not vulnerable and transparent and open and loves to have deep conversations, I honestly just, I'm so bored so fast.

Yeah, I get that. So on the sign side of things, I'm a Scorpio. I think somebody did it before. I had like four or five houses in Scorpio or something like that. So it was like some rare breed of mysterious nonsense. I don't know, I don't know much about it.

But I had like, like you love the occult and the deep and the dark and like everything from like, like the, the sexual conversations and the energy of that in your own life as well as the truths of what we're doing and who we are. Like that's it. Way deep. Scorpios are the deepest.

That's it. Yeah, so I understand the like so, so what I hear you saying is that you combat that choice paradox with depth, which I think is very, very, very great way of navigating it. We're going to talk a little bit about evolutionary psychology in a minute. We're going to talk about the Question that you love, which is, what are we and what is this reality? But I want to take a. This can be so cliche. It's kind of a dad joke of me. I want to take a pit stop on talking about the intersection between achievement and spirituality. One of the things that I really appreciate about you is that you are this very driven individual who is deeply spiritual. And I think what I've seen in working with a lot of people who are very driven is that they often struggle with that exploration of spirituality. So how did the how and where did the spiritual questioning come in on your journey? When did it enter into the equation of Danica?

Yeah, because they're kind of contrasting each other. Like, someone that's a high achiever is usually oriented around, like, you know, logic. And, you know, with spirituality, you're. There's intangible evidence and clear, clear, clear. Something to be clear and obvious. And spirituality is just a mist of potential. Right? Like, it's just like, maybe there. And so it's. We don't have a lot of proof. There's not. It's not. It's not always rational. Sometimes it falls into what would be more of the feminine. Irrational. Feminine or irrational or spiritual, which is just kind of like an intuition. So then I'm like, okay, well, where did that. Where does that come from? Because, you know, that's real, like, as much as. But. But a high achiever is only working with the facts and the numbers and the, you know, P. Ls and all the things.

What can be predicted and calculated and specific outcomes.

Yeah, exactly. And so it. It does. They are big and they are quite in contrast. And so. But that falls into sort of my personality. I'm like, super, like, tough and strong, but then I can be super soft and, like, just want to cuddle. Like, I'm. I have a lot of dual nature to me. So the spiritual is just like it. I've. I've always been a little into it. I remember buying, like, love signs books when I was younger to see who I was compatible with and talking to astrologers and playing the Ouija board. And I always loved that stage. Oh, yeah. Like, watching the craft when I was a kid and loving the movies, loving the movie Contact about, like, outer space and gosh, there was a super old one that was about consciousness called Lawnmower man was about, like, expanding his sort of, like, mental capacity and, like, intelligence consciousness, like, it was such a weird one, but those were the fit in it. He was a simple, like, he was like a very Unintelligent lawnmower man. He mowed the lawns. And then this guy was working on some sort of like modalities to increase intelligence and brain capacity and it sort of like ended up putting him into like a matrix. And he was hyper intelligent and. But it was like he was in the matrix then anyway, so I love that stuff. So, yeah, I, I can't remember exactly how I got on my tangent of the lawnmower man, but.

Well, did you, did you have a moment? Like, I love the. In, in Zen, there's something called satori. And satori is like these sudden moments of enlightenment and they're, they're very brief and they're very fleeting, but it can, they can be very simple. You know, things like just a deep moment of presence or a, a deep experience of oneness with everything around you or, you know, that's generally what people are describing when they, when they talk about a satori moment. Did you have a satori moment that got you curious with it or was it something that was just always in the background of your, of your being as you were up?

Both. Both. I think probably the, the childhood.

Example would be that it wasn't a satori moment, but it was more of a. I knew that I was, I would call, I would call myself very like skeptical when it came to religion. So it, I was curious because it's very interesting to me, but why Certain people believe certain things, but, but I was always very skeptical. Like I just asked questions like back 100 million years ago when I got married, I became a Catholic. Like I went to catechism classes and like I would ask the simplest question, like, why are we eating no meat on Friday? Like, what is the story with that? Like, let's have a reason. We don't just do things to do things. And so, you know, I asked a lot of questions, but. But then I did have an actual sort of out of transcendental experience that happened in 2017. And it was just.

I mean, it was a bit of a build up of a story, but basically I was on the beach. There was this dog that I had many interactions with over a few days. And I was in Tulum, Mexico, and it sat down next to me and I was sort of transported. And I don't know how long it lasted, but. And it was very. It was like nothing. I couldn't see anything anymore. It was just sort of like energy and it was this like light energy that was like heading up into the sky. And all I got from this sort.

Of.

Expanse Expansive, bright space was. This was information. Like I was getting download, but it wasn't like someone was like, jennika, listen to me. It was just. And people can, I'm sure, relate. Like, words come in as an awareness. Like, it's not like somebody says the words, they just arrive. And so. But it was this message that, you know, it was like, basically the voice said this. The energy, the information said this. No matter how far you go, no matter how long you've been gone from spirit, from God, from whatever you want to call it, from something beyond you, it doesn't matter. It's always love. You're always fully loved. There's no difference between someone that's fully committed every day of their life to the last second before they die. Like, it doesn't matter. And that no matter. And that there's no need for forgiveness because there was never a judgment in the first place. That's why it's perfect. And so it was just such a powerful experience. I cried for like an hour afterwards, like, just crying. I like, what is going on? Like, put my sunglasses on. I'm like trying to keep my together on the beach, you know. But this dog was some sort of conduit or something. But that was a very, very. I mean, you can't come back from those experiences. And then I would say, to be honest that I think that.

