FEELING LOST? How to ACTUALLY find yourself - Dr. Sara Kuburic

So however you're acting right now is who you are. You can think you're something else, you can hope that you become something else. But your current actions created who you are in this moment. There is no. And I think this is like the responsibility, the choice, and utilizing your freedom from moment to moment.

All right, Ms. Sarah Kubrick. How are you doing?

I'm good, thanks for having me. I'm so excited to have a chat.

You're like, how should I answer that question?

How do I answer a question?

9:00Am yeah, yeah, 9:00am you know, Paris is in the background. You're launching a book. I'm sure that that's. I mean, I've been through that in very nerve wracking last several months. And that's a bit of a storm of its own nature. But before we get into any of that other stuff, tell us a story about a defining moment in your life that made you who you are today.

I think it would be roughly 10 years ago. I was flying from LA back to Vancouver to where I lived. And I was on like a sisters trip in Los Angeles. And I at that time really hated my life. And I think it would be fair to say that I hated myself. Although I'm not. I don't think I was aware of that. I was an overachiever that masked a lot of things. And I went through life in a seemingly acceptable way. And so I remember like packing my bags as we were about to go home. And I didn't want to go home. I hated home, and I hated what that represented and the version of myself that I had to be when I went home. And so I remember packing and just like not feeling very well, but I was like, it's fine, whatever. We get to the airport, I start sweating. I really don't feel well, but I'm like, it's gonna be okay. Like, it doesn't matter. Probably Vegas. I don't know. We were in Vegas, then Los Angeles. I was like, maybe like, I drink a little too much. That's a little.

I was like, maybe I just like drink a little too much. Not that I'm a big drinker, but I was like, whatever. And then I remember getting on the flight and buckling myself in and it was almost like as it clicked, I completely lost it. Like I had my very first panic attack. And I just remember like sweating. My heart felt like it was gonna, like rip out of my chest. And the whole plane just started to close in and I was like, I need to. I was like shaking and I was Like, I need to get off this flight. My sister's looking at me like I'm crazy. We, like, just sat down, and I honestly, like, I blacked out. I have no idea how I got off the flight. I vaguely remember just, like, yelling, I need to get off the flight. Which is very not Sarah, by the way, if you know me. I'm very calm, very chiller. And I was like, I need to get off the flight. Flight. And I remember, like, pushing people vaguely out of the way to get off the flight before we took off. And then I sat at the gate, the paramedics came, and I completely. I went into paralysis, actually, like, my hands went into paralysis. I slowly started to lose my ability to speak, and I thought I was dying. So I thought I was having a stroke or I thought, like, something. I was dying. And so I think that was a defining moment because I think I was so comfortable in my denial for so long, and I think this was my body's way of being like, and now this ends. Like, we. I will no longer allow you to live a life that you hate. That's not a thing. I will no longer allow you to be a version of yourself that you don't like. I will no longer allow you to keep going this way because it's hurting you and you refuse to see it. And now I see that as a very loving thing my body did back then. I did not. And so I just remember sitting at that gate thinking I was gonna die and. And having, like, an aha moment of, like, what did I do with my life? Like, what is my existence? Was that really like. And I think that survival mode kicking in and being like, I'm willing to do literally anything to keep living. And I think that that was a cool thing. Even after, like, the panic attack went away and I went home, the living part wasn't just, like, physically living, but existentially living. And I think that fueled me the years to come. That was a very long version of that story, but there you go.

No, no, that's. That's perfect. That's perfect. It's interesting. You know, I've been doing this show now for seven years, and I've interviewed a ton of interesting people, you know, just like, every walk of life, not just within self help or therapy, but, like, astrophysicists, you know, like, just athletes and all sorts of interesting people. And that question the story. When people.

When people really share from a real place, from a vulnerable place. The stories are always so interesting to me, you know, when they're Like, I remember in the beginning, there were some people that were like, oh, yeah, defining moment. And it was sort of like this very scripted thing that they, you know, that they were sharing to try and, like, sell a course or a workshop or, you know, like, okay, this is garbage. But, you know, the more. The more that people have answered these questions. And I reflected on this in a recent conversation. And by the way, thanks for the wonderful story about getting on a plane. I'm getting on a plane tonight, and so I'm going to have your panic attack in my head while I get onto the plane.

You're welcome.

Yes. Thank you for that. I'm totally good flying, though, so I don't think that's going to be a problem. But it's interesting to hear all these stories that, you know, revolve around death or some type of an ending or some type of a limitation, you know, some type of a revelation that is transformative in nature. And you said something interesting that I just want to, you know, scratch the. A little bit deeper on, which is that you couldn't live in denial any longer. And I'm curious what you were living in denial. Was it denial of something that had happened in your youth, like some trauma? Was it denial of that the life that you were living was incongruent? I'd just love for you to say a little bit more about that.

Yeah, I mean, both. So I was born in Bosnia, and my childhood experiences were quite traumatic. But I think, you know, I lived through two wars by age of nine, and I immigrated to Canada. And I think because everyone else around me did it, too, we acted like it was normal. It was very much like, that is just part of life. And now you keep going. And I don't think my family had a conversation of, like, wow, that was incredibly traumatic for all of us until years later, because I think maybe we were too scared to admit how horrifying that was. I think it was like, okay, we're in survival mode. What's the next step? How do we get out of the country? Okay, now we're in Canada. How do we have enough food? How do we, like, get a job as immigrants for my parents? Like, how do I learn the language? So there wasn't time for, like, this deep reflection of, like, how was that for you? We didn't have those types of conversations. And so I think I have been living in survival Mode until my mid-20s without realizing that I was. And so I was in denial about that. And then as a consequence of being completely lost and Self loss, I would say. I started to make decisions that had nothing to do with who I was. So I dug a deeper hole for myself and for me, that looked like getting married incredibly young when I wasn't ready to get married and I didn't know myself and that was not the right partner for me. And that was just one example of the life I was living that I didn't want to live. And so I think I woke up going home to a husband that day and being like, wow, I don't want to do this. Like, I don't want to do this so badly that my body's shutting down. And it wasn't just that. It was like the way I presented myself and, and all the other expectations that came from being in a certain type of community and being like the wife and the therapist and the whatever. And I was in grad school at the time. And I think all of it, I just realized I didn't feel like any of it was mine. Like I lacked possession and ownership over it. Even some things I really liked, like being a therapist or being in training to be a therapist. And so I think I just felt completely unanchored. And my denial was like, you can't actually keep living like this, and you have to face your path past as well. So it's a bit of both.

