The 3 Mountains of Leadership: Finding Purpose Beyond Yourself

All right, Mr. Philip McKernan, how you doing? Welcome back to the show.

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Yeah, I think, I think this is a three-peat. And because I think, well, for the guests that don't know, Philip was my very first conversation 11 years ago. And I happened to run into Philip intentionally, not actually accidentally, but meet up with Philip in Ireland when I took my son there. earlier this year and realized that it had been 11 years that I've been running the show and that you were the very first guest. I remember driving over to North Van. I think it was North Van or West Van.

Was indeed, yes.

Yeah. And coming to your house and setting up a mic on your kitchen table. I just— yeah, I look back and I was like, I had no idea what I was doing, but you were so kind and so generous with your time. And Yeah. And I mean, here we are 11 years later and the show has grown exponentially and you've done some absolutely phenomenal things. I've kind of been keeping tabs on your life and your journey. And so such an honor to have you back on the show.

Yeah, I appreciate it. Well, it's always good to start at the bottom and then you can grow from there. So maybe it's bring me back in and maybe I can add a bit of value this time. Who knows? But no, it's an incredible achievement and It feels in so many ways like yesterday, and yet your life and my life have taken so many twists and turns, and here we are.

Yeah, that's kind of the nature of it, eh? But, well, I want to talk to you about a bunch of stuff. It was funny sitting with you in Ireland and getting to sit with your son, and I had my son there, and it was such different stages of life. And it was pretty damn funny. I walked away being like, man, I remember meeting your son when he was almost my kid's age. I think I met Charlie at like 8. I think he was 8 years old or 6 years old or something like that. And I was like, oh my gosh. But I wanted to have you back on the show to celebrate the 11 years to do that since you were the first guest. But I also wanted to talk about your work. I want to talk about impact because you've had an impact on my life. And I think that you really have a substantial impact on a lot of people's lives, people that come into touch with you. And you are just such a salt-of-the-earth, genuine human being. And I really have, as I've been in this space, in the sort of self-help, personal development, therapeutic space now for 12 years, I've gotten to see behind the doors and behind the scenes of a lot of people. And you've always stuck out to me as just one of the most genuine human beings.

Thank you.

in the entire industry and just one of the most genuine human beings that I've ever come across. And so, thank you, thank you, thank you, because everything that I think you're about to talk about for the audience listening, this man really lives it. He really actually lives it and breathes it, and it's phenomenal. So, talk to me a little bit about impact. Obviously, I think most people want to have impact on others. Maybe where we can start is What do you think kind of gets in the way? What are some of the things that most people bump up against when they're trying to have an impact in the world, but they just seem blocked or they're sabotaging themselves?

First of all, thank you for those beautiful words beforehand. And yeah, let's get into it. It's a gorgeous question and a beautiful question to unpack potentially as well. There are so many things that get in the way, but there are some core fundamentals, and I'll contextualize it through some lived experience. For years, Connor, we would bring people to developing countries to expose them to impact, going to orphanages. We went to an abandoned seniors complex in India where these old people are just literally sent to die. Their families have taken their houses and their wealth from them, et cetera. And why am I sharing that? I'm sharing that because the inevitable thing that we would bump up against as entrepreneurs would sign on to come to these experiences Is a lack, first of all, a fear, and then a lack of understanding of how they can make an impact. So they would say, well, what toys can I bring to the orphanage? And I'd say, you don't bring toys. Well, can I bring toothbrushes and hairbrushes and whatever? I said, no, no, you don't bring that. And they said, can I? Well, I'm studying my Spanish and my Portuguese right now. So you don't need to do that either. And you can see the, albeit the desire to help and to go over and above the call of duty, so to speak. that they couldn't put a value just on their presence, just on who they are as a person. And fast forward 4 or 5, 6 days, 8 days, whatever it was, to watch these men— I mean, I can feel the emotion already— sitting in front of young boys and young girls, old men, old women, holding their hands, and tears in their faces just because the joy in this kid's face or this old person's face just to be seen. And I think we struggle so deeply to put a value on just us. We often go to the place that we perceive that we can make an impact and we can make a difference. So, that is one of the big things. I also saw it through an experience I used to run called One Last Talk. I'd ask people to share their story on stage and then instantly turn around. And you know the concept well. I would instantly turn around and go, oh, no. Listen, Philip, I really appreciate it. But listen, there's a friend of mine, Connor. You got to ask him. He's got a great story. But me, my story? No, no, no. Like it? No, no. Maybe someday. I'll have a story worth telling. So they're the judge and jury of whether their story has impact, whether they have impact. And fundamentally, they're completely and utterly wrong in both accounts. And that is one of the primary things that people bump up against. And I'll give you one more. And it kind of feeds into the other 2, and then I'll stop. And that is we don't put a value on what we do naturally. One of the things that I used to do for the longest time is I'm a storyteller by nature. It's just there. It's always been there. Do you think I put a value on it, Connor? Not a hope in hell. Not a hope in hell did I put a value on it for years and years and years and years. So it's what we do naturally, whether we see people, whether we ask beautiful, inquisitive questions, whether we listen, and not even listen, but hear deeply, whether we just hold space for people, whether we have tremendous empathy. These are qualities. that most human beings have, but they don't put a value on that. They put a value on their ability to wash a car, to build a cabinet out of wood, to build an app, to do whatever. And society, of course, applauds us and rewards us for that in monetary terms. So that's where we often find ourselves driving our value, which I think is a mistake.

