Elizabeth Earnshaw - The Problem With Modern Relationships

All right, Liz, welcome to the Man Talk Show. How are you doing today?

I'm good. Thanks for having me on.

Yeah, of course. How do you feel, just, first and foremost, being on a show called the Man Talk Show.

I love being on a show called the Man Talk Show. I wish there was more man talks happening.

Right? Yeah. That's good. That's good. Okay, good. We're off to a good start.

Yeah.

I had a guest on recently who was like, so, are you going to debate me on a whole bunch of stuff? And I was like, no, no. I just want to hear your perspective. I mean, I was like, I might disagree every once in a while. I really disagree. But anyway, so you can also disagree with me.

We can debate. Good.

Yes, that's. That's good. We'll have. We'll have, like, you know, thorough discourse. Okay, so let's just start off with a question that I ask everybody, which is tell us a story about a defining moment in your life that made you who you are today.

Yeah. So several years ago, I was in what I thought was a relationship, looking back, was not really what, you know, you would look at as being a relationship you'd want to be in. And I discovered that there was a lot of kind of infidelity happening and a lot of lying. And, you know, initially when I found out, it kind of, like, broke me. But something about finding out something that is so shocking can sometimes, like, shock you into change. And it's almost like I woke up the next day and I was like, I'm not going to live this way anymore. I'm not going to be in relationships with people where I'm not speaking up when something doesn't feel right or inserting myself or being kind of like, a part of the equation. I'm not just going to go along with, like, the flow of my life and not take control of it. And I woke up and I decided, like, I'm going to start a private practice because I don't like my job anymore. I'm going to start dating differently. I'm going to start communicating with my friends differently. And it was an incredibly defining moment. I mean, from that point, I went from working in a job that I was really, really unhappy with to having a private practice, which I love. I started dating so differently that I started meeting people who were completely different. I met my husband. Another defining moment. I met my husband on Tinder.

Oh, man, there's Tinder. Has success. Look at that.

I mean, it did then. I don't know what's Happening with Tinder right now. I've heard some stories. Disaster, you know, and then all the other defining moments happened. My son was born. You know, I got. Well, I got married and then my son was born. I've had all these other wonderful things happen. And honestly, it was because I decided I am really going to make a huge effort to be in relationships that feel good to me across the board. Work, friends, romantic. So huge. Very hurtful. But I'm so glad it happened because it changed everything in my life.

Well, my, my defining moment was being the, the guy that was unfaithful. On the other side of that equation.

I was that dude. The scandal. So what do you know what happened? I mean, you don't have to give details, but you know, what happened to him? Like, did he, did he turn a corner? Do you guys ever keep in touch? Like, what happened to Dr. No, actually.

So he, he lives in another country. And what I do know happened is that. So we discovered that he had fiance. And by we, I mean the other women who connected with me.

All right, well, I was not that far into.

There were a lot of layers there. It was international.

Damn.

There were multiple, like, residents. It was a lot. So we actually all connected very respectfully. We really liked each other. And we found that he had a really long term partner in Europe who, you know, even longer than I had known him. And I know that she then discovered that there was even more.

And ended a relationship with him. I'm not sure beyond that what happened. I know there are a few times where he tried to, like, connect with any one of us to like, tell a story, but I'm telling you, I, like, changed immediately. I was like, none of the stories are flying anymore. This isn't going to work. I hope that it was his defining moment too. I hope that, you know, we were young. I hope he changed and he found whatever it was he was looking for with all of this chaos that was being created.

What do you think? Like, just out of curiosity, not to deviate too much away from what we're going to talk about here, but from a clinical perspective, what do you think causes someone to go that far into? Because that's almost like you're living multiple lives, you know, like, I was certainly, I was unfaithful and I lied a lot and I was cheating and that that was there. And no part of me ever went down the path of I want to be engaged to multiple people or, you know, be married and have all these other things going on. That. That feels very complicated.

So, you know, it's fascinating. I. I think another piece of why it was easy for me to kind of shock myself out of it was that it became like, a fascinating psychological interest of mine, like, what happened here? Because there were actually days where he would wake up at 3am so that he could have a phone call with someone, a partner in Europe, to make them believe that he was in another part of Europe so that the times matched up. Right. So he'd be like, oh, yeah, I'm on my lunch break right now. But really it would be 3am in Philadelphia, and he would be telling me that he was going to the gym before work.

