https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NGx7idPNPA

Foreign.

Dr. Olif. How are you doing today?

Yeah, good, thank you, Connor. Nice to, Nice to have a chat.

Yeah, yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna dive in men's mental health. So, you know, interestingly enough, the team from November had reached out to me. I think we were talking about this before, we just sort of hit record here, but they had reached out to me with this new piece of research, the men's health report for Canada. And there were some very interesting findings in there and I thought it would be worthwhile to chat with you. So maybe just lay out the kind of, the broad spectrum pieces of what your findings revealed and then maybe we'll go deeper into, into each of them.

Yeah, there's a, there's a couple of empirical chapters within this report. It's a, it's a big report, it's kind of glossy, it's got pictures and high level stats. So it's, it doesn't read long, but it is long, you know, in terms of pa. But just to say a couple of the interesting things, you know, this affirmation that men are dying prematurely, you know, so 44% of guys in Canada are dying before age 75 from preventable causes. And I think that's, you know, it might not be necessarily new, but I think empirically it really says something for this current time. We did some work around caregivers, you know, so when a guy's not got great health, it often defaults to the people around him and the costs that are associated for those people. And we also did some research in terms of, you know, how guys do and don't connect with primary health care. And again, you know, oftentimes we've belabored the idea. Blokes don't go in and seek help. And this kind of pushes back on that a little bit. It acknowledges that, but also they talk to some structural elements around that.

Yeah, I mean, you guys dug into some interesting pieces as well because you've, I think one of the things, one of the things that I've talked about on, on my show, but also in podcasts that I've done is the, the impact of fatherless homes and you know, how many men that are at some point homeless or struggle with addiction come from fatherless homes. But you, you dug into accidental and unintentional deaths as the third leading cause of male deaths, which was kind of surprising. And I think the, one of the things that stood out was, I think it was between January and June of 2024, 72% of accidental opioid deaths and 63% of accidental opioid related poisoning hospitalizations involved men. That's a pretty high percentage. It is, that's a really high percentage. Do you have a sense of what maybe culturally or within us as men drives us towards those types of addictive patterns and behaviors or anything that you want to just sort of comment on that?

Yeah, sure. So we often talk about this notion of the, of the three eyes like injury interiority and isolation. And so I think for a lot of guys when they get an injury and it might be something like a relationship breakup, their parents divorcing, you know, or accumulation of issues, they tend to look interiorly, you know, they took, they look for the remedy and the most often go to for a little bit of respite within that is substances. So we talk about guys self medicating a lot and then isolating in the problem and isolating in said remedy which is around the self, self medication. So it's not to at all, you know, suggest that this is intentional. I think for a lot of guys it's impulsive because they get further away from what they're feeling and don't necessarily get to, you know, engage with the core elements of why they're feeling what they're feeling and working through some of those emotions. So I think it's one of the things, I think the other bit, you know, it would be remiss not to mention the social determinants of health. There's many guys who are poorer off in terms of education levels, income, that puts them in positions where they don't have choices. And so you know, that can lend itself to this kind of underground underbelly of, of kind of substance use and, and there's some of the behaviors that go with it. So there's a few things there that are, that are mighty, mighty interesting in terms of males and that, that help to explain perhaps a little bit that disproportionate number that you mentioned.

Yeah, I think one of the big, the big pieces was just premature mortality and how men generally die younger and, and are dying far too young. And I remember, I think it was somebody I had on the show was talking about young male syndrome, you know, this sort of period of time between 16 and I think it was 16 and something like 24 where a lot of male suicide happens. But also this hyper, hyper risk taking happens and there's much more injuries and accidental deaths that happen within this period. I mean I think about my own life and that was definitely the age range where I was the most susceptible to all kinds of bullshit. I bought a thousand cc V twin sports bike at the age of 19 that my mom basically begged me not to buy and doing 320km an hour on the highway and stuff like that. So I'm one of the fortunate ones that managed to escape driving a sports bike ridiculously fast through the streets of Alberta and come out largely unscathed. But what are some of the things that are outside of our own kind of stupidity and hyper, hyper aggressive risk taking we might call it? What are some of the things that are leading to this, this premature mortality within men?

Yeah, I think, I think you, you know, you raised some really good points about young guys. I just, I think a lot of times we forget that you're still forming your identity up until 25, if, you know, according to the psychology texts, you know, so like, so a lot of what you might be doing as a young man might be testing the boundaries or proving your masculinity in some ways, shape or form. And also, you know, back to the old days, we'd often talk about guys feeling invincible, you know, like the, the risk taking is part of their risk reliance almost. You know, I think there's again, there's a, there's a lot of things that you can unpack within that, within that context. I think for a lot of guys are trying to prove themselves. And it's interesting, I think we've got a new generation of young men who perhaps crave the milestones that maybe their forefathers had in terms of, you know, house, you know, partner, family, all of that sort of thing. And all of those have been pushed back by, you know, really by societal and structural pieces. So again, some of that risk taking is maybe in Connell's words would be something around protest masculinity at some level as well. So it's just a, just to say those, those things are really, really interesting. And I think also we tend to forget that guys, you know, tend to have higher levels of exposure to, you know, occupational hazards. You know, we're still overrepresented in constructions and skill skills trades. Even though things are, you know, evening up a little bit, you know, at least inclusive in an inclusive way to bring other folks into, into those areas. But you know, know some of those issues as well because it's, it's interesting that substance use in the skills trades and construction is quite high and that's male dominated. So again, there's reasons for that, you know, around exposures, like the direct exposures, but also the, the nature of that work and the difficulties around and even the pay around that as well. So, you know, just. Just to try and contextualize it a little bit.