I think there's some great examples in there. I remember years ago, probably 2018, I went with a group of men and we went down to Guatemala and helped to rebuild a school down there and got to hang out with the kids. And, we built them a playground. And, you walk in and there's no— it's just dirt floors. And, it's one of those things where we had raised some money to help with the school, but then it really was playing soccer with the kids in the field, playing basketball with them, And, it was in the sort of humanity of it, in the human connection where I was like, oh, this is a huge part of what this is about. It's not just about building the jungle gym and putting some concrete floors in. Those things help, but it really is about those touchpoints. And, I see that in my son as well. I mean, when people come over and even if they'll bring him a little gift or something like that, what he really wants is come be with me, come connect with me, come hang out, come play.

Yeah.

And that's the sort of insatiable nature of what he's looking for. And I think sometimes I love what you're talking about because it's like, maybe is it fair to say that the heart of impact is really in the humanity? It's really about being able to connect with people outside of everything else. Because I think normally we think about impact as how much money can be donated or how many pairs of shoes or what can we build. But I really hear you saying that at the core of it is sort of the human connection. Yeah.

Yeah. And while I emphasize the idea of not bringing gifts and things like that, there are occasions where you go to a place and they have a genuine need. And I'll give you a real-life example. I think it was Peru, and we went to an orphanage and we spent 3 or 4 days there. And on the last day, it became very apparent that the kids didn't have— some of them had shoes, most of them didn't have shoes. And if the shoes they did have were falling apart. So we went down to the local market and 2 clients who I call good friends from Canada came with me. And they thought I was a decent negotiator, but they saw a— I don't know. Something just happened. But when I was negotiating for someone else and negotiating in a good cause, then there's a different perspective. There's a different focus. Long story short, we purchased shoes for, I believe, every single child in the orphanage, of which there was maybe 40 or whatever. But I can guarantee they'll never remember that. And the people running the orphanage will probably never remember that. What they will remember is 2 young girls who were wheelchair-bound, who were non-responsive. Like, their heads were down, they were drooling. I don't know what their challenges were. They had no language whatsoever. And they literally would lift their eyes on occasion, and I would go over and engage with them. The clients would go over and engage with them. here and there throughout the few days. And we were told at one point, there's no point spending time with them. They're just gone. They're not present. They're not with us, so to speak. And on the last morning, we were doing a kind of a goodbye, and we were presenting the shoes, and we were doing some fun stuff. And I looked around, and the girls weren't there. And I said to the girl who was organizing the whole thing, I said, oh, where are the 2 girls? She says, oh, they're sleeping. And I just called bullshit. I said, well, we're not doing anything until the girls are here. And the girls were going up to the dorms, the women who were looking after the orphanage, and I walked with them. And I walked in, and the girls were sitting in their wheelchairs. And excuse the graphic nature of this. And as I got close to them, I could smell— they were sitting in their own piss and shit, basically. And they were being completely and utterly ignored. And I said, we are not going anywhere. Nothing is happening. Nothing's been handed over. There's no ceremony until these girls are showered, dressed, and they are downstairs with us. And I kind of lost it a little bit. Long story short, an hour later, the girls come down. I look over and there's 2 of our clients doing some sort of hand tap song game or something. I don't know what the hell it was. And the 2 girls, their heads were lifted up. They were engaging. They were smiling. They were laughing. There wasn't much noise, but they were seen. And they were experienced. And the humanity in that, to me, just tells me— People say to me sometimes, well, one visit to an orphanage can't make a difference. Bullshit. Like, absolute bullshit. I'm sorry, I completely disagree. Those girls may not have been seen for years and may not have been seen for years after that, but at least they know that they're human after that visit.

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's interesting because I think for a lot of people that's confronting to go and create experiences like that or go and have moments like that. You know, I think— do you think that part of what blocks people from having real genuine impact is that they're personally afraid of being seen, of being understood, of really being God, and so they don't want to go out into the world and do that?

I think it's a great observation. And you touched on something I not glossed over, but I maybe left out. And that is one of the challenges of bringing people to developing countries or putting them in any environment. You don't have to go to Guatemala. You don't have to go to Peru. I think you can impact people on your own doorstep. The nervousness that people have being put in those situations. And one of the most profound situations in terms of impact, and impact comes in lots of different ways. It's not just going to develop developing countries, was washing, physically washing 50 men in India. And I won't get into the story. It's quite a long-winded story. Never in my life would I ever imagine washing another man. And yet, I was washing strangers. And if I did, it may be my dad or whatever in the future, or indeed my son when he was a young boy. But it was profound. And you hear this statement sometimes, oh, it changed me. And people— it's so cliché. But I walked out of there, Connor, I don't know how, But I felt like a different human being. And I still, to this day, don't know how I felt different or what changed. I felt like a different human being. But the fear that gets invoked in everybody, including myself, putting myself and putting ourselves in those situations— because I think what happens is it's confronting because you begin to meet all of you. You begin to meet the part of you that has empathy, the part of you that has love, the part of you that wants to help. And then you also meet the part of you that has disdain and this dislike and distrust and has judgments. and has— yeah, you meet all of you. And I think that's the beauty about travel. And it's also the beauty about impact, depending on what kind of impact it is. But I've seen a lot of people being very nervous of going into situations like that 'cause they're afraid, but they make it all about them. But I don't know what to do. I'm uncomfortable. I, I, I. And it's the I conversation. I go, it's not actually about you. And when you get that, That's when everything changes. And the irony is, the biggest— I believe, I still to this day wonder and hope that clients or people that I've come across in my work and people I've served, I just hope they get a fraction of what I got, what I've received. It's not why I do it. But the biggest beneficiary, I believe, when we put ourselves in these situations is us, because we learn and we begin to accept all of us. But it can be confronting for a lot of people, for sure.

