Relationship Expert: Why Modern Relationships Are Failing - Jillian Turecki

Every couple has their own journey. There's a problem. Are you going to just say, this isn't working, you're not the one. You're disappointing me. You're not changing or you're changing too much. Like, we come in with all these rules instead of checking ourselves and being like, what do I have to learn about what's going on right here? And I think that way too many people focus on what's wrong with their partner and they don't take enough time to self reflect on what they could be doing differently in a relationship.

Foreign.

Miss Jillian Tereki, how you doing?

Good, how are you?

I'm very good. I'm very good. I was on your show. I feel like we're getting acquainted. Yes, we've had some conversations lately. I'm very much looking forward to this conversation and I think my audience is going to love this one because I feel like we have a good, a good jam, a good vibe ahead of us. So before we talk about all things relationship, marriage, dating, what the hell's happening with dating, you know, why we choose the people that we choose? Sometimes we choose the wrong people, you know, and then we can't let go of them. Before we talk about all that, we have to start with the big question, which is tell us a story about a defining moment in your life that made you who you are today.

Oh, boy.

Even though I knew this question was coming.

I. There's so many defining moments.

It's tough. I mean, I would say probably the most impactful moment of recent years. In the last, let's say 10 years of my life, was my mom dying. And I was very close with my mom. I mean, we had, there's the mother, daughter stuff that, that, that happens and you know, we often would butt heads, but we were very close. And.

I don't know if you've ever seen someone die and. But it's, it's a, when you do, especially when it's someone you love, it changes you forever. And I, I was in the room when my stepfather died, who I loved very much. But, you know, it's just not the same as mom. And so, yeah, being in the room.

Surrounded by my two other sisters and we were sleeping. My mom had been in hospice for just a few days and my sisters and I were sleeping in the room with her. You know, like, it's a weird thing. It's like you're not really brushing your teeth, you're not really brushing your hair. You're just like in your clothes that you've been wearing. For days you've been like, you know, eating snacks for like, breakfast, lunch and dinner for three days. It's just a weird time. And we went to sleep and it was around 7 in the morning that I just opened my eyes and I had been, you know, this. I don't know, people are so weird. But I had been doing this sort of research on like, what happens when a person dies. Like when she was dying, I just wanted to know, like, what to expect. And I think it was also like a way to, you know, the human mind is fascinating. We will. Survival is so built into us, right? So. And part of that survival mechanism that kicks in is a little bit of dissociation.

And.

And so I think that what happens is that you start to, you know, I was like, let me. Let me spend my time researching death as opposed to feeling my feelings, which is okay, you know, that's just sort of. That's the survival. You know, you can't feel all your feelings at once. When it comes to something that traumatic, it actually would not be a good thing. And so I woke up at seven in the morning.

And I looked at my mom and I could just. I could just tell based on, you know, my intuition and some of the research, that her breathing had gotten to the point where it was only a matter of minutes before she was gone. And so I woke up my sisters and we said goodbye. And yeah, I mean, I get emotional because it's. It's a very, very intense moment, but it's also.

I don't know, oddly beautiful. But, you know, in that moment, you're just changed forever. And I've had a lot of defining moments in my life, but that's the first one that came to my mind. And so that, that moment, and I was, you know, my husband had just left a few months before that, and I was already sort of starting this. I was already on the trajectory that I am on now. I'd already sort of started.

And it was like, as soon as that happened, it's almost like the rest of my life began the moment she passed away. So that's the story.

What's always interesting about this question, or what has become more interesting for me is I've asked this question because, I mean, I've been doing this podcast for seven years, and I've talked to hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people in so many different walks of life. And more recently, what's been fascinating is that the quantity of people who respond this question.

With a story about death, a story about somebody's passing and it wasn't like that in the beginning. You know, I think.

It'S been interesting to ask this question for so long because I think in some ways it almost gives insight into the, like. I don't know how else to say it, but, like, the cultural.

Trends of the moment, you know, and especially within the therapeutic space and self help and personal development, because you kind of see how people answer, and there's this more real.

Honest, transparent, earnest response that people are having. Like I had Richard Reeves on who wrote of Boys and Men, and he, for the very first time in any interview, he talked about a death in his family. And, you know, after we finished the interviews, I've never told that story. And I've been, you know, I've done hundreds of interviews. And then I interviewed a former male porn star and he talked about the death of his mom. That sent him on a, you know, very different path. And it's just been interesting to hear.

In a. In a culture and a time when so many people. Like I had Stephen Jenkinson on, and he talks about how we live in a death phobic culture. You know, I think that's changing. I think people are less afraid to talk about the real sort of soul carving that happens, you know, psychological chiseling that happens when somebody close to us passes and when we're there, you know, when we're there to witness it. And so maybe, you know, I don't want to get into any of the details, but I do want to linger on it for a moment to understand.

How did being with your mom in the moment, in her final moment, how did that shift you and change you? Like, did it change your thoughts? Did it change the way you interact with people? Did it, you know, cause you to really question what it is that you want to pursue in life? Like what. What changed about Jillian before and after?

Yeah, well. Mm. I think in those moments, and you hear people talk about this all the time, you really get an. You're in that moment. It's like you almost see through the matrix where, like, everything that you've, like, focused on or worried about up until that moment is so incredibly meaningless and literally that the only thing that matters is love. It really is the only thing that matters. And that when in that moment, and I can only say this because, you know, there are people who have very complicated relationships with their parents and who don't like their parents or hate their parents. So I don't. So I think that. That the experience of having their parent dies for someone like that is different. But for me, it was like all the things that sort of like, bugged me about mom. Like, oh, she was kind of controlling and she, you know, she would sometimes like, get really unregulated with her emotions and just like, be a. No, like, whatever. All the things that, like I was like, like, mom, like, I can't stand you. Like that. Even though I loved her.

That all went away. That all really went away. And all that was left was love. And it's very, very eye opening in that moment because it's like when I do.

Now get consumed with the shit that doesn't matter, it's like I almost. There are times where I force myself to meditate on death and on that moment so that I am. So that I wake up again from the trance that is telling me that things that matter, that really don't matter, matter. You know, like, it wakes me up from the trance that those things don't matter, should say. And that.

That'S not real. You know, most of the things that we worry about is.

A total complete waste of energy.

And so that really changed me. And then another thing that changed me was just.

You know, it's like you're kind of ushered in. Even though I was an adult when she passed.

You really feel like an adult once, you know, mom goes and.

