Dating is Just Like Marketing – Ethics, Effectiveness, and Attraction with Tad Hargrave

Foreign.

Sir. How are you doing today?

Doing great. Good to be here.

Yes, sir. Welcome to the man Talk show, Mr. Tad.

Thank you.

My, my Alberta friend.

I saw the, I saw the area code for you. I remember, I was just like, no way.

I thought that was, that was pretty funny. That brought me back to calling home, you know. But we're going to talk about some interesting subjects today, all around a topic that I don't normally talk about on the show but that I've learned a lot about over the last number of years. And so I thought a good entry point, you know, that we were talking about before we got on the show was just how is dating and maybe even relationship itself an extension of marketing? Like good dating is an extension of good marketing, and if you're not having any luck, it's an extension of bad marketing. To draw some parallels there. And let's talk about how we position ourselves in the dating field.

Okay. Well, I mean, at first I think we have to talk about what marketing is. Even so, I think about marketing, obviously it's a verb, but there's the noun of the market. And you could think of the, the verb marketing being that's what the market does. That's the, the sound that the market makes as it, as it does its thing. So when people think about the market, it's easy to think about Wall street, but I'm thinking about Main Street. You know, they say.

There have been studies on this that at like a save on or a superstore or Tesco or whatever, there's, you know, this many conversations. But at a farmer's market, it's 10 times that. So we know that if you go to a farmer's market, there's a kind of a hubbub to it. And that's, to me, that's the, the sound of the marketplace. That's the market doing its thing, which to me is marketing. So the market is where we come together to share. Here's what I've been up to since I saw you last. So, so I hold it in that way of it's not some separate thing from human life. This is actually one of the centers of human life. And so there's that, there's the market part.

And then I don't, you know, you were saying those are the good dating and the bad dating. Like the good dating is when it works and the bad dating is when it doesn't. And I would maybe offer up, at least for me, there's sort of three pillars of thinking that I have around marketing.

Ethics Effectiveness and beauty. And that, to me, marketing, when it's working, the way I would define it is.

Number one, it's ethical, meaning it feels good to everybody. You know, everything's on the up and up. And ethical as defined also by the. There's no hidden agenda in it, but there's no agenda to get the sale, to get people to buy from the particular people you're talking to. There might be an overall strategic agenda to get clients, but there's no particular agenda that this person will buy from me right now or these people in this group of people I'm talking to will buy.

And instead of that agenda to get the sale, there's an agenda to get to the truth of is this a fit or not? So already you can start to hear the parallels to dating or relationship, but that becomes the overall ethical agenda. Then, of course, there is effectiveness. It has to work. It has to actually produce a result, has to generate sales.

You know, and again, there's that connection to dating. If it's just ethics, you're the nice guy.

And you're. You're doing all the right. I mean, you just. You're a good person. You're sweet. Yeah.

Why is that? Why is that?

Why is. Is. Why did he.

If you. If it's just ex. If it's just ethics, you're the nice guy. What does that look like in dating?

Like, oh, man. I think most of your listeners could tell us a list of what that looks like. It looks like there's a woman you're smitten with, and you just say, I'll just be her friend, and I'll be there all the time for her. But have you told her you're interested? Oh, no. Have you taken the risk and express yourself? Absolutely not. That's. That's what that looks like.

Which, you know, women are very happy to receive. Of course. Who wouldn't? All this attention, it's great. And. And.

So for a man, yeah, the. The ethics. If you just lean on the ethics, like, but I'm the nice guy. I'm honest, I'm good, I'm supportive. I'm all these things, and it's true. But. But there's. It's not that. It's not important. It's just not the whole story.

It's. There's more seats at the table than just. Just that. So the effectiveness means it works. So from a marketing standpoint, it actually puts food on the table. Or from the dating standpoint, I suppose it's that, well, okay, you're going out and you're being nice to everybody, but are you meeting somebody? Are you expressing your interest? Is this turning into dates? Are you. Are you filtering properly to make sure that you're not ending up with people who are not fit? And then there's this third piece of beauty that the way that we market can itself.

Make people want to keep living. You know, the way that we market can. Can feed the world with the kind of beauty that makes people want to get up in the morning and. And be alive. It's not just that the work we do is beautiful, but that the way we market itself is beautiful. And of course, the way we market largely in the world is profoundly ugly and deeply discouraging, full of gaslighting, full of all sorts of manipulations. And when you're on the receiving end of constant manipulation, it does a number on you. You know, as kids who grew up with this, you know, with parents for various reasons, are, you know, narcissists or abusive, and there's all this emotional or physical manipulation from the parent. It damages you for a lifetime. And if you're marketed to in that way, if you are treated like an object, which is fundamentally what happens. You know, I remember Kendra Kunoff. I don't know if you know her. She's in the relationship world. She made a distinction I love. She said, you know, slimy means you objectify people, and creepy is veiled intention. So, so, so much marketing is both. So much marketing is slimy, and it's creepy slimy in that it turns people into numbers. And you can feel it when you're on the receiving end of it. And we shouldn't be.

Naive in. In thinking this doesn't impact us. When a salesperson looks at us and treats us in a certain way, you kind of have to shake it off after. And, you know, of course, men do this to women. Women do this to men. The objectification in various ways and then the creepiness is this. Yeah. The veiled intention. This is the lurking. This is the hanging out on the periphery. This is the, you know, I just really want to be your friend when there's more. But then it can be felt. And that doesn't feel good to. To either party. And so that's. That's my sense is how do we market in a way that is. Yes, it's ethical. It doesn't. You don't have to.