Totally. Totally. We're going to come back to impact, but I want to just take a step in a different direction, which is around the storytelling piece. And for people that haven't heard Philip talk, he's a phenomenal public speaker. And I think it's kind of part of how I got introduced to you was somebody had recommended that when I had first started Man Talks in Vancouver, that you come and be one of the speakers. And so, I think that was my initial interaction with you. And, I'm curious that you're back in Ireland now. What is it about the Irish culture that just produces world-class storytellers? You, John O'Donohue, David Whyte. I mean, there's just so many men that I think about and women as well that come out of Ireland. They're just gifted storytellers. Is there something about the culture? Is there something about the communities there? Can you put a finger on the pulse of what that is?

I'm not sure I can put a finger on it, but I'll give you a perspective that may or may not be accurate for some, but it certainly feels aligned for me. And that is, at one point in history, all we had was story. That's all we had. There was nothing else. We went through a period of— very long period of 800 years of being controlled and tyranny. Having everything stripped from us to the point where at one point we weren't allowed, you know, play music, we weren't allowed go to school, we weren't allowed sing. The goal was to strip the hope from the psyche of the Irish people. And all that was left to maintain sanity, in my opinion, but also to maintain history, was the oral ability to share through song and through storytelling. And there would've been, these ancient storytellers called Shanakese. And Shanakese would've traveled around the country, and they were kind of part entertainer and part historian. And they would've come, for example, Connor, to your house, and you would open up the door, and you would feed them, and you would keep them warm, and you would welcome them, and they might stay for a night or two. And their job then, their repaying of this beautiful trade, was they would tell stories. stories of yesterday and stories of 1,000 years ago. And these chanukkis would travel around the country. So I'm not sure it's a developed skill. I think it was born out of necessity to hold onto some semblance of who we are and who we were, and therefore, to some extent, who we're going to be in the future. So storytelling is profoundly important. And I think it's— talk about leadership, and I know we'll probably talk a little bit about that. I think your ability to tell a story And to not even tell a story, but to share a story is profoundly important, whether it's on stage, whether it's in front of somebody, whether it's within your— with your children. It still has been and will continue to be, I think, the most important way that we communicate to each other.

I mean, it sounds like it was almost a way for the culture to stay alive.

Yes.

You know, behind the scenes. And I remember reading somewhere Because after I came to Ireland, my COO, her husband is from Ireland and he's there from Cavan. Cavan, I think that's how you say it.

Cavan, yeah.

And so we went to, you know, I brought my son over there. We had first father-son trip. We went and visited them. And it was really interesting to be in the house where he had grown up in this little tiny town. And there was, but there was a familiarity to it, having known you and and some other folks that have come from Ireland. And I was welcomed into their home and his dad just starts telling me stories about— he just starts telling me stories. And I was like, it feels very welcoming. It feels very familiar. And I got glimpses of my own childhood where my grandfather would tell me stories, but he would make up these really sort of illustrious tales of animals that would go on these adventures and they had personalities and they were going through conflict and how having to resolve it. And, you know, there was the badger and the deer and the wolverine and like all the animals, right? And so, I was kind of learning about the animals, but also, it was just very entertaining. And, my son has been hooked on stories, you know, like stories about dragons. We're always the dragons and he's a very specific dragon all the time. But, it was just very interesting to be in Ireland and walk into a friend's house and have his father greet me with just stories. And then I came and sat with you and had lunch, and it was the same thing. You were telling me stories. And I was like, what is it about the Irish culture that is just— it feels so rich within your communities? And I think it's something that's really lost in a lot of ways within Western culture. Story has been sort of conscripted into political warfare and media warfare. And it's kind of lost its— the everyday person's connection. At least that's how it feels to me, is that story has kind of lost its thread within the sort of cultural milieu. And so, I'm curious of how do you see storytelling fitting into the average person's life, for the average man, listening to this show, where should story fit in? Is it something that you should pursue?

Everywhere. Everywhere. Everywhere. It's the ability to, I believe, own your own story, fall in love with your own story, become a storyteller so you can communicate better as a human being. regardless of whether it's in a boardroom, whether it's in a bedroom, whether it's at a bar, whether it's at a wedding. I think just to know that you have a story in your back pocket that has the capacity to share something. And I believe some of the most beautiful stories are the stories that we observe. Not always. Sometimes they're the stories that we're in and they can be about us. But I'm a lover of the stories that we observe. And there's so many. so simple. And I'll give you a quick one, if I may. I remember years ago getting a phone call from my dad. He was doing a golf trip to this beautiful golf course up in Northern Ireland. And one of his clients couldn't make it. So, I jumped on this trip and I went in this beautiful, luxurious bus. And as we got on, my dad was in the drinks business. So, let's just say, I'll just make it simple from a branding point of view. Let's just say my dad sells Pepsi, but on this bus, all they had was Coca-Cola. It was different Irish brands, but let's just make it simple. And the The bus driver was driving up the north and my dad was making fun of him that he had Coca-Cola, not Pepsi, but no big deal. Anyway, long story short, we play the golf. And on the way back, we stop in this cool little pub outside Dublin. And let's just say the bus driver's called Jimmy. I can't remember his first name, but Jimmy's this big man and kind of quiet, but a lovely man. He was very pleasant. My dad sits down. My dad's bum had just hit the seat before he looked around and couldn't see Jimmy the bus driver. And within a second, he's back up again, walking around the pub, looking for Jimmy the bus driver. And Jimmy was hidden around some little alcove, having lunch on his own. And my dad said, Jimmy, you're not sitting on your own. And he said, John, John, you're with your clients. You're doing your thing. I'm just the bus driver. Because there's no such thing as just a bus driver with me. And he goes and he picks Jimmy. dinner plate up, and he brings it back to the table, but there's very little room. So what they do is they pull up another table. Jimmy sits down, my dad sits down, and 2 or 3 of my dad's clients get up and walk over. I'm witnessing this as a, I'm guessing, 20-year-old at the time. And my dad's not looking for anything, Conor. He's not looking for anything. And when they get off the bus in Dublin, Jimmy goes to shake my dad's hand, but he's quite emotional because you can tell my dad saw him. And he said, John, thanks for being so respectful, something along those lines. And then he said, by the way, he said, there'll never be Coca-Cola on this bus again. There'll only be Pepsi. And my dad said, I wasn't looking for any. And he says, and that's why. That's why we'll only have Pepsi from this day forth. And he walked away. And that is a story. That is something I observed. It's not rocket science, but it is a reminder of the humanity in all of us. And as AI comes into the world and as people are cautious and afraid and embracing it and all the other things, is as long as I'm alive, for sure, we're still going to need moments of humanity like that. And I think one of the greatest ways to remind myself of that story and to check in. Am I being a good human being? Am I meeting you in a coffee shop, in my local coffee shop here? And am I present? Am I doing my best to be present with your son? And I tell that story to remind myself, but I also tell that story to remind others of what's possible. And that's the power story.