These are the big shifts that happen in people's lives where, you know, your inner reality now doesn't match your outer reality. And big ones for that which are becoming far more common in the world are plant medicine journeys. And that is a very good example of your outer reality not matching your inner. Once you leave a ceremony.

You see things that you've never seen before. You become aware of things that you are that are embodied. They're not like, oh, I saw this. I think it's like, no, no, no, I like, no, I lived it. I was in it. And you can't come back from that. And so personally, I love that because my only mission in this life is the truth. And whatever that is, whatever the nature of who we are is, or, you know, what I'm here to do or what is holding me back. Like, I just want to know the truth. So I seek those out. And now by seek, I've done literally three ceremonies in my life. And so, you know, I'm not someone that is, like, at it regularly because there's so much I'm. I've still been integrating things that happened three years ago. So they're. They're Very life changing.

Yeah. I was gonna ask if you had explored psychedelics. I mean, it's something that, Yeah, I mean, definitely over the years I've talked about on the show quite a bit. I mean, I've done a number of psilocybin journeys, gone down to Costa Rica and done ayahuasca and, you know, really, really enjoyed that. I think that they do have a place for sure. But it sounds like you met a wonderful little Buddha dog.

I asked this question to my friend Teal Swan, who's a spiritual teacher, and I actually did it in the interview. I hadn't, I wasn't friends with her yet. I am now, but, but I, I story and she, she told me that, that because I had said at, in the explanation of my story, I said, I had said that the dog was me. I named the dog and I was like, I think that dog is me. Like there was just. The energy was so similar. It just felt, it was so interesting. Like when I wanted to see the dog, I didn't. And then as soon as I let go, but not in the let go sense that we can all understand where it's like, oh no, I don't care. But you don't. You totally care. It's the one where you actually let go from the fully from the, all the way from the core and you go, oh, it's all right. Like it's okay. Like, sure, it's fine. And then all of a sudden, boom, it would just show up. It was like so, so weird. But. But yeah, it's that dog she said was my twin flame.

That's awesome. I love that.

I'm like, oh, that's interesting.

The little multi dimensional connection.

Yeah, yeah. Have you ever had anything like that happen or like any kind of super out of body experience or transcendental or, or just some experience that was just so mystical that, you know, you, you never forgot.

Yeah, I mean I've had, I've had a lot of them in life.

Wow.

Both on, on psychedelics and then some not. And I mean, I think some of them are just plain, you know, they're sort of. I heard a gentleman that I haven't had on my show once. Rupert Spira, who's this wonderful English non dualist teacher, is talking about enlightenment being plain, you know, and like enlightenment being this sort of like very drab experience and that it's become sort of sensationalized in our modern culture. And I had all these moments from childhood that were just sort of very ordinary, but they were, since they were not Sensational. But they were. They were sort of like larger than life. And then as I got older, I remember when I was like, 19 or 20, we were in Italy. I had an experience where I was standing on the top of this white stone wall looking out at the olive orchards. And I had this experience of just, like, complete oneness. All I could see for as far. As far as I could see was just olive orchards. And it became kind of remember those, like. I don't remember what they were called, but you would look at them, and if you just, like, let your eyes blur enough that you would see an image appear out of it.

Yep.

And it became kind of like that where it was like this.

Yeah.

Almost psychedelic experience just looking at all of orchards. I wasn't high. I wasn't on anything. I hadn't had any alcohol. It was just like this very beautiful experience. And, you know, I've had many of those where, like, I. I remember in Vancouver, I meditated by the ocean and was so deep in the meditation that I felt myself become the waves. And there was no sort of discernment between myself or the sound of the ocean crashing against the rocks. Right. It's just sort of this one experience happening. My breath dropping in the tide. The tide coming in, the waves coming in and. And falling out. And so. So there's been a. There's been a lot of those over the years. And some of the more.

Some of the more challenging to metabolize psychologically and emotionally and spiritually because they're. They can be confusing and big. It's like, you know, the big. The. The big. Like, be careful what you wish for.

Yeah.

But have you ever had a. A rough. A rough experience?

Um, I would say it got a little like. I did a. I've done ayahuasca twice, like, two nights in a row, and then a psilocybin journey. So those have been like, the actual journey journeys I've done.

And in the psilocybin journey got a little sticky.

I. I haven't had one. So, like, that one was obviously with a medicine, but it definitely was like I felt so far away and so gone. But that was also part of something that I was able to integrate, which is, you know, having my own back and. And sort of making myself my own best friend and creating the best relationship in. In life, period, with myself, which was. My ayahuasca message in the journey was like, you're gonna have to make the relationship with you and you, not you and someone else. Like, I wanted to. So, you know, it also became a lesson, and I came back to myself. Like, my guide was like, you know. Yeah, but you came back. You're here. You're okay. But I was like, man, if I close my eyes, I'm back in it. And it's just so much. There's so much information. I'm overwhelmed, and it's just, like, it's. I just want to sleep right now, but I can't sleep because I'm. As soon as I close my eyes, I'm back in it. And she was like, you'll be okay. You just have to let go a little bit. And so that was kind of the only. That was the only plant medicine sticky thing. But then I. As far as sober experiences through meditation, various different things. Oh, I didn't. I do think ketamine can get pretty dark. Like, that can get. That can be a really heavy one.

Yeah, I've heard.

I have this nasal spray that, like, is, like, mixed with oxytocin. I think it's like, an oxytocin ketamine. And I took one hit that was like. I took some, and I didn't take very much. It was, like, a very little bit more than I had before. And I was freaking gone. Like, adios. Like, my body was not the same shape. I. My dog looked funny. I was like, oh, my God, Dan. I could get it together. I'm like, I'm just trying to go lay in this hyperbaric chamber and kill two hours, and I'm trying to chill out, and I am gone. Oh, my God. And then I thought I screwed myself up because I went into pressure and I was kind of sick. And then I'm doing this, and I'm like, oh, my God. Danica.