That she was such a tremendous source of security and certainty in my life. And her being gone, you know, you feel sort of ungrounded and untethered. But then it forces you into a role to kind of mother yourself in ways that perhaps you just didn't do before. And that's what it did for me.

Yeah, I mean, it's. It's interesting as I hear you talk about that. Yeah. You know, my mom is. I've talked about it on the show a little bit before, but, you know, my mom is terminal and she has stage four cancer. And she's going through the. You know, the sort of on the ropes of going through chemo and all that kind of stuff. And it's. It's been very interesting for me because it was complicated before because she is an addict. She was an addict. And so there was this sort of tumultuous like, you know, don't know what's going to happen, don't know how this is going to play out.

But it's been interesting to kind of take a step back outside of myself, outside of her, outside of my relationship to her, and sort of take stock of how her impending death has changed her, has changed me, and has changed our relationship. And.

You Know, I think maybe I think more about death than most people, to be honest. And I don't think that I've actually talked about that a lot on my show. Although it seems to be thematic now.

The amount of times that I talk about death with people is like getting higher and higher and higher. Like, really, it's really interesting. My audience, I've always wondered, like, what does my audience think about how often death comes up in, in the conversations where it's like, you know, we're going to spend the rest of this conversation talking about relationships. But, but, you know, even, even within relationships, there's. There, you know, we have deaths of our relationship. Right. The way a relationship ends. And this, you know, dynamic that we've had with people for six months or six years, all of a sudden is just gone. And so the routines and the familiarities and the, you know, how we're known, the type of death that we experience.

Sure.

And, you know, so I think, anyway, it's just, it's been interesting because as I've watched my, watched my mom go through this experience and watched how death has really shaped her and changed her and.

Almost like given her something meaningful that she hadn't been able to quite connect to before that, you know, before the, like, really, it's in my face. I know that it's coming. I know that I can't escape it. And I've been trying my best more and more lately to live with it present, you know, as much as I can bear, you know, to just let this knowledge that I might not have much more time. I might have a day, I might have a week, I might have a year, a decade or, or five decades, but it's there and it's coming. And the longer that I get into life, the less, you know, these are sort of like the golden years. Right. Like, I'm healthy, I'm in the best shape of my life, I have a beautiful family, like this wonderful land. My memory is there. You know, I can go for a jog and make it through, even though my knees are a bit of a pain in the ass. You know, I think it's all of that to say.

I do think that within Western culture, we have dramatically under indexed the potency. Everybody's looking to change and transform and elevate and evolve and all the sort of words that get tossed around in spiritual and personal development and self help and therapy. And it's like, yeah, well, you know, nothing like death to bring some of those things knocking at your door and make them so almost like forcefully brings it into our sphere.

Yes.

So I don't know if that resonates with you or if you just want to make a comment on that before we.

Yeah, for sure. What I was going to say is that when you're conf. When we're confronted with our mortality, that will force the most, I mean, avoidant person, if you will, to reflect on, you know, you're forced into self reflection. And I think that just witnessing people go through it is a deeply spiritual time.

It's also a very depressing time. I think that people, most people get very depressed in this culture when, therefore, when they are. When they're faced with their mortality. But I think that it's a cliche, but it just reminds you to live when you're living.

It pressurizes the system. I've always thought that death is this pressurization of our psychological, emotional and spiritual self that can't help but spotlight out in the areas of our life what's really meaningful.

Absolutely.

And then spotlight out the parts of our life where we're just wasting our fucking time. Right. Where it's just like, this shit doesn't matter. This argument doesn't matter. That breakdown doesn't matter. Like that garbage just doesn't fucking matter.

No.

You know, and. And it really is the, the sort of like it, it makes. It's like. It's almost like a cleaning agent, you know, for the mind and the soul and the heart. Right. Where all of a sudden it's just like, oh, things are very clear.

Yes.

You know, and. And the blurriness is sort of gone.

Absolutely. And honestly, what's left behind is love. And I think that, you know, I think that a lot of people also reflect on what they regret. And I think that most people regret things that they haven't done rather than the things that they have done. I think it reminds you that love is really the most important thing.

On that note. And then I'm going to segue into relationships. I think it was Christopher Hitchens who said, choose your regrets. I don't know if you're familiar with him. He was very prominent atheist figure back in like the 90s and early 2000s.

No, I'm surprised that I'm not. What's his name?

Christopher Hitchens.

I will have to pick it up.

For the people that are out there. You know, I feel like our modern time could use the hitch slap right now. But he was a very. Yeah, he was a very interesting intellectual, but one of the things that he said was choose your regrets. Like Live your life in a way where you actually are. Are trying to make decisions where. Because you're always going to regret something, right? There's always going to be some kind of regret. When you're choosing between, you know, people that you want to date or partners or jobs or career opportunities to travel, it's like, you know, the options are sort of endless in many ways. And so you choose the life, the path you want to walk, where you are not only choosing the direction you want to go, but you're choosing the regrets that you're willing to live with. That framework has always stuck with me because I've thought a lot about that and we don't need to go into that. So I want to just switch into relationships. Talk to me a little bit. Just on this note of death.

Most people are going to watch their partner struggle or grieve the loss of somebody. And I'm curious about your take on how we support our partner through the deepest, hardest of times. Through the grief of losing a parent or a friend, through the depression that hits, you know, through the lostness. Like, what does it look like to just be a lighthouse for our partner when. When they're, when they're lost?

Yeah, it's interesting. I had a boyfriend years ago whose father died when we were together. And then, you know, my ex husband was not there for me through the death of my mom. And I think it's not just the death, it's the diagnosis, right? Like as soon as you hear that someone you love has a diagno, a bad diagnosis, right? A cancer diagnosis that will likely kill them.

You start to grieve that very moment. So the, so death actually really begins in that moment. And the way that you support someone is just by being really present with them, really tender with them, really compassionate, and to get over whatever bullshit discomfort you have about talking about hard shit, get over it and just be there and say, if you want to talk, I'm here for you. If you want me to distract you, I'll distract you. But don't make it about you. That's really important. So that's for when your spouse or loved one is going through something traumatic like the death of a loved one. If you're, you know, I have an episode on, like what how to help.

A partner who's depressed. You know, it's difficult because often, and we don't talk about this enough, but often people who are. If you're in a relationship with someone who's depressed, I have to remind that person to take care of themselves. And so that's number one. And also to understand.

To encourage them to try to understand why their partner is depressed. Because people will experience a depression for many different reasons. And sometimes a lot of times it has to do with a person not.