Yeah, I mean, I worked construction and gravel pit in northern Alberta after high school. And you know, I started in February when I was 18 years old. And I started in February, late February, opening the gravel pit and I was working the night shift from 6pm to 6am and it was a rude awakening, not just from the elements, but from the men that I was working with. You know, here I was, this young kid out of high school, didn't do very well academically and from an academic standpoint and didn't really have a lot of prospects, wasn't going to university or college and you know, show up to the job site outside of a place called Camrose. I think it was Camrose. But anyway, and you know, it's 6pm to 6am and it's minus 45, minus 50 the first week that I was working and. And you know, here I am outside and I just remember just being brutal. But you know, those couple years working construction, gravel pit, sidewalks, working concrete, stuff like that, I got to see a lot of the men. It's tough, you know, it's a hard. It's a hard life. And a lot of my friends were working on the oil rigs and you know, as a way for them to make really quick money, but it's really hard, physically exhausting and sometimes mentally boring and repetitive experience. And I think to your point, you know, the, the marker, the marker has shifted, but the expectations have somewhat stayed the same. I think a lot of men still feel the pressure of the expectation to buy the house, have the car, be the provider. You know, I think a lot of the data on, on dating, a lot of the research on dating shows that, you know, for the most part, I think the majority of women's expectations of what they're looking for from a man have shifted a little bit, but largely have stayed the same. And so I think, you know, to your point, it's become for a lot of men, exponentially harder to just do what their previous generations had done, you know.

Yeah, and it's the hangover, you know, like those roles, some of those traditional roles. You know, we interviewed guys across the world, 15 countries, and they were 19 to 44, and they buy in, they totally buy into the breadwinner, provider, protector roles. And you know, there's a strength in that. There's a resilience in that too. Things that make you rich can make you poor. Though. So the kind of pressure that goes, or can go with putting yourself in those positions or co constructing those positions with a partner can be, can be really tough on guys of a generation where there might not be, you know, the opportunities that their forefathers had nor the differentials in pay. Like a lot of, a lot of households are equal, equal income these days, you know, so. But we talk to guys and oftentimes they'll still want control of the outgoings from the house, even though it's equal pays coming in. So it's a, it's a real, it's complex and it's, and it's certainly something to work through about what kind of things you're taking on that are traditional versus like these contemporary things. But also it's by negotiation as well. That's the, that's the other bit, you know, like it's co constructed. It's not just. There's no magic formula out there.

What do you mean by co constructed? Just say a little bit more about that for the listeners.

Yeah, just in terms of. I think oftentimes we talk about, you know, masculinity is somehow being in a vacuum and guys decide and you know, pick up the norms that they want and this and that. I think relationships. We've done a lot of work in, in men's intimate partner relationships and also peer relationships. And we know that it's by negotiation. So when I say co constructed, it's like, well, how you show up within that relationship is. It's, there's a co construction around that. And when it's discord, there's, there's, there's distress. And when it's not, when you've got a, a decent even kill going in an agreement and things are working okay, that's completely different story. But it is co constructed. Like it's not just, you know, not just some guy dreaming it up, that, that's walking into something and it just doesn't work that way or it doesn't work that way for long.

Yeah. So there's external pressures, expectations, but also there's a kind of a negotiation around the expectation of how that man should be showing up. Is that what you're talking about specifically or are you talking about finances? Relational pieces where he works?

Yeah, it's, it's both. So like a lot of times we'll talk to guys about. We did this study and it was about gender equity. Right. So guys are really good at gender equality, the 50, 50 stuff. And the trouble comes when they get into the hard counts you know, because nothing's 50, 50, nothing's equal. Right. And so the gender equity piece, about 25% of these hundred odd blokes understood it in a way where it's about fairness and justice. And those things aren't, they're not a cross sectional moment, they're longitudinal. So that's like everyday check in, like who's got the energy to do what by negotiation. So, you know, it's, it's super. It's just interesting that, you know, we talk about gender equity and I think most guys would, would go, absolutely fair, fairness and justice, absolutely, I'm all in. But then there's the work of it and we often default to, oh well, let's, let's do gender equality. Like, let's be equal. And it's like n, it's a bit more complex than that. Or let's default to the breadwinner provider role. And that might be okay by agreement, but there might be times when that doesn't work out, you know, and when, when there's a child born, like might, it might just need to shift. Right. So then it's, it's, it's just, it's interesting because you've got these structures that are, that are saying, hey, be different in the world. And, and the world is changing for good, I would argue in a gendered space. But there's also this kind of, this pullback to traditional ways and this uncertainty about am I losing something? Am I gaining something? Like, is this, how is this playing? You know, so for a lot of guys, they work through that in their relationships. Yeah, Yeah.

