Top Therapist: How To STOP Creating Attachment Issues In Children

Attachment gets inhibited when we tell kids they're good boys and good girls, instead of, I love you, sweetie. And you did that. Well, we have to teach people to separate those things. Like, I love you, sweetie, and it's not okay to throw your man on the floor. I love you, sweetie. And, wow, what a cool coloring thing he did. We want to always work on that separation of personhood and behavior.

Candidly, what I got a lot as a child was those two things were not separate. Right.

I heard a lot of, like, the.

What the hell's wrong with you? And why can't you get that right? So there was a lot of conflation of, if I do something wrong, I am wrong, which is the foundation of shame, and a whole bunch of other stuff that is very, very damaging. I've had to catch myself as a parent as well, because I've noticed that part come up. I had to learn how to do exactly what you're talking, which is like, hey, bud, like, you're okay, but let's, like, we don't do that. We don't. We don't operate in that way. We thr the stuff from the ground. We don't drive the truck into the walls.

All right, my friend, welcome back to the Man Talk Show. How you doing?

I am doing great. So good to be back. Good to see you.

Likewise. I was going to say welcome back, my old friend, but I didn't want you to feel like I was taking a jab at you.

Sure.

Sure.

Well, listen, it has been for those who know. They know. But it has been an honor the last couple years to. To get to know you better, to get to work alongside you and just to get to spend time with you and. And to. To be your friend, honestly, to just be in your life. It's been such a special gift to me. And I was sort of sitting around the other day, and my team was like, we're talking about the podcast. And, you know, what we were doing? They're like, how come we haven't had Dewey on in a long time? I was like, I don't know. That's a good question. I guess because I talk to him all the time.

Because I talk to him all the time.

I talk to him all the time. And you come and, you know, support with the men's weekends. And I was like, I. I don't know. But we definitely should. Especially because I've been talking about attachment, and you're the guru of attachment. I was like, I should definitely have you on and dive in deep so here we are.

I'm thrilled to be here.

I've been listening to some of the stuff you've been putting out in regard to attachment. I love what you're presenting. I love what you're bringing. And, yeah, actually, what you were saying about, you know, you and I communicate all the time, and it's like, oh, well, actually, when you said, will you do a podcast? I started going, oh, yeah, we haven't done that for a while. We've spoken a lot. We haven't done that.

I think it was the pandemic. I think the pandemic was the last time that we. Because I did that the. The Elders series. And you were one of the guests with Stephen Jenkinson.

Oh, that's right.

But, okay, so.

Well, that's a pretty fun group to be part of.

That was a phenomenal conversation. That was. That was very, very fun. And I feel like I should do part two of that.

Especially now. I think it's a very relevant time to have that conversation in. In people's lives for a number of reasons. I mean, one is because we have a lot of old people that have a tremendous amount of power that don't seem to know what the hell they're doing.

I had no clue who you're talking about.

I don't know what we're talking about there. But there's some old people in power that seem to be an absolute gong show. And then we have real elders, in my opinion, like yourself, who live on the side of a mountain, and you're sort of like Obi Wan Kenobi in Star Wars. You know, you're hard to find, and you're not seeking out these sort of public positions of. Of power or authority. And yet your wisdom is. Is timeless and in, again, in my opinion, incredibly, incredibly important. And so maybe we'll start before we dive into attachment. Maybe we'll start with a question on that front, because I think that's an interesting question. Why do you think that leaders, really good leaders, don't actually seek out power? And why do you think that elders who have real depth of wisdom, who have a lot to offer the world, are often not the ones who are in the spotlight, who are in the positions of power. And it's usually the ones that, you know, are sort of seeking power and want it, but maybe necessarily shouldn't have it. How come you think that unfolds? All right, team, I have said it before, and I will say it again. I like to cook for efficiency and nutrition. I don't like it to Take a long time. I'm not super into like massive amounts of meal prep and that is why I love Factor. Factor has a great solution. Ready to eat meals. All of them are always fresh, they're never frozen and they are chef crafted, which I absolutely love. They are delicious. I have ate a ton of them. Now you have a ton of options as well because they have keto, they have calorie smart, they have meals with extra protein. If you are going through a bulking phase and you're trying to put on muscle mass like I have been in the last few months, they really make it simple. And the meals are very, very easy and quick to, to make. So if you are interested in leveling up your consumption of food, making it quick, making it easy, but making it delicious, then head on over to factor meals.com mantalks50 again, it's factor meals.com mantalks50 and you will get 50% off when you use the promo code mantalks50 so don't forget man talks50 I was actually.

Talking with my partner about this the other day, something similar to this. And I've talked, I've spoken to a lot of people about.

Marketing and there's this whole thing going on right now in the world in regard to marketing like online and social media and, and some of the, you know, the TV ads and blah, blah, blah, blah. And someone asked me about have I ever marketed? And my answer is no.

The, I mean I do now have an Instagram account, but that's not where I spend a lot of time or energy. When I first went into practice.

Nearly 50 years ago.

We had yellow pages and I had a little half inch free ad in there with my name and telephone number. My perspective of.