They call it, I think, a K hole or something like that. Yeah, those can be pretty dark. Those just feel very disassociative. Like, But. But sober ones. No, I. I mean, for me, I love the feeling. I've had such beautiful experiences just through. And now I say meditation. I need to be clear. I really don't meditate that much. I'm not gonna lie. So when I say it, I don't want to sound like, oh, on my daily practice, like, I don't remember the last time I meditated, but I have meditated many times. And when I do, like, I love that feeling of being so disassociated with this, with the size of my body. And I don't know if that makes sense to anybody, but basically, like, as I sit there, like, I could be 30ft tall. Like, I don't know where I start and end. I don't even feel my hands on my knees anymore. Like, I am, like, not there in the same shape and form from a feel standpoint. So I think that's a really cool space to get into because it just kind of makes you wonder, like, well, what are we? Like, I can't feel myself anymore. I truly feel 30ft tall right now. Like, I feel like my arms might be, you know, go forever. Like, it just. So those are some experiences I've had just sober. That and then those moments. Like, I think people can probably relate to this one, too. And the more you have of them, the better. But, like, for me, it's those when you're walking and all of a sudden you just look at a tree and just for a moment, you just feel love. You're like, wow. You just feel joy. For a moment you just feel, like, joy. Those are kind of nice, too.

I love it. I love the. I love the description. And I was going to say you. You seem to have something with dogs and altered experiences. You know, just like, be mindful. It's like, I'm gonna do a psychedelic journey. Get the dog out of the house.

You know, or like. Or, like, be intentional. Like, maybe you bring the dog in on your next. On your next go and just bring, you know, bring. Bring them into the intention.

Bring it all in. I swear to God, I might. Like, when I've done mushrooms before, because I've done. I do them for fun sometimes, too. I swear I look at my. Every time I see Dallas, my dogs, but especially Dallas, I think her face looks messed up. I'm like, oh, no. I'm like, I. There was one time I was like, come over here. I'm like, is Dallas's face okay? And there's, like, this picture of me, like, looking at her face, like. Like, I totally thought I was, like, gonna have to take her to the vet. And she has swollen face and.

So funny.

My God, so funny.

Well, I'm glad that we went down this. This rabbit hole a little bit, because I think, you know, obviously you've been on a journey of. I don't know if it's spiritual searching or just spiritual connection, you know, connecting to something bigger. And I think one of the interesting things I heard this gentleman, Francis Weller, who talked about, like, in order to really heal, we need to. And I'm going to butcher exactly what his quote is, but he said, in order to really heal, we need to inject imaginations back into our Wounds like imagination back into our wound. Because where there's trauma, imagination ceases to exist. And. And so I love this notion that. Because I always talk about, like, healing is not linear. And it's one of the biggest challenges in working with men is that we like to approach healing from a very systematic way. You know, it's like, give me the five step to get over this divorce. And it's like, okay, let's just deal with that expectation first. And it does sound like you've been on this journey of letting your imagination kind of seep through.

The psyche and this sort of.

Masculine frame and very direct and very assertive, and you've got a trajectory for yourself, and you're pursuing what you're ambitious about and what you want to be successful about. But it also sounds like this imagination that you have is sort of like, love that. Moving through the cracks of who you are and. And shining back out. And so how is your imagination or your curiosity shaped your life? Because it just sounds deeply like a huge part of who you are.

Yeah. Well, thank you for reflecting that. That's interesting. I love that. It makes me think of a couple things, like, because when we have a trauma, all we do is remember it the way it was. And we get stuck there. Right? We just get stuck. Right. Like, right there. And you can see how someone reacts to a situation when they've been triggered by the age that they act, sort of how they acted out, how they deal with other people then.

So we do get stuck, and there's no imagination there. They're like, what else could have happened? What else could have been? The reason is part of imagination to heal trauma. And, you know, so that makes me think of the other thing, which is, you know, EMDR is such a powerful practice, I think, to reprogram those traumatic memories.

So. So, yeah, because you're going. You're able to see it now from an observer perspective without the trauma being what you see. You see it all of a sudden with maturity, with a guide, with experiences, with perspective. And it's a hugely transformative practice, I've found. I don't think that you can seek truth with a rigid mindset.

Like, how do you seek the truth without. With a rigid mindset.

You would never be seeking it.

Right. Does that make sense?

Yeah, that's true. I think if you had a rigid mindset around seeking truth, it almost. There's almost like a presupposition that you know what it is or that you. Or that you know the way there or some version of that. I think this is where I have a lot of challenges with, like, people that are fundamentalist, you know, people that have very fundamentalist adherence to some doctrine. Because there's. There is this sort of, like, air of superiority that enters in and a natural almost missing of something that feels quite important. Right. Because the, The. Yeah. That rigidness is all of a sudden.

Yeah, all of a sudden. I think it. I think it blinds us a little bit. Like we. We become closed in a way, whether that's psychologically or emotionally or mentally.

But I'm going to come back to you and just say, you know, what. What is truth for you? Because you've been on this exploration of what we are and what this reality is, I think, for a number of years. And so, you know, not that we. You need to have some definitive answer by any means.

But no, if anyone does right now, then there. Yeah, I don't think anyone can. I don't. Maybe that's the point is we don't get to know, but we seek and we, like, learn a little bit and we keep growing and expanding. So.

