STOP Being Your Kids Therapist: How To Build Resilient Children - with Eli Harwood

Reflective functioning is the term that scientists have come up with to describe a person's ability to look at the why underneath a what. Here's what I mean. When we offer our children that sense of secure attachment, it actually translates into that brainy brain getting thicker. Kids with secure attachment end up with thicker gray matter in their executive functioning part of the brain. As adults, I am going to cultivate the environment you need, the opportunities you need to to grow and learn and flourish.

All right, welcome to the show. How you doing today?

I'm good. How are you?

Very good, Very good. We are going to start with what is reflective functioning? What's reflective functioning? Can you outline that for us and the role that it plays in development?

That's one of my favorite nerdy realities in all of science. So reflective functioning is the term that scientists have come up with to describe a person's ability to look at the why underneath a what? Here's what I mean. So let's say that you are engaging in a relationship dynamic and your child is talking back. They're. They're mad and they're pushing back on something. A parent's reflective functioning is their ability to think about these two things. Why might my child be doing that? And looking at it from a complex lens of care and need, like maybe they haven't had their nap or they haven't had any food, or I haven't done a good job setting this boundary. Sometimes I let them do this, sometimes I don't. Right. So I'm thinking about, why is my child acting in a certain way? And I'm going to reflect on my reaction. So if my child pushes back and I have a really strong fear reaction, I'm going to be able to go, what is it in my past, in my life, in my wiring that's causing me to have such a fear of my child's anger or pushback? Or I might think I'm just really pissed in response. What's that about? Well, I was taught growing up that if a child doesn't do what you tell them right away, they're being defiant and disrespectful. And so that's what's going on in me. And then I can pause and be like, wait a minute, is my two and a half year old really being disrespectful? Do they even have the brain capacity for that? Probably not. Okay. And when we, when we have this capacity where we can reflect and we have a high functioning capacity for reflection, that means that we have pretty good access to part of Our brain that keeps us calm and rational. So when we're in moments, especially in relationships, where things feel emotional or funky, reflective functioning is how well can I stop, pause and think about what's happening for the other person and what's happening for me?

Beauty. When does that function start to develop within kids? When do they start to have the capacity? Because like, my son's three and a half years old, he doesn't necessarily have a lot of capacity to be like, why did I throw my Tonka truck into dad's brand new wall?

So when does that start to develop? And. Yeah, right, when does that start to develop?

So what's really crazy is I was at a research conference last week and I was watching this presenter explain this and show this graph that was so. I mean, I knew this, but seeing the graph was just mind boggling. So you got a thinking brain, we'll call that your brainy brain, your prefrontal cortex, you have a feeling brain, a limbic system. The limbic system is there to help us fight off predators and play dead when something's trying to kill us and react. Right. It's a reactionary brain. And when we are born, we are born with a pretty developed feeling brain and a very underdeveloped thinking brain. Okay? So that experience of getting more and more capacity for thinking is something that happens over time. And, and you know, we have signals of that happening at rapid pace around the age of two to three, because that's when language starts to come online. Kids start to be able to think more cognitively. They can put more cause and effect, stuff like that. But it isn't until our kids are 7 years old that the part of the brain, we call it the bridge that connects the two brains, the prefrontal medial cortex. Medial prefrontal cortex. I can't remember. Someone look it up. Anyway, the part of the bridge part that doesn't come out of line until we're around seven years old. And so this capacity to go, I'm having a feeling, I'm going to stop and think about my feeling and I'm going to think about what the other person is feeling. And I mean, it only begins to develop around 7, but it takes a lot longer for that to fully develop. The part of our brain that handle that, the, the brainy brain, the prefrontal cortex isn't fully developed till we're 25.

So that's a long time.

It takes a long time and it's, it's contextual. So, you know, you might have a kid who's well fed, well slept, isn't currently having hormonal changes, and, you know, goes through an emotional moment and handles it really well. And then you're like, oh, they're capable of that? Well, they were capable in that moment. But take away some sleep, take away some food, add some social pain or pressure, you know, like, add some hormones, now you have the exact same scenario and a kid reacting very differently. And it's not because they're being defiant, because they know better. It's because they're dealing with different internal and maybe even external obstacles than they were in the one time you saw them do it. So you might see even a four year old sometimes be regulated enough to stop and pause in what feels like a tense moment. That doesn't mean that they have this capacity in all moments or all situations.

All right, team, this episode is sponsored by Better Help Now. Therapy isn't just one of those things that you can go into because you're dealing with some challenge that you can't figure out or a problem that you're, you know, trying to solve. It's also something that can help you discover new parts of yourself, new parts of your life or your mission or your purpose. And that's why I really advocate for going to therapy, for seeking a third party, seeking somebody that can give you advice or insight or ask you questions that you'd never really thought about before. And so if you're looking to get some support, then check out betterhelp. You can go to betterhelp.commantalks again, that's betterhelp.commantalks and you can get 10% off your first month. You can try it for free. They have a great service with a ton of people that you can work with. They make it easy, they make it affordable, and it's a great way for you to discover new things about yourself that might not only open your eyes to maybe moving through some problems that you're facing in your life, but help set you on a new path. All right, check it out. Right? Yeah. So the, it's the medial prefrontal cortex you were on. And, and, and it's the part of the brain that plays a key role in lots of cognitive processes like emotional regulation, motivation, social ability, attention, habit formation, working memory, spatial memory, long term memory. Sounds like a pretty important one.

