The Crisis Facing Young Men with Josh Fryday

All right, Josh, welcome to the Man Talk Show. How you doing today?

I'm good, man. I'm good. Thanks for having me.

You bet. You bet. Well, let's start with the million dollar question. What is happening with young men in America? Maybe California specifically, but I think just young men in America, what's going on?

Yeah, I think broadly we're seeing a crisis of what we call a crisis of connection, where young men specifically just sort of feel untethered and. And disconnected in a variety of ways, disconnected from school, disconnected from the labor workforce, disconnected from each other, their communities. And we're seeing that play out in some really consequential and negative ways, and it's concerning to us.

Yeah, I was looking up some of the data leading up to this because, I mean, every state's a little bit specific, but there's a broader challenge within the states and Canada as well. I'm originally Canadian, my transplant. But, you know, like, there's. There's roughly half a million Californians specifically, you know, 16 to 24, that are neither in school or working. And the majority of those people are actually men. And that means that there's like, you know, 10%, it's like roughly 10% of. Of individuals between 16 and 24 aren't in school and aren't employ and are not employed, and that's disproportionately men. And so how do feel this crisis of connection plays into young men specifically, really checking out of work, checking out of school? Like, what's happening there? What's the disconnect?

Oh, I think there's obviously a direct connection, and it's really scary to us. And it's. And we're seeing the consequences of the reality you just described, where right now there's a half a million young people in California, mostly men, as you said, between 16, 24, who are not in school, they're not working, they're just untethered. And so they're not on a path. They're not on a path of opportunity, a path of purpose. And then what we see is that play out in very negative ways. So in California, for instance, young men are four times more likely to commit suicide than young women. They're less likely to go to college. They're more likely to be unemployed here. And right now, we know across the country, one in six young men under the age of 30 describe having no close friends. And so we see. We do see this untethering and we see this. This reality where young, young men are just not. They're not connected to anyone. And that is so unhealthy. And it's like, it's anti human to think to not be connected to your community or not to feel connected human beings. And so it's, it's. I think we're seeing this why we have a mental health crisis in our country, especially with young people. And, and we're seeing it play out just in, in, in a way that we think about as a crisis here in California.

And is it, is it mainly like teens, Is it mainly teen boys or is it really like, are you, are you seeing young men, 20 to 30s that are also having this issue?

No, I think it's across the board. You know, I think it starts to play out in, in teens is where you start to see early signs of it. But no, this is, this is certainly across the board. And you know, and when you have, when you have young men in their 20s, heading into their 30s, who don't have friends, who aren't gainfully employed, who are not in school and, and are not. And we know this from, from books like Bowling Alone, right. There's been a trend over the last couple decades and of people not joining organizations. So you're not, you know, you're not part of a hunting club, you're not part of the Rotary anymore, you're not part of a civic organization. Without that structure, without being engaged in a formal structure, I think people are lost. And I think, you know, and again, it's like, it's anti human. It's not healthy for us. And so people are suffering. And what we're trying to figure out in California, the reason that we launched a men's service challenge is because we want to turn that suffering into strength and we want to send a different message, that there's actually a real place of purpose and of need for our men in our society.

Yeah, I'm curious about how much of this is about, you know, economics, jobs, wages, career pathways versus this psychology. Like, and when I say that, not necessarily about the program, which I think we're going to get to in a moment, but what young men are facing, because I think I hear a lot. I mean, I read all the comments on my YouTube channel, which, you know, maybe to my own detriment sometimes, you know, on, on my podcast and stuff like that. Yeah, right. She's like, the card is like, don't read the comments. But I do. And because I want to see what, what men have to say. And some of it really is about, you know, feeling disconnected, feeling disincentivized. I think sometimes, you know, I, I hear a lot of men talking about feeling like they're living in a culture, in an environment that sees them as the enemy, you know, and, and kind of views young men, and men specifically as, as the problem. It's like. And I've heard Chris Williamson and Scott Galloway sort of couch it like this, you know, which I think is great, which is like, men are seen as being the problem, not as having problems. And so I, I do think that there's this sort of psychological, cultural factor, but then I think that there's the other piece, which is, you know, economic. Getting the job, getting the education. So how do you think that those things play into it in terms of helping young men to get the job, to get on their feet, to find an ability to contribute, and what might that do for them, you know, psychologically?