Not having anything to look forward to in life, feeling like they don't have any passion in their lives, purpose in their life, meaning in their life.

So I think that when you can know what's really ailing your partner, you can support them better. So I think, knowing why, I think taking care of yourself is very important. And to go back to what happens when you have, when your spouse or your, your, your partner's parent is dying. It's not like, I'm not suggesting you ignore your life, life must go on, but.

You got to really do your best. If you're uncomfortable talking about it or whatever it's triggering you, like get over it. And that's, you know, probably not the politically correct advice, but you really do have to try to get over it and be there for your partner and just be a steady presence. That is really the gift. That's just really the gift. And you know, and talk about it. Like I said, say, do you want me to distract you? Do you want to not talk about it? Do you just want to hug? And then just, I don't know, it's. I think that what people.

Lose sight of is that in a relationship it really is the little things. It's the little things that matter the most. It's the little things that destroy a relationship and it's the little things that make a relationship. So regardless of what your partner is going through or not, if you see that they're having just even a bad day, just like, I don't know, fixing that, you know, making some tea for them or giving them a random hug. If you are attuned to your partner, if you are.

Attuned to their energy, you will notice when there's an energy shift. And you don't have to always try to get them to talk about their energy shift. You just give them something that every human being wants, which is to be safe and touched and held and to be nurtured. And I think that, you know, communication is not just what we say with our words. There's tons of non verbal communication. And the more that you are attuned to your partner and what they need in a moment when they're down and you just do the little things here and there, that's what matters.

I agree entirely. I agree entirely. And I wanted to say when you said get over it, I feel like more people just need to hear that, you know, like, sometimes just, like, get over yourself. Like, get over your shit. Get over the stuff that, like, just put it to the side for a moment. And this isn't advocating for, you know, neglecting your own needs or anything like that, or if you're a people pleaser.

No.

You know, because I hear it's so funny. Funny how whenever we, like, whenever there's, like, very direct advice or, you know, sort of direct stuff, a lot of times people are like, well, what about.

But what about.

What about says like, oh, yes, we get it.

Yes, there's nuance to everything.

Right? Yes, you are right. Yes, there's. No, I do. I do think that there's just this. There has to be more space for. For things. For things to be relational and for people to operate in a relational way. I was doing an interview yesterday with a gentleman, and we were talking about the red pill. Came up, like, the red pill movement. And, you know, I said one of my big issues with the red pill and some of the guys that are in there is that oftentimes it's not very relational. You know, it's actually not about you being in relationship with somebody. It's about you having some type of control or dominance or superiority to make the relationship function. And that's problematic. You know, that's. That's problematic. And. And anyway, that's a side tangent. Tell me a little bit about how you think in terms of how we, as people choose partners. Like, what goes into that? Because so often. Yeah, I get questions. I'm sure you get the questions from people of like, why did I choose this person? Or I'm in this relationship. And I remember getting a question just the other day, I. A Q and A, and somebody said, my partner and I have been together for six years. Both of us know that this isn't the right relationship, but we can't leave each other. You know, and it's like, okay, well, clearly you chose each other for a reason. So what do you think goes into how we choose partners? Why we choose them? And. And then I think we should talk about, like, why do we actually choose the wrong people?

Yeah.

If there is such a thing.

Well, first, it's so interesting. You said that couple that says, we've been together for six years and we know it's not right, but we can't leave each other. I'd be so curious to know why they think it's not right. Because a lot of people will Say, well, it's not right. Well, maybe it is right. Maybe you just need to. Maybe just don't have the proper help.

To make it better. But anyway, that was just a thought. So we choose people often until we are, like, become very aware from our. From our subconscious, from our unconscious. You know, it's. Sometimes we will choose partners who remind our unconscious of a struggle from childhood, perhaps with a parent. The unconscious recognizes that this person will present the exact same problem to them that they had in childhood. And our subconscious is saying.

Let. This will be an opportunity to work it out. So I do think that there is, you know, there's this theory that the unconscious mind is always looking to sort of resolve issues from our childhood. And we do that in our adult romantic relationships.

And that's when we. That's when we marry our dad or we marry our mom or we partner with our mom or dad. And, you know, sometimes those relationships are absolutely doomed, and sometimes they're not, you know, with the right help. With the right help. And if there's other things that are right about it and you've got two people who are willing to really kind of work through it, you can. You can work through it.

Sometimes, you know, we. We choose partners also based on our conditioning from Hollywood and from literature. You know, the young girl, for example, who has an idea of what her Prince Charming or her Princess Charming looks like, you know, and that's been sort of imprinted in her brain since she was a child. And so she meets someone who is familiar in that way, who. Who has, on the surface, some of the qualities. Maybe it's how they look, maybe it's certain other things that reminds them of the archetype that they had always imagined and fantasized themselves being with. Then, you know, we choose partners based on.

Our. And this is also childhood stuff. It's like our need to fix and to heal. And you'll see, you know, men choose partners based on needing to feel like the hero and that they can choose a partner who has a really big problem and they can rescue them. And women do it too. They fall for people who have a really big problem. So I can be the reason why this person changes. And that's because true emotional intimacy demands that there isn't someone better than the other. But when you get into these dynamics where you're rescuing someone, healing them, therapizing them, being the hero, what being. Being the inspiration for their change, all sort of part of the same iteration, you are essentially better than them. That's. That's what you're saying, it's like, I. I'm the. I am the guru, you are the victim, and I am going to be the reason for. I'm going to bring light into your life. I'm going to awaken you. And that feeds the ego. And it also makes it so that there isn't any true emotional intimacy. Because as long as that dynamic is happening, you're not equal, so to speak, for lack of a better word, from a state of consciousness perspective. And so people have all sorts of patterns.

I was just going to say on that note, I usually have noticed, and this is just a generality, it's not a rule, but that men are often focused in on, I'll fix your problems. And women are often focused in on, I will fix you. Right? So, like, I'll fix your be, I'll fix your behaviors.

Yes.

And that's. That seems to be the intersection where a lot of relationships clash, where a guy's like, oh, you have problems. Let me fix those problems. Right? How you're feeling, stuff with your mom, stuff at work, stuff with your business. And then what women often focus in on is a man's internal landscape, right? Like his behaviors, his choices, you know, how he's feeling, you know how he's feeling, etc. Like, I remember getting. I got a question that same Q and A the other day, and it was a woman. She said, I've been with my husband for a while. I love him. He's an exceptional man with a big heart, but he's resistant to doing the inner work or doing the. Doing the deep work. And I was like, well, if he's an exceptional man with a big heart, what's the problem? Like, you're not telling me what the. You're. You're actually telling me that, that he's a great guy and that.