Yes, necessary.

And I think I, I had somebody on the show that had talked about brain development differences between boys and girls and how they, they had found that young girls, the, the main difference was that young girls have A part of the brain that I think was this part of the brain, the medial prefrontal cortex that is more on the part that's more online is about social ability. So like social connections, conversations, what other people are doing. And then for young boys it's about spatial awareness, like how things are, are physically moving through space and time. And it's been very interesting to watch it in my son, like for when he was 2 and 3, he was like obsessed with how the train was rolling on the tracks and he'd get down and like put his head on the ground right in front of the wheels and like watch the wheels. And he was like, what is going on? So yeah, interesting that this part of brain has such a big role. So, okay, considering that we've now established that generally kids under seven are not going to have a large capacity to reflect, to pause and think about what they are doing or why they did something, how does a parent go about supporting a child who doesn't have that capacity? And for them to really learn the world and learn the rules of the house and just the sort of basics, like how can a, a parent approach to that? Because I think the reason why I asked that question is that a lot of parents go to, and I hear this all the time, like, why did you do that? You know, and they're asking a, a two year old, you know, or a four year old and it's like, well they, they genuinely have no idea. Like they don't even understand the question. Yes, so what, what can parents do in order to interact with their kids and support their development, knowing that they don't have this reflective, functioning capacity.

Yes. I love this and I love that we have so much science about this. Like, we actually have like an incredible body of research on the parent child relationship. And that's what attachment research is. It's looking at how the dynamics between a parent and child affect the child's development. And their brain, even how the brain develops is in response to relationships. So we want to be connected. And what that means is we are thinking relationally. So if our kid is, you know, doing something crazy, I'm just thinking about, we bought a water pick. Do you know what a water pick is? They like you like, okay, it's like a, it's like a tooth thing. You put it in your mouth and it like gets food out of your teeth and like different stuff. Yeah, yeah, okay. Because one of my kids got an expander and so we have to like clean out the expander. So we get this water pit. And my 4 year old gets a hold of it. I have twin four year olds and a nine year old, by the way. So one of my four year olds gets a hold of it and she turns it on in the kitchen. And this thing is like propeller insanity. It squirts to the top of my ceiling all the way up. We have like some over. What do you call it when you have light cutouts in your ceiling? Whatever those are. We have those. So it's like up in that, like everywhere I'm getting hit, everyone's getting hit. And. And she can't stop. And I'm going, I'm going, turn it off, turn it off, turn it off. Hit the button, hit the button. And she's just going wild with it, right? And. And a. You know, as a parent, you're like, oh, my gosh, I just spent all my day cleaning and cleaning and cleaning and cleaning again. So, like, I, I have compassion for my own reaction to it, but what, what does she actually need in that moment from me? Well, she needs me to be calm enough that I can interact with her based on what's going on for her. So what was going on for her? I mean, it was really fun. That was fun. She wasn't doing it to be. To be terrible, to make a mess for me. She wasn't thinking about me at all. She was literally just watching this, you know, pick squirt water all over the house in a very exciting way. Right. So how can I respond to her in such a way that she actually learned something? So if I had gone in and been like, Remy Jo Harwood and I grab the thing and I take it out, I say, bad girl. What are you doing? I might feel like I'm teaching her something, but the primary thing I'm teaching her is that I lose my shit when she doesn't do things I like. And that is a relational lesson. If I pause instead and I use that brainy brain that I have access to, sometimes we have to take a deep breath or take a break to go from that downstairs reaction brain to our upstairs processing brain. But if I pause and I go to her, I might have to take it out of her hand. She might not be able to stop. It's just too full of joy. And I take it out of her hand and I'm going to say, like, oh, my gosh, I can tell that you were having a lot of fun. I get why you were having fun. But I am not happy about having to clean the ceiling. I clean all day long and Then I might say, can you see where the water went? And I'm going to have her look up and notice where it went and go, did you notice that it's dripping over there and there? And I'm going to help her process the impact of that action. And then I'm going to cultivate a boundary. This water pick is not for play. It's something we use in the bathroom to clean food out of our teeth. So I'm going to put it back in the bathroom drawer and I'm going to help you use it next time that you need to get some food out of your teeth. That's what it's for. Right? And now she's actually learned something. Will she potentially go back to that drawer and try to play with it again later? Maybe it depends on how much joy that brought. Right. And how much time she has without me knowing where she is in order to get access to the pic. But it's like we're. We're trying to offer our kids a calm but clear parent response. I'm. I have compassion for you. So now let's say I take it away from her and she feels grief. Because sometimes we take things away from our kids like that and they melt down like she's full of grief. Then I'm going to want to respond to her with compassion. You're really sad. You were really loving that. That was so hard. And here's why. When we respond with compassion and we help language that. That helps our kids know what's going on inside of their bodies, which ultimately helps them be more emotionally regulated as adults. The more words we can put to body sensations in ourselves, the more likely we are to react accurately to what we're feeling instead of overreacting or shutting down.

