The 3 Things That Destroy Intimacy In your Relationship, with Stefanos Sifandos

All right, Stephanos, how you doing, buddy?

Good, man. Good to be here.

Yeah, man. Good to have you back on. It's been— gosh, it's been a few years since I had you on the show, and we always seem to have a pretty fruitful conversation. Let's start it off with the idea of masculine leadership in the context of a relationship. And I think we're going to talk a good amount about sex and intimacy and what that looks like. I'm curious to hear a little bit more about your journey from, you know, dating and being single into a monogamous context. I think that's where a lot of guys can struggle. You know, they go from being single, they go from dating, and then they get into a long-term relationship. And we can kind of fall into, you know, these habits and these patterns that don't necessarily lead to the type of sexual connection or intimacy that we want. But let's start with masculine leadership in a relationship. What, what does that mean to you in a practical, everyday sense? And then what might that look like spiritually, but also behaviorally?

So, as you know, some of the work that we've been doing with one of our teachers that we share around left-hand path leadership, if you like, Um, for me, and then part of that bringing in a consciousness of no problem— and that's not bypassing, and it's not, um, pretending bad or poor behavior doesn't exist— but it's, to me, the way I interpret that a lot of the time is meeting ourselves in, in light with more compassion, with non-judgment. So back to your original question, what does masculine leadership look like in Relationship, one word for me, ownership, right? And so one of the things that I've really struggled with in my life and in my relationships, and I feel I'm getting into deeper contact with this part of me now more than ever, is just ownership without the self-deprecation, without self-judgment, and without self-hate, right? And making myself wrong. And shame, like, such a big thing for me. I think for a lot of men, right, like, we feel shame and we either hide away from the world or we get really big and angry. And either way, it's an overcompensation. So for me, masculine leadership means just own your shit. Like, you raised your voice, you did something that wasn't in the best interest of you and your partner, own it. If that's something that happened, just own it. And don't own it with shame or looking for pity, which again, like, I've been guilty of that pattern in my own life where I can play the victim because I want to soften my perception. I want to soften their judgment of me. So it's all stories, right? Instead of just owning the thing that I could have done better and I could have done differently and just grow from it. I mean, to me, that, that articulate level of ownership and responsibility and being proactive with that, I think it's— I've seen it in my own relationship, man. I see it in, you know, in our men's group. I see it in other friendship circles. Like, when I'm proactive and I take that responsibility, not from a place of shame, but just from a place of no problem. Again, not bypassing, not trying to minimize my actions or the impact that they may have, but just not hating myself through the process. But we tend to grow in the relationship just in greater ways.

Yeah, that does seem to be— I mean, it does seem to be a big challenge, you know, it's like taking ownership without the bullshit, without the self-deprecation and the self-hatred and the shaming or the rejection of the ownership and the criticism onto the other, attacking the defensiveness. How has that shown up for you? Like, how have you gotten further down that road? Because I know for me, I've, like, in my marriage now, at the beginning of it, I had to have a conversation with my wife where I was like, look, it's really hard for me to do two things. One, apologize because growing up, it was not a safe environment for me to admit that I was wrong and apologize. And number 2, for me to take responsibility and ownership over a need that I might have because, again, growing up, my environment was not conducive for speaking my needs. And usually, when my needs showed up, it was a problem. It was very problematic. And so, I think in that conversation, there was an ownership over like these things are hard for me and that's what I'm working on. But I'm gonna be committed to doing that with you. And so I'm curious what that's looked like for you to step more into relational leadership.

Yeah, it's either having more self-control in the moment where I want to raise my voice, where I wanna be defensive, where I wanna turn it back on her, where I maybe wanna stonewall, where I wanna check out, where I wanna defend, or where I wanna point out her faults. The ideal thing is in that moment, and the ideal thing isn't necessarily that that never exists within me, but in that moment, I don't play it out, right? That's the ideal thing. It doesn't happen often, I should say. It happens, but not often. What happens more often, and I'm closing this gap and I have been over the years, is we have an interaction. I go to my reactive survival strategies, such as being bigger in my energy, being a little more verbally aggressive, deflecting, defending, you know, my tone switches to a more accusatory tone. So I get into my survival patterns, and then ideally, you know, seconds or minutes later, I'm acknowledging that, I'm taking ownership of that, I'm sincerely apologizing for that, even if possible making a connection of like where that's come from, what's happening, not excusing my behavior, just giving context for understanding, and then asking, you know, hey, like, what do you need? I'm to repair this, I apologize. That is the sort of evolution where it used to be, A, that was just nonexistent, that wouldn't even happen. And then over time, it's like maybe the next day it happens or 2 days later, or, and then over time, you know, maybe it's a few hours later. Like, for example, this morning we had a, it wasn't even a conflict, it was just a conversation, but I got heated, I got passionate, and I got defensive. A minute later, She walked in the bathroom. I was about to walk out and actually apologize. And I said, I'm glad you're here. I'm sorry that I got a little heated. She said, no problem. Thank you. I appreciate it. That was it. That was pretty much the extent of the conversation because she just recognized that I sincerely owned it. Whereas in the past, I could have too much shame. I shouldn't be getting heated, so therefore I've got nothing to apologize. I should be better. And I Didn't perform great, then move on. Like, I'm going to move on.

It's such a— it's— I think it's such a challenge for a lot of men, and especially guys that, like, that do have a ton of that shame. What about control? Because I think for— I mean, it's such an interesting thing. I've talked about, you know, men leading in relationship, in modern relationships, and sometimes that gets misinterpreted as, oh, you just want to control somebody, you know, or you're just controlling. And I think it's a byproduct of some women being in relationships with men that are genuinely just very, very controlling. And I think for some men, it's challenging to know and discern the difference between, am I leading in the context of this relationship, or am I just controlling? So, how do you distinguish between those two? And maybe can you speak a little bit to like, are there certain symptoms that you'll start to see in the relationship if you're controlling? Are there certain ways that, you know, your wife or your girlfriend is likely to respond if you, if you are moving towards this more controlling area?