What I try to do is to be incredibly confident. That's my goal. And if I'm not competent at something or if I need to know something, I'll go find something. I'll go find out what I need to know. And that's been when I'm around people who I consider elders and people who I would consider a mentor. My what I look for is competency, not marketing.

And because in my world.

Competency is marketing. And, and, and people will share.

Yeah. Like I spoke to so and so and they were incredible. You need to go find them. And, and that's actually, that's actually my belief system and it does go to also my definition of power, which is different than many. My definition is the ability to influence and be influenced in contact and relationship.

And for the people that are out there who are just filling up the social media.

Venues and advertising. It's like they're. What they're doing is saying, I want to influence you.

Most of them are not saying they want to be influenced.

And it doesn't feel like it's reciprocal. And the, the definition, the. In. In my world, I want to be able to see, hear, get, and protect in relationship. And one of the biggest things I want. I truly want to be able to do is to get people the way that they want to be gotten, not the way that I think they should be gotten. Does that make sense?

By gotten, you mean you want to understand people understand. They want to be understood?

You bet. And why.

Why is that important for people? Just on a psychological basis. And I know it might feel obvious or sound obvious to maybe even some of the listeners out there, but I want to hammer that home.

Each of us has something that's important to us. Each of us has something that, when somebody else understands that. That aspect of us.

They feel like they've been seen, they feel like they've been heard, and they feel like you get them. And if I'm trying to decide or think that I even have the right to decide what. What being seen, heard, and gotten by somebody else is, then all I'm doing is projecting onto them. I'm not really getting them. I might be saying that that's how I might want to be gotten, that's how I might want to be heard, that might be how I want to be seen. But unless we're really willing to.

Get somebody how they want to be gotten and get somebody, hear someone how they want to be heard, see someone how they want to be seen.

We'Re not getting them. And so the biggest piece, I think this is sort of circling back around. The biggest piece that I see in.

Being on the side of a mountain.

Instead of putting myself out is like I. I want people.

To know that I'm willing to slow down, that I'm willing to hear, see, and get them the way that they want to be heard, seen and gotten versus me telling them how they should be seen, Heard.

And that takes time. That, That's. That takes a lot of time. And it takes a commitment to spending that time with someone enough to do that versus one of. One of the things that's happening. I think I was just talking to a really good friend of mine who's a therapist in Asheville.

About people want quick fixes. And I don't think there are any. There's no quick fix. There's no, quick something.

We just, we just lost like 20 of the listeners that were hoping to get a quick fix for their attachment issues.

I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I, I agree, I agree with you, wholehearte. I just think that, you know, sometimes we have to inject some humor into this conversation. But I've, I've learned that the hard way. I've learned that the hard way.

Exactly. So here's the, here's the deal though.

One of the one for people who are going, how do I fix my attachment issues? The first step, and this one is quick, is getting that you have an attachment issue toward is as soon as you begin getting and talking about, you know, it's like, I want to be able to get someone how they want to be gotten. We also need to know how to get ourselves. And if I'm able to come in and say, yeah, this, this piece is a real issue for me, this piece is an issue of, of where I need to be able to get myself, where I need to be able to go.

Yeah, I avoid, I'm anxious. I'm afraid that's the beginning of a quick fix. And that can happen literally in seconds of going, yeah, I got some shit to deal with here. I've got some stuff I need to look at.

Yeah. So there's transparency both internally with being able to be honest with ourselves about what we need to sort of come be, be forward with and, and share with other people, understanding people where they're at, or understanding people in the way that they're wanting to be understood. Which can take some detective work. Right. Because that's not always forthcoming. It's not always clear how people want to be understood or what aspects of themselves that they want to be understood or what elements of their past or their present that they feel like aren't understood. You know, aren't understood. Because I feel like that's a lot of conflict in relationship, right. Which is two people not understanding one another or one person not understanding the other person. And then it creates conflict. And so I, I feel like we could probably go a little bit deeper into that. And maybe the good follow up question is how do we begin to understand.

Let'S just say our partner? Because I feel like that's a good place for us to, to start. Our girlfriends, our wives, husbands, boyfriends, you know, wherever you're at listening to this. How do we begin to understand our partners in a way where we're understanding them for who they're wanting to be understood as versus us? Just Trying to say, this is who I think you are.

Well, here's another quick fix. You asked them.

Now, sometimes people don't know because they haven't checked us out themselves. And the bottom line is, is that we really need to ask. It's like what I literally will ask my partner. What do you want me to see you as? How do you want me to listen to you when, when I say I get you, what does that mean to you? Not what, not what's it mean to me? Because it's different. It's, it's, it's different if, if she asked me what do I want, what am I asking what, you know, how do I want to be heard, etc. Etc. It's. It's different. And one of the pieces that I'll speak to with this, and this is, this will connect with. Into attachment pieces that we actually meet at our differences, not where we're the same. We meet at our differences.

What do you mean by that?

Well.

If you and I were exactly the same, would we be having this conversation?

Probably not.

Probably not.

