The Reality Of Sex Research and Stats with Dr. Nicole McNichols

All right, Dr. Nicole McNichols, welcome to the Man Talk Show. How are you doing today?

I am wonderful. So happy to be here, Connor. Thank you.

You got it. Well, let's. Let's dive in. There's lots of ground for us to cover. Let's start with maybe the. The most pressing question I think men would ask, which is what. What do men generally misunderstand about what actually creates attraction for women?

I think that there is this myth that attraction is instantaneous, sort of the way our bodies are supposed to just become, you know, excited and aroused right away, and that a lot of times, amazing sex comes from a sense of getting to know somebody over time and leaning into the connection that comes from understanding who they are as a person person. Getting to know each other's bodies and learning each other's sexual communication styles.

What would you say the role that confidence plays in for men? Because I think there's a perception of, like, you know, men that are successful sexually, whether in dating or relationships, or, like, super confident. What role would you say that confidence plays in into connection?

Confidence is huge, and it's a real challenge today, I think, for a lot of men to really feel very confident, primarily because we're just bombarded with so many messages, both from Netflix as well as porn, about what sex is supposed to look like, what attraction is supposed to look like, how big the average penis is supposed to be, how long sex is supposed to last, what the types of sexual positions and techniques are that are most likely to turn on a woman if you are, you know, if your partner is a woman. And it's just really a question of being able to understand that those are myths that are just getting in your way because you do not need to have enormous genitals or huge sexual proudness right off the bat to be able to have incredible connected sexual experiences. It's really. You know, the research is. Is very clear that the biggest driver of sexual satisfaction is going to be sexual curiosity and learning about the realities of your own body, as well as the types of techniques and touch that feel good to a partner so that you can communicate in a way where you're having really amazing sexual experiences defined in your own terms, not according to all of the myths that porn and Netflix are giving to us.

Yeah, they definitely. They can definitely skew it, you know?

Yes. Yep.

And it's like, should it really look like an English cucumber? Like, is that what I.

Or should there be fluids flying? Ridiculous distances?

There's. I saw a great. I remember watching it's like great comedian. And he was talking about like what he watched in porn and he's like, you know, I like watch these dudes in porn and like they're orgasming and it's basically like a sprinkler going off. It's like it's flying across the room. And he's like, the next day I was, I was so excited and I'm, you know, I'm having sex with, I can remember he's like married or had a girlfriend or whatever. I'm having sex and I was like, I'm going to come and I thought I was going to have this moment. It was like, blah. And he's. And then he like makes this joke about, you know, being lucky if he didn't come on himself.

But exactly.

So, you know, so.

Yeah, yeah. And so just to, just to rectify that right up front, average ejaculate a teaspoon has 5 calories, in case you're wondering, it is less than 1% of it is firm. And it, you know, the Average penis is 5 1/2 inches long, not 12 as porn might have you believe. And the average amount of time that a guy lasts from the beginning of penetration to the end is five and a half minutes. And guess what? Most women don't have orgasms from penetrative sex. So that's just fine. Most women don't want you to be lasting for an hour the way, you know, the porn stars do. So I think really sort of understanding the realities of how bodies work and what, what great sex looks like is, is really good. You know, we don't need to have 8 million Olympic style positions to have incredible sex, right? You to again have the ability to check in with your partner and use certain key phrases and techniques that you learn by talking to your partner, not just following whatever script is in our head. But we do know from the research that even if you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know porn's not real, Netflix isn't real. You know, there's. We have what are called schema activation models, which means that even if you don't, even if you know full well that that's not what sex or you know, is supposed to look like, even just merely seeing it. And I, by the way, I'm not saying that porn, viewing porn is always bad, it actually can serve a healthy part in your life. You know, we can get back to that later. But if you're simply even just seeing it, right, without that intention of bringing your conscious awareness back to the fact that it's not real, it's going to automatically set up an unconscious standard in your head so that during you are comparing yourself to that. And this can lead to a phenomenon that Masters and Johnson in the 1960s, when they brought people into a lab, hooked up their bodies, watched them have sex, measured their bodies, measured their cognitions, it leads to something called spectatoring. And spectatoring is kind of what it sounds like. It's this idea that instead of being present during sex, instead of paying attention to the cues in your body and being attuned to the sexual responses and how that your partner is responding, letting that be your guide, you almost hover above yourself judging yourself from this third party perspective where you're thinking, you know, am I lasting long enough? Am I, you know, doing this the way that the porn star that my unconscious is already comparing me against, you know, looks like, you know, is my penis large enough? Am I lasting long enough? And so all of these different thoughts can just get in your way of being present and just completely rob you of pleasure. That is so integral to this definition of connected, better sex that I talk about in my book.