How does somebody— because I think as you're talking about this, I mean, I love the story that you tell about your father. And I think it's such a good example of, again, just letting humanity lead, really seeing people and being with them and being present with them, which I think is a gift in and of itself. But I think a lot of people are at odds with their own story. They think about their own life. I can imagine a man listening to this conversation and hearing you talk and saying, I hate my story. I didn't like my childhood. Being a teenager sucked. I'm struggling as a— whatever it is, as a business owner, as a professional, I'm struggling to find a job, just got fired. I don't like my story. And so, maybe give some insight into how does one begin to reconcile with their own story and own it, come to accept it? What does that look like?

Yeah. Well, I'm going to be direct. Tough shit. And, what I mean by that is not lacking in compassion but just a kind of a A kind of an ask and an invitation to really think about what the options are available, what's on the table here. So many of us, Conor, have a book of our life. And let's just say we're in chapter 10. And let's just say, all going well, we have 10 more chapters to go. And most of us, we're kind of okay with chapter 1 to 3. We're not okay with 4 or 5. We're okay with 6 and 7. We're not okay with 8. And 9 was a fucking nightmare. I'm never going to talk about 9. And 10's been okay, but 11 is going to be amazing. Let's just talk about 11, even though it hasn't happened yet. Let's talk about 12. Let's focus on 13. Let's focus on 14. And I think that's a fundamental mistake. If you don't own your story— I used to hate my story, Conor. I used to really disdain myself. And at one point in my life, when I was about 12 years old, I went to my mom and I said, can I change my name? My mother was really upset, but did her best to fight the tears back and said, well, If you want to, yeah, but I don't know what it means legally. And I was exploring it. And when I look back, I realize what I was trying to do was change the name of the book and hope that the story, therefore, would go away or the story would be different. And it wasn't until I went to therapy— and I really went to therapy. I didn't go to therapy to check it out, to see what it was like, to walk away and judge it or find a hole in it. I really stepped into it, and I realized that, oh my God, I had I had so much judgment. I had so much disdain. I had so much sadness. Oh my God, I was riddled with sadness. And then there was glimpses of joy in amongst it all. And it wasn't until I started to accept my story could it open the gateway and the doorway for me to actually be, to some extent, proud of my story and to actually fall in love with my story. And when I say tough shit, I don't mean that to be cold and callous. But what I really am asking is, you have no other choice. It's already lived. So you can continue to ignore it. You can continue to fixate on the future to rewrite the chapters. But the chapters that you've lived, the importance of accepting and understanding the chapters that you don't like are absolutely imperative for you to give yourself permission to move into the places that will bring you joy. And the only way I know how to do that is to take the power of these chapters that you don't want people to know, And get ahead of it. And by doing that, you share those stories first. And if I may give you a quick example of— it may not be the perfect example, but it's an example. I was doing a kind of a Dragon's Den, Shark Tank entrepreneurial thing where 3, I think it was 3 or 4 entrepreneurs were at a table.

Hmm.

And these young entrepreneurs would pitch their stories and we would help them critique them and they would get voted through or not. And the winner of the entire thing got $50,000. They got mentoring, they got marketing support, they got marketing spend, they got financial insights and loans and all sorts of stuff. Anyway, this young man walked up to us and there was, say, 3 entrepreneurs, pitches his business. And the first entrepreneur, after about 7 minutes, turns around and says, I loved your pitch. Just would've loved to have seen a bit more of the numbers to see where the business is going and the financials. And he goes, okay, and he's making notes. Second entrepreneur is also equally gracious and nice and pleasant and says, listen, I love the pitch. Just love to have seen maybe a bit more marketing and a bit more of a plan around how you're going to get this out to the world. And his concept was a gym, like a physical workout space with the idea of franchising it. And then it comes to me and I just look and I said, I don't get it. And he goes, what part of the business do you not get? I said, the whole thing. And he's looking very confused. Meanwhile, the 2 entrepreneurs are staring at me going, who's the asshole at the end of the table? And I said, Deb, I said, I don't get it. I don't mean that I don't get the concept. I just don't get why you. I said, really? Does the world need another gym? And then suddenly he got kind of angry and there was a little bit of flicker of sadness. And he goes, well, I think so. And I said, why? And he looked at me and he looked like he wanted to punch my face out and/or walk away. And he goes, well, I've got a personal reason, but it doesn't matter. And I said, well, it matters to me. And he said, when I grew up, my parents left me and I was sent to live with my grandmother. And she was the only one who ever loved me. Of which the tears started to emerge in his eyes. And he said, and then she died and my life fell apart and I ended up going to prison. And she died with complications that were due to obesity. And with tears rolling down his face, he says, and no one should lose somebody they love prematurely to something that can be prevented. And as he finished and he was wiping the tears, I'm wiping my tears, the 2 entrepreneurs beside me are wiping the tears out their face. He goes, you're not suggesting, he says, that I put that in my pitch, are you? And I said, oh God, no.