No. We wouldn't even have to have it because. And what would we have to talk about? I mean, what, what's incredibly interesting about.

Our relationship with each other? One of the things that is your life has been very different than my life. I mean, one, we're fairly dramatically different in age, but two is you grew up in a different country than I grew up in. You grew up in a different situation than I grew up in. And it's like, what's fascinating is it's like your experience of the world is different than my experience of the world, and it's utterly fascinating. That has played out. And I mean, are there places where we connect and we go, yeah, boy, I get that one. We. We do that. We've done that with each other a lot. But the underlying piece is it's like I don't want you to be the same as me.

Yeah.

I want to know who you are individually and, and this is we in. In other places I've talked about what's called a. What I call. And actually this originally comes from Martin Buber, the I thou relationship versus I it because. And what I add into that is I call it I thou we when we're really in relationship. So at the underlying piece is it's like you are different. Then another being is different for me. And whether it be my horses or whether it be the elks that go through my property.

Or the deer or the bears or the mountain lions, whomever that may be.

But it's like.

I am continually.

Curious and invest. I want to investigate what. What's different? What, what. What's. What does life mean to you? What has meaning to you? And because that's how I can begin to get you.

And some people talk about, you know, talk about. When I've said this before, some people go, oh, yeah, you're talking about love language. And that's sort of a rudimentary way to look at it. But I. I think we're far more sophisticated.

Yeah, yeah, I. I agree with that.

This morning, I. My farrier, for those of you who don't know what a farrier is, it's a person to put shoes on your horses. Trims their feet, put shoes on them.

I had two of my horses shot this morning. And like, the experience of shoeing one of them is completely and dramatically different than the experience of shooting that.

So we. When we come in getting that other people have different experiences and other people live different lives than us, and we want to explore those. What that is and what that means with them, then it means with them and for them, that's where we can begin getting them. That's where we can begin understanding them. That's where we can begin allowing.

Them to come into our hearts and our souls. And when they do that with us, then we get to step into their space with them, where they get us in their hearts and their souls.

Yeah, I think, you know, it sort of requires this curiosity and inquisitiveness that we have to maintain within our relationships and just within our sort of natural way of being. I also find that the more time we spend with people, the easier it is for us to fall into the trap of believing that we know who they are at all times, in all circumstances, especially within intimate relationships. I've caught myself with Vienna, with my wife a number of times where.

I sort of adopt. I've adopted this, like, arrogance sometimes of, you know, I know who you are and I know what you're thinking and I know what you're feeling, and I know why you're acting that way. And I have to catch myself, which is kind of funny because I'm naturally a very curious person. Like, it's kind of what's led me to the work that I do today. I have an insatiable curiosity that I love. I really love that part of me. It's what led me to riding motorcycles and doing yoga and breath work and opera singing and all kinds of stuff. But I find that within intimate relationships, we can. We can fall back into this place of I know everything about you or I know why you're acting that way, and we miss out on who the person is in that moment. You know, I found that sometimes that blinds me from really, in your words, getting my wife, you know, getting where she's at, what she's thinking or feeling or experiencing. And. And it, you know, I think it comes from a good place. I'm. I'm wanting to understand her. But I think sometimes it also comes from a.

You know, not great place of, like I said, like this arrogance of, I know, I know you, and I know what you're thinking, I know what you're feeling. And I find that couples, people within relationships, can get into that trap a lot. And so you're saying, leaving room for the curiosity and the inquiring to constantly be a part of the process is a very important piece. Like, what I try and ask Vienna on an almost daily basis now is instead of saying, how is your day? Or how are you doing? I'll say, what do you want me to know about your day today? Or what do you want me to know about how you're feeling? Or what do you want me to understand about that conflict? And so I've changed my language to create more space for her experience.

Exactly.

Less room for my own BS of how I. What I think.

Right.

Because my mind can just fill in the gaps if I'm not careful.

Well, and what you're saying, Connor, I think, is incredibly interesting because the more that we know somebody, the more that we study about who we are as people. I mean, you spend an enormous amount of time studying and learning and being curious about what happens in your relationship with men with attachment, with what makes a healthy relationship, what makes a relationship with. Isn't so functional. All of those things as well as. I mean, that's what I've done my entire life, my entire adult life, and in one way or another. And I mean, what I found is that the more that I know, the less that I actually.

Really get. It's like, okay, I know enough to where I don't know that much. But when we think that we know something and we say, you know, if you say to Vienna, I say to Kimberly, for those who don't know, Kimberly is my partner. It's like, I know who you are. I know what's happening. And it's like, I don't really.

What I'm really saying is from inside me, from inside my body, if I were you, this is what I think that this would the experience would be now, if you want to say it that way, it's sort of fun relationally because people then know that you're basically, what you're doing is guessing and it's okay to guess. Just name it.

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But you're right, I mean, when you say to Vienna, what, what is it that you want me to know about your day? That's a really good way to create an opening for, for her. And, and I ask a summer similar question. It's oftentimes I'll say.

With Kimberly, I'll ask two questions. How was your time with Blank? Like right now she's down in golden hanging out with one of her best women friends. And when she comes home, I'll say, how was your time with, with this person? And then what I'll say is.