He'S like, good. Yeah, but he's not doing the deep work. I was like, what's the issue here? What are you actually saying?

I have so much to say about that. But first, don't let me forget. But first, yes, you're absolutely right. Men like to fix the problems. Women like to fix the person character traits. So there's a couple of things the way that I see it, which is I think that men derive a lot of their.

Comfort and happiness knowing because they believe that they are responsible for their partner's happiness. So if there's a problem, they're going to fix it, and then they're going to put a smile back on their partner's face. And then as soon as they say the smile, their nervous system relaxes and they're like, I did good. I don't think that's necessarily a terrible thing in and of itself. In and of itself. But it's when it becomes, well, maybe they don't want their problems to be fixed. Maybe what fixes their problems is a big giant hug. And men like to apply their logic to things and they see the solution. And it's also part of how their brain works, right? The brain works somewhat differently. So, yes, so that's definitely what happens. And they try to just make the broken bird just kind of have their wings and fly again. For women, I think that there's a couple of things that go into play. One is.

I need you to be strong. And if you're not strong, I feel insecure with you. So let me control what's going on for you internally so that you can actually become. Let's just say in this instance, it's the man who I need you to be. So that's one thing.

I've done that. Then there's, you know, call it a nurturing instinct, call it a.

I. Again, this need to heal or to be sort of like the inspiration for the change. That's a very big narrative for women, which is, I need to be chosen. And so let me find the person who is most likely not going to choose me, AKA emotionally unavailable or fucked up in some way, and can't, you know, be whatever. Can't be in a relationship or simply a great person, but just not that into you in that way, doesn't feel that strong connection to you. And she will do anything to be chosen.

And that's old stuff. That's old, old, old stuff. And so to go back to. What was it? The choosing, it's so important to a couple of things. One is to be aware of what your pattern is.

And then to choose different kinds of partners. That's number one. So you might have to start dating people who are not necessarily your type. And if that's very confronting to you, then you might have to look into why you struggle to receive love. What scares you about true emotional intimacy? What scares you about not playing the role that you have always played? Because that's a big source of where a person derives their sense of importance and significance. And so all of a sudden they're in a relationship and it's like, you know, we're. A relationship should be about love and connection and growth. But a lot of people seek out relationships to feel more important and to feel more relevant and to feel more significant. It's like the ego is driving the ship. You have to start choosing better partners based on knowing what your pattern is.

And also recognizing that you choose. This isn't about trying to be chosen by someone you choose. And then you know what? It sucks to be rejected. But sometimes that's just a part of life. And there are going to be people who you're. That your ego is going to convince you that that is the person for you. You want them, you're attracted to them, you've projected a childhood fantasy onto them. They are the one. And so by them liking you, you're all of a sudden validated and then what they're. If they're not liking you, that is like, it feels like it's like killing the ego and we have to just to keep it on, on thee, on brand today we have to get over it. There are going to be people who are not going to feel the same way about you back. But I really believe one thing to be true. Anyone who is not feeling you, who's just not feeling it with you, who's not into you, who's not choosing you, they really truly are not for you. And even though you've convinced yourself that they are the quote unquote 1, that part of you that's convinced you that they are the one is deluded and is all ego because they're just not for you.

Well, it's coming from a place of can you, if you choose me, then my lack of self worth or my insecurity, it'll prove that wrong. But it never does, right? That's the illusion of, well, I mean I call it. Many people I think have called it oneitis, right? That there's like there's one perfect person if I can just find that perfect person. And then when you do find that perfect person, it's always a shit show, you know, because, because all of your insecurities and all the fears and all the lack of self worth and the self doubt just all of a sudden blurgh and kind of gets like puked onto them and into the relationship and. Which is a very visual way of putting it but you know, it kind of comes out and all of a sudden it's like, well, I need you to choose me. You have to be the one. In order to affirm who I am, in order to affirm that I'm worthy and I'm good enough and that I have value and all these other things and it pressurizes the system and then it just falls apart.

Yes.

Right. And so I, you know, I'm with you 100. I've. I, I think that we have this very like modern relationships have been, I call it Disneyfied. Right. Like they've been, there's been this like Disney vacation of modern relationships to such a degree where many people are, have, have this like very subtle form of brainwashing of what a, what a relationship should look like. And then when a real relationship comes along and is actually there, it's very.

You know, it's like missing out on this sort of whimsical, you know, quality that, that's been sold in Disney where you like drop a shoe and somebody picks it up and like all this.

Yes, exactly.

But real relationships are, are gritty sometimes, you know, and they're raw and they're real as fuck and they are going to bring the parts of yourself that you least like to the forefront and the other person.

I think this is why I really liked Carl Jung's work is that in many ways he says something along the lines of a woman will always bring out the parts of a man that he least knows. A woman will always evoke a man's shadow. And in that way he's sort of saying like, relationships are going to bring out your insecurities and your fears.

Yes.

And they'll be projected onto their person and, and that, that they manifest so that we can actually work on them, you know, so that we can actually integrate them and we can be with them and we can become more whole and that relationships are the vehicle that we can do that.

Yes.

But if a, if, if how we're looking at a relationship is that it's going to be the solution to our fears, problems and ins and anxieties, like, man, you're in for a rude awakening.

You're in for a rude awakening. Yes, absolutely.

I've been there too. I've been there too. I've totally been that person that's like, she's the one and she's on this pedestal and oh man, it's like, what a disaster.

It's a disaster. This is why self awareness. Yeah, this is why self awareness is a relationship superpower. Because when you can have the self awareness of like, oh, then I'm now I'm doing this thing right now, or oh, this is bringing up something, something really uncomfortable for me right now. Like, I need to be looking at this. Like, that's where like the quote unquote, doing the work is so valuable so that you can be self reflective in those Moments when you want to be reactive. And that's what's really important. And that's what separates functional people versus dysfunctional people in relationships is really building that level of self awareness. I mean, you know, we'll still get reactive, but to be able to look within is so very important. One thing that I also wanted to mention, just going back to women in particular, this need to be chosen and whatnot. I think it's important to note that part of that is also the societal pressure.