Oh God, no.

Absolutely no way. Don't put humanity in your pitch. Don't share the very fucking reason that you're doing this. Oh God, no. That would be insane. And most people don't get my sarcasm. And I think he was a bit confused. And I guess, of course, you need to put it in your pitch. But again, it's up to you. He gets to the final. He pitches to the judges, himself and 2 other people, and unanimously wins the whole goddamn thing. And when the judges were asked, why him? He said, they all had great pitches. They all had good, strong fundamentals, good market plans. Now he had finances, and now he had some of the marketing stuff in it, but he had the most compelling reason. And most personal reason to do it. And yet he didn't think, Conor, that part of it was important. And he was afraid of getting emotional. And yet that was the humanity that was missing in the business plan.

It's an interesting component because I think You know, I think part of what you're saying is really being able to own and accept what your story is, being able to be transparent about it and vulnerable, because it is vulnerable, right?

Yes.

To say some of those things and to reconcile with the truth of your life. Like, I think part of what you're saying that I think is Profound. More and more lately, I've been sitting with this notion that where there is truth, there is reality, and where there's reality, there's vitality. And that when we're out of contact with truth, we're out of contact with reality and aliveness and life.

Hmm.

And the tough part is that a lot of the times we're in the narrative about the truth, right? It's like, here's my story, here's what happened. Here's my real driving force. Lost my grandmother, the only person that loved me. And that's just true. But the truth is there's pain around it. There's hurt around it. And I think for a lot of people, it's that fragility. It's like when we come into contact with the essence of our own truth of our lives, I think it's really overwhelming for a lot of people. It's very confronting, you know, to feel maybe some type of exposure, to feel exposed, to express themselves in that way. And then I think in some ways, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this, or maybe we don't even need to get in this part. I think there's people that they are trying to, like, weaponize their stories, you know.

Yes.

It feels disingenuous. It feels performative. It's not really connected to any type of depth inside of them. It's like they're going through a motion. And so, I wonder how— are there certain things that you think an individual is going to have to sort of confront and face in order to find peace with their story? Because I mean, I just led a weekend with 50 guys and so many of them were at odds with their own lives.

Yeah.

hostile towards their past and who they used to be or what they went through or the abuse or the trauma that they experienced. And it's really like, fuck this, I don't want to accept that that's true, that that happened, that I made that choice or what have you. So kind of, I'd love for you to just articulate a little bit of what does a man do? How does he begin to walk himself closer towards the acceptance or the forgiveness or the allowing of like, yeah, this is my story?

Yeah, I guess there needs to be a— the very first step, you know, is even— I wouldn't even say a desire, but I would even say a gentle curiosity. Like, even a 1% curiosity is enough for me to see the potential for a man in particular to begin to navigate their story. And you're going to have to face your story regardless. And I think you're facing it every day. Somebody said to me one day, Connor, I think you'll appreciate They said, your work is hard. And I used to say, yeah, yeah, but it can be very valuable and it can be this. And I'd kind of defend it. And then I looked at somebody one day and I said, really? I actually don't think it's hard. And they go, really? But I've heard some of the work you do. And I said, I'll tell you what's hard is living with the shit that you don't think is affecting you and not addressing it. That's hard because that's exhausting. And I guess for me, Creating an environment where— and let's just stick with men for the moment, but could it be anybody? I think the biggest illusion and the biggest lie we tell ourselves is that whatever we went through doesn't affect who I am today. And it's definitely not affecting the people around me. And I would say that's bullshit.

Yeah.

Okay. And so many men in particular are so against the idea of ever taking what they've been through and using the word trauma. So I don't think many men have been through trauma. I think every single man on this earth has been traumatized in one form or another. Every single one. In subtle, very simple ways. And in sometimes really outrageously obvious, in-your-face ways. And it's awakening to the fact that actually you're being driven by a deep anger, you're being driven by a sadness, you've been driven by something. And how I generally contextualize this is, are you running on diesel fuel? Are you running on hybrid fuel? Are you running on electric? And let's not do the battery argument, say it's not as good for the environment. Let's assume for this analogy that actually electric is better for everybody. And a lot of people are driven by a fuck you energy. I'm going to prove you right or I'm going to prove you wrong. And that is incredibly potent and incredibly powerful and incredibly effective of getting you from A to B.

Yeah.

But eventually, it runs out of steam. Eventually, it takes up too much energy. Eventually, whatever you build either doesn't matter, it either doesn't work or it doesn't matter. So it'll never bring joy. And I often see this and particularly see this in soccer. So I work in professional soccer and it's a small part of what I do, but it's an important part of what I do. And I see this, I see these young men who are just so driven. And I say, who are you playing football for? And they often say, the team. I went, that's not really what I meant. I mean, who are you playing football for?

Oh, myself.

No, you're not. You're playing it for anybody but yourself. And what ends up happening is they actually get injured because they're so goddamn tense. And when they run into a tackle and they hit the other person, and you know soccer pretty well, they hit the other person, they're just that— they pick up injuries and knocks when another player doesn't. So they're playing with this diesel fuel, this fuck you energy, which needs to shift into hybrid, into a pure energy where it's more fluent. Things come to you rather than you constantly chasing and constantly being exhausted. And the reason that most of us operate on diesel is because we're running from something. We're running from something in our past and we're afraid. The last thing I'll say is this is a key piece. A lot of people don't want to navigate that and explore that, Connor, because they don't want you to take the drive away. They think if they examine and forgive and let go of the resentment they have towards somebody who hurt them, their drive will diminish. And in my experience, it's the opposite. They become insanely focused and they actually achieve a hell of a lot more and they just do it with a clearer, purer mentality.