I think when I listen to, you know, we have, our YouTube channel has grown so much in the last couple years and there's like175,000 people that follow the channel now and tons of people tune into the podcast and, and you know, on social media and I really try and do my best to, to tune in to all the commentary online, you know, which at times is, you know, is, it's like a little bit of, you gotta brace yourself for it, you know, you kind of gotta get ready. But after, after a decade of this, it's like nothing much really phases me anymore on that front. You know, my, my four year old can still get under my skin pretty well. But, but you know, the social media kind of doesn't rattle me. But it is interesting because I think for a lot of men and, and for women as well, it's like things have become quite complex relationally. And the sense is, you know, there's Kind of this frustration of well, how should things actually be? Because it's, it is quite complicated. And for a lot of men, we, you know, I think a lot of guys are like, I just want to know what should I do in the relationship? Like, give me the formula and if you give me the formula, I'll execute on the formula and then everything will be okay. But it seems like it's kind of an ever moving target and the plane can never really land. And so I think there is this, you know, this shift between kind of a move back to those older, you know, like the trad wives and the trad, you know, husbands and that, that type of stuff. I think that movement has kind of been birthed out of that of, you know, just keep, keep things simple for better or for worse. And so it's interesting. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Yeah, I, I, I hear for sure. You know, it's so interesting because a lot of times like a, that masculine norms are around, you know, routine and purpose. So it lends itself to like the hard count, like the, the 50, 50. It lends itself to tell me what I got to do and I'll do it happily. Just, just, it can't change. I need to, I need to stick with this plan and work through it. And I guess, you know, the, the flexibility around that is probably key. And then I know it sounds so basic, but guys, over and over again, we talked to them about relationship breakups and their biggest thing was the biggest learning was about communication. And I know that sounds so basic, but it's like that was the learning. It was like, I can't assume things. I need to be direct. I need to, I need to actually protect some time for us to sit down and work through what's going on, you know, in the relationship. Not just what we're planning next weekend, but, you know, like, what's, what's actually happening, where are we headed, you know, in certain directions? Where are we, where are we spending? Where are we not? Like what are we, what are our plans? Working through that. And I, and I just sort of, and what's working and what's not, you know, that honesty to, to get into that not always easy and, but that was the major thing from all of the guys that we spoke to in the, in the breakup phase to just say, hey, I wish I'd, I wish I'd been able to communicate a little bit, you know, better within that. So it was a key learning. So I know it sounds basic, but I think it's, it's it's often a blind spot, you know.

Yeah, yeah, you're. You're speaking to the right audience communication. Tell you mentioned. What was the term you used? Protest masculinity. Can you outline that for the listener? I didn't want to skip past that.

Yeah. I've always been a fan of. Of Raymond Connell, who came up with this plurality of masculinities. And so Rain would talk about these different kind of groupings of masculinity, so the dominant ideals. And then there was one particular caveat around this, which was called protest masculinity. So it was like guys who maybe didn't have the masculine capital that we idealize. So it might not be. It might be things around, you know, resources, you know, career, those sorts of things. And for the guys who don't necessarily have it, they might protest that by taking risks, by proving themselves, you know, by pushing up against the structures that norm that. So it's just a. It's just a way of saying, you know, it's another way of saying. Thinking about guys who might be subordinate or marginalized by those dominant masculine ideals. It's another way of just saying, well, their actions can actually be about contesting that whole piece and trying to prove themselves as fitting into some part of those norms. Yeah.

So would this be, like, affiliated with a political ideology or identity, or is it more pressing against the behaviors and the traits and the actions of modern masculinity or what's considered to be modern masculinity?

Yeah, it could definitely be both. But the way we've used it in the context of mental health has definitely. It's been more about these characteristics, these kind of states that men have. Oftentimes we say they've got traits, and I. The shortfall with that is traits are kind of immovable. They're kind of locked. But we think they're states, and states are. They're. By negotiation, they fluctuate depending on where you are and what you're doing. And in terms of health and mental health, you know, oftentimes we know that what we construct around identity and that particular state of crisis or not would determine some of our behaviors. We don't think they're locked. So, yeah, it's just to say that in the context of. In the context of mental health, there are some elements of protest that are about. It's actually about buying into norms that are unhelpful for us.

In the. In the report. Just to come back to this, especially on the. The piece of mortality, the report found that that two in five men living in Canada will die prematurely before the age of 75. And, and that many of those deaths are preventable. And that was, you know, I, I think I, I knew that men died prematurely. I've, I've seen some of the data and I've, you know, I've read some of the research, but that was a much higher percentage than I expected. Yeah, and I'm, I'm hoping that you can kind of flush some, some of that out because I've been on this big, you know, I have a 4 year old and a 10 month old and I've been on this big health kick lately of really getting, you know, a, a serious look at what my health looks like in, in every way, shape or form. Because it was something where Certainly in my 20s, I was, I was that classic risk taking, treating my body like garbage, eating whatever, drinking whatever. And it, it got better when I went, you know, to university just because of the, the career path that I was on, you know, and had to give up smoking cigarettes, which I got from construction, and cut back on the drinking, which, you know, you know, construction also didn't, didn't really, didn't really help. But, but it wasn't something that I really looked at for a long time. And then obviously recently I did. So can you give some insight into what causes or what's contributing to so many men dying prematurely?