Truth, I mean, that leads to an interesting thought which is, is there an actual. Is there like an overlay that creates the rules here? Is there some kind of overlay that is like, this is the universal law? Are the seven hermetic principles really what operates this reality? Are there other ones or.

Is it within the dimensions? Like, how real are those and then. Or are we just our own little mini universe? Like. Like I experience life in one way. I can be looking at the same thing you look at, and I see it different than you see it. Like, I've got my own universe going on. Like, my whole experience is. Is only mine and yours is only yours. And so are there rules within that or is there actually an overlay that governs all of these universes, like these solo universes that we experience?

Is it some kind of both? I really don't know, but it does seem like. I mean, so if we're answering the question, like, what is truth? The question that I come to is like, is there such thing as an objective truth?

Because it seems like truth. There's, like, kinds of truths. There's sort of like a. Your own truth. There's an objective truth, there's a.

And I don't know, I really question whether or not there's an objective truth. So this might be a How come?

What do you mean?

Because we're all having our own experience.

Yeah, because our subjective experience plays such a big role in the definition of what Truth is. Or what is transpiring.

I mean, even inanimate objects aren't there unless observed. So do I see it the same way you see it?

Have you interviewed Donald Hoffman yet?

Yes.

Yeah. How did that go? I mean, I love his perspective. I think consciousness as the fundamental is something that I have always felt.

And then when I heard him articulate it and read his book and listened to his interviews, I was like, yeah, like, of course, you know, it's this one thing that we haven't been able to describe. But to just come back to this notion of truth, do you feel like there is an.

Intersection or a connection between truth and love?

The source of it, perhaps? Source itself or source.

God is described as God can be called love. And for some people.

God or love could also be called source. So if there is sort of like.

Something governing the rules of this reality that create something true that those things, truth and love, are coming from the same place.

So that seems like the common denominator for me. Truth doesn't always feel like love, though. Does.

Doesn't always feel like love. No, no. But love always feels like truth, you know, and even. Even when it's not, even when it's sort of elusive, it still. It still feels like unequivocal truth, which is. Which is sort of paradoxical in nature. But it's. I think it's something that we've all experienced that you can feel love for. You know, the moment that you're talking about seeing a tree and just feeling this expansive kind of joy, it's like that there's a. There's a undeniable quality of both love and truth in that experience that need not to be questioned, you know, and as soon as you try and use the rational piece about it, you. You lose it. Right. It's like, that's why I love the dao. The dao. De Ching, right? The dao that's called the dao is not the dao. It's like the way that's called the way is not the way. It's like as. As we try and describe some of these things, they become right. You know, we. We lose. We lose the essence of the truth, of what they actually are, if that makes sense.

Yeah. Well, it makes me think about my message that I got in that experience in Tulum is that there's no need for forgiveness because there was never a judgment in the first place. So, you know, I say truth can be hard, but now observe a truth without any kind of judgment. And now there's nothing wrong with it, it's just things happening. When I had on that same mushroom journey that I did, I did see that sort of perspective that Donald talks about, about consciousness. Part of being gone, really far gone, was I knew I wasn't real as a human. Like, I knew. I. My experience in that. In that space was that I was a waveform, and that I was just sort of like a waveform of information. And all of my experiences that shape this reality are these waveforms intersecting, creating experiences. Whether they're the feeling of cold or the taste of a mango, like, it's. It's just an experience, but the taste.

Of a mango is. I mean, that's a special one.

Yeah, we like that.

If you don't. If people don't like mangoes, I like. I just don't know how we be friends after that, you know?

Right. It's like. It's. It's unhuman.

Sorry.

And in this reality, I. I had to build my way back to being human because I. I fully embodied. I wasn't real. Like, I was like, wow, how am I gonna come back from this? And then I thought, oh, shoot, my sister's gonna be so mad at me. It's literally what I.

There you are. Right? And then. And then we're back.

And here she.

Was with me all weekend. I'm like, oh, no, this is real for whatever real is. But. But I. I had to build my way back to being human. And the fir. And I needed to. The first thing I had to buy in to build a reality was the mind.

Which kind of speaks to maybe consciousness. Right. Like, I had to agree to the mind. I had to agree to the ego. I had to agree to this construct. I had to agree to the mind.

Do you know who Christopher Langham is? Have you ever heard that name?

No.

Really interesting. Cat.

Was said to be, like, the most intelligent, like, the smartest man on earth. You know, had somebody tested him and said that they'd never seen an IQ that high, like over 200 or something like that. Anyway, he wrote something called the cpm. I think.

It was basically his version of the Theory of Everything. And it was the Cognitive Theoretical model. That's what it was. Cognitive Theoretical Model by Christopher Langham. And it's incredibly complex. And I tried reading it for a long time, and I circled back around on it, and it's very interesting, heavy. But.

The sort of crux of it or the premise of it is that reality is language talking to itself about itself, or information talking to itself about itself.

Okay.

No matter how big you go, right? Gravitational waves, black holes, supernovas, etc, massive galaxies, all the way down to subatomic particles, quarks, etc, that is all just a form of information interacting with itself, about itself. And I thought that was a very interesting take on what we are. You know, that we're just different levels, different types of information, talking to itself, about itself, having this kind of discourse and dialogue and that, you know, where consciousness fits into that is, you know, a bit of a interesting piece. But I agree. But I thought that was. What's your take on that? When you hear that I'm totally.

That makes sense. I mean, I've been friends with Nassim, Nassim Harameen for a while and he's a brilliant, brilliant.

Physicist. And he talked a lot about that and how.