Do any rationalizations for what you're doing. You don't have to hide it. There's no Novocaine for your soul. Just to get yourself to do these things, which often there is the number of rationalizations. I hear people well, but, you know, if. If I don't sell them, then they're. I'm gonna hurt them somehow, you know, because they're not going to buy the product. And. And they'll thank me after. And I just need to overcome the objection. Why? Well, because they need what I have to offer. And. And then you translate this to dating, and it. It becomes appalling. But it's appalling in sales, too. It's the same thing. And again, the effectiveness in.

There's ways to engage with women, you know, as a man, if we're talking men and women, there's ways to engage with a woman that she'll treat you like a mother, and there's ways to engage in a woman that she'll treat you like she's your sister. And then there's ways that will have her respond as a lover. You know, there's. And so, so many of the.

People just stuck on the ethics don't understand. I think there's a kind of denial of the differences between men and women, an unwillingness to contend with the fact that we may be different, we may respond differently.

And so then guys get confused. I mean, I think for so many men who probably listen to your podcast, probably many of whom got into the pickup and dating stuff at some point, you know, read a book or two, read an article somewhere and were floored. I mean, this was certainly my story. I just floored, like, wow. There's a different way of interacting with women. Of course, some of that was sketchy and some of it was beautiful, but that. There's a different way to interact that sparks attraction, and that's different than the way we'd behave with a friend. So there's a. There's a naivete that happens, I think, with men and a naivete in marketing of like, but I'm sharing my work, so why aren't people buying? I'm being out there. I'm being helpful in the community. I'm. I'm, you know, so authentic. And so why aren't people buying? Because you don't understand why people buy. That's, you know, you understand your work, but not the marketing. And then the beauty is so important of can you do it? And again, this is dating for sure and marketing for sure. Can we do this in a way that everybody's glad you were there, that the, you know, if. If it's dating and you're going out on the town or at an event that when you leave, people like, I'm so glad that person came. They added something to the night. The night was more beautiful because they were there. So that's my. I'll start us off with that.

What? Well, okay, this. We've kind of opened up a little bit of a divergent path around dating because I can kind of hear some of my listeners being like, okay, so how do I, how do I market myself in dating? How do I, how do I get the sale? You know, I think that's, that's something that, you know, a lot of people question about. I think one of the interesting things just to talk about is just to pull in the thread of, of the pickup culture is that it, the, the parts of it that were unsavory were really about you turning yourself into something that you weren't or are not in order to close.

Yeah, that's. And that. But that second part of the sentence is the key part.

In order to close. Because as soon as my agenda becomes I want to get you to do something.

I'm going to manipulate. I'll try not to. I'll try to do it ethically, but if that doesn't work, I'll absolutely manipulate. If that's my core goal. If my goal is that by the time I leave this conversation, you have put down your credit card and paid. All manner of manipulation comes in and gets justified by that agenda, which is, again, hidden. It's never talked about in sales. Nobody says it. But the same in dating. I mean, how rare is it that a guy might go up to him and say, hey, look, I'm just feeling profoundly lonely tonight and, you know, kind of turned on and do you want to just hook up to.

That might be the truth, but it's almost never said. And so then there's all these games that get played, you know, on both sides. There's, there's a lot of.

Corroboration from, from both sides on this and, and co. Conspiracy on the thing.

But yeah, it's that hidden agenda. And then we feel like we have to change. And this the question, you know, you're saying guys might be wondering, well, how do I get the sale in dating? You. You don't. That you have to drop that agenda to get the sale. And it doesn't mean that, okay, we flip to giving something and that that's better because then we're, we're just back in the nice guy thing. It's. I made a distinction a few months ago that there's three. Three things there's so most marketing, there's a lot of getting involved. How do I get the sale? Right. So then people think, oh, we flip it to giving so we'd be generous. But often that's just. It's not an alternative, it's a twin because it's still giving for what wealth to get the sale. If you're generous enough, then eventually people are going to want to give. Right. They feel so guilty. I don't know. But there's a third G I would put, which is a better approach, which is gauging, you know, that you're, you're testing before you're investing. You're, you're just seeing, is this a fit? And so for, for most guys, this is the thing I didn't want to hear, and I think most guys don't want to hear, especially when it's just all hormones and, and all that is, is, well, do you actually know what you want in a relationship? Do you know what you're really looking for? Are you willing to stick to that and lose somebody because you have a conversation and you ask some of the tough questions and then they give an answer? That's a real deal breaker for you. Are you willing to just say, you know, that's a deal breaker for me, and this has been delightful. I've really enjoyed my time. And this isn't going to work out. That kind of gauging, that testing of. Is this a fit? Just at every level, every moment of constantly. Is this a match? And what about for this? Is it a match? And I remember a relationship coach who was a client of mine. She had a great line. She said, authenticity in relationship means that you're willing to risk the entire relationship in every moment. You're willing to put the whole thing on the table to be true.

Not that you're pushing people away, but you're willing to tell the truth of where you are and what you're wanting and what you're needing, knowing that that might possibly end the whole thing. And so in dating, of course, God, who wants to do that? You're having a great date, the vibe's great. And then you realize, oh, there's a. I should ask this, because if I don't, this might not be a fit. And then we just skip it. And of course it explodes later. And that when did you know this, how you could have asked? And it's all sorts of drama for us and disappointment, heartbreak for them, or, or vice versa. Yeah.

