How To Make Your Partner Feel Seen (relationship hack) - Nick Solaczek

Ways in which we can support our partner in being heard and being seen.

Can I sense what my partner is experiencing right now, what they're feeling, what's happening with them, and just step outside of my own self absorption for a moment, my own opinions and ideas about right or wrong, and just sense more about what's happening with them. And for so many guys, what we do is we try to meet our partner's emotional reality with logic, and it never works.

All right, Nick, how are you doing today, brother?

I'm doing great. Thanks for having me on the show.

Yeah, it's so interesting to see how life unfolds sometimes. You know, for those of you that are out there listening to this, Nick, I think I met you, I met your brother. I remember having coffee at JJ Bean with your brother and it's probably a decade ago, you know, which is a pretty wild thing in Vancouver, in False Creek, I met you a number of times. It's just been really cool to see your life, your career unfold. So I'm excited to have you on the show and have this conversation.

Now.

Let'S start where we always start. I have some random follow up questions, but let's start where we always start, which is tell us a story about a defining moment in your life that made you who you are today.

Well, there's a lot of stories I would like to maybe tell that might maybe make me look good or puff up my ego a bit. The thing that comes to mind is actually a moment in 2016 and I was in a really tough point in my life. I was making $2,000 a month, and that was after tax. My rent was 1,000 bucks, which, man, that was the glory days of paying rent. And I was 20,000 some odd dollars in debt. So if you do the math, you kind of get a sense of, okay, Nick's in a tough spot. I later Learned that actually 20,000 wasn't a lot compared to what some people were struggling with. Quarter of a million million dollars in personal debt and just really in bad situations. But for me, I was working a job that I hated. I was working at a car dealership in service. I was basically a shuttle driver, checking people in, taking them to their home or moving their.

This, this job for $16 an hour that I hated. And every morning I'd have to rush there, you know, 6, 6:30 in the morning, rush to the dealership. I was driving about 45 minutes to work. And sometimes, actually often most days, I would hit the snooze button and sleep in because I didn't care about this job. I didn't want to go there. I wanted nothing to do with it. And one morning I'm doing about 90 kilometers an hour in a 50 zone.

Just past City Cigar. I think that's on 6th Ave in Vancouver for those of you who know the area. And I get tagged by a cop on a bike. He pulls me over and the icing on the cake here is that I'm not driving my own car. I'm driving a car share. And in Vancouver that's called Evo car share. And when you're doing 40 over the speed limit in this city, your car gets impounded. But it's not my car. So now this, I got to pay a service charge on this. Anyway, at the end of the day, this whole situation racks up to cost me a couple grand for one one choice that I made on a Wednesday morning. And that moment hit me like a spiritual two by four across the chest. And it was a big wake up call to some of the challenges that I had that I wasn't facing directly. And in that moment, I walked away from the scene to take the bus to work because I no longer had a car share. And.

Really what struck me or what came to mind was this book I'd been reading by Ryan Holiday, the Obstacle is the Way. And I thought, isn't this a perfect moment for me to face head on, you know, the obstacle that's in my way, which is that I don't make enough money, I'm in debt, I don't work a job that I love, and I need to make a change. And so a couple days later, I did something I thought I would never do. I approached the manager of that car dealership and I asked him for a job in sales selling cars. Because I saw people walking around in suits, smiling most of the time. Seemed like they were enjoying what was going on. And that was a really hard thing for me to do because I'd kind of rejected sales a little bit. My father's a fantastic salesman and there was a part of me that kind of wanted to do something else. I was going to be an artist, you know, I tried band management, I've tried promoting shows. I've tried all kinds of different things to get away from maybe using some of this innate talent and ability that I have in sales and marketing. So one thing led to another. They accepted me, gave me the job, gave me a shot. I sometimes joke that pretty much anybody with a pulse can get a job selling cars. And if you've Ever gone to buy a car at a dealership? You know, a little bit what I'm talking about. Some people are great, some people are not. Maybe that's just every industry. But quickly I tripled my income. I triple my income in about 45 to 60 days. And I started feeling a sense of progress in a way by taking more of a leadership role in my life and taking more responsibility for my situation. Now, the truth is, the job is not ultimately, you know, what I wanted to do. It wasn't working with people, it wasn't in personal development. I wasn't having conversations every day that were deeply meaningful to me. But it really set me up on this course of working for myself. Because the dealership was 100% commission. And looking back on that experience, it's exactly what I needed in order to prepare myself for being an entrepreneur and doing something that I really, really cared about. Now, there's a whole bunch of other details to that story, but really there's just this this morning where I got hit. And I think all of us have a story like that. We get hit with a spiritual two by four, we get sick, our partner leaves us, we experience a traged, some kind. In my case, I was lucky that it wasn't worse. There's all kinds of different ways it could play out. But that really led me to a more kind of empowered place in my life. Even though I felt so stuck, I felt like there's this big weight on my shoulders and I was backed up against the wall in some way. It ignited a bit of a fire in me and a bit of a fight in a sense, to face the challenges that I've got and attack them directly. And I have to keep coming back to that as I grow and change and face new challenges. Because there's always stuff, you know, if you're looking.

And that's also been a really empowering perspective for me in my own relationship about taking the lead. And I think for me, and I think for a lot of guys, we don't want to take more leadership. We don't want responsibility, actually, we don't want to be responsible for anything in some way. This is kind of like my shadow self talking. It's like, I just want to be a boy. I don't want to have to pay taxes, I don't want to have to pay rent. I don't want to have to do all the heavy lifting. Can someone just do it for me? Help me out, you know, win the lotto. And I tried that as well, you know, I Tried playing poker for a living for a while. This is before this incident in the car dealership.

So, you know, for me, that really set me up on a positive trajectory. I definitely had lots of challenges over the coming years of that dealership and eventually quit to start coaching full time. And I felt like I was ready, and I felt like I had kind of suffered enough in a way and paid my dues such that I was really willing to try and give it a shot. And I had a certain level of belief in myself that I could do it.

So that was definitely a profound morning there with. With the police officer on the side of the road. And it set me up to be where I am today and to keep pushing and growing and taking responsibility for the things that aren't working in my life. And as hard as that morning was, I'm also feel a lot of gratitude that it happened, because I wonder if I just made it to work on time, you know, what would have happened.

Yeah, well, I think it's interesting because one of the pieces that. I mean, there's a couple of things that stood out to me. One, I've played poker against you, and I'm not good at poker. And I think. I think if I remember correctly, you did fairly well that night.

I did not. Because, you know, I think sometimes when I play poker, just depending on my. My mindset, I'm either just like, you know, taking all the risks or taking none at all or finding that happy medium is. Is in there somewhere. But there's something to be said for finding something that you have a certain level of competence in. And I know for myself, I did a number of jobs that were sort of menial. You know, I, like, delivered water for Culligan. I worked in a gravel pit in northern Alberta, like, shoveling and driving a Bobcat. And there was something fun about it. Built sidewalks, like, I did all kinds of shit.