You know, it's interesting because when I hear you talking about this survival mode, I think that that's such a common thing for so many people, right? When you've grown up in an environment, you know, like the one that you grew up in, which is there's a lot of hostility, there's a lot of uncertainty, there's violence, there's chaos.

I think that a lot of people, not a lot, but I do think that quite a few people grow up in iterations of that. Certainly different environments than the one you grew up in, you know, but.

But I do think that a lot of people end up living in that survival mode for a very, very, very long time. Just trying to, you know, their body, their mind, their sort of, sort of like psychological makeup becomes this sort of fortress for how do I just hold this whole thing together and, and keep marching forward? And I, I remember, I'm sure everybody's. Most people are probably familiar with it now. I remember hearing Jim Carrey talk about his sort of like existential break, you know, his sort of like breakdown and working with Eckhart Tolle and stuff like that. And he, he was talking about being depressed, and he said, depression is your body's way of saying fuck you. And I love that.

Yeah, 100%. Yeah. It was like, if that's enough, like, that's enough, Fuck you, that's enough. That's how I felt.

Yeah. It's like, we're, we're. I can't do this anymore. You know, and it's funny how sometimes our. I've seen this with a lot with the men that I've worked with where they'll actually reach this place in their life where things are going really well, where they've provided some type, they've created some type of like financial security or, you know, they've got the job that they want and they're in the relationship that they want and that it's in those moments where the shit surfaces, you know, and they're like, well, but why now? Like, things are going well, you know, Totally. I'm doing well. Why does this have to come up now? And I would just love for you to speak to that a little bit that like, how come in the moments where things are going well is that, you know, sometimes where shit explodes?

I think that's a lot of the times when shit explodes. I actually wrote an article about this and then like Women's Health picked it up because I was like, the thing about it is when we are goal oriented or when we're living life like a checklist, we're too preoccupied to realize how miserable we are. We also assume that whatever we are trying to accomplish will bring us that ultimate sense of fulfillment or happiness. And the issue is when you actually get it. So most people who can't get there and spend their entire lives trying to get there, they can almost pretend that that will be the end goal and somehow that keeps them motivated and they don't get fully depleted. But when you get there and you realize that, wait, is this it? Is this all there is? What now? It still doesn't solve all my problems. I still don't feel fulfilled. That's when it's really hard because then you realize the most external things cannot do that for you. And that is a really, really scary moment. And so I am not surprised. And I think a lot of very successful people feel this way. I mean, I think everyone feels this way, but even individuals who have accomplished some really incredible, incredible things will walk away being like, what now?

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's interesting. I think it was also Jim Carrey that said, I, I wish something along the lines of like, I wish that everyone could get rich and famous so they would realize that that's not the solution to their problems, you know, and so good. I've heard a lot of celebrities say different versions of that, and I remember it used to piss me off to no end. I'm like, oh, yeah, boohoo. Like, you're living in your 8, 000 square foot mansion with your $5 million car collection. Like, I feel so fucking sorry for you. But I think the reality is that now I have a different context because I've worked with so many people in that field, and I've gotten to a place in my life where something similar along those veins has happened, where I sort of reached a level of success and credibility and stability that I never thought would be possible, like, my past self never thought would be possible, and then was like, oh, there's still things inside of me that my external life isn't resolving, you know, and then I think I got it. You know, Like, I think I got it because I think we've, you know, especially when we have childhood trauma or abuse or neglect or abandonment, it can create this energy within us that is driven to go out into the world and to try and find some sense of safety out there, you know, or some semblance of understanding of, like, what the fuck is happening inside of me. So.

Absolutely. And I think the issue with existential questions is that we set ourselves up for failure. I think what people need to understand, it's like, you're always going to feel this. Like, there's always going to be, you're welcome. It's like, I should start writing cards, like Hallmark cards. No, but, like, the thing is, like, the tension is very human. The tension is actually healthy. The reevaluation of your meaning and your sense of self is what you're meant to do. And I think as humans, we're so averse to any pain or suffering that when we see this, it's like a problem to be fixed. We get overwhelmed by it, and the way we approach it is not helpful. And what I think is important to start talking about is like, yes, you're going to feel these things, and yes, it's important to know that external things are not going to solve it, but it's also okay to feel these things. And you're going to keep feeling them, and you're going to keep finding answers for those questions in the moment, repeatedly throughout your life. And so I. I think part of this discomfort of being human is just discomfort of being human. And I. I think it's, you know, we need to stop trying to solve it because it's not something to be solved, it's something to be experienced. It's something learn from. Like, and I think that that's really cool.

So on that, on that note, can you maybe just describe and define for the listeners what existential psychology is? Because that's really what your area of expertise is. And I, I don't think that there's many people that are in that vein. And yet it does seem like when I look out at the landscape of our society, what a lot of people are struggling with and what a lot of the conflict is about are very deep existential questions and existential anxieties. So can you just unravel, like, what is existential psychology and what functions does it serve and maybe like, who was involved in it? I think that would be interesting for the listener.

Yeah. So existential psychotherapy, it's a modality. So the way I like to talk about it is like, psychology has a lot of modalities, which means it's like lenses through which to understand human problems or human suffering. So if you're a cognitive behavioral therapist, you will understand your client's suffering through that theory. You look at their behavior, you look at their cognition, Right? So every therapist has a way that they look at a problem, and that gives us kind of like a map to understand where is the suffering and how to best guide your client out of it. Existential psychotherapy is rooted in existential philosophy. So Western philosophy, people like Sartre and Heidegger and Kierkegaard and all these wonderful people have kind of paved the way. Now, when you think existentialism, you don't think hope and healing. You think a lot of smoking, drinking, and suicide, Right? So that, that's a fair evaluation. However, these concepts are incredibly profound and innate to our human experience. And so psychotherapy took some of those concepts and then built kind of a roadmap for therapists to help their clients address these painful things that philosophers have talked about for decades. So I practice existential analysis, which is one particular field. Existential psychotherapy in general focuses on themes of responsibility, meaning, death, isolation. So when you're looking at a client to their problems, you're going to try to unravel some of these themes. And I practice existential analysis, which was founded initially by Viktor Frankl. I don't know if you're familiar with his work, Men's Search for Meaning. And then he worked very closely with Alfred Langley, who is my doctoral supervisor. And he developed existential analysis into what it is today. And so there are two really important Historical. Well, Longley still alive. So not historical, but figures in kind of the space.