So gauging, let's go with the dating first, and then, and then Sort of marketing after gauging, in a dating sense would be. Would be what? Gauging whether or not there's interest, there's shared values, that the person is like leaning into you versus pulling away from you. What are some of the things that guys could look for in a. In a dating environment from a gauging perspective? Well, because it sounds like that's a reorientation of your.

Your viewpoint.

Yeah. Well, I remember. I think it was in the game, Neil Strauss talked about this, where he said he went. He would go into the bathroom on a date. You know, he'd be out and he'd go into the bathroom and he'd just ask himself, how is this going? And he'd actually just check in with himself. Because it's very easy in the momentum to ignore the signals we're getting from other people, to ignore the signals in our own body of. I'm actually feeling very anxious or scared.

Oh, I'm a little too excited. Or, you know what? I've been doing all the talking, and they haven't. I've asked all the questions. They haven't. So on a practical level, just give yourself a timeout if you're. If you're out on a date just to really breathe, check in with yourself. How is this going? How am I. Am I actually enjoying myself? Do I just think they're hot? Am I just interested at that level?

That's one. But you. We could also take. Break it down a bit more. We could say, one, is the level of chemistry just to check in with yourself.

First of. Is there chemistry? Is there actually a spark here? You know, because if you're gonna have a romantic relationship, there's got to be some zip somewhere.

Number two. Yeah. Is there compatibility and all that? You probably could speak to this a lot better than I could, but, yeah, on the values, on your politics, on your lifestyle. One of the things I say this, I think this translates directly to dating, is start with the deal breaker. If you're writing a sales page, I would love to see the deal breaker at the top of the page. Like, what's your most provocative, controversial stance? Start with that. Because most people look at a headline, they think the purpose of the headline is to seduce people, to get people to read the next thing. And I have the opposite perspective. It's like, well, sort of, yes, for the right people. But actually, to me, the purpose of the headline is to eliminate almost everybody. Almost everybody's gone. And then the sub headline, you, let's get rid of some more people. So you Know by the end of the sales letter, only people for whom this is actually a fit remain. And those people can't believe their luck that they came across something that was this good a fit. So. So filtering, like a water filter, you know, it's each stage of it, it cleans it a bit more, I think, of dating like that. Like, you don't. Anyways, so we start with the deal breaker. But if you're writing a dating profile, maybe you start with, like, the most controversial thing, like the thing you're scared to say. I have kids. I want kids right away. I'm looking to get married. I'm vaccinated. I'm unvaccinated. I'm a Jesus freak, I'm an atheist, whatever. You know, there might be something that's like, I don't want to share that. But if this is the kind of thing that for the other person might be a deal breaker, it's so kind just to put it on the table, you know.

So that would be my sense. But. So this gauging, I think, starts with an inner kind of clarity about the compatibility pieces. What do I actually want? Because there's some things that are musts, like this must be there in a relationship or must not. And there's some that's like, it's a should. That'd be nice. So I think the gauging starts with the inner gauging, the inner discernment of what do I really want? What am I actually looking for? And to be. Because. And what you might be looking for. I don't know. You're young. I was like, I just want to hook up and. And this, you know, and it's okay. There's going to be consequences to that that you may not like, but at least you're honest with yourself about what you want, so you're not lying to anybody.

Or you might just be saying, you know, I'm looking for a polyamorous thing, or I'm looking for a. For marriage. I'm looking for some other something. And I think it's one of the deepest troubles in relationship is we're so out of touch with ourselves and what we want. And so then how can you filter? You're trying to filter for what? Well, you know, then you get the. Well, how long you been dating this person? A few years. How's it going? What do you mean? That's okay. How long has it been since the beginning? What? Why didn't you break up? They're really happy. The other person is doing great. It's okay, so I'm sticking around. And. And people have this with clients too. They'll have a client, it's like, how's it working with that client? What do you mean? What. What is this? And they're scared, though, because if I say no to this client, then I'm not gonna get another. You know, it's this insane thoughts we have. And I just had this with somebody in my membership. They said on the marketing front, they'd had a conversation with a client and told them no, said, you know what? You're not. The person wanted to work with them, had the money, and they said no. And the next day, somebody who was such a perfect fit they couldn't have dreamed of a better fit said, I'm in. But if you fill up your days with clients that are sort of mediocre or really not a fit, you don't have the space for the good ones.

Yeah, I remember reading a book, 10x is easier than 2x, and made some interesting stuff in the book. But I think one of the main takeaways was.

One of the fastest ways to scale is to cut out the things that are like loose change and fat within the business and focus in on the. The one thing that is either bringing in profitability or is actually going to have the possibility of scaling. And they give a whole bunch of different examples of how all these different companies, you know, had whatever, 10 SKUs or 10 products and, you know, one of them was doing relatively well and you know, the rest, the other nine were sort of bringing in whatever it was, 60 of the business revenue and they decided to go all in on the one product and they ended up in the next, you know, 2 to 3 years or 4 years, 10 Xing the business or 20 Xing the business. And I think it's a very interesting thing that we, we sometimes are. I mean, you know, in dating, I think there's probably.

There'S a use case for, what do they call, like spinning plates, right? Like date multiple people and kind of get us to a gauge of whether or not, you know, especially if you're just going out on dates and whatnot, that can be very helpful. But I think in, in business and how. And maybe even how we market ourselves, like, there is a use case also for just going super deep on. On one, you know, one person or one product.

Well, here would be, with two thoughts, my first question. Why do you think people have such a hard time letting go of the things that aren't working? You know, they've got this one product and it's, and why, why is that?

It's the sunk cost bias, sunk cost fallacy that, that we've, because we've invested time and effort and energy into something, it is incredibly hard for us to let it go. Like we have a psychological and emotional attachment to it. I'm sure there's something else out there, but that's the first thing that comes to mind.