What affected you the most when you were with her?

That's, it's like, what, how were you. I'll say what affected you the most? Or how were you affected by spending this couple hours with this, your friend and.

Those kinds of things? Because that's what I want to know. I want to know how you're affected by whatever it is by X, Y and Z.

Which interestingly enough, is actually a really big piece of what goes on with in healthy, secure attachments. It's the parents wanting to know. Parents slash caregivers wanting to know how is this little person affected by me, by the environment, by the relationships, by whatever right now?

Yeah. And I think that assumption, whether we are parents or partners or leaders in a work environment, those assumptions that we have that we lay over top of other People can get in the way of really understanding where they're at. And so.

Let'S take a shift into attachment. Let's just start high level. And then I'm gonna. Where I'd like to go is how do we actually like, what are the building blocks of really healthy attachment? Because I think that's what everybody really is working towards. I think it's what most people want. It might be elusive for many of us and there's a lot of things that can get in the way. But that's where I'd like to end up with this conversation. But let's start with in your perspective, what is attachment? And for the average person out there listening, why does it matter? Why is it important?

Well, let me start with that.

The last part that you speak spoke about, why is it important?

Attachment is actually.

What creates the situation or the circumstances in which we thrive.

When there's not attachment. And this is actually Bowlby from World War II where he really started looking at attachment. When there's not attachment, we die as infants. We don't make it.

And so.

There'S a biological life giving that happens when.

We create babies and babies, you know, women get pregnant. But there's also a relational psychological nervous system.

Process that actually is about attachment. Attachment begins in utero. And for everybody out there, I want to make a statement here. Most people think that attachment only happens in utero with mothers. Mothers, the mothers who are pregnant with. With us when. During their pregnancy. That's not true.

It's true that it happens with. Between mothers and infants or mothers and fetuses actually. But it's also true that when we're in relationship with our wives or partners or whatever that relationship is, is that that helps, number one, attachment with the child. The baby that's going to be born. And it creates attachment between us and the baby through energetically and emotionally with that baby. And that baby actually feels that. There's actually studies that fathers who have been very close to mothers while mom was pregnant that babies can, can actually tell the difference and what different men. I mean, the study was putting out three to five men and babies could smell and recognize the smell of their father and their voice of their father. So this, the attachment piece is not just between moms and babies, it's between dads and babies too.

The.

And I want to put that out there because that's such a big thing to.

That actually helps create a really solid, secure attachment ultimately through being in utero, through the birthing process and through early life. The, the overall statement that I would say, and actually, I think that you've shared this in some other situations, is that going through a difficult time in contact, in relationship with another being and coming out. Okay. Is what creates attachment. When that becomes predictable.

And consistent predictable, that deepens attachment. When that becomes. Is consistent predictable over time, that creates a very deep relationship and ends between two beings. And it actually doesn't matter whether it's between mom and baby or dad and baby. Well, it matters that it's between mom and baby and dad and baby. But we in our adult lives go through the exact same thing. You know, like as you and I become friends, which I totally cherish our friendship. We have both experienced in our lives and in certain situations, difficult times with that we've supported each other through or helped other men work through or we've done that. You and I've done that in partnership with somebody. It creates a huge attachment between two. Two adult men. So it's not just moms and babies and dads and babies. Yeah.

So part of. I just want to recap some of this because I think it's very important. So attachment will form some of the foundation or much of the foundation of how we'll show up in relationships. And what helps to form that attachment is knowing that you can go through a hard time with another person and come out the other side. Okay. And so as a kid, as a child, that's where a lot of this is developed. And so can we just give some examples of what a hard time is? What do you mean by that? Do you mean that a kid needs food and is asking for it? They're hungry when they get injured. Like, I saw my son do this this morning. He fell out of his high chair. You know, he's going through a hard time when he fell out of the high chair and landed on his noggin. Right. So he's. He's upset. Another example is he was throwing a tantrum yesterday because he wanted to listen to a certain song, but we had to get out of the car. And so he's, you know, he's having a bit of a tantrum. He's very emotional. So are those examples of having. Going through a hard time as a child? What else would you add in there?

Yeah, let. I want to answer that and let me back up just a little bit. Sure. In utero, we go through a hard time also because our mothers go through a hard time at times.

Mothers sometimes don't get enough sleep. Our mothers might be in conflict with the father. Our mothers might be worried that they can't pay a bill. Our mothers might be. I mean, there's all kind kinds of things that happen. Mothers. There might be situations where a couple has had two miscarriages and now they're pregnant again. So those kinds of situations actually set up us going through a hard time because we're in utero while our mothers are going through a hard time. So.

The reason I'm saying this is because.

So much of early attachment, and then later when we. Because there's people who talk about, you know, avoidant and. Or anxious or disorganized attachment. I don't use those words that much, but I want to talk about that is that one of the things that people are gonna.