You mentioned Kierkegaard in there. And I. It's interesting because recently I was watching this video about how part of Kierkegaard's philosophy around. Well, I mean, he had a psychology of anxiety in some regards, but he was talking about the, The.

The very real necessity for angst and, and just that that is an experience that as an experience and is incredibly important for our psychological development, for our ability to tune into what matters to us, what's important to us. And I think for a lot of people, that's somewhat disturbing, you know, this notion, like, I'm a. I'm a huge lover of Jung. I'm just. Because I think in many ways Jung talked about, you know, he was sort of a philosopher. He had a very big spiritual bend to him, but he was constantly talking about the value of moving towards and understanding your. Your darker psychological proclivities and notions and the things that you didn't like about yourself and didn't want people to know and that part of your path to wholeness or wellness or whatever word we wanted to put on that wasn't being able to understand the contents that resides within you. And it seems like within existentialism, within existential psychology and psychotherapy, that there's. There's also a. And maybe I'm misinterpreting it, but there's also this sort of. We need to go and look at some of these more uncomfortable experiences that reside within the human element. Right? Like, is that accurate? And if so, can you just speak to that?

Oh, my gosh, it's so accurate. I think it's a very uncomfortable and intense experience. I think there are some therapies that.

Make you feel very good very quickly in terms of, like, you're talking and they're just pointing out your strengths and you're like, that's right, I can do this. Which, by the way, super important. And we do that as well. We build our clients up. But that being said, a lot of the work is sitting with the things that you don't want to hear, right? Like, it's. It's. Your therapist is your mirror, and you're sitting with the things that you've been avoiding for a very long time. And I think what makes existentialism even more intense, it's like you're not just sitting with it, you're taking responsibility for it. So I think that's like the next step. It's like understanding your role in your predicament and of course, there's some things that were not your fault. And we're not saying everything is your responsibility, but a lot of the things are. And I think that's the really difficult portion of it. It was like, not only are you facing with it, not only are you realizing it, it's a part of who you are. It might always be a part of who you are, but it's also learning how to create meaning out of it and how to take responsibility for it moving forward.

So what are, what are some of the pieces that. Or. Or pillars that are baked in or embedded into existential psychology? Like, is it. Is it about exploring who am I? Is it about exploring what's the meaning of life? You know, like, why the hell am I here? Like, what are some of the pieces that. That are important within that modality?

Great question. So I'll speak to existential analysis again, just because that's the specialty. But we have four pillars or four fundamental motivations. And the first fundamental motivation is like, I am here, so you exist, but can I exist? And that's like a really intense question. It's like, yes, you're physically here, but do you actually have the safety, the space, protection to genuinely exist in this world? Because a lot of people are alive, but they're not existing. And I think that that's an important distinction. And then the second, and obviously this is years of theory and just that one pillar. But I will just give you the. The spark notes. Then the second one is like, I'm here, but do I like it? This is like values, relationships, connections. Do. Do I like my life? This is an important question. The third one is can I be myself? That's the identity piece, the authenticity piece, the support piece. That's really interesting. And then the fourth one, I find that one interesting. But the fourth one is.

What is my meaning in life? Right. And so we look at ability to exist, the likeness of existing, the identity, and then the meaning.

And are they sequential? Like, do you go through them in that fashion, or are you exploring them sort of at the same time?

I wouldn't say that they're linear. I think it depends what a client comes in with. So we, we kind of have, you know, some shortcuts when it's like, if you come with this kind of problem, most likely this FM this pillar is weak. But chances of only one pillar being weak are very small. So oftentimes we're working with all four. But it just depends, like, what you're coming in with is what we would.

Focus on, say more about the first one. This notion of I'm here, but am I, I think you said, am I existing? Like, am I existing in the way that I want, that I desire? I just love for you to unpack that because I think that that that's something that I can see in a lot of people's lives as being very common.

Yeah. So I, for example, that would, if I went to a therapist after my panic attack, that's where I would be sitting.

That's like I'm alive, but can I actually exist in the space that I have co created with the world? And the answer was absolutely not. And so I didn't have enough safety, not just in the world, but I didn't have enough inner safety, for example, to not feel anxious about the way that I was existing. And anxiety is a common symptom of this pillar being weak. And so I think it's, it's realizing that you cannot self express, that you cannot grow, that you cannot connect, that you cannot have your basic needs met in the context that you're in. And so that's an interesting sort of realization to come to.

And what was the third one that you, that you found very interesting that I like.

It's the authenticity. It's like, do I have permission to be myself? Is one of the questions. And that's an interesting question you're asking yourself and you're asking others of like the people around me, are they giving me permission to be myself? And am I giving myself permission to actually be my authentic self? And that's an interesting dynamic to try to navigate. And authenticity I think is so important for our mental health, in our well being, whatever word we want to be using. So I love that that has its own pillar. And obviously as someone who studies the self and self loss, that's where I would find.

A lot of fun stuff.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think we're going to go down that path quite a bit. Right. Like this notion, I think it's become very, it's a very modern question, right. Like how do I live authentically and how do I be myself? And Kierkegaard had this wonderful quote where he said anxiety is the dizziness of freedom.

Yes.

Oh, it's, it's like, it's like whimsical, but also just brutal. You know, you're like savage because, because so many of us are like, we're seeking this freedom. I want freedom. I want freedom. I want freedom to be myself. I want freedom to live how I want to live. But there Is this sort of dizzying quality that can show up within in that expression of freedom. Because oftentimes.

To find our way there is to go through the sort of forest of not knowing, you know, of the unknown, of just like, well, shit, if I. Like, if I get to express who I am, then the immediate question is, who am I? You know, and what do I want and what do I desire? And for a lot of people, I think that place, that psychological place is incredibly uncomfortable. So when you look at your work and maybe we can. Maybe we can just sort of like shift gears here a little bit. When you talk about developing the self. Right. Because you have this wonderful book coming out called it's on Me. And I love the title. I know, having known you that you went through a lot of iterations on this.

You're being so polite. I love it. It.