So there was dedication to a cause right there.

Dedication. I mean, it goes deep. Like, he had interest. Like, one person was an interior designer. He had interests of interior design with her, but he would talk about different things with me. So I've always been curious, like, what is that about? I will say we were young, so I'm not sure. And he had a job that took him all around the world. The part of me that wants to assume the best is like, there was too much food on the table and he wanted to eat it all. Like, it was like, I'm young and I have money and I'm traveling, and all these girls think I'm handsome, and, you know, I'm just gonna go for it. And then I got. Maybe he got in too deep and kept getting in too deep because he felt guilty. The other end of the spectrum, where maybe you don't assume the best, is that there is something kind of pathological. There's. And perhaps there was some trauma.

In childhood that would lead somebody to constantly seek out love. Right. And almost.

Yeah, just. Just, like, so much love. Because everybody that was with him really loved him a lot.

Yeah. So it wasn't just about sex and.

No. And, you know, he. He wouldn't see people often because he was all over. It was really about love, which I've always just been curious, what was that about? And being able to step back from it and see it without, like. I don't feel activated when I talk about it anymore. There's so many possibilities of what might have caused that. I'd love to know what he's doing now.

Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, I appreciate that perspective because I think.

Well, I think in many ways, like, it is easy to get caught up in, you know, having relationships and having these sort of likes where we're getting attention and validation. And I think in our. In our modern times, it's very easy. You Know, like, you can. You can swipe right on Tinder, you know, and find a date for tonight or an hour from now, right? And it's. It's. We kind of have this sort of smorgasbord or buffet of options, which, you know, it brings us to things like the choice paradox, right? The more choice you have, the harder it is to choose. And we conceptually, as humans think that the more choice that we have, the easier it should be, or the more choice that we have, the more freedom that we have to choose. But actually, what we found is that it seems to have an opposing impact on us. And so, anyway, that probably doesn't have much to do with him, but I think it's just generally a sensation that people experience where they're inundated with choice. And I think a lot of people feel that where, at least for me, I do get a. A lot of questions online about, like, how do I know if she's the one? You know, how am I supposed to know if I'm going to commit to this person? You know, how am I supposed to know if I want to get married to this person? So that is a big question, and I think a part of what we're going to talk about today, which is like, how the hell do you make modern relationships work in a time where, you know, you have this abundance of choice? Marriage rates are going down, divorce rates are going down, but that's largely. I think there's some sort of correlate there that maybe because marriage rates are going down and less people are getting married and they're getting married later. But. So let's just start with what do you see as some of the main challenges in modern relationships? Like, what are people really facing and what's changed over the years that's brought about some of these obstacles and challenges?

That's such a good question. So a lot has changed, right? Like, we've. We've moved through what the. The marriage looks like. It. It started for very, almost like utilitarian, survivalist purposes. We're going to unite because we have to. You're the one who has the farm, and I'm gonna live on your farm, and we're gonna have kids together that can help us grow the farm together.

It kind of moved from that to more romantic notions, like, we're going to fall in love, but it's still going to be complimentary. I'm going to take care of the kids, I'm going to be at home, and you're going to go out and work. And then, you know, it's moved to something that's even beyond romantic love now, which is meaning making. And I'm marrying you not because I need a complimentary relationship with you, even though we kind of do. But that's not what we're thinking. We're not thinking. I'm in love and I want to have the babies and I want you to work. And I'm, A lot of people now are saying, I want to be with you because I think in some way you're going to expand life with me. We're going to become, we're going to grow together. And what happens is that we get into relationships, and even though we might want them to be different than what we saw growing up, we might want to be creative and create a relationship where we're both working or where one of us is traveling and the other is doing this or whatever. The only template we have is the ones that we saw growing up, whether it's TV or family. And that's where people learn their relationship skills. So if that's all you have, even if you have a grand idea that it's going to be different, it's very easy to go back into those like, family of origin patterns and templates and responses. And so the biggest challenge is figuring out how to be okay with it being different than that and being really intentional with it being different than that. And I think that's, that's really challenging for couples.

