Don't get stuck with TOO much knowledge & no action - Kevin Miller

We can get so much knowledge that we never take action on. It's not a revolutionary statement at all, but I think most of the profound things aren't that revolutionary. When I wrote my book, Connor, maybe you'll probably relate. I wrote my book and I was dang, man. So I got a lot of knowledge, and I'm going to write about this in here. And son of a gun, if I haven't ever done anything about it, which means I haven't learned. So to go from knowledge to learning, find out what do you need, get some knowledge, and now take action on it. Maybe this year, instead of reading four books a month, you read one book a month. Or maybe you read one book for the whole year and study that sucker and actually change your life. Can you get to the end of the year? You know, we always get to the year and make our goals. I'm going to read 100 books. I'm going to do whatever. So I look from the back backwards and go, what did I actually take action? What did I change as a result of? And a lot of times you'll hear, you know what? There was this one podcast and this one person who said this thing, man, I changed from that. That's. That's.

That's what we're looking for.

All right, Kevin, welcome to the Man Talk Show. How you doing today, man?

I'm great. I'm. I've been looking forward to this. I'm so honored to we get to talk again. It was just, what, a week ago, two weeks ago that you were on my show and we got to connect, and I love having the context, and I've had a couple shows with your wife, Vienna, and so to be back with you, I feel like we're. We're connecting.

It's.

It's awesome.

Heck, yeah. I appreciate that. And we. I mean, we had a great conversation. I really enjoyed my time on your show, and I do hope that people go and check that out, because it was a solid one. I see. Got my. My book back there still. That's. That's an hon.

Honor.

Thank you.

Absolutely. I've been talking. I told you. I've been talking about you and the book and the message. So, yeah, I'm intrigued.

Awesome, man.

Well.

And you got your book to the. To the other side, so we'll be talking about that in a sec. But before we dive into anything, got to do what we got to do here, which is tell us a story about a defining moment in your life that made you who you are today.

I. My first temptation was, you know, to give some great story, something inspiring. But to be honest, the first thing that came to mind, it's because it has come up multiple times. Matter of fact, it might have come up last week when I talked with your wife, Vienna. We did a show together and I think I referenced it and it was. I need to go back so I can. I referenced it enough. I need to look at the timeline. Was it three years ago? Was it five years ago? It's probably always longer than I thought. So let's say five years ago. I know where I was. I was on my property. I was crossing one of the driveways and I was taking care of something regarding a car for I think a kid, one of my kids or something. And it had nothing to do with them. It only had to do with me realizing how bitter I was at doing everything. That's what my personality style, you know, is do everything, fix everything, be Superman, be God. And I was. What hit me is I'm not limitless. That's been my life. You're limitless. No excuses. Which works great as a pro athlete, but that's how I was living my life. And it was a big dawning of I am not limitless. And it was really hard to swallow. It was a little discombobulating to realize that to go, here I am and I'm just not. And it stopped me in my tracks. It wasn't like a 180, like I woke up the next morning with a new lease on life or depressed either way. But it was the start of maybe a slow ripple effect that's honestly still taking place. But it was the start of me going, this is not working, and disentangling myself from my self image in regards to being limitless, no excuses. Taking care of everything has been difficult. I'm now finding peace in it. But for a long time, longer than I care to admit, it really just left me feeling I've lost my footing. So that was a big moment.

I think this is incredibly relatable. You know, I think when in the amount of people that I've worked with, men especially that have sort of grow up in an environment where that defend for themselves, they had to figure it out for themselves. They had to, you know, they had to get it right.

We can adopt this, this, you know, limitless mindset, right? This sort of I, I'm impenetrable, I'm invincible. I mean, heck, I gotta Superman tattoo when I was 18 because I loved the idea. I mean, I loved the story and I Loved what it represented in this dichotomy that, you know, the most powerful individual on the face of the planet would. Would dawn this character of this very meek, weak individual, right? This sort of plight of Clark Kent versus Superman. But it's interesting because you've done some really incredible things. And so I get what you're saying, right? You've pursued excellence, you've pursued greatness. I think in a, you know, you were in pro cycling.

Let's just pause there for a second. What, in your opinion, does it take to be a pro cyclist? Because that's a very specific sport that I see a lot of wild stuff around. There's some new documentaries out on Netflix.

What did it require of you personally? What did you have to give more.

Than everything, which is unique to the sport? It honestly is. And I don't mean that to offend other people. I mean, what you were talking about, being Superman, man, it. It. It's valuable on the battlefield. It's valuable on the sports field. It's valuable on the road, where I was racing. Because out there, what's. What's interesting with cycling, specifically road racing, is the draft issue. Everybody knows that from NASCAR and whatever. You know, drafting well in cycling, that's it. You're behind somebody and you're saving, you know, 30% or more, and that's everything. You've been watching the Tour de France. You hold on to the guy in front of you or the pack in front of you. If you don't, you're gone, you're popped. And. And that's the end of the. That's the end of the race. So if you're at the max, you are maxed out, and you're holding on to that draft, you got to go above it. I mean, you literally or you're literally gone. I mean, when I went to Europe for the first time and did races over, I raced for a Dutch, and they'd have these gnarly crosswinds, you know, and it would break the pack up, and you'd have to get in the gutter. And if you don't hold on and find a place in there, you're popped. Literally. I mean, you're gone. Like, race is over. The caravan passes you. And here I was, you know, this English dude left alone, and I'm lost in Holland. You know, the race is gone, man. So it was literal. So you give, you know, more than that. I had a buddy who was a cyclist, an elite cyclist, and he became a pro triathlete. He said, man, training for triathlons way harder than cycling. But racing doesn't compare. Nothing's like a bike race because you got to go above that. So again, back to that aspect. It served me well as a cyclist. I don't care how maxed out you are, you find something else that was great, got you on the podium. But I took that into my life and as my identity, and it didn't produce a lot of joy. It didn't produce much at all, at all. Peace still, you can, you know, you can win, you can win business sometimes with that, you can win, but not relationships and not, I think, at the end of the day, not peace. And I found myself at 52 years old, still wanting to achieve great things, but not at the sake of my peace. At the end of the day, man, I want to have some joy out of this day. And no achievement is worth getting rid of that anymore.

What would you say? You know, you seem to really love focusing on this notion of what, what drives you. Right. So title of your book. When I hear you about this.

This like, impossible task, you know, of pursuing this career, pursuing this athleticism, what drives somebody to go after something that so few people will become actually elite in? Because I think of something like cycling where it's like, yeah, you're.

You're right.

I mean, from what I know and from what I understand about something like cycling, you are giving absolutely everything to be one of the best in the world. And you're giving time, energy, effort, you're sacrificing relationships, you're pushing your body to real extremes. So can you just tell us a little bit about what drove you to move in that direction?