Yeah, well, I, I think we're in a time right now, and this is why these issues maybe are coming to a head and so acute, where there's a confluence of drastically changing realities, cultural realities and economic realities. And that confluence has created this situation where I think a lot of people don't know what their role is in society, don't know what their purpose is, don't know what value they add. And I read this, one of the most interesting articles I've read in the last decade or more that really influences my thinking and work, was actually written by the Dalai Lama, and he wrote it the weekend before the election in 2016. So this was right. This is Hillary Clinton versus Donald Trump. And it was heading into. So we didn't know the election results were. But he asked this question, he said, why, in the. In the most materially successful countries in the history of civilization, Britain and the US There was so much anxiety. And he talked about, you know, Britain, England had just come out of Brexit, we were heading into the election of 2016. There's all this political and social anxiety. And he basically boiled it down to, at the end of the day, as human beings, we just want to feel needed and we want to feel like our community values us. And so when you ask the question about, you know, is this psychological, is this economic? To me, I think they're. They're so intertwined because often a job and your economic role in society and has everything to do with your. How you feel needed, how you think your community needs you in order to provide, in order to create things, in order to produce, in order to protect whatever that job may be. So in a. As our economy changes drastically and evolves and people feel uprooted. And then as some of the cultural norms that you talked about, and us trying to figure out what is the appropriate place for men and what is their role, I think. I think it's that combination that has us where we are right now, which is also we see as an opportunity. Because now we need to say, okay, how do we define roles and how do we create places and point out and highlight areas where men are needed? And let's be clear about where they are, and then let's really try to drive people towards those opportunities.

So why is. Why is this important? Because it feels like, I think a lot of men, when they hear the cultural conversation around men in decline, what's happening, I think for a lot of guys, they feel like, oh, I'm being blamed. This is my fault. I caused this, you know, and now I got to dig myself. It's like, pull yourself up by the bootstraps. Dig yourself out of this hole. What's your take on that?

Well, my take is, is that people and men are looking for ways to contribute, to do something positive. And they're just. Those opportunities don't exist at scale, and that's not their fault. That's on us. We've created a society where people aren't given the chance to contribute in positive ways. We haven't set out that clear vision, and that's what we're trying to invest in in California, but we're just scratching the surface. This is a cultural shift that we need to push around the country to make sure that we're actually investing in the opportunities for people to contribute, to give back, and to. To know that they're a part of a broader community.

Yeah, I think it's. I think it's interesting because it does seem like young men are kind of being repelled from institutions, whether we, you know, I think there's a whole debate about whether that's intentional or unintentional, which we don't necessarily need to go down. But. But truly, I think when you look at, you know, school systems, you look at higher education, college, university, helping professions, mental health systems, community organizations, those. Those are generally not the place that a lot of young men say that they want to go. And so I'm curious as to your thoughts in terms of, like, why are so many men, young men, and, you know, older men, repelled from institutions? And what do you think would actually help for them to feel more welcomed?

Yeah, it's absolutely the case. I have three sons, so I think about this a lot. And I see it as well. And Scott Galloway talks about some of this with regard to the health professions and education, which is you can't be what you can't see. So in California, three quarters of our teachers are female. It's uncommon to see a male teacher in the lower grades. And so if you're a young boy coming up through the education system and you never see that there's male teachers in the classroom, it's hard to imagine you becoming that. And then it creates a cycle where then you don't become a teacher and then young boys don't see males in the classroom. So some of this, we've kind of found ourselves in this cycle. And so I think it's one of the reasons we've launched an effort to try to recruit men to the classroom in California, to call in men and say, we need you in the classroom so that you can be seen. So I think that that's part of it. And then I also think, and this is just a kind of a broader bias that I have is I think we've created a society that just doesn't value service anymore. And what I mean by that is, after 9, 11, less than 1% of us have served in the military. We stopped asking people to serve in the military, stop asking people to sacrifice. We see drastic decline of people in service organizations across the country and in civic organizations. And I think professions like teaching and firefighting and some of these other areas where we want people to go into have become undervalued. And so that's a challenge. And I think that's one of the things we have to fight against.

Yeah, I think to just sort of dovetail off of that. I hear a lot of men sort of talking about being of service and then not, not necessarily having that be recognized, you know, appreciated, valued anymore. It almost seems like we've devalued the service and the work that is happening in some of these fields. And I. So I think for a lot of men there's a kind of frustration of like, well, why? You know, I think there's a multitude of frustrations, right? It's like, why would I go do that if society and culture is telling me that that's not valuable? Why would I go do that if maybe it's not going to give me the, you know, the big living wage or, or the sort of like middle class, quote, unquote, American dream that, that it was promised to me before. And so I think there's a. I think there's a bunch of things that are playing into that. And it's, it's interesting because as a, as a transplant in the country, you know, I married an American, and, you know, I'm here, you know, fully, legally, just for all those listening.