I think if you're moving towards a more controlling disposition and dynamic in your relationship, you'll more than likely notice your partner, she'll probably acquiesce a little more, she'll people-please. You'll notice that if you're astute enough to notice and self-aware enough to notice what's happening outside of you and you want to, you'll notice her people-pleasing tendencies probably accelerate, minimizing her needs, maximizing yours. You'll probably notice that she's not really asking for what she wants. You'll maybe notice snappiness and irritability from her as well. That's maybe her passive-aggressive way. Again, not that men can't be passive-aggressive. I can very much be passive-aggressive in my own, you know, sarcasm is a form of passive-aggressiveness. It's not limited to females. However, It's very accessible for women to be more passive-aggressive for evolutionary purposes. It's a safer form of expression outlet, right? And so you may notice more passive-aggressiveness. You may notice that woman withhold intimacy, emotional intimacy, sexual intimacy, um, withhold affection, withhold care. Um, there could be resentment that you're experiencing. She wants to spend less time with you. She starts focusing more on— if you have children, more on the children, more on other things within your household or her career. So she's— there's less time for you because she doesn't feel safe in your presence, right? Like you're controlling her, she feels restricted. Now if there's abuse, historical abuse, or intensity or trauma in her history, um, especially around, you know, invasion upon her body, like physical abuse, sexual abuse, anything like that where she's being controlled, even just controlled how to think— maybe she grew up in a perfectionist environment and that's her, her mother is, was like that, for example, right? You may notice she goes back to wanting to control herself. Now, maybe she can't control you, but she can control maybe what she eats, or she can control her output, or she can control her productivity. Or she— you start noticing her maybe becoming more pedantic, more, um, obsessed even, right? Like trying to control the things in her environment that she can control. So therefore, she becomes like impatient, she becomes a little more reactive. And so you're losing parts of her because you're attempting to control and control the situation. I'll pause there because I've just thrown a lot and you may have something you want to share on that.

No, I think that's— I think those are all very accurate observations. I think the other thing that I've noticed is, is depending on her upbringing, is like a good amount of pushback like this can create. What I've seen in couples is like create a ton of conflict where the more controlling the man is, the more that she becomes almost like I have to fight for my territory. I have to fight for my sovereignty and my freedom in the relationship because you're trying to control me. And there's the inverse of that, right, where maybe she has a hypersensitivity to control and that gets, you know, you setting a boundary or you whatever can be misinterpreted as that. But I think that that's another big piece. So, how do we as men start to identify that we are being controlling without waiting for our significant other to tell us that we're being controlling? Because I think this is one of the big things that I hear a lot of women. It's like, I don't like, I can point it out, I can tell him, but sometimes that creates more hostility and more defensiveness. And so how does a man start to self-identify like, oh, I am being controlling? What does that look like?

Yeah, I think you've got to notice what's happening within yourself. And so if you're really attached to, you know, what you think is a suggestion, or you taking action in the, in the relationship, you're, you're highly attached to that. So if it doesn't happen, it disrupts your emotional sense of self. Like, you get angry, you get, um, scared, you, you become irritable, you become forceful, you become opinionated and domineering. Like, if you're noticing that, you're more than likely coming from a place of control, which is intrinsically connected to fear. Losing control. But if you're suggesting something and you believe in yourself, you, you know what your values are, you know what you stand for, you have a heightened sense of self-worth, you won't be so attached to how the environment feeds back to you because you know who you are. So your emotional volatility is a gauge. If you're more emotionally stable and you generally feel more regulated in your body, in your physiology, in your nervous system, when you are taking action that you believe is best for your family, best for your partnership, you can get disenfranchised. You can say, "Oh, I'm disappointed," even. You can get curious about, "Hey, I'm leading in this way. I'm taking this action. I'm making these decisions. I'm saying these things. I wonder why you're not receiving that. Let me go to my partner and ask her," as opposed to getting all worked up and feeling emotionally volatile or experiencing that disequilibrium internally. I think that's your gauge. Then you know that you're so attached to the thing that you're trying to do because you're codependent essentially. And without that thing happening, you're feeling out of control, you're feeling unsafe, you're feeling fearful. That's an indication that you're probably coming from control and not just authentic leadership.

All right guys, really quick aside. First off, thank you so much for tuning in to the show and to the channel. Uh, if you are wanting to go deeper, if you're a man that's working on himself in some way, shape, or form, you're wanting to be more self-led, you want to trust yourself more, you want to have a deeper level of self-worth, or maybe you're looking to improve your relationship, then I encourage you to check out the Man Talks Alliance. You can go to mantalks.com/alliance. We have over 1,000 men in this incredible community from around the world, men who are just like you, working to better themselves, to be a better husband, a better father, a better leader, in your own life. So check it out, mantalks.com/alliance. Yeah, I think those are all pretty solid. I think it's interesting because I think for so many men, I mean, for myself included, I went through a period of like, you know, in my 20s and early 30s where I didn't want relational responsibility. And I didn't know how to communicate what I needed and what I wanted in a relationship. And so, there was a lot of what Dr. Glover would call covert contracts and I'll do this for you in the hope that you do this for me. And then, there was a lot of kind of controlling to try and get the outcome that I wanted. And I see this with a lot of men where there's there's almost like a really big fear for a lot of men of communicating what it is they want directly. And that used to be something that was really challenging for me personally. It was like just saying, here's what I need in our relationship, or here's what I'd like, here's what I want. You know, just kind of like leaning into some of those things was really challenging. So, for the guy that's listening to this and I kind of want to do both ends of the spectrum, right? Like, for the guy that's listening to this and he is that sort of very controlling, more sort of domineering force that's trying to coerce things to happen in the way that he wants and to sort of like control the outcome, how can he begin to chill out? How can he begin to soften? Or like, what can he do? Because I think for some men, they're in that space and it's like, well, this is the only mode that I know. This is how I learned safety. You know, I learned to protect myself by controlling the environment, controlling the people around me. This is what has ensured safety. What can a man do to start to step out of that behavioral pattern?