I think that was it. It was to be the best of the best of the best, to do the hardest thing. You know, if I had done gone the military route, I would have wanted to been, you know, whatever the elite special forces in. But again, it sounds great and sounds grandiose and I mean, there's a. There's a lot of cool stuff about it. However, looking back, it was so much just about me trying to feed my identity and that wasn't strength that I wish I could go back. I would have been. I was an incredibly mediocre pro cyclist, you know, so kudos for being a pro, but I was really mediocre because I.

That it was more of an ego thing. And sometimes we'd put more effort into a training ride with the other pros trying to, yeah, have an ego trip. And then we would in the race and show up at the race trashed From a training ride. It was just, it was, again, it was so ego driven. It really burnt me out on the sport. And it is a weird sport in some ways. It's glorious. And it's also a stupid sport. I mean, right now the Tour de France is ending 21 days. Imagine a running marathon and them doing it 21 days in a row. Or heck, the Super Bowl. We're going to have the Super bowl, same two teams, and they're going to play best out of 21. You know, I mean, it's just stupid. And to put guys on there, no wonder they're doing drugs if you don't, I mean, you can't recover from that stuff. Well, and, but I think that was it. It was, it was such a mountaintop. It was such a.

And you were never enough. You're only as good as your last result. And we, we knew that, we joked about it, but man, that was harsh.

I think that's the interesting part because that's what I'm wanting to dig into a little bit deeper is this sort of like drive for excellence, this pushing yourself beyond. I want to just drop in. I interviewed this gentleman, I can't remember for the life of me what his name was. This was years ago. And he runs a 3100 mile ultramarathon here in New York. And so people fly from over the. And I was just so fascinated by the conversation because I was like, this is ridiculous, I would never do this. But it was actually started by a swami that had moved to America from India and had started doing this, like, you know, this, this sort of track. And the funny thing is, is that the quote unquote track is around a city block in Brooklyn, I think. And it so literally people will come and over the course of seven weeks, eight weeks, every single day, they'll show up and they'll run as much as they can. And Whoever completes the 3,100 miles first wins. And I'm like, well, that's just a special type of torture, you know, like that's, that's not, that's just like, that seems like self mutilation, right? But, but there, there are people all over the world that want to go and do that. And when I hear you talk about cycling, I'm like, yeah, I get it. Excellence, pushing your body beyond. But where does that come from? Do you, do you think, is that, is that actually about excellence? You know, is there, was there a part of you personally, if we just dig into you, was there a part of you trying to prove Your parents wrong or somebody wrong in life? Were you trying to, to just go beyond what you thought other people thought you would do? Like, what was this kind of undercurrent for you emotionally and psychologically to push yourself to such extreme limits?

That's a great question and insight, Connor.

I, it's hard for me and I can't paint with too broad of a brush. My experience with myself and with other pro cyclists is.

How many of. That'd be a good question. How many of them were actually just, you know, striving healthfully for excellence? Man, I felt like most of us were, we were, we were feeding some demons. We were trying to prove to ourselves ultimately that we, we were trying to self validate and we were doing it through the accolades of others, but I think even to ourselves. I mean, there were, I remember somebody saying at one point, actually, I think it was that same, my same buddy who I lived with and somebody, a coach told him, said, man, every time you quit, it trains you to quit again. So even when you quit on a training ride. So that stuck in me. So I'm out on training ride and I'm not going to quit. It was like my perspective of there's a videotape on me at all times, somebody's going to see it. If I quit, I don't measure up. So I'm not even quitting on a train ride. And again, it sounds valiant and sounds like, yeah, you know, military, special forces type stuff. But you want to ask Bill, are you happy? Are you enjoying this, man? Was the race fun? Did you have a fun week of training? That wasn't a part of it. You just go out there and even like you're talking about some of the endurance stuff. I mean, I live here in the mountains of Colorado and it's, it's, it's again, it's great for people who want to do that, but I kind of got my fill of killing myself every day. I, I can do that. I can wake up every day and just destroy myself. I don't enjoy it anymore. Now I want to go out and just, and have fun with it. So yeah, I think there's a lot of self, you know, feeding the ego, self validation, trying to measure up to yourself and others. Because without that result, without that effort, without getting on the podium, who are you? I mean, that was, that was the identity.

You know, I've been interested in this intersection between excellence and addiction and this, this sort of notion that it's like, it seems to be a very fine line between you Know, being obsessed with something and striving for greatness, which almost takes on a kind of addictive quality in some ways, right, that you were, you know, pushing our limits. We have to do it every single day. We, you know, there's. There's. There's so many commonalities that I think the two share. I'm curious for you, what. What would you say is the. Are the lines between addiction and excellence? Do you have to be addicted to your craft in order to achieve excellence? Do you look at it as an addiction, or how do you define the differences? As somebody that's been in that world where excellence is the pursuit of.

It's interesting how, you know, looking back on guys that I raced with and see. Seeing that some of them never quit. They're still doing it today, you know, not at the elite pro. Well, not at the pro level, but maybe elite in their category, and they're winning national championships at 50, 60 years old in their age category. And again, it may be healthy, but, man, that's a great question. I had a therapist a couple years ago, Connor, and she said, kevin, I don't know if you're, you know, what. What falls over into addiction, but most of the stuff that you do, if you do it, you're pretty obsessed with it.

So addiction, I mean, I think from an exercise standpoint, that's probably been the most addictive thing for me. Like, I'm not okay. I actually quit racing for two years amidst my career. We had my first boy, and he had my first kid, and he had some medical problems. We ended up in the hospital for a long time, and I stopped. So for two years, I was out, and I was actually sedentary. I didn't really do anything at athletics, only two years of my entire life, and my wife finally got me a bike, conspired with a local bike shop, and not just got me a bike, but, like, got me a bike and said, go train. She said, please go train. You're just a better person when you. When you are. And at the time, I took that as a compliment and. And thought, yeah, I am now, though, I'm not so sure. I went, why can't I be a good person when I'm not competing, I'm not training? And I say that, Connor, and I'm. I'm doing it today. I still enter elite mountain bike races in my category, but I also, you know, can have a week go by and not do a whole lot, and I have a lot of joy in it. I've changed my perspective but it's still there. And so, you know, seeking excellence versus addiction. Because it's the same with my work. I've done that with work. I used to say I'm addicted to production and I didn't know how to play anymore. I didn't know how to have fun. I definitely didn't know how to chill out. First time we went to an all inclusive resort, my wife and I, we went out there and there's nothing to do. And so for after two hours, I said, oh my God, I've done all the nothing I can possibly do. What the hell are we going to do for five days out here? And it literally took a while and.