It sounds like part of that switch of moving from— because I agree entirely. I've seen this so much. And most of the men that come to work with me one-on-one have exhausted the fuck you fuel, or they've used the fuck you fuel to get everything that they think that they wanted, and then they still feel empty inside.

Yeah.

And they still feel like they're lacking self-worth or any type of fulfillment. And then a collapse happens, a big crash happens. But it sounds like a huge part of what you're saying is that the switch from that fuck you fuel, from that diesel fuel to something that is more regenerative or generative for the individual is being able to contribute to others genuinely, being able to give to others genuinely. Is that right? Or how would you articulate that?

Yeah, I think that's a really interesting question and distinction. So there's 2 parts to it. There is reconciling their own story. And then there's impact. But I think here's the missing piece for most. I believe that the greatest impact we can make is through the lens of the pain or the trauma that we have personally experienced. And that ultimately, real healing, full healing, if there's such a thing, cannot exist without eventually coming back and actually helping somebody move through or get through or potentially even avoid the very thing that hurts you the most. And when you do that, everything changes. Ask me how I know. You can go to every website that I've ever built. You can go to every social media, and it'll never tell you why I really do what I do. And very few people ever ask me, Philip, why do you actually do what you do? Because you want to just make an impact? You want to make money? What is it? And I go, my mission on this earth is to eradicate loneliness. happiness for as many people as I can before I die. That doesn't mean I literally go out and create a dating app. It's I help them connect to meaningful work, meaningful relationships, and the most important relationship of all, leaving spirituality aside, relationship with self. Why is that such an insatiable need and desire and obsession for me is because I spend most of my life being lonely. So the missing piece for most people is they either bypass the work and don't do the work and try to help men or women with the very thing they went through, which never works. Or 2 is they do enough work. They have the courage to step into environments and community like yours or step into work with someone like myself. They do the work to let go so they become a greater beacon. They stop being such a selfish fuck by depriving humanity of their greatest gifts. They get out of their own way. They do the work, but they're the 2 categories I typically see. The final category is the man or woman who has the courage to do the work and then go back and help another man. It doesn't have to be a million men. It doesn't have to be a million women. Cats, dogs, goldfish. It doesn't have to be that. It can be one other person with the very— The man who stood on the stage and shared the fact that he wanted to take his own life and he had so much shame around At an event I ran. He had so much embarrassment and shame. And I didn't convince him, but I asked him, would he share that story on stage? Got a phone call the following week from his cousin who said, you're the only one that knows this, but I was about to kill myself and I want to tell you. And he was able to help him. And this man sat in front of me bawling his eyes out going, If I didn't tell my story, the thing that I'm so ashamed of, my cousin could be dead. So the very thing that hurt us, debilitated us, affected us the most is the thing that we move through, not even for us. We do it for humanity because it's the right thing to do. And then we share that for one other human being so that they can be at peace. They can reconcile that. They can move through that. They can empower themselves through that. That's why we do this.

I think the— I agree with everything you're saying, by the way. I think it's really spot on. And I think the piece that's hard that I've seen for a lot of men to reconcile with is that oftentimes what you're talking about can't be done in a vacuum. And, part of the challenge that they've been going through is that they've been trying to deal with it in a vacuum. I'll deal with my story without letting a soul know.

Yes.

I'll deal with my pain without letting anybody help me. I'll deal with the shit that I hate about myself or my life, but I'll never let anybody know that that's what's going on inside of me. And, I tried to do that for a long time. I mean, you know my story and my past and And I tried to do that for like a decade and it damn near killed me. And I just see so many men doing that because there's this shame of, well, who would I be if I let you know what's actually happening? And it's a hard piece to grapple with. You know, it's like, I was almost going to ask you, like, what's the sales pitch for the man who's just holding this big ball of pain and shame. And it's like, no, I can't do that. I can't talk about my story. I can't— because it really is this inflection point that's causing him to not find peace and acceptance with it, that there is this— there is this— it's like, you know, when you're going to cross the river, when you, you know, like in all the myths and whatnot, and to cross the river after you've died, you have to have coins. For the passage. And I think about that a lot of the times is that there is a kind of quote-unquote price that is to be paid for you to reconcile with the pain and the hurt that you're carrying inside of you. And part of that is this sharing with another human being. So do you want to just speak on that? I'm just going to leave it open and maybe just have you comment on that because I think it's a very important piece of the equation. And I see a lot of men just being like, that's— I'm not doing that. That's that part I'm not going to do.

I guess for me, the perception of the pain that it's going to cause by reconciliation outweighs the pain that they are in every single day and that they've normalized the pain every single day. That's the challenge here. So, the example I often use is my mother, who thankfully in many ways is still alive, even though her health is deteriorating. And she has suffered with severe arthritis for many, many years. And I wouldn't consider myself, Conor, the greatest patient. Like, when I get sick, it's kind of like, you know, I'm a little bit of a fucking moany git, right?

Absolutely.

And the world is against me, and I need lots of attention, and I'm high maintenance. Let's put it that way. At the best of times, particularly when I'm sick.

The classic man with a cold.