Yeah, I think it's also worth mentioning. I'll get to that in a sec for sure. I think it's worth mentioning that one of the reasons why particularly men hold back in expressing their truth and asking for what they need is because there's a massive collective and individual fear of rejection and humiliation. And then, you know, you couple that with whatever that individual's history is around not being met in intimacy and relationship, or intimacy being unsafe, you've got a recipe for disaster. People will just— again, they'll either withhold, or they'll withhold and overcompensate and get big in their energy and try and control and dominate, right? And so the advice and the guidance that I would give to that man that wants to control because he feels so unsafe— essentially, that's what's really happening. You want to control because you feel unsafe. You don't have a pulse on what's happening. And so if you— the more you know, the more in control you are, the safer you feel, the more restful you feel. I'd say two things: practice what nervous system regulation looks like, and I'll give some very specific, simple examples in a moment, because your body needs more exposure to that. Because essentially the reason why you're wanting to control so much is because you feel unsafe in your physiology. You don't feel connected to your life force, if you like. You're in a dysregulated— even if it's a low-level dysregulated sympathetic activated state. And I'll give some examples of what that looks like. So regulation of your nervous system, like be proactive in prioritizing that in your life, because the more regulated you are, the less of a need you'll have to control because you will feel more safe. Pretty much full stop, end of story. Eventually, ideally. Obviously there's some fringe examples, but for the majority of us, that can be really true. The second thing I'll say, and there's no necessarily in particular order here, is accountability. Now, what does accountability look like? An example of accountability is being a men's group. Have other men that can sharpen you, that can challenge you, that can support you. As uncomfortable as it is, and I know that firsthand, like be in a space where you can be held and supported and met with non-judgment, compassion, and not met with shame. Like most men— maybe not even most, many, many men were met when they were boys either by their fathers or by, um, by their fathers or by even single mothers that were frustrated with the patriarchy or frustrated with their own lives or frustrated with having to survive or frustrated with the men in their lives and whatever it may be, right? That so often, that's something that's unspoken to often is the son-mother wound or the mother-son wound, right? And we can go down that path in a moment if we want, but it is important and imperative that men surround themselves with other healthy men that are on a path that value growth as well, that they can support each other so that they can keep hold each other accountable and say, hey man, like the way you describe that story, it sounds to me like you're being pretty harsh there. Let's talk about that.

Let's double-click on that because I think, you know, you and I have been in the same men's group with a few solid guys for the last— has it been almost 2 years? A year and a half? 2 and a half, right?

Yeah.

And I think it's transformed the two of us in so many ways that have been very, very beneficial. And, you know, we have— we've got the Alliance and there's, you know, 1,100 guys that are in there. And I think those men, it's interesting to watch the kind of like same pattern happen of like, I'm going to dip my toes into this and then they start to lean in. And I think, like, real men's work and men's group work is a kind of, like, full-force radical transparency that doesn't show up in many men's lives, you know? And it's like, it's hard to describe. And so I'm curious, like, when you say get around other men, get into a men's group, what does that require of a man? Not just like, what is he going to get from that? What does he have to do? But what's that going to require of him? And what's that required of you? You know, as you've— I'm curious to get your— like, I'm just gonna, as your friend, I'm gonna like pick your brain now in a different way.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Um, it requires us— I'll just speak for me, and I think it can— at least some of it will be translated to other men's, um, what is required of them. Possibly it's required confronting not just the convenient parts of me that I love the world to see because I think the world, my friends value that and they're okay with that and they're not gonna judge that, but it requires me being vulnerable and open and exposing more of myself. Not just the convenient part so that I'm not just partial in the world, but I'm more whole in the world. That level of confrontation is actually really fucking scary. And it has been very scary for me and very confronting and how I usually deal with fear which most of us do. Like, I either really hide and I run from it in shame, or I get really fucking aggressive to compensate for the pain that I'm feeling or the lowness that I'm perceiving myself to be in that moment because I want to protect myself. I want to control. And so it's really— it's, I'll say, forced. I'll use that word. Or it's prompted me, it's asked me because I've chosen to be there and keep coming back even when it's uncomfortable. It requires us to get really uncomfortable, requires me to get really uncomfortable. Not all the time, But sometimes also requires me to access deeper levels of compassion when I see my brother in pain. Like, how am I interpreting that? How am I receiving that? And how am I then holding for that for him, right? Like for you in moments where you've been in pain or you've been in difficulty or confusion or whatever it is, right? Like, how do I show up there? Like, because I believe this is the value that I have, accessing compassion really matters. I wish you know, there was, there was more of that access in my childhood as an example. I can share why after, of course. But again, no regrets, but just that's something that I really value. I really value in accessing more of that within myself for others and more of that coming to me. And so, you know, whether you're in— and this is the beauty, right? Like, you don't have to be in a 4-person or 10-person intimate, quote unquote intimate men's group. You can be in something like the Alliance. There's deep accountability there. I mean, I know your programs. I know you. I know how it works and how you function. No bullshit excuses. If you're watching this, you're listening to this, then you have access to— more than likely, you have access to be able to join a group of humans that are on a similar path to you that can provide you with accountability. So I go back to, you know, what you were asking, like what it's brought out in me. It's brought out really, really deep, dark places that I've run from and hid from all my life. And I've been able to be witnessed in that, man, I can't share with you. And I've read so much literature on this, that most relational wounds require a relational context to heal and be made whole again. Me being witnessed in the ways that I have in my men's group with certain humans that have really held me through what I believe is very ugly, you know, I've judged it, or is just really hard for me to express because it's really scary and sensitive and tender and all of that. There's been so much opening and healing and expansion that's taken part because of that. Like, I've been able to pass that on to my family, to my wife, to my child. Even if it's moments, even if a week later, 3 weeks later, you know, more of my personality or my ego comes online, those moments where I'm not living so strongly from my personality and my survival patterns they matter, man, and they compound. So we keep coming back to the fire, keep coming back to being seen, keep coming back to being witnessed, and eventually your disposition, your baseline, my baseline changes. And it is changing, and it has changed. And I'll just continue to be on that journey as much as sometimes I don't want to be because it's uncomfortable and I want to avoid it.