And there was, There was some good ones. And I was like. I was like, man, like, you know, some of those titles could really spark some interesting controversy, which I am all about. I'm all about shaking the. The wasp nest a little bit. But so how do we define the self? Like, what is what. What goes into that? How do we start to find who we are and express who we are? Because I think that you start the book with, I don't know who I am with. Which I think for many people at some point in their life, they're going to find themselves in that territory of like, shit, I. I actually don't know who I am.

Yeah. And I mean, this is a really complex topic. I think it's why I never broached it prior to writing a book, because I do think you need the entire book to understand what is the self. It's almost like it's so intricate. That was one of the difficulties of writing. It is like, what do you introduce first? Because so many components go into it. But I'll just fe off of something you said which I thought was super interesting. It's like, how do I know who I am and then how do I express it? And I think this is a common way of understanding the self. It's like you build it, then you express it. I think what we don't understand is that the expression is the building. So however you're acting right now is who you are. You can think you're something else, you can hope that you become something else, but your current actions created who you are in this moment. There is no. And I think this is like the responsibility, the choice, and utilizing your freedom from moment to moment. So Those are like the three components, I say, of the self, like choice, freedom, responsibility, of course, because I'm an existentialist, but I'm. I think there's a lot of talk right now of like, find yourself. Do you think it's really lovely? Yet that means yourself exists and was co created unintentionally or passively, or you had nothing to do with. You had nothing to do with this creation. What you had to do was like, pick it up, put it on, and then go on for the rest of your life. And there's a lot of things I just personally disagree with in terms of like, that's not how I think it works. I think you create yourself every single moment. Your authentic self is not static. It's constantly evolving. So who you are authentically today will hopefully be very different than who you are ten years from now. And both will be equally authentic if you do it deliberately. So I think it's more about the creation of self through, through actions and through choices and through taking responsibility for the life you live. That's the less sexy, you know, answer. And I go into it through the book, but that's, that's the summary.

When you look at the state of our culture in our society today.

And you look at some of the problems that people individually and collectively are facing, and I'm going to just sort of make a statement and you please poke at it in any way that you want. I'm very curious to hear your opinion on this. But it seems to me externally that we as a society have either never really had a deep sense of who we are, or we have lost a connection as a collective to any kind of semblance of who the hell we actually are. And that creates a very deep sense of cultural panic and fear. Is that right?

Oh, my gosh, yeah. I love, I love that you said that. But I think as a culture, you'll notice that we have deprioritized this task and we have also alleviated each other of the responsibility of figuring it out. We have, we have been like, you're making money, let's pat each other on the back. You're. You have a family. Amazing. Let's celebrate, let's throw a party, which all of these things, great. But I think what we've done as a society is just deprioritize this really essential aspect of our existence. And I think when you lack the responsibility, the collective responsibility, and I think it's really difficult as an individual to take on that responsibility. And I don't think that we can develop our sense of self in isolation. So that's something I talk about in the book. It's like you need society, society will shape you and you need others to reflect back to you who you're becoming. Like it's inner, outer pole. Like we are not in isolate. You cannot go into a cave and figure out who you are. That is not how the human psyche works. Because what you, because what you need is almost, it's almost like an accountability. So we call it inner and outer polls. So let's say you go, this is who I think I am, so I'm going to express it. Then someone is going to be like, this is how I think you are. Depending on your expression. Then you're going to go, does this align with my expression? And if not, are they misunderstanding or am I actually not expressing or not being who I think I'm being? It's, it's, it's a very delicate work. You can think that you're what, the nicest person in the world, but if you cuss out every person that cuts you off as you're driving. You need to understand that there's a discrepancy between how you perceive yourself and how you act and who you think you are is, is not actually who you are if you can't act it. So that this is like there has to be that alliance between your actions and your thoughts. And that's what we call congruency, that's what we call alliance. And if you don't have that, if you can't actually express yourself as you perceive yourself, this is what leads to self loss.

We're going to touch on self loss in a second more. But so just. So I'm, I'm getting what you're saying, what you're saying is that we almost need this external, whatever we want to call it, mirror or opportunity to.

To understand if who we think we are and who we think we're putting out into the world is landing, is being received, is being understood. And then when it comes back to us, that information that comes back to us, you know, from a partner or a family member or a colleague, saying like, you know, well, maybe you're not all of the way that you think you are or yeah, I get what you're saying, but it's, you know, sometimes you don't actually act that way. That, that's valuable information in helping us, you know, sort of giving us breadcrumbs on the path of who are we really and what's trying to emerge from Us psychologically. Is that accurate?

Yeah. Like in my book, I talk about three prerequisites of the self. And it's acknowledgement, appreciation and justice. And these things come from other people. And so it's really important that we understand we need someone to confirm our existence.

You know, like it's, it's when someone ignores you or ghosts you, for example, the people get so, people get so upset about it. And yes, rejection is painful, but I think it's almost like saying you don't exist. And I think that's why it's so triggering for so many to be treated that way. And so you need that confirmation that you're alive, that you're in fact who you think you are. And I think we're social beings. The, the fact that we think we can go and do it ourselves is very unrealistic. But the fact that we depend on others is also very scary.

You need someone to confirm your existence. Fascinating. I agree.

Do you think? Yeah.

Good.

We're on the same page.

We're on the same page. Yeah.

Do you think that there are other means of confirming not only our existence, but confirming who it is that we think we are? So like, for example, lots of people will go on vision quests and have these sort of profound experiences that teach them about themselves. I'm literally flying tonight to go to eventually go to Scotland and spend six days on my own with nature and the ocean.

That's great.

Do you think that there are other opportunities that can mirror back and reflect who we are, that can help us discover who we are?

For sure. My God, yes. So when I say this, I mean I, I don't think you can go your entire life without human reflection and like that appreciation and acknowledgement do. I think you can have segments of profound self awareness and you know, journey with yourself. That is very helpful and you need to do on your own. Absolutely. So I'm really glad you brought that up. Like it's a very important part. But I think we can learn about ourselves phenomenologically, which essentially just saying, being open to what is all the time. So it's like when you go for your walk, you can learn about yourself by the fact, by how your feet feel like hitting the ground with each step. You can learn about yourself of how you know the sunset makes you feel. You can learn about yourself sitting in your body. You can learn about yourself by stretching and noticing how different muscles are tense or not like loose. And I think it's important, important to understand that like there's something really sacred about going on this journey and really honing in of how everything in life, nature, thoughts, birds.