Like, what's building our reality is essentially everything. Trying to find sort of. It's the sort of balance between potential and kinetic energy. Trying to find a balance. And so, and that you're. That they're both there. It's information at all times. And this information is just trying to essentially get organized. Like the example used was a Rubik's Cube. And if you're blind and you have no feedback, like, it's just a feedback loop. This information is just a feedback loop of yeses and nos. Like yes, no, yes, no, and then some. We get a lot of yeses, right? Or a lot of, a lot of yeses with some person. And then finally we get a huge no. We're like, oh, that's the lesson, right? Like yeses and no's. But it's. With a Rubik's Cube, if you have a blindfold on and no feedback at all, and it's randomness, can you get the Rubik's Cube, right? It's some extremely high number of years that it would take to do it. Like, it's just unbelievable. And then as soon as you incorporate a feedback loop, just a yes and no feedback loop, now this Rubik's Cube is solved. And like.

I can't remember if it's minutes or an hour or something like that. It goes from like, you know, tremendous. I feel like it might be wrong, but it's like, I don't know, a billion years or something like that, or a million years or something. And then it goes to like an hour. And so as soon as you get the feedback. So it's just this, this constant feedback loop that we're experiencing in life. And that's really what it is. So I agree, like, you're A feedback loop for me, I'm a feedback loop for you. That's what's all happening. We can't see ourselves, so we're just experiencing ourselves through other people, through our experiences, through our patterns. It's just a feedback loop to try and figure out how to get more organized, be more coherent.

Yeah. Battle, empowerment, entropy. In some ways, right? Like the, the ever present, present.

Experience of not disintegration, but like the falling apartness of reality, right. That it's like that energy is always sort of expanding, you know, life is becoming more chaotic, etc.

Maybe consciousness is the antithesis to entropy.

Maybe. I mean that would, that would make sense, right? This sort of attempt to pull everything back together. You know, I mean, what's fascinating is there's all of these dualities in existence, right? I mean, we started this conversation off about masculine feminine, which, you know, I, I think I've always looked at from an esoteric perspective that the masculine is the ever present constant of the now, the sort of unchanging now. And that the feminine is the expression of the ever changing now. And that those two things, when they meet create this, you know, non dual experience of existence. And that we all have both polarities within us, right? We all, we all have this presence and this awareness to whatever is right now that's unchanging, unmoving. And, and then we have this other part of us that is like, you know, just chaos and experience and emotion and thoughts and you know, like we don't choose our emotions, they choose us. We don't choose our thoughts, they choose us. And just constantly coming up and we can go and experience and enjoy that constant expression of what is coming out in the now or we can move into a space of just being the observer of whatever is happening. And so I find that that sort of dance and balance is, is fascinating. How do you, how do you look at the masculine and the feminine? And we, we went down the rabbit hole, by the way.

Yeah, I'm that I love it. How do I view the masculine feminine?

Yeah, how do you view the masculine feminine? And, and like culturally right now, what do you think is happening to the masculine and feminine?

Well, first I'll answer that question. I do think that the, I think men are being triggered to find balance. I think women still are working to find that balance too. But I think that I just think culture for longer has. Women have been stepping into this masculine feminine and I think that the masculine's triggering men. So I kind of think that's what's happening.

So just to clarify that women stepping into their masculine orientation is triggering men to find their more feminine orientation or that women stepping into their masculine is. Is just triggering for men, period.

Or both.

Good clarification. I do think that the, the women in their masculine triggers men in their masculine because there is. Because things are not quite so split and obvious. Like women aren't quite just in their feminine all the time and sort of more subservient and passive. And that then I think that. I think that because women are becoming more masculine in their life at times that it triggers men. I think that men need to find. And I think one really good question is like traditionally men have felt like their role in relationships is to provide and protect. But what happens when you don't really need to do that anymore? Maybe protect to some degree, but what happens when you don't have to provide?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, certainly that becomes a bit of a challenge. Do you think that as women have. We're going to go down this pathway? I'm going to. So this is, this is a, this is a fascinating one. Do you think that as women have stepped more into their masculine that their selection preferences of men have evolved with them or that they've. That their selection preferences of men have largely stayed the same?

I do think the selection has changed. I think that I'm speaking for myself as well as for women in general, from my understanding of friends and my own. Enough of a survey is that it's not acceptable for a man to not be emotionally available with us. It's not acceptable to shut down your feelings, not talk to us, not communicate, not have feelings. Just. It's not okay. It's not okay to sweep things under the rug. We give a. We can feel it. It's not comfortable. And getting men to figure out how to communicate in that space and some of that feels weak or feels very vulnerable is what we're requiring. Because living in a space where things are not acknowledged and brought to light and energy is not cleared is just not. Is not comfortable. So that for me is what I feel like is being asked. It's not to be a. It's not to be like a pushover and crying all the time. It's just to be able to communicate how you're really feeling and what you really need. Because it doesn't work to be passive aggressive. It doesn't work to neglect. It doesn't work to shut down sexually and emotionally and physically. It just doesn't work. It's not fun, it's not comfortable.

We don't you know, we can survive on our own. Right. And so that's what I feel like is being asked is, is just that sort of better, better union, A better union of a man and a woman. It's not okay to just like come home at 5 o', clock, sit on the couch, have, you know, dinner brought to you and pass out and not clean a plate and, or be out and not like with your buddies for four or five hours at night and come home drunk. Like, like, I don't know, that whole like old paradigm is, just doesn't work.

Yeah, it's interesting because like, historically we've gone through men and women have gone through a sort of, you know, laundry cycle of roles and experiences. And there certainly are times historically where men were much more emotionally expressive.