Clarified.

I know, I know. Like, after the last election, my parents were like, are you. Are you concerned about getting deported? And I was like, no, I'm, I'm okay. Like, I think I'm all right on many fronts. For many reasons. I'm. I'm okay. But it's interesting to be in the country and kind of watch what happens politically, because it does feel like there's this kind of tug of war and this huge separation that's happened between men and women in, in voting. And I think this was something that happened in the, in the last election that I've talked about on my show a couple times of, you know, how this huge divide has happened between men and women in American politics. And, you know, I think that that has a lot of ramifications. And I'm curious from somebody that's, you know, in the, the Democratic Party that's like, you know, instituting some of these things, how do you guys view that? Like, how do you view why so many men have vacated the left? Is it just a. Is it, like, a lack of vision? Is it a lack of connection? Is it a lack of, like, here's where your role is, or, you know, here's. We want you in the party? Like, I'm. I'm curious to get your thoughts on that. Maybe not. It's not something that you necessarily speak to, but I was curious anyway.

No, it's something I think about a lot. It's one of the first conversations I had with Governor Newsom right after the election, where we realized what you just described, which is we just lost an entire generation of young men to Donald Trump in this election. And so there's huge political ramifications for everything that we're talking about, and we're seeing it play out. So the Democratic Party has to face this. And part of it, I think, is we stop talking about to men and stop thinking that we needed to have a conversation, which is why I so appreciate you and this opportunity, because I think we just have to talk openly about some of the issues that men are facing and have a conversation about. When we help men, we help everybody. Since we started this work, some of the people that I hear the most from, you might find this interesting. And the people that are most excited about the work that we're doing now are moms and grandmas. Because they see what's happening to their sons and grandsons. And so I think what we need to do is have a conversation that when we address these issues head on, we actually help everybody and we help our entire society and we help our country to be stronger. And so politically we have to address this. The answer question, why? It's hugely complicated. I think we, you know, I think we as a party haven't, you know, haven't fully reconciled what happened with globalization and how it upended several economies throughout our country and the, and the impacts of that. And we never fully addressed that. And, you know, people, as you described, are frustrated as hell by it and they should be, they should be upset by it. And we haven't addressed, okay, well, what is the answer moving forward? Where do we go? How do we, how do we create opportunity? So that's, that's what. Something that we have to do. But, yeah, no, we think about the political ramifications of this because they're real in a big way.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but did you guys work with Richard Reeves on the, on this program?

We are, yeah, absolutely. Very closely, yeah. Cool.

Yeah. Tell me a little bit about why you started with, with creating a program around incentivizing men to be of service and community. Because there's, you know, I've had Richard on the show before. We've talked about some of the things that we could do to support men, because again, I mean, I don't need to sort of bang on this drum. I've talked about it a whole bunch. But, like, men are really in decline in pretty much every category that we can measure socially and culturally and economically that we like. They really are in decline. It's shocking when you really look at the data. And there's a multitude of things that we could do to approach that. Right. Richard Reeves talked about red shirting boys, holding them back and entering them into school a little bit later because, you know, developmentally they develop slower. Why did you guys start with service out of the sort of, you know, myriad of things that you could have done?

In part informed by Richard's work and also other studies that have come out of Harvard talking about how do we deal with the youth mental health crisis in our country? And what Harvard concluded and what Richard talks about, and we've talked, had many conversations about is a need to give people a sense of purpose in life and how a lack of purpose can lead any human being down a really dark path and a really lonely path. And so as we looked in the aggregate, and saw that there was. Across the data and all the negative consequences, and we saw that there was this crisis of loneliness, the crisis of connection. We asked the question, well, how do we give people purpose? And I'll just speak for myself personally, but service is how I found my purpose in life. I had a chance when I was 17, very young, very formative age, to go do a service program where I lived for a summer in the Dominican Republic, working on building latrines, building an aqueduct for a community that didn't have running water. And it was the most influential and formative time of my life. And because it gave me purpose, it gave me connection. And then I had a chance to serve in the military and be part of something bigger, bigger than myself. And. And so service has given me purpose throughout my life. I think it's given the governor a lot of purpose, and he. And he sees it as well. So I think we. We started with. Given the crisis that we have, with all the. In all the, you know, across all the different data points that. That you've referenced, what. How can we start to address this? And if we can. If we can give more people, especially men, a sense of purpose, we think one, we could start to make a difference. And then the other answer to this is there's just a huge need. I mean, it's really sad what's going on right now. We've partnered with organizations like Big Brothers, Big Sisters, and for. For all intents and purposes, it should just be called Big Sisters right now, because men are simply not stepping up to be big Brothers. And so. So we have these. Or, you know, we have long wait lists all across our state of young boys who desperately need a role model. They need. They need someone to love them, someone to guide them, someone to. To help them, mentor them. And men aren't stepping up to do it. And that's a problem. That's why we call this a challenge. Like we are challenging men to step up and send a very powerful, we think and clear message that we actually need you. So we thought that if we could help create a sense of purpose, help send a clear message that California and your communities need you, that we could both help those. Help older men who are looking for that connection, but then also start to mentor and guide the next generation as well.