Yeah. I find that the tendency sometimes is to treat kids like little adults, you know, like they have the executive functioning. I mean, I've seen this all. I've seen it in, like, friends and family members and just out in the world, right. At Whole Foods and, you know, at grocery stores and wherever, where parents are treating their kids as if they're fully functioning human beings. But, like, they're not. You know, they. They are not. They don't understand how the world works. They don't understand how things work. They don't understand that that might not. That that might damage the ceiling or it might cause a problem. Or like they. They literally have no reference point or they are forming the reference point for what's. Excuse me, what's good, what's bad, what's you know, what causes damage, what doesn't, what's o them, like, they're learning the parameters. And I think in those moments especially I've noticed myself sometimes when you are tired, stressed out. When I'm tired, stressed out, it's in those moments where I can go back into this place of wanting to treat my son as if he knows the rules of the game of being a human and the world. And I have to remind myself, like, he literally doesn't have a clue. And that's been just that single phrase has been so helpful for me. Person is like, he doesn't have a clue.

Yes.

And so he's basing everything off of my response, which is very, very interesting and I think taxing for parents. So anything you want to add on that front?

Yeah, sometimes parenting's scary, you know, Like, I had a real overreaction this week when my 9 year old came in and told me. He's like, mom, you know, I'm, I have so much energy right now. I, I put the phone charger in my mouth and I got an electric shock. And I like, don't know why in that particular moment I like went to a fear place. I was like, oh my gosh, at nine years old, he does electric device. And like, I kind of went like, a little harsh mom on him. Sort of like, buddy, we don't do that. Because I was going to like, my son's funeral, right? I was like imagining what could happen. And I think that is a part of the parenting matrix is that we, we tend to project things forward, right? Like our kid doesn't get off their video games and we're like, they're never gonna get married or have any kind of positive relationships in their life. They're gonna be like, stuck in a room with the video games. We have to, when we do that, do our reflection, even if it's after the action, and come back. So I came back to him later and I was like, hey, I'm so sorry that we reacted to your cell phone thing. I mean, you needed to know that we don't do that. But, but I got really scared and this is what happened in my brain and next time I'm going to try and be more regulated. And he's like, mom, I really think I'm okay. And I'm like, oh, honey, I know you're okay, you're okay. I just, I wanted to make sure that you didn't like, you know, we have an electric car. Like, I'm like, please don't ever put Your mouth on that. And he's like, I would never do that. I'm like, well that's good. But like anything electrical, not in our mouths. And he's been taught this lesson before, you know, when he was 2 and 3. But I just didn't know. Might think it's funny. I mean, I know I'm in for it. I have, I have a son. This is not the last of the risk oriented behaviors that are going to make me, you know, faint in the hallway.

I'll just wait. I just wait. I was like, the, it's, it's. The funny thing is it's the difference between. It's almost like girls will look at things and think, like, that's nice. What can I do with that? Or how can we gather around that or talk about it? And boys are like, what's the dumbest thing that I could do with that? You know, like, what is the, what's the single stupidest thing that I could do? Like, I remember when I was a boy, I figured out the WD40. This is just an aside that I think people might find funny and all, all the men will be able to have a good kick at. But I, I remember realizing that WD40 wasn't just a lubricant for my bicycle. It was something that I, that, that would kill plants almost instantaneously, would kill bugs almost instantaneously. And you could like, you could almost use it as like spray paint. And so there was a, a week where I took the WD40 in our house and sprayed in all my mom's hanging plants around the house, killed them overnight and wrote my name in script in handwriting on the side of the garage, on the, like the plastic tiling on the side of the garage and stained it. And to this day, what is that 30?

Like, yeah, like 31 years later, my name is still in cursive writing on the side of the garage.

So it's like that's the level of executive functioning that, that kids have. And I think for boys and girls, it's just how it manifests is a little different.

I, it can be. Well, and it's a lot of it is about sensitivity too. Like, I know girls who fit that category and then I know boys who fit the girl category. So some of it is just like how sensory seeking are you? One of my daughters absolutely is going to spray paint her name on my garage. Like, no doubt.

Awesome.