I've overcome that and I can do that now, but it was really hard. So, yeah, addiction versus excellence. I get to fine line. And what I'm learning, looking at myself now in the mirror and looking at guys like you and other guys who are doing great things is I'm kind of looking behind the scenes and going, are they having fun? Are they enjoying it? Do they have peace? And if they don't, I can't hardly tolerate it now, like, I'm seeking peace. I love driven people, I love inspired people. And I want some that can chill the heck out because I need that now. So now I'm. Maybe that's my new addiction.

Well, it's, it's interesting, right, because I think, you know, I've worked with so many men that are, you know, quote unquote, high performers, right? High performing athletes, entrepreneurs, artists, musicians, you name it. And some of them have had addictive pasts, some of them haven't. But I often wonder about, you know, the individuals who are seeking that excellence, whether it's in business or fitness in some place or sports. Like, if you didn't have that, would that behavior turn addiction oriented, you know, and, and could people that have traditional addictions? You know, I think about myself, I mean, I sort of cycled through a whole bunch of addictive behaviors growing up. You know, from food to porn to, you know, sex to booze, sometimes to weed. I mean, like, I really cycled through a bunch of them, unfortunately.

And shifting that behavior to something that's more generative, right? Working out. I work out six days a week now. It's not addictive. It's like, I can go, but I can definitely see that part that's like, how far can I take this, right? I've started doing MMA and muay Thai and kickboxing. I can see the part of myself that wants to play that out. To like, well, how good could I get at that? And could I compete? And it's like, well, I'm almost 40. But, like, does that matter? Can I go? Can I go down that path? And so, you know, I. I'm curious about this question. Maybe we'll come back to it. But I like this notion of figuring out what you're in it for, you know, because I all. I think that all of us have sometimes dark motivations, right, that, like, shame that's driving us.

And.

And then we have the lighter motivations, right? We want to be excellent at something. We want to pursue to see if we can, you know, achieve something. Phenomen. Phenomenal.

So one last question. I want to pivot to something else around parenting, because I have some questions for you, my friend. For those of you who are listening, you don't know, Kevin has nine kids. Nine, nine, nine, nine kids. Which is amazing. And I, like, I almost wanted to say, I thank you for your service because it's. That's incredible. But when you, when it comes to this pursuit of excellence, what have you found to be rewarding? Like, where have you really found that joy? Because you're talking about peace and you're talking about finding peace. What about that pursuit of excellence was really rewarding for you while you were in it. While you were in cycling? Because I think you still have excellence in what you do today, for sure, knowing you. Yeah.

Man, there were mountaintop experiences, obviously, and, you know, getting on the podium, literally winning money and. And especially in the early years, my early 20s, when you make a big step up, man, you get a big result in a big race. I mean, that was amazing. And even as I maybe talked negatively about it initially, I mean, that's for anybody in any sport, man, to achieve something. To see, man, I actually did the work and made a right move and it happened. And I'm on the podium. I have a picture. It's on my website at kevinmiller.co. there's a picture of me on the podium of a race. And it was at that timeline. It was a big, big race. And I'm proud of that today. I. I remember it. I remember it to the T, man. And that was awesome. Today I find myself, though. I mean, I still enjoy the achievements, but I. It was actually Robert Waldanger. He's the good life guy. He's got the TED talk with, you know, 45 million views or something, talking about happiness and. And he was on my show. He's been on a couple times, and he finally said, you Know I'm not so focused on the achievement these days as I am just enjoying the path that I'm on and that today, man, I can have. Yesterday, honest to God, yesterday I was in outside of Buena Vista, Colorado, Mount Princeton Hot Springs. We were staying at a cabin there and I went out on a ride and I thought I'd go out for a little ride and then jump off and go for a run. But I'm riding. It starts going up this mountain and I was just in the zone. I was just in the flow, man. There's no, there's nobody, Nobody's going to know about. Well now I'm telling people. So now somebody knows. But you know, nobody's going to know about it. There's no finish line. There's nothing. But I'm just looking. I can't believe my body can do this and that after all this time. And look at this scenery. And I was just in flow full out and that. I don't know if there is any. That's a mountaintop. That's a big experience right now. So it's, you know, it's shifted to some degree still like achievements. But I want to, I want to have the achievement of enjoying this day and having some time and flow and doing work that just is thrilling to creating. So I love to create something and find that thing that you do well and do it even if in and of itself maybe there's not some huge result. It was just a joyful doing.

Would you say, having you done any meditation? Do you meditate on a regular basis?

I. That's. That's the. One of the weaker links for me and the personal development, self help. But no, I do different variations of that. Yeah. We just had Jake Eagle on the show. His, his. His book is the Power of All about microdosing mindfulness. And that's really shifted. So even just moments and whatnot and having different types. So. Yes, but it's not a strongest suit for me.

Well, no, because I was listening to you talk about this journey up the mountain and it sounds very meditative, you know, this flow and it's almost. I wonder if there's. Do you think that there's much difference between being in a pure flow state like that and being in a true sort of traditional meditative state for you?

I'm not going to say one. You know, maybe they're different, I think is what the meditation experts would say. But yes, when I am in that place of flow, I am the, the most out of the fight or flight aspect and at peace. And my anxiety level, you know, is. Is so low when I'm meditating, I'm literally trying to sit there and be present. I'm. I'm often struggling still. I mean, I want to get past that. I think I can, but Struggling to quiet my mind, to not go off on a worry or an idea and excitement, to be present. And so when I In. And when I engage my body in something, I have mastery.

Or great comfort, familiarity, whatever, and I can zone out. Oh, it's just. Yeah, it's beautiful. It's one of the more. I mean, I, you know, I'm going to call it healthy. Healthy, whatever. But I'm also open to, you know, it's a form of meditation, of medication. Sorry, medication as well, that I am. I'm trying to. I'm trying to calm the demons.

Well, I mean, I think that's a, A. That's a great articulation of. I mean, I would say that meditation probably is the ultimate form of medication. Right? And it's the medication that we can take. It's. It's the hard pill, right? Because you gotta. You gotta sit there and you have to deal with whatever is arising within you. And I like this notion of flow being. I mean, I hear a lot of people, I've interviewed surfers and other pro athletes in football and just a number of different sports who all sort of talk about this flow state moment where it feels like the calm that people talk about within deep meditative states. And I think that that peace and that sort of inner tranquility. Right. Like I always say that my favorite word, my favorite concept is equanimity. Right. This balance in the face of chaos that I think is what. But in some ways, it's one of the main things that meditation is trying to teach us. But I think that we can find that at many different places. It sounds like you find this sense of equanimity on a bike. Am I roughly describing your experience?

Totally. Where it fully engages me, though, writing, sometimes writing. I love to take an idea, a concept and bring it to life, do a framework, and I can get lost in the writing of that. Honestly, Connor, doing this, though, just like you, I mean, you know, doing podcasts, I've been doing that for so long. I always love a discussion on. On, like what we're talking about something important, something I care about, something I'm invested in. And talking with you right now is somewhat of a flow state. I've gotten to recognize that because I am totally tuned in. I'm totally Engaged. This is an area. And I'm also, I am. I'm confident I have a level of mastery around this topic, the topics that we're talking about, and even having a conversation. And that is a flow state that, yeah, I find. So inspiration and joy and a level of. Of peace, literally.