Nice. Nice. Well, I feel like there's many different pathways that we could go down. I don't normally talk about politics on my show. I try to keep it politics free because it's usually insane. So kudos to Any kudos to anybody that's in it? Because it's not. That ain't it for me. But so.

And this shouldn't be political, but to your point, this should not be political. And so forgive me if I, if I made it political, but this is about. This is about making our society and our community stronger. And we have to address this. That's why. That's why we're doing it.

Well, I think that that's the unfortunate thing is that the extremism and the polarization that I see in politics now is such that even these types of programs, I think, are just going to be met with a natural predisposition or predilection towards some type of narrative or story, you know, of like, oh, you're just doing that to try and solve the male voter problem that the left has. And I think that's unfortunate. You know, I think that that's unfortunate that that's. It feels like that's the state of politics in the states, you know, which I think is. Is terrible because there, there needs to be some type of unification and, you know, goodwill or whatever we want to. However you want to call that.

Which is another reason. Yeah, I'm sorry, interrupt. Which is another reason we started with service, because service is actually. And this again, in my experience in the military is actually a really powerful way to bring people together of people of different backgrounds, of different perspectives, people who vote differently when you have a common mission, when you have a common purpose with other people. But the challenges right now in our society, I mean, name an example where people have the chance to come together outside of the military and work with people of different backgrounds around accomplishing something, around solving problems, around doing something positive. We just don't, we don't create that. We haven't created that infrastructure. We just don't have those opportunities anymore. And that's a huge part of why we've invested in service for that very reason, to try to get to the root of the fact that we're not even talking to each other anymore. But if we start to maybe work together and help each other and serve each other, then maybe we can start to get down a more sustainable path.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's interesting because I even, you know, like, when you and your team reached out, I even had that, like, I don't know, like, this is in the realm of politics. I was like, I don't even know if I want to freaking touch this. But, but you're doing something for men, and that's What I really give a about, that's what I actually just care about. And I think that that's more important than anything else. I mean, not anything else, but it's, you know, it's incredibly important to me because I get the emails, I get the DMs from the guys that are struggling, that are, you know, thinking about giving up. You know, they come into our work and our organization and they genuinely need help. And so I, I see it every single day and, and you know, I think in large part I see what I do as service and that has given me an immense amount of purpose and mission and I've done the, you know, go down and help build schools and stuff like that. So, so let's, let's talk about what the actual challenge calls for, because I think this is, this is the fun part. Right. So it calls on 10,000 men to mentor, coach, tutor. What's the kind of model that you, that you're betting on in terms of, Is it one to one mentoring? Is it group mentoring? Is it coaching inside of sports? Like what's where, where's the service actually happening? Just give us a rundown.

Sure. So the benefit of, I think how we're creating this is that there's several different models and what we want to say is that there's really an opportunity for everyone to engage and step up in a big way. And you could do that by becoming a coach where you're showing up twice a week and you're having a regular connection with a group of young boys and you're helping them in a sport or some other activity. Or it could be as a one on one mentor and it could be showing up occasionally. So, but the idea is, is that that through these models you're having a direct connection with somebody else and that you are taking responsibility for that person's well being. I think that's a huge part of what's missing in our society right now is not giving people a sense of responsibility and a sense of accountability. And what, so when you become a mentor, you are now responsible for that person, you are now accountable to that person, which then makes you, makes you accountable to yourself. You have to show up, you have to be together, you have to, you have to be ready to love somebody else and guide somebody else. And that, you know, and that's, that takes work and commitment and dedication. And so what our hope is, is by challenging men to step up and serve in these positions is that they're going to able to start to create these connections that are Good for them. We really want it to be healthy and good and positive for them. And it's good for the next generation. But it's because of those relationships that get created, those connections that get created. And then what I really hope this is what I think in some ways is the most important part of this whole thing is I hope that the men who DM you and write you and who are struggling and suffering and they're not alone. There's a lot of us who are. I hope what they hear from this, from this challenge that we've created in this program is you are really needed. There is a long list of young people out there who need your help. And you have something to offer. And you may not know it, you may not think it, but we are telling you you are needed. And we're going to create the opportunity as a coach or as a mentor with one of our organizations for you to step up and fill that need. And people in our society don't hear that they're needed. I don't think as much. And it's not about going to make money and it's not about glory. It's about knowing that your community and somebody actually needs you. That's the message we're trying to send to people.