Yeah, I would, I would love for you to say more about this idea and concept of relations, relationships, maybe even marriage, serving the function of meaning making. Because I, I, I do think that there's a, a good amount of validity in that. I do think that there's a lot of people who are lacking in meaning. And I think in our society, as it becomes more chaotic and less certain, I also think that people are looking for certain structures to, to provide certainty for them. And so I think it's not just for me. When I look at how a lot of people are approaching relationships, it's not that, just that they're looking for something to give them a kind of philosophical, existential meaning in their life, but it's also that they're looking for something to just give them some semblance of certainty. You know, it's like, maybe this can just be the one fucking thing in my life that isn't chaos. I turn on the news, chaos. I see my family, chaos. I go to my work, chaos. And so maybe this will be the thing. And I think it puts a lot of pressure on relationships. So I'm going to pause there and let me know what you think about that.

Totally. And that in itself is a meaning, right? Like, I am seeking a peaceful life and you're going to give that to me. I am seeking, seeking the ability to finally heal myself and you're gonna give that to me. I'm seeking repairing the stuff that I'm there. There's a lot of kind of existentialism in our relationships now. And like you said, it puts a lot of pressure on relationships because then we get into them and it's just another human who you know. And relationships are meaningful and they provide a lot of meaning. But I think sometimes we get into them and there's a lot of frustration because it's like, well, I've always hoped for this because I thought this was going to be the thing that finally made me feel loved, or this was going to be the place where life isn't chaotic or we were going to be the power couple together, and we're not now we have two kids and we can't be the power couple because one of us had to back away. And so I think, like you said, that's, that's out there and we're looking for these things that are going to come from the relationship that are in some ways not tangible the way that maybe they could have been in the past. Right. You can go out and make a certain amount of money or figure out who's going to clean or who's going to do this, but it's pretty hard to overcome a disappointment of what meaning you thought was going to come from that relationship.

So what are some of the things that people are looking for? Like when you say that they're looking for meaning from the relationship, like, would an example of that be they're looking for the relationship to provide meaning in this, in a, in a purpose sense, in a career, like in a career oriented sense. Like what, what are some examples of that that you've seen? Because I think it will help the listener be like, oh, yeah, actually I am doing that. I have tried to my relationship, you.

Know, I think that it might be something like a career goal, but there's usually something else underneath that which is like, I finally want to feel empowered or I want to be supported or I want to be seen. I want to be the priority. So there's a lot of like these underlying things beneath them. Right. Like meeting my husband, I. I didn't need to get married. Right. Like, I have a career, I'm pretty If I wanted to, I could have kept going on my own. But what I really wanted was someone who was going to bring me a sense of security, insecurity, and almost there was this challenge and, like, oh, I really want to create a relationship that's healthy because I grew up and experienced such unhealthy relationships. And so this is like, if at the end of my life, I can create something that is really healthy and secure and communicative, that is what my goal is here in this relationship.

So there's so many. But what I find is that we kind of think the other person is contracting with us sometimes for the same thing, and then years down the road, we find it's not the exact same thing. And that's where a lot of conflict can be created.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's also an interesting dilemma because, you know, just what you're saying there, right? Like, I didn't need to get married. Right. I didn't have to do that. And I think that a lot of women feel that perspective as well, which in, you know, the span of human history, as you're saying, before, like, marriage and relationships served a very utilitarian perspective. And so I think there is a. A sort of interesting crossroads there where it's like, okay, not, you know, there's a lot of men that are in that space are like, I don't really need to get married. And all of a sudden you have a lot of women. They're also in that space, you know, now within the last, like, 50, 60 years of, like, well, I don't really need to get married. And so I do think it's changed the narrative of, like, well, then why should we get married? Why do we get married? And if we do, how do we make that work knowing that the two of us are coming into this with the mindset of, I actually don't need this. So how has that. That belief system, that narrative of, I don't need this. Right. Like, because I think my wife and I, like, Vienna and I were sort of the same. It was like, I don't necessarily need to be married, but. But it serves a function. And so we'll enter into that partnership, into that agreement, just like, we didn't need to be parents. And so I'm curious to get your thought on that. How has that narrative changed the relational dynamics? And are there problems that come out of that?

I mean, I think there's a lot of good that can come out of it. Right. So I don't want to say it's Only problematic, I think the good is that you're going into it because you really want to, to be in it. Right. Like, it's not just because you weren't, you weren't able to go to school, so now you feel like financial.