Yeah, yeah, I agree entirely. And it's just. I was going to make a joke about how in the past, there were certainly guests where I had trouble getting into flow with, you know, like, when you're starting off the podcast, so you're like, you know, you're like in a conversation with somebody and you're like, I. I'm not enjoying this conversation. And so I can't imagine my listeners are going to enjoy this conversation. But, you know, I think I. I've finally found a sweet spot after, like, six, seven years of being able to tell who I'm going to really enjoy conversations with. And so let's switch into that other conversation that I was curious about before. This notion of, like, what drives you and this pursuit of excellence. I'm curious if that played into you parenting. So you have nine kids. So you have like a black belt, double black belt in parenting. So did you find this notion of, like, wanting to be the best, wanting to be excellence, this pursuit of perfection filtering into how you wanted to show up as a father?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, from day one.

My wife and I pursued excellence in parenting. We wanted to do a good job. We had great mentors. We had great resources. We were incredibly intentional. Now, I'm not saying that we were. Did everything as I would think it should be done, even now, looking back, but we were. Yeah, we pursued that and, you know, to some great results. And also we went. We went awry with some things. I spent yesterday with a couple of my daughters, and we talk openly about that now. We kind of have. We have a. We had three kids who are older because we thought we were done. And then we have a gap, and then we have the others, and so we can talk. So the older kids can. They can steer us. They can steer us sometimes here. Hey, you guys, you know, you did this with us, and that wasn't cool. Why don't you not do that with the little ones? And. But yeah, we did. Yet when you look at the number nine, I mean, that, that gives you a.

Perspective on someone. Generally, you think, okay, it's some religious thing, you know, or that's just their entire lives, and neither of which is me. I don't know. Honestly, part of it, it was just driving that's part of my book. And my message is driving. I'm driving. We're doing this, but not really with a goal in mind or counting the cost or with intentionality. We're just driving fast. And it's an interesting thing as I look at now, because you are so prone to advocate what you do, right? I don't advocate having nine kids, man. That's difficult. It still is today. I mean, here I am, 52 and I've got a 28 year old down to an 11 year old and now there's grandkids and I think I'm never going to be, you know, one of these empty nesters. And so it is, I mean, it's a, it's a lot. It's incredible. I wouldn't say. And I know I'm, you know, supposed to not regret that. Well, but I don't, I don't regret it, but I don't know if I would do it again. I didn't. Again, I didn't count the cost of some of that was kind of like my cycling, man. We're just going fast. I cite that in the book, Yogi Berra, the baseball legend, getting lost on his way to the Baseball hall of Fame and passed in the same landmark couple times. And the story goes, his wife says, yogi, you know, you know, we're lost. And he says, yeah, man, but we're making great time. It's so funny and it just, but it just hit me across the head. That is so much my nature. And I think that even that with the kids, you know, where you, where are you going with the big family? I don't know, man, but we're making lots of kids and having, and it's, it's amazing and yet it's still kind of questionable. And I look at that now with guys, especially with these big achievements, and I kind of, of you kind of look sideways and go, really? So you've started, you know, 300 businesses and you've made $300 billion and you, what are you feeding everybody? I, I question it. Maybe I don't want to judge it, but I'm, I don't take it at face value no more than I take my own life and choices at face value. This, at this point, yeah, it's interesting.

Because I think when I hear, when I hear maybe just behind what you're saying.

Through like my own lens and interpretation is like, you enjoyed, you enjoyed this sort of pursuit, you know, in cycling, in your relationship and building a family of like, let's see where we can go. And, you know, I think in this time where we're at, there's a lot of questions. I. I just did a mini episode around, you know, should you even bother having kids? Because I hear I get a lot of guys reaching out, a lot of young men especially reaching out and saying, like, you had a kid. Why? Like, why would you want to bring a child into this world? And I hear that a lot. And it really bothers me to some degree because, you know, there's a lot of fear in today's world in terms of why would you bother having kids? And the state of the world. And it's like, well, the state of the world has always been pretty wild, you know, like, whether you were alive 10 years ago, 100 years ago, or a thousand years ago, it's been pretty freaking wild. You know, it's like, it's never been a quote unquote, optimal time to bring a child into the world. There's always been risks. But. So tell me a little bit about how you balance intentionality versus pursuit, because I think there's a big drive into therapeutic modalities and the personal development world to, like, really, really slow down and really be intentional. And I hear you saying, like, man, I just wanted to go fast, and I wanted to enjoy my time while doing it. So how has that balance showed up for you?

That's another. Just a good question. I mentioned before, being addicted to production, you could just as well say addicted to pursuit. And I still am. I still love the pursuit, even, you know, Even. Yeah, taking off into the woods on a run or a ride or whatever. Just going fast. I mean, I literally like to go fast. I have great joy and running fast, riding fast.

And driving fast. Unfortunately, I enjoy that as well. But.

And some of it, I'm with you.

Yeah, some of it is. And I just let myself enjoy that. But now I am intentional. Like, where am I going again? It's part of my. The book what drives you is that I talk about a couple myths in there. And one is that drive in and of itself is the holy grail. And I'm going, man, it's not. We all know that. But the world. Applause, you know, gives it applause. And we can get, you know, inspiration out of it. And even the anxiety, as your friend Britt Frank talks about, you know, anxiety can be a lot of fun, man. We can get a lot of energy out of that. And I've done that. Enjoy that. Without the intentionality of going, wait, where the heck am I going? And that was Part of the impetus for my book of realizing that I wanted my kids to know what they want and what drove them, what the reasons were, what their values were. And then it was kind of a coincided realizing, holy smokes, here I am, the goals guy, the motivation guy, the inspiration guy. And realizing there's some cures in my life. And I didn't do that with like that with parents. Like what do we, where are we going? What do we really want? A hundred children, I mean, what's that going to look like in the future? And we didn't. I was just addicted at least or obsessed or just enthralled with the pursuit. So now I am looking at those areas as key areas of life. Life and having intentionality and then letting myself, you know, realizing I do dig pursuit, man, I do love an adventure. Well, go go adventure. I mean this year, heck, this last, in the last, since we talked to two weeks ago, I've been on some, I've been on some literal, you know, top mountaintops and I've been mountain biking and trail running and paddle boarding, stand up, paddleboarding down rivers and on lakes, kayaking and doing stuff. Man, I love that. So I'm feeding that pursuit, I'm feeding that adrenaline and feeding that. But it's just play. And so that's a different thing. It's not, there's not something super eminent, critical on the line over here in my business. I'm being more intentional than ever in my relationships. I'm being more intentional than ever in my health and wellness and my spirituality and my money and being intentional. But, but when we look at those things and try to just, yeah, cut it off, like okay, cut off all the obsession, the addiction, the pursuit and stuff like that. Well, that's not going to take. I mean that's why get up, why get out of bed in the morning for me at least. So to look at those things and go, okay, there's some things, but can we separate those and have some health? Let me go nuts out in the water or in a trail or whatever. How about over here in business though? Why don't you be intentional and be smart?