That is placed on women to look a certain way in order to be considered beautiful. And so a lot of women will question their. And men do this too, by the way, but I think it's a little bit heavier on women. But again, it's, it's heavy on men too. But women will place their value in the palms of the hand of someone who they're interested in and they barely even know and then feel so incredibly worthless if they're not chosen. Because they're not just questioning their value, they're questioning their breasts, they're questioning their hips, they're questioning their tummy, they're questioning their nose, they're questioning their skin, they're questioning their hair, they're comparing themselves to whatever the woman on the billboard. And I don't look like that, so there's that too. And so I just wanted to put that out there because, you know, there's a lot of influence out there and there's a lot of conditioning and there's never just one thing. I mean, I used to think, you know, you get married and then all your problems go away. And I tell people your problems get magnified with marriage. Like marriage does not actually give you like real certainty. I mean, I unders like because, you know, a lot of women won't be like, I want a ring, you know, like, I want to get married, I want that commitment. And I get that to a degree. There is this, there is this sort of commitment that goes into it, but, but you know, it's not a guarantee because it's really easy to get a divorce, it's really easy to get separated. And I think that with relationships today, like the back door is open too much. Like it's too easy to escape.

And there's a very childish joke in there somewhere.

Yes, there is, exactly. There is a very childish joke.

Exactly how like my 15, my 15 year old self just came online and was like, oh, I got a good joke there.

That's hilarious. That's hilarious. You know, but people are willing to really put in, I Mean. And look, there's some people who I say, like, get the hell out of this relationship as soon as possible. Right? There's always those cases. But more times than not, it's like, are you like, okay, there's. Every couple has their own journey and so.

There'S a problem. Are you going to just say, this isn't working, you're not the one. You're disappointing me. You're not changing or you're changing too much.

Like we, we come in with all these rules instead of like checking ourselves and being like, what do I have to learn about what's going on right here? And I think that way too many people focus on what's wrong with their partner and they don't take enough time to self reflect on what they could be doing differently in a relationship.

Do you think that marriage is dying within our culture?

It looks like.

Or still relevant.

It looks like it's on its way. I don't, I. Look, there could be a resurgence and there probably likely will be. I mean, that's just sort of the way life goes. But a lot of people are not, see, are doing like this life partnership thing. I know a lot of people having children with their partners without getting married. I think this is more than it's ever been before.

Why do you think that is?

I think because they see that their parents are divorced and, you know, their friend's parents are divorced and the divorce rate is so high and they think, well, what's the point? I mean, I think, you know, taxes could be a good point, but I, you know. You do. I mean, I'm just, you know, sort of a realist that way. But yeah, they think, you know, and I, and I think it's also like a slight rebellion against the system. It's like, why do I have to get married to prove that, that we're together, you know.

Do you see that too?

Yeah, I do. I did this little episode on my podcast called Is Marriage Worth it?

And it was interesting to see.

How many men, because on my YouTube channel specifically, it's like 95% men. Because YouTube is just predominantly men. It's just a much higher, much higher user base of men. And it was interesting to see a lot of the comments on there of guys who are just out. Like they are just. They're checked out. They're checked out of marriage. Like they are not interested. And I think one of the things, because obviously I'm married and I made that decision and in the video I talk about why I decided to get married because it was a big question me for a long time, and for a number of years it was like, you know, maybe I'm not made for monogamy. Maybe I'm not made for marriage. Maybe I'm not interested in that. And I think when I read through the questions, the lot of the men were, if I could distill it down, were basically saying, like, marriage isn't a good deal for men anymore. And I thought that was very fascinating, you know, that a lot of guys are like, this is not a good deal anymore. We're being told that we're not needed, we're not wanted. There's the. The expectations of what a man needs to bring to the table are still the same.

But. But. Or maybe even more so. Divorce courts haven't altered with the fact that, you know, women are 42% of the breadwinners in America. And so I think the last thing is, you know, like 70 to 75% of divorces are initiated by women. And so for a lot of guys, it's like, okay, well, I'm going to make this commitment. I'm going to put realistically my net worth, if I'm worth anything on the table.

And I'm going to enter into this commitment and this agreement not knowing how it's going to go. But the likelihood is that if divorce happens, it's overwhelmingly not going to be my choice. And then I think on women's side, and I'm curious to get your take on why less women are interested in marriage. Because I think historically that's been the. This sort of, you know, there's more of a push, I think, from women historically than there has been for men. But I think maybe it's a little, you could argue against that. I think for women, it's like, well, I have all this freedom now, and I don't need a man to, you know, go and work 9 to 5, and I don't need a man to provide. And I'm doing that. And, you know, and so I think the reasoning for marriage, if you're not religious, if you're not getting married for religion, if you're not getting married for financial security or financial stability.

Then the reasons kind of disappear, you know, for a lot of people where it's like, well, why would I enter into that contract? You know, so what are you seeing?

People say, I mean, I would love to see the data on that. Because still, the women who are in their 20s and 30s who come to me, they want to get married. The vast majority of them are there why, though? Why do they want to get married? Because they want a family.

First and foremost, they want a family and they want that commitment. But that being said, when I look around me and friends and stuff like that, I'm seeing more and more people not doing that. So I think that for sure, it's way more now than it ever was in the past, but there's still people who definitely want to get married, but for the ones who don't.

So, yeah, I mean, look, I think that.

Women becoming financially independent and a force within the. The workforce has changed a lot, has changed. Society has changed marriage. And so whereas in the past, the traditional model would be heteronormatively, and even in some gay relationships is.

I'm gonna stay home and raise the children.

And my partner, my husband, my spouse is going to provide. And obviously that model still exists in many households. But we live in a world, again, where women are making their own money, which is a good thing.

Yeah, it's a good thing.

It's a great thing.

I think one of the interesting conundrums that happens. Oh, here we're going to go. We're going to get into this now. But I think one of the interesting conundrums that happens is that when you ask the average woman what she wants in a man, she still wants a man who either earns the same amount or more than her.

Yes.

That is predominant across the board. And so their dating pool has shrunk exponentially. If you're a woman who's making 250K.

Yes.

And your dating preference is that you're dating a man that's over 6ft tall and is making as much as you, if not more. Like, your dating pool is astronomically small. You know, you're looking at like 0.5% of the population of a sudden.

I know it gets tricky, but.

So I think for a lot of guys, they're like, well, women's standards have.