But there is something to be said of finding a job, and this is what I sort of stood out for me Finding something in life where you have a certain level of competence. And that competence over time kind of like bolsters us, you know, and does something internally to us that builds our confidence, that helps push us in a direction. So I always tell a lot of young men because, like, on my YouTube channel, it's. It's a lot of young guys, actually, which has been very interesting to see. What I'll usually say to young men is, like, you know, go venture out into the world and find things that you can develop some competence in. Where you feel a sense of like, actually, I'm, I'm pretty good at this. And not only you feel a sense of I'm good at this, but the results that you're getting reinforce that you're good at it. That can be incredibly rewarding. And if we don't have that, you know, I think that can lead us to all types of nice guy behavior seeking validation in all the wrong places. But yeah, so really awesome. Thank you for sharing that journey.

I was going to share a story of getting pulled over on my motorcycle by, by a cop where my bike got impounded. I don't think I learned the same lessons, but I was also like 21 years old and, you know, basically told the cop where to go and that didn't go very well. So I'm glad that you learned your lesson during that time. It took me a couple more tries in, in my wanders with police officers and, and driving. What created the segue.

Becoming Imago certified? What was the draw towards that? Because now you do a lot of work with couples, and we're going to talk extensively about relationships today, but just give the listener, give me a little bit of a 30 seconds of what pulls you in that direction to want to go learn from Harlo Hendricks and learn the Imago structure. Why that structure when there's a big field and gamut of tools that are out there in the therapeutic space for couples?

Well, a mutual friend of ours, Mark Groves, recommended that I take a look at their training. And the reason that I was open to that was that growing up, I wondered why people get married if they're so unhappy in the marriage, you know, why do people get married and stay together if they don't really get along, you know? And as a kid, I could see it with my parents in moments where, you know, they're having conflict, trying to work through something. I could see it in my relatives, you know, I could see it in my grandparents that, oh, man, they don't see eye to eye on this and, oh, that was kind of a dismissive comment. Or, oh, they just seem like they don't like each other. Now, that's not the whole picture, obviously, for people that are together. But as a kid, you know, I kind of developed this more avoidant perspective, which is that maybe relationships don't make too much sense or committed ones and better not have kids, better not get married.

And.

And really the question there is kind of like, hey, why? How does the dream become the nightmare? Which is Harville's question. And his original Pondering that led him down this path to creating the Imago relationship theory. So in a way I really actually relate to Harvl's experience and to that question that he asked not only when he got his went through his first divorce, but when he was younger as well. And so that, that's kind of that asking that question and considering that, I think the training just resonated with me, the framework resonated with me. And as I took different stages and phases of that training, it just really all made sense and clicked. And when I started to apply the teachings and insights to my own relationship, things got better and I started to see and notice things that were completely out of my awareness before. So the experience has been really positive and profound. And that's what led me to stay with the process and get certified and really dedicate my life to teaching these principles and working with people.

Yeah, I mean we'll get into some of those principles, but maybe let's enter into this conversation through the door of where do you see a lot of modern relationships breaking down? Like what are the pinch points that are causing relationships to decay, erode, fall apart from your perspective?

Well, I think the high level pattern is that we're all drawn towards relationships because we want to attain love. We want an adventure, partner of some kind, we want a companion. And we're missing that. Our unconscious has a different agenda. There's a part of our psyche that's actually wanting to finalize and complete some unfinished business from our childhood. And I think it's really kind of a tragedy in a way that we get drawn into relationships to attain love and we're missing this information about part of what's going on, at least according to the Mago theory. And this is now my personal belief and experience that that thing about childhood is true. But we get drawn into relationships and we start experiencing the differences between us and our partner. And over the years we can cope with that stuff in different ways. Differences in our sexuality, differences in the way that we eat, the way that we take care of our body, or the way that we manage our finances and the way that we cope through smoking or drinking or pouring ourselves into video games or maybe using pornography more than it's good for us or any.

Of all of them in one night.

Or all in one night.

Just a. Just a myriad of all the options, right?

Yes. Let's roll a joint, get a beer. Exactly. Let's get all the things going, get the Cheetos in and you know, I think all guys can resonate with some part of that.

So the point I'm saying is that, you know, it's kind of this tragedy that we get into relationships, we want to be in love, we want to be connected with another. We've all got this desire and we end up in really difficult scenarios because we're not relationally competent and we don't know how to work through some of the challenges that we face. And we end up getting sicker or fatter or, you know, more, more foggy in terms of our perspective and our outlook. More shut down, more defensive, hopeless, stuck, trapped. We get these kinds of experiences and more serious disease, I think comes from that as well. So this is one of the bigger challenges and you know, for the people listening to this podcast and who I think is probably your demographic and certainly I know who's coming to work with me, the main challenge is that we don't know how to talk to each other without pissing each other off. We don't know how to listen and we've all got a not good enough story that we tend to just play out. Every time our partner says something we don't totally like, we take it personally and we get reactive. So I think this is true for all couples, but it is the main pattern and the main issue. And people are missing key insights, they're missing key information about their partner. Anytime your partner gets upset and they don't make sense to you, their reaction doesn't make sense. That is a moment where you're getting a big flag. You can think of it as a red flag. Not that necessarily need to leave your partner, but this thing you need to pay attention to and you need to get more curious. This is a signal if your partner doesn't make sense to you, they're upset. Is not clicking logically. That is a signal that you need to get more curious. Because their hysteria is historical. There's some context from the past that's driving the reactivity in the present moment. And when couples get that, they, they, they're able to transform and they're able to move towards a more empowered experience of being together, which is about healing, about becoming allies in each other's growth and development.

How would you say that something like social media has infiltrated modern day relationships? And from your perspective, what's the impact been on the average couple who's, you know, both on social media, maybe multiple social media platforms? How have you seen that impact relationships?

Well, social media has done a lot of things and I think the biggest challenge is this hyper comparison. So whether it's people comparing themselves to other people's lifestyles and feeling shame or unworthiness, comparing oneself to another person's body, to another person's partner.

It really presents often a illusion of what's really going on. So I'll tell you this experience in my relationship. My partner will look at Instagram and she'll see someone writing about, you know, how much money this couple makes together or how great their tantric sex is together. And there's something in there that sparks her yearning and desire and something's important to her and she brings that to me often in a. Tries to request positively, but sometimes it's in a more anxious, you know, needy way. And we work through that. We use the dialogue always to try to, you know, get, to get, get to the bottom of things. But the point is, is that I can see something or she can see something on the Internet creates kind of an anxiety in us that maybe we're not enough or we need to do more in some way. And then it can start creating conflict and misunderstandings between us when we take that stuff personally. And all the while, the post, the content itself is not a true picture of actually what relationships are about. Beyond this, I see every single day that I open any social media platform a million bad ideas and just, just takes that are completely wrong. For example, your relationship should be easy.

You know, and.

If you've been in relationship for, for more than six months, you know that it's not easy, you.