That'S nature, roads, I don't know, anything you tell a water bottle, a phone, touching a phone can tell you about who you are. And so I think it's really important to, to understand how much input we have. We just need to be patient enough to decipher it and sit with it and see what it means. And yet I don't think it's enough.

So, side, I agree, I, I'm with you, but I want to take a side. I'm just gonna take a right turn into unexpected land. Can you existentially analyze what the, is happening within the, within the American political system or within North American culture? Like what, what does existential analysis have to say about what's happening culturally? Because again, I'm going to bring this back. The reason why I'm asking this is that it, it does seem like not only are we living through a crisis of meaning within our culture. Right. Individuals lack a sense of meaning, lack a sense of connection to one another, which, you know, it's hard as you're talking about, it's hard to develop a sense of self if you're disconnected from the people who matter to you.

But it does seem like the level of existential anxiety, the barometer for existential anxiety, has dramatically risen. Correct. You know, over the last just three years alone. And so I'm curious to get your thoughts on that. What, what would it say? What would you say?

I'll say, what would I say? I will not speak for the field. So I think lots of things are at play. I think the way that we're engaging with each other in our world has become incredibly meaningless. And I think that's catching up to us. I think people have not been nurtured or supported or taught how to figure out who they are. They've been groomed to be who society wants them to be. I think we are.

Facing success a lot faster than any generation prior. And I think we're getting those moments of like 20 year olds being like, and now I'm a multimillionaire. Fuck what now? Like, it's just out of control. We've also, you know, developed systems such as social media that we don't know how to navigate in a healthy way that we have used to replace some really important human interaction. And so I think what's happening is it's, it's a lot of explosive growth that we don't know how to deal with. And I think Also, as I said, it's a deprioritization of things that used to matter that probably kept previous.

Societies or previous generations more grounded. I also think what's happening because of social media is people are really leaning into self expression, but what they're lacking is that connection to something real. They're just expressing. I'm not even sure what they're expressing. They're just expressing. And I think what happens is that when you see yourself express so many incongruent things, it's really scary and disorienting because you go, okay, this day I acted like this, this day acted like that. This day I spoke about this issue. This day I spoke about that issue. Nothing is wrong with you speaking about all these things, but if you don't know how they align with you, you're going to sit there and be like, I'm sorry, seeing fragmented pictures and I don't know how to put them together. And I know you actually confuse yourself by being so incongruent and by rushing to expression without having any alignment.

I love that, I love the, the frame that you're putting on some of this because I agree it seems like things have sped up in a lot of ways and we've, we've dislodged ourselves. A lot of people have dislodged themselves. Like you were talking about people just expressing themselves, you know, sort of ad nauseam. And it's almost like yelling out into the ether. You know, you're like putting a tweet out or, you know, putting out your deepest thoughts onto a blog post that five people are reading, you know, or 5,000 or 500,000, but there's no real faces to those, you know, to those readers most of the time. And so you're expressing yourself into what almost feels like a vacuum. And I've had this, I've talked about it a number of times on the show now, which people are probably, you know, annoyed about it by now, but maybe not.

I want to hear.

I've talked about, yeah, I've talked about how in my framework, the, the Internet and social media specifically are, are manifestations of the collective unconscious that we've actually created an externalized version of the unconscious mind and we're interacting with it constantly, which we're not used to. It's a very, it's a very uncomfortable thing for the majority of people to interact with anything unconscious. And that's what we do all day long with social media. Right. You are interacting with people's reactivities, their shadows, different parts of them that they're not really aware of, that they're just spewing out, you know, onto your Twitter profile or X or whatever the hell it's called now. And you know, you're having to engage with these different parts of people that you don't know. And that in itself is quite. I think for most people it's very disorienting. Right. Anytime that we have historically, in myth, in psychology, any encounter with the unconscious, whether it's the just your personal unconscious or the collective unconscious, can be a very disoriented experience. And it would seem to me that in a collective way, we're having this massive encounter, all of us, with the personal and collective unconscious. And that is just like dislodging our sense of, well, now who am I? Right. You know, in this massive sort of field.

Yeah.

Any thoughts on that before we move forward?

No, I love it. The only thing is sparked for me was I think it's the most freedom we've had to share and the least amount of responsibility we've ever taken for what we're sharing. And I, and I think that that's an interesting thing to watch. It's like, now anyone can share, you can share anything you want. There's parts of the Internet you can literally say anything you want. And as you said, you can project, you can allow your shadow to speak for you, you can allow all these things. And yet such little responsibility so placed on us for doing such things. And that doesn't mean we're not responsible. To the contrary, our degree of freedom dictates our degree of responsibility. It just means that we're all pretending as a collective that we're not responsible for what we are co creating, which is, as you said, like a really incredibly destructive way of communicating, if I can't even call it that. I don't even know what to call it.

Yeah, you said our degree of freedom dictates our degree of responsibility. Can you unpack that a little bit more?

Yeah. The more free you are, the more responsible you are for your actions. So let's say that you didn't have a choice to do a certain thing. Let's say you had to be. I'll use something super irrelevant, arbitrary. You have to be in a certain project. You, for some reason or another didn't have a choice. Although arguably you almost always have a choice. But let's say your choice was very limited. The amount of responsibility you would have for that going wrong is also limited. It's like, I have to be there. I was There during that accident, I like, I couldn't stop it. It wasn't, I didn't have the freedom to stop it. It's whatever. But let's say that you were in charge of something that turned into a disaster and you had all the freedom in the world to stop it, to change it, to tweak it, to adjust it, and you didn't. That responsibility grows. And so maybe that's a weird example with work, but the amount of freedom we have with anything means that the more you have it, the more responsibility you have. And this is what's happening in society. For the first time, we're having nauseating amount of freedom. Nauseating, like anxiety inducing amount of freedom of you can do anything, you can become anyone, you can, you know, and what we're not liking and why we're not using it sometimes is because we realize subconsciously the weight of that responsibility. It's like if you can become anything and then you become an accountant and you hate your life, that responsibility is on you. You know, if no one said like you have to be this because your father was that like back in the day where it's like trades and, and professions were passed down, it's like now you can be anything. So if you chose the wrong thing, that's on you. And I think like the responsibility. Yeah, no big deal. The responsibility, it just becomes much, much greater than more freedom we have. And I think it's why people get overwhelmed by freedom. It's not even the freedom sometimes it's like the subconscious awareness of the responsibility that comes with the freedom.