That's like who she is. Like, she just wants to own the mud and dirt and grow like her favorite thing to do is just hiss at people and be like a method actor playing a cheetah all day long. But, you know, whereas her twin is the complete opposite. I mean, even as a little 21 year old, it was like the way they process the world is different. So it's like. And I think boys do tend to process the world in more sensory activity and, and that, like, you know what, you're looking under the train. It's like, oh, what, what's the mechanics of all of this? And then wanting to experiment with that, where girls do tend to be more focused on the mechanics of relationships. How does what I do make you feel? You know, we could have a long discussion about why that is. Because I think there's some nature and some culture socializing. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Playing into all of that. But absolutely, I mean, I have, I. I've got two kids who are going to do this to me. So I've got to keep working on my capacity to be available and reliable. You know, my son needs me in that moment to go, okay, so sounds like you feel real jazzed about your choice to electrocute yourself. But I'm less jazzed about it. Let's talk about it. Let's do some thinking about it, let's do some reflecting about it. Let's even Google, you know, what can happen if I stick a phone charger, find out how dangerous it is or isn't. You know, I haven't even done that, so maybe it's not that dangerous, but like, it seems dangerous. Right? But we can have those conversations and I can be a reliable resource for, you know, education and guidance. But also the other thing our kids really need from us in order to trust our guidance is to be a reliable place where their tender needs can be met. You know, so when my son got off the bus in kindergarten and he's sobbing and I mean like full born sob, he needed my help to process that he was feeling lonely on the bus. His friend Bill, who is named Bill, which always just cracks me up. But anyway, his friend Bill had gone to hockey camp that week after school and wasn't on the bus rides home. And he was feeling lonely. And like, it's my honor to be a parent and my husband's honor to be a parent in those moments to my kids to say like, I'm so sorry you're in pain. I'm here. I got you, kid. Come here. I mean, those phrases. Every dad in the world needs to know these phrases because dads get robbed so often of the closeness that they deserve with their kids. So I've got you. Come here and not come here, like, come here, right? Come here, come here. I can hold you. We can get through this together, right? That, like, can you imagine? I mean, how many of you are listening to me thinking, I cannot literally imagine my dad saying that to me. How sad. How sad. Your parent, whether they are your dad or your mom or they don't identify any either way. Like those, that's. Those are the arms that you belong in. Right. And where you should be learning that you matter and your pain matters and you're not alone in those things.

Yes, yes. Well, I think we're talking about what my next question is, which is, you know, you've written this great book about raising securely attached kids, and I think, you know, attachment is all the rave these days. It is the, it is the thing. And I've been talking about it quite a bit over the last year or so. Tell the, tell us a little bit about what. How do you define a certainly securely attached kid? And I would love to explore how can parents, like, what do parents need to do? You know, how can you identify that your child is securely attached? What are the pillars of raising a securely attached kid? So let's actually get into this in a more direct way.

Okay? So in. I'm going to try and make this as easy to understand as possible and for everyone to know. This is an incredibly complex body of research and data. So, you know, if you really get me going, you could get very lost in the woods. But for, for what we actually need to know as parents, it's this. When we cultivate an experience in relationship to us with our children, where they feel seen, they feel heard, they feel nurtured and understood, and they can sense that we are solid. So we need to be both soft and sturdy. Okay? They need to sense that if they push on our boundaries, we don't just blow over, but they also need to sense that we are a soft place where they can land when the world or a moment has rendered them over tender. Right? That we are that safe haven for them. And that a secure dynamic is one where a child senses that their parent can handle their emotional needs. And so they can sense that if I go to you and I say I'm not okay, that the parent won't say, you're fine, you're fine, let's just, let's do something else. Or, or that the parent won't on the flip side, overreact. Say what? Oh my gosh, should we go to the hospital? I don't know what this means, Right? Like an intrude with anxiety. They need to know that a parent can go, you're not, you're not okay, tell me more. I am sturdy, I am soft. I got you. Because when we offer our children that sense of secure attachment, it actually translates into that brainy brain getting thicker. So kids with secure attachment end up with thicker gray matter in their executive functioning part of the brain as adults. It also helps to prevent the reactionary brain from growing bigger. So that amygdala, when kids grow up in homes where they feel like overwhelmed and there was really tough parents, parents are being extra tough. You know, you don't do what I say, I'm gonna smack you upside the head. Or you don't do what I say and I'm gonna ignore you for a couple days. That kind of toughness. There's a quite a bit of neuroscience data that says that as adults, their amygdala will be two times the size of as their peers who had secure experiences. Which means that as adults, they're actually going to have a harder time controlling their emotions and they're, they're going to be left to either be very reactive or very numb. Neither of which promotes health and well being and thriving in life. Right? So these are your four simple tips. Everybody get your pencil. For all the things that we talk about today, this is where you're going to like write it down and you're gonna be like, I can do this. Number one, light up. When your kids come into the room, you be a place where they know they are wanted. I like to think of this as how our dogs respond to us when we come home. Like, no one's ever energy, yeah, does my dog want me here? No one's ever wondered that, right? Because they just unabashedly express delight, right? And your kids are all different. So, you know, your very extroverted kid will probably be fine with you wagging and drooling and jumping all over them. Your more introverted, sensitive kid might need you to tone it down a little bit, but you can still express I'm so glad you're here, by lighting up on your in your presence so they can feel it. So you're going to light up. Because when our kids feel they are worthy and delightful, they go out into the world with a whole lot more courage. And the second thing we're going to do is we're going to listen up. We are going to take the time to be a place where our children feel heard and some of that listening when they're young is going to be like, and then the roly poly went to the side with the ant. And then the ant ate the grass. And you're like, land the plane. What are we talking about right now? But you're going to still listen. You're going to get curious. You're going to be like, wait, wait, wait, wait. Back up, back up. The roly poly ran into the ant. Do they know each other? What. What does this even mean? Wait. And then where did they go? And wait, was this front yard or backyard? We're going to engage our kids in such a way that we become places they want to open up. We have to listen up if we want them to open up. And that has to be a ritual that they can rely on and trust. Okay, number three, we're going to show up. Showing up means we are there for them in their tender moments and their distress. So when they're in pain, we are going to mobilize. We're going to move towards them. We're going to be there not in an anxious way, but in a responsive way. And we're going to show up for their triumphant stuff. We're going to be there to teach them to ride a bike. We're going to be there to watch their school play. We're going to be there when they finally pass that dumb math test that they have to take with the different equations and stuff. I hate that stuff, right? But we're going to be there. We're going to show up if they can sense we are with them in both their tribulations and their triumphs. Okay? And then we're going to make up when we mess up those first three, because we're all going to mess up those first three. Statistically speaking, a secure relationship is in sync and connected 30 to 50% of the time. So we're going to be doing more failure than success. But we're going to do enough success that our kids trust it. And so we are going to be the leaders of repair when we muck it up. You know, when we forget to light up because we're on our phone and we're dealing with some work call and our kids, like, trying to show us that they finally got the grade. You know, we're going to come back later that night and go, I'm so sorry you were so excited to see me and tell me about this. And I was so stressed out about that work call that I didn't even really look at you or listen to you. Can I Have a do over. I flubbed. Right. And we're gonna, you know, if we miss, if we get overreactive when our kid is crying, you know, I, I, I've had moments where like my son was melting down on like a playdate. Maybe he's like 6, 7 years old. And I got like, kind of uncomfortable because I'm like, oh, crap, this other kid's gonna think my kid's a weenie. Right. Like, there is boy culture. I don't, I don't want my kid to like, have to deal with like, feeling like he's lesser than, you know, and so maybe I wasn't as compassionate about his emotions because I was sort of like, pull it together, your friends here. And I can go back later to him and say, you really needed my help in that moment. You needed me to be more soft. You know, my, and my kids, you know, they've experienced me over there. So, like, yeah, I do. You know, they're very empowered. Like, you are really mean. I'm like, I know. I was really, I really didn't give you what you needed. Right. But. And then I'm also going to work on doing that the next time. So we're going to be the leaders of repair. We're going to show our kids that it is dignified, it is courageous, and it is effective to take responsibility for our impact on others and to repair that impact. Because then we're going to send kids out into the world who feel they are worthy of know how to do it. So let's let, let me repeat and summarize. We're going to light up, we're going to listen up, we're going to show up and we're going to make up. If you're doing those four things as consistently as you can with your kids, they're going to be fine and you're going to be fine.