Know, you know, and it's not supposed to, it's not supposed to be easy. I agree with you on this one. I have, I've seen a lot of content out there that's like, you know, he should just know what you want and be able to meet your needs. And, and she should, you know, if she doesn't figure out what you want, then, you know, leave them. And I'm like, who are these people espousing this? Like, it's just nonsense. I think, I think it's so detrimental to the average person because there is something inherent, like, look, I'm not saying that your relationship should be the most difficult thing in your life. I'm not saying that it should be the most challenging aspect of your existence. But your relationship, like anything else that is worthwhile, you know, having the type of body that you want, having the type of bank account that you want, having the type of vocation and career that you want or business that you want, that is going to require a significant amount of effort. And this notion that relationships should be effortless really seems to have infiltrated the collective conscious in some way. And I see all these small messages and large messages that advocate for some type of non responsibility, that you're not responsible for advocating for your needs or your wants or your desires or just how you want your relationship to look.

So yes, I'm on the same page. Tell me more, what else, what are some of the other messages that you see that are harmful?

I think just one thing on this point of easiness. I want my relationship to be easy. Everyone wants their relationship to be easy. And that is an entirely different conversation because you can say, okay, this is my want and this is my desire. So how can we make that come alive? How could I co create that with my partner to the best of our ability to maybe reduce our suffering, increase our understanding, increase the felt sense of intimacy and connection? And that takes work. You know, it takes commitment. Social media, I think one of the most triggering things for partners about social media and you know, traditionally I hear this from women a lot and I've seen a lot of writing from women on it is their male partners following booty models or porn stars or you know, the.

Stereotypical girl who's in a bikini on her Instagram every day with the scantily clad photos. And that, that's very triggering for partners because they're feeling like, well, why are you following this girl? You know, why are you liking all of her photos? And it feels, to some people, it feels like straight up betrayal. It registers in their body as abandonment. And at a lesser level, there's just general feelings of jealousy. And I see and notice a lot of male partners meeting that with defensiveness, meeting that with dismissiveness or avoidance, and basically invalidating their partner's feelings, which is another way to really increase the amount of fighting is tell your partner that they don't make sense and they just need to relax.

When your partner feels unseen, unheard and invalidated, they just get more anxious and they typically are going to use negativity to try to not feel that way.

Can you though? I think those words get said a lot online.

In conversations about relationship. This notion of like, yeah, I'll have guys come in to men's weekends or come to work with me. And it's like, yeah, my wife wants, she keeps saying that I, I'm not seeing her, I don't hear her. She wants to feel more seen, she wants to feel more heard. That type of language, I think sometimes can be vague. I think for a lot of guys who, you know, we're pretty rational and logical most of the time where it's like, okay, I mean, I do see you and I do hear what you're saying. So can you dig into that a little further and give some tactical examples for the guys that are out there listening? They're like, okay, I've heard that from my girlfriend, I've heard that from my wife. Decode this for me. What the hell does it actually mean?

Yeah, yeah. So what does it mean to actually make your partner feel seen and heard? How can we break that down a little bit? When your partner says something to you about their experience, and if we're talking sort of in a heteronormative sense here, that the guy is hearing something from his woman, how can you maintain a sense of.

Presence, which is like durable curiosity about her? Turn off the TV channel of your life.

And just be with her experience for a moment without having to fix it, without having to change it and see what kind of difference that makes. And can you hold this pose, as John Weiland likes to say, can you hold this pose for 30 seconds, for 10 minutes, for an hour? You know, and that might be hard to do it for a minute. For many people, it's near impossible to do it for a minute until they learn that this is important. They start making an effort and slowly they're able to do it. And they're going to have setbacks and make mistakes. But, you know, can we turn off the TV channel of our life and just actually be with our partner for a moment? Get curious about them instead of getting defensive or offensive in order to protect ourself and our identity or our sense of power.

And there's a couple key things you might do, which is to turn off distractions, put your phone down, turn towards your partner, make eye contact with them, and try to practice this thing called attunement. It's just being with your partner in the moment, hearing them out. And that doesn't mean you should let your partner go on for two or three hours on a tirade, putting you down or criticizing you. Boundaries are important, but when this time is right and you're both available, to just be able to do that, to try to practice this more often.

It'S really about seeking understanding rather than proving yourself right.

I like that. I like that some. I think my wife and I led little couples follow up workshop last night for a virtual group. That was part of a workshop that we led for couples. And part of what I said was sometimes we need to put the context aside and put the Experience forward, you know, so it's like sometimes we get lost in. I find myself doing this too. I'll get lost in the details of what my wife is saying sometimes. And I'm like, okay, like, you know, this is going on, the relationship, or she's talking about something that's happening in her business. And I'm trying to track all the details and, you know, figure out how she might be feeling because of that. And then what I've found is when I can put the context aside, when I can actually just put the details aside a little bit and go more for her direct felt experience. Like, what's actually going on inside of you, you know, as you're talking about this, what's it like? You know, what's. What are you experiencing? And I'll ask certain questions that I found to be super helpful, like, what do you want me to understand about that? Like, that's a godsend of a question I found. You know, it's just. What do you want me to understand about that? Well, I want you to understand that when, you know, my mom, this or this happened in my business, that it made me feel X, Y and Z, and I'm like, oh, okay, got it. I understand that now. And so I think that sometimes, to come back to social media, there's some very beneficial stuff that's out there. I love your content, by the way. I think you've done a very good job at curating some messages and teachings that are very practical and tactical and understandable. I do think that there's a lot of content that's out there that's like, nonsense, you know, where it's just lost in the minutia. And sometimes these things in relationships are more simple than we are making them to be. You know, they're more simple than we're making them be. So I love the breakdown you're saying. Anything else that you would add into that in terms of ways in which we can support our partner in being heard and being seen and prioritizing those things for. For them in communication?

Well, one of the things, Connor, that you just said, you just described this moment with your partner where you're trying to sense more of what her experience is. You're trying to sense more of what she's feeling. This is a kind of relationship mastery. This is something that all people have an ability to do, but we just don't know how. We need to learn. And it's really about empathy. Can I sense what my partner is experiencing right now? What they're feeling, what's happening with them and, and just step outside of my own self absorption for a moment and my own opinions and ideas about right or wrong and just sense more about what's happening with them. And for so many guys, what we do is we try to meet our partner's emotional reality with logic and it never works. And part of the reason that happens is about the way that boys are actually socialized to begin with, which is boys don't cry, suck it up, stuff it down, and let's move on and don't be a baby. So we actually learn to compromise part of our core self, which is about sensing and feeling. Part of that is actually repressed. It's not nurtured or developed in certain ways through society and in family systems. And we learn to become more thinkers and actors. And isn't it interesting that if you resonate as someone who's a great thinker and you take action in life, that you are probably attracted to someone who's more of a sensor and a feeler and their emotional reality sometimes is triggering to you because of how big some of the emotions are and how much it doesn't make sense. And this is part of the dynamic about opposites attract, that the person who's more of the thinker and the feeler is attract or thinker and actor is attracted to the sensor and the feeler. The person that's more in touch with their emotions, the person that cries more, they're with, they're attracted to someone who is able to take action, doesn't get as overwhelmed with circumstances, is able to quickly come up with solutions. And these people have a lot to learn from each other once we can get past the fact that our partner's difference is not a total threat to our reality, that they can be different and we can be safe, you know?