Not that they've gotten more strict. It's actually in some ways that they've relatively stayed the same. It's held on to this old version of like, well, men still need to be the providers. It's like, but you're also a provider, so how does that function? So I think it's, it's, it's interesting because on. I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think it's amazing that women are, like, out there crushing it, making money. I have zero issues with it at all. Yeah, I think just for a lot of guys, it's challenging. And then I think For a lot of women, it's challenging because what they want, they. What a lot of successful women are looking for. And specifically, I think we're talking about a specific subset of women.

Yes, we are.

What they're looking for is a very finite group of men that they're then dating or all vying for. How do you see that shaping the dating market?

Well, yeah, well, first of all, I could. I see that, you know, women think that they're the only ones who are insecure in the dating market and.

And have the raw end of the stick. And I think that this is an important conversation because men and men think that they're the only ones. So let's just say that everyone feels like they're. They're really screwed and they don't feel like they're good enough. Let's. I'll get to the money and aside. But money aside, like, I really wish that I tell women, like, you don't have to be attractive to be incredibly sexy. So you need to go for other things. You know, the six foot tall and has to look a certain way. You can have, like, he has to make, you know, over $300,000 a year. He's got to be six foot tall. More power to you. Good luck. You're going to be single. Like, good luck. Good luck with that. You could say, I want someone who's financially successful, but, like, and I want him to be, like, take care of himself and be clean and have a nice smile, but, like, his height is sort of irrelevant and like, you know, there's certain criteria, but, like, you know, he could be bald or whatever. You're gonna have a much easier time. You're gonna be a much easier time when you're like, I just want him to have, like, an amazing character, be a great dad and make good money. Okay, he's out there. But like, as soon as you're, like, putting like, all that other stuff. Good luck to you. Good luck to you. Yeah, and so. And that's also. That's also movies. That's, you know, 50 shades of gray and all of that. So.

Are you saying that Jordan Grey isn't a real person? I mean, mortified. How dare you?

But that was a very important book and movie, though, because I say, why?

How come?

Because now we're really going to go on a tangent.

Yeah, we're going in now.

Full disclosure, I didn't read the book, which is crazy, because I'm sure the book was ten times better than the movie. But I did see the movies. It gave You a window into the taboo erotic mind of a woman and her desire to be dominated in the bedroom, but not dominated in life. And really, you know, the erotic and fantasy and all of that, which is so hard for so many people to talk about. So in that way, I think that that was actually very interesting and important for people to, for women in particular to kind of be able to, I don't know, be validated in that in a way, you know, that could be very intimidating for men who sleep with them. But it's still. It was spot on. Where it totally screwed women over is them thinking they could change a man.

If I am just good enough, then what's his name? Jordan Gray. What was his name?

I can't remember. I don't remember.

If it's, I don't know. Wait, Mr. Gray.

Yeah, Mr. Gray somebody gray.

Yeah. Then I can make the completely messed up, emotionally unavailable man who on the surface is very high up in the hierarchy, you know, he's handsome, he's rich, he's going to, you know, totally like, you know, take you on his helicopter and this and that. I can change him and make him love me. And that really screwed over women. That gave a terrible, terrible message to women. So that's my little take on. On fifty Shades of Great. Yes, I do think it's a conundrum. Women are making more money and men, they are expecting men to make as much and even above, it's just a smaller pool. So you have to make some decisions. But that's really what it all boils down to.

So I'm very curious because I want to follow this thread and I don't want to lose it, but how have you seen that alter relational dynamics? Because one of the things that I feel like I've been.

I've talked about on this show a number of times. It's like this shift within our society has happened so rapidly and quickly, but there's been very few conversations. Like, I hear very few people. Like, I don't know if I've ever heard Esther Perel talk about it or Terry Real. Like anybody in this therapeutic space talking about the reality that there's a power dynamic that has shift relationally. Shifted relationally, yes. And so I'm curious to get your take on, you know, when women out earn their male partners, how does that alter the power dynamic or how does that alter the relational dynamic between the man and the woman? Are there certain ways to make that work? Are there certain challenges that emerge? Like, I think we should just have a discussion about this, because I think this is interesting.

So first of all, for the younger generations, the earlier millennials, the gen zers, there's different expectations now. There's going to be a lot more family systems where the women in a heteronormative way construct where the women is going to be out earning the man and, and they are going to be okay with that. The woman's going to be okay with that and the man is going to be okay, that we're going to see more and more of that. How does it shift power dynamics? Well, if the man in that position feels confident enough and feels like he can emotionally support his woman, that he can be a great father, if he feels like he can be like he can fix things around the house, it's all good. But he has to be confident enough in himself to be able to be with a woman who out earns him. And I think that more and more men are going to be forced to get more comfortable with that. And I think that they are. I'm seeing it, I'm seeing it all the time in the younger generations. I really am. People today are more looking for deep connections with the person that they're in a relationship with. They're looking for soul connections. And I think that so as the tide is changing with women out earning men, so is the expectation of what a relationship is, is changing. Whereas where it used to be, these are their gender roles. People are wanting more from their relationships than they have ever their romantic relationships than they have ever wanted before. They want the best friend, they want the lover, they want the this, they want the that all in one person. They want the soulmate. And money is actually, I think, becoming less important or who, like the, the infrastructure of who's earning in the household is becoming less important than. Are you my best friend? Are you communicating? Can I rely on you for absolutely everything? Are we twin flames? See, that's the direction that I see it going in. And that has its own problems. That has its own problems because no one can be absolutely everything for you just can't.

I mean, I think for some people, first off, the economy is so tumultuous and it's so much harder in 2023 to have the house and have the kids on one person's income. It's just like logistically from a financial standpoint, it is exponentially harder. And so I think a lot couples are, have gotten to a place where it's like it doesn't matter who, like who's earning more because we just need to get by and pay for the kids school and send.

Them to piano class and hockey and like that. It's like it doesn't matter because we just need to be able to earn a living and get by. So I think that's a big part of it. I just want to come back to the power component because Oscar Wilde had this great quote. He said, everything in life is about sex except for sex. Sex is about power. And I've always liked that. Maybe that says something about me. We could psychoanalyze that. But I'm curious about when I think for some men, the fear is, okay, I'm dating this beautiful woman, we get engaged, we get married, she earns more than me. Maybe he has the perception that she's more attractive than him or equally attractive to him. It seems like the power differential might.

For that couple feel off. Like, I think that there's a. There is some challenge in the sense that the reality is that we, like when we enter into a relationship with another person, there is a sense of what we're bringing to the table, what they're bringing to the table.

And there is a kind of balance of power in every relationship. And so I'm curious to whether or not you think that the balance of power in relationships between men and women, because we're talking about heterosexual relationships for the most part.