The one that came to my mind is that we're not good with, with grief.

You know, that we were. There's a people pleasing thing that's happening. It's like, but if I stop that, then these people are going to be upset. I'm not going to be able to help these people. And that's sad because, oh, this product was actually helpful for certain people. This service I offered was beneficial and if I let go of that, people might be disappointed, people might be upset and I don't get to help them anymore. And that's, that's so sad. And so then people, instead of feeling sad, instead of feeling the real grief of man, I'm letting go of something because it's easy to let go of something you don't give a shit about. But when it's something you actually care about, that's very hard. And, and the way I could translate this to dating a bit is we could think of it as.

There'S a certain type of person. Not just that there's one person, but you might get clear, like, actually I'm looking for a very specific something, but you're dating outside of that. You know, you've got a bullseye of who you're looking for, but you're dating two, three, four rings out, some of them not even hitting the board. And there is a sadness of like, okay, if I give up dating certain kinds of people.

That was easy and fun and some drama, but it's like, okay, but is it what you actually want? Like in your heart of hearts when you get real quiet, what are you yearning for relationship wise? What's the type of person and are you willing to stop dating outside of that because it's fun, because you're aroused, because you're lonely, because they want to date you and they want to spend time with you. Are you really willing to hone in on, on the. You're, you know, in business? I talk a lot about ideal client and the notion that for me the two most important things, one is that they light you up. I mean, you're genuinely delighted to work with these clients and number two, that they make progress that they're gonna. Something's gonna happen. And so I suppose for relationships it would be, yeah, they light you up. You're really genuinely, effortlessly delighted being around them. But two, the relationship will make progress. Like, this is actually going to go in a direction that you want. And it takes courage to put the. Draw the line in the sand and say, okay, I've been dating. It's good to know. There is the testing time. I'm with you. There's a time where you just got to get out there. Most of us weren't socialized well. We don't even know what we want. So sometimes you have to get out there and just try. But then it's important to know when to shift gears. It's like, okay, you've been going around in first gear for a while, and that's been fun, and you're just dithering. But, you know, you got to know when to get into second or third or fourth or fifth in terms of commitment and a relationship. And I think. I don't know. I imagine you have clients who are like, they stuck around in the dithering a little too long, and it's. And it's cost them.

Yeah, we have a tendency, it seems, to continue doing what we know and avoiding the unknown. And I think that's very, very true within dating. I think it's very true within business. And so we kind of get in these patterns and these ways of being, and there's a certain comfort level to them that I think we don't want to venture outside of. And I think in general, our tolerance for risk has decreased immensely. I think that the generationally. Our tolerance for risk, especially the. The younger generations. Like, I, you know, I have a large following of men 18 to, you know, 35, that I see it in the comments, I see it in the dms that I get where they're like, I am terrified of taking a risk. I'm terrified of. I mean, just to use a dating example, there was a study by date psychology. I don't know what the sample size was, so, you know, take this with the grains of salt. But they found that 45% of men between 18 and 25 haven't approached a woman in real life ever. They've never approached a woman for a date. 45%, 45% of 18 to 25. I'm like, good Lord, you know, and so I think our roast. Our risk profile has dramatically gone down, but our expectations have relatively stayed the same.

Oh, man, that's so brutal. I mean, I was One of those guys. And that's why I got into the dating and pickup stuff is it was such a, you know, you sit there at the cafe and there's that beautiful woman. You think, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna say hi for sure. Okay. I haven't said, okay, I'm gonna count down from three. Is three, two, one. Still sitting here. Okay. But I swear to God, I'm gonna, You know, I just remember, you know, she'd leave and the relief I would feel would be just, oh, thank God. And then, but then I would immediately pray to God and say, if I see her again, I swear I'll approach her next, you know, never would. And it's, it's similar in business too. You know, where.

So you meet somebody who could be a potential client, or let's say a potential hub, somebody who could introduce you to other clients. And there's a real question of just what do I say?

And for the lack of the having the right words or even, you know, some direction of where to go, people get stuck. And they, they, they just never do anything. So they never talk to somebody about being a potential client because they don't want to offend them. They don't want to be pushy. They don't approach that potential hub because, yeah, they, they don't want to seem like they're just using that person. And it's. So. Yeah, I see the parallel.

Yeah, I mean, it's, I think it's a very, it's a very interesting time. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs, especially in, you know, the online space, that they have to put themselves out there. I think it's a very similar thing. There's a big fear of, you know, what if I put myself out there? What if people don't like me? What if people disagree with me? And it does seem like the people who gain a lot of traction, momentum, they, they do what you were talking about with dating, like, they put the, they put the stuff with like, I'm a gun toting, maga, Trump voting, Jesus loving, you know, or on the other side, like blue haired.

Yeah.

Trip quadruple vaxed, you know, double mask wearing, et cetera, et cetera. And, and it's Trump hating. You know, it's like, like that's, that's what gets forward. But then there's this conglomeration that happens of, of people being like, oh, okay, you're for me. Oh, okay, you're not for me. And, and it's almost like we're wanting to sword. I I think there's, you know, there's other larger ramifications that I think that has, which is that socially we are getting much more siloed than we ever have before. And I think that people's capacity for disagreement has almost fallen off a cliff. Like, I think people's ability to maintain relationships specifically and disagree has really been hindered because of that, which I think is dangerous.

But let's, let's come back before. Or do you want to comment on that maybe?