Yeah, I mean, I, I think the thing for me that's been interesting about, yeah, being in that type of, you know, group. And I've been in men's groups for a long time. You know, I've been facilitating men's groups for a dozen years. I've been in men's groups for a long time. But I think the group that we're in now, there's a kind of— there's a depth of— there's a depth of, like, conflict orientation, like a willingness to go through, like, the real hard shit. And there's a depth of challenge and there's a depth of accountability, but there's also a depth of like, I don't know, I don't know how else to say it, but here it is. Here it is. For me, the biggest piece that has changed is my knowing and my trust in being able to rely on you and the other men that are in the group. And that's really foreign. I think, you know, like, I didn't— I've worked with so many Navy SEALs and ex-Marines and former military guys that are like, yeah, civilians don't understand what it's like to be in the military, to have the type of reliance and trust on the man next to you when you go out to the battlefield. And then when you come back home in a civilian life, it's just so different. And I think I've caught a glimpse of what they mean. I don't think I actually know because I've never been to war. I've never you know, stood next to another man in that fashion. But I think I've caught a glimpse of it because in many ways, I think that this type of work has allowed for me to be able to trust and rely on the other men in the group in a way that has been deeper and more profound than I have in any other part of my life. And I think that's, that's transformative, you know, because then I— it's like I'm able to be a different father, a different husband, a different business owner when I know that the hardest, deepest, darkest bullshit that I'm going to go through or that I'm carrying, I can bring it to one of you guys and talk about it and I'm not going to be kicked out of the community for it. So, I think that that's an important piece and why I wanted to go down that path is Do you think that a man can effectively lead in his relationship without that type of brotherhood or connection? Because I feel like so many men are struggling because there's this vacancy of real deep male friendship in their life. And so they're carrying the weight of being a father and being a husband and trying to get the mortgage and the job and blah, blah, blah. They're carrying that entire thing by themselves. And so do you feel like a man can be an effective leader in his relationship without the real strong support from other, from other men?

I think it depends on how we define effective, but the short answer, knowing you the way that I do, is no. The answer is no, because we're relational beings. And so many young boys, you know, we spoke about the mother-boy wound, and there's also the father— and these are informal diagnoses, but there's also the father wound, you know, whether it be the archetypical unavailable father, um, not, not present, abusive, violent, hard, harsh, critical, um, enough's never enough, you know, good, good is never good enough, um, or just the, the— I mentioned the absent father, but the emotionally void father. Like, this ruptures trust within a man. I don't know if you can lead from a place of mistrust in your life. And the way that that mistrust is, is healed or made whole or amplified and enhanced in a positive way is in a relational context, largely when you're met in the thing that you run from, in, in your shame, in the places that live in you that are very dark, as an example. And when you're met in those places and you actually realize in, in a visceral way, oh, The thing I've been running from with myself, like these guys aren't judging it. Well, hold on a second. They actually love me more. Not only are they saying that to me, but I feel it from them. Oh, they trust me more because I'm being more of myself. That translates to, if you hold the intention of wanting, that translates to more effective leadership. And so I struggle to see how the answer is yes.

Let's shift a little bit out of that piece and more into the downstream impact of how we show up in relationship. Because I think one of the big things that I hear a lot of guys saying is, you know, I'm doing my best in the relationship, but my significant other, my wife, my girlfriend is saying that she, you know, I don't feel safe with you. She's saying, I don't feel safe with you. I feel like I want more of you. I feel like I can't get close to you. I feel like you know, I can't connect with you. What's she responding to energetically or behaviorally within us as men when she's saying those things?

Probably inconsistency and volatility, and possibly also her own experience with the masculine that may need some attention as well. And so, like, while he may be developing as a man and developing in his own leadership style and his own healthy, healthier expression, he still may not be where she would like or need him to be. And that's less of a criticism on him and not a criticism on her either, by the way, more like what she gets to work through. And so if you're seeing your partner make changes and those changes are noticeable, um, that still may not be enough for you as a person, right? You may need more, like where you're at, what your needs are, what your non-negotiables are. If you can give a very authentic, um, uh, what's the word I'm looking for? It's an inventory, like an authentic inventory of what your needs are, right? And ensure that they're not coming from a compensatory place or a wounded place. It may not be enough for you, but I think, you know, back again to the original question around what is she responding to, if we would just look at that man for a second, she could just be responding to— see, I think that hypocrisy is a very natural part of life. And it's a natural part of our growth and evolution. And so when we're growing out of an old way of being, maybe that's an aggressive disposition, like hyper-defensive, doesn't trust anyone, etc. We're moving into less defensive, more open, more curious, wanting to know what the other person— seeking to understand the other human. We can get caught between two worlds, between this new version that's emerging and who we want to be, and also this past version. The ego personality holds on really tight. And in that, we may come across as hypocritical, which can be also felt as inconsistent, and that can be interpreted as unstable or unsafe. So she could be responding to that. And that's why, you know, communication is really important. But more importantly, that's why that man having a men's group to maybe help him see that, if that's true, if that's the case, help him put words around that and definition around that, because we often can't see the forest through the trees. So if he has a relational container that he can go to, he can then come back to and say, hey, this is what I actually feel is happening for me as I've sat with this. You know, and I'm sorry it's feeling like that way and it's landing like that in your nervous system. Here's what I'm committed to. Maybe this would be helpful if you did A, B, and C, whatever, whatever the conversation is, right? But there's more, again, accountability, ownership, and not responsibility, yes, but it's more just connection to what's really happening with self. But you can rarely get there without someone saying, hey, forest through the trees, this is what I'm seeing. Oh, geez, I missed that. Thank you.

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's so true. Yeah. How does that play into a man being able to create a foundation for deep sexual connection? Like, obviously, there's a lot of Instagram content around, like, create safety and, you know, make sure that there's emotional safety and create the container, blah, blah, blah. But what does that look like practically? Because I think for a lot of guys, they hear that and what they're left with is like, I don't really know what I'm supposed to do to create the type of foundation for deep sexual connection and deep intimacy. Because I do think that for a lot of men, what I see on Instagram and on YouTube and stuff like that is a lot of men being sexually frustrated, you know, wanting more sexual connection. And I'm not saying that there aren't relationships where the woman's experiencing that, but I think for a lot of dynamics, there's— men are in dynamics where they feel sexually frustrated. And in your latest book, you kind of dove into this whole topic of tuned in and turned on. And so how do we as men begin to create that foundation? Like, what are some of the pillars that can go into that?