Yeah, it's a, it's a complex question and I'll try to answer it, you know, relatively simply. Just to say the most oftentimes told story about men's health is that they live 4.5 years less than women. It's true. I just think it's unhelpful because when you actually get to the five causes, that's where the, that's where the heart of the matter is at. So we sort of intimated like it's cardiovascular disease, it's cancers. And for those things, you can get screening early rather than wait for, you know, some kind of cardinal sign that you might be carrying something that, that's, that's not working for you in terms of. So, you know, those are a couple of things. They're, they're the biggest killers. The unintentional injuries. We've mentioned suicide, a whole world of pain in that dire outcome. And we want to get upstream of that and also lower respiratory. So all of those things are earlier. So there's a couple of things that we need to think about. One is that there is an element of, you know, behaviors like it's about, are we seeking help? Are we actually, have we got some kind of interface with the healthcare system? Have we built a bit of a team around us that can help us with our health, especially around mental health? That's one of the things. Then it's like, well, what about services? Like. Like, how easy is it to get into services? We have fragmented pathways here. A lot of times around mental health, if you don't have a job, you've got to have money to get access mental health care. Like, none of that is necessarily easy. So we have to pay attention to what we say is the structural determinants of health within that context as well. And there's a generic component. And we don't want to deny that, you know, you can only play the cards that you dealt. But we think behaviorally and also from the healthcare provider point of view and systems, we can do a better job. You know, in each one of those areas, we can just be on top of it, you know.

Yeah, I think one of the things just on the mental health side of things, and then we'll come back to physical health, which there are some really interesting findings on that side. But I've had a couple of folks on the show and they've talked about this study out in the UK that looked at men that had taken their lives and found that 90% of them had sought out some form of counseling or therapy. And then of those 90%, 80% of them had been deemed by the therapist or the counselor as low risk or no risk of suicide. And so I think that there's a gap in some of the field around being able to sometimes identify when men are really at that point, because it can look very different. And I think one of the things I've continued to hear and see from people is that when a man takes his life, it's almost always, not always, but it's very often completely a surprise. It's like there was no signs. I was completely shocked. None of us knew or we knew he was struggling a little bit, but he was seeing a therapist. It wasn't really that big of a deal, you know, didn't think it was that big of a deal. And all of a sudden he's gone. And so I think there's a gap in the mental health space, in the therapeutic industry, of being able to identify when a man is truly at that point of, you know, contemplation of something like that. I would love to get your. Your insight and just sort of thoughts on that.

Yeah, there's so much in There, Connor, just to say, you know, let me start with the, the three biggest risk factors for suicidality, you know, substance use, relationship breakdown, being single and depression. So right there, like that, when I talk about injury, interiority and isolation, like we want to get there before the isolation because it's like oftentimes like what you say no clue, you know, no clue that someone's at risk and then they're gone and you're like, gee, what did I miss? Or what didn't I see? Or that there was no clue. It's so interesting in terms of, with guys, suicidal thoughts are quite common, plans are less common and attempts are less common again. So there's a kind of a pathway, like there's a kind of a, a tiered system on that. So sometimes if we could get guys to maybe get upstream, if we could get upstream with them and better identify depression for a start, know that when the 54% of marriages that end, it's, it's actually a huge risk factor for guys. Massive. And, and also substance use. Like we, if we were watching friends who are kind of like a little bit off kilter in terms of their amount of substance use and rather than explaining it away as what young men or men in general do, I think we'd be in a better place of starting to, you know, work with that with as clinicians. Got to ask about that. You've got to, you have to ask about those things. And I, I've been like, I did 20 years in the emergency room. I don't remember ever asking anyone about their relationship. You know, like, and gps, I don't think I've ever been asked as a patient about my relationship. It's, it's so these are blind spots. So I think we need to do a better job because you're right, 60% of men in Canada who suicide have been in professional health care in the 12 months prior to their death. So we're clearly like, we're not engaging them to a point of retaining them to bring them back in. And I, I, my Covid is I know we can't save everybody, but I think we can do a better job. If we've got 60% reaching out for help in some way, shape or form, we should be able to do a better job of retaining them.

Yeah, yeah, I, I agree a th percent and I think like I spoke last year, sorry this year in March at it's called the Psychology networker in Washington D.C. and it's the, like one of the biggest psychology conferences in North America and talked. I led a workshop on how to work with men for therapists and. And psychologists. And one of the things that we. My colleague and I talked about was just this notion of how a lot of the times when therapists feel like the work with a man in session has kind of been stunted, or there's blocks or there's resistance, or there's kind of this natural stagnation that starts to happen. There's a lot of looking at, well, what's. What's he doing? You know, he's not opening up. He's not, you know, the client, the patient is not opening up. And there's kind of this. I heard it framed the other day like this, which is. And I think it's a little extreme, but it's something along the lines of, it's hard to see that men have problems when you view men as the problem. And it really hit me because I think for a lot of men in our current culture, that's the. That's the internal consensus. Right. You talked about interiority. It's like inside of a lot of men, there's this feeling of I'm just a problem to society, to women, to my wife, to my girlfriend, to my employer, you know, and. And I think I'll just say one last piece, and I want to hear your thoughts on all this. But, yeah, I remember one of the guys that I work construction with, who's my mentor when I was working there with the company, went on to start his own company. And later on, when I moved to New York and I was. You know, this is a decade later, basically my stepdad called me and told me that that man had taken his life, that he committed suicide, and he had a wife and three girls. And basically what had happened was he had started this company and got the company up and running, and then, you know, had 40 or 50 employees. And then the company started to struggle financially, and it, you know, kind of put him into his tailspin, and then things just got worse and worse, and he didn't tell people what was going on until basically, you know, the company was bankrupt. And then, you know, he kind of saw that as his only way out. But, you know, I think it's. It's those types of stories where if we have much more robust people and friendships and relationships in our lives where we can actually talk about some of those things, the likelihood of us going down that path is, I think, much, much lower. And so. And he. He was seeing a therapist. But, you know, I think. And again, it's not about the, the effectiveness or not of that therapist. Because sometimes I do think that there's something within us as men that causes us to not want to fully open up and talk about the really dark, heavy that we're dealing with.