Is going to be skewed or is skewed, or do you think that that's a non sequitur because of some of the things that we've been talking about?

No, it's. Here's the thing. Men are. Men have been taught that their value in a relationship is to provide. So if they are in a relationship where they don't actually have to provide, then where is their value? That's.

But I think that's also coming from women though, right? Like, I think again, like, statistically, the data shows that women want men who.

Absolutely, absolutely.

You know, financial acquisition. So it's a hits. It's not just like men have been taught that, it's that women want that from us.

Yes.

And so it's. It's a bit of a controversial piece, I think, for a lot of guys where it's like, well, you're telling me that you want me to out earn you, but you make a million dollars.

Right, Exactly.

Are you telling me that you want me. I want to out earn you, but I'm an electrician or I drive a garbage truck and I make 100 grand or I make 75 grand. And so, like, I think there is this very Real contrast. And I think that's what I'm pointing to. So, I mean, didn't mean to cut you off.

No. Yeah. Well, the thing is we're still talking about a small percentage of people. And that is true. You know, we're talking about a small percentage of people. And for the women who are making, you know, the 500 to a million dollars and she wants someone who makes a lot of money. I get it. You know, and, and, and those are, it's like they're, they're swimming in a very, very different kind of pool. And that woman likely wants someone who is like, is gonna have their own thing going on, is gonna be. Be powerful in their own right, is not going to, is gonna be able to also like take care of her in some way. Yes, it's difficult. But here's the thing. What I see happening in terms. And then I want to get back to the sex. The sex. This comment that you made, because it's an interesting one.

I think that that's a small percentage. What I see is that what women want is a man who's going to completely have her back and be a strong emotional rock in the relationship where she can rely on him emotionally and she can also rely on him to take care of certain things and to take some things off of her plate. And I think that that's more what I see is going on. She might out earn him.

But he at least is.

You know, there for her. He takes care of her in other ways. Now, are there men who are going to be like, well, you know, I can't, I can't live up to that. I can't live up to the woman who's, you know, making a million dollars a year or $500,000 a year. Okay, well then meet a woman who's not making that. This is just about really prioritizing what's most important to you and to go for people who really work for you, not work for you literally, but who are right for you.

Date in your workplace.

Date in the workplace. Exactly. So I do. So I think that we're talking about a lot of different things here.

But again, that percentage of the women who are making bank and they want, you know, their men to, to make a lot of bank and have all that, they're going to have their own problems and they're going to have to make a decision about what is most important to them. And for, and that is what women are going to have to do. And ha. And I've been telling them they have to do as you become more success successful, as you become more independent, as you become the CEO. CEO of your own company. What's really important to you in a partner because you don't need someone to provide for you. And so, and if you're going to say, well I need a multimillionaire because I'm almost doing that, that's when I would tell her, you need to change your priorities. And I do see it happening. She's now wanting someone who has, who has purpose, who has work, who's into it, but like can give her the love, the attention, the validation, the emotional support, the soul connection. I'm telling you, the more that we are moving away from that power differential of the provider and the woman who wants the provider, what's happening now is that people are moving towards. I want a soulmate connection. And it's interesting and that is why I devote a lot of my content. And we've talked about this, it's like, well, okay, great that you're, you don't, you're not looking for that old construct. But better be careful because what is a soul mate is really someone who's going to inspire in you, who's going to demand of you to step up in a way in your relationship that you have never have before.

And so, you know, I think that we also have to watch all the narratives. A lot of people tell themselves stories, oh, they're never going to want me because they're, you know, the women only want the man in the huge. I, you know, I got this question from this guy, you know, all women just want a man with a yacht and this and that. And I was like, no, they don't. Maybe the women that you are trying to date do, but then you're trying to date the wrong women.

Because that's absolutely not true. Not all women are running around wanting a man with a yacht.

I think it's just the, it's the intersection between the two pieces that we were talking about, which is most men know that one of a woman's top priorities is. And this is Dr. David Buss Work. You know, this is cross cultural and cross religions and cross countries. Right. That like most women are looking for a man that has resource acquisition potential. Right. That he can go out and require resources whether that's now or in the future. Right. Whether that's social status or finances or a job or whatever it is.

Because she wants to be protected.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I, but I do think, I do think that it's a, you know, there's Two pieces in terms of what we were talking about. One is like, yes, there's women that are earning a ton of money and, you know, there's their, their dating desires. But I do think that there's just a growing population. Right. I think, I'm pretty sure the stat is that 42% of American households, women are the primary breadwinner, women are out earning their male counterparts in 42% of.

Households in the United States or where.

In the United States. Yeah, yeah, in the U.S. and so that's a massive population. Population. Right. And it's gone up from the 70s. I think in the 70s it was like 9 to 11%. And now we're at 42% percent. And, you know, with the trends of less men going to College, right. By 2030, we're going to have two women graduating for every one man that, you know, puts them in certain career trajectories. You know, I think, I think it'll probably swing over 50% where in over 50% of American households, women will be out earning men probably within the next decade or so. Just. That's just a guess. But, you know, I do think that it's an interesting conversation. I'm not saying that, you know, there's specific outcomes. I think I've had quite a few men reach out over the years being like, oh, my wife out earns me four times or three times, and how do I still provide? How do I find a place? And it's like, well, you can still lead, you can still provide, you can still protect, you can still do all these things that are core to what you want to contribute to a relationship and maybe not be the primary earner, like that's still possible. I think what is incorrect is like just putting so much emphasis on money, just like putting so much emphasis on beauty. When we just become myopic like that, and our selection preferences go all the way down to like this one fucking area.

Yes.

You know, I think those are likely not the people that are, you know, tuning into this podcast and having these types of conversations so.

Well, I could just tell you what I, what I, what I, what I witness in the thousands of women who I work with. And that is for the women who date men, they just want a man who has financial stability and that they don't care if he makes more money than her. This is the vast majority of them, not all of them. They want a man with financial stability, you know, and that I think is realistic because it's a, I think that's a realistic expectation but here's interesting, another thing that's interesting. I mean, we could. This. Could this topic. We. We could explore this for hours. Because men now are expecting financial stability from a woman. And in the past, it never used to be that. It used to be, you know, I want to provide or I don't have that expectation, but it's going both ways. So I'm seeing a lot of men expecting women to work, to contribute financially and to have financial stability. And more men are wanting women with purpose.

That's what I'm saying, too.