Yeah, I think, I think for a lot of the men that I've worked with over the years, that what you're talking about and sort of like the performance anxiety realm leads to like the rumination death spiral, you know, where you're like self reflecting. It's like, is this going well? And then it starts to become this like hyper vigilance where you. That's kind of all that you're thinking about. And then, you know, that's. That's a recipe for disaster.

Yes.

I'm curious if you can come back to two, two things. One is, is sexual curiosity maybe just outlining a little bit more about what that can look like for a man to develop a little bit more sexual curiosity. And then two, what are some of the strategies or some of the ways that, that men really can develop or build a kind of, you know, robust sexual confidence in a way that's like internally grounded rather than performative.

So you're absolutely right. Sexual curiosity is the biggest aphrodisiac that you can have in a relationship, whether it is long term or just for a night. And if you are in a long term relationship and you're looking for effective way to improve your sex life that you can do tonight, I always tell couples, go sit someplace, like on your couch, someplace that is comfortable where you feel safe. Because safety is the foundation of pleasure, not uncertainty, which is also a big myth. Ask your partner what is the best sex that we've ever had? Give each other a second to just think about that. Right. And then describe to each other what that incredible sex was that you had. What was the emotional state that led up to it? Did you feel particularly connected after sharing some experience together? Whether it was a walk or you were on vacation someplace or you were out to dinner, or you were even just talking in the kitchen? What were the different activities that happened during it? Right. What types of techniques or positions or accoutrements, whatever it was, did you use? And then afterwards, what was the debriefing process like? Aftercare is incredibly important. The research is clear that focusing on positive communication is more effective than focusing on all the things that your partner is doing wrong or all the ways in which it's disappointing you. We're Pavlovian. We respond to positive feedback. And if we know that there was a certain emotional state or a certain technique, or we can really marinate and savor what was incredible about our best sexual experiences and lean into that, that's going to fuel your sense of curiosity for how can we not only recreate that, but take it to the next level and, you know, finding those common themes? I think that sexual curiosity also applies to people who are single and who are perhaps at a stage in life where they're having casual sex or in a friends with benefits relationship where we need to normalize phrases during sex, like guide me, tell me what you want. Right. How is this feeling? Can you do this? Can I do that? Do you want me to keep going? Right. Many of these, you know, show me, tell me. All of these phrases, if we can get more comfortable using in the moment, are going to make curiosity naturally lead our experiences and are going to lead to, you know, more. More orgasms, more pleasure, and better sex all around.

That's. Yeah, that's good. I think you said something about uncertainty not being the gateway. I would love for you to maybe just talk about that a little bit more and maybe create a bit of a distinction. Are you talking about spontaneity? Are you really talking about uncertainty? Because I think there is a sort of common trope that uncertainty can be an access point, absolute myth.