And so what's the service? Part of it is men mentoring the younger generation. Are they doing something specific in terms of community support? And then what can, you know, what does success look like within the sort of first, like, I don't know, 90 days? Let's just say for a young man that's involved, what can, what can they expect to see?

Yeah. So again, the way we've structured it is you get a chance to plug into different kinds of organizations. So everywhere from Big Brothers, Big Sisters, you can be a big Brother, to after school programs as a tutor, as a mentor, or to be a coach. We've partnered with the San Francisco Giants Community foundation who are looking for baseball coaches. And we're teaming up with other sports programs across the state that desperately need youth coaches. We have a huge shortage of youth coaches in our society. And so again, as example is like there's an actual real need for you to step up. And so the idea is that once we get you plugged in, in the first 90 days, what we hope you would do is one, establish a relationship and establish sort of a routine of showing up and stepping up for someone else. And then what we hope in the first 90 days is you experience. Connor, what you described about your experience on this show, which is that it gives you an enormous sense of self satisfaction, and it gives you an enormous sense of meaning. And you realize that when you actually step up to help somebody else, you're not just helping somebody else, you're actually doing something that in some ways is very selfish. But that's okay. We want it to be selfish. Like, that's a good thing. Martin Luther King had this great quote, it's one of my favorites. He gave in a sermon a few months before he was killed called the Drum Major Instinct. And he says, you know, all of us have in us this drum major instinct, which is this instinct to want to be ahead and want to be seen. Right? You're in the. You're in the head of the. Of the band, and everyone sees you because you're out there in front and you're. You're celebrated. We all, we all want that. We all need that. And he says, that's okay. That's a good thing. Like, like embrace that, that. That that's in us as human beings. And make sure you want that you are seen and respected for your service to others. That by serving others, that's how you. That's how you meet that drum major instinct. That's how you feel. That's how you get to be seen by your community as someone who is valued and respected. And I believe that. That's my experience. And so what we hope is, is that, that anyone out there who's looking to be seen as great, and Martin Luther King said anybody can be great because everybody can serve, that there's men out there who want to be great and they want to be great by serving.

Yeah, I love that. I love that. I mean, we have. We've got a community with almost a thousand guys in it now. And it's been really interesting because we, we started it during the pandemic because I just saw so many guys stuck at home. You know, things weren't going well, and so we started this community. And then, you know, it's really grown into something. And we have these small teams that are a part of it, and they're member led. And so some men will volunteer to just like, lead the team. And it's incredible how dedicated they are, how committed they are to being of service to other men, which I think is incredible. I think what you guys are doing is interesting. I'm curious about the. The balance between helping boys and, and helping to develop men. Right? It sounds like you have men coming in that are supporting. Are you. Are you aiming to grow both sides? Like, is it. Is it more about developing and fostering the young men of the future into developing into men? Or is it this sort of reciprocal dynamic that you're hoping to get?

I think it's one of the massive benefits of service, and what we're doing is that it's reciprocal, and that's our hope. You know, I think. You know, I think. I think a huge part of helping men, and especially young men now, is actually the development. It's why the mentorship is so critical. It's why we need more men to step up, to be mentors and to. And to provide these connections, because there's not, you know, and this is part of going back to how we started this conversation, why it's so dangerous that young men are disconnected. Why? Because they're untethered. Because. Because that means they're not developing. No one's helping them develop, and it's not their fault. We, you know, if you graduate high school and college may not be for you, which, by the way, most Americans don't go to college, and. And it's unclear what. What your job pathway is, and then you find yourself without a job, without school, without a civic organization that you're attached to, you're not serving in the military, and you don't have close friends. You're lost. How do you develop? So part of what we think about is that by creating an opportunity for these mentorship programs, these coaching programs and service opportunities, that is very much reciprocal, but we're helping young men develop as well along the way, which is a critical, huge part. I mean, one of the things I think about is in our society, last year, my son was bar mitzvah. It was a wonderful experience in large part because he had to do a lot of hard work, and it was really challenging. And he had to do a service program. And what it kind of sort of reinforced for me is that we live in a society that just does not have a lot of rituals for young people. What rite of passage, besides graduating high school, do we expect of anyone anymore? We don't. And I think that stunts development and that stunts what people are looking for in terms of wanting to feel needed by their community. And so part of what we're doing by focusing on service and building out these programs in California is to create that challenging experience where you. Where you can be challenged, you can do something hard, and then when you do it, then you now have the confidence that you can overcome hard things. And that's such an important part of, I think, developing.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I. I have talked about this in the past and heard other people talk about it as well, that, you know, one in four kids in America are going to grow up without a father figure in the household. And when you look at the data, it disproportionately affects young men. And it's like it really is an absence of modeling in a lot of ways. And so like when you take dad out of the household and then you go to school and you don't see like a lot of male role models and teachers and then maybe you go through some type of like therapy again, that's 75 to 80% female. And so, you know, you can kind of go through these institutions and you know, your upbringing without having any real modeling. And I think that that's a, it's a huge, huge vacancy. What? Yeah, what, what do you say to the men who hear this and like, okay, that's interesting. I feel like I'm just trying to get my own shit together. I'm just trying to make a living for myself. You know, I'm busy. What does it look like? How can they support.