Yeah, choice paralysis. Right. When you have infinite choice, it's just paralyzing and, and dizzying. Right, we're back. We're back to quote. Right. Anxiety is the dizziness of freedom. Right. So yeah, I love what you're saying. Let's, let's move into this loss of self. Because I think that many people go through some type of a loss of self. You know, a woman becomes a mother and all of a sudden sense of self is like, you know, completely altered. You know, you lose, you lose your job, you lose a parent, you, you know, you've been in a relationship for three years and all of a sudden that person's like, I'm out. You know, and you don't see it coming. And your sense of self is all of a sudden dislodged. Can you just sort of outline some of the parameters of what a loss of self is, some of the things that can influence it? And then I think on the backside of that we'll. We'll talk about, like, how do we. What do we do with that?

Yeah, yeah. No, let's not talk about that. No. So loss of self, it's just leave them hanging. Loss of self is self estrangement, lack of congruency and alliance, which you're like, okay. Like, it sounds like, okay. So then I like to give another example. Being inauthentic versus being lost are two different things. Being inauthentic is like saying yes when you want to say no. And it's, you know, making compromises gradually, passively. But it's almost like you're deep diving and you're in the midst of the ocean, but you still know where the surface is. So you're like, okay, I'm not super acting like myself, but I'm very aware of what myself actually wanted. Now if you do this long enough, it will become your way of existing and it will turn into self loss. But for the time being, you're like, I get it. I don't want to do this. I said I would. Now I hate myself. Whatever. Self loss is like being in a riptide underwater and just.

Just not knowing. Understanding that you have to swim to survive and not knowing which direction. You have absolutely no idea where the surface is. And so if you swim in the wrong direction, you understand you're gonna die. And I think that that's the feeling of, like, I have zero idea of who I am at this point. And the. One of my definitions in the book is like, self loss is our failed responsibility to be ourselves. This is pretty heavy. But it's your failed responsibility to do the actions that align. That's all it says. And your self expression is how you build your sense of self. And so the example I had that might resonate with people, and I. I mean, it's from Runaway Bride. So if you watch that movie Julia Roberts, There we go. Like, I'm bringing that. It was like. It was like Sartre and Julia Roberts on the same page. It was great. But let's. She has a scene. I don't know if someone hasn't seen Runaway Bride, go watch it. But she is a woman who tends to run away from her at her on her wedding day. So, you know, and I think there were like six men that she's done this to. And then a reporter hears about the story, so he goes to the town and he. And this was Richard Gere. So he goes, and he's like, I'm gonna observe her. I'm gonna interview all the Men she's run away from. I'm gonna interview her and write a piece of. And as he's interviewing them, he's like, what's her favorite breakfast? And they'll be like, how does she like Craigs? And they'll all be like, pooch. Then another guy will be like, boiled. The third guy will be like, scrambled. And he's like, wait, what? So he's having this argument with her later on in the movie. He goes, you're so lost. And she's like, no, I'm not. And he's like, you don't even know, like, what kind of eggs you like. And she says something like, that just means I changed my mind. He's like, no, that just means you don't have one. And it's like this, like, big argument. And I just loved it because he was like, that's how simple it is. It's like that realization of, like, I don't even know what kind of eggs I like. And she ends up making like 12 different types of eggs at home, eating them and figuring out what she likes. And so for me, it's like finding your sense of self is figuring out what eggs you like. It's going and tasting life. It's realizing that not everything you try is going to feel correct, congruent, but you won't know until you try it. It's trial and error. It's being conscious of it, it's being deliberate about it. And I just love it because that was like she was completely lost. It manifested in something as stupid as the eggs. But the issue was much deeper. And so if you find yourself not knowing basic things about yourself or not being able to make decisions because you're not sure what the right decision is, sometimes that can be a manifestation of self loss. Or if you go, wow, I acted this way and I can't recognize myself in this action. That's a scary moment. That can also speak to self loss.

And so the pathway towards.

Self creation, self connection, is to start to very intentionally do what make those decisions, to discern what it is that you actually like, what it is that you actually want and need.

Yeah, absolutely. It's going okay. I don't know. I've never.

Went. I've never gone to a Zumba class. I don't know if this aligns with me. So you're going to go to a Zumba class, but instead of just going to a Zumba class and thinking about how you don't want to look like an idiot while you're dancing and Worrying about what other people are thinking about you. You're going to go, okay, does this align? Do I like this? Does this help me express myself? Is this good for my body? Is my body liking it? So it's, it's just about like paying attention of like when I have this conversation with this person, does that bring me closer to myself or does that challenge myself? And it's, it's trying different things of like different forms of self expression and then being really, really freaking deliberate about your decisions, because your decisions, when you accumulate them, that's you. Ta da. There is absolutely nothing else that's you besides accumulation of your choices and decisions. And that is kind of a scary concept, but I think it's a true one and again, not a limiting one. It doesn't mean there's always a part of you that you'll never grasp. That's what we say. And that means a part of you is always in the future. A part of you is always something you're going to grow into. But who you are in this very moment is just based on what has happened and how you, you have shown up or not.

So self loss can come in a variety of packages, a variety of forms. I think you've given some good direction in terms of how we can start to reclaim that sense of self, regardless of where, you know, where we are on the path.

Where does grief fit into this? Because it would seem to me, you know, after working with a lot of people, that there is sometimes a fear of changing, of stepping towards our more authentic self because we're going to lose a part of us that we've, that we've been, or we're going to lose a version of ourselves that we've been for so long. And it seems like sometimes grief plays a vital role in this. And so can you just unpack a little bit about how grief fits into the picture of self loss, of self creation?

Yeah. Oh my God, I love that question. Yes, grief. Grief is going to be such a, a key player in your experience of creating yourself. The amount of things you will lose is insane, but you won't lose yourself anymore. So that's the trade off. You're losing something at all points. You're losing something. And so it's either previous versions of yourself, people that shouldn't be in your life.