Mystery does not fuel desire. Gratitude does. Feeling seen does. And there's so much research by the guys that simply completely debunks this idea that distance makes the heart grow fonder. We connect. We feel more attracted to our partners when we feel seen and when we feel that they understand how we're feeling and we feel like they're grateful for everything that we're doing. And this goes both ways, right? Not just women feeling, you know, grateful for their partners, but men feeling grateful for everything that their partners are doing. And it's, you know, really this idea again that sex has to be this big mystery and that the best thing you should do to fuel your attraction to your partner is to, you know, go on a trip without each other and spend more time apart is simply not backed by research. What is backed by research is that focusing on your own self growth does fuel passion into a relationship. And I think that often gets conflicting with this idea of uncertainty. And so what that means is yes, you should be having shared experiences together, but you should also be focusing on something in your own life that brings you a sense of joy, a sense of autonomy, a sense of pride. And to the extent that you can be focusing on those things that bring you that sense of self growth, and then this is key, coming back to your partner to share those experiences, to reconnect at the end of the day regularly is going to essentially keep both of you as slightly evolving people consistently in your lives. And so every time you come back to reconnect, you're sort of slightly different versions of each other. And that breeds excitement. I mean, that in a sense breeds the kind of mystery where you're always again, coming back to this curiosity, learning about your partner, right? Seeing them in a slightly different light, being lit up by what lights them up. And if we can nurture that, that's what's going to breathe air into desire. Not saying, okay, well, we just spend too much time together, we're codependent, right? A word that our culture has just completely co. Opted. But then I think your question was, well, how else does this idea of uncertainty really, as a myth, get in our way? The other major way in which it gets into our way is by suggesting that in order for an experience, a sexual experience, to be pleasurable for people to have incredible orgasms, that they're thinking about the next day and just relishing it, that it needs to be spontaneous. Because there's so much research, especially now coming out, specifically looking at that question of which do couples report as being more satisfying sex that they're having? You know, they walk in the door or it's just spontaneously hits them and the desire overcomes them and they have sex versus sex that has been planned that, you know, not as in the context of, you know, a contract, but putting aside a night when you are committed to closing your laptop early and committing to the Experience of really what I call in my book an intimacy date. That although everyone in these studies up front is like, oh, well, obviously the uncertainty, the, you know, not expecting it, that sexual experience, of course that's going to be more satisfying. When they look at longitudinal data of these couples, what they find is that the planned sex is just as satisfying, leads to just as many orgasms as the sex that is unplanned. So this can be a really helpful tool. Right. Especially for couples where maybe one person has higher desire than the other. Right. And so maybe you're in a situation where you find that you are kind of ready for sex all the time, but. But you feel like your partner. It's a little bit harder to predict. That can take a couple into a tricky situation where you feel like you're trying to initiate sex because it's supposed to be uncertain and, you know, could come out of nowhere. And then you get turned down by your partner, which is a situation that a lot of people can find over time. That rejection just feels really bad. Well, again, you're planning your intimacy date. You're asking your partner, what's your favorite way for me to initiate what needs to happen? You know, how can we. I care about you, I care about our intimate life. How can we prioritize time together when we can make our sex life even better? And, you know, it gives people a chance to get into that emotional frame of mind to be able to have sex and shown that it actually can increase desire, especially in couples. There's a new research out just last month showing that for couples that have young children, a time when it can be particularly hard to prioritize your sex life just because of how chaotic and busy things are, planning intimacy increases desire, increases the frequency with which you'll have sex, and increases sexual satisfaction.

Yeah, that's great. I mean, I just had a conversation with the client the other day, and it was like, planet put it on the calendar. The two of you need to have a conversation where it's just agreed on and it's just there. And no matter who's tired or, you know, what needs to be done, left in the kitchen or whatever around the house is just like, just get it in the books, you know? Yeah, just. Just like we would with almost anything else. Right. With our health and our wellness.

Right.

Those things have to happen. So. Okay, that's great. Just to close the loop on the confidence piece and the curiosity piece. Are you saying that we benefit? We'll talk about maybe men specifically, but that, like, men specifically benefit from leading with curiosity sexually around their own bodies and about their partner's bodies or about curiosity with desire. I like some of the things that you threw out there, but I just want to close the loop on it.