This, I love the way you framed it. The addiction to pursuit. Where do you feel or where do you think that for most people that comes from and where did it stem from for you?

I, I'm concerned that especially with men.

That we are trying to validate ourselves. We are trying to find our self worth. Worth. And I think a lot of it was that if I had, what would I have done? I Think I probably would have still, you know, started some businesses or a business. I think I still would have done sports, but I would have been so much more self aware and aware of what was I really feeding inside. I think I would have, I think I would have succeeded a lot more. You, as you, you know, you mentioned the kind of the dark drives that we can have. I refer to them, yes, hidden drives, same thing. But those hidden drives, that's what, that's what I found that sabotaged over and over and over. And if I had known, man, I'm. Am I going after this thing? I wish I had had you talking to me about excellence, dude. Are you going after that for excellence or are you doing that just to feed something inside and to look at me, I think it was pretty obvious, dude, he's just going, it doesn't make sense. It doesn't add up. I mean I wasn't real coachable. I was making bad decisions. I was super chaotic. You know, win one week and the next week I can't hardly get off the starting line. And it didn't make sense, it didn't line up. And I can see that now, but I was so lost in it. And so again I questioned myself and other men. When you look at the pursuit and like the serial entrepreneur thing and again I'm painting with a broad brush with grace. But a lot of times I look at that now and go, yeah, the serial entrepreneur, he started X amount of business. I'm going, I think he hasn't, he's just pursuing stuff. He hasn't figured out what he wants. He hasn't figured out what his values are. Hasn't figured out what he wants to do. Maybe hasn't even figured out what he enjoys doing or what he's really good at. And you're just doing that now. Again, there's some people out there who have an art for business and enjoy. I mean, I remember I, I was kind of in cahoots for, with Kevin Harrington for a while. You know, he's the original Shark Tank guy, worth, you know, $500 million, something like that. Or he was at the time. And I think he just, I think he's, I think he's doing pretty well. He just enjoys it. It's just fun, man. Just put a deal together. He's got the resources and he just has fun. And I think he's just doing it. It's just, it's just fun. It's like me going on the trailer, but for most guys I see they're not having Fun. And that really is what burdens me a lot, Connor, to look at most guys and you talk about the day to day and what we're doing and go, what's the point? Is this just it? We get out of school and you go start a family and a business and work and it's just that you're just a mule. I don't want to be a mule. Just some old workhorse. I mean, what is the freaking point? I'd rather ditch it and just go play now. Now I'm trying to do both, but it is weird. And I think, man, we're feeding something that's not well inside. Which, you know, I'm preaching to the choir, man. This is what, you know, I think better than I do. I'm a student of the stuff you've been teaching now and trying to figure out myself and trying to deal with some of the collateral damage from the past and my programming that feels like I don't know if I'm ever going to get rid of. I don't think I will get rid of it, but can I better manage it? Can I get better coping skills? And can, to some degree, I hope I can do some reprogramming.

I mean, yeah, it's like, can I. Can I direct this part of me?

Yeah.

You know, can I put. Can I point in any direction that's generative or helpful or useful? I mean, that's. I've worked tirelessly to do that, you know, in my own life of like, okay, there's this part of me that's ruthless and relentless and, you know, wants to convince me to go race motorcycles and wants, you know, to convince me to go and, and do combat sports and, and stuff like that. All like worthy and noble things, but not necessarily things that I want to pursue at my core. And so I, I appreciate what you're saying because there's kind of like this thoughtfulness behind when we're pursuing something this, this, you know, the addiction to pursuit, as you saying.

Really having a questioning behind it of like, why. Why am I pursuing what I'm pursuing and am I enjoying what I pursue? Because I do think that for a lot of men in our culture, the notion is that the more you do and the better you do, the better you are as a man or the more, you know, the. The more value you have as a man. And I. That's why I take issue with some of the stuff that's out, the content that's out online with. With men being told, you got to be a high Value, man. A high value, man. And what a lot of men hear.

When.

They hear that is I have to be hyper successful financially and in business, and then I'll have value, but until then, I don't have any worth and I don't have any value.

Totally.

And so we go out and we try, and it's almost like, I wonder if this is it. I'm curious to get your thoughts on this.

This.

Do you think that for us as men, there is a drive to prove our masculinity or reassert a sense of. Of maleness in our accomplishments?

Yeah. Is that.

And is that a bad thing? Right. Is that a bad thing?

I don't know. It was interesting as you were talking about, about, you know, doing your MMA and doing that kind of stuff.

I mean, back in the day, whether you were, you know, a caveman or even a farmer, I mean, you're. You're kind of putting it all out there. You know, you've got. You don't. You don't need exercise and some, you know, adrenaline sport. Life kind of gets that done. And now we don't. I mean, my. My work I could do. I could never get out of bed if my laptop's beside me, and my. And the. And the Internet's on. I. I don't have to do anything to survive. I don't have to lift a finger. I don't have to raise my pulse. And yet, yeah, I do think that that's inside of us. I mean, you don't watch Rocky and not feel like, oh, my gosh, I gotta go box or get in a fight.

You're dating yourself, Kevin. Come on now. Creed 3, buddy. Creed 3.

We watched it.

I love Rocky.

Yeah. I mean, that fight club, heck, man, it's inside of us, and I do love fulfilling that. Like, you're talking, and I do that out in my, you know, in my adventures. And can we get it done in our work? I don't know. You know, from a physicality standpoint, it seems hard, and I want to fulfill that. Otherwise. Otherwise, I don't really want to get into a fight on the street with some dude. I don't think that that would come off well and good for anyone. And outside of that, my experience is back to what you said a little bit ago. Go. I fear that's where addiction comes in. So, yeah, if I'm not out there expending myself in that way and getting to express that aspect of my masculinity, I'm going to do something. I'm going to do it voyeuristically like you talked about. I'm going to do it through porn or betting or you know, voyeuristically or just medicating. And I mean, I have a hard enough time staying away. You know, it's, it's Alcohol is definitely my, that is my thing. Thing. I mean I, I, I enjoy it celebratory and I enjoy the feel of it. And I don't know that I'm, I had this discussion recently. I think the only reason I don't go too far is one, I have control issues which may not be healthy. I don't like to be out of control. So you can only, you know, drink too much before you and I, I don't like to be out of control and I don't want my performance the next day to suffer. So I want to sleep well so I can perform well. My work like yours is very creative and man, if I'm, if I'm incapacitated in any way or marginal or compromised in any way, I can't think, man, I can't be creative. And so that keeps me in check. But now you're back to my work. So yeah, there's work things that I want to do. Without those, I think I'm toast. And I see that with a lot of guys, they're just going to numb out or addict out and I want to find work wise, what do they enjoy doing? What does bring them alive doesn't mean it's all fun and play. But what, what man, really is fitting for them one and then two, it's why like when you did my show, I asked about what are your interests that are quote, you know, non productive. The things that you do just for you, man. The guys that I resonate with most and am, and am drawn to most today, maybe always, but especially today as I'm aware of it, are those who are invested in interest that just bring them alive. And it may have nothing to do with work. It's not making money, it's not winning or something. It's just something that they do for them. I love it. I could talk on and on about that because I'm part of a group that's happened now of guys that are very similar and man, we just revel in it. It's just such a joy. It makes me a better human and all across the board and it's doing stuff that a lot of people go, it's just a luxury. No man, it's vital. It is absolutely vital. I agree.