Yeah, I think what it looks like is you, you, you can still make a difference with somebody else. And if you do, it'll actually help you. I think that's the message we want to send, that it's beneficial for you personally. You'll be happier. We know from all the research across the board that those who volunteer and serve are happier and you're physically healthier. There's actually a physical element to this as well. So if you're just trying to get your shit together and your own well being, what we want to send a message is that by volunteering and serving in your community, that's a huge part of getting your act together. And it's a huge part about being a man. I mean, I think one of the things, and I've found this, I'll be vulnerable because I told you I had three sons earlier. I sort of recognize that I hadn't sat down with them to be like, here's what it means to be a man. And we don't have those conversations. And I think part of those, I think part of that conversation and what I say to my boys now is it's about responsibility and responsibility for yourself, which is why you got to get your shit together. It's responsibility for your family and then it's a responsibility to your community. That's the, that in my mind and I'm sure there's many other layers I'm leaving out and that's overly simplistic. But the point is, is that there's a. There, there's. We have to be explicit, I think, about what it means to be a man and that. And it's multi layered and you just gabbing a job and just looking out for yourself is not actually the entirety of what it means to be a man. And I think we should say that out loud and to. Cause I think if we say that out loud and then we go actually invest in creating the infrastructure and the opportunities for people to be engaged in their communities in different ways, everyone's going to find themselves much happier.

Yeah. Yeah, I think, I think that's good. I mean, I think, you know, young men need a vision for what they can become. And sometimes that's modeled, sometimes that's transmitted. You know, sometimes it's a narrative. But, but we all need a kind of vision of like, here's who you could become as a man. And I think when that's absent, and I think this is like, candidly, I think this is part of the issue that, that, you know, we've seen show up politically. I think one of the big reasons why so many men vacated the, the left, from my perspective as somebody that can't vote in America. So I'm just going to say that. But from my perspective, I'll share it anyway because my show, I get to do that. I, I think that the left really lost a vision of what it means to be a man. And any type of vision of who you could become, it was, you know, I feel like there was just sort of like a laundry list of here's all the things that you shouldn't do, here's all the ways that you shouldn't act, here's all the ways that you shouldn't behave. But that doesn't give any direction. It just says, don't be like this, don't be like that person. Don't behave in this way. But that doesn't give a young boy, a young man, a man in general, a direction of like, oh yeah, this is the direction that I can move towards. And I think, I think you guys are onto something with the service. You know, I think Richard Reeves is incredibly smart. He knows the data, he knows the research. And I have seen, you know, I've seen service really transform men's lives. Truly just being of service to something greater than themselves can be really, really massive. And so how. Last couple of questions. How is this being funded? Because there's a, there's, I think there's like a $5 million investment into this. Are there, are there, like, paid roles? Do men get paid for this? Is it purely volunteer? I'm assuming that there's lots of logistics in terms of getting it coordinated, but what does that all look like?