Yeah. Well, I'm curious for you. So you've just named two things that are sort of in abeyance that have become relatively fugitive in our times. One is approaching. There's, you know, just. Men are not approaching women. They're too scared. So there's a courage deficit. But there's also this.

Difficulty to disagree and stay in connection. The polarizing that's happening. And do you see a relationship between those two.

Sorry? Between the disagreement and like the lack.

Of courage, you're saying, you know, to approach a woman. The, the. I can't remember what you said. That there's a real. Taking the risk, right?

Yeah.

So the risk is ability to take risks gone down and ability to agree to disagree and has gone down.

I would say so. I mean, I think there's a.

Shrinking tolerance of threshold within people for unwanted emotional and psychological states. And when you take a risk, it feels undesirable. Often, I mean, what you're talking about with approaching that girl, right, like, or approaching the woman of like, okay, I'm going to go over there. Your heart's beating, your respiratory rates up, like, you know, cortisol is coursing through your veins. The same thing happens when you disagree with somebody. Right. It's like if you disagree with somebody, it's uncomfortable. And so I think our tolerance and threshold level for maintaining a state of being okay with being uncomfortable, whether it's in risk or whether it's in disagreeing with somebody, has shrunk. And we've moved into this place where more and more people are saying, I, I just don't want to be uncomfortable. You know, I would just rather be comfortable. I would rather not feel uncomfortable in disagreeing with you or taking the risk. And so our capacity for taking action in the face of discomfort, I think has really been hindered. And I think that the men that are successful, you know, this is a man talk show, so we're just going to talk about men. But I think the men that are successful both in business, professionally and, and dating are the ones that are Willing to build up some tolerance in their own discomfort. I'm going to go and talk to that woman anyway. Even though it's uncomfortable, I'm going to put myself out there, you know, in my business. I'm gonna put my product out there even though it's uncomfortable. So what's your thoughts on that?

That's beautiful. Yeah, I had a. You said it better than I could have. But I had a similar sense. There's a kind of nervous system, bandwidth that has shrunk in terms of the level of sensation we can. We can hold and so we don't. And it's. I see this with clients where I just did this as an exercise around what I call point of view marketing. And I had them. I said, I'm gonna. You're gonna write the words I believe at the top of the page and I'm gonna set a timer for five minutes. And I want you to write down everything you believe about your business, your product, your service, your industry, the nature of the problem that people have. Just free write as fast as you can. I said, but the bias is towards the most controversial stuff, the stuff that you're like, if I put this on Facebook, I'd get canceled for sure. I'd lose friends. It's like this. You can burn this piece of paper after. You don't have to share. It's just for you. But just let her rip. Say the scary thing. Write it down. And people did. How was that? And there's this exhilarating and terrifying to even write it down. And I had people get in the little zoom rooms and share. And when one person came back, she said, it's the first time I've ever said that out loud. I've never actually given it voice. And what I told them is I said, I don't know. But I would bet a bunch of my shekels that if you shared that publicly, that would be the thing that got you the most response more than anything. That would be the email that gets you. The most positive response would be the social media post that gets shared the most commented on the most. I found this to be true. Now, the other side is true. You might get canceled, people might come at you, people might be upset. But in my experience, in the long term, once you get over the initial barrage of how could you? And you betrayed us all. And if it's that extreme, there's. You attract these people who are actually a fit for you. You attract the kind of people who. Who you'd. You'd want in your Sphere as clients. So.

It'S. And it's frightening. So sometimes it's like you just have to start small. You have to titrate it. And it's worth, you know, just to give some mercy because it can sound like, well, what we're saying is, you know, the real legit masculine thing is just get out there and grind. And.

You know, comfort is a medicine too. Comfort and adversity. These are both medicines. And they're not exactly opposites of each other. They're just different parts of the same story. And it's the hard thing. I mean, this goes back to the gauging. Is.

There is such a thing as too much adversity? I remember, like, I lived in Victoria and we do the cold dips in the ocean and, you know, we'd be there, you know, six minutes sometimes. And one day we just had a really interesting conversation in there and got out. I was 16 minutes and I went home and I had a 20 minute hot shower and I was still cold. At the end of that, I thought, okay, let's we, no need to be a hero about this. So there's such a thing as too much. You know, there's such a thing as you just blow your circuits, be like, okay, I'm just gonna go. I've never approached a woman before, and I'm now going to go to approach the hottest woman I've ever met. You're probably just going to get blown out because just you're not ready. I haven't built the muscle for it.

Yeah, I'm going to go to a Victoria's Secret model meet and just ask out every, every woman there. Right.

And. And you'll, you'll almost. Yeah. Be blown out, possibly viciously. Although I think you've probably found this too, in a lot of your clients. The rejection usually isn't that bad. That was the thing that floored me when I started approaching women, aside from the. Okay. There was the occasional dilly, just would stare at me, you know, but I thought, I guess slapped and. And they were mostly. Wow, thank you. I'm so flattered that you would, you know, so. But yeah, so. So there is such a thing as too much comfort. That's true. You just, you're. You coddling yourself and you're not pushing yourself. And there's such a thing as too much adversity. And that's the gauging too, is where am I? What's the medicine that I need right now? And you may not know, which is why getting a coach around this can be very helpful. Somebody who can honestly reflect to you what they see. And it's like, okay, I think you're pushing yourself too hard and you got to take it easy and take care of yourself. Or you could probably leave the house at some point this week and, you know, consider just saying hello to people and it doesn't all have to happen at once. And the same with marketing. You know, I find it with marketing, people have told me that they, you know, join my membership or they follow my stuff and maybe for like nine months and they don't do much with it because their sort of brain is being reoriented. I remember this with the dating stuff. For nine months I didn't approach anybody because it was just blowing my mind. That you could even talk to a woman and suggest going. It was so foreign to me. But then I started trying, you know, just a little bit at first. And so same in marketing, you know, you start to wrap your head around these things and you put yourself out there a little bit and then you find, oh, it's not so bad, hopefully.