Connection with somebody else taking care of you or something like that, necessarily, like, you want it. So there might be more dedication in some ways. But I think that on the flip side is when things get tough, there might still be that sense in the back of your mind of, well, I didn't really need this or I don't need this. And I think there's also, like you mentioned before, this heavier burden.

Of we entered into this without really needing it. So what has to happen to make us feel like we need to continue being in it. And for some couples, that might be a really high stake. Right. Like, if this isn't happening, if I'm not feeling fulfilled all of the time, if I'm not feeling this all of the time, then why am I in this? I could just be living by myself. And so if someone isn't necessarily relationally focused and maybe more avoidant or even like a more anxious person, they might try to push things within the relationship that don't work relationally because there's this big sense of I can be on my own and maybe less of a relational focus.

Do you feel like the resources that we need in modern day relationships have changed over the past 30, 40 years? And if so, what are some of those resources? What are some of those tools that you know in your clinical practice today that you see couples really requiring that, that maybe a lot of people are struggling to, to cultivate?

Yeah. You know, I think one is that people need so much flexibility now, so much flex, and not that people weren't flexible in the past. And I'm not going to write off like all of the challenges that have always come with relationships. I think that many are still the same. But because we're trying to do something different and create like this interdependence, right. Where we both are able to like, navigate our own needs and also navigate the needs of the relationship. And I'm supporting you and being whatever you want to be, and you're supporting me and whatever I want to be that we need flexibility. And I think flexibility is really hard for couples. Really hard. Because we, we start the relationship with certain roles and if you don't continually look at does this role actually work, you're going to want those roles to continue. And sometimes they can't and sometimes that might feel like a failing rather than, well, you know, this is. We have to be flexible here. Maybe for a while, you have to step out of X, Y, and Z while I step into this other thing. And are you able to do that? I also think, obviously, gender roles are having to be rewritten. You know, for example, my husband actually just left his job so that he could do more at home because my career was pulling me in a direction where it just wasn't. It just wasn't working to be the one who was socialized to be so great at home and so great with the baby and all of that. And so I was working, but I was doing all of these things I automatically know how to do. And my husband had to be flexible enough and open enough about it's okay for gender roles to be flexible, to say, okay, I'll quit my job, and for a little while, I'll do the school pickups, I'll do the lunches. I'll do all of that. So I think there's also a lot of, like, consciousness, and, like, you have to work through your ego a little bit in relationships. And you said people want structure, but I actually think we're getting less of it in our relationships, and that's really uncomfortable.

Yeah, I would definitely agree with that. And I think flexibility is an interesting word to hone in on, because I do think that that's true. I do think that's what a lot of couples are actually requiring. But I think that what I see a lot of is that couples are often fixated on fairness, this idea of what's fair within the relationship, which creates a very different conversation, you know, around, like, this is what I think is fair in the relationship. And it's like, well, that usually creates a very combative perspective. And I do think what you're saying is interesting as well, around the gender roles, because I think it's something like 42% of American households, women are the number one breadwinner. I don't know why we still use that term, but it's like, there it is.

But we're winning the bread.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, flax, you know, flax loafs of bread and multigrain.

You're winning all of the types of bread. We go out and we get it all.

But that is a very interesting thing. And I mean, even, you know, I run something called the alliance, and there's hundreds of men from around the world, and I. You know, we were talking about this on one of the calls where I said, you know, something like 42% of households, women are. Are making more money than their. Than their. Than their male partners. And open that up for discussion, because some of the men were in that category. And it's something that a lot of guys don't talk about. And I still think there's a lot of, you know, there's a. There's a lot of shame and. And judgment around what that looks like. How do you recommend, you know, partners, couples navigate that type of conversation? Because I do think, clearly the data is showing that that's happening more than maybe people are letting on, first and foremost. And secondly, it's. I've heard it cause a lot of complications in people's relationships. So how do couples begin to have monetary conversations where it's affecting the sort of quote, unquote, traditional gender roles? What does that look like from your perspective? I know it's a. We're getting into some. Some good stuff here.