I think it's everything we've spoken to thus far in terms of refining oneself and being in deeper connection with the parts of ourselves that desire and yearn and that maybe are nasty or whatever it may be, right? But like really embracing and owning all of ourselves and accepting and loving all of ourselves becomes foundational. And then it's also making requests in the relationship. And also understanding like what your partner needs because everyone works a little differently. And you know, again, there's been periods in my relationship with my wife and even previous relationships where there's been lull times. I mean, those previous relationships, I don't want to say they don't count, they very much count, but it's a little different. This current relationship is probably more of an example, right? Because we have a child, we've been together the longest I've ever been in a relationship long-term, nearly 8 years. I think there's more value in talking to this relationship. And those low periods, they are impacted by both how I'm feeling, what I'm presenting, and what my needs are, and also my wife, right? And so, we've got to be able to communicate our needs and also ask what the other person wants. And sometimes, we have to make— I'll use the term like concessions or compromises, or we want to value sexual intimacy. And like, you know, you've shared with me as well in terms of guidance and advice in our relationship. Seth, sometimes it's just important to be in the practice and the act, right? And when you're in the practice and when you're in the act, you know, you discover something more about yourself. The disconnection that was there starts to form a deeper connection. And I've noticed that in, you know, my relationship, in our relationship with my wife. And so there is the importance of actually— it's more than just the act of sex, but it's prioritizing sexual intimacy and observing what opens up from that place. Because so many of us, fucking myself included, man, are happy to complain or happy just to whinge about something not going right, but aren't really prepared to confront the part of themselves. Again, like, I put my hand up here, confront the part of themselves that isn't very attractive, or at least we think it's not very attractive. It's required in that confrontation to actually get the thing that you want. And get the thing that you deserve and desire.

I would say I was just chuckling at the word whinge. I was like, whinge. Ah, that's, that's good.

That's good.

You know, wine, whinge, you know. Do you know Mark Groves? Yeah, you know Mark Groves? Yeah, we had fucking dinner together. Of course. Um, he and I were, were chatting, and I was, I was— I can't remember what we were talking about. We were like talking about like one of the biggest pitfalls for men around sex and intimacy. And it's something that I see so many dudes falling into. I've fallen into it in the past as well, which is complaining to try and get more sexual intimacy, like complaint as a vehicle. And it's just, it's off-putting. It's off-putting, but it's frustrating because it feels like the right thing to do in that moment. So, when I was chatting with him, I joked around of like, you can't complain your way into more cunnilingus, you know, like it just doesn't work. Like, it's just not going to happen. But it feels like the right thing to do in that moment because you're frustrated and you want more connection. And, you know, I think what's interesting is for many men that I've spoken to and worked with over the years, there's something sacred about sex where it feels like they get to access a type of connection that maybe doesn't feel as present for them in the rest of the relationship. And, you know, I hear a lot of men saying things like, well, that's when I feel the most connected to my wife or my girlfriend, and that's where I feel the closest to her, and that's where I feel like I'm able to express, you know, parts of me that I struggle to in the rest of the relationship. How do you think about that? Do you think that that's like— I don't know, like, what are your thoughts on that? Is that normal? Is that something that men should look at? You know, is it something that maybe women need to have a different context for? What are your thoughts?

I think it's very quote-unquote normal but common in the consciousness of our collective. But I think we're very multilayered in our expressions. So me personally, I feel connected when I'm having sex with my wife or making love with my wife. I feel connected to her when she's taking a keen interest in how I'm feeling, when she's supporting me with a problem that I may have, when she is asking me 'Hey, would you like me to make you something to eat?' Because, you know, like, just simple things. Like, I feel very— when we're walking on the beach, when she prioritizes and says, 'Hey, um, I'm gonna give— Athena's gonna be with Grandma, let's— you and I go for a walk.' Like, I feel very connected in all those different ways. And what I would encourage men to look into is their multi-layeredness. Like, we're multi- interest, multi-layered, multi-dimensional human beings. Like, I don't think we— you know, some people, sure, they just, they grow up, they want to be a firefighter, and they'd be a firefighter for 50 years, and then they retire. And like, I mean, there's nothing— no judgment on that, by the way. There's nothing wrong with that. That's, that's amazing. That level of stability and certainty and clarity that you have is great. And I just think we're very multi-talented beings. So, so I translate that to our relationships. Like, we need more than just— often more than one thing. And Often when we think we only need one thing from the relationship, it's because we're not really in deeper touch with the multifacetedness that lives within us. That's what I would initially say to that.

And now, outside of the complaint killer, what are, what are some of the other things that you've seen men do and deploy that start to shut down intimacy or erode the the strength of sexual connection?

Stonewalling, um, take— taking out their frustrations. You know, you mentioned covert contracts, um, earlier. Like, that's, that's sort of part of— like, if she's not, you know, you know, it's unspoken, right? Like, if she's not giving me sex, then I'm not going to give her the attention she wants. I'm not going to give her the thing that she wants, right? So that's a covert contract, right? Or I'm going to, I'm going to just work more. That's another thing. Like, when they're not able to ask for what they want and have meaningful conversations and communication with each other. And there's a lack of, you know, conscious communication, but really seeking to understand the other. And, you know, that's reciprocal. It's got to be reciprocated, otherwise it's, it's difficult. Then most men will pour themselves— so greater the pain, greater the pleasure required to mitigate the pain. They will go pour themselves into an area of life that validates them. If in their, in their singularly dimensional way of being, if they believe that the only way— and by the way, sexual intimacy is very important and it's an absolute pillar in relationship, in romantic partnership. So when it doesn't happen, it can be really difficult. And again, I know that experience personally. When they pour themselves into other areas where they're getting validated, it could be porn, it could be their work, it could be their kids, it could be an extramarital affair. They live in the shadows and that compounds. They develop more and more shame. There's more and more distance created. That woman feels more and more alone. She definitely— oh, my husband's paying attention to his work more than me. Yes, let me have sex with him. I'm so fucking horny now, and I'm so— I'm so wanting to be with him. No, that's definitely not going to happen. So we've got to be, you know, we've got to be— again, as our teachers share this, like, how close can we come to the truth? I could really, really get to the truth of what you want, what you need, what's happening for you. Just most men miss the mark on that because we're not taught. We're not taught how to express and how to emote healthily and how to not, you know, not vulnerability vomit but just how to communicate and how to ask for what we need because so many men don't know how to receive and their worthiness is also tied to what they give. And if they're giving and giving and it's not reciprocated, they don't seek to understand what that block is within them or within their partner, within the relationship. They go elsewhere. They're running away from the problem or they're running away from the issue.