Yeah, I think I remember reading the literature around the, the studies that were showing the secure attachments, secure relationships were connected. I can't remember exactly what the wording was, but yeah, that it was like 30, 35 to 50 of the time. I was like, that's it. I was like, what? And, and then, you know, I thought about it more and I was like, yeah, I guess that's true. And so, you know, it just, I think it also really sink, let something sink in around because I've always said that this was a old mentor of mine. He said, you know, I would live, I would die for my kids, but I won't live with, live for Them as in, like, I'm gonna find my own purpose and mission in life. And.

And I'm. I'm gonna my kids up. Like, I'm gonna be the best parent that I absolutely can, but I'm not gonna be perfect. And there's gonna be things that they have beef with me about, and I always love that, because I think my predilection was because of my childhood. I was really worried about becoming a parent because I had really high expectations, you know, really, really high expectations of myself. Needing to be perfect, needing to, like, get right all the time as a parent, never lose my cool, always be this, like, super composed, you know, have the answer, figure it out. And so I think I had this bit of concern that I would enter into parenthood, and that level of perfectionism would definitely get in the way. And so the permission to get things wrong once in a while is important. And I think what. One of the things that I've tried to embody for my son is.

The makeup part that you talked about. Role modeling and modeling, reconciliation and repair after anything's gone wrong. And actually owning my part. It's like, hey, listen, bud, I know I ignored you, or I know I, you know, dad raised his voice and I'm sorry. And it was so cool because we had this moment where. And this was. He's three and a half now. This is probably, like, right after he turned three where he threw a big tantrum and my wife took him upstairs. And I had. I had set some, like, a boundary with him. And it was like, we're not going to do that, because he was throwing stuff and kicking and doing the whole, you know, screaming, like, the whole tantrum. And my wife took him upstairs to go to bed and to have a bath. And he came downstairs of his own accord and came down the stairs, comes all the way down, stands at the edge of the stairs, is Dada. And I turned around, I was like, yes. He's like, I'm sorry. Oh, buddy. It's like, come on. As a kid over here, you know, like, broke my heart. I was like, it's amazing. You know, it's like the modeling is working. And it. It was like a big sigh of relief, you know?

It wasn't just the modeling of saying sorry, though. It was also that he has a sense that what matters most to you is that relationship with him. Right? He wasn't coming down with his face. He wasn't coming down looking at the ground of you, worried about what you were gonna. You know, it wasn't. It Wasn't. You're right. You're the boss. I shouldn't have messed up. It was, I wanna reconnect with you. It was data, like, he's reaching you. I often describe secure attachment as the capacity to reach for others when we need them and then effectively receive the connection and care they offer. And we could get into the nitty gritty. It's my book. So if anyone wants to know all of the nuances of the different insecure attachment styles, you can learn about that. But that's what, that's what our goal is, that's what we want to teach our children, is when you reach for me, I show up for you and I help you regulate. And then I teach you whatever lesson you need to learn. If there is one, half the time our kids have already learned the lesson because of the natural consequences happening. But. But if you need to, I'll teach you. And then the child, over time, internalizes this deep sense of, I have support. And man, is there anything in mental health that has a bigger impact than someone feeling that they have actual human support in their lives? And the answer is no. There's nothing that is the most impactful element in the lives of human mental health is our social sense of support.