Oftentimes will. Oftentimes experience is they'll be going through what they'll. They might consider an avoidant attachment or an anxious attachment or disorganized. And they are going. I don't know where it comes from. The vast majority of the underlying process comes from a somatic experience, not from a spoken experience or not from a cognitive experience. So it actually comes through our bodies in a way that.

We need to go explore. So when, for instance.

When your son fell out of the high chair, whatever, however that happened this morning is, and he was really upset.

Part of what happened was either you or B. And I don't know who was there, probably both of you, is that you both went in and tried to. To comfort him, find out if he's okay. You're worried about what happened, all of those things. You know, you're checking to see if there's a bump on his head, if he scratched himself on the way down, all of that stuff.

The biggest piece that. That he will end up feeling is what's happening inside you energetically.

And so let's say a little guy falls out of his chair and you go, you okay? We're asking the same thing. And that's really different than go, hey, little buddy, come here, you. Okay? You know, those kinds of things. So what's happening energetically and what's happening somatically is incredibly, incredibly important.

Yeah, it's. It's interesting because I just want to drill a couple things home because for the audience that's listening, I think it's also important to note, and one of the things that you said that's super important is it can be very much somatic and not a cognitive thing.

Right.

It's like you can be feeling the avoidance of I need to get away and not have a rational reason for why that Avoidance is coming up. Or you can be feeling this anxiety of, I don't know why, but I just need to text bomb the crap out of this person. But I don't know why that's happening rationally. And I think what you're saying is so important is that a lot of this stuff is, is pre verbal. Like when your nervous system is wiring, when your brain is wiring, a lot of those things are happening before you have a very robust set of language skills and self awareness and self understanding and division between you as a child and a parent. A lot of the stuff that we're talking about is happening before that. And I think just another example with, with my son. So when he fell out of the high chair, knocked his head, he. When he goes through a hard time, he wants to make sure that he has repaired with both of us. It's really interesting. And so immediately Vienna was right there, picked him up, held him, and he kind of, you know, restored. He stopped crying. He was okay. But immediately he comes around the counter and connects with me and he's pointing to his head and he says, dada hurt head, hurt head. And I was like, I know, I picked him up. And I was like, I got you, it's okay. And he's been doing this more and more lately where he. And for me, it's a sign that he's got such a good relationship with both of us, is that anytime he goes through something hard like that, he connects with me. He connects with her. He connects with her first, then he connects with me after. And there's just so many examples of that where for me, it's like, oh, you know, that it's safe for you to come to both of us, regardless of, you know, what you've just gone through, that both of us are safe spaces. But I also think the last thing I'll say on the energetic front is kids are so wildly tuned into what you are feeling. And I think that we as individuals lose sight of how perceptive kids are. And what I mean by that is, you know, if you're listening and you're not a parent, I'm actually talking about you as a child. I'm not talking about your children necessarily. I'm talking about you as a child, that you as a child were incredibly perceptive about what your parents and your caregivers were feeling, experiencing energetically. And, you know, my son has taught me this in spades. I kind of knew that I was very dialed in as a kid and perceptive, but my son has taught me this in spades, because he's very much, like, checking in to see where I'm at. You know.

He'Ll be driving his truck into the wall, and I'll say, like, we don't do that, buddy.

We're gonna.

We're gonna break the wall. And here's your choices, right? You can either keep playing with the truck and stop driving into the wall, or you can drive it in the wall, and I'm going to have to take it away. And he'll check in with me. Data angry, you know, he's like, data angry. Data happy. And I'm like, man, oh, man, you are a sharp little cookie. I'm like, no, daddy's not angry, you know, and it gets me. It gets me every time because he is very dialed into when I am angry, you know? So, yeah, I just wanted to drop that in there as an example.

Well, and your example is incredible, because here's the other part of it. If he goes dead angry and you are angry, and you go, no.

That is not angry. He will know.

He will know. And.

It'S like, if you want to find a little lie detector test, look at every kid under 2 years old. It's like, oh, my gosh. So.

So let me talk about that a little bit, because this is a really big piece. This is. This is, like, really, really important. As young as.

Your son is, and when we're. When we're that young, our prefrontal lobe is not yet on. L. Our prefrontal lobe is. Is. Is developing all the nerves in our brain, and actually the rest of our nervous system are beginning to myelinate, but we are. We're not online. So that part of us that can judge and that part of us that just figures that out is. It's not there yet.

So what we're depending on is the rest of our nervous system to tell us whether the world's an okay place to be or not. That's what we're depending.

And our nervous system, in utero and at birth, is a completely open nervous system.

We are not. We have no filters. We have no way to have a filter. We have no way to go, oh, I'm not listening to that right now. We don't compartmentalize. It's like we're just on. So everything that's out there comes in.

And we used to think. I mean, when I was in school, which literally in the 70s, it was like, yeah, we're a blank slate. Well, that's just. That's not the case. It's like, we're not only not a blank slate, we come in with all kinds of experiences. We are probably the most sensitive.

Perceptually that we will ever be. Actually part of what happens when we grow up is we actually decrease our level of sensitivity. We also decrease our, the number of movements.

That are, we can make in our bodies like babies make up to. I think it's 1200 different movements in their bodies. When we're adults, we're down to about 70 different movements that we can make.