Yeah. So again, confidence comes from curiosity about their own bodies, the bodies of their partner, and the types of experiences or emotional states that lead them to feel more turned. Turned on. And it also comes, you know, confidence also comes from just embracing a sexual growth mindset. Right. Which, you know, is just this idea that. No, nobody. I mean, sure. Do sexual unicorns exist? Sure. But most people are not born with a, you know, innate ability to be an incredible lover. For most people, it's a learned skill and really understanding leading into this idea that, you know, sometimes you're going to make the first pancake and it's going to come out really crappy and it's going to take a few tries for something new to work. And that's okay. Right. That's healthy. That's how you learn, that's how you get better. And that it's really sort of leaning into this idea that I'm going to not let these standards of comparison get in my way. And I'm not going to fall for this myth that if it's not absolutely amazing right this minute, that there's no room for change.

Yeah. I do think that what I mean, I've been working with men for 10 years, so I can pull from my data set. I don't think there's an actual study on what I'm about to say. I can pull from the data set of men that I've talked to, which is like maybe tens of thousands now, that part of the hurdle is that we need to get we as many to get over this preconceived notion that we should be that sexual unicorn right out the gates. And. And I think for a lot of men, that's a struggle. Right. Because they watch porn, they have some sexual experiences, and it's like the expectations that most guys do put on themselves are very high. Like. Yeah, it's so funny because I've worked with men who have very low expectations of themselves in most areas of their life. And then I talk to them about their sexual expectations and it's like off the charts.

Right.

And so I do think that there's that pressure there to perform to pleasure, to all of those types of things. And I think what part of what I'm hearing you say is we can sort of quell that or turn down the intensity, dial on it by leading with some curiosity, being a little bit more beginner mindset oriented, even if you've been in that relationship for a long time.

Exactly.

Roughly. Accurate.

Yes. That that nails it literally and figuratively. It's really about.

So many, so many, so many metaphors. So many metaphors can be had.

Exactly, exactly. It's, you know, and you have to think about it. Who would you rather, you know, as a listener, who would you rather have sex with? Someone who comes to the experience, who just believes they know what you want, has all the confidence in the world is, you know, believes that they just hold the secret versus someone who comes and is really eager to learn and wants to know what turns you on and wants to know what you enjoy and asks you during the, you know, the whole experience checks in because it's, you know, sex is a connection, form of connection where if that communication and collaboration isn't happening, it's just not going to be satisfying. And if somebody comes with all this bravado and none of the curiosity and none of the beginner mindset, even if they've had sex a billion times, that's a turn off. That's kind of icky, right? That's not. That feels like you're having sex according to the manual that you read. Not according to me. The person right in front of you.

I was giggling because you said comes with bravado.

Yes, there you go.

I think that's how everybody should come. Should come is just bravado. Like, use as much bravado as you can. You know, climax in a very operatic way. Okay. All. All jokes aside, I think the interesting thing is that when, when men lead with this curiosity, it seems like eventually you start to develop a certain level of attunement and understanding of like, how to be more energetically in tune, physically attuned.

Is.

Is that something that this leads towards? Because I think for a lot of men it helps us to have a kind of path, right. Of just like, okay, I can do these X, Y and Z, and it's going to help me produce this outcome. Like, a lot of the times we are very linear and so we kind of need the, like, okay, if you do X, Y and Z, eventually it's going to lead to this outcome. So if a man is leading with curiosity and he's kind of having that open communication that you're talking about, and he's, you know, leading with the beginner's mindset, what can that eventually lead to? Like, what does that eventually produce?

Right. Yeah, exactly. So how that works is that it takes you out of your own head thinking about your, your own performance and focuses your attention on your partner by asking them about what turns, you know, again, back to this question of what's the most incredible sex we've ever had? And leaning into that because when you're coming to your partner, there we go again with a sense of tell me about your experience. That self consciousness and performance mindset automatically will melt away. Right. It automatically. It's those questions that really put us into connection with our partner and get us out of our own heads. Not critiquing ourselves make us feel more confident. And those answers are what then provide the roadmap. Right. Those answers are exactly what then guides the experience. And yours as well. Right. Because curiosity is not just about your partner, but about your own experience as well. You should be asking your partner what was the most incredible sex we've ever had and lean into that. But you should also be asking yourself that question and sharing that, you know, with your partner. So it's, you know, again, just getting the self, getting the focus away from me, me, me, me, me, I, I, I, I, I, where you're just comparing, comparing, comparing to your partner, which brings you naturally into the present, not into some spectator mindset that we were talking about earlier.