How does a man start to confront his own sexual shame? Because I think, you know, I think what's interesting and I just want to create a little bit of context for this. I think what's interesting is when I look at the data for a lot of young men that are coming up, you know, they're growing up in today's culture. There's so many men that like have never approached a woman, have never asked a woman out, you know, haven't been sexually active in well over a year. And I think that a lot of young men are growing up not knowing how to communicate sexual desire, sexual wants, sexual needs. And there's a ton of shame around that. And then you have our generation and the one that came before us where maybe there's more sexual openness for some. But I think that there's still a lot of men. I mean, so many men I've worked with, there's just an intense amount of sexual shame around, you know, I want to try this role play. I want to do this power dynamic. I want I have sex in this specific location. And, I think guys end up in an attempt to avoid that shame, that's where they go to the, whatever it is, the porn, the cam girls, the OnlyFans, that type of stuff. So, how can a man start to address that shame that Hira has around his sexual fantasies or desire or just his sexual self?

Yeah, he can't run from them anymore. Like, his partner may not feel initially to be the safest place where he can bring that. Bring it to your men's group. You've got to be able to share what's on your heart. You've got to be able to share what's inside. Make the unknown known, right? Make the unconscious conscious. So it takes the perceived oomph and power out of it, or the perceived pain out of it. Bring, bring the fantasy to your men's group. Bring, bring that to a group of people, that could— to your therapist, to your coach, whatever, that can witness that so that you're not shamed for it. Now, of course, if you're bringing it to people that you don't trust, you don't respect, you don't revere, there's not, there's not agreements of safety.

And, and yeah, like, don't, don't tell your boss.

Yeah, I mean, don't tell your—

don't like dump that on your co-worker of like, so here's how I would like to fuck my wife. Sure. And I've been repressing this for a decade. You're like sitting there having lunch and, you know, Benihana or something like that.

Don't do that. Don't tell the bus driver.

Poor bus driver. The taxi— the Uber driver is just getting, you know, lit up with, uh, repressed sexual fantasies.

Yeah, that's exactly right. So I think that's just— that becomes a starting point, right, where you can be met in your fantasies and in your indulgence and in your thoughts and in your desires without shame. That doesn't mean that that person or the group of people can't question you and get curious about, okay, where does that come from? Like, what did— what does that really mean for you? Why is it that you want that? Why is that important to you? Why does it matter to you? And again, if they're asking a very— ideally, they're asking in a curious way, seeking to understand each other. It's a very relational thing. It's a healthily relational thing, seeking to understand them. They're not trying to have you defend your position or anything like that, or judging you. Just So the more you're able to do that and express that, it takes the pinch out of it. Now, eventually, after more self-reflection, more connection to yourself, really understanding the source of your desires and connecting to that and owning that, you can bring that to your wife or the partner. The problem, issue, problem, whatever the circumstance that most people project into it is, if I bring my absolute truth to this and I'm not wearing a mask, I might get rejected. I might be told no. I might be humiliated. I might be told that's silly or stupid by the person that I want to experience this with. Then what do I do? Or maybe the relationship ends, or maybe it's awkward, or maybe there's more judgment, or maybe she shames me more and we go back in the shame spiral. So we have to simultaneously work on our self-worth. So part of that, again, of course, is knowing your values, knowing who you are. We spoke about leadership earlier around owning your stuff. Like, the more you integrate all these parts that you've been running from, the more whole you feel, the more your worth naturally elevates, your self-esteem rises. And so how people behave and how they respond back to you, you realize not only do you cognitively know it, but you embody this as wisdom. Oh, that's a reflection of them. Like, I don't have to take that so personally. You don't have to be so defensive, right? And it's because you're more autonomous, you're more sovereign, you're more individuated, you're less codependent, more interdependent. All of that adds up. And then it's another conversation if they're like, whoa, you want that? No way. What's wrong with you? Like, let's say they're in judgment around it. You're in a better place to deal with that. But maybe they just say, oh, I love that you're sharing that with me. That is amazing. I never knew this about you. Hey, why didn't you tell me earlier? I don't know. That feels a little different for me. I'd have to sit with that. You know, like, at least you're in the conversation now. But again, it's less about how they respond and more about you being in your truth in a really healthy way.

Yeah, I remember. I think this is a good— like, this is a really important piece because I think— I mean, I'm thinking of, like, Brené Brown's quote of vulnerability must be earned. And you kind of do have to make sure that you're in the right context and the right relationship to be able to express and expose some of those things, especially you know, especially if they are things that you are— you feel embarrassed about or you feel ashamed about. And those things need to be taken seriously and often slowly. But which is kind of funny because I think for us as men, we like— we want to drop the nuke, you know, like we want to— we want to just— it's either we knock it out of the park and we go big or we just don't do it at all. And oftentimes it requires these like smaller incremental conversations. Can you set men up with something a little bit tactical in terms of, say, a man has shame around something that he wants to explore sexually? What can he specifically say to his significant other to start to express that? Because I think this is where guys get tripped up of like, I don't know how to even broach that subject. I don't even know how to fucking express that I have shame around that. So, I think twofold. One, can you set men up with some frameworks and some tools, maybe even some examples of what they could specifically say to have that conversation about what they're sexually ashamed of? And then what can men say? What, again, what framework could they use to say, hey, I want to explore X, Y, and Z. Here's what I'd like to go and experience with you, even if there isn't shame around it.

In the first part around expressing shame, there needs to be an established pattern and understanding of trust in the relationships. I think that's the first step, is do we trust each other enough to not shame each other through our expressions? And once that's really clear, man, the simplicity of it is, I've got something to share with you that's really big for me and I have some shame around sharing it. Just by saying those words, it immediately diffuses part of that. And then if your partner really welcomes that— oh, I'd love to hear that, I'd love to know more, I got you— then you move into the next piece, which is just be honest with the thing that you're holding shame about. So many men think they have to have a solution before they bring the expression, right? Before they bring the thing that they're ashamed about. They think they have to have their own solution to fix, quote unquote fix, or mitigate or resolve the shame or the pain. Not at all. You just got to share it. You don't have to do anything with it. That's, that's another thing that we just get so caught up in. It's like we receive new information as men usually, and we have to do something with it immediately. No, just let it settle in your nervous system. Let it settle in the dynamic. Let the thing just be there. You can also say to her, you know, I use— I like this framework: do I want to be hugged? Do I want to be heard? Do I want to be helped? Right? And she may ask you that as part of the agreement. Yeah. And you can say, I want all three. I just want one. I just want to be heard. That's it. And then nothing needs to be fixed in that moment. We rush, rush, rush. Just have the expression. You haven't said this thing that's been— you've probably been living with for like 3 or 4 decades. Just give it a minute to breathe. It's been trapped in the dark, right? So that's the first thing I would say.