I think every man needs responsibility, free time expectation, free time. And to have endeavors where he's still pursuing some kind of excellence, but in an outcomeless way. Like, I love doing photography, right? I think that's one of the things that I said on my show. Like, I love it. I really do. I'm not doing it to try and win any awards. I'm not trying to get into any magazine. I'm not trying to make money off of it, but I'm still pursuing excellence. I still want to be. Be an extraordinary photographer. I still want people to look at my photographs and say, like, holy crap, man. Like that. I want to, like, can I buy that from you? Like, holy shit. Like, you just caught an incredible moment. And so I think that. That, to me, I think, is what a lot is, is what a lot of men are looking for, you know, is something where they're pursuing the joy, the artistry, the mastery from. But it doesn't need to be so that they have a billion dollars in their bank account. You know, it's. You know, it's. It's for their, like, filling up their cup in some way, shape or form. Bonus points if you can find that in your career, right? Like, I think I. I am fortunate in a lot of ways where I absolutely fucking love what I do. I love it. Like, I get to have these conversations, working with men, leading weekends, getting to write. Like, everything that I do in my business, this I love doing. There's some parts of it that I can't stand, right? Like talking to accountants and the operational. I'm like, I hate that stuff, but. But I do it right? And so it's interesting because I think the other point that we've been talking about, which has been interesting, that I'll just bring into the fold here, is the physicality part of it. You know, I've been talking about pursuing something physically. You've been talking about pursuing something physically. You just talked about how. How that's not even necessary. And yet it's something that evolutionary, from an evolutionary standpoint, has always been within our lives, right? Men, culture, people wouldn't have survived if men weren't using their physicality to go out and hunt, to go out and build, to go out and create. And so I do think that there's something baked into us from an evolutionary standpoint that needs. That needs satiation in this physical pursuit side of things. You know, it's like I heard Jocko Willinks, this is the last thing I'll say, and then I'll pass it back off. To you. I heard Jocko Willinks talk about how the men that are least likely to fight are the men who are the most trained in fighting. Yeah, and I love that notion. I was like, yeah, you know, like, the more that I like, I think about myself in my 20s, I got into bar fights. A lot time I didn't know how to fight, you know, I, I knew how to hockey fight because I played hockey and I, you know. But now that I've started to train, I'm like, yeah, I don't have the urge to go out and get into bar fights, you know. And so I think that that's such an interesting notion. Do you think that it is helpful, healthy, meaningful for men to pursue some type of physical excellence in something that, that they aren't going to turn into career or monetize?

I, I just do. I mean, I, I honestly do from my, again, my experience. But even with other guys, those are the guys. This, I keep talking about this group as a story behind a group that I'm with. The common denominator is being an athlete. Now you don't have to be great. Like we, I'm so. I'm an athlete over here. Well, we all went surfing in Mexico. I had never surfed, so I was an idiot on, you know, doing that. But I also, I'm an athlete. I'm not going to die or drown or, or whatever. That's the common thing. And yeah, we just, it's something. So I feel primal, you know, especially going off on a, on a trail, remote trail run in a pair of shorts and a pair of shoes and that's it. And just a technical trail, run uphill, downhill, man, it's just primal. And I do feel like it's just, man, it's baked in me. I was, I was on a ride probably within the last three months, maybe 90 days ago at some point. And it was just one of those perfect day. And the literal thought that went through my mind, Connor, I thought, dude, I get off on this. I get it. I get off. Which, you know, that that term is even like a sexualized term. You know, you can think, you get off on porn. I was getting off on this trail and in the flow. And this makes, this is. This is filling me up. Who would I be without without this? And, and to your thing too. I think it's hard to. Without some level of mastery. But even being an athlete and being, you know, mastering your body, you can do things, things that you may not be perfect at and still tap into that. I Mean, I tapped it. Even out there surfing and getting beat to heck by the waves. It was still comfortable. I'm comfortable being with exertion, you know, and being, and being taxed. I mean, that's a comfort. And yeah, again, when I see the people that I'm drawn to, when I see guys who are really fully alive or as full as they can be and enjoying life and drawing people to them and, and from that, having successful success elsewhere, they're doing these things. It's the ones who have just put themselves in the workhorse seat and which I, you know, I understand that I've had some pastimes of being that and realized, man, I don't. What came to me, Connor, is I'm not doing anybody any favors. I am not. I'm not doing God a favor. I'm not doing my family a favor by just sitting here, churning away, paying the bills, being a workhorse with no joy. Everybody would just. It was later on.

The short story would be, I had, I had my family after I had stopped racing for a long time. I had them come to a duathlon that I did and the testimony after I felt guilty for it. Here they are. I'm wasting their Sunday, dude. My. It, it inspired my kids told me. My, my older ones, they said it was so inspiring to see you doing something inspiring, daddy. And now today, not, not just from that event, but on and on, all my kids are fairly active and they cite me, they say it was your example. Not of doing it, not of going out there and doing bitter, but doing it with joy. I mean, you come in from a run and you're just lit up. We wanted you to go do that because you're better, daddy, when you're, when you're happy. And it inspires us to do that. And I hear these testimonies from them and go, man, we can't believe I missed that and that we miss that as guys. So, yeah, back to your point. Yeah, I do, man. I think it fills. You can hear me. I'm excited. I'm in the Colorado summer right now, man. It's just non stop. I have a hard time doing anything but. And, but to your point too, of work, my work, you put a billion dollars in my bank account. I'm going to do these podcasts, I'm going to write like I am. And yet I also find times. And as great as this is, I just want to go do something else, like you said. What did you say, Connor? Something like without a payoff, without a, you know, productive, without A result or something. I'm just doing it for fun, man. It makes everything come alive.