Yeah, yeah. Well, and I think I've said before, like, learning, learning to love the parts of our partner that we love is easy. And learning to love the parts of our partner that we don't like is, is part of the work. Like, that's part of the mission, you know, because that's where I find for myself. That's where all my shit comes online. You know, when there's parts of my wife that start to show up that I'm like, I don't really like these parts of you. That's where all my stuff comes online, right? My reactivity, my, you know, wanting to shut down, my wanting to judge. Like, that's where all my stuff comes up into the surface and, and I think that's the case for everybody. You know, when the parts of our, of our partner show up that we don't like or we don't know how to deal with, or we don't understand or are different from us, that's where all of our stuff comes up, our insecurities, fears, etc. So tell me a little bit about.

Maybe some of the foundational tenets or principles of Imago. What are some of the assumptions, what's the theory based off of? And how do we, we'll start to move towards, how do we actually apply this, this theory and this framework to some of the challenges that we've been talking about to show up in relationships?

Well, one of the main principles of this theory is that we are all attracted to someone who reminds us of our primary caretakers. So we get together in relationship, recreate familiar love. And in this sense, familiar love is about our home as a child, about the environment. And for better or worse, we have a tendency to recreate that either through our own behavior or by attracting a partner who shows up as one of our parents or both. So just as an example, if as a kid you felt like the worst parts about your parents, their, their weaknesses were that maybe they were cold, anxious, frugal, controlling, and the best parts about them were that they were loving, hard working, creative, had a good sense of humor, it's highly likely, and this is pretty much 100% of the time in my clinical work, I find that people are attracted to and end up with a partner who also can show up in these ways, both the positive and the negative. And Imago states that this conflict, this challenge, is actually a growth opportunity for both partners to wake up to the fact that there's something here to be resolved and the incompatibility, the perceived difference is not always grounds for separation and divorce. It actually is grounds for a conscious relationship. You just have to be willing to grow, you have to be willing to learn, and that there are parts of ourselves that can be reclaimed in the process. So when I talk about sensing, feeling, thinking, acting, these are these parts that can be reclaimed, that can come back online so we can experience more of a sense of wholeness, have more of experience of actually being alive and connected to the world, connected to our partner, and there's a lot of beautiful things that come with that. Transformation is not always a pretty process, but we can certainly feel more resilient and more empowered to face the challenges once we actually have the experience of working through it. It's not enough for Me to say this out loud. Couples actually need to have the experience of working through the dynamic, working through the power struggle even once or twice, to get the sense that I'm not bullshitting them, that like, there's something here, you know, we need to actually access memories from the past and we need to connect the dots to understand this repetitive fight, this repetitive argument that we're having is actually 100% about childhood. So everyone's got a personal relationship story, and that's one of the things that I help people map out. But imago basically is this Latin term for image. And that image is this composite of the positive and negative traits of mom and dad.

Yeah, it's interesting because my.

Framework is always around any relational issues or attachment issues. Like when it comes back, when it comes down to if there's boundary issues, communication issues, intimacy issues that are showing up in a relationship, they are almost always inevitably attachment issues. And I think where a lot of couples work goes awry is that it doesn't actually look at attachment at all. And what I like about what you're saying with Imago is that it's very much rooted in this notion of your primary attachments. The blueprint of how you relate to other people is going to be the blueprint that you learned growing up from zero to however old. But specifically within those first several years, it's so foundational. We know the developmental stages of kids and what's interesting is having a two year old right now, I see I've been able to witness firsthand the developmental stages unfolding within my boy, which is a wild ride, you know, to see secure attachment, to see when he's like a little anxious. Like we just went and took this trip where we were gone for eight days. It's the first time that we were away from him. And then, you know, we came back. He was so excited. And then the, you know, the next day I had to go into town and. And because I was leaving, even though my wife was there, he was very upset. You know, he was like, where are you going? And, you know, sort of afraid that I was, that, you know, that I was going to be leaving again. And I came back and he was okay. And you know, and then the secure bond sort of started to. To set back in. But it's so interesting to see that how our relationships are formed in childhood becomes the foundation for how we then relate to others, how we attach to others, how we connect to others. So are there certain patterns within Imago that need to be addressed? Are there certain like, you know, relational pattern patterning, issues that need to be addressed? Or are there certain tools that get deployed that can help couples bridge the gap in their communication and make sure that they are able to address some of these sort of like relational blueprints?

There's a lot of paradoxes in relationship. And the anxious person is attracted to the avoidant. The one who hangs on tight and clings is attracted to the person who detaches. One of the main things that is taught in Imago is this dynamic about minimizing and maximizing. So the person who tends to be more sensitive and defensive maybe is more classically avoidant, avoids drawing attention towards themselves, or avoids drawing attention towards issues in the relationship. They can be like a little bit of a turtle in a shell, rigid. They're fearful, but the way that they deal with their upset is different. They tend to constrict the energy of the situation or the energy of their body. They are attracted to someone who's a maximizer, who expands the energy of the situation, who, instead of getting defensive, they get offensive and they draw attention towards issues and they want to talk about things and they want to work it out now. And they can be like the storm cloud throwing energy or lightning bolts at their partner. And the more that they maximize, the more the other person minimizes. You know, the more that person withdraws and shuts down, the more the other person expands and chases them. And we get this kind of windshield wiper effect to some degree, you know, leaning in, and then the person leans out and the other person comes back. And that doesn't work well. It just creates more anxiety. So one of the things that I teach is really this. This piece around minimizing, maximizing, and trying to create more awareness about what your default communication style is. And a more complicated term for this would be childhood adaptation, because we all learn to do things in childhood to survive dynamics in the family system. And then we play those strategies out in our adult relationships, thinking that they work, but they don't. And they just create more upset. And they actually recreate core negative scenes from our childhood and leave us feeling hopeless and stuck, wondering why it is our partner doesn't get us or why they can't just show up for us in the way that we want. And it's complicated. One person experiences distress with closeness. The other person experiences distress of separation. And we got these attachment wounds that you're talking about. So the first piece is just actually becoming aware that these dynamics are happening so that we can notice that, see if it's actually true for us. Try to find ourselves within the pattern. And that creates opportunities for new choices. And if we make new choices, we can actually create changes.

So after that piece, because I can hear people in my audience like, yeah, that's us. That's my relationship. I've been in that, or I'm in that right now.

Help.

So after the awareness piece, you know, we start to see this pattern playing out. And maybe it's helpful for us to really define some of the. Some of the, like, description of that pattern, right? Like when it begins, when the person pulls away, what causes it, what causes us to pull away, etc. How do we begin to interrupt that pattern and create something more secure where each individual is leaning in? And maybe if you can break it down to like, what is the pull away person need to do and what is the. How did you describe it? Like throwing, you know, thunderbolts into their emotional thunderbolts into the relationship, constantly wanting to talk about the conflict. What does each individual need to sort of tackle to undo this pattern?