Well, I want to, I want to dive a little bit into marketing, specific marketing proper, which is. And where I actually want to go. Because I think the landscape is changing quite rapidly right now. You know, whether. I mean, I see it within the sort of, whatever you want to call it, personal branding.

Personal development, self help space. I see things really rapidly changing right now. And I don't think most people.

Get how quick things are changing. But what I'm really curious about is how do you think that AI is going to change how we are marketed too? And then I want to talk about how we market, but I want to talk about how is AI going to change how we are marketed to first?

I don't know is a good question. It's not an area I've focused a lot other than. I'll give a little example. When the fires were happening in Maui.

Three days after the fire started on Amazon, there was a book being sold about the connection between the Maui fires and climate change.

That book clearly had to have been written by AI. Yeah, and an AI art cover and boom, boom, it's out and it's being sold.

I bought a book for my friend Stephanie mackay around Myth. And she was into, I know she's into kind of Siberian, Mongolian shamanism. Here was a book about it. I got it. It was such a piece of shit. I read through it and it was clearly written by AI. It was things like Siberian shamans sometimes use drums. They're often around it was just, wow, okay, this is. And I, I gave it to her. I said, this may just be kindling for your fire. Literally, it seems terrible and useless. So there's going to be a lot more schlock, number one.

There's going to be more targeted ads, which I don't know if that's good or bad or. But I think that's probably the reality we're going to see.

I am not concerned about AI from a marketing standpoint overall, because my experience is that the more things change, the more they stay the same, or the. There's certain things that change. The surface changes, but the fundamentals don't change. You know, in my understanding, there's these sort of seven fundamentals in marketing. So one is how you share your work. That's like the tip of the pyramid. Yeah. And people just got to find a way to share. Now, AI is a tool that people may choose to use in terms of ads. And in fact, if you're doing meta ads, I think you're just basically already using it.

And you. So you may decide to use it or ChatGPT or Claude IO or whatever the thing is. And it can help. But here's a concern. So in terms of how we share, part of this is like the copywriting. So now more and more people are going to be leaning on AI for copywriting. The challenge with this is, I don't know, for iterating, for brainstorming, fine. But there's something about the rigor of doing it yourself. There's something about the rigor of. In writing the piece, you're learning your own point of view.

Have you written a book, Connor? I have. Okay, so you probably had the same experience I did. As you're writing the book, new ideas are coming to you that were not there when you started writing. So if you have AI do that, no new ideas, you know, you say, oh, AI go through all my previous content and turn it into a book. It'll do that, but it's not going to then take the leap that would come from doing the writing. When you do your own sales copy and you really sit down and you think it through.

It makes you better at what you do because it clarifies how you see things. You have to find the words, and if you outsource that to a machine, you know it's no good. So I think one of the consequences of all this AI is there's going to be a lot more. This strange mix of. This is the first time I've been thinking about this but.

On one hand, the ads being much more targeted. I mean, just nailing it on the messaging so you want to buy and yet the product being so much worse.

Because the rigor hasn't been taken. So, you know, at the tip of the pyramid, we got, how do you share it then? Underneath that we've got this whole thing of hubs and building relationships. And AI is not going to build you relationships with people. And most of marketing comes from word of mouth and endorsements from people we trust. I won't do that. And if you try to outsource that to AI, you're going to hurt yourself. Beneath that, we've got the business model and structure. This is a place I think I might actually have something to say. If some AI was savvy and business model could give you some ideas. But still, you're going to have to figure out what works for you.

What model is going to be best for you. And that starts with the lifestyle you want to have. How do you want to live your life? And if you don't take that into account and you just take an off the rack AI generated business model for somebody like you, this may really hurt you and work against you. Underneath that business model, we got the point of view marketing. And this to me is the mother. It's like, I just don't know why people don't talk about this more in marketing. You, you know, if you don't, if they don't buy the concept, they're not going to buy the course. If they don't buy the diagnosis, they're not buying the prescription. So the unique angle that you have is everything in marketing. It's the thing that's going to get you invited onto podcasts. It's the thing that's going to.

Have people lean in and trust you or lean away because they disagree so much. And AI is not capable of creating opinions, it's capable of mimicking or.

You know, I've just, I know when people send me something that's AI generated, I just read it and I can tell there's no human voice in it. So, you know, underneath point of view, we got niching and AI is not going to figure out your niche for you. And then under that we have ethics. And now there are people doing beautiful. There is this app, Claude IO.

You know, which I think is doing some very ethical things. There's people struggling and trying and contending with that. But there's, I don't think there's anything in AI that is inherently ethical. There's no soul in it and no conscience, which is the basis of ethics.

And etc. So I, I don't mind. There's all this AI stuff. Great. I'm going to stand out even better because I think in it, we're living in a day and age where more and more is synthetic and people are craving the organic more and more. We're living in a day and age where everything is sterile and people want the fertile, people want something real in the face of all this.