Yeah, well, we believe so much in service in California that the governor and the legislature have invested significantly over the last few years. So when the governor created a cabinet level position, which I now have, we started creating these service programs that are paid positions to give people the opportunity to serve in their community and either have a job or help them pay for school or towards a vocational certificate. And so these programs are funded right now by the state. We have $5 million dedicated specifically towards the men's service challenge. But we have the broader California Service corps, which right now is bigger than the Peace Corps, is funded by the state. And so that's one example. And then we have lots of partnerships with different organizations where there's volunteer opportunities where again, you don't have to sign up for a year, you can sign up for an hour a week or an hour a month, and you can still make a difference. So there's lots of different opportunities. And right now we didn't get into this mess overnight, and we're not going to get out of it overnight. So what we are trying to do right now in California is lay the foundation of that civic infrastructure that I think is so critical to starting to address these. And one of the things that Richard Reeves writes about and talks about that I find very powerful is that men, for whatever reason, and we don't know the reason, for whatever reason, need structure in order to build relationships, in order to build friendships. Like, we don't. We're not good. If you and I saw each other at a park, we wouldn't be good at just walking up to each other and saying hello and then becoming, you know, exchanging phone numbers and becoming friends, fast friends. But if we were in the Boy Scouts together, or we were on a basketball team together, or we served in the military together, then we would have. We'd have that structure that's helpful for creating intimate relationships that I think people are desperately looking for right now. So part of it is how do we build that infrastructure? And that's what we're doing in California right now in a really, I think, compelling and exciting way.

Yeah, I think men develop friendships in many ways, but I think one of the main ones is through competency building. You know, it's like as we develop competency alongside one another, whether it's through a sport or A skill acquisition or we're, you know, creating something as we develop competency with one another and we kind of test one another and challenge one another and encourage one another and support one of the one another. It's like that really, I've seen that really form meaningful relationships amongst men. And, and I think to your point, we've collapsed a lot of the infrastructure where young boys and teens and young men would gather to develop competencies. You know, I remember going to Boy Scouts as a young, young kid, and I mean, I love that, you know, and I, I remember, I mean, my son is like, he's four and a half right now, and he's in that stage where he wants to do everything with me. He wants me to teach him how to cut the zucchini and chop the wood and start the fire and, you know, build the tent, like everything. And that is this huge bonding thing between, you know, him and I. And I think that's true for a lot of men. And we've, you know, we've sort of, sort of carved out and stripped out those places. One follow up on that. Can, can a man go and, and do this program and develop some competency that's going to help him in the marketplace to actually have some level of market mobility that would make him more employable or be able to move up within his ecosystem?

Yeah, absolutely. Great question. And it's one of the things that we're trying to hone in on and explore. But yeah, what we're seeing from our service programs is that those who go through it are actually building the soft skills that employers now tell us are the hard skills of this economy. Right. So everything from can you show up on time, can you look people in the eye to can you communicate, can you work in a team, can you be flexible? These are things that employers are telling us are the skills that they most look for and also are sometimes the lowest of supply. And that when they see people come out of our service programs who gain those interpersonal skills, that they're really helpful in the marketplace. So it's one area where we do see that there's an advantage. And then I just think when you. Again, back to my experience serving and being in the military, you come out with your back a little straighter, right. Your shoulders are a little stronger, you hold your head a little higher. There's a confidence that you can do things and you can do hard things, because helping somebody is hard and showing up for somebody else can be difficult and can be challenging. And if you can prove that you can do that day in and day out. Then you, I think, prove to an employer that you're responsible, you're accountable and you can deliver. And that's. So we are seeing that and hearing that from other employers. And then there's, of course there's hard skills you build along the way. We have a lot of pro programs focused on learning how to use a chainsaw, getting certificates and fire mitigation and, and that can work. Exactly. So a lot of plaid going on. So. Yes. So there's, there are a lot of skills that, that come along the way and it's one of the reasons why we need to keep investing in these kinds of programs and in this kind of work.

I fundamentally believe that if you wear plaid or anything Carhartt related, you need to know how to operate an axe, a chainsaw, a bobcat, although I think you guys call them skid steers down here.

All at the same time, right?

All at the same time. Right. Just like, just chaos. There's a meme out there somewhere. Well, let's maybe, let's wrap up, Josh with a couple personal questions because you are a dad and I'm just curious to get your thoughts. What are a few things that you are worried about for the future of your sons? Because I look at the world right now, I think about my four and a half year old son, I have a 60 month year old daughter. But you know, I think about the world for my son and it feels much more challenging what I'm, you know, raising him to enter into. And so I'm curious, like what do you worry about in terms of the future for your boys, for your sons?