And still masculine. Right. I mean, you look at like the romantic era where men are renowned for, you know, writing poetry and being very romantic and very expressive, but there was still this sort of chivalry. And, you know, there's certainly complications within that. And you can go, you can go back all the way to like the era of like the Spartan warriors, right. And you know, the part of their Spartan training as young boys was obviously hand to hand combat and, and weapon training and shield and defensiveness in how they actually fought. But then they also had training on writing poetry and dance and oration.

Wow. Right.

And so there was, that was expected of warriors. And I do think that to some degree.

We'Ve told men that to be the pinnacle of masculine is to be one dimensional. And I think that's what's crushing a lot of them. And I see a lot of men struggling with that of like, oh, for me to be the peak masculine, I have to be, you know, Andrew Tate and my life has to look like that. And I think that it's doing a disservice because even if you look at somebody like Andrew Tate, the guy's a very good speaker, whether you like what he's saying or not. The guy's a very good writer. Right. He knows how to speak to people through words. He can be poetic in some way, shape or form.

So, and, and there's many other examples I think of, and I'm not using Andrew Tate as an example of what a man should aspire to, but I do think that when we, when we distill it down to being this one dimensional way of a man, that we miss out. And I remember hearing like Rolo Tomasi, who's like this guy in the red pill community. He's there with Like Rich Cooper, right?

He's like then, yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

And yeah, like the little step above Rich Cooper.

But yeah, right, right. How like Carl Jung creating the anima and the animus, the masculine and the feminine, that we all have this masculine and feminine within us. I remember him saying like, you know, curse Carl Jung for putting this into the collective psyche, you know, this notion that we all have masculine, feminine within us. And I, I think it's that type of stuff that.

Oh my God, that dude suppressing his feminine so hard.

Yes. And it's very externalized, right. Look at him. He's got very long flowing hair and he's a musician and you know, and so like, it's in his personality, it's baked into who he is. So. But the, the disconnection from it and the avoidance of it is the suppression, right. It's the ignorance of that part. Do you feel. Because when I hear your answer. Do you feel. Because when I hear your answer, I. I can't help but feel a little bit of like, oh, that's like the onus is on men, that men need to change and do something. And I'm curious, when you look socially right now at what's happening in modern dating, right, 66% of young men are single, but only 32% of young women are single. 27% of young men aren't having sex, but only 12, 12 or 13% of young women are having sex. Right. So women are on average more sexually active right now. There's are in relationships more right now. Etc. Do you. Is there a part that women play in this? Is there a role that women play in this? And it's again, it's not about blame. I'm just curious about where you think that that fits into the equation.

It's a very fair question.

Work is always an inside job for each and every one of us. And so if men are really struggling, they need to figure out why they're struggling.

You know, no one's coming to save you. Your beautiful wife taught me that.

She'S a killer.

No one holds the keys. And I'm like, God damn it, that's scary. But it is true. So figuring out why, what's going on there, but that doesn't mean, that does not mean 100% that women aren't playing a part.

So.

I don't have the answer to that. I can say there does seem to be an I could. I think at times I observe women to be overly.

Independent.

And I don't think that it's true that like the whole idea of, like, I don't need a man or whatever, it's like, okay, there's a difference between need and want. Like, you don't really need a woman either, right? I mean, like, we don't really need each other. You, for the most part, it's not the caveman days. Like, you don't need to go slay a deer for me to eat.

But I do. I do think that the. The focus in. On hyper individualization is brutally damaging to intimate relationships. Like that notion. Like, whenever I hear a woman say, I don't need a man, I hear somebody who has unresolved pain with men or the masculine and who is likely in their own life embodying.

The masculine to such a degree that there's no room for a man even if she wants one.

Yeah, yeah. Because the truth is, as far as the expression goes, the energy of it is like, like pushing them away. And it's like, I want one. Like, I want a relationship. I want a partnership. I think I can be much better with the right one than on my own. I believe in the union being stronger. So maybe there's a role where women need to step up, to be patient in that. In that messiness, be patient for a man figuring out, you know, where he falls in that sort of vulnerable. Vulnerable space of, of sharing. It's like, it always looks like it's like, let's say, you know, you're not some. Let's say you're somebody who hasn't spoken your truth much in your life. You've. Your. Your voice has been sort of like shut down. You weren't able to communicate well growing up. Your voice really won't work. You'll try. You, like, you not only will not have the right words, but you won't really speak very well. Like, it's like a practice and so forth. A man or even a woman in their own little space. Because I've experienced some of them on my own. But like, for a man to like, learn how to say things that are emotional, like, sometimes it might just not be elegant. It might not be very pretty, but there might be a more feminine space that a woman can hold for a man to be a little messy, right? Just be a little bit messy in that experience. And so, you know, the hyper fem, the hyper masculine females are. It's not doing. And we're not. We're not really playing. We're not really doing as much as we could, maybe some of us. So I think that's something that could change because I, that's what I see. So I do I know what the woman's role is to fix this or what we're not doing. All I can say is that it seems like some women are very hyper masculine in their independence and that doesn't do anyone any good either because I think that it would be.

A lie for about anybody to say like, you know, I don't need a man or I don't, like, I don't want one. And I think that there are some people that feel nice when they're on their own. But you know, I think that the companionship is, I believe, fundamental to our reality as humans is companionship and connection. So maybe if someone's not getting it from an intimate relationship, they have a wealth of friends that support them in ways that bridge the gap. But we need people.

I think the complexity of it right now is that when I go into the online space and I hear people talking about what's going on between men and women relationally, there's just so much finger pointing, you know, and I'm, and I don't think that you did that in any way, shape or form. I think you very clearly articulated what, what you think, you know, men are, can step into. And I do think that there's value in that. I also think that there's a risk in it, you know, and there's a risk for men to be vulnerable. Like I talked about this in some of my writing in the book of like.