Synthetic stuff. So I think that's one of the big, I mean, polarities is coming. Wendell Berry, the poet farmer, he had a line where he said something like, it's not too hard to imagine that the dividing line in the future will be between those who want to live as a machine and those who want to live as a creature. And so you go down the AI road. The danger is not really that machines are going to learn to think like people. The danger is that people are going to start to think like machines. That's the danger. And the more we engage with this stuff, the more that, that becomes our brain and that we outsource our thinking. It makes us weak, it makes us more risk averse to think any unique thoughts, to have any rigor. It's like you're just not working out anymore. So you're not physical muscles, but your mental muscles get weak. And I think the people who do their own work, who really think through their niche and their point of view, who build relationships long term, are going to be a lot more successful, are going to stand out profoundly more than some bullshit Instagram account that's AI driven, that will become maybe very popular, but develop no loyalty.

Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, this is a topic that I've kind of gone down the rabbit hole a little bit on more and more because I think there's, there's a lot of conversation around. You know, you look at something like Sora, which is an AI video generated platform, right? So it's artificially intelligent generated video. And I think one of the things that is, it will be interesting to see how it plays out is that in the not so distant future we will have completely synthesized.

You know, digital people online that have been, you know, the voice has been AI generated, the video has been AI generated, the text has been AI generated and you'll, you know, you'll theoretically just be able to create. And this is happening right now, not at a very high level, but soon that's going to change. You're going to be able to create a Completely fabricated person that can sell a product or a service. And so, you know, you as an individual who maybe is, you know, not proficient or feels insecure with being on camera and talking and sharing your message, you can create a business around even an AI replicated version of you. You know, it might look like you and that that entity will be able to sort of like be fabricated and share the message and blah, blah, blah. And so I do think that the content landscape is going to dramatically change and how we, how we get sold to is going to change. I think it's going to niche down quite a bit. Like you're going to have AI ads that are, you know, really tailored based on your profile and your, you know, this sort of like the tracking that happens. And I think it's going to be interesting. I think, I think you're right. I think you're really right in the sense that there's this kind of divide of people who don't mind that sort of synthetic marketing, you know, that's like, clearly been chatgpt, you know, curated, where they're like, okay, I get what I'm getting here, you know, no big deal. And then people who are really longing for that human connection, it's like, oh, a person wrote this, you know, And I do think that in the future we'll have books that, that are likely very good, that are AI curated, that are AI generated with human assistance, and we'll probably start to mark, you know, this book was written by a person, this podcast is a real person. And, you know, I think people will get to choose whether or not they either engage with the synthetic version of you, and that's sort of like an entry point. And then further down the line, they get to engage with like the real version of you.

Right. Well, and, but check this out. So, you know, earlier we were talking about there's in dating, the fear of approaching our business, this kind of fear of being seen, putting yourself out there. There's a bit of this imposter syndrome that people have. Imagine the imposter syndrome somebody's going to have when they're competing against the AI version of themselves, right, which doesn't have the physical blemishes that they have. Hasn't aged quite like they have. Is always happy and smiling and charming and, and courteous with people in ways that they can't seem to be. I mean, my God, it's just you're. You're competing against some imagined perfection. And the other thing, I'd say, you know, to go back to the the beginning. So the, the, these three things, the ethics, effectiveness and beauty. I'd say the AI, where it probably has humans beat already is the effectiveness and just straight it gets the results. Hard to beat it. You can write a book in minutes.

But on the ethics side it doesn't. And to me, the long term success, boy, this is true in business and in dating that your long term success is reputation almost entirely. It's something that we never got put in a lot of the dating and pickup books that ought to have been. The first thing is, hey, if you're sketchy, you're going to get a reputation and then you're going to approach a woman who you actually care about, who moves something in you that you've never felt moved before and your heart is genuinely pierced.

With this sort of holy devotion to this woman. And then you approach her and she's lit up and you have a great conversation and then she talks to her friends who tell stories about you and you never hear from her again. So, you know, in the long term, this ethics thing, the reputation plays out and the AI.

If its sole goal is to get people to buy so. Right. Targeted ads just literally for this person.

And it's able to do that? Well, yeah, maybe it gets that person to buy, but maybe that person wasn't supposed to buy. Maybe it wasn't the right time. Maybe this actually wasn't a fit. So now what do you have? You've got somebody who's pissed off in the marketplace about you and that wasn't free for you, by the way. You spent money on the AI generating the ad for that specific person. So now you've spent money to have somebody upset and complain about you. And now you got this word of mouth, you know, that's negative. And then on the beauty front, it's. I mean the AI can do some kind of synthetic beauty, but the kind of beauty I'm talking about, this, this soul, this artistic thing, AI doesn't know anything about that. It can't do that. AI is not going to make the world more beautiful.

You know, says me. Fair.

That's fair, man. That's fair. Well, I think where I'd like to maybe sort of land the plane is for the people that are out there that do have to market themselves, whether it's within their profession. Right. They're, you know, they're wanting to go for a promotion and that, that's a certain type of marketing, how you position yourself or they're an independent entrepreneur. What are some of the key things that people can start to implement from an ethical marketing standpoint.

Yeah. Very first thing.

Is decide that your intention going into any interaction is to get to the truth, not to get to the sale. And the truth of what is this a fit? So that you're walking in with an attitude of filtering, not pushing, not selling, not seducing. You're really trying to see is this a fit for both of you. And if you have the sense on either side, it's not a fit, it's no deal. Or you keep talking about it, but you're not having the conversation with the end goal that they buy, that success at the end of that conversation is we got to the truth, this isn't a good match. So that's number one. Number two, you can work backwards from that intention and think, okay, well I don't want to waste my time.