Yeah, I worry a lot. There's a. We have a lot of challenges. I think what I worry about for them personally is that it won't be clear what their role is in society. I think that's a huge challenge we have right now. I think that's going to be potentially compounded by AI and continued technological change where, where people, including my sons are going to, you know, wonder what their role is and how do they, how do they play that role? I had this quick, I'll make this quick. But I had this incredible experience when I was in the military, where I was in Japan on a Friday afternoon when a 9.0 earthquake hit and it led to a tsunami that instantly killed tens of thousands of people, displaced hundreds of thousands of people. And because I was on the base that had the nuclear aircraft carrier, we started to detect in a few days radiation from a place called Fukushima. The Fukushima nuclear plant was melting down. And my captain called me in her office, and she said, you have three hours, Lieutenant, to get down to Okinawa and join the admiral that was going to oversee the whole humanitarian aid and disaster relief effort, which ended up becoming one of the largest in military history called Operation Tomodachi, which means friend. And for me, the experience was so meaningful, not because I was the hero, quite the opposite. I played a tiny role, but it's because of what I learned about how you get through a crisis. And in order to get through a crisis, everybody has a role to play, and everyone has to actually play that role. And I think where we are in society right now, where we are in a crisis, we're in a crisis facing men, we have a climate crisis, we have potentially looming economic crisis. And at least changing the question is, what role will people play? And I think that's where we as leaders have to be clear and provide that vision that you talked about about. Here's where you could become. Here's the role you could play. Here's the role we need you to play. And I want my sons to know that there is a really important place for them in the world to help other people. And. And if they do that, and if they step up and if they play that role of something that they're passionate about, that they care about, that it's going to be fulfilling and purposeful and meaning for them as well.

I think where I'd love to end off is what you are wanting to instill in your sons. You know, as a dad of three, you got some good wild child, you know, boy phasing. I only got one, and I'm like, man, that kid's. He's. He's. He's like 100% my son. You know, like, I was a wild, feral animal. Truly, I was just a feral animal. And he's. He's a version of that. Not to the same degree, thank God, but. Yeah. What. What do you hope to teach your sons? What do you want to instill into them? What vision of being a man or masculinity do you hope to model for them and pass down for them?

Yeah, there's a lot I need instilled in them, including how to still clean their room and take regular showers. We're working on that one. But I think what I want to instill in them is a sense of responsibility, real responsibility. And again, I talked about that, is that there's personal responsibility of how to take care of yourself and be healthy. And be mentally healthy, physically healthy, and to make sure that you wake up every day with confidence. And I want to instill in them a sense of communal responsibility, that part of what it means to not just be a man, but to be a human being is to be part of something, to be part of a community, a village. And that the community only works when we all do our part, when we all play our role. And everyone has to play that role. And that is changing right now. People's understanding of roles and where they fit into society is changing. And I want to instill that no matter where you land and what your passion is, and I hope they pursue their own passion and they find something that's meaningful to them personally, that they always take with them a sense of responsibility to the rest of the community. Because if they do, then I think they're going to live much happier and healthier lives.

What about. I'll just ask one, one last piece, because I think this ties into everything that we've been talking about with the program and with men. What about being exceptional and really developing, like, deep, rigorous competency? Because I think it's. I see this constant narrative in modern culture and society that's sort of like anti exceptionalism that like, you don't want to stand out. Being exceptional isn't worth the pursuit, you know, And I see that with a lot of men where it's like they've lost the plot of like, get really good at something, man. Get like so freaking good at something that you enjoy. And there, there will be something incredibly meaningful in there. So how does that fit into your frame?

Squarely, I do think, and I think that's part of the personal responsibility. Part of personal responsibility means having the courage and it takes courage to really, truly pursue your passions. That's hard to do, especially when you have society telling you to go a bunch of different ways and, and that, you know, whether you have to go make a lot of money or you have to, you have to go get a college degree or whatever, whatever it is, to find, to have the courage to follow what you really care about and then to also have the responsibility to be really good at it, to put everything that you have into that and be committed, whether you're the town blacksmith or you're the town doctor, that you're going to be the best at it. Because again, other people are counting on you to be the best. I think that's the point. I think we want excellence. We want excellence in our men. We want them to be confident and we want them to be strong because other people are counting on them. And that's the message we're trying to send.

Awesome. Awesome, my friend. Well, thank you so much for everything that you're doing and the program that you guys are building for men, for young men. I appreciate it. We'll have the links for it in the show notes, anywhere that you want to send people specifically to learn more about the program.

Yeah. Menservice Challenge.com Go check it out. Sign up. And we want service challenges all across the country. So if you want to create a service challenge in your community or your state, reach out. We'll help you. But we need, we need men stepping up everywhere to serve. So join us.

Beauty, thank you so much for joining. And as always, everybody that's tuning in, don't forget to man it forward. Share this episode with somebody that you know will enjoy it. We want to take action on it. Tune into this conversation. And as always, until next week, Connor Beaton signing off.