I think the personal development space, the self help industry, industrial complex of the self help industry. You've been in it for a while. I've been in it for a while, but I think you've been in it for, for longer. You've built this incredible show, you know, tens and tens of millions of downloads. You've interviewed some of the most interesting people.

What have you seen? How have you seen the personal development and self help industry shift? And then I think we'll talk about after. Where do you see it going?

That's an interesting question. And the first thought that comes to mind, I grew up, again, I'm 52 and I grew up in the self help industry. You know, going to see all the big speakers and 50,000 people and you know, Oliver north and Brian Tracy and Zig Ziglar and all stuff. And back then it feels like there was a much stronger perspective of your teaching from having arrived. You know, like, you got it, I'm going to teach, I'm going to teach you. And at some point, I think it's, you know, a decade ago or so, I just saw the shift and people stopped believing the person on stage who's, who acted like they got it all figured out and it shifted to, to people who are somewhat on the journey of figuring this stuff out and then sharing it. Almost being like a curator of that and saying, gosh, I was in this bad place, I did this and I achieved this great result. But man, I'm still on it. But let me share what happened. And even today I present myself as a guide, not as a guru. I just had. Who was that on the show? Gosh, it was, was it, was it Brit Frank or Terry Cole or somebody who. No, no, no, it's some, it's somebody I haven't even had on the show yet. I just did a pre call with her and she talks about herself as the anti guru and I dig that. But she said, I'm a guide. You know, I've been, I've been like here, I've been up the mountain a lot. I've been down the river a lot. I haven't ma. I'm not, I'm not the master, I'm not the Jedi, I'm not whatever, but I can tell you what to expect. And then we're going to go through it together. We both, we might both fall or flip or, you know, whatever, but I saw that shift and it was significant to me. And it felt a lot better. And I think it ultimately helps people a lot better. And I still struggle when I see people and you see them too, who come off of, hey, I've figured it out, there's somebody, I won't name them. And this is not a diss. I just don't happen to like this statement from them. They say a leader knows the way, goes the way and shows the way. And I kind of want to throw up in my mouth a little bit. Like, seriously, man, come on. And you know, and I. And then you're setting yourself up for failure too. You're setting yourself up. Yeah, leader. Apparently you don't know this because you suck at that. And we can see it from stage and everybody knows it. And so that was a big shift. And I think that that's where it's still going. There's more of, instead of a guru into that guide it and even join me. And I say that with probably some bias because that's what I feel comfortable in is saying, hey, join me in this or join me. I'm going to talk to Connor and I'm going to ask him the questions that I want to ask as I'm on this journey trying to become a better man and trying to achieve peace and to get rid of my baggage and whatever. Join me in that. I'm just asking the questions that I want to. Now, I do have.

Wisdom. I get billed for that more and more these days. And at first I, I kind of balked against it, but I thought, well, gosh, if you know this and you've done this and you've changed things and you've experienced it, there by proxy is some wisdom. So stand in that, you know that, gosh, I've got some wisdom in this area, but the minute that I get a shirt that says, hey, I'm wise, count me out, man, don't stop listening, stop reading. So that's the shift that I saw and I think we're still going that way as opposed to, hey, let me tell you how to do this, is join me on the journey.

What would you say? Because I find myself sometimes being very disenfranchised with some of the people in the personal development and self help space. I think that there's many different offshoots, there's a lot of spiritual bypassing, there's a lot of grifting individuals hawking stuff that doesn't seem to be helpful, that doesn't seem to be informed. And I'm trying to say that not from a highly judgmental place, but from a place of just kind of having an understanding of where that's going to go. But I get disenfranchised sometimes with this space and even with the therapeutic industry at whole, especially with men because I've worked with so many men and I hear the same conversation within our social conversation, which is like, why aren't more men going to therapy and why aren't more men working on themselves? Themselves? And it's hard to say to people, well, maybe it's not that men don't want to go and enter into the conversation. Maybe it's the conversation that's being had in the personal development space, in the therapeutic space actually isn't inviting for men and actually isn't tailored and curated for men. So I know I just said a few things, but I'm curious to get your take. Where and with what do you sometimes get disenfranchised or hesitant about within. In the personal development, self help, therapeutic space.

I bristle at some of the hardcore, you know, willpower, discipline, you gotta want it more. I talk about that in my book that man, if you've gotta, if you gotta wake up every morning and have somebody scream at you to want it more, if you got to be on the ball field screaming at a guy to want it more, obviously they must not. Once you get to the reason of why, you know, do they know what they're doing? Do they know why do they even want, want to be here? And I start looking underneath that and go, man, they don't know. In my book, I talk about, you know, knowing what you want and knowing why you want it, really knowing why and coming into alignment, playing with the drive concept, you know, coming into alignment. And I see so many people who are, I always talked about aspiring people, Arthur Brooks calls them strivers. You know, either way, the kind of people who are going to listen to this, your show and my show, and they're not over listening to some crime drama and that they are, but they.

Might be listening to crime drama on like, you know, Saturday night or something.

Everybody wants some entertainment that's, that's a catch a killer. Totally, totally catch a killer. Speak about, try and tap into some primal stuff, you know, that you. I, I have less desire to do that kind of stuff because I'm getting my adrenaline elsewhere. But, but with those people, you know, you're putting, you're, you're doing the work work and you're getting results and things are good in this area and maybe in this area and then you feel like you're putting the same math together elsewhere and it's just not working. And that is so frustrating, so disappointing. I think can lead people to burnout or just giving up, you know and just, I'm just gonna put in my time till, till retirement and it's, it's, that's something I want to look at. What do you want and why? Coming into alignment and I, that's part of my story. I think it's part of all our story. I mean it's part of your story. You know, you, you were not, wasn't, didn't mean that you didn't have some things that you were going after that might have been authentic that you were capable of succeeding in certain areas. But overall, man, it takes, it takes a toll and some of the, you know, back to what, what disenfranchise. So when you're yelling, you know you've got to, you got to want it more and I don't want to name names and I think everybody's to going got good pieces that there's stuff out there. But some of it I think does a disservice. Just like you're talking about from a therapeutic standpoint, from a therapy standpoint or coaching or consulting or inspiration or whatever, we can do a disservice to people and actually they start feeling guiltier. I know you see it a lot amongst men where you just, you, you almost be better not to hear that. It's just going to make you feel worse, you know, more guilt, more shame as opposed to in hearing that without hearing it with humility. It's a lot of what I do in my show and I know that you do as well of trying to take a message that okay, you know there's, let's not throw the baby out of the bathwater. It's a good message. But man, I know that this is where it's cutting off. I know that this is where you discount it or it doesn't resonate with you. How can we take this and make it palatable for you? And yeah, not leaving you just feeling more guilty and less having less self worth than if you hadn't heard it to begin with. And I feel like a lot of guys are just on the hamster wheel of trying to find something and meanwhile man, they just feel shame. Ultimately.