Yeah. And what, what do you recommend for guys that. Because I've heard this quite a bit where they'll ask the questions of what do you really enjoy or what do you really want to explore? What would you really love to do? When's the sort of greatest, you know, the best sex that we've ever had? And they're met with kind of like, I don't know. Because I think that's a very common, like, I don't know what I like. I don't know what I really want to explore. I don't really know what I've enjoyed and whether it's because of inexperience or being shy or whatever it is. How can a man sort of traverse that, that space?

Yes. I think that that really comes from making sure that you have talked to your partner ahead of time about this question. Right. Because I think that when we can look, whenever we come to our partners and we put forth a big question, you're right. Maybe your partner has never really thought about that before and it can be overwhelming if they haven't, if sex is not something that you're ever used to speaking about. And, you know, so that's why I really say bring up the question and decide that you're going to have time to think about it. Give your partner space to be able to think. Okay, like, when I really think about that experience. Right. Put a date to it. Like, literally write it down, describe it, write the story about it. And maybe, you know, don't say, because oftentimes it can be like, what do you want? Right. Knowing what we want in life in general is one of our biggest challenges. But if we can think about our specific experiences and again, going back to name, like a time when we had sex, when it was amazing, maybe it was early on in the relationship when you can remember and start talking about concrete details from those times, that's what's going to allow you to start thinking more comfortably about these ideas, the different types of, you know, techniques or emotions that were brought to the experience, as opposed to this big, wider open question of what do you want? Which can be really hard.

Yeah, fair. Well, I think that kind of brings me into this notion of the distinction between sexual desire and sexual arousal. It seems like those two things are often conflated. Can you just talk a little bit to creating the distinction between those two and how an individual, how a man, and then a couple can kind of get to know one another's sexual desire versus arousal.

Yes. So we call this in the academic circles, arousal non concordance. And the way that, you know, if you think about it. Right. The clearest example of this is we look all the time at, you know, people who will have a sexual response but don't report feeling turned on, you know, immediately. Perfect example are, you know, boys that are going through puberty who are, you know, getting erections all the time. And it's at the most inopportune. Awkward, awkward times. Right. Not when they're even thinking about sex at all. And the same thing will happen, you know, can happen with women. And sometimes you can feel a sense of desire and a subjective sense of feeling turned on. And your body is not quite there yet. Right. Your body has not warmed up. There's no lubrication. And so it really is, you know, taking sort of a step forward. Right. It's understanding that there shouldn't be a sense of insecurity about that because it's completely normal. But then also recognizing that, you know, for some people, those feelings of being turned on only happen after the physical signs of arousal have occurred. So in other words, it's after you've had a chance to touch your body against your partner's body and your body is responding and warming up. It's only after that that your body looks to those Physiological signs at an unconscious level and is like, oh, I'm turned on, right. I feel good. Oh, this, right. I'm warmed up. Then it kicks in. And I think there can be so much insecurity because this happens to men too. Right. It's not just women where, you know, you need to start touching and warm up before you can feel that sense of desire. For many men, it's exactly the same, especially in, you know, now when there is just, you know, we're so busy, we're so stressed out. We're so used to feeling like we need to achieve certain things before we can connect with a partner. And just knowing that, you know, it's okay for your body to take a little time to get turned on and that after that, right, when your body starts to respond, that those sexual experiences can be just as wonderful and pleasurable as experiences where you start turned on, where you start with that subjective feeling. So your body may not always reflect what's going on in your mind. Oftentimes it doesn't. And, you know, the best way to approach that is just with patience, you know, and, you know, depending on the specific issue. Right. Maybe it's. It could be lube. It could be, you know, taking, you know, a sex toy. There are, you know, so many different, you know, things that are available now that can help with people. People's bodies that take a little bit of time to warm up, that can then invite that sense of desire after it's happened. And it's just, you know, I really want to just drive home that what the research is clear about is that the experiences, the sexual experiences that come from a person whose sense of desire has only kicked in after their body has gotten turned on is just as satisfying as when it's happened in the other direction. Yeah.