Yeah, no, this is a great question. And I know before we were talking, we were thinking about maybe talking about some Gottman stuff. And I think that a really important conversation to have around that has to start with what is connected to this for you before you can come to agreements, create flexibility, have change, really have comfort in that. Because the reality is, is that we're all raised with, like, these templates of what we're supposed to look like and what we think we're going to be and all of that. And honestly, we might consciously say, well, that's not what I want to be. I want to be in a relationship where we're both doing what we want. Who cares if my wife makes more than me? And I mean, like. But unconsciously, there's often a lot still connected to that based off of what you saw growing up being termed a success or being a good partner or whatever. And I think a lot of couples will jump over that, and there will be this really kind of like, almost critical conversation. Like, what? Why does that matter to you? I don't understand. I thought that we were in an equitable relationship. I thought you were a feminist. And like, now you're saying it bothers you. I make more money. And what happens is that the other person then feels really unseen, shut down, criticized. Right. And as we know from the Four Horsemen, John Gottman's Four Horsemen, that's just going to elicit defensiveness. Your partner is going to say, that's not what it is. And now you're calling me sexist. I'm. You think I'm sexist? And we go into this like, conversation that didn't mean to. To go in that direction. And so what I usually recommend is that people have what's called a dreams within conflict conversation, which is recognizing, you know, something's coming up between the two of us. I don't understand it. Right. Like, I thought. I thought that you wanted me to really succeed in my career. I'm feeling that there's tension around that. Can we talk about what's underneath that? And what we'll do in Gottman Method Therapy is we'll ask people to talk about what's the story behind this? Like, what did you see growing up that people were. We. We start with the shoulds. So what was the should that you grew up with? Honey. Right. And your partner? So my husband might say, well, I grew up thinking I should, if I'm a good partner, be the one that provides the monetary, you know, support in the relationship. And what did you think you should have done? Oh, I thought I was, you know, just going to grow up and take care of the kids and make a beautiful house. That's what I should do. And being able to say, so what feelings are associated with it if you're not doing that right now? And I would say, on my end, there's a lot of guilt. You know, I feel guilty that I'm not the one that picks up my son every day from school. School. And maybe my husband would say, I feel embarrassment or I feel shame or whatever. And then talking about things like, well, what would be an ideal dream for how we can make it work together? You know, do you want to hold on to that should? That's still really important to you. And is there a way we can kind of make that feel better here? And, like, what's the very worst thing that happens if you continue to feel this way or we continue not to be able to meet the dream underneath that? You often are a lot. You often are really surprised with what people say. It's not the rigid thing. Usually it's not, I want to go back to work. It's, I want to feel proud. My dream is to feel proud of myself. Great. How do we do that? Or my dream is to feel like I'm a really good mom. And the catastrophe would be, my son grows up and thinks I was neglectful. Right. So talking about the stuff underneath, particularly with money, because you just brought that up, can be a really powerful way to get out of those kind of nasty, antagonistic conversations that can come up.

Yeah. Because I think that for, you know, I'll speak for Men, because that's, that's pretty much what I do. But I think for, you know, I think for a lot of men, like, we still have, you know, there's a lot of guys that still have the desire to be able to provide. And I do think that that can show up in a number of different ways. It can look a number of different ways. But ultimately I do think it's man dependent, you know, and what that providing looks like is.

Important. And you know, I do think that there's room. It's like if you still want to be in that role as a man, that great, like be in that role, you know, Like, I, it was interesting. I have two sets of parents and on the one side it was sort of like that traditional, little bit more traditional side where like my stepdad made the bulk of the money and my mom still worked, but didn't make as much as him. And then on the other side, my dad and my stepmom, she made exponentially more than him, like a lot more than him. And everybody knew about it. And it was interesting because in their generation that was very unheard of. Right. It wasn't very common, wasn't very talked about. And so he, you know, he sort of navigated those waters of what that was like for him. And I watched, you know, I watched that as a kid and was like, oh, this is such an interesting dynamic to see how they mostly as a teenager and as a young man, how they sort of navigated that. But it certainly brought in some, some very specific challenges within the communication realm. So on, on that note, maybe we'll shift away a little bit from the, you know, that, the role piece and get into a little bit around communication. What are some of the core pieces that you feel modern day couples are struggling with when it comes to communication? Because I think there is still a little bit of a difference in how men and women often communicate. I know that's sort of biased, but, you know, having, having worked with a lot of men and a lot of women, it's like we, we do oftentimes communicate in a very different fashion and our goals are different, you know, and what we're listening for is different. And so I'm, I'm assuming you're going to come at this at a little bit of a different perspective, but I would love to hear your, your piece on like, what are some of those communication tools that modern day couples can really start to embrace? And where do you see communication breaking down within modern day couples?