It'S not the cure all solution that we're being told is needed. You know, like one of the things I'm going to come, I'm going to answer or maybe just double back on what we're talking about in the beginning of this, which was.

How do I tell men to handle their more masculine partners? And because oftentimes what men are doing is they either do one of two things. They either move into this very feminine oriented space where they become very submissive and they become very soft and they become very acquiescing to whatever that woman is wanting and they, they try and scramble to do or become what they think she wants him to be, which can, which can solve the problem in the short term but almost always creates long term issues between the couple.

Yeah.

Or he will move into a more a, Almost combative is the word I'm going to use combative masculine space, which is what I see mostly happening between couples because we as men, when we interact with another man who is being combative with us, that generally leads to some form of Very real physical conflict. Right. And so what we're not, what, what most men in our culture are not used to is a woman who's now very much in her masculine, who's very assertive, who's very direct, who's very dominant, coming at us. And when that happens, I think for a lot of men, what they do, like I said, is they either become very feminine or they move into that conflict oriented version of a man of masculinity, which is then like, well, I don't know how to deal with you because if you were a man, this would probably lead to a physical altercation. And so now I feel stuck. Right. So I don't know how to resolve this conflict with you. And so what I usually say to guys is, your work in modern day relationships is to move out of confrontation, move out of this desire to butt heads with your partner and compete with her and out masculine her, because that's a losing game. And it's to move into a more depth oriented version of masculinity, which is your mission is to out regulate her.

Right? To out regulate, to actually be more grounded, more calm, more centered and more unmovable in those moments. Because, right, be a rock.

Be a rock, which is very masculine.

Move into that space.

But I think that the misconception is that how most men have done that historically is suppression. Right. It's just like, well, I'll just stuff my anger down. Whereas now I think what it's actually asking from us is a deeper quality of emotional intelligence, which is I think really what the stoics were talking about. Right. Is, is know thyself so deeply that in the moment when your partner shows up and she's in her mask and she's assertive, she's in your face, she's created trying to, of maybe she's creating conflict or she's mad at you that you understand what's happening within you to such a degree that you can traverse that new territory rather than saying, I wish you weren't so angry or I wish you didn't express your anger this way, or hating how your woman shows up in that space.

Vice versa. So anyway, I'm not too sure what your take is on that.

No, I think there's a lot of this really well said. You're. Well, you're very articulate and you are, your thoughts are very clear.

It, it's like what it feels like for me are the things that I was thinking. I feel like the question is, is what are the roles? And I think that's what's being shuffled. Right. So it seems like a good conversation is to have a, to talk. You and your partner figure out where do you want to lead? Lead.

Right. Because I definitely want Amanda lead in certain places. So like here's, here's, here's the, here's where I want you to take over. Right. Save me from myself, make sure I'm safe when I'm out of the house. Like, you know, whatever the things are that like, you know, these are where I want you to take the lead. Take the, in the bedroom, whatever it is, like, take the lead. And then also the other part that I think this is the, that's something that is done in communicate through communication, but the one that isn't is for the kind of more of what you're talking about to know yourself so well. And for me, that also is a little bit like of a parallel line to that would be just respect your partner for being able to be strong. Like have some respect for that. Like, I know it, it can get contentious at times, but I mean, like, I want to be respected for that. I want to be respected that I can stand on my own two feet and I can fight the good fight and that I don't get manipulated and that I'm not going to back down. Like, I believe in what I believe in so well, so, so much too. And so, you know, I think that there's a little bit of respect to be had for the strength of someone and that is totally unique to each person. Like, somebody might not want any of that. Go find that there are those available.

So you have to respect it. And then I think the other part is just establishing what the roles are because that's what's getting shuffled around.

Yeah. And that's, that's the part that socially I think is in chaos. And. Yeah. And so I think when people can get clear on here's the roles that I enjoy playing in this, in this relationship, that can be incredibly.

Helpful.

Totally nowhere do you want to lead. Right. It's not a matter of even just that one sided, like, here's where I want you to lead, but it's like this is where I want to lead. And if those things don't sync up, then you got a problem. But if they do, off to the races.

Yeah. And I think a lot of men, I mean, I can only speak for myself, which is like, I love, love leaving. That's just, that's like, it feels natural to me. I've also had to work exceptionally hard in order to be good in that area.

Because I didn't have a lot of confidence growing up because, you know, I wasn't the smartest kid in school. You know, all the things that I thought I needed in order to like, be a good leader. But over the years, what I've come to realize is like, leadership is really about influence, responsibility and direction. And, and so, you know, the, the more that we can master those things, the better. But you kind of answered my question a little bit that I was going to ask. I'm going to ask it anyways. And we'll close off with this, which is what is a woman like Danica Patrick looking for in a man?

Oh, man.

Do you want to get my laundry list of traits that I.

You're like, let me get up my note on my iPhone. I have this press.

Exactly. I have one. I do.

You know.

I do have, like, actually I'm totally going to pull it up because there are five, like, important, this is great.

This is great.

Five important traits that. These are not in order. These are just the five things. Adventure.

Smart, intellectual, open minded, that whole thing.

Honest.

Funny.

And passionate.

So there's a lot else. But, but those are the main, most important things to me that I know I need to. And I've learned that through relationships. And I've also, you know, those are some of the things I've just always gravitated towards. But, but ultimately, I think the more, I think what we're kind of getting into in culture and in life and this experience is that we're really getting good at sensing the truth. And so.