Yeah, I agree. Like, concealment with interiority and isolation is massive. And if you think about, you know, that, sure, you're in care and you have a therapist and that might be your once a month or week, whatever release, it's still confidential, it's still on the side. Right. So it might, it might get you a little bit of. I'm glad I could just talk about it, but I know it's not going anywhere. It can still be concealed. It can still be. It can still be isolating. You know, you've just got this confidant. Not just. I mean, I think there's. I think there's value in it. And talk therapy, a lot of guys, like, you know, really, you know, enjoy it. It's important to them, but it's just to say it's not. Not in and of itself the remedy. This comes back to self work. And I think to your point about this notion of concealment, you know, and, and to the, to the testimonial that you shared, it's so interesting. We got all this work that's talking about, you know, men and vulnerabilities. And isn't it great? The guys talk about their vulnerabilities, but most of the media depictions of that are the Hollywood ending in which the guy has been vulnerable, but he's talking about his resilience because he's through it, he's on the other side of it. And it's, you know, so it's like this. It's just that ending where you go, oh, yeah, no, like, it was really tough, but yeah, I got through it. And in the eye of the storm, we're not such good storytellers, you know, to get that narrative out in a way that, that would, I just think, affirm all of us in the struggles that are the everyday.

Yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree. I mean, we, we do. On the podcast, I do live sessions with men. And it started off as just anonymous guests because there was such an influx of men that were reaching out for help. And, you know, there's just a lot of men. It's like, I can't afford to be in any of these programs. And so this was just an avenue to say, I, you know, I'll just sort of volunteer my time and work with men anonymously. And it's, you Know, it's grown to, to something else where it's kind of the part of the staple of the podcast and because I also wanted to give people insight into here's a man in the middle of his. Here's just what it looks like, here's what it sounds like, you know, here's him dealing with I'm stuck or I'm going through the divorce or I don't have access to my kids now and I don't know how to deal with that or know I want to make this big transition in my career and it feels overwhelming and I'm terrified. Right. So I think that's been very helpful for a lot of guys to, to kind of. Oh yeah, I'm there. I'm in that same position. Because you're right, we often do hear about the arc to the other side, but not a lot of I'm just in the middle of the crap.

Right, exactly. Because, you know, and, and that arc to the other side, as you eloquently say, like, I mean, that's just reifying the norms about being resilient, self reliant, you know, competitive, independent. Yeah. And, and for a lot of times, you know, for many of us, you know, the day to day is tougher than that. And, and you know, to acknowledge that, I think is, is really. And to witness that and to hold that, I think is incredibly important. No one's looking necessarily get their problems solved. But, but I think, you know, the, the concealment is, is a huge burden because it comes with shame and it comes with guilt all on its own, you know, let alone what's going on for you. So it's a, it's a, it's an interesting thing if you can get the conversation. And we often say, you know, get the conversation with peers that are deeper, you know, not in terms of looking for remedy, but just in terms of that, those things that, that can just norm it and, and help to have someone who's got your back, I think is really, really key for mental health. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think, I do think that we need a direction to focus on sometimes and to march towards. But, you know, Jung said that confession is the first step in the therapeutic process. You know, that this, this notion of like revealing and pulling things out and actually letting other people know where you're at is the first step. Why do you think that concealment is such a strong thing? Because in the, in the research, in the report, I think you put that 65% of men waited more than six days with symptoms before visiting a doctor, which I've definitely been in that category, 27% of men waited for more than a month. Nine percent of men waited for more than two years. And I don't know what those symptoms were, but I think that's a very common thing that I've heard with a lot of my male friends where they're, they know something's off physically in their body or they know something's off mentally. And there's just this hedging game of like, maybe it'll go away, you know, maybe I'll try this thing over here and it'll go away. Why is concealment and just sort of waiting such a huge part of this?

I think, you know, for some, for some guys, and certainly in the, in the context even now in terms of mental health, it's about, you know, the denial of weakness or in experiencing that problem and not being able to deal with it yourself as weakness. So then I've got to reach out for help and then I'm indebted. I think also for a lot of guys, we don't have a relationship to the healthcare system. You know, we've had, had lives of work and families and, and growing up and feeling good and nothing would take us to the interface other than pain or fractures or dysfunction. Right. So, you know, that's usually the ER that we, we'd be at, not our general practitioner. So that makes sense because it's a masculine space, you know, because they were over represented in every ER across Canada, you know, so like, that's good.

Been there a couple times.