Yeah, so one thing, and I don't know if this is a tool necessarily, but I think.

Moving out of rigidity is so important and recognizing that your partner is not you. And I think that we really hope in relationships that we are going to have, again, these partners that have these meaningful conversations with us and that they. They totally. They speak. The women mostly. Right. But I think men wanted a little more than maybe in the past, too, but that our partners are going to speak to us about their deepest hopes and their dreams, and it's going to come naturally to them. And if they really love us, they will express themselves. And then we might have a partner who had different hopes. I hope we just get along. I think we're going to have fun. We are soulmates, so we should just kind of know each other. And why do you keep wanting to talk about this? I thought we were good. What's going on and what happens is we tend to think the other person should communicate like we communicate. And part of the work, I think, is learning how to create some sort of, like, win win solutions around this stuff. So. So it might feel like a disappointment that your partner isn't going to want to talk about their emotions all day long, all the time and process everything. Or it might be a disappointment that your partner does want to talk about emotions. But where can you meet each other in the middle? And how can you respect your partner as an individual who has different needs than you and who isn't necessarily writing you off and not caring about you and all of that?

That just communicates differently. I have noticed a lot that we tend to, I think recently we tend to kind of like, pathologize our partners when they're not like us. And that, to me, feels like a very new phenomenon.

Yeah, it's such a. Can I just. Can I jump in there? Because I have found this to be.

Really, I think, detriment, a detriment to conversations amongst people. You know, I see a lot of the guys that I work with, it's like, my wife says that I'm a narcissist. My wife says I'm codependent. My wife says that I'm this. My girlfriend says I'm that. My girlfriend, like, what do I do? How do I fix that? And they're chasing this. This, like, moving target of, like, the latest Instagram post or podcast that their girlfriend or wife has listened to, or vice versa. Right. It doesn't have to be that one way. It can be the other way around. Right. Like, you know, one of the. One of the guys that follows me Might. Might go back home and. And be, you know, my wife is X, Y, and Z. So I. I really feel like the pathologizing, the labeling, the. The psychological labeling, it's interesting because it's almost like the more that people get educated on relationships and how things work and. And with this language, that it can be very easy to.

Like, slap the sticker on it without actually living the credo of. Of what that label is or without actually embracing or integrating that. So how. How do you recommend, like, what's that line for you? I would love for you to speak a little bit on this and how couples can avoid that trap of hyper pathologizing and get, you know, getting into the arguments where literally they're, you know, they're labeling.

Diagnosing each other.

Yeah, diagnosing. They got like, the DSM 5 out. You know, it's like, it's. You're. This one.

They have Liz Listen's newest post up, and they're like, Liz said, I. Yeah.

I've literally had a couple bring. Bring in my post in the session. I'm like, guys, now put the post.

Oh, you're like, oh, shoot.

Nope, nope, nope. Like, nope, nope. You're not doing that. Let's close the eyes, get into the feelings. Let's go. Here we go.

There. And there you go. That's. So there's a line. Of course there are. You know, I. I think it's really important that people can recognize, like, signs of abuse and speak up towards that and navigate their relationships in a way that's safe. And I have noticed that there has been so much of an emphasis on this pathologizing where I'm seeing more and more people use it as a way to not be vulnerable with each other and to not take responsibility for themselves, to not take responsibility for the relationship that they're choosing to be in, which is probably a very uncomfortable thing for a lot of people to hear. And because it's uncomfortable, what happens is they label and they say, no, no, no, no, no. These fights keep happening because my partner is a narcissist or she's an emotional abuser or she's borderline. I saw it in a newspaper. No, he's narcissistic. So it just goes back and forth. And really what that is, it's an avoidance of saying, maybe I'm not expressing myself well. Maybe I'm not setting good boundaries. Maybe this relationship isn't actually working and it's not a good relationship, and we trigger each other in the nastiest ways I could have. When you asked me what was going on with that person that cheated on me, if I was in an activated place, I would have said all the labels. I would have said, well, I just read a book about the sociopath next week store. And you know, I think he was sociopath. That would have been coming though, from my own need to have a reason for why he treated me badly because I didn't feel empowered to deal with that. Right. And I think that what couples need to do if they're going to choose to stay together, you have to work really hard not to pathologize. And it's okay to say this, is this it. It's okay to have the boundary. It's okay to say, you know, what's happening right now. I'm trying to really talk to you and I'm experiencing so much defensiveness, honey. But that's much different than saying you're such a defensive person. And I read about it. Defensive people like you, they never come around. And that's why our relationship sucks. The more that you pathologize, the less likely you're going to move out of, of the dance and the relationship isn't going to get better and you're going to be absolutely right. Your partner is going to continue to be a jerk and you'll continue to react to that.