Well, and that sensitivity, I mean that's an interesting part of it, right? I mean you can imagine like the having that level of sensitivity as an adult would be brutal. You know, having a wide open nervous system like that and feeling all of that all the time non stop. But I guess, I mean, I guess you could, you would if you were working on it and if you are aware of it, you'd be able to develop.

Ways in which to work with that energy that's coming in you and moving it around and understanding how to let some of that stuff go. Because I think what you're saying, if I'm getting it right, is as a kid there's not a lot of differentiation between like what mom and dad are going through and what you go through because absolutely there's no, there's no mechanism of oh, that's, you know, Mom's upset, that doesn't have anything to do with me, or dad's disconnected and that doesn't have anything to do with me. It's like mom's upset. That's my experience as a child. That's just like she, she feels it, I feel it, and there's not a lot of differentiation. Is that correct?

That's 100% correct. And, and what? 10? Yes. When mom feels it, baby feels it. When dad feels it, baby feels. When mom and dad are struggling with each other, baby feels. As they begin moving into being about a year old or a little bit more part of what begins to change and just you spoke about this a little bit when you spoke about anxious attachment.

Is what begins to change is that we become incredibly egocentric. And.

What that means is we're beginning to try to put meaning to life. We're beginning to try to put meaning to sounds. We begin trying to put meaning to gestures. We.

Begin to try to put meaning to symbols. And at some point in there and, and when I say that, what I mean is like a letter is a symbol that means something to us. A sound is a, you know, we make some sound and if I use, I Make the sound cup. That means this thing that I can pick up if I'm. If I'm using a language other than English, a cup of, well, there'll be another sound. So we. The sounds that we make are actually fairly arbitrary. And so all language is. Is that a certain group of people who've decided that this certain sound means a certain thing. Well, we have to learn those symbols. So. So we're beginning to learn symbology. At some point. We get that we're assembled to our parents where we get that we have meaning to our parents. So. And we don't get that on the intellectual level. We get that on a somatic level. And it's part of why oftentimes you'll see if parents are, for instance, are having an argument or disagreement, a lot of person will either cry or sometimes they'll shut down. What they're feeling is that they are the argument, they are the disagreement versus that they're not able to stand back and watch the disagreement go, oh, those. You know, mom and dad are at it again. It's more like, I. I made this bad again.

Yeah. It's interesting because in the moments where Vienna and I have had heat, we'll call it, around our son, I remember. I remember one instance we were in the kitchen and we were. We were in a disagreement, and it was. It was heated, you know, like, we were. We weren't yelling, but we were definitely intense. And it was funny because I remember looking over at code because both of Vienna and I are both intense people.

That would be a true statement.

Yeah.

And. And so we're having. And I have no idea what we're talking about, but it was, you know, it was. It was intense. And I remember looking over at code, and he's just like, he, you know, he's sitting in his high chair and he's got food in front of him, and I think he had his fork in one hand, and he's just looking and he's watching both of us, and he's like, what is going on? And I remember in that moment, it kind of. I caught it, and I was like, okay, we're going to pause this conversation. We're not doing this in front of him, so we're going to pause this. And, yeah, I went over, connected with him and said, you know, I don't remember exactly what I said, but probably something along the lines of, like, you know, I love you, you're okay. That's not about you, you know, And I got her to just reconnect with him. And. And, you know, try and repair. But it was a very interesting thing because I could tell in that moment that he.

He was very much in. In some ways, I don't know. It's almost like there was this triangle in this mo. In that moment that I could visually see. And I could see this, like, heat and intensity being transferred between Vienna and I. And I could tell that he was a part of it and that he was experiencing it, even though it wasn't about him. And it wasn't. You know, it didn't have anything to do with him, but he was just sitting there experiencing it and was like, oh, this is a lot. Whatever's going on.

Well, yeah. And he. He would not understand what you were talking about, but what he would get is.

Is all of that energy was permeating his system. Huh? And he was. He was. His little system was trying to figure out.

Am I okay? And is the world okay? So we try to figure out whether the world's okay. And that's what we do in utero in the first year, year and a half in life. And what I mean by that is not. Not, is the world okay? Like, who's gonna, you know, get in a war with who. That's not that world, but little codes world that little beings world. And then the next thing they're trying to figure out is, am I okay?

One of the things that happens is in that egocentricity we feel when. And again, this is a feeling with little people, is we feel like we are the cause of everything.

That's how it's going through our system. It's not true. Like, God wasn't the cause of whatever heat was between you and Vienna, but that didn't matter to him. Yeah. What mattered to him was that that's what he was feeling. And we. We feel that on a very, very, very deep level, because we can't differentiate that yet. And.

Just a quick light story here, because you said we need to laugh every once in a while. As a very good friend of mine and I were out on a bicycle ride, started thundering and lightning. And we were fairly near to his house, so we went to his house and sort of. He had an indoor hot tub. So. And we got wet in the rain, and so we went and jumped in the hot tub. His little son came out, was just under 2 years old, and as. And he came out ready to jump into the hot tub. He'd stripped off all of his clothes, and. And he farted. And right when he farted, it thundered. And we Everyone, of course, laughed and joking around. Then maybe 30 seconds later, he farted again and, and it thundered again. And he truly thought that he was causing the thunder by his farts.