Yeah. The magazines in there where there are none, you know, don't worry about that with the GP part and the funny wallpaper, like it's kind of like, well, you know, so there's these structural pieces again and there's also this reticence and you know, the number of guys that come to us and will say, oh yeah, my partner, you know, said I, I should come in because, you know, I'm getting up and peeing three nights, three times a night and like, ah. And like, oh yeah. So that's what brought me in. It's like, it's almost excusatory, but it's also the affirmation that you can come in. And that sounds old style, like real traditional, but we still hear that all the time. So there's this kind of this reticence, I think, you know, and you've got to have the right language too. When you get into that healthcare provider space where you have to have the Ability to say what's going on for you fairly articulately. A lot of times as clinicians we'll ask you closed ended questions to get you into a spot on a clinical pathway. So you like stuck going yes, no. Yeah, nothing outside that. So they're not easy interactions. Right. So it's not excusatory, but maybe it explains the reticences. Like what we did find in that report as well is if a guy has a crap experience the first time, second time going into healthcare and he's not coming back, like he's generally like, that's where your two year people are. Like, they're like, nah, nah, I'm not doing that again because the experience wasn't good for me and I didn't feel heard or I felt like I was wasting their time, you know, I felt, you know, somehow indebted and foolish, you know, so those sorts of things are not heard. And so we've got some work to do, you know, in that regard for sure.

Yeah. I think in the. What I liked about your report is it's not just sort of pain in the tail in the donkey of men and saying, you know, men just need to do better. You actually talk about building a healthcare system and workforce that delivers and sort of caters to two men in some way. Maybe not caters to, but is more specific to their challenges. Because you talked about how men don't feel seen, heard or understood across the healthcare system. Can you talk a little bit more about that and maybe we can go into solutions after?

Yeah. So one of the policy asks we make in the report is around health literacy and health literacy used to be this in academia. Bit of a dreary silo was about like can you remember the names of your tablets and to take them and what they're for? But we know that health literacy is more about how, you know, you interface with the system, how you understand the system, how you access it, what access you've got. And just to say that within the Canadian context we actually invented health promotion and health promotion as these community based services, many of which are for men. If you think about men's sheds, if you think about the E health space of heads up guys. So these other, this diversification of services. So again it's which takes the emphasis off the traditional literacy you'd need to interface with the, with the hospital or you know, the family physician. So again it's thinking about how do we build those systems in a sustainable way that are outside the traditional hospital and acute care, which is for Problems, not for health promotion. How do we build that in a way that maintains and also brings guys in for where they're at? Because there's a lot of guys in the community that will show up at a, at a men's shed or they will. We get 50,000 people a month access heads up guys. And it's, it's about men's depressive symptoms. I mean like it's pretty, it's impressive. Right. So it's this diversification we need to think about as well as helping our traditional healthcare providers just be a little bit more cued to what they're seeing and interpreting what they're seeing when they're working with guys.

Love that. Yeah, because I think one of the things like I was reading through some of the data in the report and was talking about how, you know, 42% of men report having experienced some sort of gender bias from their health care. 51% reported feeling that they were not actively listened to about their health concerns which can, as you were saying, sort of reduce their, the likelihood that they're going to go back in. And then 67% of men are likely to seek help in the future when needed, when they feel satisfied with the care that they receive. So clearly there's a correlation between okay, I'm going in. And I do think that for some men there is, you know, we've talked about some of that resistance and so I do think it's important to kind of like not nail it but to, to get it, you know, to get that guy, when he comes in, he's saying listen, something's off and, and, and to have that be taken seriously. And so how big of a focus is that for, for you with, with regards to the healthcare system and making sure that those men are really heard and understood when they go in?

Yeah, it's certainly something and it relates to our second policy asks and it's about building those better healthcare systems. So there's a program from Movember, it's called Men in Mind and it's just, it's a really straightforward self guided tour, eight modules about how to better interact with guys. So as they'll come back, it's in the context of men's mental health but it's, you know, much to what the workshop you were talking about probably similar kind of things about how you engage. We know that if guys can establish expectations about what they're there for and going forward and the take home work, that's really key. If they can establish a rapport, you know, and build Some trust. And that might take a few sessions, but you've got to get them back in, you know, to build that and not rush them. Let them give them some room to sort of, to feel in it. So this basic, basic principles about how to work with guys. And so again, it's just trying to, you know, acknowledge that we can do a better job. Because if we're losing guys to follow up, if they're one and done and gone because they were looking for the instant remedy and we haven't been clear about this is going to take some work, let's do the work of it. Let's get through this. Here's a plan. How does it sound? Get some buy in and get some trust that they're heading in the right direction. You know, if we can do that, we can, we can make a difference to their engagement and by extension their outcomes.

You know, what, what would you say to the average guy that's out there who maybe has been resistant towards going to see the therapist because he's feeling depressed or going to have a, have a talk in a program or joining a group or you know, clearly feels like there's some health issue that he's dealing with. But, but he's, he's kind of resistant to go. It's going in because I think there's sort of two things I want to touch on. One is for that guy, because I think sometimes that guy, you know, it's like in AA there's the saying like you can never make an addict go to rehab. You know, they have to make that choice. The first step of, of AA is admitting that you have a problem. Right. And so it's almost like with men, like we almost have to get to that place of yeah, something's off, something's not okay. But I think for a lot of people that are in men's lives, they're kind of asking the question of how do I support my buddy, my brother, who I can see is struggling, you know, mentally or emotionally, or I can see he keeps bringing up this physical thing that he's dealing with an injury, et cetera. How do I talk to him and support him? So I'd love to just piece those apart. For the guy that's dealing with it and then for the people that are, that are around that man.