I was going to use a cheese analogy, like an old, you know, stinky blue cheese just sitting in a cave somewhere.

You gotta let it breathe.

You gotta let it breathe, dude. Just open the cheese up.

Yeah, and don't eat it straight away. Just let it breathe. And you may not eat it.

Sex is like good cheese. I think there's lots Lots of good analogies there for good sex.

I'm sure there is. I'm sure there is. Yes. Yeah. So this is sort of like a part framework, part language. Um, but I just, I just don't think we need to fix things or change things immediately. Like, you've just let the cat out of the bag. You've just let this secret out that you've been holding on to. Let it just be there for a second. Don't have to do anything radically different. Just let it be. And again, to turn like, you know, that heard, helped, um, held framework, I think can go a long way. Now, for a man that is— see, for a man that doesn't necessarily believe in a relational context, or, you know, is the Lone Ranger, is doing it all himself, doesn't believe in getting help, doesn't believe in sharing his— like, any of this is going to be difficult. Like, I don't think we're speaking to that man. We're speaking to that individual that has greater self-awareness, that realizes life is relational, that there are some things that he's not going to, quote unquote, heal on his own or change completely on his own. He's going to need some support. And that's a good thing, right? We're speaking to that man. And so just know, if you've been holding on to something and harboring something for a very long time, giving it some airtime for the first time can be really difficult. So maybe you write that stuff out in a letter and you read it out loud to yourself while looking in the mirror, right? As a tool or a practice. Maybe you write that letter out and you read it to another man, right? Or another trusted, respected individual where the, the risk or the stakes aren't as high, at least in a perceived way, right? For getting feedback back or getting further shamed or judged or whatever. And so those are some practices that you could engage in as well.

What about the man who is struggling? Because, because here's what I'm trying to do. Okay. Just so I'm gonna let the listener in on the game. I'm trying to have us sort of like address all of the obstacles that get in the way, you know, of a man actually being able to have the type of sexual connection and intimacy that he wants in his relationship. And it's usually by addressing some of these things that the intimacy and the sexual connection really starts to deepen and unfold in the way that you want. The other thing that I see that I want to dive in with you is the more sexual addictive tendencies. So, I think we have the men that are more sexually repressed and shut down and they disconnect and they kind of I call it turning the dial off, you know, like they turn the taps off. So, they stay in the relationship but they do something where they kind of like dial the taps off sexually. And, it's not even that they're like watching porn or having an extra, you know, extramarital affair or anything like that. It's just that they start to shut that part of themselves off. And usually, as you're talking about, it's like that's where the shame comes in. What about the guy that is kind of out of control sexually and, you know, he's watching porn all the time, and obviously probably has some shame about that, and maybe paying for sex and stepping out of the relationship. What does that guy do? Because I think for that man, it's a bit precarious because he's like, well, I have shame about my behavior, but if I disclose everything that's happening, that might nuke the relationship. If I share how often I'm watching porn and jerking off and how much money I've spent on OnlyFans and blah, blah, blah, I don't know what that's going to do. And so I think those guys usually feel stuck and that creates this— it's like a Chinese finger trap and they just can't seem to get out of it. So what about that guy? Solve all of his problems, Steph. Solve all of his problems.

One swoop. Of the hand. Um, look, Sex Addicts Anonymous could be a great resource and one that's quite readily available. Again, I think like anything, it depends on the individuals and the people, right? But I think the frameworks there are very supportive. I value the frameworks of Alcoholics Anonymous. SAA is a derivative of that. Um, I think that could be helpful as a tool and as a practice, but ultimately, man, like any addiction, it's a, you know, I really appreciate what Gabor Maté says about this. Any addiction, I'm paraphrasing a little bit here, I don't want to bastardize his work, but it's a, it's a deeper seeking of, of connection. It's a longing for connection and being seen. It's having our basic human needs met. And also, we're attempting, often through sex, we're attempting to heal disconnection. We're attempting to heal unworthiness. And by having these peak experiences with another human being in quite a codependent way, like even if it's porn, even if you're looking at a screen, right? Like that peak experience is there's no rejection in pornography. It's all validation. You get to choose who you want. Like even that, it's giving us a false sense of I'm enough, I matter. This woman's hot and she's gorgeous and beautiful and all these things and I'm with her right now. The brain sort of doesn't know the distinction. It does, but it doesn't really, right? And so the same areas of our brains are firing. So that feedback is, is very similar. So it's an attempt to heal something that is unprocessed, that is unresolved, and that is deeply traumatized or painful within us. So we've got to get to the core of that. Like, if you have any addiction, you're reliant on something pulling you away from a reality that you're avoiding. It's control. It's a form of control. So I think we as men, as individuals, got to get to the core of that. It's not just dealing with, you know, surface-level way— and when I say surface, there's no negative connotation associated with that— but in a, in a what appears to be, you know, face-value way, let me just deal with the sex addiction. What's underneath that though? What's the source of that? Like, what is the, the unreal, unresolved, unprocessed wound that that is tethered to? So we've got to make a move to address that. And so again, that requires self-responsibility. We spoke about leadership before. You've got to take ownership of where you're at. Honest inventory. I'm fucking addicted to sex. I'm addicted to orgasm. I'm addicted to the honeymoon period. I'm addicted to being needed by women. Fucking own it. But you're going to struggle to own it because we can't see our own shit without relational reflection back at us. That's how we've evolved as humans. I'm a massive, massive believer in the study of social neuroscience and how we've evolved through each other, not just through the discovery of fire or psychotropic substances and eating cooked meat and all those things, and the development of our prefrontal cortex, but like how we've actually evolved in social circles. We need each other. I do really believe that's a fact. And so doing this on your own, being a lone ranger, you only get so far. But even the swami or the sage that goes and disappears into the mountains is under the tutelage of another human. Another master, right? There's a relate, and that— and he also has a relational context deeply to God, to nature, etc. I don't want to go down that philosophical rabbit hole, but we're relational beings. And so that is how I would respond initially to, to that, that, that man that is, you know, hiding in— maybe we'll call it excessive sex.

Yeah, it's almost like, what are you getting from that behavior or that outlet that you're actually needing from relationship.

Yeah. And from life and from yourself.

Totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Tell me, I'm going to— I want to close off with something that might be an interesting conversation. Is marriage worth it and is it dying? Because— and the reason why I say— the reason why I ask that, I'll give you some time to process. The reason why I say that is that, you know, we see the stats on how many marriages end in divorce. We see how many people— you know, you and I have talked to people before, whether it's a client or whatever, just people that we know, where you talk to them about the relationship that they're in, they sound fucking miserable, you know? And I think for the average guy, that maybe has been in a marriage before or hasn't been in one but would like to be in one, I think it can feel threatening at best. You know, like, there's not really a great presentation of ROI anymore on marriage. And I think what's interesting is that when you look at the stats now, there's a lot of young women that also don't want to get married either. It seems like the institution of marriage, which is, I think, challenging in some ways because what we know about human beings is that, like you're saying, attachment is sort of fundamental. Relationships are fundamental, and we need— family systems are extremely important. And I can't help but feel that if I could put my tinfoil hat on for a moment, which I will.

I love it.

I can't help but feel that there's a kind of systematic approach to try and dismantle the family system. And I think we've seen that happen in different parts of our culture and society. And now you even have people that are very loudly, quote unquote, family abolitionists. They see the family system as racist, as the bedrock of the patriarchy, as these things should be completely abolished. Right. And so So I, and I think for a lot of men, it's like, well, is the juice really worth the squeeze? Like, why would I go down that path? And so as a fellow man that is married, as a fellow man that, you know, I think knowing your past history and dating life and whatnot, how did you come to the choice of deciding to get married?

There's been a couple of times in my life where I've sort of sat at the precipice of, um, big choice, what feels like a really big fork in the road for me. And both of these— it's probably 3 times actually, but the last time, which I was in my mid-30s, I sat at this fork in the road. And the fork in the road for me was— and I think this is like a quintessential masculine question, right? It's like, essentially, do I be of the world and in the world, or do I remove myself? And what that looked like for me was literally getting a one-way ticket to India and just disappearing, right? And the last time I asked that, I wasn't in such pain, um, Well, let's— sorry, let me go back a little bit. There was two parts to that last part, two parts of that last time. The beginning of the journey, and I asked it again at the end of that, of that particular journey. At the beginning of the journey, I was in a lot of pain, and it was my way of escaping. But something sort of kept me in. And what— very, very briefly, I'd broken up with my partner at that time, and she had found out that I was extremely deceitful, lots of infidelity and all those things. And I just went down a rabbit hole of my own growth. I said, I just can't live like this anymore. It's just really— it was disruptive to me, it was disruptive to anyone I cared about. It was very painful. And I made the commitment to confront all of myself. And so I asked, like, do I want to do that? I just want to disappear. And something kept me— no, you know, if I— even if I do disappear, I want to stay here. I just want to stay. I want, I want to, I want to be in this world. I love this world, but I don't want to keep being how I'm being. So I went through that journey. I was years in that. Then it sort of, as I came out of that very tumultuous time of self-exploration, but beautiful and freeing, I asked that question again. And I, and I said to myself, it came very clearly up in a meditation, I believe, because I value growth, man. Growth is the, the greatest— it is why we're here as humans. I believe and felt that I would get the most growth particularly from intimate relationship, sacred union, being in marriage if you want to call it that. Like, just being— and I gave this a lot of thought and a lot of contemplation, like, what's really going to bring me to my edge and help me grow and then contribute to the world and add value to everything I touch? And my conclusion was— it wasn't just a logical conclusion, it was like a really felt experience, a felt sense of this truth— was that. And that's how I arrived at that. And so then I opened to that, and, you know, very, very soon thereafter I met Christine, and we knew what we knew, we felt what we felt, and we proceeded. And so, you know, if I go back to your original question around um, is it dead? Is marriage dead? And, um, is it worth it? I think it was two questions, correct? Yeah, I think it depends on who you are. I, I think the, the answer is marriage dead, I think, is yes and no. Yes in the sense that I believe as a greater collective we're awakening, and this isn't applicable to everyone of course, but we're awakening to marriage or union or commitment being done in a more empowered way, in a more equitable way, in a more conscious way. And that can look a little different for everyone, but the come from, the intention, the clarity of your come from really matters. And then I don't think it's dying at the same time because I don't think people want to change, man. Where I see collective consciousness, people don't want to change. People don't want to do the hard work. People don't— I was in that boat for a long time. I still am. I still have moments of that where I'm like, you've heard me, man. Like, I'll just fucking own it here. Like, I don't want to talk about shit today. I don't want to— I have micro moments of that. Macro though, I know the path that I'm on, but I have many micro moments where I can't be fucked, I'm lazy, or I just don't— I'm not in the mood. I don't want to— I don't want to see the thing that I want. I don't want to look at it. I've got too much shame around it, or I'm just, you know, whatever. So I don't think people really want to change, man, and people would just rather be in their misery. And I can attest to that as well. Is the juice worth the squeeze? Yes, if— yes, if— no, if— yes, if you are willing to look at what the mirror of relationship and that level of commitment and intimacy and freedom, by the way, because there's deep freedom in that commitment, can give you. And no, it's not worth the squeeze if you're going to do shit unconsciously and you're just going to hope for the best and shoot in the dark. So I think the answer to both your questions is yes and no, yes and no. Hopefully I've given more context around what each one is.

That's great. No, I love that. I love the yes if and the no if. I think that's, that's very applicable. I appreciate you, man. Tell, uh, tell the good folks at home about Tuned In and Turned On. Where can they find it? What can they expect?

Yeah, thanks, man. I appreciate— well, obviously appreciate you having me on here and I love talking to you. I love our discussions. I value your intelligence and wisdom so much, man. And you're— I mean, you're great at what you do in this sense here. I mean, you're great at all the other things that you do, because I know that. But this here is— I've done a lot of podcast interviews, so I think I'm somewhat of an expert.

It was the— it was the cheese joke, wasn't it? It was the cheese.

That's what got you. So witty. Tunedinandturnedonbook.com. And if you order it through there, you can order it through Amazon in your region, all of that, all those good things. You'll get a stack of bonuses that are still available right now. So I suggest you just order it through there because you'll get all those bonuses. tunedinandturnedonbook.com. And then you can find me on social media @StefanosSifandos.

Beauty.

Beauty.

Well, this definitely might be one of those episodes that you want to listen to with your significant other. We're with your men's group. And so don't forget to man it forward, share it with somebody that you know will enjoy it. And as always, until next week, this is Connor Beaton signing off.