When you look at the future of where things are going, two parts. Where do you think the self help industry or personal development industry will be in the next three to five years? What can people do to sort of safeguard themselves or if they're entering into the self help industry. What would you recommend? Because there's a lot of coaches, there's a lot of therapists that are trying to grow their practice this. What should people be aware of in the future? And lastly, how do you think AI, if at all, is going to impact.

Therapy? Self help, personal development, if at all?

Goodness, man.

Multi layered questions.

It's great.

Okay, first on just the sea of stuff out there, because I struggle with it sometimes, Connor, that there's so much stuff out there and I'm just putting out more content and I'm trying to get people's attention. No different than social media is. I mean, trying to get people's attention. Otherwise nobody listens and we don't get paid. I can't keep doing this and I want to and I, I think it's helpful. But as you're looking out there at the sea of stuff, if you're listening to one podcast, you're going to hear another podcast, you know, recommend like right now. So somebody's listening to this and they hear me. Okay, here's this dude. Yeah, he's got this, you know, let's say my book, he's got a book. What drives you? Well, do you really. Is that an issue for you? Ask that question right now. Do you feel like your drive is off or less than you want it, or you feel like you're pretty driven and things are okay? I mean, you may want to get mastery in certain areas or whatever, but you feel pretty driven. Don't buy my book. Don't listen to my show on that. Be free. Just because Connor recommended it. I may not be for you. Listen to the next guy who's going to talk about some area of business, you go, yeah, man, I really want to learn more and gain knowledge in that and be free to just listen, let it go. I think we can get so caught up, kind of the FOMO thing, you know, fear missing out of the next thing. And I hear a lot of people go, man, just, it's okay. You don't need a podcast. You don't have to listen to all my shows. If you do, if you, even if you listen to my show, listen to one here and I try to try to do a really good job. I know you do too. I think anybody doing a good podcast does of what's the subject line? What? Tell us what it's about. And when you start the show right at the beginning, here's what the show is about. Okay, Listen to that. If it doesn't resonate or Excite you move on and you can get caught up and go, no, I got to listen to everything Connor puts out. I really respect him. I really like him. Well, no, you don't. He's going to interview somebody who you don't really care to hear about that.

Or you don't like.

Yeah, you had a couple of those.

In the last few months. People that people don't like. Yeah, totally.

Yeah. And so let it. Let it slide. So be.

Be discerning, I think, is one thing. There's so much out there be discerning about what you really need. That'd be a great thing every Monday to go, man, what is really important to me, I'm going to pursue messages and books, podcasts, whatever on that and not listen to the rest. Even though I got five friends and say, oh, you got to listen to so and so. Well, you don't. So that's one aspect.

To your other question of where do I see it going? I think it will, and I hope it will go more from just kind of back to this. Yeah, that. The influx of knowledge that we take that in and we by proxy. Now I'm not going to diss it. You know, good knowledge, positive information, I think it inspires us. That's worthwhile. I think it plants little seeds. That's worthwhile. I also realize with myself and with listeners and readers and people out there that we can do. We can get so much knowledge that we never take action on. That's not a rocks. It's not a revolutionary statement at all. But I think most of the profound things aren't that revolutionary. We have so much knowledge. When I wrote my book, Connor, you'll probably relate. I wrote my book and I realized, dang, man, I'm pulling up some great stuff. I got a lot of knowledge and I'm going to write about this in here. And son of a gun, if I haven't ever done anything about it, which means I haven't learned. So to go from knowledge to learning, that's a message that I'm preaching to myself and to my audience and I hear it more. Yeah, again, find out, what do you need, get some knowledge, and now take action on it. Maybe this year, instead of reading four books a month, you read one book a month. Or maybe you read one book for the whole year and study that sucker and actually change your life. Can you get to the end of the year? You know, we always get to the year and make our goals. I'm going to read 100 books. I'm going to do whatever. How about look from the back backwards and go, what did I actually take action? What did I change as a result of. And a lot of times you'll hear, you know what, there was this one podcast and this one person who said this thing, man, I changed from that. That's, that's, that's what we're looking for. What can you do to go forward with that? And then with AI.

I1, I don't feel super knowledgeable. It's not a, I mean, you can't not be aware of it these days. My concern though is I, I, I'm, I'm right now not a huge proponent now. I say that and, and they use it, they, my team uses it in my business, you know, there's video AI and, and there's, you know, they're doing it for show notes and pulling clips out. It's pretty brilliant, you know, so even as I'm using it and I'll benefit some from it as a culture, my greatest concern is it's not going to help a damn thing. It's just going to speed us up and we're just going to do more in the same amount of time and be more stressed and more anxious. And at the end of the day, has it really helped us achieve something more as it helped our peace? My fear is that just like anything that we do that helps speed us up and helps us do more is it just causes more anxiety. Bottom line. It's kind of that thing of, you know, if you thought, man, we only get 24 hours a day, what would you do if you had an extra hour per day? Nothing. You just wasted doing the same stuff you're doing. It's not that we don't have, we don't have a time issue and all these conveniences, I mean, you've heard this, but it just, it's so profound to me that if we had the conveniences, if we went back to our grand grandparents and gave them all the conveniences, they'd be like, dude, I got to work an hour a day and everything's done. Well, that's not what we're doing. We're working more than ever. And so you put AI in, you put whatever and it's just going to speed everything up. And at the end of the day, we're more anxious, we're more worn out, we're more overwhelmed, and I feel like we'd be better on an island with no tech and we'd be happier. So that's my concern with, with it.

Well, I appreciate your time and your perspective and your expertise and there's many, many, many more questions that I have to ask you and I'm surprised that this went by so quickly. But Kevin, thank you so much for joining me. And we'll have a whole series of links to your book, to your website, to your show. But where would you like people to go to learn more about you and follow along and enjoy Journey?

Man, the number one place is my show. We do four episodes a week on Self Helpful and we do a series just like we did with you. I don't think it's even published yet, you know, but it's going to be part one, part two, part three, part four and we do a couple parts with you on different aspects and then we have a co host come in and talk about it and then I do a wrap up and it's the best way to really, yeah, engage and go deep with, with me and with these messages. Obviously my book, what drives you, you can get that anywhere Aware. But the show, Self Helpful, whatever podcast you're listening to to tune in there and you'll see if I'm the right flavor for you and if I have a guest or two that you like and I'll definitely have something you don't. But that's where, man, that's where a lot of my life happens. Such a gift to talk with guys like you.

Awesome man. Thank you so much for joining and for everybody that's out there, don't forget to man it forward. Share this conversation with somebody that you know will enjoy it. Don't forget to subscribe. Subscribe wherever you are listening. Whether it's YouTube or Spotify or Apple, wherever you are, please subscribe. And until next week, this is Connor Beaton signing off.