Yeah, I appreciate what you're saying. I like the way that you frame it as well, because I think that sometimes I see some of the parenting advice online and it's, you know, it's like therapy sessions for three year olds. Right? It's like, you know, you see, like a parent says, like, I know you're having such big feelings. It's like, no, the kid doesn't understand what's happening inside of their body.

Actually, the part of their brain that listens to language isn't even online. So, like, you don't need to say all that.

Exactly.

But you do need to bring a presence that says that. So. So can you embody that? Can your presence say, I'm the grown up, I can handle this, I can, I can simultaneously care about what you're feeling and also be okay in my own body so that we can get through whatever it is we need to get through. I mean, I think about, like, putting kids in car seats, you know, when they're younger. Like, there were many times in my parenting journey where I needed to get to work or to do something and there wasn' the time for my child to, you know, process all the norepinephrine that got sent through their nervous system. It's like they're activated and they don't want to go and we go. And so, you know, I had like a football hold that I could do. I, I could do it with two twins. I, I got pretty good at this. It's like you pick them both up. But the meanwhile, as I'm taking them to the car, I'm, I'm working on staying calm and mature. This is hard. You don't want to go, we gotta go. I know. And I'm figuring out how can I get them into that vehicle. There was a point when they were like between three and a half and four or they were strong enough but the brain wasn't quite developed. If we're talking where I was like, how am I gonna force their little bodies into the seatbelt? Right. But for the most part.

You don't have to do that. For the most part you can just stay calm, ride the wave. I like to think of emotions as waves, whether it's in my own body or in the body of my children. Of like, these are neurochemical reactions that create sensations in my body. They come up and they always go down. Like no one like started feeling a feeling for the rest of their lives. That's not how our nervous system works. So we naturally let the wave come up and go down when our kids are activated and in a big feeling state and just continue to be the shore. You're the shore, I'm here. You can crash against me. I'm going to be here until you settle and then we can, you know, interact in a much calmer way. But I am with you. I'm not trying to make you stop feeling something. I'm not trying to fix it or rescue you. I'm just showing you you're not alone as you surf this wave. And I'm not going to let you drown. And I'm also not going to drown in your wave.

Yeah, I think that that last piece is the important one. That last piece is the important one because I see a lot of parents getting lit up by their.

By their, by their kids emotional dysregulation, you know, or like the kid gets dysregulated and the parents nervous system is like, yes. You know, and they're, they're dysregulated, they're reactive, they're embarrassed, they're like, don't do this in the grocery store. Oh my God, how could you?

Yes.

And so I think it's. I remember, I remember having a confrontation actually with a woman in. Oh my goodness, a grocery store. This is years ago where her kid had grabbed a yogurt off of the shelf and thrown the yogurt on the ground. And it, and the kid was like two or three years old. Throw the yogurt on the ground, it exploded. There's yogurt everywhere. And she slapped the kid. She slapped the kid across the face and was yelling at it. And I went and like intervened. I was like, hey, like, he just doesn't know what he's doing. I was like, I don't need to, like, I'm not trying to tell you how to parent. I was like, it's all good. You seem stressed out. Like, I'll help you clean this up. And I think it's. And you know, that's a pretty extreme example. But I, I think it's so easy, I think for parents to immediately get jarred by their kids emotions. Just dysregulation.

Well, and I'll tell you, for me, you know, when I had one kid, I was like, I'm pretty good at this. And then I ended up having three. Yeah. And you know, I, I think of like in the movies, I was watching Percy Jackson with my son, you know, and it's like, you know that you see the sword come out and it's the one on one battle, right? And it's like, okay, maybe this was gonna work out. And then like the, the other, you know, battlers come out from the trees and they realize it's like one on eight or whatever. And having three kids is a lot like one on eight. And so I, it is much harder for me to stay grounded and calm when all three of my kids are losing their at the the same time than it is when it's one on one regulation. And you know, my go to is not to slap my kids. It's actually kind of like this like really martyry thing. It's like.

You guys, I don't know, I mean it's. But it's not mature. Like, whatever it is. And it certainly has never worked. Like, I've never gone.

And my kids have gone, oh, I'm so sorry, mom. Let's all, let's think logically, right? So. But when I, I just. The key is to catch yourself, right? It's like when I'm in that moment, I'm like, okay, what do I need to do? Sometimes I need to walk away. Sometimes I need to go, can you please remind me that it's all okay? And they're gonna fall asleep eventually and no one's gonna die as a result of this extra half hour of bedtime shenanigans. And whatever. Or, you know, it might be that I, like, just lock myself in the bathroom for five minutes, and I literally just take deep breaths and I experience my body without anyone touching it. But, you know.