Because again, I think that comes back to the, like, you know, what a lot of people see in, like, movies and. And porn and stuff like that. But I also think. I also think what. What, you know, people read in books, you know, like a lot of the fantasy novels, I think that can play a role in it. It's funny, I. I saw this reel the other day, and it's a couple sitting on the couch, and the guy, the dude's got like a big cowboy hat on, and, you know, he's like, super jacked act. And the wife is talking about how, you know, they're like, sitting with a therapist, and the therapist, like, you know, what would be your ideal morning? And she's like. She basically just describes, like, the most vulgar you know, getting, like, just basically getting fucked right by him. Yeah. Just getting. Just getting real. And, you know, like, head against the headboard, like. And she just goes off. And the guy's sitting there, like, listening, and then he's like, oh, what about you? And he's like, you know, we would wake up and.

Right.

And, you know, I would tell her that I love her and I would breakfast. And, you know, it was basically just this huge discrepancy in the style of sex that they would want. And I'm curious about how you bridge the gap between the people that want to have more like, soft, intimate sex versus the people that are like, I want to primally wreck you.

Right, right.

Or, like, get wrecked by you. Because I think sometimes we talk about desire discrepancy in the sense that somebody might want more or less frequency. But oftentimes. What's ha. What oftentimes I see within couples is there's also desire discrepancy in the power dynamic that people want to have happen. So can you speak a little bit to how.

How.

How do a couple bridge that gap?

Gap? Well, first of all, understanding that not every single one of your sexual experiences has to be exactly the same. And so, you know, just starting with this idea of diversity. And one of the ways that we introduce novelty is not, in fact, having every sexual experience having that. That same power dynamic. But beyond that, what's usually the most helpful is to explain the why behind the power dynamic. Right. So. So erotic power play, I mean, that is something in, at some level, is present in all of our sexual experiences, whether it is one person leading and the other person following, or one person gently pinning their partner's hands up against their head while the other one feels like they are surrendering. But that back and forth flow of power is something that is common throughout our sexual experiences as well as really our lives now, in how that shows up for partners might be a little bit different. And so for the partner, for example, who is maybe afraid of his wife's desire to have her head against the headboard and be railed, where does that come from? And so if they can have a conversation about what his fear is, is it that he loves her and feels like she's, you know, that doing something any, like, aggressive like that to her is gonna, you know, somehow counteract what he feels is his, you know, level of love and connection to her? Or is he going to feel like he just has a lot of shame or guilt around that type of sex and has, you know, been taught to view it as dysfunctional. Right. Those are myths. And also, you know, feelings that, when explained, can start to sort of suck things, the fear out of the experience. Right. For example, knowing that it is very normal in our sexual experiences to want to live out a Persona or an experience that is totally counter to the way we feel in the rest of our lives. Right. A lot of people who hold a lot of responsibility, who feel like they are constantly in charge of everything and everyone want to go to a place in sex where they are feeling like they can just completely surrender. We tend to be turned on by that which is taboo. Right. The very definition of what tends to, you know, get our brains going oftentimes are fantasies and behaviors that are extremely politically incorrect. Right. So this is kind of why I, you know, Write about my McNichols Hierarchy of sexual needs in my book. Because if we're going to be able to understand the, you know, what's possible and on the menu for something like kink, we need to first understand sort of the cognitive and social meaning behind it, which is not that this wife wants to be assaulted or, you know, treated aggressively, but that she wants to go to an erotic realm that's unique for her and her. Just for her and her partner and feel like. Like she's showing a part of herself and getting an emotional need met, that she's not being.