I think there are a lot more men who are wanting women to contribute financially because I do think it's, you know, it's just statistically and financially is so much harder to have the mortgage. You know, I mean, it's. Yeah, we don't need to go into the financial part of it. That's probably a different conversation, but. Because I've been reading a lot of the data on that front. You know, like, for example, in the 1920s, a house was approximately 2.3 times the annual income of an individual, and now it's 9.54 times the average income of an individual. So just purchasing a house is exponentially more harder for the average American to do. And so the cost of living is just much higher. And so I think most people, in order to have a family and have kids, like, it's almost a necessity that both people are working. I want to circle back on the sex and power because it sounds like you had something to toss in there, there. So let's, let's go down this path because I do think I. I've talked about this on the show before. I ran a poll and on my Instagram and found that women, more women want men to be dominant sexually in the bedroom than men want to be dominant sexually in the bedroom. And it was a very interesting sort of discourse that came out. But what do you think is the intersection between power and sex? Is, Is. Is it important? Is it relevant? What's your perspective on what you see women wanting and asking for?

I mean, it's all about power. It's all about. If you. The moment you are the turn on to the other person, you. You're in a position of power.

And power is the biggest aphrodisiac for men and women. So I think that whenever we feel like we are seductive, when we can seduce someone, when we are so attractive and beautiful and sexy in that moment, that the other person, we become the focal point of that person. We. We have the power. So sex is always about power in many different ways. It's not necessarily a bad thing, right? Power in itself is not bad. It's the misuse of power that becomes an issue. And even if a woman prefers to be, let's say, respectfully dominated, you know, con, you know, dominated with consent in the bedroom, she could still have all the power.

Because as long as she feels like she's the turn on, she feels powerful. And that is why you'll see in a lot of relationships where a woman is in a relationship, whether it's even with a man or a woman, where she's in a relationship with someone where she feels pretty much all the time powerless, she's maybe emotionally abused, maybe even physically abused, she's ignored a lot. She's, you know, maybe in love with an addict and, you know, and it's just very toxic and dysfunctional. Usually when she feels most powerful is in the bedroom. And it's in those moments. It's those moments where she's able to see this partner who's usually very rejecting of her, be most vulnerable around her, most loving of her, most enslaved, if we will, by her, by her sexuality and beauty. That's when she feels powerful. But that's not love. But it becomes the thing, the glue that keeps her stuck to this person, even though it's incredibly dysfunctional and toxic in every other way, are those moments. And that is the power of sex and the power dynamics of sex and the influence that it has on a relationship.

It will keep people who shouldn't be together together because of that dynamic.

So where does healthy, what do we want to call it, power or potency show up in a relationship sexually?

It has a lot to do with what's happening when you're not having sex.

So you don't have the manipulation when you're not having sex. And then you're using sex as a way to, I don't know, get back at the person.

Reclaim your power in the relationship. If you feel very, if you feel very powerless in your relationship, but in the bedroom is where you feel very powerful. Even if you're being dominated, you're the turn on. Then you will use.

Sex and sexuality to try to even out the score and even out the power dynamics within the relationship. So it has to do with what's happening not in, not in the bedroom. If you have a relationship that's filled with love and connection and respect and then you go into like this role playing or this fun stuff in the bedroom, it's fine because you're not trying to leverage Something you're not trying to leverage sex to regain your power in the relationship because you feel so powerless in it.

Yeah. I think the respect piece is a huge, huge part of it. Like, I think if you're. When there's. Respect between two people in a relationship, then the exploration of power dynamics, dominance, submission, role plays, you know, fantasies where you have sex, those types of things, it becomes a very different piece. It becomes a very different experience. Right. Because there's. There's something that, you know, I think sex is oftentimes the place where the rest of our psychological. Like where all of our psychological, emotional and relational pieces sort of get to play and explore and get expressed in some capacity. And if we allow it. If that's if.

Or it gets all triggered. Yeah, yeah.

Or it gets all triggered. Right. It all sort of like comes up in and around sex.

Yeah.

But I think that when there's respect between the two people, then exploring those power dynamics in some capacity, whether it's through a role play or, you know, tying, like one person, tying the other person up, et cetera, that becomes a much more aligned expression of love in the relationship.

Yes.

Versus when there isn't respect or, you know, powers being used as a, you know, type of control, then it's not so much an expression of love and connection or creating connection. It's. It's like reinforcing the superiority, inferiority dynamic between the two people.

Yes.

Is that what you agree with?

Yes. Basically, safety and trust are the foundation of a relationship. And without safety and trust, you know, because you're saying respect, I agree. But it's also trust. You have to trust that this. That you can be vulnerable to this person. So these relationships that don't have foundation, the foundation being safety and trust, and respect is thrown in there too. Sex becomes the weapon in many ways.

In that sort of dynamic. It can.

I agree. I mean, this could open up a whole other can of worries, which I think we should probably save for another time.

It's a big topic.

Yeah, it's a very, very big topic. But where can people find your work? I just want to say before we sort of like wrap up that I really enjoyed our conversation. I feel like we traversed a whole bunch of terrain. You know, like, we really did. We really did. And I think. I think we actually went quite deep in some of those areas. You know, especially the conversation around the shifting dynamics between men and women in relationships. When it comes to finances and when it comes to dating and selection preferences, I think it's a very important conversation. So I'm glad that we went down there. Yeah. So thank you for everything. This was very fun. I enjoyed this. I think me too. Tuning in will have enjoyed this. Where can people learn more about you and anything that you want people to know about as they sort of check out you and your work?

Yeah, I mean, basically you need to know the spelling of my first and last name because I got jilliantorecki.com, instagramilliantarecki, on Twitter, on TikTok, on thread. So everywhere on social media, just know my first and last name.

If people want courses, I have a really amazing membership for women called the Conscious Woman. So that's all through my site, jilliantorecki.com and yeah, that's where to find me. Oh, and I forgot my podcast, Jillian.

On Love.

Which I have been on and it was a blast. We had an amazing conversation.

Yeah.

So we'll have links to all that in the show notes. And for everyone that's out there, don't forget to man it forward. This might be something that you want to listen to with a friend, you know, have a conversation about it or listen to with your partner. Partner and have a conversation about it. You know, what you loved, what you agreed with, what you disagreed with. I find sort of chewing the fat on these types of conversations can help us really understand the people in our life better. So don't forget to share the episode and leave a review wherever you are listening to us. And until next week, this is Connor Beaton signing off.