I want us to all acknowledge that we are all both of these parents, right? We are all the parent who loses it, and we are all the parent who can be available and supportive. And the key is just making sure that the pattern and the balance of that pattern leans in the direction of the calm, compassionate, grounded, connected parent, and that when we are the other parent, that we can, I mean, be compassionate with ourselves. And, you know, I called myself Captain Overreacting last week with my kids. I was like, I am Captain Overreacting right now. And, like, just by making it kind of funny, it helped me be a little bit less that way. And all my kids chimed in immediately, like, yeah, you are like, okay, all right. What do I need to do to regulate my nervous system? And, you know, we. We sometimes howl as a group. That's been one of my favorite parenting hacks, like, when we're all in that energy and no one can get their needs met. So everyone's escalating, and I'll be like, we need to howl. We just, like, get all of our anger out howling together. And then I'm like, okay, one at a time. You were. Everyone's gonna get what they need, but one at a time now. Roaring's great. Exactly. Like, get that primal stuff out. Move on. Do the best you can. That's your. That's your job as a parent. Do the best you can to stay as connected as you can, to be as mature as you can, and to model what it is you want your kids to learn and. And start a therapy fund.

Just have it ready. You know, they can go to therapy or college. It's their choice. But here it is, right?

Yeah. I mean, I think one of the interesting things is I found that so long as I am grounded and regulated, everything is manageable.

Yes.

And I started doing. Instead of, like, putting my son into timeouts, I started saying, like, when I would get this regular, daddy needs a timeout.

Love it.

Right? Daddy's. Daddy's going on a timeout. And I just opened the door. Walk outside on the front porch, take, you know, put my feet in the grass, take a couple breaths. And I remember the first time I did it, my son was like, you know, kind of, like, looked at me like, what is dad doing? And then the same thing, right? 30. 30 seconds. 60 seconds goes by, I'm outside Feeding the grass, taking a couple breaths, looking up at this guy because we have lots of land here in nature. And he comes outside and he's like, dada. You okay? I was like, yeah. He's like, you angry? And I was like. I was like, yeah, I was angry. Yeah. But I'm like, I'm. I'm getting better. He's like, you happy now? And I was like, yeah, I'm getting happier now.

Oh, my God.

So I just.

I'm so proud of you. This is so beautiful and so important. And like, what an incredible shift would happen in the world if the average dude knew that they should honor their anger by taking a break. That's an honoring of our anger. Take a break. Take some space. Take a break and regulate. And I mean, that's what I want my kids to learn. I'm always like, if you're angry, it either means you need some help or you need a break. And then I think of all of my clients who've had the hardest time getting help with anger management because it feels shameful. Right. Instead of natural. Like, we get angry because we're desperate. Anger is about violation and desperateness. So I have hit a thrust, especially with kids. Yes. So, yes. So we want to. We want to teach that, you know, you're not bad for your anger. Your anger is not dangerous. It's just guiding you towards a need.

There's two big pieces that I want to talk about. One is discipline or consequences. And then I want to talk about fostering and developing self esteem in kids. Because I think in today's culture, man, they're just. They're getting it every which way from Sunday. Like, you know, online social media pressures at school, you know, they're inundated by, by mainstream media. And I mean, it's just. It's a little wild.

It is.

So let's start with. Let's just start with the discipline and the consequences. How does that fit in? Like, if your kid does something knowingly that crosses the line and there needs to be some type of consequence, what does that look like in. In your body, in your playbook? Because I think a lot of parents are like, oh, I can't discipline my kids. I can't have consequences because that's going to rupture attachment. And then they're going to, you know, I'm going to screw them all up. And so.

Which isn't sturdy enough. Like, kids can feel that. That's not sturdy. You know, I talked about being soft and sturdy, and being sturdy means we have consistent Boundaries. I like to say the difference between boundaries and punishment. And so when I say boundaries, consequences could be used as the same kind of idea. But the difference between those two things, boundaries and consequences and punishment is really intention from us. And we can feel this in other people. We're relational creatures. So let's say. Let's say your kid has taken their tablet. They're not supposed. They're done with tablet time for the day, but you've caught them, they're under their pillow in their bedroom, and they're playing on their tablet despite the fact that the screen time had ended up right.