It doesn't. Someone doesn't necessarily need to fit a certain bill, a certain box, a certain list, but they gotta be honest and true. Like we resonate with truth. So the more someone can be themselves, you don't have to agree with me all the time. In fact, that's sometimes the most endearing thing when someone's like, you know, I don't know, I don't think so. And you go, okay, cool. Because you know what? Now when you do agree with me, I believe you. And so there's value in not agreeing on everything.

Because it shows that you're, you're, you're in your truth, you're living your truth, you're honest and your words match your emotions. Because I, that's something that I sense deeply within people is whether or not what they're projecting and what's coming out of their mouths and how they're acting is, is in resonance with their truth. Like how does it feel? Is there A. Is there a resonance here? Like, does this feel clean or does it feel confusing?

So the less confusing you are, I think, the more amazing you are. Which doesn't mean you have to fit a certain list of traits and heights and weights and whatever. I know that guys get up in arms about, you know, needing to be over 6 foot to get picked on a dating app, but trust me, like, it doesn't have to fit a certain list of things, but you gotta be in your truth. And I think that really resonates.

Yeah, I think it's the challenge with the amount of data that we can pull from dating apps now, you know, and. And how dating apps have really skewed things in a lot of ways, because you do have guys that are on there that are pulling a lot of the women, you know, and that a lot of the women are attracted to, in some ways, a small subset of men.

Yeah.

And then you have this, you know, like the bottom 50% of men on dating apps, they just get no traction. You know, it's just. It's. That's rough. You know, that'd be a rough experience to have.

Yeah.

So.

I feel like I could talk to you for hours, and I think that we would probably have some. Some more. I mean, we traversed some territory. We bounced around a little bit.

It was fun.

But we traversed some territories. I'm going to leave you with the final question of. Because we've been talking about men and women and masculine and feminine dynamics, and we. We kind of inadvertently talked about some evolutionary psychology here and there. Spirituality, achievement. Like, we kind of crossed the board. What do you think that women get wrong about men and that men get wrong about women?

What do men get wrong about women?

We're not crazy.

We're lie detectors. Because I believe that. I believe that women are very.

Somatically intuitive.

And so that kind of comes and lands in the mind eventually too. Like, there's some information that's confusing. So I think where guys. I think guys giving women a bad name. Being crazy, I think is just because we just have certain sensing capabilities that are heightened. And so it makes us seem crazy because we're like, what are you doing? Why are you doing that? Why? Like.

Probably pretty justified most of the time.

I think that might be something that guys get wrong about girls. We're not crazy. We're just intuitive.

It's good. Okay. Vice versa.

What do I think about men? What do I think that women get wrong about men?

You worked with a lot of. You worked with a lot of men. You've been around a lot of men. You've talked to a lot of men. I think it's. I think you have a good, like, data set to pull from.

They. I found a long time ago that men think very simply. Like, it's not as confusing. I think women. There's a lot more interference. There's a lot more thoughts. There's a lot more. A lot more going on. I think men are quite. Are a lot more linear in their thinking and it's a little bit more obvious. I don't think that it is as complicated as. As we make it out to be. And I think maybe, you know, this is a little bit. That's not exactly the same thought. But what I just thought of is that men do push things down more. Men do suppress more. Men don't communicate as much. So you think something's wrong with them or you think something might be wrong with you because of the way that they're acting. And it's just that they're just not communicating what's going on. They're just gonna deal with it or let it go away or push it down or talk to someone else sometime later or maybe you later. But I think that that's kind of where the crazy comes in, is that women wanna know what's going on at all times and they can sense something. And that, you know, since masculine nature to not, like, be like. So today I had a really hard day. You know, Jen from accounting said, where's that paperwork? And you know, hurt my feelings. It's not your nature. So, like, let it simmer. And that leads to the ever so important nature of autonomy. To be able to really know where you stand emotionally. So that when something else is going on around you, you know, it's not you. And then you don't get triggered, then you don't get reactive, then you don't get crazy. You gotta know where you're at. And I think that this is something that could be of value on both sides is you've just gotta have a little bit of your own shit going on and you have to have a little bit of alone time. I find alone time to be the only way that I can reorient with where I'm at. And if I don't get it, then I can kind of get a little bit skewed. And then I'm like, oh, what did I do? What is wrong? Like, my. My. My codependent nature comes out more. But when I have alone time and I can reorient with myself, now I know it's not me. And then sometimes things just go away because it was never me. I would have made a big deal out of it in the past, but now I'm like, not me. It's not me. I didn't do anything. I. So I think that alone time could be of. Of high value. So I know that wasn't a super, super clean answer, but.

But no, it's good.

Not super clean.

I was going to make a joke of, like. So you're admitting that sometimes women project their complexities onto men?

Yes, that too. See, it just keeps weaving.

Oh, that's good. Well, this has been an absolute blast. We will have the links for your site, for your podcast in the show Notes. For anybody that wants to learn a little bit more about you, is there somewhere that you would like them to go?

Man, I mean, you can get a lot of information from listening to my podcast and my. My curiosities. But, I mean, I'm pretty sure I still have a website and all those things. But, you know, I love my podcast. I make some wine. So if you get. If you're having a tough day and you need to relax, pour a glass of my wine and listen to a podcast about, you know, life and whatever it is that you want to learn about.

Awesome. Well, Danica, thank you so much for joining me. For everybody that's out there, man it forward. Man it forward. Share this podcast with somebody that you think will enjoy it, that will dive in, maybe listen to this with a friend or a partner, but this is one of those conversations you definitely want to share. So thank you so much for tuning in. And until next week, this is Connor Beaton signing off.