Sure. Yeah. So for the guys that are dealing with it, I would just. My advice is it's, it is not a one time ask. It's like you have to show up and ask for help and articulate what's going on for you more than once. And what's working for you this season will not be working for you next season. You have to, you have to switch it out. You have to build a team. It's, it's like, you know, if your running game's not working, you better start passing, right? So it's, it's, it's, it's working through that. So is to take the pressure off the first time ask, the second time ask understand the resilience is in accessing the help and building the right help for you. And that's tailored. The other thing I'd say to guys is don't wait for the crisis. We're so, we're so late in our actions that we arrive in a way that we're probably a little bit tilted and tainted in terms of what's being provided or what's on offer. And if you're under stress and you are in a crisis, it's very hard to take the help. You know, it's tougher, your options are less. But if you go in when there's a niggler or there's just something not quite right or a little bit off or wow, I actually want to prevent something, you know, I wanna, I wanna just be better mentally, you know, for performance, for job, for any of those things like just get in above, you know the crisis. That would be perfect, right? Because then it can just be maintained and you can work through it and then you've got all the tools you need. When you do hit crisis, you know, you, there'll always be something but at least you'll be equipped and it won't be in the eye of the storm. You're trying to develop it and to your point, you know, when you're trying to help out guys in your life, you know, I default to Movember's ALEC acronym. You know, the A is for ask open ended questions. They're not easy to ask but if you ask ask close ended questions you get yes no answers from blokes. They're great at yes no answers and you're just locked into having to ask again. But just open any questions, expect them to speak and talk and disclose. You know, the L is for for listen and that's not always easy because a guy's go to would be to solve someone else's problem typically and we learned that in our own intimate partner relationships too that that's probably not going to be. It's probably going to have to listen to a little bit of processing and work with that and The E is for elaborate, where we sort of say, well, you know, what's worked for you in the past, what's, what's, you know, what's been. What's been good for you historically to sort of switch them out of the problem into some sort of space around the remedy, you know. And also I'll drop in third person stuff sometimes and say, I've got a mate who does this and it seems to be working really well for him. I'm not providing advice, I'm just talking about someone else. I'm dropping it into a third person. And then that the C in Alec, which is so important is to check back in. And we do a really poor job of that. If a guy's disclosed stuff to you, you have to be back to him within 24, 48 hours, even if it's a text. Just a. Hey, really appreciated, you know, the chat. Really keen to catch up next month. What are you doing on X, you know, X day and, and to sort of get it back in and that norms the conversation. Not as something that he's worried about having disclosed too much and that would. They sound really basic, but it's a, it's a great way to engage with guys. Guys do talk. I hear them all the time on the, on the, on the bus. You know, they talk all the time. It's just the permission and it's just how we work with them.

Yeah, yeah, I love that. Love that. Yeah, it is. I think sometimes we over complicate it. You know, it's, it's, it is easier than we expect. You know, I want to just shift gears a little bit before we have to wrap things up and talk a little bit about your take on some of the shifting landscape around masculinity and if there's any, anything in the research that can indicate what's sort of happening. Because I think with men, you know, one of the things that we've seen, I've had Richard Reeves on the podcast who wrote a great book called Of Boys and Men. And, you know, I've talked quite a bit about this sort of decline in men that men are checking out from dating and relationships and the work environment in colleges. And, you know, there's kind of this little bit of an exodus that's happening and men are really in decline in a lot of categories. And so I'd love to get your take on what's happening in terms of the shifting landscape within men and masculinity.

Yeah, it's, it's interesting just, just by way of Background is to say, when I started out doing men's health, always used the masculinities framework, you know, so always spoke to the masculines in a theoretical kind of way about how we would work with men better. And it's only been in the last, I reckon, five years that it's become more about a political kind of piece around masculinity that has direct implications for health. But the things I get asked to talk about these days, 10, 15 years ago, people were not contacting me and asking me for my take on the world of masculinity.

Right, right.

So it's interesting. And I. I say it not as I'm not prepared to say stuff. I am. I'm happy to talk about it, but I think, you know, in terms of mental health, maybe some of the destigmatizing has got us into a place where we can have these conversations. And the masculinities piece is we used to never even use the word in interviews with people about health, and now the guys we speak to lead with it. They talk about it like self disposal. So just to say, I think it's great that we're having the conversation so about masculinity and what's changing. I think the Me Too movement forever changed, you know, gender. And I think for a lot of guys, there's been some challenges around what might be lost in that. And we often talk to fellows about the opportunity of that. And I know it's like a. It's a very basic example, but I grew up watching male athletes, like professional athletes. There were no female professional athletes. And I often go, I so enjoy the soccer, the women's soccer, the basketball. I'm having a great time with that. I think it's so interesting. And it's like, we actually missed out. There's a generation of actually having missed that. So I'm very like, we're not losing here. There's some gains here. And I'm not saying it's only about sport. I'm saying more broadly. If we want to do inclusivity and we want to accept diversity, which we do, and we want to talk about equity, those changes are massive for all of us. And there's. There's gains. There's just gains to have. So the masculinities piece, I think there's a lot of guys out there that are really bought in, that actually have bought into that whole idea and. And are in that space, but still trying to work out their own identity within that, because that shifted as well, you know, so from the things they grew up with, you know, or their exposure. So it's really complex terrain and it does have implications for mental health in men. And so because their relationships, because of their substance use, all of it. So I don't know that I have the answer. I, I appreciate folks like Richard Reeves, Zach Seidler who, you know, trundle out all of this piece about what's happening with men. It's, it's really, really key and it's, and it does have implications for health. I just, you know, again, I just want to acknowledge the diversity within the category of men, the plurality. And so when we situate something as crisis based on an N of 1500 or, you know, having a particular pocket of men that we're talking about, I just don't want to do a disservice to, you know, the diversity that is within the category of men. Some guys might not be quite, you might not be, you might be misrepresenting some guys within that. But I think it's interesting to try and think about the patterns. But you never want to lose sight of what's diverse within the category of guys too. And masculinity.