Punishment would say, I need to inflict some kind of suffering in your life so that you learn not to be bad anymore. I need to make you feel bad so you stop doing bad things. Okay. And punishment does erode trust in relationships. You know, if you feel like you're. You have a friend or a partner, someone in your life who literally tries to hurt you when you don't do what they like. It doesn't tend to cultivate a lot of warm, fuzzy, trusting feelings over time. Right. But if you have a parent who is scared of your emotional reactions to a boundary and just lets you do whatever you want, that also doesn't feel safe and secure because you can sense that basically what's happening in your world is based on what you want and what you feel and not based on any form of guidance. So what we need to do is what is create structure. So if I. If I've worked through with my kid, this is when you get to have screen time, and this is what it looks like, and they've. They violated that. I'm going to go back and I'm going to hold them accountable. And what that means is I'm going to say, let's take account of what just happened. So this is the rule, this is the boundary, and this is what just happened, which tells me you are not in a place to make good choices about this tablet, which is probably because the game you were playing is too. It creates too much craving. That's a good word for kids. I was going to say too addictive, but I think kids are like, what's that mean? Right. But the. This game is making your brain crave it, which made you make a choice that wasn't respectable for our boundaries or it wasn't in line with the rules. And so here's what I'm going to do. I am going to have you take a break from this game for a week. I'm going to have you Take a break. Because I think that this game is making you want it so much that you're willing to break rules and break trust between us. And so I'm going to make sure that that doesn't happen over this week. And then we're going to come up with a plan for how we're going to handle screen time or whatever. And obviously, like, as you're listening to me, there might be a lot of variance in, like, what your child's relationship is to tablets and games and all of that. But. But the sense we want to give our kids is I am going to cultivate the environment you need, the opportunities you need to grow and learn and flourish. And I would say, you know, if you haven't read it yet, the Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt is a really important read for every parent, which a lot of people have been reading it. It's been like number one on the bestseller list for a long time. But he really goes through the data and the research around how technology is affecting mental health and our children. And so his recommendations are pretty strict and I'm going to follow them. But it is like, no social media till they're 16, no smartphones till high school. Oh, shoot. What's the other one? I can't remember the other one. But those are the two that I think are really, really big. Like, if you don't have a smartphone in your hand. My kids don't even have their own tablets. We have tablets they're allowed to use when we' airplanes or really long car rides. Otherwise they don't have their own device. We watch some TVs, we play here and there. But there is a sense of limit, just naturally. And they are going to experience that with their friends at friends houses in different places. I'm not going to have total control over that, but at least I'm minimizing the amount of exposure they're having around that stuff. And they aren't going to love that. I mean, they already don't. My nine and a half year old is like, mom, everyone else gets to play Fortnite all night long. I'm like, that's. I'm really worried about your friends. It's really concerning, you know, But I'm. I'm not gonna do that to you, kid. And when you are 26, 27, 28, I promise, you aren't going to look back and think, how could she have done that? You're gonna be like, I'm glad you did that. Because then I went fishing and I had a baking Business. And my kid, my kid can cook dinner literally like by himself, start to finish, like meat, the whole, the whole nine yards. Because he's had opportunities to learn and grow and thrive and he has great relationships. And granted he has some screen time. I don't give him no screen time. He has somebody limited. So I mean, I think that's just an example. But our kids need us to cultivate structure and limits around things that their brains are not yet ready to structure and limit themselves. Beauty.

Well, I think you also, I think you answered sort of both questions combined, which is good because we're, we're pretty much up for time because I think in some ways you're describing this, this notion of self esteem almost being linked to competence in some way.

Capability.

When we can, yeah, capability. We can develop our kids having some, some capability and some knowledge that like they're good at those things, that, that is incredibly empower. And then they want to do more of either that thing or pursue other endeavors where it's like, oh, I wonder how I could get good at that, you know, and, and what would that look like?

Confidence is really developed as a result of feeling wanted, known, supported and connected in relationships and having the opportunities to have grit, which means I push through experiences that are challenging, painful, confusing, and I get to the other side and I get to feel proud. Right. I, I, I watch like one of my four year old girls when she is like working on something and it could be something small like her zipper, but she will like sit there for 20 minutes going and like try to figure it out. I'm like, that girl has so much grit. And if you had watched her as an early toddler and watched us together, you probably would have been like, like, man, that kid is a really sensitive kid. And that mom is like really nurturing and soothing. But it was just what her brain needed at that time. And then when she is trying to learn something and do something, I stand back, I stand by, but I stand back and I give her the chance to figure it out. And that can be hard when you're a perfectionist. Sometimes I can do that when we're cooking where I'm like, oh, don't cut it like that. And then I'm like, it doesn't matter. They cut it like that, Eli. Oh my God, why do you care?

Because when they actually have opportunities to try something and fail at it and try again and try again and try again, they develop grit and then they develop capacity and then they develop confidence. So we're giving them connection and opportunities for growth. And that is what helps a kid feel like they can try new things, even though trying new things involves failing.

Beauty. Good lesson for all of us as well. It's a good place for us to to pause. I feel like we scratch the surface. I would love to have a much more geeky conversation, data driven research conversation. I love those. But I wanted today to be very sort of like tactical and practical for people that are out there listening. For people that do want to dive more into your work, your book, where can they find you? Where should they go?

You can buy my book anywhere you buy books. It's out September 3rd, so you know Barnes and Noble, Powells, Amazon, all the big guys and gals. And you can also head to my website, attachment nerd.com and you can learn more about my first book and other resources I have. And I am always running my mouth on the Internet. Attachment nerd on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, giving out as much free practical information as I possibly can because this is my life's mission. So all those places, beauty.

Well, thank you so much for joining us everyone that is tuning in. Don't forget to man it forward. Share this somebody. Share this with somebody that you know will enjoy it. If you are a parent, maybe this is something good to share and listen to with the other parent. I think that'd be a great episode to tune into. So as always, thank you so much for tuning in. We'll have all the links in the show, notes for everything described. And until next week, this is Connor Beaton signing off.