One of the main things you can do is to ask for what you want in a positive context. Too often we use negativity to try to get what we want. We criticize, shame, blame, put down our partner in an effort to get them to love us the way that we want to be loved. Our part of our brain thinks it works. I can tell you it doesn't. And we need to find a new way. It's easy to be frustrated. It's easy to complain. It's much more difficult, difficult to take responsibility for what we need and ask for it in clear terms in a vulnerable, loving way. And just for example, if I got a problem with how much my partner spends online shopping, instead of me saying.

You spent $1,500 again this month on clothes, I mean, what's going on? I could say something like, honey, I noticed that we're spending a lot of money on clothes. And it's so important to me that you and me develop, you know, financial security so we can have just, you know, a more peaceful existence and lower our stress levels. And I want to work together with you on that. Can we talk about this in another way or could we talk about a budget or, you know, how do you feel about that? Does anything come up for you and being curious about your partner's experience?

There's a more in depth method that I teach, which is the imago dialogue, which creates two roles. And I'll tell you, it's groundbreaking. One person listens and the other talks. And so many of our conversations go sideways because the listening is almost non existent and our partner's just talking at us, maybe in a monologue format, maybe they're talking down to us.

And now we're feeling Shakespearean monologue.

Yeah, yeah. And then why hath thou. Exactly. Yes, yeah. On, on a podium. And you know, we can start to feel unequal. And when that, that sense of equality starts to go down, we start to feel anxious and we get defensive. So part of the opportunity here for the person that constricts and gets quiet and kind of works things out in their own mind and doesn't talk to their partner about issues, they need to open up more, they need to take more ownership of what they're feeling, what's going on within them, to ask for what they need in clear and positive terms, be more present, be more available to the other. And as I'm saying, these, these bullet point items, we could write a book on these. And at a high level, if you can find a way to stretch into one of these opportunities inside of the moment with your partner, inside of the conflict, it can change your life. It's just that you got to put some energy into it. You got to focus on it. You got to try a new way because the old way isn't working for the maximizer. It's a little bit different for the person that expands, wants to talk about everything. Now they're getting worked up about something and they'll tell you all about how they feel. They need to back off a little bit. Their needs matter, their reality is important, but they need to contain more of their experience, work on self regulating and self soothing. I would argue that's an opportunity for pretty much everybody. But this backing off, containing more of their experience and developing more of a sense of self. The maximizer. One of their wounds as a child is about invisibility and not being seen and heard. And they can lack sometimes confidence or conviction to work things out in their own way. They can sometimes lack hobbies and passions and interest or purpose in life. And these are generalities. Not everyone's going to fit this template exactly. But the point is, if they can just take a breath, back off, you know, even though in the moment they're feeling, this is urgent, we need to talk about this now. Check in and ask themselves, okay, is that really true? Could we talk about it this afternoon? What would happen if I gave myself 24 hours just to sit with this experience and schedule a time with my partner to talk tomorrow? It's kind of like anyone who's ever gone to your keyboard and written an angry, pissed off email, or you just hit reply immediately, there's something you got that you don't like. That message is typically not going to be.

As articulate and grounded and effective as you'd like it to be. So we can benefit from just taking a breath, taking a pause, waiting 24 hours to respond, and seeing how that change is part of the dynamic. And this can help to cut through some of the reactivity and those spontaneous, negative reactions that create more upset in our partnership. So those are the main opportunities for these two communication styles.

I love that, and I appreciate you laying that out in a sort of tactical way. And I would. I would really encourage the audience. You know, if you're somebody that's in a relationship, even if you're not, you know, you can reflect on your past relationship and see, you know, which archetype are you, and maybe do some writing about what Nick just laid out. But if you are in a relationship, this is probably something that you want to listen to with your partner and say, okay, which one am I? And how does that show up in conflict? How does this show up when, you know, things are getting tough between the two of us? And I think that can be a very, very beneficial thing to do because it'll give some insight into, okay, what's my role in perpetuating the conflict? And how do I actually, you know, begin to navigate that on my own? Because I think what can generally happen in a lot of relationships is that we move into finger pointing, right? It's like, well, you need to do this and you need to do that. And I think that's one of the other things that I've seen a lot of on social media is there's a lot of, like, your partner needs to do this, and your partner needs to do that, and they need to make sure that it's like, you know, personal responsibility in a relationship is one of the most important elements, you know, because as soon as we get into the driver's seat of telling our partner what they're doing wrong, we're. We're kind of losing the game, you know, like, we're kind of losing the footing in. In the relationship. And, you know, this is something that my wife and I have worked really diligently on is as soon as. As soon as that aspect of. Of relating starts to rear its head, it's like we pause immediately. I, I've. I've talked about this before on the show, but having certain Ground rules for what's cause for a pause in your relationship is so paramount. And for me, that's just one of them. As soon as I hear myself or I hear her going down this, this pathway of like, you need to do this or, you know, I think you need to look at this or you should take care of that. It's like, okay, we're gonna pause here. What's going on? Yes. Why am I saying that? What's happening inside of me? So I love that you laid that out and I hope that people take action on that to start to dig into it. Let's shift gears a little bit out of communication and conflict and into sex and intimacy. Tell me a little bit about. We're just going to return to the modern relationships. What are some of the main challenges that you see happening in couples when it comes to the realm of sex and intimacy? Because there's something like. I think the stat is that 30% of couples after the two year mark will be sexless. And when I, when I remember, I remember hearing that and reading that, I was like staggered by that. I didn't think that it would be that high, but it makes sense. And I think sexless is defined as, you know, four or five times a year or less.

So what are some of the core pieces that you see impacting sex and intimacy in relationships? And then maybe we'll pull in imago to see where, where that goes or just like your personal take. Because I think that's important.

Yeah, well, one of the first things about sex is that it's totally X rated. And I don't mean that in any kind of pornographic way. I mean, it was totally X rated for you to even be yourself in your family system for the most part. I'm not talking to you, Connor. But that's certainly true for me. Might be true for you. And I could, I'd bet big, big money because I'm a Vegas guy, that it's true for everybody listening, that there was parts of you that were totally restricted, not allowed. That's not welcome here. Including your own sexuality. You know, it's not okay to masturbate. Not okay to. I was raised Catholic, so it wasn't okay to think about anybody naked. Wasn't okay to swear, wasn't okay to do anything. And then I had to go apologize to some old man in a pew, you know, who's wearing a robe and tell him about my sins and really affirm that I am bad and I'm wrong. And there's something I need to Apologize for and I better do my prayers, otherwise I'm not redeemable. I mean, that setup, whether you're raised Catholic, Christian, or some other denomination or religion, it doesn't matter. It's usually a part of a lot of these systems. So that in itself is just a big challenge that, you know, it's not okay for me to have fantasies. It's not okay for me to have sexual wants or needs, or be into things that are kinky or ask my partner for something specific. And part of it is that I just fear that maybe I'll be rejected. I'll fear that, you know, there'll be some consequence for me if I talk about that with them or I bring that to them. Sex is tough when we got these taboo subjects that aren't talked about that get censored on the Internet and Instagram, you know, and the information is restricted in that way. We're also set up for failure because we're not educated. We're not given information about female arousal. A lot of guys don't know that actually your partner needs 20 to 40 minutes of foreplay, you know, in order to be more open to penetration. And there's things like this that can really shift the game if you just actually focus on some key points. But in terms of sex, if we don't feel safe, that's just kryptonite, you know, for our sex life. And that's not about physical safety. It's usually about, actually, I don't feel safe, safe to be me. I don't feel safe to talk about myself in some way. And this isn't a conversation about fragility. This is a conversation about truthfulness, integrity. How are we showing up in our relationship outside of the bedroom such that we're connected? You know, intimacy is not just sexual. Intimacy is emotional, spiritual, intellectual, non, non sexual, hand holding, cuddling, you know, eye gazing. So it's really actually these other issues in the relationship, these emotional psychological challenges that we face, the parts of ourselves that we hide from our partner that start to create distance from them, and then we feel disconnected. And then we can start thinking, well, maybe I should find someone else to love me the way that I want to be loved. Maybe I'll stay with my partner, but I'll put my sexual energy elsewhere because it's safer to do that, because I won't have to face rejection. I won't have to be vulnerable in any kind of way, let my partner know who I really am.