So for the next few years of his life, he was called we nicknamed Thunderbutt, but nice. But he links those kids link that kind of stuff together. And, and that's part of what creates a lot of the attachment issues around either anxiety or avoidance or the disorganized is what, what we little kids do is that they link things together that don't link together together, but they, because of where they're at, it gets linked together. So part of what happens like, and you talked, you, you asked a little bit ago about going through a tough time and coming out. Okay, that's in your story about what happened when you and Vienna got heated and you saw your son like feeling that energetically. Both of you went and made. It was like that.

That was a tough time for him. And both of you went over and reassured him that everything was okay.

So.

And what's interesting about that is had you not done that.

He, he would probably still be lingering with that at this point. My guess is that he's just like that. That's not even part of who he is because you guys are paired with him.

But had you not done that, it could have been a pretty bad, a pretty heavy duty setup.

Well, let's, let's go down that path then. And I have a feeling that we're gonna touch on this part. And then we're gonna have to pause and get into. We're gonna have to do a two parter is basically what I think is going to have to.

Okay, I'm good with that.

So let's talk about what interrupts attachment, because that's kind of what we've been talking about in a roundabout way. But let's talk about what interrupts it. And then we'll pause this conversation and then we'll have a whole other conversation where we talk about how do you actually repair your attachment style? Because that's a very common way of putting it. And we'll have a whole other segment where we go into how do you develop that secure attachment or a healthy attachment? Because I want to give that air to breathe. I want to give that time so that people can really get it and implement things in their life. And I don't want to rush that. So let's, let's leave off this conversation today with what interrupts attachment?

Okay, good question. Well, the general piece is going through a Tough time and not coming out. Okay. I mean that's generally, that's the big. That's the, you know, 30,000 foot view. What primarily interrupts attachment is there. There's three things that help create attachment that we ask for. And one is food slash nurturing. The other is touch slash contact. The other is movement, slash movement of energy for everybody. When we.

Want or need those things, we ask for those things.

Parent. When parents provide, parents slash caregivers provide those things in contact, in relationship, then that helps us get those things. We go through a hard time needing those things. We get them and we come out okay. So two things interrupt attachment. Two primary things. One is getting food, touch and movement without contact and without relationship. So that's one piece that interrupts our touch.

Yeah, Well, I think it'd be good to just give an example. So like getting food, touch and movement as a kid without contact. So. Or relationship. So an example is like if a mom was breastfeeding but sitting on her phone checked out. Is that an example?

That's an example. Or mom's talking on the phone. Sometimes it even happens if there's like three other little kids running around, you know, or. So that's one part of it. Another part of it is like even breastfeeding without making any contact, eye contact at all. I'm not saying that moms always have to be making eye contact with their baby while they're breastfeeding, but there's the movement back and forth between.

Seeing the world and looking down. Another is, would be somebody being restricted, like physically restricted. Like.

For instance, somebody who say was, and I'm like working with someone that has experienced this, that was born with their hips displaced and they were in.

Braces for the first nine months of their life. Another is are things like babies having colic and they can't keep food down. Another is a parent being dysregulated while they're giving, while they're feeding, or being so dysregulated they don't know they can't feed or they can't provide the nurture.

That those are the kinds of things that actually interrupt attachment. So when food, touch and movement get interrupted, like just for instance, like not getting it is one way. Another is not get it's getting it, but not getting it in contact, in the relationship. The other kinds of things that.

Interrupt attachment that are like just massive or what I call interjects or family rules. And many.

These can also promote attachment too. But there's four different kinds of family rules that come in there's spoken rules, there's unspoken rules. There are secret rules, and there are somatic rules or spoken messages.

Unspoken messages. Secret messages or somatic messages.

Those are. You can imagine what they are the spoken ones. People say, this is what we do. This, this is. You know, the other is.

The unspoken is people don't say them out loud. But if you ask, people sort of know, people will tell you the other one. The secret ones are you don't know what the rule is until you break it. So, for instance, like, let's see, let's say your son threw a meal on the floor and it was the first time. And it's like, if the rule was you never do that and you're a bad person if you do that, it's like, oh, my God. It doesn't mean that either you are being or are going to say it's okay to do that, but you're not. You're all gonna both kind of say, bummer, kiddo. You know? But he doesn't get in trouble for it. He gets redirected for it. The somatic rules are the ones that are the ones that really are damaging because they're the. They're the place where someone is saying something.

I love you, but they don't feel it, or I'm going to rush through this and I don't feel it.

Those. Those are the. Those kind of messages come in and.

They inhibit attachment. The other piece is that hugely inhibits attachment. That is where parents and caregivers do not separate personhood and behavior. And by that, what I mean is.