Exactly. Exactly. But if I ask my mom on any given day, how's the pain levels? She'll say, oh, no, no, it's in your taste. You know, it's— no, I'm fine. And if there was such thing as a probe that I could just kind of put against her hip or put in under her skin, and I could take the probe and I could put it into my hip, And for a moment or a minute or an hour, I could experience the pain that she is in, I would probably, knowing me, fall to my knees. I probably legitimately would fall, forget about my high maintenance tendencies, fall to my knees and collapse with this sudden shock of the pain that has been normalized within her body for so long. And the tragedy in all this, and I don't use that word lightly, The sadness is that when somebody has this ball of shame or guilt or discomfort or embarrassment or anger— we see anger a lot, particularly in men— when they're walking around with this, it is an incredible inhibitor to a number of things. It is an inhibitor for them to build a really wonderful relationship with themselves, which which they don't really give a toss about. That doesn't feel motivating enough. It is a beautiful inhibitor to getting in the way of, I believe, why they've been put on this earth. So a lot of men and a lot of people are making livings doing stuff that they don't really want to do, and they don't have clarity about what their purpose is, or so they say. I think we all have clarity. It's just what's getting in the way. And I think the emotions, The unresolved emotions, unexpressed emotions are one of the greatest inhibitors. And the last piece is, it is also a deep inhibitor for you to connect deeply with people around you. And we see our kids as a great example of this. A man who is hurt and doesn't want to allow his wounds to heal or to express his wounds is the man who is basically going to teach his children to do exactly the same.

Yeah.

And again, not the perfect example, but I'm in Vegas. There's 500 people in a room. I'm sharing something about alignment. Some guy puts his hand up and he goes, one of these— it wasn't really a question. It was more of a kind of, I'm pissed off at you. You've triggered me. So, I'm going to let you and everyone else know. And he goes, yeah, but this whole idea of living your life and being passionate about what you do and all, it's easy to stand on stage and share that. And I said, is there a Is there a question in there? And he goes, well, it's not that easy to just walk away from what you've been doing. And I said, well, let's talk about you if that's okay. I said, what do you do? And he said, I'm a software engineer. And I said, do you enjoy it? He goes, well... And I knew what was going to come, some weird nothing answer in the middle. And I said, if I could, can I ask you for a yes or a no? And he said, no. And I said, how long are you doing it? And he said, 14 years. And I said, excuse me? He said, 14 years. And I said, sorry, I can't hear you. And I could hear him perfectly. And he gets really annoyed. He goes, 14 years! And I said, okay. And you could just see the anger in this man's face. And he was angry at me, but the anger he had towards me is not even close to the resentment he has for himself. For staying in an environment that he cannot stand. And he's even built up resentment towards his family and his kids because he uses them as an excuse and a reason to stay in that environment. And I said, you have children? He goes, yes. I said, give me the name of one of them. And he said, Billy. I said, Billy comes to you in 10, 15, 20 years and he cannot stand his job and he hates it and it's killing him. What would you— and I didn't even have the chance to say, what would you say? I hadn't even finished the sentence. And he'd go, I'd tell Billy to leave. Put a value on yourself and Like, you're worth more than that, Billy. Don't stay a day in a place you don't want to— And suddenly everyone in the room is kind of like gasping or shuffling or making a comment. And he stops and he looks around, and one of those moments of, oh, shit, did I just say this? He didn't even stop to consider. It was automatic. And I said to him, here's what's going to happen with Billy. There's 3 scenarios that I can see. Billy's going to come to you and say, hey, Dad, I'm in this job. They treat me like shit. I don't enjoy it. I've done the wrong thing. I'm not enjoying— I'm not alive. I'm not creative. I'm doing something just for the money and I don't want to do it. And you're going to go, hey, Billy, you should leave. And here's all the reasons you should leave. And Billy's going to kind of internally roll his eyes and go, yeah, Dad, but you kind of didn't do it. And I watched you be angry and frustrated and pissed off and short with Mom and short with us because you'd come home and pretend to leave your work in the driveway, which you didn't really. And we all know you didn't. So thanks for the advice, Dad. But deep down, I'm not sure you're the greatest person in the world. Scenario number 2 is Billy comes to you because you've left your shitty job that is killing you and you know it's killing you. And he comes to you and says, hey, Dad, what should I do? And you go, Billy, I believe in you. I love you. I put so much value in you. Please put it in yourself. Get the hell out of that job. And Billy walks in the next day and hands in his notice. Because his inspirational father, who he looks up to and admires for making the decisions he needed to make, gave him some advice. And he could see him starting to smile. And I said, our scenario number 3, Billy doesn't even come to you for advice because Billy's been brought up in the university of courage. Billy hands in his notice without even consulting you because you inspired him by who you were as a man. Not who you told him to be as a man. And Billy notifies you that he has gone out of the job. And when you go, what are you doing, Billy? You shouldn't just hand in your notice. He goes, well, Dad, you did it, and look how that turned out. And you taught me by who you are how to put a value on myself, not by the quotes on the fridge from some book that you said you read and you tell me I should read every fucking year. I said, the choice is yours, and I walked away. So it's the normalizing of pain and it's the inspiration that we can become. I think, and the last thing I'll say on this piece is, in the absence of finding the self-worth and/or the courage to work on our stories, because I think we need and often need an external motivation. I know I sometimes do.

Yeah.

Do it for your children. At least start it for them and then finish it for you.

It's funny because as you were telling that story, I think we've become— it's just on the conversation of story. I think we've become so conditioned in modernity and modern culture to want the 2-step plan, the 3-step plan, you know. And it's what a lot of men will, you know, they'll come out to a weekend and they're like, well, what's the next step? What are the 3 things I need to do? You know, like, how do I— And it's interesting because I asked you the question and then you started telling the story. And I caught myself and I was like, oh, Philip's telling a story again. Why doesn't he just tell them what to do? And then as you were talking about the story, I was like, oh, he is telling them what to do with the story. This is an example of what's possible through the story. But it was like one of those moments where I even noticed myself in the diminishment of the potency of story. You know, and I think it's it's it's such an important part of it. You know, just being able to tell a story, being able to reconnect to our own story, being able to reconcile with it. I part of I run this three-month program for like ten guys, and at the end of it I have a very specific story exercise. And for some of them, it's very confronting. For some of them, they they don't want to do it. They don't do it. They don't want to engage with it. And, for other guys, they engage with it and really become something that alters them at their core. And, I love the story that you just shared because I think in many ways, we can just get trapped and fall asleep at the wheel in our own narrative. And, we can get trapped in the disdain and the dislike for the story that we're living.