The ideas and the fantasies you had, whatever, you're either losing them or you're losing you and you just get to choose. And unfortunately, I feel like life is filled with grief. And I think part of that is Understanding there is beauty in the grief, understanding that it will take time, understanding that this is the difficult work, this is the work which is not attaching yourself to any one version, no matter how well or poorly is served you. And I think it's, it's practicing the non attachment to an extent. But grief is, is massive. And even if you're a new mom and you love your kid, you're still going to grieve who you were prior to the kid. And that's happens all the time, but we don't talk about it. So women feel incredibly ashamed. And it's like, no, you had a great version of you that you have to let go because that no longer can be expressed in your actions. Your actions will now express your kid and the fact that you're a mother. And so I think there is a massive loss there that we need to destigmatize. But that's just like one example.

It does seem like there's as we, you know, take on more responsibilities as we shift, right. We become professionals or business owners or parents or, you know, husband and wife or, you know, we take on these sort of labels and these new roles that it oftentimes expands our sense of self and sometimes it also becomes the sort of prison that we feel like we're within, right. That these labels sometimes of mother or father, husband or wife, boyfriend or girlfriend, can sometimes feel like the, the thing that's constricting our sense of self. What do we do under those moments? Because I think that's very relatable for a lot of people.

So relatable. I think we need to realize that they're a role we play in life. They're not our entire identity. Your entire identity will be composed of multiple roles and you get to choose what those roles are. So you still have the power. You can choose to have certain roles. Now, you know, if you're a parent, you can't really back out of that one. That's probably one that you can't back out too much out of because you will be a parent regardless if you don't want to see your kid, you still have a kid. But I think the point is you get to select what roles compose your identity. And I think we feel the most trapped when we feel like one role has become our identity. So wife, now I'm just a wife. And it's like the second you feel that, that means you're probably doing way too much in your marriage or, or people have placed way too much expectations on what it means to be A wife. And now you have started to identify as being a wife and only a wife. And so I think just realizing that we're complex and giving equal air time to all aspects of us can prevent us from feeling trapped in the roles we have decided for the most part to partake in. And if you hate a certain role, then it's time to switch out of it.

I've always loved this notion of. One of the things that I talk to a lot of men about is curating responsibility free time, where you get to almost take all of the roles that you play as father or husband or business owner or, you know, whatever it is, right. Garbage man or electrician. You get to take all of those roles off for a moment. You get to take all of the responsibilities off for a while that come along with them and just see what's underneath all of that. Part of my journey of going to Scotland is there will be no responsibilities. I'm not working. I won't have WI Fi, I won't have TV or cable. I won't have access to the outside world. It's just responsibility free time, role free time. And I have always found that those, you know, I've done that for a number of years and I've always found that it's, it's in those moments of stripping away all of these things that we're normally carrying around that ask a lot from us and that we're giving a lot of ourselves to that we can, we can sort of reconnect with a deeper sense of self. At least for me, I find that in those moments it's like, okay, how do I feel, you know, now that those roles and responsibilities aren't present in my life? How do I actually feel about them objectively? You know, Jung said that in order to heal, you have to create separation between you and the thing that is, you know, is, is causing strain or pressure or, you know, whatever it is. And so I find that sometimes that separation can be quite helpful.

Yeah. Thoughts on that? On. On creating role and responsibility free time from the things that we're carrying around in our life that are part of ourselves.

Yeah, I think that's fascinating because it's not like that role. It's not a role free time. I think that's where I'm stumped because that is still your role. It's not something you can engage with per se in this very moment. I totally get what you mean and I actually really like the concept. But it's like, I think the point is though, you can never Escape it. You're still a father, you're still a husband. You can not answer their texts. You can ignore them for a week. But that role didn't go away. And I understand that. It's like, you will now get some space, some distance, which is so needed to reflect on that role. But at the same time, I don't think we can ever be role free for the most part. And I think that's what really weighs people down because we can pretend, we can do the cognitive dissonance and be like, right now it's just like, I don't have any roles. And it's like, well, that's not true and that role is still yours, you know? And so that's what I think is interesting of like, I like this practice because it's like going in and out, almost like proximity to the role. I think that's really cool. Learning to distance and then have intimacy with the role and then distance and reevaluate and have intimacy. That being said, the role hasn't gone away. That's the only thing I was thinking.

No, no, it's perfect. It's. It's, it's perfect. Yeah, I think, I think the way that it gets described is. Is very important. And, yeah, it's less about putting the role down or being free from it, but having the space from it. Yeah.

Yes.

Where does anxiety fit into the picture? Because I think also Kierkegaard, I think he said something along the lines of, of whoever has learned to be anxious in the right way, has learned the ultimate. Right. Has learned the ultimate.

I love how much.

I know. You know what? I was on it. I was on a kick a while back of Kieran Guard and, like, went down a YouTube rabbit hole and was just like, philosophy and. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And like reading all this stuff. And I tried reading Kent a while back and it was, it was brutal. It was real hard. Yeah.

You wouldn't see me quoting him. So.

So, yeah.

Yeah, cool.

But. So where does, where does anxiousness and anxiety fit in to the loss of self and to the reclamation of the self?

So I think he also speaks about despair.

And I think just adding some words and it's human to despair, and I think it's human to be anxious. And we're either anxious about who, I think who we recognize ourselves to be, or we are anxious about the fact that we don't know who we are. That's an existentialist for you, right? Like that those are your two options. You're. You're anxious because you don't know who you are because of who you figured out you were. And I think part of that goes back to something I said earlier, which was learning that it's okay to be anxious to an extent is okay if you have an anxiety disorder that's completely different. But I think where just like, oh my God, I'm feeling some anxiety about my existence. This is a problem that needs to be solved. And it's like, it's okay. It's actually this anxiety that it's going to get you to answer the question of like, what does. What is life asking of me? Who am I in this moment? And I think with self loss, the anxiety, what I felt was more clinical in terms of like, I developed a panic disorder for like two years and I, like, couldn't necessarily function. That's the extreme version of that, I think when you feel like you can't exist because it's not safe to exist and you have no idea who you are. I do think that sometimes people develop anxiety, depression, other mental health concerns as a consequence of self loss, and that's something we don't talk about. However, self loss is not pathological. Self loss within itself is, you know, an experience.

Probably a chronic experience at the point you reach self loss. But it's something that, it's like, it's very human, it's very normal. And it's something that anxiety is probably going to help you get out of, because if you're not anxious about the state you're in, you're probably going to stay in it. And sometimes I think we need to feel a bit of pain before we're motivated to change. Because for some reason or another, that's how humans operate. If you don't feel the pain, you're like the pain of change. As long as the pain of change outweighs the pain of staying the same, you're not going to do anything.