I'm not a trained sexologist, but when couples come into my office. One of the things that I'm thinking is, you know, how's the sex life? Because when you're mad at each other, you're contemplating divorce, things don't feel good. You know, okay, well, what's going on in the intimate realm and what's happening in the space between the couple, which is really.

A concept from Imago, which is that your relationship exists in the space between. It's not in you, it's not in your partner. It's not tangible. You can't box it and sell it. It's an idea you've got in your mind. And the way that you perceive the whole thing and the way that it feels is about what's in that space between. So what kind of touch are you putting into that space? What kind of behavior, actions, sentiments?

Because everything you put in is going to become the shape and the color and the tone and the texture of the relationship. So when it comes to sexuality, one of the things that we all need from our partner is the embodied sense that it is okay to be sexual. So every man, every woman, what they want from their partner is the felt sense that it's okay for me to be sexual in my own unique way, you know, within the boundaries and the agreements of the relationship.

That's a really big one. And oftentimes when people get clear that this is actually one of the messages they crave for their partner, they can begin to design and craft statements that actually would help to bring that. That quality alive, would actually help to make them feel more that way. And it's going to be different for each partner.

Yeah. Just on the notion of, you know, the. Between the two people.

I don't remember where I heard this concept, but I've talked a lot about when Vienna and I have done couples workshops or we work with couples, the notion of the third body, like your relationship, as the third body between the two of you. So there's your physical, emotional, psychological, sexual body. There's your partners, and then there's the relationship as the third body. And it needs nurturing, it needs touch, it needs love, it needs, you know, it needs both individuals to sort of pour into it. And so when you were talking about that, it sort of brought that up for me. And I think that that's so, so valid and so important, especially within the conversation of sex and intimacy.

I think the other. The other piece that. That stands out is this notion of. I think you said X rated, right. That we can't bring our full selves. I often say that sex is the part of the relationship where everything else meets. It's the sort of truth teller on your communication, your level of authenticity, your boundaries in the relations. The truth teller where everything sort of shows up and sort of tests those aspects of the relationship. And so I think it's interesting because I think within modern relationships, sex has become commoditized in some ways. I think a lot of guys have become sort of desensitized in some ways, because you can watch porn, you can watch whatever the hell you want at any given time. You can go on OnlyFans fans and, and pay a woman to sort of give you some girlfriend experience and give you some sort of like, pseudo attachment and pseudo relationship. And, you know, I think that's happening for women as well in some. Some level. But it's interesting because the couples that I've worked with over the years who have phenomenal relationships, part of it is that sex is a priority. You know, sex is a very real priority for both people. That doesn't mean that each individual is like, you know, wild about sex, that it's been like this super important thing their entire lives, but that both people have a commitment and dedication towards prioritizing sex within the relationship. And so on that note, one, do you agree with that? And two, do you have insight into how couples can begin to prioritize sex and intimacy? And are there certain tools that Imago can put forward for couples to deepen their level of sexual connection?

One of the things that Imago teaches is about making appointments with your partner. So in terms of practicing the dialogue or doing relationship maintenance or having regular conversations, one of the strategies that is recommended is to make an appointment, you know, something important you want to talk about, whether it's sex or money or health, something about your feeling that you make an appointment in the moment, make sure you get the agreement consent, your partner's available, and if they're not, you accept that and you schedule it within 24 to 48 hours. Make it a priority. So with sex, one thing that's really hard for people is scheduling sex, scheduling intimacy, dates, scheduling time to be together in an intimate way. And when I say that, I don't mean explicitly sexual, but at least be together, turn off all distractions and have time to yourself that isn't about watching Netflix or doing, you know, some other task. And there's a lot of pressure that's that people feel to perform sexually, and there's a lot of pressure that people feel when they make appointments. So one of the things that me and my partner have worked out, because in terms of arousal systems, everyone's a little bit different. So people can be spontaneous or responsive. And if you resonate with spontaneous, it means you don't want to plan sex. You want it to be fun, exciting in the moment. How am I feeling now? Like, let's go. And if you're responsive, you might actually resonate with, oh, yeah, it's fun to plan and schedule things because then I know it's in the calendar and I can prepare. And then in that moment, once things get sexual for me in a certain way, I will respond to that, or I'll respond to the intimate connection between me and my partner. So this is a challenge. It doesn't work for everyone, but for me and my partner, one of the things we've had to work through is, hey, let's schedule intimacy dates, and let's not put pressure on ourselves that we have to get to an orgasm. And let's not collapse into despair if the sex doesn't go the way that we want. But let's make a priority, and let's make a practice every week. We've got it in the calendar. We're just going to get together and we're going to talk. We're going to do dialogue. We might share appreciations. We might do eye gazing or a tantric breathing exercise, or we might cuddle or light a candle. Just something that's sort of setting the mood. Maybe we put on some music and just set the tone, and let's just come together. And for many couples, that experience is not going to be about sex. It's actually going to be a lot about how they're feeling, what's going on within them, and what is it that they want to talk about or work on. And you can develop and escalate and build this up over time. So many different practices that you might bring to a moment like this, but your relationship is like anything else. If you've ever gone to the gym and you wanted to lose fat or gain muscle, you had to put in the reps, you had to show up. And it's not enough just to go to therapy. It's not enough just to go to an intimacy date. We really actually every day need to make choices that are in service of the place we want our relationship to go. We need to be honoring that vision and the challenge. If we don't have that consciously, then we're going to be driven by a lot of other unconscious stuff that can take us in directions that are not really what we want.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting because, again, I think maybe this is one of those areas where the assumption for some people is like, well, it should just work like sex should just work in the relationship. And, you know, over time, you know, maybe it works in the beginning. What's. I think what's very common for a lot of couples is there's sort of this window between 6 to 8 months or 6 to 10 months where maybe that sexual intimacy is just there, and it is natural, and it's like hot and heavy, and it's great, and you don't have to work or put effort into it. But, you know, 10 years down the road or three years down the road or four years down the road, when there's different contexts in the relationship and there's different relatability and patterns and behaviors, and all these things start to show up.