So maybe I should get clear about what it is that I'm wanting and figure out how do I filter for that right away so that, for example, maybe I don't need to sit down with a client then. So many of my people, my clients are coaches who do discovery sessions. But then a lot of those people don't buy. So I'm like, why did you talk to that person in the first place? Couldn't you have filtered that person out? And most of the time with a. I've got a page on it for a number of products called the are you sure? Page. And people go click the purchase button, but instead of taking them to the payment, it takes them to a page where it's like you want to buy, but let's just slow down a second. You probably didn't actually read the sales page because who does? But there's important stuff there for filtering. And I've put that most important stuff below and I'm going to ask that you actually read it right now and if it's still a fit, now you can buy. So you can start to get clear about what those filters are. And then I think, can I just.

Touch on that one first really quick? I think it's interesting because your frame, like this ethical marketing firm that we're talking about is operating not from a place of scarcity, which is oftentimes where entrepreneurs, you know, people dating people in a professional standpoint, it's really where they're operating from, is oh my gosh, I gotta get the sale, I gotta scale, I gotta, you know, I gotta close whatever it is. And it's, it's a very scarcity based mentality. And so I think it's A very abrupt reframe, I would imagine for some people to say, hold on, you're actually, you're going to put a. Because I think in most traditional marketing that would be classified as a barrier to entry. That's like you're creating another step before the purchase. And a lot of the marketing out there is, is really about reduce all the steps to marketing. Right, but what you're saying is create alignment. Right. Like market for alignment. And if you can assure alignment, then not only are you going to quote, unquote, get the sale, but you're going to ensure what? Longevity, satisfaction, fulfillment, both for you and the other person.

Yeah. Better word of mouth after. Because if you filter and you get a really aligned deal, then they're going to get results, they're going to love the product and because of that they're going to rave to everybody. And now for the same price that you paid for a shitty client, you're getting so much bang for the buck. You're getting all this, you know, rave reviews where people say, oh my God, that was amazing. You know, I could, yes, I could stand up in front of a group of people and use all the Robert Cialdini's, you know, Six Laws of Unconscious persuasion. And I could use all the NLP and all the, you know, some of these tactics. And the truth is they work. I could set things up that get an inordinately number of high people to buy. But what I that won't do is get them to be loyal. Like I remember hearing a colleague of mine in the UK was at one of these big sales rallies and there were six speakers and they're all selling their things at the back of the room, all their programs. And I think at the end of the day was like a million dollars in sales in one day. And then he said, but guess how many, what percentage of people asked for a refund the next day? What would you guess?

Oh, man. Depends on how much the ticket price was, but probably something ridiculous like 20.

25% people asked for a refund.

Yeah.

No, 90.

Yeah. Nine. Zero. Almost everybody asked for a refund. So, you know what I'm saying? You can use these tactics and they can get somebody to say yes in the moment. It's the same thing with the dating and pickup. I mean, if you're a guy and you know what you're doing and you, you can create all this excitement in women and then the, the crushing regret they have the next morning when they.

Realize it's almost like the guy that's really Good at sexting, but then, you know, has the performance anxiety in the moment. You know, it's like here you're all, you're all talk, no bite.

Yeah, yeah. Or, or you, you create such excitement and this sense that maybe something is possible. The sense that, oh, maybe we could be a thing and this is something special, which is this straight seduction. And then there's the heartbreak on the other side.

And so, yeah, in business there's that, oh, yeah, this is going to help you. This will cure you. This will do all these things and then it doesn't. And so you can just filter so that as a tactical thing.

It, you can ask yourself, okay, number one, if it's a service that I have, what's the problem I want to solve? And like you were saying earlier, like, pick one. There's a lot of things you could solve, but consider setting them all down. Say, I'm going to have one problem that I solved. Number two, what are the musts, what are the deal breakers that I need to have in a client? Like, I know what my side of the bargain is, but what's their side of the bargain? What am I looking for? Number three, what are the things that would just be great. It'd be real nice if it was true about these clients. If you get clear about those, number one, you'll stop hearing from so many people who are tire kickers. But the ones who get through will just like, I can't. I'm. This is amazing. I'm into these things too. And this program is exactly what I need. And those are the people you're going to love working with, who are going to make progress, who they're going to bring, all their friends. So it's in the short term, the manipulative shit works better. It's more effective. But the challenge is effectiveness on its own in the long term is not effective. It's when you bring in the ethics and the beauty in the long term, that's what's effective. There's a larger sense of effectiveness to look at.

And also both in marketing and dating, just to consider this.

What would the consequence be to the dating world, to the market, if everyone marketed in the way you're imagining marketing or dating, what would it do? Because often the impact would be nobody trusts anybody anymore. And that's not even a hypothetical scenario. That's where we're at. We're living out the consequence of people in all manner of relationships engaging in shady ways, myself included. And then it's not just me that has to deal with the long term consequences. It's all the younger men coming up who now have to deal with the trouble that I made for them and, you know, that we all have together. So.

So let's not do that anymore. You know, there's, there's, there's a more beautiful way to be. Martin Praktel has a beautiful line where he said being beautiful on the way to the answer is the answer.

That's wonderful. Wonderful. I feel like that's a good place for us to pause, tell people where they can go to follow along with you and your work.

Well, if you want to learn about my marketing work, you can go to marketingforhippies.com and I also write on substack. I think it's tadhargrave.substack.com beauty.

Well, we'll have the links to that in the show. Notes for everybody that's out there. Don't forget to man it forward and share this podcast with somebody that you know will enjoy the conversation. Maybe a good dialogue for you to have with somebody in your life. Until next week. As always, Connor Beaton signing off. See you next time.