Yeah, amen to that. I mean, I think what's interesting is I recently did a little bit of a. I don't know if controversial is the right word, but I did an episode about beware the male apologist. Like these guys that are constantly apologizing about masculinity and men and sort of man bashing because they, I've seen a lot of them have picked up on lingo, therapeutic modalities, psychological lingo, and use it in some ways to like rope women in and have become very good at speaking the language, but not living the, the actual contents of what they're speaking about. And so, and, and women are doing that too, right? There's a lot. It's on both side of the sides of the fence. So how, how would you, like, how do you avoid that in your relationship? Because you have a wealth of knowledge right here you, here you are, you got a wealth of knowledge. You're, you're writing this book. How do you avoid the, the trappings of not like pathologizing your husband and, and labeling him and like what? Yeah, I'll just pause there. I'm curious.

It's, it's hard. I mean, I'm very lucky because my Husband is not a social media person, nor does he read about, like, mental health. So he's not pathologizing me.

So good, because then I don't have to, like, hit him back with something.

Right, Right.

But I think really one of the biggest things for me is knowing about the Four Horsemen. And I think once you know about that, you can start to recognize what is, you know. So very quickly for people who don't know, criticism, defensiveness, stonewalling, contempt. Those four things are really detrimental to relationships when you start using them, gets harder and harder and harder to get out of them. It cascades you into. To lots of conflict, isolation, all sorts of stuff. So when we pathologize, we're actually using contempt. Right, because contempt is the act of taking a superior position, telling someone who they are and that who they are is lower than who you are. You are a narcissist. I'm on the top of the mountain. I'm telling you that you are beneath me. You are borderline. You are crazy. You're a nag. You're.

I don't know, your anxiety disorder is coming up.

You're a gaslighter. You're. You're a defensive person. When we start to speak to our partner like that, the normal human response is to either respond with shame or defensiveness or both. So you're not going to go anywhere. They're not going. It's very unlikely that whatever behavior that they're doing, which is probably hurtful, and you genuinely do need them to hear it, and you might need them to change it, and you might need to end the relationship, like, all of that could be true. But if you're saying to someone, you're beneath me, I'm superior, I know how to behave, and you don't know how to behave, you're going to elicit a normal human reaction of shame or defensive. And what's going to happen is you're grandiose, you're in one up, they're in one down, they're in shame, and they will either hit you back with, I'm not the narcissist, you're the narcissist, or they're going to say, I'm not, and here's all the reasons why, or they're just going to shut up and be ashamed and pull away, withdrawal, whatever. So if you can start to recognize the ways in which you use criticism or contempt and learn to actually talk about what you observe, what you're feeling, what isn't working for you anymore, anything beneath that label, you can describe what's beneath that label. I've noticed that often when I need help, I'm not getting it right. And that feels like. Or I notice when I bring up a problem, you tend to tell me, you know, that it's not a problem, and that's really, really hard. When you do that, people can receive it. If they can't, then maybe you can say to yourself, huh, I've brought this up appropriately, softly, kindly, lovingly, on the same playing field, and this person is still responding to me and not a nice way. What does that mean for me? What do I need to do about that?

Yeah, I really appreciate that perspective because I think it brings it back to just some. Some solid, grounded basics, relational. Like, I feel like some of the Gottman works are just like, these are relational basics.

It's just basic.

Know the four Horsemen, right? Go back to the foundation. Are you criticizing. Are you being. Being contemptuous?

It's not flowery, right?

Yeah. So I really, I really appreciate that you're tying in that pathologizing with contempt because it. It is. It's putting in people in that position of superiority. And, you know, I also think it comes back to what I was saying at sort of the beginning of the show, which is that we are desperate for certainty. You know, we're desperate for certainty. And I think so many people in these uncertain times are looking for any sort of certainty, salvation. You know, how can I just cling on to you're this. And so it makes it so much easier for me to navigate my relationship with you because I know who you are now. All right. I can make sense of why you're acting this way or why you hurt me in this way. Right. That's usually from. We like we're putting ourselves in the victim perspective in that place. But I think it does give people that. That sort of deep rooted sense of certainty.