I mean, there's so many different paths and threads that I want to pull on in this conversation, but I think one of the things that I just want to reinforce that it seems like you're saying is that this is a sense of self loss is one of the most fundamental human experiences that we can have. That it's shared by everybody, that, that almost everybody at some point in their life, to varying degrees, you know, maybe not in a very like, catastrophic way like some of us have experienced, right? Where it's just like, oh, the riptides pull me out. I now have no sense of self. There's a complete sense of Disorientation, where do I go from here? But there's different sort of levels that, you know, some people will experience.

It does seem like we, we try and avoid, you know, that territory of going into the I don't know who I am or I don't know who I am in these parts. I don't know who I am in relationship or I don't know who I am at work or with kids or like whatever it is. So how does, how does one develop some type of relationship with the body to help create a kind of compass or orientation towards deepening our sense of self? Because I, I know you've mentioned in this conversation so far that the body can sort of leave clues and be a very important piece of the puzzle.

Yeah. So actually the body chapter was my favorite chapter to write, which I did not anticipate at all.

And I think the big thing driving the disconnect between us or in our bodies, but also just deepening the self loss is the way that we have characterized or started to understand that body. For most people, the body is something you have.

Existentially, it's something you are. Okay, very important distinction. Yes, you have it, but you are it. You cannot treat it as a vessel, as a tool, as a possession. The second you start to do that, you objectify it. It's no longer you, you don't take it as seriously. I think when I see individuals who are incredibly self aware, who are incredibly, you know, they do the mental decluttering, they figure out their emotions, they work on their past traumas and they're disconnected from their body, they're still not going to understand themselves because there's a very key component that's missing. Like one third of you is missing. And so I think what the problem is is not understanding like the concept of the lived body, which is another existential kind of framework of like your body's the mediator. Your body is what allows you to participate in the world. It's also what allows you to accept, experience yourself in the world. Your body is so important. Like I cannot emphasize that enough. And the fact that we've made our body a trend, the fact that we mistreat our bodies, the fact that it's just so disrespectful to what it actually is. It's almost like, and I think I have an example, it's like complimenting a neurosurgeon on their hair when they just like saved someone's life. You know, it's like saying like, oh wow, you have really nice Hair. And it's like, like, that is not what his role is. That is not what his capacity. Like that compliment does not, like, encompass his capacities or his role. And so I think changing our understanding of the body is so critical of, like, experiencing ourselves and the world and doing activities that bring us inward are very important.

I remember a couple years ago working with a guy who.

Had a lot of infidelity, you know, and one of the things that, that I put forward with was just this sort of like, challenge of sobriety. And so I said, okay, we're gonna, you know, you're gonna be sober for 30 days and let's just see what happens. And he's like, okay, well, what's the point of that? Like, why would I, why would I do that? I'm gonna cut off all these women. I'm, you know, I'm not going to text them, I'm not going to go and meet up with them. And I was like, well, the purpose of that is to see what arises. The purpose of that is to see what actually comes up, you know, from your physical body in these moments where you're wanting to text them or go meet up with them and to kind of start to see what's actually going on inside of you. And it was fascinating because, you know, after week one, he was like, it feels a little uncomfortable, but I think I can do this. And after week two, it was like, this really is hard. And then after week three, he's like, I actually just don't know how to console myself or soothe myself because all of this grief and all of this anxiety and all of this sadness, loneliness is starting to come up, right? And it's like, well, yeah, you've been living in your head for so long.

One of my very first clients when I was an intern was like a 20 something year old male that had. He came in because he's like, I masturbate too much. That was his concern. I remember I was like, okay, this is one of my first clients.

I was like, here we go, here we go.

And I read about it in my book.

Welcome to my, welcome to my DMs.

Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. So seriously. But it was like, he was just like, I want to have a healthy relationship. The amount of porn I watch, I masturbate like eight to ten times a day. Like I. And I feel gross because he's like, cognitively understand I'm objectifying them. This is not how women should be treated. I feel so disgusting every time I do it. But, like, I can't help myself. And I remember, like, we were sitting there, we were talking for a couple sessions, and because of the way that he described women and women's bodies, like, it really detracted from the fact that he was describing his own body. As in, like, I didn't clue in right away. I was an intern. And I was just, like, after a while, I realized, like, the way he's speaking about his own body is really degrading. Like, it's really crude. It's really. It's equally crude and degrading as how he's speaking about women. And then we started to work together, and in the end, what, you know, the outcome was or the realization was that he did it as a way to ground. What if it's very similar, of, like, he had a trauma he didn't want to deal with, he wanted to feel like himself, he wanted to embody himself. And what is more embodied than an orgasm? Do you know what I mean? Like, what is more embodying than feeling everything and feeling that sensitivity and that rush and then adrenaline? And so he was doing it as a way to feel more like himself. And then at the same time, he did an action that made him feel less like himself. And so it was a really difficult thing to try to navigate. So, you know, in this particular case, we figured out other ways he can ground and feel embodied. But I think it happens a lot more than people think of. Like, you're seeking for yourself. You're seeking for embodiment, for grounding, for soothing your body, seeking something through others, because we haven't been taught to do it ourselves.

Amen. Amen to all of that. All right, well, this has been fun. We could probably go down many more rabbit holes, which I think we will, once you've done your whole book tour. I'd love to have you, you know, back on maybe in the new year and go go down some more existential rabbit holes about culture and society or just modern dating. Because I think the one thing that we didn't touch on is how all of this shit shows up in dating.

It does. It sure does. Stay tuned. 2024.

There we go. There we go. Podcast number two. Where can people find out more about you? Obviously, we'll have the links to your book. It's on me in the show notes. But where should people go to follow you?

Sure. So Millennial Therapist is my Instagram handle. Probably where I'm the most active. And then I did start a substack newsletter that is more existential. So if you're interested in some of the more existential topics. That's where I write weekly letters and it's free, so Substack. Sarah Kubrick.

Awesome. Awesome, awesome, awesome. Well, for everybody that's tuning in, as always, man it forward. Share this episode with somebody that you know will enjoy it. Go and check out Sarah's work and her book. It is well worth the read. And as always, until next week, this is Connor Beaton signing off. See you next time.