Beauty. Beauty, my friend. Well, thank you so much for joining me today and thank you so much for the research that you and your team have been doing. I mean, there are some really, really important stuff in here and so we're going to have a link to the research. But where can people find more about you and the work that you're doing?

Yeah, we're MensHealthResearch UBC CA. We've been going for 20 some years now. You know, we do the social medias and we, we produce a lot of stuff that we share. We also curate a lot of things that we find interesting in the space of masculinities and men's health. And you can find us live too on 22 July at UBC Robson launching this report in a conversation that includes, you know, five panelists all talking about different aspects of mentoring promises to be a great night out there at UBC Robson.

Awesome, awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining me and for everybody that's out there, we'll have the links in the show notes for you to check out. Don't forget to man it forward. Share this conversation with a guy or a person that you know will enjoy. It might spark a great conversation. And as always, until next week, this is Connor Beaton signing off.

Keen to catch up next month. What are you doing on X, you know, X day and and to sort of get it back in and that norms the conversation, not as something that he's worried about having disclosed too much. And that would. They sound really basic, but it's a. It's a great way to engage with guys. Guys do talk. I hear them all the time on the, on the, on the bus. You know, they talk all the time. It's just the permission and it's just how we work with them.

Yeah, Yeah, I love that. Love that. Yeah, it is. I think sometimes we over complicate it. You know, it's. It's. It is easier than we expect. You know, I want to just shift gears a little bit before we have to wrap things up and talk a little bit about your take on some of the shifting landscape around masculinity and if there's any. Anything in the research that can indicate what's sort of happening. Because I think with men, you know, one of the things that we've seen, I found Richard Reeves on the podcast, who wrote a great book called the Boys of Men. And, you know, I've talked quite a bit about this sort of decline in men that men are checking out from dating and relationships and the work environment in colleges. And, you know, there's kind of this little bit of an exodus that's happening, and men are really in decline in a lot of categories. And so I'd love to get your take on what's happening in terms of the shifting landscape within men and masculinity.

Yeah, it's. It's interesting just. Just by way of background is to say, when I started out doing Men's Health, always used the masculinities framework, you know, so always spoke to the masculinities in a theoretical kind of way about how we would work with men better. And it's only been in the last, I reckon, five years that it's become more about a political kind of piece around masculinity that has direct implications for health. But the things I get asked to talk about these days, 10, 15 years ago, people were not contacting me and asking me for my take on the world of masculinity. So it's interesting, and I say it not as I'm not prepared to say stuff. I am. I'm happy to talk about it, but I think, you know, in terms of mental health, maybe some of the destigmatizing has got us into a place where we can have these conversations and the masculinities pieces. We used to never even use the word in interviews with people about health and now the guys we speak to lead with it, they talk about it like self dispose. So just to say, I think it's great that we're having the conversation so about masculinity and what's changing. I think the MeToo movement forever changed, you know, gender. And I think for a lot of guys, there's been some challenges around what might be lost in that. And we often talk to fellows about the opportunity of that. And I know it's like a, it's a very basic example, but I grew up watching male athletes, like professional athletes. There were no female professional athletes. And I often go, I so enjoy the soccer, the women's soccer, the basketball. I'm having a great time with that. I think it's so interesting. And it's like we actually missed out. There's a generation of actually having missed out. So I'm very like, we're not losing here. There's some gains here. And I'm not saying it's only about sport. I'm saying more broadly, if we want to do inclusivity and we want to accept diversity, which we do, and we want to talk about equity, those changes are massive for all of us. And there's, there's gains, there's just gains to have. So the masculinities piece, I think there's a lot of guys out there that are really bought in, that actually have bought into that whole idea and, and are in that space, but still trying to work out their own identity within that, because that shifted as well, you know, so from the things they grew up with, you know, or their exposures. So it's really complex terrain and it does have implications for mental health in men. And so because their relationships, because of their substance use, all of it. So I don't know that I have the answer. I, I appreciate folks like Richard Reeves, Zach Seidler, who, you know, trundle out all of this piece about what's happening with men. It's, it's really, really key and it's, and it does have implications for health. I just, you know, again, I just want to acknowledge the diversity within the category of men, the plurality. And so when we situate something as crisis based on an N of 1500 or, you know, having a particular pocket of men that we're talking about, I just don't want to do a disservice to, you know, the diversity that is within the category of men. Some guys might not be quite, you might not be, you might be misrepresenting some guys within that. But I think it's interesting to try and think about the patterns, but you never want to lose sight of what's, what's diverse within the category of guys, too. And masculinity.

Beauty. Beauty, my friend. Well, thank you so much for joining me today and thank you so much for the research that, that you and your team have been doing. I mean, there's some really, really important stuff in here. And so we're going to have a, a link to the research. But where can people find more about you and the work that you're doing?

Yeah, we're men's Health Research UBC CA. We've been going for 20 some years now. You know, we do the social medias and we, we produce a lot of stuff that we share. We also curate a lot of things that we find interesting in the space of masculinities and men's health. And you can find us live too.