Yeah.

get stuck in this, like, well, I don't really have a choice. And we can come up with all the reasons and all the excuses, and they are all— sometimes they're exceptional. They're really exceptional excuses. But I really love the notion of this, like, self-authoring of what's the next chapter? What is the chapter that I'm writing right now? What's the chapter that I've been writing and that I'm in the middle of? I think on that note, where I'd love to maybe just end is around leadership and the leaders that maybe are being called for right now. What does that look like? We don't necessarily have to— I mean, everybody's talking about artificial intelligence and what that looks like in the future and yada, yada, yada. I'm curious to get your take of What's your perspective of what great leadership looks like now and is going to look like a couple years from now as AI and robotics enter the scene? There's a lot of fear around people's jobs being taken. What would you say is a way to sort of hedge against that?

Yeah, I mean, I'm not an AI guy in the sense that I don't pay maybe enough attention or I don't pay much attention to it. And I might regret that in the future. I don't know. And I suppose ultimately, where is leadership going or where should it go? And where can we bring leadership in our own lives to combat the inevitability of the change that we're facing? I'll be honest with you, Conor. I'm not sure I know. What I do know is I do know what I believe I want to do as a man, as a person in this world. And the way I contextualize it is I love mountain analogies. I've been a hiker and for many, many years. And I love mountains and I love using mountains as a way to contextualize the opportunities that are available to us. The first mountain to me is, I believe my first mountain was all about me. It was all about Philip McKernan. I didn't realize at the time, but it was just all about me. It was all me trying to figure out my shit, trying to get whatever, no judgment, just it was. Mountain number 2 was about us, which is about how do I build a family? How do I build a business? How do we do something together? How do we build a community? And mountain number 3 is all about them, meaning how do I spend the rest of my life helping people move through the things that I can help them navigate through? And that is what I'm going to spend the rest of my life doing. And for many entrepreneurs in particular and leaders, they get stuck on the second mountain. They get stuck building something and justifying that actually it's impactful. Every year we write a check and we give it to charity and that's beautiful and it's amazing. And the world needs people donating money for sure. But I have seen the results of men in particular that I work with and women, but also this transition into the third mountain whereby they really start to orientate their leadership and their future towards helping as many other people move through something that they themselves struggle with and to great success. They've written books, they've done podcasts, they've done speeches, they've become authorities, they've done whatever, never imagining they could do it, amazing coaches, et cetera. And that's not because of me. I maybe helped them see it, but that's because of them. And I really think if we just spend more time helping humanity, I think that is the greatest leadership. What I'm trying to help entrepreneurs do, maybe I'll wrap here, is I think an entrepreneur is somebody who has autonomy, who sees a problem in the world, who wants to fix it, who has control over their own life. A brave entrepreneur, as I define it, is someone who gets to a point where they're not prepared to do that to the detriment of their own health. They're not prepared to just constantly chase money anymore as the primary goal. And then, a brave leader is someone who's basically going to go out into the world and help the world be a better place and make an impact. And, to me, I just don't think there's greater legacy for any man and any woman in the world. That's my view.

Agreed wholeheartedly. I agree. Thank you so much for joining me. And, it feels like a very Personally, fun moment to have you back on the show and just to connect with you and to sort of celebrate 11 years, but also to hear your continued journey and teachings. Where can people learn more about what you're up to? Because there's a number of ways that people can engage. Maybe just give them some insight into that.

Yeah, philipmckernan.com is for now the best way. We're building a new website, a new kind of brand or offshoot of that. And then Instagram, I think it's Philip_McKernan, M-C-K-E-R-N-A-N.

Great. We'll have the links on there.

If I may steal a moment, I just wanted to say thank you for having me on. But also, the last time we met, I don't know if you've announced this or everyone knows, but you've made a move, a personal move, a physical move. And from the day I met you, change, and I'm sure you have your own journey and your own nuances with it, but you were always willing to make changes. And I just want to acknowledge that. It sounds so simple. And I think you normalize it so effectively because you do it and you've done it multiple times, but it's not easy to do that. And I think a lot of us get very stuck in what we're doing and very stuck in where we're living and how we're showing up in the world. And to have the courage to let go of what we have perceived as normal and to shift it up in the hope that it supports not just ourselves, our family, and our community, To me, that just is really worth acknowledging. I just want to acknowledge you for that.

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I have talked about my move to Colorado and, yeah, my ongoing motto has been, let change change me, and just surrender to the change that's trying to come through in my life. And that's, I mean, kind of like you, our lives, you know, from Vancouver, you went to Boulder and then back to Ireland and got a castle. which is amazing. Everybody should go check out Philip's castle. And, I went to Manhattan, lived in Manhattan, downtown Manhattan, which I never thought that I would do. And then, upstate New York and now into Colorado. And so, it's a wild, wild adventure when we listen to life and get out of the way a little bit.

But, thanks, Philip.

Absolutely. Really appreciate you, man. We'll have the links to all of Philip's work in the shownotes. He's got some great books as well. And some great ways for you to engage with him. And I highly recommend that you check it out. For everyone that's out there, if you enjoyed the conversation, do not forget to man it forward. Share it with somebody that you think will enjoy the show. And as always, until next week, Connor Beaton signing off.