If, again, if the oatmeal gets thrown on the floor, it's. Instead of saying, hey, sweetie, I love you, and it's not okay to throw your oatmeal on the floor. The message is, you're a bad boy. You're a bad girl. Yeah.

What's wrong with you?

The interesting part about that?

Yeah, it's like, what's wrong with you? And so the interesting part about that is that attachment gets inhibited when we tell kids they're good boys and good girls, instead of, I love you, sweetie. And you did that. Well, we have to teach people to separate those things. It's like, I love you, sweetie, and it's not okay to throw your man on the floor. I love you, sweetie. And, wow, what a cool coloring thing he did. So we want to always work on that separation of personhood and behavior. Yeah.

I think I remember reading a study that was looking. It was childhood development study, and it was talking about reinforcing effort versus outcome is one of the best things that parents can do for children.

Absolutely.

And it's interesting because what I hear you talking about is when we reinforce effort versus the outcome and we can. That I like that separation of personhood and behavior. Right. Because I think.

I mean, just candidly, what I got a lot as a child was those two things were not separate. Right.

I heard a lot of like the.

What the hell's wrong with you? And why can't you get that right? And, and so there was a lot of conflation of if I do something wrong, I am wrong, which is the foundation of shame and a whole bunch of other stuff that, you know, is, is very, very damaging. And, you know, I think that one, I had to do a lot of, a lot of repair and a lot of work on that part because it impacted self esteem and self worth and value and all those types of pieces. And two, I've had to catch myself as a parent as well because I've noticed that part come up. You know, it's not like it just magically disappeared. It's also come up. And so I've had to pay attention to making sure that I don't conflate those two things. And so I had to learn how to, you know, with, with code, do exactly what you're talking, which is like, hey, bud, like, you're okay, but let's like, we don't do that, right? We don't, we don't operate in that way. We don't throw the stuff in the ground. We don't drive the truck into the walls. I don't know why I keep giving that example, but he has many trucks that he drives into my brand new walls.

So that's why you give the example.

It's a, it's a day, it's almost a daily occurrence where he'll look at me and he'll, he'll have a train or something like that, and he'll be like, is it, am I going to be okay if I drive this into the wall? Like, how are you going to respond? You know, he, he's definitely like me in the sense that he's a limit tester, he's a boundary tester, you know, and so he's trying to discover where the edges are, as all kids do. And I think in many ways, because of your framework, I've realized how often he's just testing. Am I okay? Is my world okay exactly if I do this?

Yes, yes, yes.

Is my world okay if I, you know, throw the Garbage onto the ground. Am I okay or am I bad or am I wrong or am I in trouble or, you know, whatever it is. And that has been revolutionary for me in a lot of ways as a parent, but also as. Just as an individual to separate those things of personhood and behavior.

Right.

Of, like, just because I got something wrong doesn't mean I am wrong.

Well, exactly. And when we're even talking with other adults who can be very sophisticated, it's like, it's important to still separate that. Like, if I need to say something really tough to Kimberly.

I'll come up and I'll just stand next to her, maybe put my hand around her waist.

And. And then say something because I'm giving the message. I'm here. I gotcha. I love you. And.

So we don't have to. I don't want people leaving this with. With infants. We do need to get really clear. With infants, it's like, sweetie, I love you. And.

You have to put on pants. You get a choice between the green and blue ones. Sweetie, I love you. And what a great job on your coloring that. Sweetie, I love you. And you put together that Lego set. Sweetie, I love you. And you didn't run into the wall. All of those. We can say that in a thousand different ways. What I want to also emphasize is that when we're talking to our friends, our confidants, our partners, we need to say that same thing. Because if we don't, that brings up their attachment issues. And then we're dealing. We're. We're having a. A having heat between us.

Instead be. Not because of what we're asking, but because we left out part. Right?

Yeah. Such a good reminder. I think this is probably a good place to pause. And we will. We'll do a part two where we'll talk about repair. You know, how do you repair from some of the stuff that caused interruptions to your attachment from childhood? And we'll talk about how do you begin to develop that healthy attachment in a secure way in your intimate relationships in round number two. So we'll focus on those two pieces on the next one. Dewey, where would you like people to go to learn more about you if they're just hearing about you for the first time?

Thank you. And thank you for this conversation. This was fabulous. Dewey. Freeman.org is the main place. Also.

I run the Gestaltic Quine Institute of the Rockies, so I do a lot of separate courses. There's a. If you just look up Gestaltic Wine Institute, you'll find me. I also do a fair amount of things where Ms. Kimberly, my Kimberly is all a therapist too and she and so we do things together. So you fight both me and her at the Colorado Ecotherapy Institute. Those are the three main places.

Wonderful. Well we'll have the links for those in the show notes. Dewey, thanks so much for joining me and I'll see you on Thursday.

See you on Thursday. I love you and I'll see you Thursday.

I love you too. And I'll see you Thursday and we'll go change some men's lives. And for everybody that's out there, this is probably a great episode to share with maybe your partner, a loved one, a friend that's interested in attachment and we'll do the follow up and dive into some of those other pieces that I'm sure you're going to be curious about. So until next time, this is Connor Beaton signing off.