That might need to change, right? You actually might need to do exactly what you're talking about, which is scheduling this time for intimacy, scheduling this time for connection, scheduling time for discussion, or just clearing the slate for some type of connection. Because I think in a lot of people's lives, what begins to happen is I see a lot of couples settle into routines and settle into this sort of daily habit that shows up in the morning and in the evening with Netflix or whatever it is that they're watching. And that monotony is not conducive for sexual intimacy. And one of the things that I found was interesting. I was listening to this sexologist out of the U.K. she's written, like, 17 books, and for the life, I've been trying to think of her name, and I can't remember it, but she said this interesting thing, which is, it's not men that get bored of sex in relationships. It's women. You know, if you gave a man the option to have sex two, three times a week, but it looked the same way, he'd probably be like, okay, like, not a problem. I'm gonna get laid a couple times a week. Like, we're good. But if you give that option to the majority of women, they're gonna say, no, that's. That's boring. I. I need something more than that. I need something, you know, spontaneous to change or to alter or to look different or sound different or. You know, there has to be some variety that enters into the equation. And I think that that's true for a lot of couples where that monotony that can set in into the relationship with couples where maybe one person's okay with that monotony. But the other person is like, this is not conducive for me to be aroused. You know, this is not conducive for me to, to really want to be sexually active on a regular basis. So I think having that type of discussion as well, to talk about, you know, how can you shake things up, what might that look like in the relationship so that there is some type of mystery or spontaneity or excitement where you don't know what's going to happen when maybe you've been in the same routine with your partner for a few months or a few years. So I think I just wanted to add that piece in. I want to shift gears a little bit and maybe end our conversation in a different way, which is I'm curious to get your thoughts on how you think, believe or see AI impacting the future of intimate relationships between people. I know it's a big question. I'm going to leave it open ended and we'll see where this sort of takes us.

Well, I think AI is already making an impact and has been making an impact on relationships. There is a big, big movement. And historically what we've seen is pornography has driven the technology that gets adopted in other parts of culture. So Blu Ray is a great example. Pornography used Blu Ray. Blu Ray became the default method. And there's other ways that they've, they've pioneered certain things in technology. And so one of the things that's happening now is the virtual reality experience is becoming extremely popular. It's immersive. People put on their headset and, you know, basically get to completely escape their, their physical experience. And I'm not a big, no, no kind of guy. Like I don't really feel that saying things are bad or shaming them is helpful in any way. I think everyone's got to make up their mind on these things about is alcohol, can it exist in my life in a way that is healthy? If I use marijuana, is it because I'm trying to numb my sadness or is it just a once in a while kind of fun experience? And I value these different parts of, you know, being alive. I value these different types of psychoactive experiences. For example. So with AI, you know, I see certain tools and sex toys and things being developed. They're getting a pair with these headsets and basically an individual can have this kind of virtual experience totally immersed. Now they're getting stimulated physically and, and they're with a person they've never met that they don't know having this pseudo kind of sexual experience. And There's a level of kind of dissociation, I think, that is already a problem for people. So it's kind of like another. This is totally off the topic, but it's like advocating that everyone should take ayahuasca or advocating that everyone should take a different kind of medicine. You know, it's not one size fits all. So for some people, they can try things like they can try a cigarette and maybe not have one ever again. But for some people, they can try something and then, you know, they become addicted to it and it, it can sabotage their life or ruin their health or. There's all different ways these things play out. So I think what we're up against here is a lot of people feel hurt and hopeless and wounded in relationships because of things that went on their family system, because of heartbreak and other traumas they've experienced with actual partners, and that they can sometimes see a more convenient approach to get away from the challenge of being in relationship.

And fulfill to some degree some chemical dopamine hit and response that they're seeking through these methods that can be easy and maybe bought for 500 bucks online.

There's a big challenge there, and I don't know exactly how it's all going to play out. We've seen some of the negative effects of pornography on young guys, and some of the statistics is quite alarming about the decrease in frequency of sex, the, the disinterest in being in a partnership, the lack of sexual experience at all. It's kind of in the survey data, and I've seen even you talk about that in some of your Instagram stories. These are all really, really interesting cultural phenomena that I don't think can be explained by any one thing, can't just be chalked up to infinite 247 high def porn. But I think that certainly is maybe part of the challenge.

Well, it's interesting because I think how I talked about pornography before is that having been somebody that really struggled with it for a number of years, was that it was a low risk, low effort, high reward system. Right? Low risk, low effort, high reward. And when I think about sexual acquisition with another person, even if you're in a relationship with them, it's maybe medium risk because there's some rejection. Oftentimes a medium to high effort because you have to put effort into the relationship, but then also high reward. So maybe porn is like medium reward, maybe it's not high reward. But I think the interesting thing about something like AI with relationships, one of the other things you didn't Bring this party. I love what you brought in, which was super fascinating. But one of the things that I found interesting is like, did you ever see the movie her with Joaquin Phoenix?

Yes.

Yeah. So what I found fascinating about that is, like, people are already working on these sort of chatbots. And what I think will be. What I think will be different about AI than porn is that porn is. It's, like, pretty dominantly impacting men and impacting how men do relationships and show up sexually and et cetera, et cetera. I think AI actually has the capacity to more ferociously impact women because imagine a chatbot that replicates the emotional intelligence of a man who understands what you're going through, who asks all the questions that you want to be asked, who understands the depths of your emotional and psychological experience, who's able to sort of speak to you in a way that is romantic and enticing and whimsical and mysterious.

That can be sexual when. When it's needed and. And et cetera. And it's like that all the time. It doesn't have a day where it's angry and aggressive. It doesn't have a day where it's short and avoidant. It doesn't have a day where it's just totally disconnected and doesn't want to talk to you. It's always there for your every waking emotional necessity and need. I think that that is going to really impact relationships because never before, outside of maybe like, romance novels, could women sort of escape into something that.

That met this sort of underlying relational need that they've been yearning for. Men have been like, we've been able to do that for a long time, right? Brothels, sex workers, you know, pornography. We've been able to escape if there's something that's not being met in our relational environment, even if it's emotional, will escape off into this other stuff. But for women, you know, that's predominantly maybe been affairs with other guys or romance novels. But I think that AI is going to change that game. You know, I think that things like OnlyFans and porn are going to be predominantly artificial intelligence. And then I think that there's going to be this huge subset of chatbots that are specifically designed to give boyfriend and girlfriend experiences. And that, to me, is completely uncharted territory. And I don't know how that's going to go. I would be lying if I said there wasn't some deep concern there for people, but I think it just sort of emphasizes it, like, reinforces everything that you and I have been Talking about in terms of the value of having these very real human conversations, because it's going to be easier for you to open up an app that's a chatbot that's, you know, tailored to connect to your everyday emotional whim than it is to engage with your partner and say, I've had a really hard day. And I, you know, I would really like for you to listen to me. Those are going to be two completely different things. And I think the people who can maintain this sort of very human skill of relationship are going to thrive and flourish, and the people who do not prioritize it and take, you know, the, the opt out button of going down the AI path. I don't know what's going to happen there. It's sort of uncharted. But that brings me to. Well, maybe I'll just pause there and see if you have anything to sort of throw in, because I just said a bunch of stuff. I'm curious if there's anything that stands out to you.