Yeah, I think you're right. I think we want that so badly and it doesn't exist.

Yeah. Yes. Yeah, yeah. So. So, okay, can you just say a little bit about how we move out of. How do we provide safety for ourselves in those moments? Like, what would the Gottman sort of structure say about providing personal structure? Personal safety. Personal security in those moments where we're wanting to pathologize and grandstand? What does safety look like in that moment?

Yeah, so, I mean, a couple things. One is it might look like choosing not to engage when you're. Because if you're doing that, and to be fair on the person who's explaining expressing contempt Like, I want to make it clear you're not a bad person, right? Like you're, you're feeling something, you're feeling, you're not being heard, you're feeling, you are at the end of the line, you've tried everything. And so you are probably feeling a lot of needs and really desiring some sort of change in response. And providing safety might mean recognizing in yourself. I'm not going to go to a nice place right now. This isn't going to get me anywhere. I'm going to take a break. I'm going to wait to bring this up. I'm going to, I'm going to write it down first and then bring it to my partner. When, you know, with Gottman or with anything really, when we think about safety, you have to have safety in your body. So if you're trying to have these conversations and your heart is racing or you're having tense muscles, or you feel like your brain is running at a million miles a minute and you just want to stress scream things. What usually doesn't work is attempting to have a traditional conversation. Because when people are in physical arousal, their brains are actually being shut down from front all the way to back. And so you are like an iguana at that moment. You can only run towards or away from something, and that's about it. But if you can learn to identify, my body is not safe, safe. It's not a good time for me to talk. And this is personal responsibility.

Then you're going to enter into fewer conversations that are about contempt, defensiveness, screaming, yelling, threatening, stomping away, all of that kind of stuff. And what that might look like is saying to your partner, I can't talk about this right now. I'm gonna walk downstairs, I'm gonna go get a drink of water, I'm gonna do some deep breathing, I'm gonna get my heart rate calm again. But safety starts in our own bodies and then that's how we can share safety with others. If you're not safe in your body, it's going to be really hard to be safe with another person.

Yeah, well said. I feel like I just recently did a four part series for the May Mental health month. And one of them was how to regulate the nervous system. Like how to actually down regulate when you're in an upregulated state. And it was fascinating to see how many people were like, give me more of those exercises. Like, holy crap.

I love that.

Because it's that kind of stuff that we actually need in the moments where we Feel neglected by our partner or abandoned by them or triggered or upset or angry or whatever it is. It's like what I hear you saying that's so valuable and important is that those states, we have to be responsible for those states and know that nothing good is going to come of it. And so we're responsible for engaging in those states. And you know, obviously there's complexities when you, when you have trauma that you're carrying around that, that adds a different layer. But okay, my friend, listen, this has been absolutely phenomenal. Your book. I want this to work. An inclusive guide to navigating the most difficult relationship issues we face in the modern age, which we've kind of been talking about here. When does it come out and where can people go find it? Because I, I feel like, I feel like after this conversation a lot of people are going to want to go check that out.

It's available for pre order now anywhere books are sold. But it comes out officially on November 30th. So if you pre order it now, you will get it on your doorstep, you know, the day it comes out or whatever, the post office gets it to you. But it is available for pre order and it's in all of the bookshops, all of you know, Target, Barnes and Noble, all that kind of stuff.

Oh, in the Target. Look at you.

You know, I had to put that one out there cause it's my favorite place on the planet.

I actually. So fun fact, I've never been in to a Target before.

What?

I know, I'm Canadian. His shows. I've never been into a Target, never stepped foot.

You won't care for it.

No. I mean, maybe not, but I would love to see my book in there one day. I don't know if they're going to put a men's workbook in there.

We'll get it there and when I see it in my Target, I'll put it right at the front of the aisle.

So. Good. Well, thank you so much for joining me. We'll have the links to your book in the show notes. And for everyone that's out there that listened to this episode, I feel like with your current partner, future partner, this is definitely an episode that you should dig into. So make sure that you slide it into their DMs, their text message, share it with somebody that, or just share it with somebody that you know would enjoy this. So thank you so much for joining us. And until next week, this is Connor Beaton signing off.