Yeah, I mean, ultimately I think that we want someone to bump up, bump up against. You know, I think that ultimately humans want at a deeper level someone to interact with and actually have some of that tension and disagreement. So the tension is actually one of the things that contributes to sexual tension, but just actually attraction that there's a difference between us and there's a tension there and, you know, kind of figuring out that, how that works and the mystery of who your partner is is really intriguing and interesting. There is certainly a part of society that just wants no challenge and wants someone who says yes. And they basically would rather date a robot. So there's no friction or conflict. But that's generally actually about their childhood trauma than it is about having a, the best possible experience of relationship. I think we still want human touch. I think we still want something real. And if it's a robot, even if passes the Turing test, you know, we still want something that is real. And at least I do, you know, I value that. So it'd be interesting to see where the whole thing goes. I, I definitely have some concerns, you know, about AI. I think everybody does. I think there's some cool opportunities as well. And I don't think all hope is lost. And I think that great ideas tend to prevail. That's my belief. And sometimes we get on the wrong track and my, my hope is that we can course correct. So we're gonna see, we're gonna see what happens. I think it's more if you're not a, if you're not at a developed person. If you're not aware and in touch with yourself, you don't know how to process your own feelings. Maybe you're emotionally immature. You don't have a community around you or a family system you can rely on to a degree and stay connected with. Then you're more vulnerable, I think, to some of these things taking hold. We need community. We can't do it alone. You know, we're an interdependent species. So I think that there are some good that this technology will do in terms of pacifying some of the.

Hurts and wounds and needs that certain people maybe are carrying with them. That, you know, there's people with immense, immense challenges that makes it really difficult for them to be connected to others in a relationship. So maybe it will reduce the suffering of those people in some way. Yeah, I don't know where it's going to go, my man, but I share some of your curiosity and concern.

Yeah, it's, it's really a wild time to be alive in, in many ways and. Well, let's, let's start to close things off. I think what I would like to do is, you know, you, you talk a good amount about this notion of conscious relationships and I know you have conscious relationship Council and you have some other offerings and programs that you run. Can you just tell me a little bit about how you would define this notion of the conscious relationship? Because I think that's important for a lot of people to have an aim to work towards and then just where people can find you, where they can learn more about your work and the type of work that you, that you do with people.

I would define conscious relationship in a really simple way, which is that it's connected.

So you are connected to your partner, you're connected to their difference. You maintain who you are. There's more of a consciousness which is really awareness about why we are together, what is this all about, what are we co creating? So there's a vision, there's clear agreements and there's a maturity and a depth to that experience. Responsibility is a part of that. Taking leadership for things in your relationship, taking ownership of what you need to, of what's yours at least, and wanting to become allies in each other's growth and healing. That's really how I would describe conscious relationship. And you're, you're playing a different game. It's going to be hard, it's going to be a challenge. Just like any relationship. It's just that you're putting your energy in a different direction. So instead of putting it into hardcore coping or creating big drama, then you got to manage. You're putting your energy into change, into transformation and growth, and you're still going to come up against some power struggle moments. You're still going to, you know, have experienced things couples do. But my personal experience with this so far, I've been with my partner for four years practicing Imago is that it's deeply healing and I've been able to reclaim parts of myself. I've been able to practice what I preach, been able to be with my partner through some of her difficulty and we both have been able to grow and it has not been easy, but man, it's been a worthwhile experience. I've grown and changed more in the last four years than I have in the last 37, and I'm excited to continue the ride. In terms of some of the programs that you mentioned, I do work with people a couple different ways. Obviously through my digital practice, people come for one on one sessions as an individual or the couple comes in together. I also have an online program called the Romantic Relationship Reset, which is a six week container where couples really learn what they need to in order to break through old patterns and build a brighter future. So we go through communication styles, learning how to dialogue, learning about safety and aliveness and the psychological framework of the phases of relationship, how that impacts couples and ultimately get them to a place where they better understand why they are the way they are. What happened in childhood that started to shape them a little bit such that, you know, they have some of the challenges going on today and develop a vision, get clear on some of these key things that they're craving from their partner, learning to translate those frustrations into positive requests and emotional needs, which we need to do. And that's available online. We can put a link in the show notes to that. And I also work with men in a container because I've been involved with men's work for over eight years now through an organization in Vancouver called the Arc of Brotherhood, formerly Samurai Brotherhood. And Ben Goresky and myself run a program called Conscious Relationship council which is 12 weeks. It's usually about 18 to 20 men in this group. We're running our next one in September and we go through some of the key insights from Imago, some of the key things from men's work, and we pair people up with accountability partners. We got the group chat, the live calls, and that is a really, really great experience we're having. Guys have a new kind of experience and awareness of themselves and having these breakthroughs in their relationships. And it's so cool to get that positive feedback and to, you know, get that kind of, like, reflection back that, okay, it's not just working for me. This is really making a difference for people, and it's such a rewarding and, you know, meaningful experience to be able to facilitate that. I know that in your events and your men's retreats that you're getting that same kind of feedback, I'm sure.

So it's one of my favorite things to do, man. Well, listen, thank you so much for that. And we will have all the links to that in the show notes. And for everyone that's out there, I would encourage you to go check out Nick's work. He's doing some. Some really good stuff. And Ben Goresky has been on the show before a couple times, and I really advocate for him and his work as well, working with addiction quite a bit, which I think is such an important part of life. So, final question that I've been holding off on this entire time. Tell me about the picture right behind your head of the old man and what looks to be, like, the devil. Or is that, like. Tell me about that.

Yeah. So this is a piece of artwork called since the Beginning. And it's a image of God and the devil having cocktails, and both of them just in the middle of this big belly laugh. And I remember the first time I saw this in an art gallery in Vancouver, I was transfixed. I just stood in front of it for 10 or 15 minutes just having this experience of awe because I saw these two archetypal characters on opposite ends of the spectrum are inside the joke. And they. They. There's, you know, just that mystery question that we're all kind of asking about, what's this all about? And is there an afterlife life? And that maybe for these two characters, that there's something that they understand that we don't get that is just absolutely hilarious. And I think that there's a feeling of hope and relief in that and also a big kind of mystery about. I wonder what they're laughing about specifically.

So, yeah, it's. I love that. One of my favorite pieces. And I'm blanking on the artist's name, but it's okay.

We'll. We'll hunt it down. Since the Beginning. All right, brother. Well, thank you so much for joining me. For everyone that's out there tuning into this, don't forget to man it forward, share the episode with somebody that you know will enjoy it. But most certainly. Send this to your partner. Send this to your partner. If you're in a relationship, this is something that the two of you should listen to together and dig into and maybe discuss at some point and set an appointment. As we talked about, as Nick talked about, and, and just talk about what kind came up, you know, what did you learn? What did you take away? What did you love? What were you not sure about? So thank you so much for tuning in. Thank you so much for joining me, Nick. And until next week, this is Connor Beaton signing off.